Rogue Backstab Damage

[Cyrano]

Ok, everyone knows something is off on this. I've talked with a few rogues and we agreed that 490 was a very common damage for rogue BS at 60 during Kunark/Velious.

I was looking on Alla at the Ragebringer thread and found this:

"In my case, I was using a 10/21 main before epic and hitting right near 300 for backstabs at level 54. After my 15/25 epic, I've been hitting in the mid 400s and I doubt I've hit my max yet. " from Nov. 11, 2002.

This implies that he's not 60 but it's during SoL so perhaps he got some of the good AA's early on. I currently rarely break 400 with duelist on at 255 str w/ Avatar. I'm not saying it never happens but it's rare. I remember popping duelist on live and seeing backstabs >1000 constantly prior to Luclin.

Whatever the case, what do we need to do as a rogue community to get the ball rolling on fixing this? I for one loved playing a rogue so I could see the huge backstabs and brag about them.

[Kassel]

I agree,

Seems to be way more min dmg backstabs than i recall on live and max are very rare even on light blue low armor debuffed mobs. Backstab damage has been tweaked a few times since kunark came out, can we please revisit it.

Max damage BS at 60 with Ragebringer on live was 553, have not seen anything close to this number. The min is the norm. Will post logs when i get them.

[Daldaen]

All class AAs were level 59 requirement, all archetype AAs were level 55 requirement, and all general AAs were level 51 requirement.


Of the general AAs he had access to none increased damage dealt. So that isn't the reason he at a lower level is hitting those numbers.

[Kassel]

max bs damage with ragebringer should be 553, so far i have only hit 506 as a max and in the 500s a handfull of times.

Here is every backstab i have done since i got my RB, (check out my first kill target)

http://pastebin.com/KYNT8Ybs

901 backstabs, 7 are over 500, max is 506
120 is min backstab, i had 444 min backstab out of 901 - 49% min backstab damage, WAY TO HIGH. i am too lazy to pull out my assassinations from this log (58)

I am a buff whore, this log is max str. This log will have a few fights with my disc which will sway the log away from my argument.

[Kassel]

1 Source on 553 max RB backstab

RE: ratio owns for rogues, but.....
Quote
Reply
#Jun 07 2001 at 8:51 AMRating: Decent
Neq
16 posts
Actually if you had this and Ragebringer it would be better to put this in mainhand and ragebringer offhand, the better ratio results in more damage dealt out over time which more than makes up for the slightly smaller backstabs in my experience (no I don't have one of these, but I do have a Primal Velium Spear which is the same ratio, and I have used it in my mainhand since the day I got it and it's workin great so far). In fact it SEEMS that lots of smaller hits (and smaller backstabs) give you less aggro than the 553 backstabs with ragebringer give you. No research on that or anything tho, just a feeling after using various setups for a while

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=6093

[Shiftin]

If that's what you're parsing at there are huge errors vs kanras own research. I already tried to fight this fight and uthgaard told me to shut the fuck up in sebilis and that ragebringer tests were fine. Hopefully now that he's gone this can be actually fixed. The data below is against extremely high ac pog mobs, so should be our worst case scenario. Currently we are hitting for min almost twice as much as our worst case scenario should be.

Not working as intended.


This is all from the same log file that I posted in the patch notes. (late 2000)

http://i54.tinypic.com/29byf48.png

All of the BS hits in the whole log: http://pastebin.com/vRbiKkRL

Min hits only: http://pastebin.com/7zh355ak

56 out of 202 (27.7%) hits were for the min w/ Ragebringer against a high AC mob.

[Shiftin]

I have also not yet seen a proper 553.

[Baxter]

Never hit max either. I seem to recall a large thread in the past about this very same subject...

[Shiftin]

Click through my quote to find it.

[kanras]

First and most importantly, please, please read the original thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39977) if you haven't before. Hell, you probably should read it even if you participated in it, since we've all probably forgotten quite a bit.

Secondly, if someone's data seems a mile off compared to where you would expect it to be, it's a good idea to verify it. For example, when Kassel says he hit for min 49% of the time with his new Ragebringer, and you recall that you were hitting for min LESS THAN THAT WITH YOUR FUCKING 10 DMG SEBILITE CROAKING DIRK, maybe he got the maths wrong.

With assassinations removed (872 BS): http://pastebin.com/QE3n9dMN
Min hits (222 BS): http://pastebin.com/4mAESEnJ

222/872 = 25.4%

Regarding the max hit. You can't hit for max with just max STR. Remember that your character's max multiplier roll is calculated by STR + WPN_SKILL + ATK. Max STR w/ Ragebringer gives you 255 + 225 + 40 = 520. The level 60 rogue damage table's max multiplier roll of 570 is what gets you to that final 553 max backstab. So you need an additional 50 ATK from somewhere to even have a slim chance of hitting the max. If you have avatar on, then your character's max multiplier roll is 255 + 225 + 140 = 620. Since it clamps at 570, any roll over 570 is going to give you the max multiplier for that attack, so you'll have a (620 - 570)/620 = 8% chance for max multiplier each attack. But beyond your character's multiplier roll, there's also factoring in the ATK vs AC roll. You also need to roll a d20 on that in order to see the final 553. If you really want to see a 553, you should have somewhere around a 7% chance to land one on a successful hit if you have avatar and are fighting low greens.

[Cyrano]

Alright I'll start taking logs but no way is the min 22%.

Kanras do you think the current melee damage for a rogue is as close as we can possibly get it to live?

[Motec]

min damage is not affected by weapon damage kanras.

As a rogue on live for a very many years I do remember either 492 or 494, being very very common.

[Nizzarr]

First and most importantly, please, please read the original thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39977) if you haven't before. Hell, you probably should read it even if you participated in it, since we've all probably forgotten quite a bit.

Secondly, if someone's data seems a mile off compared to where you would expect it to be, it's a good idea to verify it. For example, when Kassel says he hit for min 49% of the time with his new Ragebringer, and you recall that you were hitting for min LESS THAN THAT WITH YOUR FUCKING 10 DMG SEBILITE CROAKING DIRK, maybe he got the maths wrong.

With assassinations removed (872 BS): http://pastebin.com/QE3n9dMN
Min hits (222 BS): http://pastebin.com/4mAESEnJ

222/872 = 25.4%

Regarding the max hit. You can't hit for max with just max STR. Remember that your character's max multiplier roll is calculated by STR + WPN_SKILL + ATK. Max STR w/ Ragebringer gives you 255 + 225 + 40 = 520. The level 60 rogue damage table's max multiplier roll of 570 is what gets you to that final 553 max backstab. So you need an additional 50 ATK from somewhere to even have a slim chance of hitting the max. If you have avatar on, then your character's max multiplier roll is 255 + 225 + 140 = 620. Since it clamps at 570, any roll over 570 is going to give you the max multiplier for that attack, so you'll have a (620 - 570)/620 = 8% chance for max multiplier each attack. But beyond your character's multiplier roll, there's also factoring in the ATK vs AC roll. You also need to roll a d20 on that in order to see the final 553. If you really want to see a 553, you should have somewhere around a 7% chance to land one on a successful hit if you have avatar and are fighting low greens.

If the only chance of hittin 553 is on low green and 7% chance, then this is all wrong.

I can recall rogues hitting raid mobs for 553 constantly, im sure you can dig up some tigole screenshot of him doubling 553 on raid/sky mob. hell, look up rogue backstab screenshot and youll see it happening on all kind of raid mobs.

You shouldnt need avatar to do so either.

[Shiftin]

No one would know the max backstab was 553 (as opposed to everyone) if you required avatar and greens to hit max. Think about how rarely that scenario would even arise. It doesn't pass a basic sanity check, especially when people clearly maxed on raid mobs.

[kanras]

min damage is not affected by weapon damage kanras.

I never said this. Nowhere was I even talking about min damage, I was (as was everyone else) talking about min BS frequency.

If the only chance of hittin 553 is on low green and 7% chance, then this is all wrong.

I never said this.

No one would know the max backstab was 553 (as opposed to everyone) if you required avatar and greens to hit max.

I never said this.

What I said (or at least meant to say) was that if you want to SS a 553, the easiest way to achieve it is by attacking greens. You can still get it on any other mob that you can roll d20s on in the ATK vs AC roll, but it's just going to be less frequent. edit:still need avatar

I can recall rogues hitting raid mobs for 553 constantly, im sure you can dig up some tigole screenshot of him doubling 553 on raid/sky mob. hell, look up rogue backstab screenshot and youll see it happening on all kind of raid mobs.

You shouldnt need avatar to do so either.

You do realize there's a graph of Tigole BS damage pre-primal just a few posts up, right? And it caps at 449? How does that jive with "rogues hitting for 553 constantly" and "you shouldn't need avatar to do so either"?

Kanras do you think the current melee damage for a rogue is as close as we can possibly get it to live?

Melee damage for all classes is at where it is because someone gave me a few hours worth of velious-era warrior logs (also some classic/velious raid logs) where they had been testing dps against the mist panther with and without avatar, with documented ATK values at each stage. This combined with years of people at thesteelwarrior.org and other places examining parses to figure out the variables involved (edit: in addition to help from some in this community, notably Treats). When considering rogues, the only additional variable is the BS damage multiplier, which has been well-established as 6.5 at 225 skill.

It's not perfect, for sure. But without substantially more time-relevant logs, or someone time-traveling to get me the velious db/source it's the best that can be done.

[Ravager]

Just want to throw in, I'm a 56 rogue and so far my largest backstab and coincidentally double backstab was a double 532. This was with Ragebringer and max strength, no avatar. It also happened in a duel death while key corpsing another rogue in sky and that person was sitting down at the time. I have yet to break 500 in any kind of mob fight, green or otherwise.