Bard dots last too long

[Lazortag]

While doing research about a bug I realized that Bard dots all last one tick too long (with the exception of Angstlich's Assonance which lasts ten ticks).

See this page: http://crys.org/everquest/spells/bardsongs.asp?minrank=1&maxrank=65

Chords of Dissonance Magic based area effect (caster) - DoT (2-17 damage every 6 sec for a total of 6-51 damage)

Denon's Disruptive Discord Magic based area effect (caster) - DoT (8-19 damage every 6 sec for a total of 24-57 damage), decrease AC (6-18)

Fufil's Curtailing Chant Magic based DoT (6-8 damage every 6 sec for a total of 18-24 damage), decrease MR (9-17)

Tuyen's Chant of Flame Fire based DoT (20-31 damage ever 6 sec for a total of 60-93 damage), decrease Fire Resist (11-17)

Tuyen's Chant of Frost Cold based DoT (24-31 damage every 6 sec for a total of 72-93 damage), decrease Cold Resist (13-17)

Denon's Bereavement Posion based area effect (caster) - DoT (30 damage every 6 sec for a total of 90 damage), decrease Magic Resist (15), stun

I know that this page is from later but I'm pretty sure Bard dots were never shortened at any point, and it agrees with the data from here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010611013116/http://everlore.com/magic/magic.asp?list=6&mode=list (you can click on each spell and find comments from 2000 or 1999)

and from here: http://web.archive.org/web/20001018041940/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Bard

Both of these pages say that the aforementioned dots last only 3 ticks.

The only dot I couldn't find any reliable info on was Selo's Chords of Cessation (since the sites I listed don't agree on it), but I believe it lasts for only 3 ticks on p99 already, which is accurate.

[Uthgaard]

Denon's Bereavement is supposed to be a 2 tick dot, that much I can confirm, but the rest are missing a duration, but the numbers add up to 3 ticks, including DB. Are you saying they're lasting for 4?

[Truth]

yea its definitely 4 messages per application

[Uthgaard]

Worked the same way on live, and still does. It's just the way the tick counter runs.

[Truth]

alluding to it should be 3 messages

[Uthgaard]

I understood what you meant. That's just how the tick timer works, and it's not a bug since it's always worked the same way on live.

[Truth]

if working as intended™ no need for thread?

[Lazortag]

I understood what you meant. That's just how the tick timer works, and it's not a bug since it's always worked the same way on live.

It's actually doing damage four times though, which it should not according to the sources (for example, with the lute Giegue has, Denon's Beravement does about 74 damage a tick for a total of 296 damage, whereas it should only do 222 damage).

[Uthgaard]

Right. That happens. I wasn't saying it was an error in the message, you actually get a fourth tick.

[Lazortag]

Are you saying that's not a bug? All the sources I linked seem to think it is a bug (just add up the numbers). See this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20011125033130/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1038

THIS SONG DOES WAY MORE DAMAGE, By Trilian soulwind (1/28/2001)

Than 20-24 per tick. One pulse of this song, with mm drums, will do 144 damage over 3 ticks, and lower CR by 27 points. It also stacks fine with Chant of Flame, and Curtailing chant, for a nice total of about 330hp of damage per 18 seconds (one pulse of each). Great for kiting, greater for root-dotting, and even BETTER instead of meleeing, if your group needs that extra damage. These songs will begin to do more damage as you level, as well, and the numbers I have above are PVP, not PVE, so it's even more damage to mobs.

ACTUAL DAMAGE, By Sakubi doobydoo (6/16/2001)

When cast upon my self the song does 78 damage for the full duration, and drops resist by 28

This would be impossible if the song was applied four times.

[Uthgaard]

Right. Those numbers won't add up to 4x the damage. It's not a guarantee, just something that happens often. Depending when the dot lands, if it's supposed to do 3 ticks, you may get 3 or 4 ticks. It's just the way the tick timer works, and depends when in the tick the dot is applied.

[Lazortag]

Alright, I believe you, but currently on the server it seems to always do 4 ticks without fail.

[Uthgaard]

Anyone who played a bard on live would know about the occasional 4th tick, and I'm sure there's plenty of documentation about how to take advantage of it somewhere, most likely in bard kiting guides.

P99's tick timer is more iffy than live, Blood claw dot always does 3 ticks and it's 2. There's an old thread about that one too. Kanras or Rogean would be the ones to look into if it's too reliably unreliable.

[Uthgaard]

Actually I bet there's a rounding error in duration formula 5 calculation.

[Truth]

IDK man if bards would know about that 4th tick shit I never rly heard of it and on live no one AE kited. I assumed 4 ticks as I've been seeing, everytime, literally, was normal. even rancars SZ bard guide from 2002 is like AE kiting is for retards use swarm/charm

[Truth]

http://www.notacult.com/forums/showthread.php?1129-Rancars-sullon-zek-bard-solo-guide.

09-08-2002 07:36 AM sullon zek bard guide by Rancar, EQEMU Coder Extraordinaire and LEAD SENIOR DEVELOPER OF MICRO$OFT VISUAL STUDIO AKA WHAT COMPILES EQEMU ON WIND0ZE

Bellow Kiting / Aoe Kiting:

These are a waste of your time. They are time consuming and will cause you nothing but suffering. I highly advise avoiding them, and if you use the techniques above these are all but useless anyways.

[Lubian]

As a bard who played from (Not Classic) Kunark to Underfoot, I've never experienced bard DOTs sometimes having an extra 4th tick.

On real EQ, songs would tick three times and almost always lasting <18 seconds: 0.1-5.9s before first tick, then 6s for subsequent ticks, for a total of three ticks. So, that's an average duration of 15 seconds, not 18 seconds as many are led to believe.

I think some people are getting confused, since you can twist FOUR songs (well, actually 5 if you don't mind debuffs dropping between ticks), but each song only ticks THREE times.

***

I'm not sure how the formula is on here, but many of the stock eqemu formulas don't match real EQ and seem to be much less accurate than lucy's formulas. The only reason I know this, is because I've worked with parsing the spell file and used eqemu's duration formula's as a rough (and bumpy) start.

It's hard to pinpoint where the error occurs, since even if a spell has the same tick duration, the type of spell can affect if it gains an extra tick. For example, the Promised Renewal cleric line, seems to say 3 ticks (even in the game description), but on real EQ it seems to gain an extra tick, while the bard songs say 3 ticks, but doesn't gain an extra tick. Take a look at the Lucy data and game description yourself, but you won't be able to confirm the inconsistency unless you have an active EQ account with a high level cleric and bard.

***

If there is an occasional random extra tick on eqemu, it's definitely something I've never experienced on the real EQ servers and is probably a bug or a limitation of how the tick system is coded.

[kanras]

As it turns out, all buffs durations have had an extra tic on the server for a very long time. Fixed, pending update.

[Lazortag]

As it turns out, all buffs durations have had an extra tic on the server for a very long time. Fixed, pending update.

Regular non-offensive bard buffs were working correctly before though, right? Currently most bard buffs last around 12 seconds, so if they lasted one tick less then Bards would get unclassically screwed over.

[Lubian]

As it turns out, all buffs durations have had an extra tic on the server for a very long time. Fixed, pending update.

The stock eqemu automatically adds a tick if the duration is not zero; I hope that's not the code you're talking about. :rolleyes:

[kanras]

Regular non-offensive bard buffs were working correctly before though, right? Currently most bard buffs last around 12 seconds, so if they lasted one tick less then Bards would get unclassically screwed over.

Nah, they were lasting 18-24 seconds on the server, where they should have been lasting 12-18 seconds.

The stock eqemu automatically adds a tick if the duration is not zero; I hope that's not the code you're talking about. :rolleyes:

It is.

[Lubian]

It is.(tl;dr at bottom)
Because one of my mains was a bard, I too noticed the same inconsistency that bard songs would last too long if the +1 was there with my spell parser. After removing the +1, I noticed spells on my other characters were a tick short on real EQ. This was very noticeable for Mezzes, but I would be significantly less likely to notice the inconsistency for other non-time-critical spells.

I honestly don't know what the solution is, but all I know is I ended up adding the +1 back shortly after removing it. Perhaps only non-bard songs should receive the +1 ticks? I don't really remember if or how I solved the issue for my parser.

The idiotic part is that in eqemu the +1 isn't explained why it exists. Shouldn't that be included in all of the duration formulas? Why does it exist outside of it? Was it some garbage quick fix that they added without thinking about the repercussions?

The EQ duration spell system is a real beast and it's hard to do any real testing unless you have an active EQ account (I talked about this a little at the 5th paragraph here (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=490109&postcount=17)). Furthermore, Some of the stock eqemu formulas are not accurate as they end up being correct for low durations, but for higher durations they're wrong (and this was only painfully obvious because I had my parser running), which makes testing even more difficult.

***

tl;dr: From my testing years ago; removing the +1 will fix some bard songs, but will make some of the other duration formulas a tick short.

[kanras]

This fix didn't get in this recent patch, still have more testing to do.

[kanras]

Fixed, pending update.

[Cast]

well what change did u make

[Albane]

Hopefully this will fix the fact that these songs only tick 2x on players in PvP.

As Lazor said, I also hope this doesn't mean bard buffs will last 9 seconds, which would really screw bards over.

[Lazortag]

I can twist 4 just fine. Read the thread. I posted a shit ton of evidence showing that you're wrong, and now you're just embarrassing yourself.

[Lazortag]

this is why you can twist a mr/pr/cr/dr DOT mix in later eq, if the last tic isnt working then you can only do three songs twisted, but since it has always bee 4 tics, you can do 4 songs,

This is incoherent. You can twist two songs per tick because the casting time for a song is 3 seconds, so two ticks ==> four songs. The Bard dots are special because they last 3 ticks, so you could twist up to 6 dots at once if you really wanted (7 if you include angstlich's assonance since it lasts 10 ticks). See my proof in this thread: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=569249#post569249

I feel like you have never played a bard, and have no clue what you are talking about based on your comments about this known fact. If you want to fuck up an entire class based off of your own ignorance, ego, and unwillingness to research before opening your mouth, then go ahead, otherwise, figure your shit out and fix it.

I really hope this wasn't directed at Kanras by the way.

[kanras]

Pending update, I added the extra tic back in for some spells (those without DOT/HOT components) based on what little info I could find about them. DOT/HOT durations are correct though.

[Lazortag]

Pending update, I added the extra tic back in for some spells (those without DOT/HOT components) based on what little info I could find about them. DOT/HOT durations are correct though.

I'm guessing the targeted bard mezzes were affected? Can you give a few examples of what else was affected?

[Kelgar]

The previous code was in line with classic/live eq, this one is not. Chants always got 4 tics in the past, and still do on live. The mechanics behind the tics are not so much the point as the fact that bards were built/balanced around the overall end effect. It wasn't broken before this, there was no need to fix it.

The chant's duration starts when the first server tic takes place after it is cast, thats at 0, then you get 3 more at 6/12/18, and this has always been the case.

Most bard songs have 18 second durations, NOT 12. You have to take into account clicking and unclicking songs during twisting, which makes a 4 song twist 12 seconds, plus click time, which puts you in the 14-15 second range, leaving no time to work a 5th song into the twist without a break in song coverage. Lazortag's reference sites can be used to show this.

http://web.archive.org/web/200012050418/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=1029
BARD SPELL DETAILS
Name: Hymn of Restoration
Level: 6
Mana: 0
Class: String, not required


Type: Group Duration Health Regeneration Increase
Max Duration: 18 seconds
Casting Time: Instant
Recast Time: Instant
Actual Effects: Duration: 3 ticks

Name: Crission's Pixie Strike
Level: 28
Mana: 0


Type: Single Target Crowd Control

Max Duration: 18 seconds
Casting Time: Instant
Recast Time: Instant

Actual Effects: Target: Mesmerise
Target: Lower MR


Name: Solon's Song of the Sirens
Level: 27
Mana: 0


Type: Single Target Random Duration Charm

Max Duration: 18 seconds


Name: Tuyen’s Chant of Frost
Level: 46
Mana: 0


Type: Cold Based Single Target Damage Over Time

Max Duration: 18 seconds

It should be noted that song durations are listed in tics, but they don't mean actual server tics, they mean increments of 6 seconds.
So a 4 tic song like Ancient Lullaby of Shadow:

http://crys.org/everquest/spells/bardsongs.asp?minrank=1&maxrank=65
60 Ancient: Lullaby Of Shadow
Magic based target Mez (24 sec stun, target levels 2-59), wipe Hate list

Listed as a 4 tic song on Lucy, is 24 seconds, which is actually spread out over the course of 5 server tics, 0/6/12/18/24, but is a 24 second (4tics at 6 seconds each.

Try logging onto a live account, or another emu server and click a song, watch the buff when it appears, it will have 18 seconds to start. Time a mez, or a charm. We are not dealing with 12 second duration songs, we are dealing with 18 second songs, or we were until the last patch.
When my mez/charm time goes from 18 seconds to 12, and my dots lose 25% of their damage, it becomes very apparent in a dungeon setting that my bard has been nerfed hard.

[mreynert]

I'm guessing the targeted bard mezzes were affected? Can you give a few examples of what else was affected?

Pretty sure this is true, as it stands now bard single target mez breaks incredibly early half the time, depending on how close to global server tick you get when landing it.

Last night in seb I was doing CC and was getting it breaking anywhere from 7-8 seconds after first landing to going for 12.

I'd mez a target, start twisting one, immediately do second song, and mez would sometimes break before 3rd song finished cast (though infrequently). Most of the time it'd be somewhere in the middle of 4th song's cast. Made keeping songs up while mezzing adds a pita and I definitely never remember it acting this way on live. It was very rare when it lasted long enough to get 3 other songs twisted in and use 4th to refresh mez before breaking.

[falkun]

I had a similar experience to mreynert last night in Disco. I've had to cut from twisting 4 + BOH (for 5 songs) down to twisting 3+BOH, especially if I spend any additional time selecting targets for mezzes.

Glad to hear its "Fixed, pending update"; just hoping the update is sooner rather than later for poor bards.

[Lazortag]

Hi, sorry but this bug is still happening. Chords of Dissonance, Denon's Disruptive Discord, and Denon's Bereavement are all lasting for 4 ticks. Selo's Chords of Cessation is lasting for 2 ticks, which is also not correct.

[Lazortag]

Hi, sorry but this bug is still happening. Chords of Dissonance, Denon's Disruptive Discord, and Denon's Bereavement are all lasting for 4 ticks. Selo's Chords of Cessation is lasting for 2 ticks, which is also not correct.

Bump.