Shaman DoTs Not Stacking Correctly

[Castle]

I noticed in PvP I could not stack Plague with Scourge or Ebolt with Venom of the Snake.

In classic you could stack Sicken, Affliction, Infectious Cloud, Scourge and Plague all at once, as well as Tainted Breath, Envenomed Breath, Venom of the Snake, and Envenomed Bolt. All the disease stacked with disease. All the poison stacked with poison. And all poison stacked with all disease. This was the beauty of being shaman. Please fix this.

The lines that didn't work this way were the necro-only DoTs and I think the druids DoTs.

I am not sure about necros and druids, but having played a shaman I am positive they all stacked.

PROOF
http://web.archive.org/web/20020305003108/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1175
MY OPINION, By Ugol (1/28/2001)

I would remove the bit about this spell being good for use in groups. It is in my experience of limited value in groups, because MOBs rarely last long enough for this to do full damage. Better to use the mem space for something else. I use the L39 poison and L49 poison together and they often lasts for full damage in a group, so they are fast enough.
Having said that, I would say that disease DOTs are great for soloing.

And now for my rant (feel free to ignore). I have grouped with shamans that disease MOBs when in a full group and the MOB dies two seconds later from nukes and melee attacks.Sheesh.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010724061058/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1141
THIS SPELL IS NOT USELESS AS OTHERS MAY TRY TO TELL YOU, By Warwulfe (1/28/2001)

In group fighting, it is most assuredly useless. Solo, it is invaluable. You need every edge you can get, especially when solo'ing Hill Giants and high hit-point count mobs. If nothing else, simply pull with the spell. Assuming it takes 30 seconds to get back, it is going to take another minute or two for you and your pet to finish it. 500+ damage, even in 2 minutes, is nothing to shake a stick at. Consider that Drifting Death, a 34 druid spell, does about 350 damage in a minute. This gets you 250-280 damage a minute for two minutes, and one cast. I'll stack it with a poison spell or three any day of the week. FYI - Scourge used to do nearly, if not more than 1000 damage over the course of 7 minutes. Now THAT is useless, especially to a Shaman, a class that does not need to kite to kill mobs effectively.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020113123314/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=1141&Page=2
WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

[DarthPeon]

You're wrong. Here is an original developer patch post stating so. These retards you quoted did not understand that their stronger dot was over writing the weaker one.



Uthgaard
03-07-2011, 08:32 AM
Working as intended.

What you had before, where every dot stacked with any other dot, was the bug.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-28855.html

And here are the patch notes from Sept 4th, 2002 - When they allowed multiple classes the ability to cast the same dot and exceed the 15 stack limit. However as mentioned in the patch notes - that still not to mean inferior versions of the same dot stacking.


We've made two changes to the way spells stack.

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Full patch notes below

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

[valithteezee]

Darthpeon shamans we're always an exception to the rule of dot stacking.

[DarthPeon]

Darthpeon shamans we're always an exception to the rule of dot stacking.

Woe the world and those special shaman who didn't get they were overwriting their dots. What part of this direct dev quote in regards to how all dots worked up to that point not clear?

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells.

Here is a druid documented example of how dots stacked back then. Two different lines stacking - Like plague and ebolt for a shaman...

http://web.archive.org/web/20000822125319/www.eqdruids.com/dot.htm

[Castle]

Here is a druid documented example of how dots stacked back then. Two different lines stacking - Like plague and ebolt for a shaman... From these sources we know how druid DoT lines work and know how necro DoT lines work. You haven't provided the evidence against Shaman DoTs stacking. On the contrary I have proven otherwise above.

As I said their DoTs weren't "lines." Lines of DoTs were only accessible by THAT class and their hybrid if one existed. Only Druids and Rangers had their lines; Necros and SKs had their lines; For Shamans... Beastlords AND Necros all had some of their DoTs. Necros got Venom of the Snake(39shm) and later Envenomed Bolt(49shm), and Scourge(34shm) and Plague(49shm) later... Weird.. they didn't get Tainted Breath(9shm) or Envenomed Breath(24shm), or Affliction(19shm) or Sicken(5shm), nor did they get Bane of Nife(56shm) or Pox(58shm) in Kunark. Makes no sense, unless they aren't preset "lines." Also Necros got their own unique poison/disease DoTs. Poison: Chilling Embrace (34) and Poiso Bolt (4) Disease: Disease Cloud (1).

Was Disease Cloud in a line of DoTs? No.
Was Chilling Embrace in a line of DoTs? No.
Was Poison Bolt in a line of DoTs? No.

Notice, poison and disease DoTs are seen as individual DoTs, not lines. Doesn't make sense if they are sharing a "line" of DoTs for their spells to be this way, unique low level DoTs, share some mid-hi level DoTs, then nothing after that.

Your quote on inferior and superior dots are used as terms to refer specifically to predefined lines of DoTs. The only examples given by the Devs were druid/necros. Sure Dev quotes have more weight, but taking a Dev quote out of context means nothing.

You're wrong. Here is an original developer patch post stating so. These retards you quoted did not understand that their stronger dot was over writing the weaker one. This is false in many ways.


Your DoT has worn off and your spell did not take hold messages were in in early 2001 when these sources posted.
You CAN tell the difference looking at mobs HP with 1 dot versus 2 dots even if there is no DoT-tic message
The story that follows shows that if the DoTs weren't stacking the mob couldn't have died. The guy is quoting exact numbers. Obviously he did his homework.

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB.] With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great! Sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He even calculated how much HP the mob had left. If EBreath didn't land they'd still be alive with 1/2 bub of HP left, instead of dead. Pretty clear he calculated it.

You have provided no clear evidence to counter these clear claims


I rest my case. Please fix this Devs.

[gloinz]

2001 = not classic
shamans are already powerhouses id be one if i could b a dwarf shaman

[Castle]

Jan 2001 = 1 month after Velious was released.

Check patch messages from day 1 through Velious. There is nothing mentioned about spell stacking changing for Shaman DoTs. So we must assume Shaman DoT stacking remained the same. To believe otherwise we would need a reason. No patch message and no other archived posts = no dice.

In other words, FRAPs or it didn't happen.

[Doors]

Shamans should still be able to stack a disease and a poison dot. That is straight out of the Kunark strategy guide.

[Uthgaard]

You have provided no clear evidence to counter these clear claims
[/list]

The evidence was provided months ago, and your conclusion that shaman dots are not lines is absurd. They have a poison line and a disease line. Even your examples of the necro lines are incorrect. Your inability to operate the search function on the forums, or comprehend the topic doesn't require everyone else to rehash the discussion to satisfy your bellyaching.

[Castle]

Shamans should still be able to stack a disease and a poison dot. That is straight out of the Kunark strategy guide. I think you missed it. I would be surprised if the Prima guide which was wildly inaccurate got anything right :D

The evidence was provided months ago, and your conclusion that shaman dots are not lines is absurd. Way to put up a link to proof bro.. wait... shit, where'd that thing go?

Uthgaard, a search revealed a few quotes of Devs promising to nerf DoTs and discussing them, but no hard evidence of it being classic. No quotes, no links, nada. You got a link? All I found is a general consensus druid DoTs shouldn't stack in the same line... and apparently shamans got swept into that as well, even though there is clear proof this was not the case in classic.

[Uthgaard]

Darthpeon already gave you the link. Your failure to read it is no one's problem but your own.

[Darwoth]

in all the time i played eq i never once had a shaman stack dots from the same line on me, so either your full of shit or every shaman on RZ and SZ from launch through velious were to stupid to stack dots which would have prevented me from curing.

[Castle]

http://theykid.com/wp-content/thumbnails/3177191179_6f4e33a61a.jpg Haha you got me man. That's a good one. Really though I will await your evidence. Ready when you are.

Just to clarify with people reading Uthgaard said
What you had before, where every dot stacked with any other dot, was the bug. In regards to what the EQ devs had said.. Let's look for that information where all DoTs were always stacking...

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html
We've made two changes to the way spells stack.

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.) Yep... that's it. Read it though a number of times. He gives necros and their blood line as an example. That's it. Doesn't mention shamans or their DoTs once. I think I have clearly proven shamans don't have 2 "lines" of DoTs. They don't follow the pattern that every normal line of DoTs does. This is your evidence? With all due respect, it's laughable. I have 3 independent sources from 2001, one talking in great detail, about stacking these DoTs. There is no patch message anything changed and as it says here necro fire DoTs "...will still not stack..." meaning they weren't stacking at the point of this message. Nothing changed except you could not stack the exact same DoTs. It doesn't get any clearer than this. The only way to interpret it otherwise is to have a pro-dru/nec bias or anti-sham bias.

So (1) multiple sources some with very clear accounts/calculations (that have no reason to lie) are recorded as saying the DoTs stacked, (2) there are no replies contradicting these sources by any of the other shamans during that time period (who also have no reason to lie), (3) there is no patch message saying that DoTs always stacked, and (4) the only evidence provided mentions nothing of Shaman DoTs...

You only have one conclusion. Shaman DoTs always have stacked.

Darwoth.. As Uthgaard says...
No one posted a single thing about the dots stacking when they shouldn't have. No one posts about anything that gives them an advantage. But when it's a disadvantage, the forums get spammed with 'but I remember this!' I do remember, but there are 3 independent unbiased sources versus this one semi-related patch message that doesn't address Shaman DoTs in any clear way.

Also Darwoth, people always used their highest level DoTs, so for most people it seemed to make more sense to go Plague/EBolt and once u got those 2 on you might as well nuke and heal, or at least that was the mindset I ran into with other shaman. 3 seemed overkill/waste of mana.

[Darwoth]

if i was a shaman and was able to stack dots every fight would open with lower end ones before the big dots to prevent people from curing them off immediately which is how the game ended up, i have to think at least a few of the shamans i encountered would of had the same idea.

[Castle]

Before I get to my haymaker punch of evidence let me address Darworth...

if i was a shaman and was able to stack dots every fight would open with lower end ones before the big dots to prevent people from curing them off immediately which is how the game ended up, i have to think at least a few of the shamans i encountered would of had the same ideaThe longer you put off landing your heavy dmg DoTs the longer your opponent lives to heal themselves or kill you. It's ideal to put the lower level ones first, but no situation is ideal. I tried this when I PvP'd but it's best to rely on slam/pet to interrupt cures and just put on your heavy DoTs. Besides if I go disease and poison you have to have 2 cure different pots/spells ready. And if you cure more counters than needed it doesn't carry over to my disease counters being cured, whereas 2 poison DoTs it will carry over to cancel out the next one.

And now my mofrackin' haymaker of evidence

http://web.archive.org/web/20020305002513/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1184
STACKING, By Falkar the everwalker (1/28/2001)

Yes, this spell will stack with others. All DOT spells of the same type do stack. Can it get any clearer?

From the same link...
DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off, but along with these messages came a nerf. DOTS require that the subject be still in order to have the full effect. So dont be fooled by old messages about casting this awesome dot and then running around with SOW or something. You wont get the damage out of this spell unless the critter is holding still, and this includes when they start walking away from you. Make sure you cast this spell toward the beginning and dont recast it like I did. ID Use Blind or the Frosty spell to pull a critter, and then once you have it in front of you, this spell casts fast enough to get it in between punches. So everyone in the other posts who said they were stacking all received messages when DoTs wore off meaning if they overwrote the DoT they would know. This was the same time you got "did not take hold" message as well. This means whether they casted a higher or lower level spell they'd get a "wore off" or "did not take hold" message. It's highly unlikely all of these people could be that absentminded to grind 100s and 100s of mobs (with slow classic xp) and not notice these messages they receive every fight...

http://web.archive.org/web/20020811061322/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1114


ALL SHAMAN DOTS DO STACK
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2002i have a lvl 20 shaman and my main is a 54 cleric. i have tried stacking all my dots onto myslef and the DO stack on myself other players and mobs. it is great at this lvl to stack all 3 of your dis dots you get. Hmmm... pretty clear.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020811061322/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1114


SPELL STACKING
Posted: Friday, March 01, 2002All Shaman spells Stack. Period. so in theory, Sickness, Tainted Breath, Affliction, Evenomed Breath,Scourge,Venom of the Snake,Evenomed Bolt, Plauge,Bane of Nife,and Pox of Bertoxxulous can ALL BE ON ONE MOB AT THE SAME TIME. every spell wills tack, poison, disease, AE, WHATEVER. try stuff before you post stuff. I can guarantee you you have not played a shaman to 19, or have not tried stacking 3 DoTs at ONCE!!! Sorry, got a little hot headed... but I hate it when people say things they dont know, have not tried, and care not to try. Lol this guy is experiencing exactly what I am. People just don't know and because they played a dru, nec, enc, etc... they assume..

http://web.archive.org/web/20020811061322/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1114
BLAH
Posted: Friday, March 15, 2002All of your different poison DoTs will stack as well as all of your different disease DoTs. But if you're grouped with another shaman both of your tainted breath's won't stack. Clear as day. Uthgaard, thoughts?

http://media.nowpublic.net/images//f1/d/f1dde5effc2cfd97cdb2f0cd6b1efdad.jpgWho's hungry?

[Uthgaard]

By the time 2002 rolls around you'll be right. The server isn't at 2002. Shamans aren't one glowing exemption from the spell stacking rules. Trying to separate them from necros is even more laughable, as they don't even diverge from possessing a small set of necro spells until later levels.

Terribly sorry if you missed the memo that the date of the evidence is relevant. Or this old post (I know you saw it, because you lopped off the last 9/10 of it that you didn't want to acknowledge, particularly the underlined part)


No one posted a single thing about the dots stacking when they shouldn't have. No one posts about anything that gives them an advantage. But when it's a disadvantage, the forums get spammed with 'but I remember this!'

We don't just make changes to entire systems willy nilly. While some people are content to search the forums for the one quote from the mouth-breathing incompetent who posted something that contradicts what we did (and there's no shortage of conflicting information), we do our homework beforehand and look at all available sources to get the whole picture.

Imagine if someone 10 years from now wanted to determine the factual basis of which P99 forum troll had an emasculation complex, which one was a whore, which one was a cumguzzler and who really loved Glitch. You'll find points on all sides, finding conflicting information is a common occurrence in research, and 90% of development on p99 is research. The truth to one or another has to be weighed and evaluated.

Point being, if there are specific bugs, we'll hear them. But none of us want to sift through 10 pages of angsty anecdotes to find it.

[gloinz]

Imagine if someone 10 years from now wanted to determine the factual basis of which P99 forum troll had an emasculation complex, which one was a whore, which one was a cumguzzler and who really loved Glitch. You'll find points on all sides, finding conflicting information is a common occurrence in research, and 90% of development on p99 is research. The truth to one or another has to be weighed and evaluated


lol

[Smedy]

I like uthgaard, he should consider gm for the red99, he has the iron fist of justice

[Castle]

By the time 2002 rolls around you'll be right. The server isn't at 2002. Shamans aren't one glowing exemption from the spell stacking rules.
False. I am not arguing that 2 shamans casting the same DoT should stack. That was 2002 as is clearly stated. I am saying the earliest reports of whether or not each shaman DoT could stack with the other are a resounding YES... namely that...

Sickness, Tainted Breath, Affliction, Evenomed Breath,Scourge,Venom of the Snake,Evenomed Bolt, Plauge,Bane of Nife,and Pox of Bertoxxulous can ALL BE ON ONE MOB AT THE SAME TIME. every spell wills tack, poison, disease, AE, WHATEVER. try stuff before you post stuff. I can guarantee you you have not played a shaman to 19, or have not tried stacking 3 DoTs at ONCE!!!
..conclusively prove they did. You provide no conflicting evidence in regards to Shamans.


Trying to separate them from necros is even more laughable, as they don't even diverge from possessing a small set of necro spells until later levels. False again. Your lack of EQ knowledge is disturbing. Shaman level 5 disease (sicken), Level 9 poison (tainted breath), level 19 disease (affliction) level 24 poison (envenomed breath) are all unique to Shamans. It's only some of the mid-level ones necros share. It's obviously not a line if you only get the middle section.

What line is the unique level 4 necro poison apart of?
What line is the unique level 1 necro dis apart of?
etc. etc. etc. They are individual spells not in a line.

Here's a good one... Infectious Cloud, the only AE DoT 1-60 in vanilla-velious, both Shaman and Necro get it. What line is it apart of? That's right, none. It's unique.


Terribly sorry if you missed the memo that the date of the evidence is relevant. Or this old post (I know you saw it, because you lopped off the last 9/10 of it that you didn't want to acknowledge, particularly the underlined part) Your words don't really concern me with the veracity of this issue, but you're quoting yourself to prove your point?.... Lolz.

While some people are content to search the forums for the one quote from the mouth-breathing incompetent who posted something that contradicts what we did (and there's no shortage of conflicting information), we do our homework beforehand and look at all available sources to get the whole picture.

Let me summarize what you're saying there

Summary of Uthgaard's position: We have our sources, but we won't share them with you, but trust us. We are right. There are contradictions (that will not be named or linked), but we have 1 vague quote we are resting on.

What homework? You haven't posted anything except this poor excuse for evidence which does not address shamans. I provide clear evidence Shaman DoTs stacked poison with poison, disease with disease, before 2002.

The evidence is clear. You say can say it's "balance," but you can't argue it's classic.

PS
I like uthgaard, he should consider gm for the red99, he has the iron fist of justice More like the iron skull of thickness. Someone too proud to admit they are wrong, or too stupid to see they are wrong, are unfit to be a GM. We will see if Uthgaard comes around to agree with the evidence or not; and if he will provide his own, or not.

[valithteezee]

Shamans aren't one glowing exemption from the spell stacking rules...

With all due respect, Yes they are. I'm not trying to be a troll and I appreciate all the work you have done for the community but evidence clearly paints a different picture. The entire reason of this post is to shed light on the fact that shamans ARE DIFFERENT then other DOT classes.

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Again, nothing was mentioned of shamans in the above quote but leaves the reader to ASSUME that all dot classes are lumped into this change- thus your stance on the issue. However, Several posts confirm that in reality this was not the case for the shaman. Whether this was an unintended change or deliberate from the development teams perspective, this fact remains this is how it worked.

[Castle]

Another piece of convincing evidence. Earliest page is archived Jun 7th 2002. Only speaks about Vanilla through Velious. No luclin.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020607192806/http://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html

What spells should I use in PvP?


Your spell load out depends on your opponent, but you should always have at least one escape spell memmed. Spirit of Cheetah (SoW if you’re below 24) and Gate are reccomended. I have both memmed when I’m traveling or paranoid.

If there are people out looking for you, it should be assumed they are prepared with generic magic/fire/cold resistances. When attacking prepared opponents, go with disease debuffs, disease spells and direct damage. If they are resisting the disease spell, keep slamming away at the disease debuff – it’s fast casting and will eventually stick on even the most resistant players. Below level 40, few players have good poison resist, so you may want to give poison a shot as well. At level 50, I like to stack two disease dots on them (scourge + plague).

The evidence is overwhelming.

[gloinz]

Another piece of convincing evidence. Earliest page is archived Jun 7th 2002. Only speaks about Vanilla through Velious. No luclin.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020607192806/http://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html


The evidence is overwhelming.

not admissible in court
Jun 7th 2002.

[Castle]

not admissible in court
Jun 7th 2002.

Actually bro.. If it was created on or after June 7th 2002, it would make my argument even stronger (though I don't know if this is possible.)

Imagine...
July 24, 2002 - Patch - Necro dots still won't stack inferior and superior from the same line
June 7, 2002 - BAM Shaman DoTs of the same resist-check be stackin'. Obviously... this would prove to further emphasize Shamans were doing it all along and nothing was changed on 2002 in regards to Shamans if it was changed for Necros. Once again he said "still not stack" so it meant the necros never stacked. Not that it matters because the server will only go through Velious... what the guide goes through - Vanilla through Velious, levels 1-60. Obviously, it was written during Velious, prior to the July 24, 2002 patch.

This is me victory dancing to dubstep, brah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO-jKksQkM

Honestly, the evidence is overwhelming, another nail in the coffin is nice, but I think the point has been belabored to the point of over-saturation. To deny all Shaman DoTs didn't stack is just bias, or something else talking.

[melkezidek]

Dot Stacking of the same type did not happen untill after SOV came out. Everything you are listing is likely from that time line.

However I do remember shamans having 1 spell that was considered unique and did stack giving them 1 extra dot.

[Castle]

Melkezidek, gonna have to put up some proof on that because Uthgaard said that

'but I remember this!' Is not good enough. I can give plenty of anecdotes too *shrug*

[tradebot]

I leveled up my shaman on p99 stacking Affliction+Scourge+Poison DoT.

[Darwoth]

changing my mind on this, one of the better shamans (yes, classic era) on RZ told me this........

Most of the shaman on RZ/SZ were trash. I use to drop plague and scourge on people all the time because ebolt was resisted all the time.

so if he says they stacked then they did, i just never ran into anyone doing it.

[Cwall]

anecdote of an anecdote

must be legit cause they cancel each other out

[Castle]

anecdote of an anecdote

must be legit cause they cancel each other out

Anecdote (based on memory 12 years after the fact by biased people)
versus
Anecdote (written down during the period as it was going on by unbiased people)

Yep, I think we know which one is more legit :)

[DarthPeon]

Actually bro.. If it was created on or after June 7th 2002, it would make my argument even stronger (though I don't know if this is possible.)

Imagine...
July 24, 2002 - Patch - Necro dots still won't stack inferior and superior from the same line
June 7, 2002 - BAM Shaman DoTs of the same resist-check be stackin'. Obviously... this would prove to further emphasize Shamans were doing it all along and nothing was changed on 2002 in regards to Shamans if it was changed for Necros. Once again he said "still not stack" so it meant the necros never stacked. Not that it matters because the server will only go through Velious... what the guide goes through - Vanilla through Velious, levels 1-60. Obviously, it was written during Velious, prior to the July 24, 2002 patch.

This is me victory dancing to dubstep, brah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO-jKksQkM

Honestly, the evidence is overwhelming, another nail in the coffin is nice, but I think the point has been belabored to the point of over-saturation. To deny all Shaman DoTs didn't stack is just bias, or something else talking.

While you provide decent evidence of Blart suggesting shaman dot stacking in a post circa 2002 that does not negate the fact that these same exact spells did not stack when a necro cast them. The spell IDs are the same in the code, yet coming out of the shaman they somehow magically stack as opposed to coming out of the Necro? This matter can be resolved by current devs with access to spell files showing if this feature can be custom flipped on and off on the same Spell ID - without creating two separate Plague spells (for example) on a Necro and Shaman. Separate versions of the spells in question did not exist.

Further more, dot messages wearing off did not come until much later and that means people were unaware their higher level dots were over writing their lower level dots, they assumed as much because both spells landed. Yes there could very well be that many bad players that you quoted out of the ~500k that ended up playing.

Here is something for you to consider since the focus has shifted to a notable shaman documenting that they stacked. Even a good player highly versed in their class can be wrong:

Charisma remained misunderstood for years after classic release. During the era great enchanters, bards (Zamtil and company, Thott) - players that accomplished many more things on a pve server for optimal raid performance and min-maxing pve encounters in general (in relation to Blart and his lack of number crunching accomplishments) claimed that more charisma equated to longer charms. These players were in the top raiding guilds like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife. Years later data showed that it only affects the initial charm resist check and has no bearing on charm duration, and still today it is a misunderstood concept.

There are many more examples of things like this prevalent throughout eq history, but i digress.

So this is where we stand:

1) We have an official everquest dev post stating inferior dots do not stack with superior dots (the word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point).

2) We are in agreement that necro/druid dots of the same line do not stack.

3) And I hope we are in agreement that even notable players or experts throughout history can be at wrong, regardless of the subject.

If the same spell ID is used for two separate classes, I predict any change to the spell would immediately show up on both classes due to the way the code works. If so, this negates the fact that Necros could not stack but yet shaman somehow could. Or else separate spell IDs of the same exact would have been required - essentially creating two new spells of the same name.

I am for classic on this issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers

[Dfn]

All Shaman DoTs stacked. Confirmed.

[Castle]

(1)While you provide decent evidence of Blart suggesting shaman dot stacking in a post circa 2002 that (2)does not negate the fact that these same exact spells did not stack when a necro cast them. The spell IDs are the same in the code, yet coming out of the shaman they somehow magically stack as opposed to coming out of the Necro? This matter can be resolved by current devs with access to spell files showing if this feature can be custom flipped on and off on the same Spell ID - without creating two separate Plague spells (for example) on a Necro and Shaman. Separate versions of the spells in question did not exist.

(1) The earliest copy of the post is from 2002, but clearly shows it is no later than mid 2001 being all the info exclusively 1-60/Vanilla-Velious content. We don't have original autographs of many documents, but the content of manuscripts are the most accurate way to predict an accurate date of the original autograph. Clearly this was Pre-Luclin.

(2)This is untrue. Necros using Shaman DoTs stacked. It wasn't based on class, it was based on the DoT. Necros could stack Venom of the Snake and Ebolt just like Shamans could. There was no magic modifier that Shamans had, simply their DoTs were coded to stack. Beastlords could stack em and so could Necros. If you disagree, provide proof.

Further more, dot messages wearing off did not come until much later and that means people were unaware their higher level dots were over writing their lower level dots, they assumed as much because both spells landed. Yes there could very well be that many bad players that you quoted out of the ~500k that ended up playing. False. See quote.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020305002513/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1184
DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off, but along with these messages came a nerf. DOTS require that the subject be still in order to have the full effect.

Moving on...


1) We have an official everquest dev post stating inferior dots do not stack with superior dots (the word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point).

2) We are in agreement that necro/druid dots of the same line do not stack.

3) And I hope we are in agreement that even notable players or experts throughout history can be at wrong, regardless of the subject.

1) This was in relation to "lines" of DoTs. Shaman DoTs are not mentioned. Shamans have been logically proven to not have lines. One vague quote cannot disprove mounds of unbiased evidence.

2)Yes, the lines specific to their class did not stack (ie: multiple from same "line")

3) See above where wearing off messages are in. People would clearly see. You fight 100 mobs to get 1 level, 1000ish to get 10 from 39-50. If what you're saying is true, 1,000 times their first DoT wore off and they got a message right when their other one landed, and they didn't notice?? It's not only how many people say this is true, but how little evidence can be found against this. This troll shammy was legit and one guy from Casters Realm posted detailed HP amounts and calculated their HP based on his DoTs. Obviously they knew their stuff. CHA is an entirely different subject because you cannot see the effects of things, so obviously without a parser or a packet sniffer you simple cannot really tell what CHA is doing. "Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off." Anyone can see that and put 2 and 2 together. To compare CHA with this is apples and oranges, my friend.


If the same spell ID is used for two separate classes, I predict any change to the spell would immediately show up on both classes due to the way the code works. If so, this negates the fact that Necros could not stack but yet shaman somehow could. Or else separate spell IDs of the same exact would have been required - essentially creating two new spells of the same name.
It is spell specific, not class specific. Not to sound like a broken record because I said it earlier, but whether a SHM, BST, or NEC cast a spell from the Shamans pool of spells, it would stack. There wasn't some special class modifier, that's not how it worked.


I am for classic on this issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
Agree. Are you starting to see that this was classic?

[valithteezee]

Castle has put in a lot of work for this cause and pretty much derailed any conflicting information. I hope in the next major patch we can start to see some of these changes implemented.

[Castle]

On the Beta server I tested and validated the numbers from a source I linked. It is shockingly accurate. I show through simple observation at the end he was clearly stacking DoTs, or he would have had different numbers. In other words, INC Haymaker 2.0.. 1.0 was already a knockout, 2.0 is just for show.

web.archive.org/web/20020113123314/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=1141&Page=2


WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

I tested these numbers and here is what I found.

First, I checked the spell damage. His spell damage numbers are exact except you can tell he rounded the 1s place so his numbers above have 0s (ex: 219=220.)

Secondly, and more importantly I tested (on the Beta server) his exact strategy on the exact mobs he camped. I had to wait between DoTs because they aren't stacking correctly currently, so it took longer, but damage was the same.

Test 1 -- Target: Balen Kalgun -- Location: BB Docks
Pull with Scourge. Root. With with VoS. Waited for VoS to wear off. Hit with Ebreath. Waited for Ebreath to wear off. His with Final VoS. Mob just barely died I think on the last tic of VoS. Exactly as he predicted.
Pictures one (http://i43.tinypic.com/aw2ogn.jpg), two (http://oi40.tinypic.com/242hni9.jpg), three (http://i40.tinypic.com/242hni9.jpg) & four (http://i41.tinypic.com/2il0niq.jpg)

Test 2 -- Target: Thar Kelgand -- Location: BB Docks
Same strategy as above. Same result as above. This dude knew his stuff. Changed UI to make it clearer and got it in 2 screenshots: one (http://i43.tinypic.com/rt2lx5.jpg) & two (http://i42.tinypic.com/1zzn0o.jpg)

Test 3: -- Target: Magnus Boran -- Location: BB Docks
Since he said "With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg" I tested it without EB to see how much the mob had left. 8% and it took 2 DDs for 82 dmg (162dmg) to kill the mob... The guy was dead on.
Pictures: one (http://i39.tinypic.com/m2alv.jpg) & two (http://i44.tinypic.com/5d70x3.jpg)

Proof is in the pudding lads. On my 2nd 80dmg blast to finish off the final 150 dmg this guy mentions.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2z5nklw.jpg

If you're a little slow you may be thinking at this point "so what, what does that prove besides he knew their HP?" Well, he only knew their HP because he stacked the DoTs. If the EBreath didn't stack with VoS the mobs would still have 150hp left whether he decided to cast it while VoS was active or to not cast it all. However, as he states, that was not the case. The mobs only had 150hp left if he didn't stack Ebreath with VoS. In classic and even now IIRC these mobs were always level 35, they always spawned with the same hp; it's the perfect constant for an experiment like this.

In my test I used the spells he said and they had the same result, except I couldn't stack them because the Devs haven't fixed it yet. He's obviously stacking multiple poison DoTs according to his description. He makes no mention of waiting inbetween Scourge and VoS, or VoS and Ebreath, only to wait 42 seconds for the 2nd VoS (which is how long the 1st VoS takes to run its course.) Once again if that Ebreath didn't stack.. there'd still be about 150hp left on the mobs. Life mob versus dead mob = pretty easy to discern the difference, bros.

It's quite simple, but I recommend slow people read that again. There you have it, another proof justified.

It's overwhelmingly clear. When you fixing this, Devs?

[DarthPeon]

Castle has put in a lot of work for this cause and pretty much derailed any conflicting information. I hope in the next major patch we can start to see some of these changes implemented.

Castle has derailed Jack and Shit, not to be mistaken for Jackshit which actually stacks.

Are you starting to see that this was classic?

No, but I am getting bored with your creative interpretations of Everquest developer statements, what does or does not constitute a "line", and your slew of inexperienced posts as evidence. At this point you are merely putting spin on my statements and backtracking with implied things such as "Necro dots also stacked toooooo, I really mean it." - After I showed you that they share the same spell ID and the Necro casts of those same spells never stacked.



DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off...

False. See above quote.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020305002513/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1184

I saw the quote, and below you will find the exact date this feature went in. You cited a retard and have been touting similar examples of evidence as the gospel to prove the dot stacked, congratulations. If Smedy was here, he would most certainly Praise Jesus.

Patch Date 4/17/2001 03:00 AM

- You will now see how much damage your character has taken when he is hit by a spell that causes instant damage (DOT damage is not reported).

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html

DoT information in regards to when it wore off was simply not reported correctly until less than a month prior to PoP release.

Patch Date 9/16/2002

- The "Your XXX Spell Has Worn Off" messages for DoT spells will now go
to the right character.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

And still at this point there was zero information about how much damage a dot did. Good players relied on counting letters in NPC names and similar variations to calculate damage needed prior to information being available.

Finally - DoT reporting became fully functional as you know it today.

Patch Date 6/11/2003

- Reporting Damage Over Time - Damage over Time (DoT) will now be reported to the caster every time it does damage. These messages can be filtered in the Options window.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2003-1.html

The progression of patch notes above details the inexperience of your sources - thus undermining your challenge to the most important patch note outlining the only definitive dot stacking rule we have and specifically stating

Patch Date Sept 4th, 2002

An example was given to show that on this date in Luclin, same dots began to stack by multiple casters - with the addendum below.

"However Inferior dots still do not stack with superior dots."

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

The word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point. (Valithteezee) Read the exact wording from the notes and let it sink in.


Moving on...

1) This was in relation to "lines" of DoTs. Shaman DoTs are not mentioned. Shamans have been logically proven to not have lines. One vague quote cannot disprove mounds of unbiased evidence.

2)Yes, the lines specific to their class did not stack (ie: multiple from same "line")

3) See above where wearing off messages are in. People would clearly see. You fight 100 mobs to get 1 level, 1000ish to get 10 from 39-50. If what you're saying is true, 1,000 times their first DoT wore off and they got a message right when their other one landed, and they didn't notice?? It's not only how many people say this is true, but how little evidence can be found against this. This troll shammy was legit and one guy from Casters Realm posted detailed HP amounts and calculated their HP based on his DoTs. Obviously they knew their stuff. CHA is an entirely different subject because you cannot see the effects of things, so obviously without a parser or a packet sniffer you simple cannot really tell what CHA is doing. "Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off." Anyone can see that and put 2 and 2 together. To compare CHA with this is apples and oranges, my friend.

It is spell specific, not class specific. Not to sound like a broken record because I said it earlier, but whether a SHM, BST, or NEC cast a spell from the Shamans pool of spells, it would stack. There wasn't some special class modifier, that's not how it worked.

1) More creative interpretation at play and bullshit about what constitutes a line and what does not. You would still take issue with the original devs even if they included every dot spell in the spell files and spelled it out for you.

"This does not allow for inferior DoT spells to stack along with superior spells." -Original EQ dev

2) See number one. If you didn't have a creative interpretation for "lines" of spells and how they apply to the patch notes this would not be an issue.

3) Even by your generous mid 2001 standards, Blart's post is written about classic everquest pvp over 5 months after velious release. Blart attempted to recreate a classic guide about an era few understood how stuff exactly worked. He was certainly not receiving any feedback in response to his dot casts from the server and neither were his opponents. Given the nature of an item loot pvp server, you can deduct that he did not have the luxury to ask for damage parses and critical feedback while he stole some kid's shoes. The man is not infallible and his memory may have failed him.

Blart even states in his post:

"This is a draft. Any corrections would be greatly appreciated!"

Furthermore the quality of the Castersrealm posters that you rely on so heavily as evidence are highlighted in the glorious pvp tactics section of various classes. Go ahead, I urge you to read some of those posts and have a laugh.

WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

web.archive.org/web/20020113123314/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=1141&Page=2

If you're a little slow you may be thinking at this point "so what, what does that prove besides he knew their HP?" Well, he only knew their HP because he stacked the DoTs. If the EBreath didn't stack with VoS the mobs would still have 150hp left whether he decided to cast it while VoS was active or to not cast it all. However, as he states, that was not the case. The mobs only had 150hp left if he didn't stack Ebreath with VoS. In classic and even now IIRC these mobs were always level 35, they always spawned with the same hp; it's the perfect constant for an experiment like this.

The only person slow here is you. You're reaching now to include selective testing. I just performed a simple addition test as well with the countless showeq spawn and spell databases available since early krunark - though don't get confused that has no bearing on stacking.

You could have easily casted the EBreath as well in your bullshit tests and replicated his instructions between the two VoS casts, you have merely spun his post out of context. At no point does he mention he stacked the spells. The guy you quoted is simply giving you an efficient cast formula so you don't waste mana on a higher strength dot or nuke - because he has tested it through trial and error and utilized an egg timer - like most people in the know during this period. I'm thinking timestamps were also available by velious.

The only definitive thing he states is that it took roughly 4 mins per Dwarf. Let me add something for you scrub - Scourge (2.1 mins) + VoS (42 seconds) + EBreath (42 Seconds) + VoS (42 seconds) = 4 mins 12 seconds. That equates to "roughly every 4 mins."

The guy states he is going for a no downtime mana conservation plan and that is why he is casting the Ebreath over a nuke - because he has experimented with the spawn times and understands with this cast formula he is just on top of all dwarf spawns. The issue of stack does not change the outcome here once again.

To summarize, the lack of information in conjunction with the patch dates I posted outlining all dot changes provides ample support upholding the dev post that the dots in question here did not stack.

Castle, consider this my last response to you and good luck with your petition. You're trolling for attention at this point.

[valithteezee]

"Inferior dots do not stack with superior dots."

Darkpeon, do you think it's more logical to assume that shaman's rolled around for over 3 years casting superior dots + inferior dots and did not notice the damage was stacking?

OR

That the damage actually was stacking and was used as an efficient means of PVE and PVP combat for over 3 years- as CONFIRMED by numerous people.

Anyways, the entire base of your argument is rooted in patch notes from July 24, 2002.

The Ruins of Kunark (April 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)

Patch on July 24, 2002.; 8 months after Luclin was released.

The Planes of Power (October 2002)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a CLASSIC experience? That means game mechanics should remain classic up until a point in time where an expansion changes things.

KEEP IT CLASSIC

[skorge]

unfortunately Castle is wrong, shaman could only stack one dot of each type, disease & poison, in classic. How do i know this? I actually PLAYED a shaman in classic. Can't get any stronger proof than that.

/end thread

[DarthPeon]

Darkpeon, do you think it's more logical to assume that shaman's rolled around for over 3 years casting superior dots + inferior dots and did not notice the damage was stacking?

OR

That the damage actually was stacking and was used as an efficient means of PVE and PVP combat for over 3 years- as CONFIRMED by numerous people.

Anyways, the entire base of your argument is rooted in patch notes from July 24, 2002.

The Ruins of Kunark (April 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)

Patch on July 24, 2002.; 8 months after Luclin was released.

The Planes of Power (October 2002)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a CLASSIC experience? That means game mechanics should remain classic up until a point in time where an expansion changes things.

KEEP IT CLASSIC

The amusing thing is you started this thread topic on the pvp forums and yet your reading comprehension is unfortunately not even on par with Castle. You missed the boat entirely - He at least understands this point below, and is arguing for something entirely different.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue - Dot stacking was never removed in this Luclin patch. One side is claiming it was in classic for Shaman "only", the other is proving that it was not the case.

Patch Date Sept 4th, 2002

We've made two changes to the way spells stack.

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This however still does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Full patch notes below

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

Read the exact wording from the notes and let it sink in.

The example that you misinterpreted was given to show that on this date in Luclin, same dots began to stack by multiple casters and the total dot/debuff limit was raised beyond 15.

The word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction dot stacking of lower/higher dots was not a feature taken away at that point.

Valitheezee, consider this my last response to you and good luck with your petition as well.

[valithteezee]

Lol, you are taking the patch notes from 2002 like they were passed down from Moses and it's unconvincing evidence at best. Yet, you can not give a single source from that era that states Shaman's(not necro's/druids) could not stack scourge/plague or ebolt/Vos. However, the overwhelming majority of Shaman players have confirmed it did stack.

Doesn't really matter at this point since we're beating a dead horse. Appreciate the feedback in any case.

[bionicbadger]

unfortunately Castle is wrong, shaman could only stack one dot of each type, disease & poison, in classic. How do i know this? I actually PLAYED a shaman in classic. Can't get any stronger proof than that.

/end thread

I played a shaman in classic too, beta 3 - luclin. And the different level DoTs did stack. It would have been much harder to solo shit if they didn't stack.

[Hangerbaby]

I distinctly remember shaman dots not stacking until later in the game. Not only this, but the patch notes from Sept 4, 2002 pretty clearly state that only one instance of a certain spell could afflict a target at a time up until that patch. This includes inferior level spells.

Your spell did not take hold

[Lovely]

My mommy told me that dots did not stack in 1999 (This is about as valid as most posts in here)

[Jotok]

people saying the inferior shaman dots did not stack with the higher lvl version never played a shaman in classic

http://ralloszek.stephans.org/rz/playerhistory.php?player_name=Jotok

Lets see when you other non believing shamans played "classic". Put up or shut up.

[Castle]

No, but I am getting bored with your creative interpretations of Everquest developer statements, what does or does not constitute a "line", and your slew of inexperienced posts as evidence. At this point you are merely putting spin on my statements and backtracking with implied things such as "Necro dots also stacked toooooo, I really mean it." - After I showed you that they share the same spell ID and the Necro casts of those same spells never stacked. You're the one with constructive interpretations. I interpret with supporting evidence... you do not. I never claimed Shamans were special, I only referred to them as "Shaman spells" because Shamans are known for their poison/disease (and BST/NEC happen to share some.) You didn't "show" me something I didn't know, pal. Nice straw man. Next.

DoT information in regards to when it wore off was simply not reported correctly until less than a month prior to PoP release. False. Assumptive. -- The "Your XXX Spell Has Worn Off" messages for DoT spells will now go to the right character -- "will now" means it was broken at some point. It doesn't mean it was just added and obviously it does not mean it was always broken, but only at some point before this patch. Very often in patching one thing they broke another and have to re-patch it back in. How many times have you seen a patch where something stopped working and had to be re-patched? Pretty common. You haven't provided a patch-date for when "wore off" was originally put in, only when it was fixed after it broken at some point. I also never said there were DoT tic messages in classic, only when DoTs wore off. Whether or not that is true, still doesn't change the situation and the players abilities to test HP via stacking DoTs. It's a non-deciding factor. Next.

And still at this point there was zero information about how much damage a dot did. Good players relied on counting letters in NPC names and similar variations to calculate damage needed prior to information being available. Once again, I never argued DoT tic messages were shown that early. You could find damage information on websites as people test it and you could look at the spell file, or just watch a mobs HP decrease with 1 versus 2 DoTs on them. Next.

The progression of patch notes above details the inexperience of your sources - thus undermining your challenge to the most important patch note outlining the only definitive dot stacking rule we have and specifically stating
(1) I never argued DoT dmg messages were in that early
(2) You provide no patch for when "wore off" messages were added, only when it was patched and fixed because it was broke at some point
(3) Whether or not the "wore off" messages were in doesn't negate my findings. It only makes it more obvious people wouldn't miss it if it was in.
(4) All you've done is put up a bunch of irrelevant or ultimately non-decisive patches followed by your original patch quote which you misinterpret.

In other words. Next.

"Inferior and superior DoTs." The Devs never mention a "line" of spells anyway. They do mention heat blood and boil blood. So what makes a line? Let me ask you some questions if you're so smart pal ;)

Do these spells stack?

NEC Level 4 Poison Bolt & SHM 49 Envenomed Bolt
NEC Level 4 Poison Bolt & SHM 9 Tainted Breath
NEC Level 1 Disease Cloud & SHM 34 Scourge
SHM Level 5 Sicken & NEC 1 Disease Cloud
SHM Level 24 Envenomed Breath & NEC 39 Chilling Embrace

I'll wait for your answers to make my point, brah.

Even by your generous mid 2001 standards, Blart's post is written about classic everquest pvp over 5 months after velious release. Blart attempted to recreate a classic guide about an era few understood how stuff exactly worked. He was certainly not receiving any feedback in response to his dot casts from the server and neither were his opponents. Given the nature of an item loot pvp server, you can deduct that he did not have the luxury to ask for damage parses and critical feedback while he stole some kid's shoes. The man is not infallible and his memory may have failed him. Bro.. Mid 2001 is 5 months after Velious' release lol. Do math before you throw your bias out there like that ;) Once again, you haven't shown when DoT wore off messages were in, only when they got fixed sometime after they were broke. And once again, I never argued DoT messages were in, only wore off messages and as I stated early it doesn't matter, because on mobs you can tell over a number of fights if your DoTs are doing damage or not. Finally on this, it's a non-deciding factor whether or not DoTs stacked.

Lastly, the issue isn't if Blart could tell exactly how much each tic was doing, but if he could discern the difference between 1 DoT versus 2 DoTs. Obviously he would notice a difference of 1 DoT versus 2 DoTs actively on someone. To say otherwise is (1) stupidity or (2) bias. Sure he doesn't get DoT dmg messages, we haven't seen when "wore off" messages were put in exactly so maybe he didn't get a "wore off" message, but he could see the difference between Plague versus Plague + Scourge. His guide archived over various ears remains unchanged in regards to him claiming DoTs stacked. No one reported it to him, but MORE importantly in his years and years of PvP he continued to stack DoTs. In years of PvP he isn't going to notice 1 DoT versus 2 DoTs on a toon and he is one of the best Shamans at the time? *throws a handful of straws at DarthPeon* keep grasping, brah.

You're arguing pointless minutia and missing the major issue here.


Furthermore the quality of the Castersrealm posters that you rely on so heavily as evidence are highlighted in the glorious pvp tactics section of various classes. Go ahead, I urge you to read some of those posts and have a laugh. Oh I've seen it. I agree wholeheartedly and most of the posts are about "dueling:" bluebie fags need to not comment on red issues from personal experience if they haven't played on red. Wait... aren't necros/druids doing the same thing here in regards to shamans here. Thanks for proving my point.

Summary He is NOT saying he is stacking, you're making it up.. QQ... QQ. Bro it's quite simple. You obviously so want your made up shit to be true you can't read without bias. The common sense reading of what he says is clear. With your logic what he says makes no sense at all. I'll explain it in simple terms for you.

[b]Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in.

Clearly it's a step by step strategy. By your logic he didn't root after VoS (1) and either (a) kept running full-knowing the mob takes less damage or (b) let it beat on him? He's given you the full formula here. This means what he really did was he tagged it with Scourge, then VoS, then EB, then rooted. Waited 42 seconds for the 1st VoS to wear off (because you can't stack the same DoT with itself) then cast it again. If you need to wait 42 seconds before you cast VoS(2) because it doesn't stack with Ebreath, why doesn't he say wait 42 seconds to cast Envenomed Breath?

Your logic makes no fucking sense. The most common sense read is he tagged with scourge, VoS, ebreath, rooted, then waited for VoS to wear off to cast again, and kept it rooted til it died. Pretty simple. Matches what he says.

Recap of this Legit Source If he wasn't trying to stack ebreath and VoS

(1)He either (a)let it beat on him between VoS (1) and Ebreath for 42 seconds, or (b)ran (even though he says to root so you don't lose dmg) or (c)put in 2 specific root steps, but decided to leave that one out
AND
(2)He says to wait 42 seconds from Ebreath to VoS(2), but not from VoS(1) to Ebreath???

No. Sense.

I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. You're not accounting for him running to mobs, running from mobs while landing first spells, or spell casting time. That easily would add another 20-30 seconds and that'd still be "roughly..ever 4 minutes."

To summarize, the lack of information in conjunction with the patch dates I posted outlining all dot changes provides ample support upholding the dev post that the dots in question here did not stack.

Naw bro. You got it all backwards.

Real Summary

Your patch notes beyond the long-ago stated and often-misinterpreted one are irrelevant (DoT dmg messages) or you haven't proven they were after classic (wore off messages), and ultimately both being a non-deciding factor true or not. You don't need DoT dmg messages or even wore off messages to see Ebolt + VoS > Ebolt. It's pretty simple.
I provide lots of classic posts from CR as well as a classic era Shaman posting their info that remained unchanged for years even though he was open to corretion (a) no one corrected him and (b) he played years seeing DoTs stack so he didn't change it.
My information is much more detailed and now that I clarified in this thread, beyond sick bias, will not be interpreted other than "DoTs stack, here's how I did it."


Conclusion (thus far)
It's still my wave of ever vindicated various sources with clear statements of DoTs stacking versus one vague patch message that does not clearly address shaman DoTs stacking. If you have no real new evidence to add, I think the verdict is clear: all shaman DoTs stacked in classic.

[Hangerbaby]

FFS. This is project 1999, not project 2001. The classic dot system is pretty well documented as only allowing 1 dot per line to be cast on any one mob.

This was considered a flaw and was subsequently fixed


I can see why people would be upset with its current state, because that's exactly why it was patched in.

[Castle]

FFS. This is project 1999, not project 2001. The classic dot system is pretty well documented as only allowing 1 dot per line to be cast on any one mob.

This was considered a flaw and was subsequently fixed


I can see why people would be upset with its current state, because that's exactly why it was patched in. 1 dot per line with Necros/Druids. Where is this evidence in regards to Shamans? The best source we got so far is the epic-fail-one-star Prima guide? Lol.

It wasn't patched in. It said that for necros (and druid sources confirm for druids) they could only cast 1 dot from each line. 2002 just affirmed this and sources say necros/druids couldn't stack like shamans. They changed it so you could stack 2 of the exact same DoT from 2 different classes in 2002.

BTW though the posts say 2001 they all say Jan of 2001 because that's when CR reformated DB and the dates got reset, all the other info stayed. This means every post at the latest was Jan 28 2001. Bam.

[Treats]

WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

He meditates BETWEEN Dots NOT fights. If he were able to stack the Dots each dwarf would die in approximately 21 ticks (2 minutes 6 seconds) from Scourge. He then would be sitting there for another TWO MINUTES meditating which he clearly states he does not do.

Scourge - 170 Mana (21 Ticks)
VoS - 160 Mana (7 Ticks)
Envenomed Breath - 100 Mana (7 Ticks)
Root - 30 Mana
VoS - 160 Mana (7 Ticks)

[skorge]

shrug maybe i was wrong in my last post...lol it has been over 10 years....easy to forget. Anyways I just found this on Shaman's Crucibile (the best site for shaman info). This is straight from a Mod there too (his response is in bold):

Ravenwing wrote:
Quote:
You are correct that DoTs from the same line don't stack, but this didn't apply to shaman DoTs in EQClassic. I played a shaman in classic and you can ask any other shaman who played: all of our DoTs stacked except you can't double up on the exact same DoT. That was one of the things that made them so amazing was the fact that all their DoTs stacked. That was apparently changed later at some point for "balance." I remember stacking Ebolt with VoS AND Envenomed Breath. Apparently you can't do that these days. Probably got tossed in with the 2002 patch that allowed the same DoT from different classes to stack, and they did this to balance things out. It seems to fit into that update since they changed how stuff stacks and had just made DoTs much more powerful, especially in raid situations.

I think you have it reversed. As of the dot stacking patch, multiple dots from the same line still didn't stack:

Quote:
2002/09/04: After today the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not stack.)


Currently on live, you *can* stack multiple dots of the same type, including the shaman/necro poison line. Originally, it wasn't possible. The ability to stack Bane with EB wasn't nerfed; it was added in post-classic.



I played from a shaman 1999-2001 and could stack my all low level and high level poison/disease dots. FYI

Source: http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=312&start=25

MORE RESEARCH BELOW:

Quote:
Currently on live, you *can* stack multiple dots of the same type, including the shaman/necro poison line. Originally, it wasn't possible. The ability to stack Bane with EB wasn't nerfed; it was added in post-classic.
Actually, the opposite is true. Originally shamans could stack all of the following DoTs on one mob: Sicken, Affliction, Scourge, Plague, Pox of Bertoxxulous, Tainted Breath, Envenomed Breath, Venom of the Snake, Envenomed Bolt, and Bane of Nife.

Source: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.htm ... ource=Live

Spell: Envenomed Breath (shaman - 24)
Does not currently stack with...
Tainted Breath - Shaman - 9
Venom of the Snake - Shaman 39
Evenombed Bolt - Shaman 49
Bane of Nife - Shaman 56

Spell: Pox of Bertoxxulous
Does not currently stack with...
Sicken - Shaman - 5
Affliction - Shaman - 19
Scourge- Shaman - 34
Plague - Shaman 49

It was nerfed somewhere along the line after Velious. I think the facts I have given in my previous post and my interpretation of where the nerf came from is the most probable story. They allowed the same DoT to be stacked by any number of characters, and they had focus effects of burning/extended affliction, so they made Shamans like other classes with "lines" of spells and only one spell "per line" stacks.

[Dfn]

And the evidence continues to pour in for Shamans... Are you haters still hanging on to one vaguely written patch note that doesn't even mention Shaman?

[Castle]

I think I forgot one
http://web.archive.org/web/20010724061058/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1141
Speaking on Scourge - 34 dis
PULLING, By Mack (1/28/2001)

Pull with this spell. Then if they're right, turn around and smack em with affliction. By the time you get back to your party poison him. There you just got 3 dots on em that will do just below 1000 damage 1 1/2 min. not bad at all...This spell kicks butt.

And here comes the knock out punch.... the CastersRealm spell description itself of Scourge!
http://web.archive.org/web/20010724061058/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1141

Also, all of the Shaman DoT's stack with each other and other's DoTs. Scourge and Affliction for example stack as well as the Poison DoT's. Stacking DoT's is a great way to do some massive damage

Can I get a what-what my African American kinsmen?

[valithteezee]

Good find, President. Let's see if congress passes this bill.

[Melveny]

Good find indeed, I stand potentially corrected. Two questions though.

1) why the fuck did you not post something like this sooner? Why the fuck are ou spewing out people's lvling guides as a reference then a VALID source like castersrealm.

2) why the fuck are there two threads about this and apparently I have been posting in the wrong one.

[Brinkman]

I consider myself somewhat of a wayback nerd researcher, gotta say anything relating to shaman dot stacking is very hard to find prior to 2001, most of the problems come from the fact you can find a website archived in 1999 or 2000, but when you click on a link of a spell, or post, whathave you, wayback will attempt to find the earliest crawl for that specific link, which could be 2 years in the future. This doesnt mean the page didnt exist in 1999, it just means the first crawl of it was 2 years later... frustrating.

Anyhow! My first find... its from a class guide from eqstratics. No, this is not impressive or gasping proof of anything, but its a decent guide. Dated April 27, 2000 ( 3 days after kunark release ). The actual url will not link, gives 404 error, click this link, then find the shaman class forum link, and click it. its the first link named "shaman guide" The quote below is from the first post in the shaman forum.
http://web.archive.org/web/20000520011148/http://eq.stratics.com/gamersforum/classes.html



The highlight is this quote:

4/27/00 04:41 AM
Re: Shaman guide

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of our DoTs are stackable with each other. With other classes DoTs too.

Ok so this could be interpreted many ways, but I highly doubt the guy meant 1 poison and 1 disease dot stack with each other when he says "most". I am also going to conclude that even though this post is technically Kunark era, the guy is obviously talking about his experience in the past.... not past 3 days =) take it for what it is.. Im not saying its testament to anything, but quite interesting.

Interestingly, there is another post called " Stacking dots" on the Shaman main page, which begs the question, if shaman could only stack 1 poison and 1 disease dot, why would this post even exist? Unfortunataly there was never a crawl for that page, which would have prolly ended this debate.

My search continues....

[Mouse]

Confirmed, everyone who disagrees with Castle believes in the the magic bullet theory, and that terrorists crashed planes full of real human beings into the twin towers and the pentagon. Confirmed.

[Castle]

Melveny, (1) becaue I'm a master wordsmith/debater and I gotta keep an ace in the hole naw'man, brah? (2) because 1 thread cannot contain the epicness of this truth longs suppressed by illuminati & lizardmen (and I don't mean iksars, dawg.)

Brinkman, good point. +1

Let's get this ish implemented Devs. What say ye?

[Silikten]

I think they are referring to stuff like Scourge stacking with Asystole. Reason being because Scourge/Plague are same dot line, but one is more powerful while Asystole is a str debuff as well as disease. Therefore, they are considered to separate dots.

However, I don't remember how dots worked pre-kunark so I really don't know. I do know that in luclin I was stacking heat blood, boil blood, then Ignite so that I can bury Ignite.

[Castle]

Awaiting a public apology and a fix. Thanks.

[Yinaltin]

castle had this confirmed since page 1 . time to get this nerfed ! what more evidence is there to bring ? same with dwarf king . so much proof but no nerf . man :(

[Yinaltin]

*push* ?

[Gert Groinwounder]

Bump

I played a Shaman on live from 2 months before Kunark was released until about 6 months ago. I can verify ALL our dots stacked the whole time I played. Would really like to see this fixed here...

[Toehammer]

bump...

glad this thread is still getting attention, classic shaman DoT mechanics needed!

[Bkab]

^yes

but it will never happen sadly

[Bkab]

after re reading this thread i still wonder how the fuck devs dropped the ball on this one and still refuse to pick it back up lol. although it's not surprising given the current affairs that desperately need attention receiving absolutely none.

[Srs Not Ames]

starwarstime

[Ssleeve]

Shamans still OP as fuck in pvp

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/8/8609/8816055.jpg

[Nirgon]

after re reading this thread i still wonder how the fuck devs dropped the ball on this one and still refuse to pick it back up lol. although it's not surprising given the current affairs that desperately need attention receiving absolutely none.

Could be a complex issue man. Rewriting things that you didn't personally develop can be a major pain in the ass. Dunno.

[Toehammer]

Shamans still OP as fuck in pvp

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/8/8609/8816055.jpg

it is not about PvP my friend... it is about PvE!

[Castle]

My fellow Norrathians... as President of People for Classical Treatment of Shamans.. I demand that congress act now and pass this bill. For the sake of all that is Norrathian please stop ignoring, uhhh, the will of the Norrathian people. Every class needs to get their fair share of, uhhh, classic actuality. Listen. That's what I am here to do. Some people, particularly those on the other side of the aisle (Anticlassicans) have said I am playing a game of "class warfare." Whatever class you play, we are all Norrathians. Look, uhhh, We are all in this together. End the political games and let's return to the principles of classicism that made Norrath great. Thank you, and uhhh, Norrath be blessed.

*speech end*

They just need to admit, classic shamans are just "too good" and this isn't a real classic server. Eat that crow devs, and like it!

[Spitty]

If anyone finds an archive of the original VNBoards or the 'official' class boards from 1999-2000, I suspect this issue would resolve itself quickly. Web.archive.org appears to have missed both of those boards by a couple of years, unfortunately.

I, for one, wrote numerous guides on those boards for shaman soloing from 34 through 50 in pre-Kunark classic EQ, targeting mobs with high cash return and exp gain. Some targets that come to mind are Rathe Hill Giants, Seafuries, Spectres/Cyndreela in Feerrott and guild guards in Neriak C. These were all high risk-versus-reward fights in that you'd empty your entire mana pool as quickly as possible, doing as much damage as possible, in order to win. DoT stacking was a crucial part of that strategy.

I feel safe in saying that few of the targets listed would have been possible without the ability to stack at least two poison DoTs. I very specifically remember the guide I wrote for 39-44 (DoT kiting Hill Giants in Rathe) involved stacking DoTs as the shaman class obtained Venom of the Snake at 39 and could finally do quite a bit of damage-per-tick pulling with it, running to maximum cast range and stacking the shorter-casting Envenomed Breath.

Sadly, I have no idea where my hundreds of posts have gone. I know VNBoards "lost" thousands of posts when they rebuilt the forums in 2000/2001, and Sony's archives of the class forums only goes back to 2004 - long after the discovery of the game had worn off and I'd stopped writing guides. Searching by my character name Spitulski (which was my only posting handle) on web.archive comes up fruitless as well.

Yes, I know - this post has no merit in terms of hard data, but I was rather displeased when I hit 34 and discovered the strategies I'd developed 12 years ago couldn't be implemented. Having said that, I chalked it up to being one of p99's quirks and adapted accordingly. I do hope that the stacking ability is implemented if and when Velious is released, because nearly every fun solo-at-60 mob (Western Waste dragons come to mind) are going to be impossible without classic stacking abilities.

[kanras]

Fixed, pending update.

[Toehammer]

Fixed, pending update.

Finally... good job Castle! Thank you for listening Kanras! One small step closer to classic EQ, I love it!

I feel bad for opponents of shamans on Red99 now... ouch!

[Bkab]

Fixed, pending update.

oh man i cannot fucking wait. thank you sir <3. pras castle.

[DoucLangur]

woohoo! That'll be fun :) It does affect both servers, doesn't it?

Thanks to castle! And to kanras!

[Gert Groinwounder]

Finally... good job Castle! Thank you for listening Kanras! One small step closer to classic EQ, I love it!

I feel bad for opponents of shamans on Red99 now... ouch!

[Spitty]

Awesome. Thank you, Mr. Update.

[Toehammer]

oh man i cannot fucking wait. thank you sir <3. pras castle.

Yes, I don't have a shaman on Red99, but my main on blue is a shaman. Now I am scared to log on my mage on Red99 haha shamans gonna be everywhere :eek:

[Ssleeve]

Rerolling SHM, confirmed now insanely OP in pvp and pve.

[Flowz]

Rerolling SHM, confirmed now insanely OP in pvp and pve.

Bascially, untill kunark when melee's start getting disc's and high MR then there will be 80% melee's like it always goes, this aint the first rodeo all the vets know whats gonna happen.

[skorge]

Rerolling SHM, confirmed now insanely OP in pvp and pve.

That's the way it's always been, with the dots stacking...the first 50 on my server was a shaman actually way back in '99 on Veeshan. U want to talk about OP'd was the way they had the Rage line on P99 before Kunark hit...it was basically acting like Torpor. I was ticking for 55 hps a tick at level 51 with it on me, chloroplast, troll regen, and a rubi bp. That was insanely OPd

[Castle]

I was on the PM-batphone like "STACKLASSICSTACKLASSICK!!!!!!!!!!"
http://www.cookerlypr.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bad-customer-service1.jpg

then they was like "NO"

but then they was like
Fixed, pending update.

So I was all like
http://www.2dopeboyz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/20100119-KHALED.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGXzlRoNtHU&ob=av3e)

gg, but sadly.. no re

[Nirgon]

I certainly remember having many diseases put on me at early Kunark.

Way to stick with it Castle.

[jeffd]

the best part of this thread was when uthgaard jumped in, threw insults around, had people shit all over him with evidence, and then never appeared again when he realized he was wrong

A+ would read again

[Cukshaik]

That one guy is considered a "VIP" even though he is going around spreading false information on the forums? That's a funny one, this thread is awesome.

[Cukshaik]

Uthgaard and Darthpeon are the kind of people I really love to see make an ass of themselves.

[p-niner]

So do they stack now?

[Nirgon]

Diseases I can say at least 100% stacked from shamans early Kunark, and I hope they do here

[trukk]

I played beta 2 - Kunark: troll Shaman.

I still vividly remember being in the Oasis, when I dinged 19. Read my 2nd Disease Dot. I then proceeded to test the stacking. Couldn't tell for sure, so being the Intellectual troll I was, I cast them on myself. They stacked...YES. Went to click them off...UH-OH.can't click them off like buffs..killed myself (wasn't at full health)...at least I knew they stacked.

-Chris