Are Druids Useless for Groups and Raids?

[Ephirith]

When I first started here like a month and a half ago I really wanted to make a druid. But I read the forums a bit and I read that people generally roll druids and level them up so they can farm to gear up a character that they actually want to play.

I know very little about what it is actually like to be a druid at higher levels so I was hoping some of you could enlighten me. I read that a group would almost always prefer a shaman over a druid, which makes sense. Does that mean druids can never find groups?

I love the versatility and solo capability... being able to solo is pretty important to me with the time constraints I have coming up. But even then, I would like to be at least marginally useful in a group sometimes. My first character was a shaman and I loved it, but the only reason I rolled him instead of a druid was because of what I've mentioned here.

[Fountree]

There have been previous threads that have talked about this, but druids remain very useful and important in the high levels both in groups/raids.

Why would you want a druid in your group?

1. they have the ability to deal more damage (higher damage nukes)
2. they can evac/port group for better mobility
3. they have longer lasting root CC/snare ability
4. they have group FR/CR buffs as well as MR single cast buff.
5. they have the best single HP/AC all-in-one buff in the game (Natureskin, which also carries a nice HP regen component)
6. they can charm animals, adding greatly to dps in certain dungeons/outdoors
7. they have group regen spells, while shamans only have single cast regen
8. they have the ability to harmony outdoors (unresistable lull)
9. they have a nice Damage Shield capability, including a group DS (up to 32pt ds single at lvl 60, and 28pt group ds at lvl 60) which increases damage all around

For raids, they are excellent patch healers, buffers, and CCers. They also serve the function of helping to mobilize the raid force, which is obviously very important.

[Slave]

For experience, no. You do not want a druid.

For raids, yes.

[Samoht]

The deal with Druids is that they don't do anything that somebody else can't. They can heal, nuke, snare, invis, buff, DS, and so can a lot of other classes.

The benefit to a group or raid is the same: they're the most versatile class in the game.

[Vondra]

For experience, no. You do not want a druid.

For raids, yes.

This.

Course you can say that about any class in a raid, it's better to have them along than not...mainly since this isn't WoW where you've got a set limit of a 10/25 raid force with encounters tuned for exactly that many people where max efficiency from each player is needed.

Here if you're raiding with 21 people...well why not bring along that druid as member 22. Doesn't hurt anything.




In 6 man standard exp groups versatility just isn't needed. Your tank can do all the tanking, your cleric can do all the healing, and your enchanter (or bard) can do all the CCing. Your only decision for the last three slots is whether you want to do monk/dps/dps, monk/shaman/dps, dps/dps/dps, or shaman/dps/dps...which is usually just decided based on who's LFG atm.

[Samoht]

In 6 man standard exp groups versatility just isn't needed. Your tank can do all the tanking, your cleric can do all the healing, and your enchanter (or bard) can do all the CCing. Your only decision for the last three slots is whether you want to do monk/dps/dps, monk/shaman/dps, dps/dps/dps, or shaman/dps/dps...which is usually just decided based on who's LFG atm.

This statement seems contradictory. It starts by assuming that a tank, healer, and enchanter/bard are always available, but then the last three spots are based on who is LFG. In the real world, enchanter/bards, clerics, and not even tanks are always readily available. That's where the druid shines. In most circumstances, they can effectively take the role of healer, CCer, or DPSer. And when all else fails, they can aggro kite.

They may not always be desired in a group but are often welcomed in the absence of alternatives.

[Snaggles]

Well, many things in life are preferable but you don't always get them. :p

The druid is a pretty well rounded class. If you consider ports and track they are probably the best rounded in the game (for overall gameplay).

If you have an enchanter a druid vs shaman for healing isn't a big deal. Even if you have a bard slowing/cc'ing a druid can keep up with heals. Ultimately you need a tank, CC (sometimes), and healer...the rest are just dps and can be filled by many classes. I guess even a Druid can be group DPS but it's a pretty crappy spot for them, imho.

On raids, especially in Velious, they become backup healers saving DPS from dying and providing group buffs like thorns and resists.

Many people re-roll from a Druid main for another class. Part of being frustrated with not being the "best" at much for the little min-maxer in all of us.


Note: Realized after writing it that you all mentioned things I did. Too lazy to edit and make it sound brilliant.

[Happyfeet]

Many of you who think druids are useless have just never grouped with a good druid who uses his mana effectively to boost the efficiency of the entire group.

My main is a druid and has been since '99, but my alt is a monk and I've grouped with druids who simply have no idea what their role is because it can be so many things. That is the difficulty of the druid class, figuring out where you fit in with 5 other people to be the most effective. A lot of druids play the class as simply as possible, just DS the MT, dot each mob with vambs, then throw in nukes randomly. If the cleric is LOM constantly, you should be healing more, etc, etc.

Moral of the story, druids are crucial to raids and can be great in groups if played correctly.

[baub]

Druids are like my little brother when it came to playing contra or mario. He had a controller, it just wasn't plugged in.

[Snaggles]

If your cleric is running LOM your group is under-geared/leveled for the camp or someone is doing something very wrong.

If a druid is in the same group as a cleric his/her hands better be bright red with flames constantly. Same goes to any other caster dps. If not it's akin to a melee arming himself with splintered clubs to raise 1hb.*

* Unless the druid is chain pulling with harmony as mentioned.

[Atmas]

To the OP: Play what you want to play. What is the point of going through 60 levels on a class you don't enjoy?

Druids can solo well and people in game aren't as picky about group members as it sounds based on the forums. Not that people aren't selective when there is one spot and 3 people lfg but really you don't need to worry about it so much.

When it gets to raid time people need DPS and patch heals. Lastly the game, not the players, decides what loot drops.

[Handull]

Some good points were made.

Play what you want, but here is what I like about a high end druid (56 currently)

-Once you hit 46 and get a lumi staff you can solo to 49 super fast. From 49 to 60 you can solo quickly without much gear at all.
-you can port around all you want, without having to find a porter
-camping most gear is pretty easy
-While you aren't the 'best' for a min/max super group, you can duo/trio really well with other classes (duo'ed with a war in the basement of KC the other day, trio'ed with a monk+tank in HS, etc)

You can do a lot on raids:
-No shaman? you can cover melee str buffs
-Do some back up healing once in a while to help out
-Necro wants to litch more? hit him with skin+regen
-Clerics need to save mana? you can give melees, offtanks, and chanters hp/ac/regen buff all in one
-Things get out of hand? throw down some quick roots for CC and snares to start kiting and grab agro fast
-Want to pull? Go for it! With harmo and sow/wolf you can fairly easily pull hate and fear (but expect to die before you wipe your raid)
-hate/fear/sky are also outdoor zones, so you get to use all your spells, including the mana regen ones that you can't use in high level dungeons like seb
-Want to dps like a champ? charm a rat or ape (hate/fear) and you can easily become the exp group
-need to deal with real life for a sec? nuke away until oom and the raid can go on and no one will really miss you too much

I've been doing all of these things and its super fun, imo

if you try it out and don't find it fun, then try something else. i rolled a monk alt cause i really enjoy pulling, though in some situations knowing what and how to pull is more important than what class you play. have fun.

[Hamahakki]

Druids are far from useless but in general they aren't one of the better classes for exp grouping.

Druids are a versatile class with lots of strengths, the main ones are:

- Druids are early bloomers; they are quite strong below about level 35. Thorns especially are very powerful at lower levels. From 35-60, shamans, clerics and melee classes improve a lot more than druids do.
- Druids are so versatile there is always SOMETHING you can do. You aren't the best at healing, dps, or CC but you can do it. Any group can put a druid to good use, unlike say an enchanter which is not very useful in a group that already has an enchanter.
- Porting is a legitimately strong exp group ability. Putting together your own group is easier for a druid than most other classes because you can pick people up. Some classes might do more damage in the 6th group spot than a druid, but that doesn't matter if the group never gets off the ground. Evac is a useful ability too. Some dungeons require ports (hole, HS).
- In areas where charming is possible, your DPS can be extremely high.

- You can always solo, druids are great at it.

[Snaggles]

Groups are traditional and unorthodox. Some odd combos are done to spice up the game or out of necessity. If people aren't dying an exp/loot is flowing the druids role isn't important. You will get plenty of them because healers are less plentiful than dps (and Nature's Touch is badass in Velious).

Raids are different. You have a couple roles as does everyone else. You wont deviate from the leaders plan. No raid will be without a shaman or a cleric will be saving mana, lol. People will get prime buffs from all and many guilds will symbol everyone on final encounters. A druid will be healing/buffing and the only nukes that will get thrown will be occasional debuffs. Anything else (even charming) is a distraction and waste of mana.

Your heals benefit the raid more than your damage because dps and usually offtanks won't be getting cleric heals. On anything but blue cons you will never keep up with melees in dps (even Rangers) let alone the rogues and monks. Wizards dps because they are designed to.

Your experience/guild may vary but this seems the general standard for any raid that isn't trivial. Your role isn't less important because your babysitting rogues...they can't always stay alive by themselves.

[usedtobejubaloftorv]

While I'm finding that my druid isn't considered very desirable for groups, once I get in the group tends to appreciate the broad range of value-add a druid can bring to most groups. In the long run I expect my main competition for groups will be wizards, in the evacer/snarer/nuker role, rather than competing with cleric and shaman.

Also in outdoors zones, outdoor dungeon zones in particular, you simply can't beat a druid puller - harmony trivializes pulling in those situations, not even a well-skilled monk has it so easy, and track helps immensely with timing pulls as well.

[pickled_heretic]

This statement seems contradictory. It starts by assuming that a tank, healer, and enchanter/bard are always available, but then the last three spots are based on who is LFG. In the real world, enchanter/bards, clerics, and not even tanks are always readily available. That's where the druid shines. In most circumstances, they can effectively take the role of healer, CCer, or DPSer. And when all else fails, they can aggro kite.

They may not always be desired in a group but are often welcomed in the absence of alternatives.

if a group doesn't have a cleric 50+, a bard or enchanter 50+, or a tank 50+, the group will rarely form in the first place. that's why they call it the holy trinity, and the holy trinity covers every base that the druid dabbles in. a druid does NOT replace a cleric in the absence of a cleric, nobody does.

druids have some use in raids but honestly everyone and their mom has a 50+ druid alt so you will be competing for drops with a lot of people. there are more HALFLING druids than there are people playing any other single class regardless of race.

[Tamiah2011]

they good for buffs, that about all intill they get superior heals

[pickled_heretic]

Anything else (even charming) is a distraction and waste of mana.

this is nonsense btw. charming is the best dps in the game if you can get it organized at a raid level. and is a great way for druids to contribute to a raid.

[Snaggles]

While I'm finding that my druid isn't considered very desirable for groups, once I get in the group tends to appreciate the broad range of value-add a druid can bring to most groups. In the long run I expect my main competition for groups will be wizards, in the evacer/snarer/nuker role, rather than competing with cleric and shaman.

Also in outdoors zones, outdoor dungeon zones in particular, you simply can't beat a druid puller - harmony trivializes pulling in those situations, not even a well-skilled monk has it so easy, and track helps immensely with timing pulls as well.

Keep the faith. Few classes can bind somewhere, port and solo, then gate back to see if a group has opened up. Hell, most others can't even solo efficiently.

As for outdoor pulling harmony is amazing but the ranger can do everything you can. Luckily they are loathed for the dreaded exp penalty.


this is nonsense btw. charming is the best dps in the game if you can get it organized at a raid level. and is a great way for druids to contribute to a raid.

Yea I know. Also, raid locations are overflowing with accessible animals to charm for final encounters, huh? Maybe some guilds strategize their Inny kill around a tethered Rev Rat but most dont. It better kamikaze itself too because when the hasted buffed rat gibs the Druid in seconds during the last fight those rogues better start bandaging.

I stand corrected with an implausible rather than an impossible.

[pickled_heretic]

Yea I know. Also, raid locations are overflowing with accessible animals to charm for final encounters, huh? Maybe some guilds strategize their Inny kill around a tethered Rev Rat but most dont. It better kamikaze itself too because when the hasted buffed rat gibs the Druid in seconds during the last fight those rogues better start bandaging.

I stand corrected with an implausible rather than an impossible.

confirmed for never raiding in velious.

[Overweight]

Druids are like my little brother when it came to playing contra or mario. He had a controller, it just wasn't plugged in.

This made me LOL lots...... well said sir. We're all guilty of doing this LOL.

[Snaggles]

confirmed for never raiding in velious.

rofl. If it happened it sure wasn't raid strategy. "Keep the mammoth alive! It's our only hope!"

How many Druids you raid with? 10, 20?

[Daldaen]

For groups druids *generally* aren't picked because another class can do it 'better'.

A Great druid can:
They can pull better than a mediocre monk.
CC better than a mediocre enchanter and a good bard (great bards still are better)
Heal better than a shaman pre torpor
Mitigate caster damage through Resist buffs
Regen a group to greatly reduce healing require (19 regen with Regrowth+Natureskin every 6 seconds lasting 15minutes adds up.)
DS a tank or an entire group to add nice passive/aggro free DPS
DPS in burst decently well
CHARM <3.

There are very few roles a great druid can't fill, aside from tank/slower basically, they can do almost everything else. And in Velious we get ATK debuffs which count as a pseudo 'slow' as it is passive DPS reduction.

I've been main heal, puller and CC in a basement KC group for probably 6-8 hours straight killing. So druids can get groups and do stuff, but you generally aren't picked for groups unless you are known as a skilled druid by a guildmate, friend, etc. But if you start em you can do pretty well. You won't be getting groups in Crypt or Spore King generally speaking by just putting up LFG. As those camps are usually optimized with the 'best' group setup as they are extremely lucrative and they have their pick of the lot (in terms of LFG people). But you can start groups for em.

[Taluvill]

Biggest thing is to mold yourself to the group's role/needs. If you have to heal, you have to be flexible and put your cleric hat on. If you have to dps, get your wizard hat out, etc, etc. A lot of it is just being flexible.

I charmed monkeys in Fear right when it came out. It's definitely a legit strategy, but while a monkey with full shaman buffs and druid haste can tank or just kill everything like a boss, when charm breaks, its really, really bad.

Edit: The problem with a druid charming is it is not as reliable as a chanter, even when you hit that 230-250 Cha mark. The only time that its good for a druid to charm is when you have a very, very stable group or raid, and at that point, you'd just have the chanter charm.

[pickled_heretic]

charming is probably the most efficient thing a druid could do in a raid, whenever possible. extra enchanters should be charming as well. more dps than a rogue.

[Szeth]

Taluvill, iirc did they not take our the druid charisma modifier to charming?

[Nirgon]

A vision'd zol knight that I charmed was doing just a bit less than a 58 monk with TStaff.

[Daldaen]

Taluvill, iirc did they not take our the druid charisma modifier to charming?

They did, he just hasn't played in awhile. Druid charm is pretty reliable like it was on live. Especially when Glamour of Tunare gets tossed into the mix.

Charmed shiverbacks in Fear and rats in Hate are excellent DPS additions to a raid/group force. 6 druids/enchanters could wreck hate or fear IMO :P.

[Snaggles]

keep stepping on your dick. it amuses me highly.

Just speak from my own experience. We didn't pick raid mobs due to proximity of the closest zoo. You're the one saying I never raided Velious. ;)

Oh and leave my dick out of this. Keep your fantasies in NSFW.

[Tarathiel]

Your role isn't less important because your babysitting rogues...they can't always stay alive by themselves.

those ds's can be quite nasty =P but ya i prefer a druid in melee groups on raids, the regen, buffs, and wolf form make them perfect for dps groups =D

[Snaggles]

those ds's can be quite nasty =P but ya i prefer a druid in melee groups on raids, the regen, buffs, and wolf form make them perfect for dps groups =D

That's how we always used them. Great to put with melee dps and come Velious they only get better.

My little rant with Pickled aside I'm sure for some fights druids charm fight. I mean, use the tools and resources you have available. If you're a dumbass (sadly a large percentage of the entire gaming community) don't be micro managing a hasted chicken and trying to keep 5 dps alive. It's a bullshit tactic waiting to implode.

[Silentone]

I read everything everyone said and for the most part everyone is right..however from my experience the truth is you will always be passed up as a healer for a cleric or shaman and you will always be passed up by dps. So if you have friends whom you group with constantly your fine if you like to solo your fine. If you want dungeons and group play you arent going to get too many group invities. Thats been my experience, and as far as raids go, you are great for ports and random stuff but your class wont be missed if you dont show up.

[Daldaen]

Druids are an excellent duo partner with many classes however. Rangers, Monks, Shadowknights, Paladins, Enchanters and a few others.

Full groups as I said before, there is always a class that can do the role they need you to do 'better'. But if your pick is between a shitty enchanter and a great druid, a great druid will be able to CC mobs with root and snare and speed buffs better than a tardboat enchanter will. And with the use of snare, root, harmony and speed buffs, we can be excellent pullers.

[usedtobejubaloftorv]

As I get more experience grouping with my druid I am coming to understand how to play it as a min-maxing powergamer... since you can do so many things (if none as well as a specialist, and not all at once) you need to configure yourself for the group you are with and how the players operate together.

For example, I joined a group with a SK, war, rog, bard, cleric. To start, I picked up the snare role, freeing the bard to do something more productive. Then I picked up the patch heal role so the cleric could use her mana more efficiently on larger heals, throwing in pack regen to lighten the heal load further. After that, the best I could add value was to add damage, so up went DS on the puller/tank, STR on melee dps, and finally surplus mana went to straight up nuking.

Now when we moved camp, cleric couldn't handle the extra healing... so I switched from nuking to cast more heals instead, which enabled the group to more easily adjust to fighting higher level mobs at the new camp.

So I'm figuring out that, as the utility guy in a group (more so than even a bard), my druid's job is first to analyze the group's strengths and weaknesses, patch up any potentially fatal weakness first and then take over roles that free up more specialized classes to concentrate on what they are good at. That way my actions can be translated into maximum effect, if only through the second-order effect of enabling another class to optimize its efficiency in a given situation. The implication of this is that given a different group configuration, my role within it could be completely different.

This kind of approach accepts at the outset that your abilities are duplicated by so many classes that the only unique ability you are likely to have in any given group is evac, and to work that overlap to optimize what others can do.

I'm still working this out here but I think I'm on the right track...

[Flunklesnarkin]

I like druids just for back up heals and ports alone... how can you not like that... never seems like there are enough porters at raids xD

[Fryhole]

The druid is mobile and can solo extremely well, which is worth something at least in this game. If they were required for raids, you'd have the definition of an OP class IMO. Mobility matters, especially if there is no one else to port you around. Most of you would say the Wizard is a worthless class as well, however, they're required to get into Sky & Hate, and are priceless when you need to move around the world in a hurry.

[Softcore PK]

As I get more experience grouping with my druid I am coming to understand how to play it as a min-maxing powergamer... since you can do so many things (if none as well as a specialist, and not all at once) you need to configure yourself for the group you are with and how the players operate together.

For example, I joined a group with a SK, war, rog, bard, cleric. To start, I picked up the snare role, freeing the bard to do something more productive. Then I picked up the patch heal role so the cleric could use her mana more efficiently on larger heals, throwing in pack regen to lighten the heal load further. After that, the best I could add value was to add damage, so up went DS on the puller/tank, STR on melee dps, and finally surplus mana went to straight up nuking.

Now when we moved camp, cleric couldn't handle the extra healing... so I switched from nuking to cast more heals instead, which enabled the group to more easily adjust to fighting higher level mobs at the new camp.

So I'm figuring out that, as the utility guy in a group (more so than even a bard), my druid's job is first to analyze the group's strengths and weaknesses, patch up any potentially fatal weakness first and then take over roles that free up more specialized classes to concentrate on what they are good at. That way my actions can be translated into maximum effect, if only through the second-order effect of enabling another class to optimize its efficiency in a given situation. The implication of this is that given a different group configuration, my role within it could be completely different.

This kind of approach accepts at the outset that your abilities are duplicated by so many classes that the only unique ability you are likely to have in any given group is evac, and to work that overlap to optimize what others can do.

I'm still working this out here but I think I'm on the right track...

This is a very good post :)

[Nagash]

So I'm figuring out that, as the utility guy in a group (more so than even a bard), my druid's job is first to analyze the group's strengths and weaknesses, patch up any potentially fatal weakness first and then take over roles that free up more specialized classes to concentrate on what they are good at. That way my actions can be translated into maximum effect, if only through the second-order effect of enabling another class to optimize its efficiency in a given situation. The implication of this is that given a different group configuration, my role within it could be completely different.

This...

[rafaone]

need to deal with real life for a sec? nuke away until oom and the raid can go on and no one will really miss you too much

Rofl

[Vondra]

I think black and yellow checkered robes and hats should be added to the game and both be required worn components to cast any druid spell.