Alternative to xp loss to prevent bind rushing

[oldfish]

The minecraft pvp server i play uses this as a way to stop people from stone sword rushing:

If you died 1 time in the last 5 min, root for 10sec.
- If you died 2 times in the last 5 min, root for 30sec.
- If you died 3 times in the last 5 min, root for 1min.
- If you died 4 times in the last 5 min, root for 3min.

It doesnt need to be exactly like this, but you get the picture.

I think XP loss is so bad on a pvp server that we should really think hard about a solution to bind rushing so that we are allowed to practice PVP alot without XP loss.

[Softcore PK]

XP loss isn't just to prevent bind camping.

[oldfish]

Thats the only reason i heard people coming up with against removing XP loss, enlighten me?

[Softcore PK]

It helps to make pvp meaningful when losers lose something.

[gloinz]

It helps to make pvp meaningful when losers lose something.

ya instead of wow where its pointless etc

[Softcore PK]

Gloinz just agreed with me! Maybe I'm not as softcore as I thought.. ;)

[oldfish]

You are already losing:

- Coins

- Time (going back to corpse, regenerating mana and health)

I dont see the point in penalizing players even more, because most likely the players who will die alot more are the players who are:

- Not in large roster guilds

- Are worst EQ players, thus need practice the most. I played Rallos for 2 years and even me needs a serious shaping up. Im not sure ill be able to plow through all the excess grind just to be able to PVP. The grind is already bad enough as it is.

As it stands now, the only way i see myself PVPing more than once in a while is when i got a lvl50 to twink a lvl12 with. It shouldnt be like this. I should be able to stop what im doing PVE wise and be able to pvp my ass off, just like classic.

[Softcore PK]

PvP has consequences. This is not some fps game where your life doesn't matter much and when you respawn you want to jump right back into combat. You need to pick your battles as carefully as possible, and when you know you can't win you should want to try your hardest to make it out alive. 99% of the time, coin is hardly a loss at all. And running back to your corpse isn't bad, either.

Death should sting.

[oldfish]

PvP has consequences. This is not some fps game where your life doesn't matter much and when you respawn you want to jump right back into combat. You need to pick your battles as carefully as possible, and when you know you can't win you should want to try your hardest to make it out alive. 99% of the time, coin is hardly a loss at all. And running back to your corpse isn't bad, either.

Death should sting.

But the point of a PVP server is to pvp. If everybody doesnt fight unless its 5v1, wheres the fun in that? Because i guarantee its what will happen after a while, why would fight when you are getting de-leveled and repeatedly crushed? After a while youll just stop trying and avoid pvp or just stop logging in.

I would go at it for hours against terrible odds, but if im going to lose XP over it, i wont. And another thing i guarantee you, is that 90% of the people on red are not as persistant as i am against terrible odds.

Death already stings as it is when you are getting run over by a zerg gank train repeatedly.

Maybe im wrong, but I think im not, I really think that people want to play red99 to PVP.

[Softcore PK]

And pvp we shall. How often do you plan on dying, anyway? :P

[oldfish]

And pvp we shall. How often do you plan on dying, anyway? :P

Have you ever played on Rallos? People would stop and PVP for hours in Gfay, blackburrow, eastern commons. You would die ALOT to twinks, a whole fucking lot. Thats what will inevitably happen a couple of months down the road, and even at launch with zerg guilds.

At least when the odds are terrible with no XP loss, you can shrug it off and keep trying. Even with no xp loss, only the most persistent will persevere.

I dont see this happening with XP loss. I really want a healthy population and red99 to grow. Again, not seeing it happen with XP loss. Just some lulz for big guilds for a while, and then they get bored as well and leave because theres no one to pvp.

[Softcore PK]

I played VZ, where if you died you considered yourself dead (in the zone you died in), and you had to leave that area for at least an hour after getting your corpse. Players shouldn't be running back to pvp where they just died at imo, it's bad form and ruins my immersion.

You die to twinks, go level someplace that has fewer twinks :P

[oldfish]

I played VZ, where if you died you considered yourself dead (in the zone you died in), and you had to leave that area for at least an hour after getting your corpse. Players shouldn't be running back to pvp where they just died at imo, it's bad form and ruins my immersion.

You die to twinks, go level someplace that has fewer twinks :P

But like... where? Imagine the starting zones at launch... you roll a half-elf bard... where else are you going to level beside QH and blackburrow? Unless you wanna run to EC?

Same thing with Eastern Commons, people are gonna die so much it wont be funny. Go get level 8 where? in Oasis?

Which is all fine with me, dying a whole of a fucking lot. Its just... if you make people lose XP as well, i dont see the server growing. Only the big guilds will get ahead and the curve will only get bigger as the server gets older.

One of the only weapon people who arent in a huge zerg guilds like me will have to fight back is our persistence. With XP loss you cant have persistence.

Also, youre gonna enrage some people who are going to repeatedly lose XP in pvp, and the only way for them to get back at people from this XP loss if you are outnumbered is to train so they lose xp as well... and training is not allowed ATM.

[Kain]

Its hard to think of an alternative to item and xp loot, but itemloot has a very strong reward incentive for pvp.

At this point PVP just risks xp with no particular reward beside specific situations. Such as competing for a named spawn or you happen to just really hate the other person for stealing your named spawn lol.

I'm not saying I have an answer, but oldfish mentioned he had 2 years of RZ experience so I think his words should have some weight taken in to consideration.

He does have a very good point regarding the zerg curve IMO.

[Softcore PK]

But like... where? Imagine the starting zones at launch... you roll a half-elf bard... where else are you going to level beside QH and blackburrow? Unless you wanna run to EC?

Same thing with Eastern Commons, people are gonna die so much it wont be funny. Go get level 8 where? in Oasis?

Which is all fine with me, dying a whole of a fucking lot. Its just... if you make people lose XP as well, i dont see the server growing. Only the big guilds will get ahead and the curve will only get bigger as the server gets older.

One of the only weapon people who arent in a huge zerg guilds like me will have to fight back is our persistence. With XP loss you cant have persistence.

By persistence, do you mean bindrushing? :/

There are plenty of places to xp. People in Qeynos can take the boat to Odus if they want, that place isn't bad. And anyway, it's only for an hour or until the people who PK'd you leave/log off. Could be an hour spent increasing your baking skill! The way it worked on VZ, you couldn't be forced to lns from your hometown.

But anyway, I suspect this server will (unfortunately) not be anything like VZ, and things like agreed upon zone control rules won't be in effect. So if players want to continue trying to exp around hostile players, something like this exp loss needs to be in place in an effort to deter them.

And as for players not being rewarded enough for pking people? I vote we don't reward in-game murderers anymore than they already are. If anything, they should receive a faction hit when they kill someone.

[oldfish]

So if players want to continue trying to exp around hostile players, something like this exp loss needs to be in place in an effort to deter them.


Why?

Why should we deter players from attempting to get back their XP spot after getting engaged by hostiles?

Why should players run away, log off, go baking, at the first sign of trouble on a pvp server?

[gnomishfirework]

XP loss on death will get you really good at pvp really fast (or at least good at running).

It's far better than no xp loss. Death should hurt.

[Softcore PK]

Why?

Why should we deter players from attempting to get back their XP spot after getting engaged by hostiles?

Because they lost already, and are dead.

Why should players run away, log off, go baking, at the first sign of trouble on a pvp server?

Because death sucks.

[Kain]

I was thinking item gained/item lost is still an equal balance, but faction penalty is an interesting idea.

I figure it might make trading harder unless you can trust someone with all your PP/Items.

Haha imagine you get pked on the boat to Odus.

Even if your dead you still have to go back to get your gear.
Honestly I have no interest in learning to bake in EQ (wtf?) haha

[oldfish]

XP loss on death will get you really good at pvp really fast (or at least good at running).

It's far better than no xp loss. Death should hurt.

Thats part of the point i tried making through my posts.

Death already hurts, and newer people/people in smaller guilds will already sit more on their ass on downtime from deaths, do more corpse runs, than people who are better at the game than they are.

How will you ever get better vs better equipped, better organized people, if your only option is to run away when you are faced with handicapped odds? Youre not gonna get better at PVP this way, youre only going to get better at avoiding PVP, and im sure this will get boring real fast to most people.

You dont get better at skating sitting on a bench after a fall, you get better at skating by doing it. People will only get better at PVP through PVPing and learning what works and what doesnt.

[Tombom]

welcome to eq oldfish =/

[oldfish]

welcome to eq oldfish =/

Hmmm? Im a Rallos vet

[vinx]

Why?

Why should we deter players from attempting to get back their XP spot after getting engaged by hostiles?

Why should players run away, log off, go baking, at the first sign of trouble on a pvp server?
This is all covered in the LnS thread

LnS = dont come back till we done here, we killed you once and want to continue farming/expin this area...one less person to worry about/watch our backs from

It prevents bind rushers and people who dont respect the LnS rules with xp loss

[Kain]

Yeah was thinking the same as you oldfish. In fact, I'd request you stop reading my thoughts and saying stuff before I say them.

Edit: Wait, so Vinx were just supposed to leave our corpses and really log off?

[oldfish]

This is all covered in the LnS thread

LnS = dont come back till we done here, we killed you once and want to continue farming/expin this area...one less person to worry about/watch our backs from

It prevents bind rushers and people who dont respect the LnS rules with xp loss

First of all, whats this "bind rush" thing? You cant bind rush with low health or mana, nor can you do this on a melee character without your gear/health.

It takes me about 8 minutes on a naked LVL12 wiz IIRC to go from death health/mana bars to full. How is that rushing?

That seems awfully carebear to me, this "bindrush" speak. I would keep that stuff for msging GMs on blue that someone stole your camp. It seems just another way to ensure that powerful guilds get access to the best shit EZ mode style.

[vinx]

I dont see this happening with XP loss. I really want a healthy population and red99 to grow. Again, not seeing it happen with XP loss. Just some lulz for big guilds for a while, and then they get bored as well and leave because theres no one to pvp.
I think the whole idea of this server is so we dont have the poopsock fest and problems that we have on P99
being true to EQlive PVP is eh, in the spirit of things.
but moreso, so that players can solve some of the disputes on their own

= the reason for the xp loss

[Lulz Sect]

i die all the fucking time - xp loss from pvp is fair

[vinx]

Edit: Wait, so Vinx were just supposed to leave our corpses and really log off?
well if you only play once a month it could be a problem in a few years when you finally have gear worth saving

[oldfish]

I think the whole idea of this server is so we dont have the poopsock fest and problems that we have on P99
being true to EQlive PVP is eh, in the spirit of things.
but moreso, so that players can solve some of the disputes on their own

= the reason for the xp loss

How is XP loss even related to solving disputes, disputes got resolved through pvp all the time on Rallos without XP loss.

Its just starting to dawn on me that XP loss is going to be just an EZ mode for big guilds to dominate the server where they force people to stop trying to PVP them by crushing opposition with overwhelming odds leading to XP loss.

I might be wrong but thats how i see it right now.

[Softcore PK]

LnS - Loot and Scoot. Emphasis on the scoot in this thread.. lol.

EDIT: And lns isn't a huge advantage for the big guys over the little guys. What you, oldfish, are saying does not make a whole lot of sense. If the smaller guild can bindrush back to where the big guild is, what's stopping the big guild from doing the same on the rare occasion they lose?

With an lns system, when the smaller guild does manage to defeat the bigger guild, the bigger guild has to get their stuff and leave. Gear and numbers are always going to be a plus in these fights, but I really don't think lns gives an advantage to either side. It's simple: whoever wins the fight the first time gets the camp/boss/whatever.

[vinx]

xp loss is just a tool for minimizing PVP
its basically P99 turned red (its NOT a RZ/VZ/TZ/SZ recreation)

all that matters is how endgame is handled
in which case PVP will do justice for the strong and create a different/fun atmosphere on endgame targets versus the poopsock

[oldfish]

xp loss is just a tool for minimizing PVP
its basically P99 turned red

all that matters is how endgame is handled
in which case PVP will do justice for the strong and create a different/fun atmosphere on endgame targets versus the poopsock

So basically its a PVE server where people are avoiding PVP most of the times and where GMs dont have to get involved in poopsocking disputes during end game.

Sounds like a fun pvp server...

[Softcore PK]

So basically its a PVE server where people are avoiding PVP most of the times and where GMs dont have to get involved in poopsocking disputes during end game.

Sounds like a fun pvp server...

If anyone's avoiding pvp most of the time, it's only because they decided not to take that risk. Not to be mean, but you're the one that sounds scared and blue..

[vinx]

So basically its a PVE server where people are avoiding PVP most of the times and where GMs dont have to get involved in poopsocking disputes during end game.

Sounds like a fun pvp server...
basically yes, you forget your on an emulated server...
guys who are doing this for xp, not some company that wants to or needs to

they dont want to babysit your ass 24/7

[oldfish]

If anyone's avoiding pvp most of the time, it's only because they decided not to take that risk. Not to be mean, but you're the one that sounds scared and blue..

I can garantee you that once people get steamrolled by the big guilds, thats what they will do.

Theres no "risk" you will get steamrolled.

With no xp loss you could try having fun getting around these odds, just like on Rallos.

Ill still play the server if XP loss is in, just to see what happens. Maybe im wrong and it wont be as bad as i think, but id be willing to bet my first 1000 plat on it.

[Lulz Sect]

all i hear is

http://i.imgur.com/Bm5oF.jpg

[Kain]

I understand the part about GM's not wanting to get involved past coding to avoid disputes.

However "avoiding pvp most of the times" doesn't sound like an open field battle to me.

Sounds like PvP Hunters grouped up looking for prey that's logged off or hiding in the city. That doesn't sound very exciting. For the hunter or the prey.

Avoiding PvP wouldn't be a result of being scared and blue, but it would come as a result of being practical.

Example: 5 guys that are higher level and grouped just ganked you. You have no guild, your low level, naked. So now you log off or start baking?

[Softcore PK]

I can garantee you that once people get steamrolled by the big guilds, thats what they will do.

Theres no "risk" you will get steamrolled.

With no xp loss you could try having fun getting around these odds, just like on Rallos.

I dunno what to tell you :/

EQ is not a fps. Dying has consequences, and it's a social game. People that kill you for no reason are bad guys. Bad guys are mean, and mean people cause us exp loss. You can be a bad guy if you want, too, but then you'll have to be mean :(

It adds to the immersion when the bad guys are mean. We don't like the bad guys, and the bad guys revel in our losses. Things become a little more real, you know? It's not a big FFA deathmatch where everyone kills everyone and they all laugh about it.

[oldfish]

I dunno what to tell you :/

EQ is not a fps. Dying has consequences, and it's a social game. People that kill you for no reason are bad guys. Bad guys are mean, and mean people cause us exp loss. You can be a bad guy if you want too, but then you'll have to be mean :(

It adds to the immersion when the bad guys are mean. We don't like the bad guys, and the bad guys revel in our losses. Things become a little more real, you know? It's not a big FFA deathmatch where everyone kills everyone and they all laugh about it.

Im not sure how many ways i can put this to you, so ill try one last time and then ill stop.

Consequences:

- Coin loss

- Corpse runs

- Downtime after each death, which you will get a whole of a lot of if you are not zerging.

- slower leveling as a consequence of not being part of the overwhelming odds team

[Dweed]

People can and will deal with exp loss accordingly, but the problem is that the way to deal with it is to never engage in a risky/challenging fight.

Would people rather a constant brawl throughout their leveling experience?
Or would they rather a game where sneaking around and leaving/logging at the first sign of competition is commonplace?

I'm not here to argue one or the other, either way people will make it work and adapt. But the issue is that one of these promotes pvp and the other promotes survival.

Both have their own merits of fun/strategy. But I'd guarantee removing the exp penalty would greatly promote how often pvp takes place, as well as increase the server's long-term population.

Once twinks exist a few months down the road, if the exp loss is still in place, I sure hope there is something else in place to keep new people interested.

[Softcore PK]

Im not sure how many ways i can put this to you, so ill try one last time and then ill stop.

Consequences:

- Coin loss

- Corpse runs

- Downtime after each death, which you will get a whole of a lot of if you are not zerging.

- slower leveling as a consequence of not being part of the overwhelming odds team

I understand what you are saying, and in response to that I am saying that those consequences are hardly consequences. On VZ, the real consequence was losing the right to the zone you died in. Here, without exp loss (and maybe even with it), people are not going to follow the VZ lns rule. It's a different community, for better or worse.

So the devs had to introduce a new consequence, one that's hard-coded and unavoidable. And I feel it was a very good idea :)

[oldfish]

People can and will deal with exp loss accordingly, but the problem is that the way to deal with it is to never engage in a risky/challenging fight.

Would people rather a constant brawl throughout their leveling experience?
Or would they rather a game where sneaking around and leaving/logging at the first sign of competition is commonplace?

I'm not here to argue one or the other, either way people will make it work and adapt. But the issue is that one of these promotes pvp and the other promotes survival.

Both have their own merits of fun/strategy. But I'd guarantee removing the exp penalty would greatly promote how often pvp takes place, as well as increase the server's long-term population.

Once twinks exist a few months down the road, if the exp loss is still in place, I sure hope there is something else in place to keep new people interested.

This guy gets it

[Kain]

What concerns me is the Survival game will largely favor the twinks that are already set to go.

Its the newcomers that will be screwed.

Bleh I'm too tired I'm going to sleep* but basically I'm siding with oldfish and Dweed on this debate.

[vinx]

What concerns me is the Survival game will largely favor the twinks that are already set to go.

Its the newcomers that will be screwed.
Twinks are a byproduct of endgame people (or guilds)
endgame people/guilds have huge time investments


who is the server catering to??
Its nice to just throw up a server, but really...
you want people to play it

If you want twinks or be in raid/engame pvp ... you will need to stick it out

[Softcore PK]

What concerns me is the Survival game will largely favor the twinks that are already set to go.

Its the newcomers that will be screwed.

If you're worried about this, why not do all you can to help the newcomers? I plan on making friends with the newcomers by healing and buffing them when I'm of a higher level. Spending time in CB watching over the nooblings as they grow sounds like a lot of fun :P

And we can always make twinks, too. It would be cool to make a twink to help protect the new people from the bad guy twinks imo.

Taking out the exp loss would cheapen the entire experience.

[Dweed]

Taking out the exp loss would cheapen the entire experience.

No, it would not.

And your answer to this server never getting new players after the first few months is "I'm going to help for 2 hours every few weeks!" Get real.

[Softcore PK]

No, it would not.

And your answer to this server never getting new players after the first few months is "I'm going to help for 2 hours every few weeks!" Get real.

Also: the sky is falling! :O

[Kain]

Yes the server caters to those who plays longer, but you have to leave open the chance that there will be newcomers who will lose interest fast if they can't even play the game due to some lvl 5 with a mith 2 hander.

Counter twinking for anti pvp does sound interesting... If enough people participates it would be pretty cool.

Ahh I passed up drinking and meeting girls to post on a forum debate, I think there's something wrong with me. Ok G'night!

[oldfish]

Taking out the exp loss would cheapen the entire experience.

Like dweed articulated it much better than i did, its a question of what you want for the server.

Do you want a low pop "hide and seek" server where only big guilds get to jump people or a higher pop PVP server where pvp happens regularly and everyone gets to join in as much as theyd like?

[Softcore PK]

I honestly don't believe this changes the game from "pvp" to "survival". You do know that the exp loss is going to be pretty small, right? Not a full pve death, that would be going way too far. PvP will happen regularly, whether we like it or not. And if we're dying, we're not supposed to like it all that much! XD

And of course, you are free to join in as much as you want! Don't let some minor exp loss deter you from anything!

[Dweed]

Also: the sky is falling! :O

Well thought out answer.

Having a conversation on the ramifications of pvp exp loss as a whole on the server is a legitimate concern.

Every other thread here is filled with people's concerns of what will happen to this server in the long run. There is no doubt EQ pvp servers have a history of stagnant populations. It does no harm to discuss what the pros and cons of this system might truly bring.

As it is now, the penalties for loosing in pvp is huge, while the benefits are minimal.

[Softcore PK]

Well thought out answer.

Having a conversation on the ramifications of pvp exp loss as a whole on the server is a legitimate concern.

Every other thread here is filled with people's concerns of what will happen to this server in the long run. There is no doubt EQ pvp servers have a history of stagnant populations. It does no harm to discuss what the pros and cons of this system might truly bring.

As it is now, the penalties for loosing in pvp is huge, while the benefits are minimal.

Mmm, that's the thing though. This isn't so huge, especially at lower levels. It seemed to me from my time on beta that a pvp death takes less than a blue of exp. It's a deterrent, yes, but a huge one? No.

[Tombom]

I am fine with the xp penalty and support a heavy penalty for death in general, play smart.

However, I don't think that this server is ready for the grief storm that is headed it's way. Smart rational player gets bind camped or grief'd he /qs for a bit and comes back unharmed. Not a lot of smart rational people that i've encountered so far. The population is going to take a huge dip once people realize that the 5 hours they spent killing blues is wasted in 4 or 5 deaths.

[Tombom]

PS excited to see who stays mid 30s as a druid and griefs the shit out of lvling nubs

[oldfish]

To me its glaringly obvious what will happen with XP loss, pvp will happen alot less often. I just dont know how much fun i can have on a PVP server where if i decide to have a 5 hour PVP session i have to deal with the fact that i will have to grind some XP back in PVE.

PVE is already grindy enough, weve most of us done it all on blue, I just cant see the benefits either of having XP loss. It will most likely mean less population, more power for zerg guilds, and it probably will have a spiral effect where people leave because theres less people to PVP with...

[gloinz]

To me its glaringly obvious what will happen with XP loss, pvp will happen alot less often. I just dont know how much fun i can have on a PVP server where if i decide to have a 5 hour PVP session i have to deal with the fact that i will have to grind some XP back in PVE.

PVE is already grindy enough, weve most of us done it all on blue, I just cant see the benefits either of having XP loss. It will most likely mean less population, more power for zerg guilds, and it probably will have a spiral effect where people leave because theres less people to PVP with...

play wow for 2 secs and see how meaningless it is and then u might know y imo

[Softcore PK]

I feel the sort of player to quit over a tiny bit of exp loss would be the sort that would quit after dealing with Holocaust/Fish Bait encounters anyway. And this is EQ, original home of devastating exp loss. It doesn't seem to be scaring too many people away from Blue99.

[oldfish]

play wow for 2 secs and see how meaningless it is and then u might know y imo

Ive played Rallos for 2 years... people play on a PVP server to PVP i would suppose...

Theres no meaning in EQ pvp anyway, its not like im gaining territory in 00 in eve... the pvp is meaningless, im fine with it. I enjoy it for its own sake, because i like to pvp, I dont need some more hurdles to make pvp boring on top of sitting down for 5-10 minutes to med, corpse running, before you can pvp again each time you die.

The corpse runs, the downtime is already boring enough, and youre adding more PVE grind on top of each death. The people who are going to bear the majority of the boredom burden are the new guys and the small guilds.

You can still chase some people away from a camp by PVPing them. Xp loss is just too much, and i want this server to have a healthy population because i want to keep having fun PVPing on it.

I feel the sort of player to quit over a tiny bit of exp loss would be the sort that would quit after dealing with Holocaust/Fish Bait encounters anyway. And this is EQ, original home of devastating exp loss. It doesn't seem to be scaring too many people away from Blue99.

I call bullshit on this. I feel the sort of player who isnt able to contemplate a 6 hour session of PVP and the PVE grind to get back xp afterwards it implies doesnt really want to pvp.

[Dweed]

I feel the sort of player to quit over a tiny bit of exp loss would be the sort that would quit after dealing with Holocaust/Fish Bait encounters anyway. And this is EQ, original home of devastating exp loss. It doesn't seem to be scaring too many people away from Blue99.

Stop thinking that its about the exp loss by itself, its about anything that deters pvp by such a large degree.

In one world I see brawls and fights that go on for hours just for the fun of it.
In the other I see people leaving/logging after 2 deaths because the exp loss will cost them too much time.

If you want it to be killing people to get them out of a zone entirely because the risks, then that is absolutely fine and has many of its own merits.

However, some of us here think the idea of no exp loss promoting enemies to return for round 3, 4 and 5+ sounds like way more fun.

[Softcore PK]

Ive played Rallos for 2 years... people play on a PVP server to PVP i would suppose...

Theres no meaning in EQ pvp anyway, its not like im gaining territory in 00 in eve... the pvp is meaningless, im fine with it. I enjoy it for its own sake, because i like to pvp, I dont need some more hurdles to make pvp boring on top of sitting down for 5-10 minutes to med, corpse running, before you can pvp again each time you die.

The corpse runs, the downtime is already boring enough, and youre adding more PVE grind on top of each death. The people who are going to bear the majority of the boredom burden are the new guys and the small guilds.

You can still chase some people away from a camp by PVPing them. Xp loss is just too much, and i want this server to have a healthy population because i want to keep having fun PVPing on it.

So you don't care for meaningful pvp, and just wanna have fun. This is understandable, and it's a viable playstyle in most every modern MMO today.

But I'm really glad that the devs have decided on this exp loss system :)

Anyway, we've been going in circles for hours. Goodnight, friends!

[Softcore PK]

ok one more post

Stop thinking that its about the exp loss by itself, its about anything that deters pvp.

In one world I see brawls and fights that go on for hours just for the fun.
In the other I see people leaving/logging after 2 deaths because the exp loss will cost them too much time.

If you want it to be killing people to get them out of a zone entirely because the risks, then that is absolutely fine and has many of its own merits.

However, some of us here think the idea of no exp loss promoting enemies to return for round 3, 4 and 5+ sounds like way more fun.

I understand what you're saying, too. You wanna fight people! Because it's fun and maybe why you played EQ live.

Well what I want, are for these fights to matter. People should have to think about why they're getting into fights, and if the risks involved are worth fighting anyway. There's more opportunity for roleplay this way, and it's simply more realistic. Realism is a good thing, and it's something I've found every other mmo in existence to be lacking. EQ was the happy exception.

[gloinz]

Stop thinking that its about the exp loss by itself, its about anything that deters pvp by such a large degree.

In one world I see brawls and fights that go on for hours just for the fun of it.
In the other I see people leaving/logging after 2 deaths because the exp loss will cost them too much time.

If you want it to be killing people to get them out of a zone entirely because the risks, then that is absolutely fine and has many of its own merits.

However, some of us here think the idea of no exp loss promoting enemies to return for round 3, 4 and 5+ sounds like way more fun.

ya sounds fun killing the same person over and over for no reason

guess ur right

[Chronoburn]

I thought RZ peoples were hardcore.

[oldfish]

I sure hope Rogean and Null and the rest take a look at this thread, Im sure they can see where we are going with this, and give it a hard thought.

[gloinz]

I thought RZ peoples were hardcore.

oldfish making them seem like zerg rushing newbs

sz stands the test as the server with manly men imo

[Chronoburn]

sz stands the test as the server with manly men imo

Especially neuts.

[Dweed]

ya sounds fun killing the same person over and over for no reason

guess ur right

The idea of a group of duoers/soloers slowly building up the numbers/strength to overcome an organized group that's taken over a zone is what sounds like a blast to me. For both parties involved.

It's an escalation of pvp. If everyone leaves/logs after a fight how is that better?

[gloinz]

The idea of a group of duoers/soloers slowly building up the numbers/strength to overcome an organized group that's taken over a zone is what sounds like a blast to me. For both parties involved.

It's an escalation of pvp. If everyone leaves/logs after a fight how is that better?

you can do this without dying 30 times fyi its called /ooc hey who wants to kill those zerglings 5 paladin lfg

[juicedsixfo]

Sure seems like the majority of you never played RZ. I don't doubt it, I mean, it was 12 years ago. But let me tell you something about it as someone who played RZ on day 1 - it wasn't red. Not even in the slightest. PKs were frowned upon. Don't get me wrong, PvP happened, especially in my guild which was basically formed up of a bunch of old UO players.

But the beauty of RZ was that it had a community of blue, red, purple, and pink. Stop trying to make it something it wasn't. It's not a first person shooter. It's the same old game with PvP turned /on, that's it. Play it how you want.

[Pudge]

didn't read thread.

but the only reason for exp loss in my mind is bind rushing.

it is enough of a loss to be killed, ported to bind naked, and lose the pve you were battling over. if there is an alternative to prevent bind rushing (ex: can't enter the zone you died in in for the next 30 minutes (and i mean, SERVER CONTROLLED, no exceptions - unless rezed) that is also a good solution.

[Pudge]

actually. i just thought of that shit on the spot, and think it's a damn good solution to the "zone control" pvp aspect. if you get killed in a zone - perhaps only a RAID zone - you CANNOT enter it for the next 60 minutes. seems like the perfect answer to bind rush for me.

maybe 20 minutes for non-raid zones.

DO IT ROGEAN


DO IT.

[Pudge]

FOR SRS

[oldfish]

didn't read thread.

but the only reason for exp loss in my mind is bind rushing.

it is enough of a loss to be killed, ported to bind naked, and lose the pve you were battling over. if there is an alternative to prevent bind rushing (ex: can't enter the zone you died in in for the next 30 minutes (and i mean, SERVER CONTROLLED, no exceptions - unless rezed) that is also a good solution.

I really dont get this bind rushing thing... have any of you guys played on a Zek server? If someone killed you in a zone, you didnt take your shit and run most of the times... It was pvp time. You called for guild backup, you snuck back there and got intel on where the guys were so you could jump em back with your folks... According to you guys its take my shit and run time. Wheres the pvp in your pvp server?

To me when i thought bind rushing, i had in mind some high lvl chanter sitting on a multiple caster bind clarity'ing a bunch of casters who got right back to fukn people up... youre talkin about a single guy zoning in to where his corpse is? Holy blue pvp server Batman!

[Pudge]

to be honest.. if it's "bind rush till you log off" pvp, then guilds will just zerg chain bind rush till the other side has to log off. which is kinda gay.

it's happened on vztz, i think knuckle was actually a GM at the time, he can tell you about one particular incident which lasted approximately 5 hours. bind in everfrost, rush perma, get killed, repeat

[Pudge]

making a hard lock-out if you get pvpined in a raid zone will make for real tactical decisions. stay at zone-in? or set up to PvP deep inside?

[oldfish]

to be honest.. if it's "bind rush till you log off" pvp, then guilds will just zerg chain bind rush till the other side has to log off. which is kinda gay.

it's happened on vztz, i think knuckle was actually a GM at the time, he can tell you about one particular incident which lasted approximately 5 hours. bind in everfrost, rush perma, get killed, repeat

But really, so what? The "rushing" anyway takes about 5-10mins (medding)... thats what Zek servers were like, you should have seen people training the Undead dragon at the rathe mountain zone line at the halloween event in 2001, there was like a hundred corpses at the zone line with that dragon AOEing for like 300+ and people bound behind the zone line getting right back in there killing each other... that was a Zek server. And it was beautiful.

You dont need to log off anyway... you can just move elsewhere.

I dont see how a guild Zerg bind "rushing" a smaller guild, giving them XP loss on top of overwhelming them with a bind "rush" will make things any fairer? At least with no XP loss the smaller guild can try to fight back, even if the odds are against them. With the xp loss system, it feels like whoever has the biggest zerg wins, and youre not supposed to fight back, just pack your shit and leave the area, which is lame to me.

I wasnt part of the raid scene on blue99, but it sounds like a re-hash of the zerg poopsocking that happened over there a year ago.

[mostbitter]

What really boggles my mind about the proponents of the experience penalty is that they think that a measure which will encourage people to play the game less is somehow healthy for the server. I also don't at all agree with the sentiment that there needs to be an extra penalty for pvp death. You're already losing all your mana, gear, and buffs. This means in order to get back to your full potential you need to med, buff, and run back to your corpse, otherwise you're just fodder.

Furthermore I don't see an experience penalty being a huge deterrant for people who are going to play here. I speak from experiences such as being in plane of fear and watching guilds train each other back and forth for hours on end until one of them finally gave up and went to sleep. I DO expect that this will be an extra mechanic for griefing, as if everquest really needed one more.

I also don't believe that stating in the rules that training is frowned upon will have any legitimate impact on a server where there is not 24/7 gm policing.


My opinion of the experience penalty on death is that it's just extra grief. Most of the time when people die in pvp they are in a dungeon so they are typically running minimally one or two zones back to loot their corpse which equates typically to around 5-10 minutes. Casters will also be forced to med and buff which typically equates to another 10 minutes. If you add experience penalty to death which is the equivalent of the experience you would get for killing one mob you're probably adding another 10 minutes.

Each pvp death with an exp penalty now equates to potentially 30 minutes of downtime IF you are only killed in pvp the one time which I think we can all admit isn't typically the case.

a hypothetical with exp penalty: group A rolls into guk and wants to steal a camp from single player B. A risks nothing and slaughters B. B comes back to loot corpse and A kills him again. B has now lost 40-45 minutes of his time. B has the option of either going back to A to risk another 15-20 minutes or logging off.


a hypothetical without exp penalty: group A rolls into guk and wants to steal a camp from single player B. A risks nothing and slaughters B. B comes back to loot corpse and A kills him again. B has now lost 30-35 minutes of his time. B has the option of either going back to A to risk another 5-10 minutes or logging off.

It's great to assume that experience penalty on death is going to prevent bind rushing (which is typically a non factor anyway as I've personally never seen any large guild who wins a pvp fight die to the guild they just steamrolled coming back with less powerful characters) but I'm certain that the reality will be that the level of grief people experience will just be increased.

[Smedy]

But the point of a PVP server is to pvp. If everybody doesnt fight unless its 5v1, wheres the fun in that? Because i guarantee its what will happen after a while, why would fight when you are getting de-leveled and repeatedly crushed? After a while youll just stop trying and avoid pvp or just stop logging in.

Well part of the fun in exp death is fearing the actual death, the fear of losing something.

It has to feel like shit is on the line for me to get a kick out of the game, if i get rooted 3 minutes, that's bullshit punishment.

If you're going down to gankers you need to play better, there's millions of ways to avoid death in eq and if you're rollin alone, well then you took the hard road.

[oldfish]

Well part of the fun in exp death is fearing the actual death, the fear of losing something.

It has to feel like shit is on the line for me to get a kick out of the game, if i get rooted 3 minutes, that's bullshit punishment.

If you're going down to gankers you need to play better, there's millions of ways to avoid death in eq and if you're rollin alone, well then you took the hard road.

I did explain repeatedly in this thread though that sitting down twiddling your thumbs for 10mins is already punishment, so is walking 2 zones to your corpse, so is losing all the coins on you.

Thats losing something, time, coins. Shit is on the line.

Most of the times it will be gankers going down to you, and of course by 5v1 i mean 8v3 etc etc

Again and again, ive played Rallos for 2 years. I already know that repeated pvp deaths alone in itself is harsh, even for someone as patient as me. I guarantee you players will drop like flies with XP loss.

Sitting on ass for 10mins each time you die is already bad enough without adding on top extra PVE grind. If people are content with a purple "hide n seek" server where a majority of players ducks after the first death, great. I know ill probably get bored quickly.

People will get so irritated that they will train to get back at xp loss they sometimes cant really avoid, im pretty sure, and the rules make it illegal.

Now you have to decide if that guy who died with 4 orcs on his ass was intentionally training or not. (again a reason why i think training should be allowed)

Do you guys realize how long the walk is from Queynos to inside of BlackBurrow? From WFP to Oasis? People waiting at zone lines? Seriously. This XP loss is just lol

I foresee a shitstorm, well see.

Im not trying to come off as irritating or being intentionally polemic, honestly, i really think this is going to hurt the server population.

I want to play here, and i want the server to be fun. Which is why im pushing for this.

If Rogean/other devs say its final, then ill go with it. It seems to be in limbo right now which is why were discussing it.

[Lazortag]

How about we see if bind rushing is a problem after launch, instead of coming up with solutions to a problem that may not exist before launch. My guess is that it won't be an issue, mostly because this is a classic server and casters will respawn with 0 mana, and training won't be allowed. On top of exp loss this makes bind rushing a very small problem.

[oldfish]

How about we see if bind rushing is a problem after launch, instead of coming up with solutions to a problem that may not exist before launch. My guess is that it won't be an issue, mostly because this is a classic server and casters will respawn with 0 mana, and training won't be allowed. On top of exp loss this makes bind rushing a very small problem.

That was the whole point of the thread though, that i didnt like xp loss and we should find a way to get rid of it because it will most likely make PVP happen less often.

I think its better to discuss it earlier than get surprised by it at launch, although we covered alot of ground in this thread about the pros and cons of having or not XP loss, i think it was best articulated by dweed.

[Softcore PK]

How about we see if bind rushing is a problem after launch, instead of coming up with solutions to a problem that may not exist before launch. My guess is that it won't be an issue, mostly because this is a classic server and casters will respawn with 0 mana, and training won't be allowed. On top of exp loss this makes bind rushing a very small problem.

Bind rushing isn't what oldfish thinks it is. Even if it takes a person 30 minutes to make it back to the spot they were PK'd at, if they come back and fight for the exp spot they already lost it is bind rushing. And maybe it won't be an issue, but judging by all the people in this thread that seem to feel that bind rushing is a legitimate tactic, I'd say it will be.

With exp loss, these bind rushers are deterred from bind rushing. They lost, they need to get over it and move on. Without the exp loss, I fear it would just become commonplace to corpse camp to preemptively keep the bind rushers at bay. Which wastes time for the people who won the right to the zone/raid/exo spot, and wastes time for the bind rushers.

[Crazerous]

yeah losing xp on pvp deaths is pretty stupid. Ok so its one thing having no item loot, but replacing that with LOSING xp sucks.

[Softcore PK]

yeah losing xp on pvp deaths is pretty stupid. Ok so its one thing having no item loot, but replacing that with LOSING xp sucks.

How can you support item loot and at the same time denounce exp loss for being too harsh? :P

[gloinz]

yeah losing xp on pvp deaths is pretty stupid. Ok so its one thing having no item loot, but replacing that with LOSING xp sucks.

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/5040/bluesbieseverywhere.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/bluesbieseverywhere.jpg/)

[oldfish]

Which wastes time for the people who won the right to the zone/raid/exo spot, and wastes time for the bind rushers.

This is where Softcore PK is blue, he thinks that he should permanently win the right to an XP spot, just like calling a camp on blue and calls PVPing a waste of time.

[Softcore PK]

This is where Softcore PK is blue, he thinks that he should permanently win the right to an XP spot, just like calling a camp on blue and calls PVPing a waste of time.

I'm as red as they come, babe ;)

EQ is a pve game. With limited pve resources, pvp is a fun means of staking claim to those resources.. or losing out on them. And pvp can of course be a fun activity to do in its own right; Tunare knows I used to travel Norrath with a group of like-minded elves laying waste to any and all shorts, humans and darks we came across. And you'll still be able to do so.. what's stopping you?

And if you want to bind rush, you're free to do that too. If you do it too much to me though, you'll be corpse camped and hopefully you lose a lot of exp. Because I consider it to be griefing, and losers need to know when they're beat. If you want to log in sometime and do nothing but pvp, there's nothing wrong with going to different zones to find that pvp when you lose in another zone. Mix it up imo.

[Amuk]

The only part I don't get is "corpse camping is frowned upon" aka I don't give a shit and will kill any naked person I see over, and over etc. I like the idea of exp loss personally, keep the bind rushing fgts commen - I'll exp them down to lvl 1.

At first I thought it was bad too, but I've seen the capabilities of some no life retards that will just keep comming all night.

[Amuk]

I'm as red as they come, babe ;)

EQ is a pve game. With limited pve resources, pvp is a fun means of staking claim to those resources.. or losing out on them. And pvp can of course be a fun activity to do in its own right; Tunare knows I used to travel Norrath with a group of like-minded elves laying waste to any and all shorts, humans and darks we came across. And you'll still be able to do so.. what's stopping you?

And if you want to bind rush, you're free to do that too. If you do it too much to me though, you'll be corpse camped and hopefully you lose a lot of exp. Because I consider it to be griefing, and losers need to know when they're beat. If you want to log in sometime and do nothing but pvp, there's nothing wrong with going to different zones to find that pvp when you lose in another zone. Mix it up imo.

.................................................. .................................................. Really tempted to eat a forum warning on this.

[Softcore PK]

.................................................. .................................................. Really tempted to eat a forum warning on this.

i dare you XD

[mostbitter]

Softcore is in for a rude awakening when he figures out how often the people on this server are going to corpse camp and bind camp each other. Dude's also stickin his head in the ground and repeating the same shit in this thread. Faggot also refers to tunare as a real diety. Looking forward to griefing the shit out of him with the exp pen on pvp death mechanic he thinks he is in love with.

[PlayervsDen]

Softcore is in for a rude awakening when he figures out how often the people on this server are going to corpse camp and bind camp each other. Dude's also stickin his head in the ground and repeating the same shit in this thread. Faggot also refers to tunare as a real diety. Looking forward to griefing the shit out of him with the exp pen on pvp death mechanic he thinks he is in love with.

Im going to enjoy killing people like this on the server.

[Kain]

I'm still wondering what were supposed to do regarding our gear if we die in a camp spot.

Are we supposed to just stay away and be naked for an hour? What do melees do?

Even if we go back to loot n scoot it will probably just end in having two corpses.

[Softcore PK]

I'm still wondering what were supposed to do regarding our gear if we die in a camp spot.

Are we supposed to just stay away and be naked for an hour? What do melees do?

Even if we go back to loot n scoot it will probably just end in having two corpses.

Try communicating (POLITELY!) with the people who PKed you. Ask them if they will allow lns. If no, you could risk running in and pulling your corpse away.. or just not try until they have left the area. If yes, hope they are telling the truth and go in and loot, then get out of the zone immediately.

And if they are lying, remember their names, and their guild. Be extra wary of them in the future. Eventually you'll have a good idea of who's extra mean and who is nice.

The guild I am joining at release will always allow lns, so long as you don't forget the s part and aren't a known griefer :)

[Kain]

Maybe in old EQ, but with all the trolls/griefers I seem to encounter online, I'm a bit skeptical about your polite EQ community of bad guys and good guys.

My experience with the internetz these days is that people just don't give a flying monkey, and are in it for the "lulz"

[Softcore PK]

Maybe in old EQ, but with all the trolls/griefers I seem to encounter online, I'm a bit skeptical about your polite EQ community of bad guys and good guys.

My experience with the internetz these days is that people just don't give a flying monkey, and are in it for the "lulz"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMune1KgM4&feature=related

I bet a lot of players will surprise you.. and just as many will make you roll your eyes in distaste. Never forget, though, that you're much more likely to be shown respect if you're known for giving it.

EQ pvp is a wonderful example of a sandbox MMO.. you can be whoever you want, and people will react accordingly.

[Kain]

I would never grief unless I was after vengeance.

Times have changed and war is coming on Red99.

I expect no mercy, and neither should you.

[Softcore PK]

I would never grief unless I was after vengeance.

Times have changed and war is coming on Red99.

I expect no mercy, and neither should you.

Of course, expectations are dangerous here :P

But you won't grief under normal circumstances, and neither will I. That must say something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1116Qqd8tk&NR=1

[PlayervsDen]

I bet a lot of players will surprise you.. and just as many will make you roll your eyes in distaste. Never forget, though, that you're much more likely to be shown respect if you're known for giving it.

[oldfish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMune1KgM4&feature=related

I bet a lot of players will surprise you.. and just as many will make you roll your eyes in distaste. Never forget, though, that you're much more likely to be shown respect if you're known for giving it.

EQ pvp is a wonderful example of a sandbox MMO.. you can be whoever you want, and people will react accordingly.

Right, just politely ask a zerg guild called <Holocaust> "May i get my corpse back, kind sir?" and be respectful, and things might just turn out ok for you.

[Softcore PK]

such pessimism :(

[oldfish]

I dont want to come across like im overly negative... I just want this server to be teh awesome and attract a large population that stays.

[PlayervsDen]

Right, just politely ask a zerg guild called <Holocaust> "May i get my corpse back, kind sir?" and be respectful, and things might just turn out ok for you.

exactly lol... you just dont have to make it look like ur sucking up....

[oldfish]

exactly lol... you just dont have to make it look like ur sucking up....

I was being ironic, being polite and respectful doesnt work on people that their driving motive is to grief people. Which is why i cringe at the thought of XP loss and a zerg guild called Holocaust. Not for me cuz ill stay probably no matter what (unless the pop gets stupid low) but i know for some people they will quit before lvl 15.

I can picture softcore PK in EC with 25 <Holocaust> members in /who... "Allrite, be nice to everyone, everything will be cool. Ahh there they are, coming at me, lets send them a tell that i wont bother them if they dont bother me!"

And again and again, im not crying that people will die alot, thats allrite. Its that xp loss is excessive and alot of people wont be able to take it.

[Softcore PK]

All Holocaust really wants is to make friends, I'm sure. They're misunderstood and sometimes a tiny bit misguided, but deep down they are all good people aching for a chance to prove so!

When given the opportunity, they'll jump at the chance to hold hands and sing silly songs around a campfire :)

[oldfish]

Also one other thing that I think will happen:

People like me like to pvp. I dont give up easy. If i get killed solo by 3 guys late at night with no backup, i wont just turn tail and run. Ill wait till they are stuck in a situation where they got their hands full and jump them 1v3. Ill continue PVP even with odds stacked against me (unless its something stupid like 6v1 but its always funny to get 2 before you die).

My point being, XP loss wont stop people who like to PVP from "Bind rushing" AKA playing the game. It will just set them back in the PVE grind. At some point, some people might decide that EQ PVP is already "boring" as it is (sitting down for 5-10mins each time you die) that the extra PVE grind on top of it isnt worth the fun you get from PVPing.

[Nirgon]

Get killed -> spawn at bind rooted -> trained mob waiting for you.

Great idea.