Data on AC values in PvP

[Prova]

I have been doing some testing of AC Values. Here is brief description of the methods and a taste of what I've seen so far.

All attacks have been made by a level 50 warrior using a 10/32 Sharkjaw Cutlass. Shield in offhand to prevent data being skewed.

Offensive skills are as follows, and have stayed as such throughout tests:

Attacker Stats:
1826

The first parse is against a level 50 warrior as the target. The first round of results is when the target is naked. The second round is against him with as much AC gear as I could acquire. Notice that the defensive skill is not capped. The char was boosted this way and I wasn't able to get it fixed for this round of tests. Regardless, the undercapped skills stay as such throughout the tests, so they should not cause issues.

Target Stats, Before and After:
1827

And the data:
1828

1829


Based on the data, the mitigation seems negligible at best. More data is to come with chain and cloth values.

[Prova]

Here is the data from the test against the rogue.

Unbuffed Rogue Stats:
1831

Buffed Rogue Stats:
1832



Rogue Charts:
1833

1834

[Vile]

noiceeeeeeee

[Crenshinabon]

very nice finds. Looks like ac is not working correctly.

[gloinz]

very nicely done much better then other feller's one ss with a 20 sample size

[Prova]

Another concern I had was with the damage bonus. I first noticed with criticals.

[Wed Nov 02 19:11:34 2011] Lugzug scores a critical hit! (46)
[Wed Nov 02 19:11:34 2011] You slash Mefesto for 54 points of damage.

[Wed Nov 02 19:12:46 2011] Lugzug scores a critical hit! (40)
[Wed Nov 02 19:12:46 2011] You slash Mefesto for 48 points of damage.

The critical hits are clearly adding the weapons damage bonus after the crit damage is calculated. I'm not sure that this is correct, and it leads me to believe the bonus system in general may be messed up. I'm going to run more tests to see.

It seems fishy to me that so many of the hits are for twice of the weapons damage + damage bonus.

Edit: I've just done some more testing with 2h and again, 2x damage + bonus is by far the majority of hits (23% of hits in total). 25 damage weapon, 19 damage bonus. 69 damage against an essentially naked warrior. I cannot say that this isn't classic, as I remember hitting for 78 or so with my Soul Leech very very frequently in 99, which is very close to this same formula. Regardless, pic:

1835

[purest]

http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l512/millhouseproject1999/clap.gif

[Null]

Just to make sure, and forgive me if this is obvious bbbuutttt

are you factoring out avoidance (misses, dodge, parry, block, riposte) from the average hit calculation?

[Treats]

It seems fishy to me that so many of the hits are for twice of the weapons damage + damage bonus.

Edit: I've just done some more testing with 2h and again, 2x damage + bonus is by far the majority of hits (23% of hits in total). 25 damage weapon, 19 damage bonus. 69 damage against an essentially naked warrior. I cannot say that this isn't classic, as I remember hitting for 78 or so with my Soul Leech very very frequently in 99, which is very close to this same formula. Regardless, pic:

1835

This is fairly accurate. There are still some problems but for the most part it is pretty close. Another link to a TLDR thread:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34925

[Prova]

Here is the last tier of data. The cliff notes is that it appears that AC is only adding ~1.58% Mitigation per 100 worn AC acquired.

This means that 'good' gear on a warrior will mitigate about 3% more damage than a naked warrior in PvP. Good being best in slot non planar.

This also means that a godly, best in slot in all slots, including PoA items, warrior, will mitigate slightly less than 6% more damage than a naked warrior in PvP.





So in the most recent round of testing, in order to make certain we had enough AC to really show its effects, a fully decked out best in slot warrior was created to absorb some blows. A similar one was created to deal them.


The meat shield:
1836

Before and after stats:
1837

Attacker's Stats:
1838


Meat and Potatoes:
1839
1840

And finally, to Nulls point, the average damages listed above are the average damage of each swing that landed for damage in a given parse. This does not include swings for zero, misses, or any avoidance numbers.

[Prova]

This is fairly accurate. There are still some problems but for the most part it is pretty close. Another link to a TLDR thread:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34925

Ah, good information.

[pasi]

Good work.

Some observations:

Your warrior is not under cap on defense for a level 50. 210 cap until above 50.

With AC values this low, it doesn't appear that either the warrior or rogue are hitting an AC softcap yet.

Int Casters have a much lower Defense Cap (145) in comparison to everyone else at (200 or higher) while also lacking higher avoidance skills. So, even with AC doing little, geared INT casters are probably going to take significantly higher damage than naked melee. Not saying this shouldn't be this way, but I'm sure some stupid person is going to look at your data and think INTs mitigate almost as well as melee.

[Lovely]

Well you should have involved misses. Cause like I said in my previous post. It seems like AC only affects MISSES and Defense affect how hard you get hit.

A system like that is ideal imo. If you make AC give a bonus to both miss+less damage then any class can stack high AC and tank like a god and it shouldn't be like that.

If you had included misses we could actually have seen if the system is working good or not.

[Null]

Well you should have involved misses. Cause like I said in my previous post. It seems like AC only affects MISSES and Defense affect how hard you get hit.

A system like that is ideal imo. If you make AC give a bonus to both miss+less damage then any class can stack high AC and tank like a god and it shouldn't be like that.

If you had included misses we could actually have seen if the system is working good or not.

AC has no bearing on hit chance.

[Lovely]

Oh okay, actually I was just gonna edit my post cause I missed that he had included misses lol

[Lovely]

AC has no bearing on hit chance.

But is it defense that make you get hit for less? Cause I definitely get hit harder on average then a tank in PVP and my defense is pure shit. Not even close to my max.

[Korisek]

But is it defense that make you get hit for less? Cause I definitely get hit harder on average then a tank in PVP and my defense is pure shit. Not even close to my max.

Dodge would be the avoidance part of AC (also likely Parry).

[Lovely]

Dodge would be the avoidance part of AC (also likely Parry).

Yeah but I'm not counting the dodge/parry/riposte. But the fact that I get hit almost 100% in pvp while on a warrior you get loads of "miss" that isn't a dodge/parry or riposte just a plain miss. But I assume it's all about the defense skill on that then and not AC.

[Authority]

You're ac is not the same as a tank's ac. I'm not sure why this is hard to grasp.

[Korisek]

Yeah but I'm not counting the dodge/parry/riposte. But the fact that I get hit almost 100% in pvp while on a warrior you get loads of "miss" that isn't a dodge/parry or riposte just a plain miss. But I assume it's all about the defense skill on that then and not AC.

So that means that your AC isn't affecting those misses since they are neither dodged nor parried. Something is up with the attacker's ATK and relevant combat skill in that situation - or, also likely, the RNG for attackers in a combat round.

[Lovely]

You're ac is not the same as a tank's ac. I'm not sure why this is hard to grasp.

You only one not grasping it is you

This from Null

AC has no bearing on hit chance.

Just trying to confirm that the only thing that affect miss chance is defense. Which it seems to be (Not counting dodge,riposte,parry, block etcc)

[Treats]

Skill checks should be done prior to hit/miss. Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte has no bearing on AC.

AC has no bearing on hit chance.

Avoidance AC should be the only factor in determining hit or miss.

How it should work (Leaving out Attacker, Just AC):

Attacker attacks
Server calculates if Defender Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte
IF no Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte
Server calculates Avoidance AC (Agility Table + (Defense * 16/9) but never less than 0
This value * 1000 / 847
Server calculates Hit or Miss
If Hit Server calculates Mitigation AC
Caster Mitigation = (Buffs/3) + (Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Melee Mitigation = (Buffs/4) + (Defense/3) + (Equipment * 4/3)
This value * 1000 / 847

Yeah but I'm not counting the dodge/parry/riposte. But the fact that I get hit almost 100% in pvp while on a warrior you get loads of "miss" that isn't a dodge/parry or riposte just a plain miss. But I assume it's all about the defense skill on that then and not AC.

You should be getting hit a lot more than a warrior. It looks like Avoidance is for the most part working correctly by his parses. From non geared to geared he gained 33 agility. This is equal to an increase of about 6 on (T from table). Defense did not change.

Ungeared: 26% Miss
Geared: 31% Miss

Here is an example of what Avoidance AC on a Wizard vs Warrior's should look like. This would be a good test to make sure the Wizard is in fact getting hit more:

50 Warrior
210 Defense
100 Agility
493 Avoidance AC

50 Wizard
145 Defense (Not sure if this is correct for 50)
100 Agility
356 Avoidance AC

Once again there is NO softcap until Velious. Raw AC should be Hardcapped and determined by level. Total AC should be Hardcapped again and based on Class.

[Null]

Skill checks should be done prior to hit/miss. Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte has no bearing on AC.



Avoidance AC should be the only factor in determining hit or miss.

How it should work (Leaving out Attacker, Just AC):

Attacker attacks
Server calculates if Defender Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte
IF no Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte
Server calculates Avoidance AC (Agility Table + (Defense * 16/9) but never less than 0
This value * 1000 / 847
Server calculates Hit or Miss
If Hit Server calculates Mitigation AC
Caster Mitigation = (Buffs/3) + (Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Melee Mitigation = (Buffs/4) + (Defense/3) + (Equipment * 4/3)
This value * 1000 / 847

...

Right, Agi and Defense have bearing on avoidance, not the raw AC stat in your character panel.

[Prova]

Here is the test that I've run against a gearless 49 caster (145 Def). Ungeared warrior data is included for comparison. Note the huge jump in hit rate.

1841

[Lovely]

Here is the test that I've run against a gearless 49 caster (145 Def). Ungeared warrior data is included for comparison. Note the huge jump in hit rate.

1841

System seems to be pretty fine then. 87% vs 64% is about what it should be imo

[Crenshinabon]

System seems to be pretty fine then. 87% vs 64% is about what it should be imo

Except that AC does nothing and is completely not working.
THe only thing that seems to work is that you hit cloth classes more often. But if you are a naked warrior fighting a full AC geared warrior then the damage is exactly the same...... broken. This makes all AC items useless in pvp.

If I am a warrior in full bronze or Rubicite fighting a warrior clad in cloth and leather and he is hitting me for the same amount, that needs to be fixed.

[Lovely]

Except that AC does nothing and is completely not working.
THe only thing that seems to work is that you hit cloth classes more often. But if you are a naked warrior fighting a full AC geared warrior then the damage is exactly the same...... broken. This makes all AC items useless in pvp.

If I am a warrior in full bronze or Rubicite fighting a warrior clad in cloth and leather and he is hitting me for the same amount, that needs to be fixed.

Ok you have a point! But AC shouldn't add to avoidance at least. Because being hit 64% is already low enough. Lower then that and you'll see those retarded logs of people missing someone 15+ times in a row. But AC should definitely make you get hit for lower amounts when you actually get hit.

[Treats]

Except that AC does nothing and is completely not working.
THe only thing that seems to work is that you hit cloth classes more often. But if you are a naked warrior fighting a full AC geared warrior then the damage is exactly the same...... broken. This makes all AC items useless in pvp.

If I am a warrior in full bronze or Rubicite fighting a warrior clad in cloth and leather and he is hitting me for the same amount, that needs to be fixed.

From Prova's recent post with the 49 Caster it looks like Avoidance AC is working correctly.

Mitigation AC is what seems to be the problem then. Here are some numbers for three classes of what it should look like. These parses are from NPC's 3-4 levels lower facing front. Cleric AC and Shaman Agility. The RAW AC Hardcap at level 51 should be 163. There are no parses of a character that was naked unfortunately. Still may be somewhat helpful.

Class War Pal Mnk
Level 51 51 51
Raw Item AC 184 181 107
Agility 157 144 169
Dodge 3.4% 3.1% 4.4%
Block 0 % 0% 10.2%
Riposte 4.4% 3.9% 4.1%
Parry 5.2% 4.6% 0%
Skill Evasion 12.9% 11.5% 18.7%
Hit Rate 61.2% 61.3% 58.2%
Avg Hit 72.6 72.9 74.6
% Hits for Max 10.2% 10.5% 11.5%
Avg Dmg / Round 59.7 61.1 54.5
DPS 28.2 28.8 25.7

@ Level 60 -- RAW AC Hardcap at Level 60 is 289 (385 Cloth).

Class War Pal Mnk
Level 60 60 60
Raw Item AC 296 281 163
Agility 177 152 187
Dodge 4.3% 3.9% 4.9%
Block 0 % 0% 11.4%
Riposte 4.8% 4.3% 4.5%
Parry 5.8% 5.2% 0%
Skill Evasion 14.9% 13.4% 20.8%
Hit Rate 59.4% 59.7% 59.3%
Avg Hit 107.3 109.9 113.6
% Hits for Max 10.4% 11.7% 13.6%
Avg Dmg / Round 87.4 91.7 86.1
DPS 50.8 53.3 50

Another note, there should be no Shield AC bonus ever here. It should act just as any other slot (Back/Face/Shoulder/etc). This bonus was added just before Planes of Power.

[Nirgon]

On a twinked (not deleveled...) SK on live, I hate to say that I do recall more misses with a higher AC, esp when being very high for its level.

Big shout out to people who have been wanting their EQ pvp and actually working to improve the server by population or testing therein (read: being a positive influence to the community).

[Knuckle]

I have been doing some testing of AC Values. Here is brief description of the methods and a taste of what I've seen so far.

All attacks have been made by a level 50 warrior using a 10/32 Sharkjaw Cutlass. Shield in offhand to prevent data being skewed.

Offensive skills are as follows, and have stayed as such throughout tests:

Attacker Stats:
1826

The first parse is against a level 50 warrior as the target. The first round of results is when the target is naked. The second round is against him with as much AC gear as I could acquire. Notice that the defensive skill is not capped. The char was boosted this way and I wasn't able to get it fixed for this round of tests. Regardless, the undercapped skills stay as such throughout the tests, so they should not cause issues.

Target Stats, Before and After:
1827

And the data:
1828

1829


Based on the data, the mitigation seems negligible at best. More data is to come with chain and cloth values.

THis is a BIG DEAL. Warriors damage is completely fucked with ZERO benefit from armor, we are suppose to have huge mitigation, yet we are being hit by fucking necro and mage pets as hard as a enchanter would take the hits, this is going to completely gimp tanking on raids for warriors too.

[pickled_heretic]

i've been told that ac on the blue server has been fixed for a while, is this not the case either? are the servers using identical code for ac?

[Silikten]

i cant wait to raid you pal

[juicedsixfo]

THis is a BIG DEAL. Warriors damage is completely fucked with ZERO benefit from armor, we are suppose to have huge mitigation, yet we are being hit by fucking necro and mage pets as hard as a enchanter would take the hits, this is going to completely gimp tanking on raids for warriors too.

Unlike Prova I don't have awesome stats and graphs to back up my post, but to concur with Knuckle, my 50 Warrior in planar gear is getting hit for full damage by pets and other melee's alike. I sometimes box a naked 50 shaman and both my guys get hit for the same amount.

That doesn't seem right.

[Marras]

Good data from the OP. I think it's cute how you nerds blow up over parsed data during beta... lol

[Knuckle]

Good data from the OP. I think it's cute how you nerds blow up over parsed data during beta... lol

becuase these arent instant fixes and will require time, live server release is in 2 weeks and right now warriors ability to tank is being completely ignored. so our only advantage over a paladin or SK is our hitpoint disparity. If you go small race warrior you might as well be a spelless paladin or SK.

[Marras]

becuase these arent instant fixes and will require time, live server release is in 2 weeks and right now warriors ability to tank is being completely ignored. so our only advantage over a paladin or SK is our hitpoint disparity. If you go small race warrior you might as well be a spelless paladin or SK.

I'm with it - It's a good data thread, trying to keep it on topic.

No need to flame the numbers, they may just need to be tweaked a bit.

[Knuckle]

I'm with it - It's a good data thread, trying to keep it on topic.

No need to flame the numbers, they may just need to be tweaked a bit.

Yeah, I'm more upset at retards like lovely with 2 brain cells "LOL CASTERS BEING HIT MORE THAN MELEE, ARMOR FINE"

[gloinz]

becuase these arent instant fixes and will require time, live server release is in 2 weeks and right now warriors ability to tank is being completely ignored. so our only advantage over a paladin or SK is our hitpoint disparity. If you go small race warrior you might as well be a spelless paladin or SK.

more like a dwarf warrior spellless lay handsless paladin with a monsoon bow chicka wow wow
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/4/f/4fcbe34902593fd82914b2a8c4c0c1a4.png

[pasi]

From the data, the issue isn't going to be INT Caster Vs Warrior as the warrior's melee damage intake is going to be significantly less than an INT caster (the warrior parse had 3x the avoidance of the int caster). Seriously, the difference between being hit 87% of the time and 64% of the time is a lot bigger than most of you are giving credit. Take a look at the war/pal/monk parse to see the effect of avoidance on DPS intake. There is a reason monks took a defensive nerf in late-SoL.

The issue with AC not working is going to be non-plate, non-INT vs plate mitigation. Non-INTs can get up to 200 defense (warriors 210) so having the weak effect of AC is going to throw off the balance there. Without AC having a sizeable effect, a druid is going to have a similar damage intake to a warrior (obvious sans avoidance skills).

[Treats]

From the data, the issue isn't going to be INT Caster Vs Warrior as the warrior's melee damage intake is going to be significantly less than an INT caster (the warrior parse had 3x the avoidance of the int caster). Seriously, the difference between being hit 87% of the time and 64% of the time is a lot bigger than most of you are giving credit. Take a look at the war/pal/monk parse to see the effect of avoidance on DPS intake. There is a reason monks took a defensive nerf in late-SoL.

Avoidance was untouched in the monk nerf. It was Mitigation. Avoidance is based on Agility and Defense skill. Nothing else.

I've tried to explain this now three times. Avoidance AC and Mitigation AC are two totally DIFFERENT values and used in separate calculations. The displayed AC value you see on the Player screen is a combination of both. As far as I can tell there is no problem with Avoidance.

[pasi]

Avoidance was untouched in the monk nerf. It was Mitigation. Avoidance is based on Agility and Defense skill. Nothing else.

I've tried to explain this now three times. Avoidance AC and Mitigation AC are two totally DIFFERENT values and used in separate calculations. The displayed AC value you see on the Player screen is a combination of both. As far as I can tell there is no problem with Avoidance.

Aspects of classes frequently get nerfed in order to balance other aspects of that class. Monk mitigation took a hit because their avoidance was so powerful when supplemented with ok-mitigation. They wanted to maintain the agile flavor of the class. Agility, defense, and avoidance skills obviously. Block is obviously a lot better than parry. But that's a meaningless conversation to have.

If mitigation AC isn't functioning how we want it to be, there is definitely a -balance- problem with avoidance AC. Again, change mitigation AC and this isn't a problem. A tank with 210 defense isn't going to take that much less damage than a rogue with 200 defense and will take more damage than a monk with 230 defense. This is kind of a 'no shit,' but people seem to think casters at 145 defense are fairing as well as plate.

[mimixownzall]

. . .yet we are being hit by fucking necro and mage pets as hard as a enchanter would take the hits, this is going to completely gimp tanking on raids for warriors too.

ROFL OH NOES! I'm getting hit by a necro an mage pet for 25 DMG! HOLY FUCK! Oh yeah... It also is missing almost half the time, too, but nm that!

[Not_Kazowi]

the average hit on a warrior should be far less then a int caster. the hit rate may be ok but AC is meaningless atm, the single most important attribute for a warrior in PVP is the fact we can get beat on better then any class, currently that isnt even working. plz fix

[juicedsixfo]

So this thread is/was a pretty big deal. Any word from devs on whether or not AC mitigation is working as intended? Or should anyone wanting to roll a Warrior go for max AGI to increase avoidance to make up for lack of mitigation?

[Nirgon]

On a twinked (again... not deleveled SK) I remember non-twinked melees coming at me to be pretty silly. They did miss a lot.

[juicedsixfo]

Looks like I'm going Wood Elf with max AGI if there isn't going to be a word on it

[Furniture]

Question:

The following code:

Caster Mitigation = (Buffs/3) + (Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Melee Mitigation = (Buffs/4) + (Defense/3) + (Equipment * 4/3)


Is correct just for pvp or is it for damage incoming from npcs also?
I'm thrown off by the buffs/3 and buffs/4 because I thought that buff AC applied directly to your equipment raw ac. Does it do both?

[fiegi 2.5]

this thread screams http://www.optimusnerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/nerd-friend.jpg

[Nirgon]

Griefed off the server

[Furniture]

nirgon you seem to know your stuff with eq mechanics please help me out with this

[Nirgon]

Apparently I don't sorry

I would like to add, though, that false emperors are worms and will be crushed

[Bamzal Sherbet]

heres some data on pvp

Perhaps a /ready command that both players need to type before engaging in PvP?

[Vile]

yay