Necro Soloing After Patch

[Aruden]

I'm wondering how the new pet nerfs effect low to mid-level gameplay for Necromancers. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Also--which class do you most enjoy playing and why? I was thinking of rolling another class until the fix pet agro.

Thanks!

[mitic]

not nerfs but rather working as intended now

[MrSparkle001]

not nerfs but rather working as intended now

"as intended" as in not really classic?

I'm a 23 necro and so far soloing is fine.

[Aruden]

Mr. Sparkle, has your solo technique changed to accomodate the patch? How do you make sure that you out-damage your pet?

[Kassel]

Mr. Sparkle, has your solo technique changed to accomodate the patch? How do you make sure that you out-damage your pet?

for my necro alt that i have only played twice since the patch i did the follow,

used all 3 dots instead of just 2 & and stoped buffing my pet. Made sure fear was up all the time so dots ticked at full, got ticked i needed to actually med on my necro, Then i said screw it, buffed my pet, used only my snare and kited while only fearing sometimes.

The differance in playstyle really came down ton 1 major detail, how many mobs are avaliable. If had the entire outside of paw golls to myself it was better to eat the exp loss and save the mana for the next pull or sometimes multi pull. If i had to wait for a pop i would add more dots and make sure i got the full exp.

Gonna play the necro more tonight so will add more insight, really its not that big of a deal considering how OP they are. oh and out damaging your pet for full exp was very classic

[Crug]

Wait, i thought I just had to do 1 point of damage to get full xp? OH GOD WHY

[Kabilos]

Wait, i thought I just had to do 1 point of damage to get full xp? OH GOD WHY

Because that is not the way it is, it is the way it was and is now fixed to the way it should have been which is what it is now.

50% or more damage outside of the pet to get full xp :)

Welcome to classic :)

[inyane]

Feel free to read the thread called Classic Pet Experience
to learn why this is a huge nerf, even though its classic

No need to repeat it all here

[Aruden]

I scoured that thread, Inyane. I'm just asking about strategy post-patch.

[Balamar]

Wow, I am glad I didn't roll a necro. I used to be a mage back in 1999 and thought this outlook was just silly. I mean, if you have a warrior and a cleric duo'd, should the cleric not get xp since he didn't do more than 50% of the damage since all he did was heal the tank? Dumb...

Seriously, when you have to take buffs away from your pet so that you can get experience, then it is broken...

[mimixownzall]

Aggro kiting is what people did anyways most of the time and it is still fine. Your dots will out dmg the pet's shitty damage (pet's damage seems to be crap after all the 'fine tuning' compared to classic).

[disco]

Aggro kiting is what people did anyways most of the time and it is still fine. Your dots will out dmg the pet's shitty damage (pet's damage seems to be crap after all the 'fine tuning' compared to classic).

summoned pet yes, but not a charmed one....

[MrSparkle001]

Mr. Sparkle, has your solo technique changed to accomodate the patch? How do you make sure that you out-damage your pet?

This is what I do in outdoor zones (I don't have a tank pet yet to solo effectively in dungeons):

Pull with Darkness
Send pet in
Add Heat Blood
Run and kite, occasionally stopping to cast a lifetap.

If Darkness is resisted, like on a yellow mob, I quickly Feign Death and attempt again. I also keep Allure of Death up at all times. What sucks is that those DOTs are low level and do low damage, especially with the 40% nerf to moving targets. It's 7 per tick with Darkness and 11 with Heat Blood, but Siphon Life takes care of the major DPS.

This obviously does not work in dungeons, and as I'm only 23 my pet can't tank yet so I avoid dungeons solo right now.

Hooray for adding "classic" changes that get removed because the developers of the REAL game realized how fucking retarded they were!

That's what I've been saying too. These mechanics were terrible in classic and it's why they were changed, but here we won't be seeing Luclin so this pet XP nerf might be here forever. It shouldn't be. To be honest, it never should have existed in classic either, but it took the devs a while to fix it.

Same goes for race/class XP penalties and even the nerf to DOT damage when a mob is moving. All these things were eventually eliminated because they devs saw how retarted they were. There's no need to duplicate them here, not when we know they were removed later.

[Kassel]

Sparkle, do not forget to fear your mob so dots do full damage. Avoid lifetap if you can as its not great mana efficiency if you dont need the health.

Also, the whole point of the server is to be as close to classic as possible, the devs intentionally add nerfs to achieve their goal. The goal of this server is not to fix the mistakes of the past but to relive the experience as close as possible. You may not agree that this is the way to go, but its their server and their publicly stated goal

[MrSparkle001]

Sparkle, do not forget to fear your mob so dots do full damage. Avoid lifetap if you can as its not great mana efficiency if you dont need the health.

Fear does not allow me to control additional mobs aggroing, and lifetapping lets me keep my health up with Allure of Death. I only need two, maybe three lifetaps. Fear has gotten me into trouble with adds, and my DOTs don't do enough damage to justify the risk, not yet. Soon though they will.

Also, the whole point of the server is to be as close to classic as possible, the devs intentionally add nerfs to achieve their goal. The goal of this server is not to fix the mistakes of the past but to relive the experience as close as possible. You may not agree that this is the way to go, but its their server and their publicly stated goal

Well then what about fixing pet aggro and weapon delay? Those are classic too, but it's been said that weapon delay will never be changed here (who knows if aggro will be fixed). They intentionally added the nerf yes, but they're also intentionally not adding the buff.

It's been quoted a few times already, so I won't quote it again.

EDIT: Screw it, yes I will quote it again:

I don't care how much anyone whines. Pet delays will not be lowered, if the weapon has a lower delay. But enough about that.

So there you have it. The nerfs are added intentionally and the buffs not added intentionally. That's why people are upset.

[Falisaty]

what i want to know is how is DS dmg calculated is it part of the pets dmg or is it nutral does not count... at 56 the 33 pt dmg shield plus 2 nukes does about 50% dmg if not more dmg but if it is not calculated that way then no way im gana continue untill they fix pet agro.

[Seaweedpimp]

what i want to know is how is DS dmg calculated is it part of the pets dmg or is it nutral does not count... at 56 the 33 pt dmg shield plus 2 nukes does about 50% dmg if not more dmg but if it is not calculated that way then no way im gana continue untill they fix pet agro.

pretty sure you would just think of it as like a third party that couldnt take exp just lowering the mobs total hitpoints.

In other words it wouldnt go toward you or your pets damage output.

[Hamahakki]

Yeah, DS damage counts for no one, the mob's HP just goes down without affecting threat or exp.

[Nagash]

Well since last patch, my xp sucks. I've stopped buffing my pet, use more DoTs but it looks like my pet still outdamages me at level 40 (less xp now than before the patch when I was already 40).
Having said that, I bear in mind:
1) I'm 40 so xp is bound to suck (hello, hello hell level)
2) I got scales so xp is bound to suck even more
3) At least I can solo very easily (compared to a warrior or rogue solo, I'm sure I still make xp 50 times quicker)
4) I can easily get full xp: kill my pet before the mob dies and resummon one before next pull (not as if BS were hard to come by, especially as I hunt a lot skellies)
5) I'm in no rush to level
6) I still have a brilliant time and that's all that matters to me

Edited to add the following comment:

Hooray for adding "classic" changes that get removed because the developers of the REAL game realized how fucking retarded they were!

Glad to see you guys are making the same mistakes this time around, classic ignorance that much is for sure. I'm not sure stupidity can be classic but if so, this change is probably a good example of it.

Yes this was removed from live when the devs realised it was stupid (so were xp nerf to hybrids and a lot of other things, good or bad). However, bear in mind that the purpose of the server is not to make EQ as it should have been but to try to make it as close as what it was. The difference is significant but remember that you accept it everytime you type in your password and select the server :)

Nagash/Petitpas

[MrSparkle001]

Yes this was removed from live when the devs realised it was stupid (so were xp nerf to hybrids and a lot of other things, good or bad). However, bear in mind that the purpose of the server is not to make EQ as it should have been but to try to make it as close as what it was. The difference is significant but remember that you accept it everytime you type in your password and select the server :)

Again though, refusal to fix pet weapon delay means it's not trying to make it as close as what it was. Low delay weapons speeding up pet attacks was as basic a mechanic as high damage weapons making low level pets do more damage. It was like "Pets 101". It wasn't some secret or exploit, it was a basic tactic all pet users used, and it should be included here.

[Nagash]

Again though, refusal to fix pet weapon delay means it's not trying to make it as close as what it was. Low delay weapons speeding up pet attacks was as basic a mechanic as high damage weapons making low level pets do more damage. It was like "Pets 101". It wasn't some secret or exploit, it was a basic tactic all pet users used, and it should be included here.

To start with, I would like to see your source about the developpers "refusing" to fix the problem, as far as I know this isn't the case and I think you are very quick to jump the gun.

"Project management 101" indicates a few key activities have to take place for the success of any project, among which ressource allocation and setting up a list of the priorities are critical (usually No1 and 2 on the list).

Factor in the fact that something that looks trivial from the user's point of view might actually be a nightmare to sort out when you look into the programing aspect, and vice versa.

Factor in that they work on a software with a massive yellow line they must not overstep if they don't want to face legal issues (in summary the fix to some problems will never happen because of it).

Factor in that these guys are working with limited ressources on something that takes a lot of time on top of their day job.

Now look at the great picture: I am confident that problems like the one you mentioned or pet automatically dual wielding are on the to-do list... among 1000 other things. As frustrating you might feel it is, they most likely have bigger fish to fry for now.
They do have a public to satisfy and I'll try to give an example of priorisation as the dev probably see it (but the list could go on and on and on and on):

1- How unbalancing is the problem you mentioned to the game (compared to how the game originally was)? Although it is a notable difference, we are not talking of a complete different game here.
- How easy is it to fix? That I can't tell you but I assume that if it was easy, it would have been done a while ago.
- How many people are moaning about it?

On the other hand:

2- How many people manifested the desire to have a red server?
- How complicated is it to make a second server when you've already made one? Probably not very much. My simple mind makes me think that it is mainly a matter of copying what has already been done and test the PvP aspect; I doubt it is as complicated as recreating a server from scratch.

Obviously my exemples might lack finesse (especially in term of technical difficulty analysis but I'm not an IT person) but they should suffice for my purpose: we have a choice to make between 2 things to do, one is in high demand, not the other, none of them is game breaking. Step into the dev's shoes: which one topic shall they work on?

Not everything can happen like everyone would like to: you can't please everyone and you just have to do your best. I think most people will agree that Rogean, Nilbog and the rest of the team have proven they are good at that.

If you can't accept that the dev team is working with all these constraints, there is a rant and rave forum. On the other hand if you can understand this, then you can only do like the rest of us and enjoy your stay here and keep on giving feedback and bug report, just don't give the impression that you are ranting and raving when you do so.

Edited: English is not my mother tongue so I hope my post doesn't sound harsh or aggresive. It is not meant to be and I apologise if you feel the contrary, I'm just trying to put things into perspective.

Regards,
Nagash/Petitpas

[inyane]

To start with, I would like to see your source about the developpers "refusing" to fix the problem, as far as I know this isn't the case and I think you are very quick to jump the gun.

the actual quote is in this thread, by one of the devs (note the actual quote is from another thread, dev did not post in this one)

I don't care how much anyone whines. Pet delays will not be lowered, if the weapon has a lower delay. But enough about that.

[MrSparkle001]

To start with, I would like to see your source about the developpers "refusing" to fix the problem, as far as I know this isn't the case and I think you are very quick to jump the gun.

...

Now look at the great picture: I am confident that problems like the one you mentioned or pet automatically dual wielding are on the to-do list...

Source is right here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30935&page=2

That was late March so maybe the devs have changed their minds on the issue since then. I don't know, but I can hope.

[Samoht]

Link to some evidence of this. Never seen anything that would support this anywhere.

From the same thread. Selective reading is selective.

What I remember is classic: give pets weapons, they now do damage of the weapon but delay is never affected.

The benefit: give your pet a weighted axe (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3579). Bam. hitting for 90 at pet delay instead of weapon delay.

[MrSparkle001]

From the same thread. Selective reading is selective.

What I remember is classic: give pets weapons, they now do damage of the weapon but delay is never affected.

Uthgaard was talking about this:

Expected behavior: Pet uses two hand weapon for damage calculations on main hand (if dual wielding pet).

Actual behavior: Pet continues to do damage as if no weapon has been equipped (despite the graphic showing).

Test: Give a pet Weighted Axe and it will continue to hit for it's base damage, as opposed to 90 a hit as was classic (until nerfed later after Kunark release and the mass use of Weighted Axe on pets).

which was fixed with the last patch (or supposedly fixed, I haven't tested it with a new character yet).

As far as delay, it only affected the pet if it's delay was lower than the pet's natural delay. Low delay weapons are always lower damage than the pet itself (well except maybe at newbie levels) so only the delay affected them. High damage, high delay weapons only made the pet do more damage.

Nobody is asking for evidence of pet delay in that thread. Pet users from back then all know this is how it worked. Give a higher level pet two summoned mage daggers and it hits faster for the same damage each hit. Give a lower level pet a two-handed weapon and it does more damage with the same innate pet delay. Weighted axes won't make a pet swing slower, but they will increase it's damage. Summoned daggers won't lower a pet's damage, but they will lower it's delay.

I don't remember it being nerfed, or how the nerf worked. At that point I was playing a warrior almost exclusively. Anyone know what the post-Kunark nerf did?

[Extunarian]

The consensus was that:

Classic - Pets hit faster with lower delay weapons.

Around Kunark release - The same nerf that took away pets hitting faster via low delay weapons also gave them the ability to hit harder with high damage weapons.

So, yes, they missed the window on the low delay thing, but as of now we should be in line with how pets use weapons.

[Kassel]

This server is not based on what you think you know, its based on what you can provide proof of.

Find proof of your claims and you may get a better result

[casdegere]

From the same thread. Selective reading is selective.

What I remember is classic: give pets weapons, they now do damage of the weapon but delay is never affected.

The benefit: give your pet a weighted axe (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3579). Bam. hitting for 90 at pet delay instead of weapon delay.

^This.

Stop your bitching and play smarter. Arguing points that have already been discussed is a burn of playing time. P1999 is as close to classic as any server here. Due to its timeline and difficulty at fixing modifying certain aspects of the code it is not perfect. If you STILL need to beat this dead horse I have a suggestion:---> Go play hello kitty island adventure with Butters.

[Nagash]

Source is right here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30935&page=2

That was late March so maybe the devs have changed their minds on the issue since then. I don't know, but I can hope.

Fair enough, I missed that one :)
The general idea of my post remains valid though and I just hope you can have as much of a blast as I do every time I log :)

Nagash/Petitpas

[MrSparkle001]

This server is not based on what you think you know, its based on what you can provide proof of.

Find proof of your claims and you may get a better result

According to the link I gave it won't matter what proof is given. It doesn't even matter what order the nerfs/buffs were. He said very plainly []i"I don't care how much anyone whines. Pet delays will not be lowered, if the weapon has a lower delay."[/i]

That leaves no wiggle room.

I'm looking through EQ patch history to see when pet weapon delay was nerfed and this added, because I saw that someone in February 2001 said pet delay was removed sometime before then (very last post on the page): http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3579. Like I said, by then I was playing my warrior almost exclusively so if it was indeed eliminated I missed it. Maybe someone else will have better luck than me in finding this removal in the patch notes:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches

I can't find it. I can't find mention of weapon damage affecting pets or weapon delay not affecting them. It has to be before February 2001, or else what is that guy talking about?

Fair enough, I missed that one :)
The general idea of my post remains valid though and I just hope you can have as much of a blast as I do every time I log :)

Nagash/Petitpas

I try to log on and play almost every day. My necro still solos just fine. I would like the choice of giving my pet low delay weapons, but in reality I don't think I'd want to use them because more damage done by my pet = harder for me to do over 50% of the damage, and I don't want that XP penalty.

[Hailto]

So, essentially enchanter charm soloing is fucking worthless now? What is the point of remaking mistakes that the classic EQ devs made and later fixed? That makes zero sense what so ever, nicely done.

[Samoht]

Why should certain classes be able to solo when others can't? Are you implying it was a mistake to make pure melees at all?

[Hailto]

Why should certain classes be able to solo when others can't? Are you implying it was a mistake to make pure melees at all?

Because having variety in the classes is what makes everquest good. I suppose we could just have one class in the game that can do everything, but that would be kinda boring wouldn't it? Everyone is free to make a solo class, or a group oriented pure melee. Taking solo abilities away for no reason is just stupid. Again, this is a mistake that the original devs of EQ made and later fixed, and now we are just replaying through the mistakes intentionally, makes no sense.

[Kassel]

So, essentially enchanter charm soloing is fucking worthless now? What is the point of remaking mistakes that the classic EQ devs made and later fixed? That makes zero sense what so ever, nicely done.

This is the "lets get as close to classic as possible server" the "lets fix the dev's mistakes server" has yet to be created.

[mwatt]

This is the "lets get as close to classic as possible server" the "lets fix the dev's mistakes server" has yet to be created.

Well put.

I will add that it takes time to make all the necessary changes to the original code base that makes the server classic-like. That means some random asshat can always say, "Well this isn't classic so why even try to make anything classic?". Obviously, that is a nonsense question, and should never be used as justification for desired non-classic changes.

The other point that is sometimes made is, "This change was eventually reversed, so why even put it in place?". The problem with this point is that it is nearly impossible to draw the line. What if a change was made in 2011? Should we retro the game play p99? Probably not. What about 2005? Might make sense.... how to decide that? Which changes should be reversed and which should not? If ANY were reversed, would the server still be as close to classic as possible, within in the time frame that is currently being experienced there? No, it wouldn't.

What if a change (nerf) were reversed in Luclin? An argument could be made for that change to eventually occur in p99 I think. However, it would probably best occur after Velious had been in place for a while.

[mala]

1- How unbalancing is the problem you mentioned to the game (compared to how the game originally was)? Although it is a notable difference, we are not talking of a complete different game here.


For mages, this patch is EXTREMELY unbalancing. I logged on for an hour or 2 the other night to try and do some testing with how this will all work out and it was just awful. Without the pet agro fixed its nearly impossible to solo a mob and get the full exp. The only way i could get full exp is to have the earth pet out, and just get lucky with all his roots sticking. Mages have to start nuking pretty early to do more then 50% of total damage, so after 1 single nuke at 80% of mobs health the mob will jump you and wont get off, perma-agro (un-classic). So at this point you have to run around in circles while your pet reroots (try this in the hole, really fun), and if your pet cant get a root off in 10-20seconds, your toast. So you got lucky and have a rooted mob, now you have to burn 30-40% your mana on nukes, (cant even use my burnt wooden staff anymore, its click is waaaay too slow to use solo) to get full exp, and then after fight use another 20% of your mana to heal up the pet. Using the same pet is the only time efficient way to do things, because as any pet class knows innate duel wielding doesnt work here either (un-classic). So now you have used just over half your mana to solo 1 mob, if you got lucky enough for it to stay rooted the whole time (1/5th of the time out of the 30-40 mobs i tried). The other 4/5th's of the time my pet wouldnt root and my only option was to burn the mob down using 70-80% of my mana, or just gate.

There is nothing classic about completely gimping a solo class's exp gain while not fixing the mechanics to how he gains the exp. And i understand the importance of priority here, these issues probably don't effect a huge portion of players so why mess with it? Well the old pet exp rule also didnt effect a huge portion of players, so why mess with it? In the name of classic? bullshit, if it was in the name of classic, the other issues should have just as much importance. (pet agro, innate duel wield, weapon delay) If they "fix" one, the others need to be fixed as well.

[Extunarian]

So, essentially enchanter charm soloing is fucking worthless now? What is the point of remaking mistakes that the classic EQ devs made and later fixed? That makes zero sense what so ever, nicely done.

What? Just break charm before the mob you are killing dies.

[Rallyd]

I think you guys are kind of missing the point of the nerf, most people in classic didn't even know about it, mages still went along their way as one of the best solo exp classes in the game, necros who knew about it slaughtered the exp bar, and ones who didnt did fairly well still.

The point of it is that if you didn't know about it you wouldn't be so up in arms about it, that's why sony never told you until they fixed it, and anyone without MQ2 exp gain protocols didn't figure it out. Just go with it, regardless of getting 50% exp per mob, if you didn't know, you'd still be getting way better exp than 80% of the other classes :/

[pickled_heretic]

Well put.

I will add that it takes time to make all the necessary changes to the original code base that makes the server classic-like. That means some random asshat can always say, "Well this isn't classic so why even try to make anything classic?". Obviously, that is a nonsense question, and should never be used as justification for desired non-classic changes.


you made this statement without explaining any reasons why. in light of certain things being intentionally non-classic (such as pet aggro and pet weapon delays, ivandy's hoop etc) could you please elucidate? thanks.

This is the "lets get as close to classic as possible server" the "lets fix the dev's mistakes server" has yet to be created.

we've already crossed the rubicon there. certain exploits like being able to make tradeskill items that sold to vendors for more than it cost to make them were never in this game in the first place. was the server better off for it? absolutely. doesn't change the fact that it wasn't classic.

[Samoht]

The only way i could get full exp

The only way? How did it work when you were grouped?

[Chokan]

The only way? How did it work when you were grouped?

You get 1/6th of the exp?

[Samoht]

maybe you don't know how groups work, but i doubt your pet would eat 5/6 of the exp because you're in a group

[mala]

The only way? How did it work when you were grouped?

Well this entire conversation is about "soloing"... thats a pretty key word here, its even in the thread title. Im sure i could get the same amount of exp from grouping as i did pre-nerf, but thats not the issue here. This nerf was actually directed at solo pet classes, so bringing up group environment is completely off topic.

[feste]

what percentage of xp do our pets take now if we just keep killing like normal?

[Kassel]

Well this entire conversation is about "soloing"... thats a pretty key word here, its even in the thread title. Im sure i could get the same amount of exp from grouping as i did pre-nerf, but thats not the issue here. This nerf was actually directed at solo pet classes, so bringing up group environment is completely off topic.


This thread is about necros not mages. Mages are boned but there is another thread to cry about that already. This is about how to solo as a necro so bringing up mages is completely off topic =D

[Extunarian]

This thread is about necros not mages. Mages are boned but there is another thread to cry about that already. This is about how to solo as a necro so bringing up mages is completely off topic =D

what about shamen wheres our threads

[pickled_heretic]

what about shamen wheres our threads

shaman soloing has not been affected by the pet change, pretty sure they don't need one.