barbarian shaman v.s ogre shaman

[bakkily]

whats some of the differances race wise as in pvp ect, have heard many people say ogres are better for pvp, just wondering whats the big differances

[naez]

Trolls are the best race for the PvP Shaman, no doubt about it. I know a few of you are going to question my authority, so to help you on your quest to stfu, here are the raw facts:

Troll:
Natural Regen, Slam, Infravision, max starting wisdom 95, PR 15, MR 25, DR 15, HR 5, CR 25

Ogre:
Frontal Stun Immunity, Slam, Ultravision, max starting wisdom 102, PR 15, MR 25, DR 15, HR 25, CR 25

Barbarian:
Slam, Human Vision, max starting wisdom 105, PR 15, MR 25, DR 15, HR 25, CR 35

Iksar:
Natural Regen, Natural AC boost, Natural Swim Skill, Infravision, max starting wisdom 115, PR 15, MR 25, DR 15, HR 30, CR 15

Explanation of abilities

Natural Regen:
hitpoints regained per "tick" (roughly 6 - 7 seconds)
Level 1 - 19 ~ 2 standing, 4 sitting
Level 20 - 49 ~ 2 standing, 6 sitting
Level 50 ~ 4 standing, 8 sitting
Level 51 - 59 ~ 6 standing, 12 sitting
Level 60 ~ 12 standing, 18 sitting (not sure on this one, can anyone confirm?)
Natural Regeneration stacks with all regen spells, songs and items. It is important to shaman because of the cannibalize series of spells (starting at 24) more hitpoints means more mana. All races without natural regen regenerate ½ as fast.

Slam:
A version of the bash skill. Shaman don't increase skill in bash, so a lot of people disregard it. They shouldn't - since Shaman get no type of stun or knockback spell, this is the only way besides weapon melee that we are able to interrupt spells. If you land a slam, it interrupts your target’s spell 100% of the time in both PvE and PvP. Without slam, most of those pesky halfee druids would have gated away on me.

Frontal Stun Immunity
When facing the enemy, you can’t be stunned by normal melee. However, you can still be stunned by spells with stun effects.

--==Extra Info on Stun Immunity By Ugli Itchibottom==--
Ogres can not be stunned in PvP melee. Period. Not from the front, not from behind, not even from behind with slam/bash. Most NPCs bashing can only stun them from behind. Exceptions are giant class MOBs, which includes giants of course, and cyclops, as well as sarnaks and Drolvargs in Kunark, and wurms/wyverns/dragons. Giant class mobs even get a chance to interrupt with normal hits, not just bashes. Other mobs can *ONLY* stun Ogres from behind with bash. PCs can not stun them except with spells.
----===----

Natural AC boost:
The player gets extra AC for each skill in defense raised for a total of 2.5 ac per skill. (thanks for the exact number, Vova)

Human vision:
Can't see shit at night, but in my opinion the lighting effects in the game look much better. All shaman get spells to improve vision to infra/ultra for a period of time.

Infravision: See mo' betta at night, red tinge.

Ultravision: See much much mo' betta at night, blue tinge.

Races & Items:
There are too many items to list that one shaman race can use but another can’t, and new items are being added every few months. The only major item that not all shaman can use is the Jaundiced Bone Bracer (effect: winter's roar, works from lvl 45 on, while amazingly efficient for PvE, its rarely used in PvP due to the 12 second cast time) which all shaman races besides Iksar can use. To a lesser extent the Troll Shaman deity necklaces – For Cazic worshipping Trolls, they get unlimited charges of Fear undead/animal (hard to gain faction for quest, unable to use in PvP), and for Innoruuk worshipping Trolls, Clinging Darkness (snare effect + small DOT, often used in OOM PvP situations). Two troll shaman can fear kite this way :P If you think of any other major items to list, let me know.

--=Extra equip info by Ugli Itchibottom=--
Iksar and Barbs both get much better gear than the fatties, especially if you are looking for NODROP stuff. (Jarsath > Rune Etched on some pieces, obtainable at level 5 or so walking into Karnor's and picking up the pieces rotting at the zoneline, Iksar hate gear has 11 more to EVERY resist than other races, along with double the WIS, lots more AC, etc. and don't forget imbued granite spaulders, or the half dozen or so Velious handheld WIS items for medium races only).

Race conclusion:
Troll by far. The two most important racial abilities for the PvP shaman are (in order): Slam, Natural Regen. You might point and say, "but but but, BLART! Trolls have shitty wisdom! And and their resists, well um, they suck cack!!" But you’d be wrong. Read the stats again, and whisper to yourself, "trolls are the best, they really are the best, better than rest". If that doesn’t work, go write your own damn guide to misinform the world about the superiority of your effeminate barbarian.

[Softcore PK]

Barbarians aren't gross. I would go barbarian.

[Grahm]

Not sure if srs.

for starters frontal stun immunity. for finishers frontal stun immunity. and for inbetweeners frontal stun immunity.

Not to mention Everfrost-BB till level 12 or Straight to guk till level 30+

[Grahm]

And no, at level 50 you're going to wish you had frontal stun immunity and not an extra 10hps per tick. for PvP especially.

[naez]

WRONG

[quido]

Barbarians aren't gross. I would go barbarian.

Once you go Barbarian you never go back.

[Softcore PK]

Once you go Barbarian you never go back.

Something like this.

It's not going to be a big deal in 90% of your pvp encounters. Play whichever race you like most, in terms of RP.

[SearyxTZ]

I'm disagreeing with you Naez.


3hp/tick standing regen (or whatever it is) doesn't outweigh frontal stun immunity (very very good for PvP), higher base stats in everything, and no negative hit to fire resist.

Ogre Shaman if u want to slam with the best. Trolls jam w/ the rest.

[Softcore PK]

But I will say:

Iksar/troll regen will not help much in pvp, because fights won't last long enough for you to canni much. If anyone here has a pvp advantage, it's iksar for ac and ogre for frontal stun immunity. And everyone but iksar for slam.

[naez]

youre not disagreeing with me, youre disagreeing with the greatest shaman/bard to ever play EQ; blart/fansy

The n00b's Guide to the Troll Shaman on Rallos Zek (http://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html)

[Bockscar]

Troll (...) PR 15, MR 25, DR 15, HR 5, CR 25

HR 5

5

Please don't play trolls on a PvP server when ogre is already the superior race for any casting class even before you factor in the fact that trolls have -20 to like the second most important resist.

[stonetz]

If you want to play a troll do it, if it's only based on stats go with ogre for sure. All those mage bolts are going to hurt those trolls.

If you think trolls are cool or are worth it then do it, it's nice to have some variety. Going to be plenty of ogres.

[Lovely]

Play whatever race you want to play.. But Ogre is best hands down

[C5BAMF]

Good shaman don't give you the chance to go toe to toe with them, which is where the regen comes into play. Lv60 Troll Shaman (natural regen + fungi tunic + buffed regen) makes one frustrating fucking fight. I've seen a full group of players chasing a shaman around DL, it wasn't long before they began dropping like flies.

Still, I'd probably play ogre. Later in the game you get pretty dependent on that frontal stun immunity, especially when soloing big game.

[Smedy]

It all depends on what you're out to do, for PVE troll shaman is the best no doubt, for pvp it's the ogre shaman.

Having the ability to back into a corner and not be able to be stunned by melee is priceless trust me. But troll at 60 with fungus + regrowth isn't bad either.

I'd stay the fuck away from barbarian is the end of my conclusion.

[Cwall]

depends on resists i'd say

if snare can land, go troll innoruuk for the darkness neck

otherwise ogre

[Wonton]

just make a level 1 ogre shammy and level 1 troll shammy and duel. winner is yours

[Palemoon]

A few things to add, or to correct in the case of wrong info:

-Ogres get Infavision, not Ultravision (and if they do here, its a bug).

-Iskar get starting skill in Forage

-The role of holy symbols for the different races. Trolls of Innoruk get the best of them, the others are more toys

-Faction, with faction being fixed by Nilborg, it is a factor on a pvp server. In many overland old world areas the Barbarian will have guards to run to, or to pvp/rest behind. Not so for the other races as much, without a lot of faction work.

-Iskar can't use kunark armor for the clickies like free damage

-Iskar get their own shaman club quest, this quest is completable all the way up to a epic quality club on Al'kabor... NOT sure the timeline on it and if that epic quality club will be availible in Velious (or earlier?)

In the end? Always choose the race/class combo that will help you "get into" your character the most. Your character is your in game persona, not just a collection of numbers. The more you love the "style" and idea of your character, the more fun you will have in game. This is classic EQ, you wont be having accounts full of max level toons, well unless you grind for years. You got to love your main.

[Hovis]

In the end? Always choose the race/class combo that will help you "get into" your character the most. Your character is your in game persona, not just a collection of numbers. The more you love the "style" and idea of your character, the more fun you will have in game. This is classic EQ, you wont be having accounts full of max level toons, well unless you grind for years. You got to love your main.

Amen!

[Mardur]

Iksar are terrible, ignore them.

Troll regen is great for the early game, but eventually becomes somewhat pointless, especially in Kunark. It's never completely useless but I wouldn't roll a troll with their 20% exp penalty and lousy stats.

Ogre would clearly be the winner for best stats and frontal stun immunity.

If you think you'll in whatever guild that will be getting first CT kills, you may want to go Barbarian solely for this: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=11647

If you go Ogre you can get one of these mid-game: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=13359

Ogre is the sure bet with better stats, but barbarians are still decentish. If you can get your hands on a Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer then it somewhat makes up for the stat / frontal stun immunity disparity. But in conclusion with all that considered, I'd still roll an Ogre if I wanted to choose the best race.

[Bockscar]

-Ogres get Infavision, not Ultravision (and if they do here, its a bug).

Who cares?

-Iskar get starting skill in Forage

Who gives a flying fuck?

-The role of holy symbols for the different races. Trolls of Innoruk get the best of them, the others are more toys

The inny symbol is more for PvE. With a cast time of six seconds for a 30ish second snare that barely snares, it's very rarely useful in PvP. Especially if they keep that bullshit early break code for snares.

-Faction, with faction being fixed by Nilborg, it is a factor on a pvp server. In many overland old world areas the Barbarian will have guards to run to, or to pvp/rest behind. Not so for the other races as much, without a lot of faction work.

This is relevant until leve 15 or so.

-Iskar can't use kunark armor for the clickies like free damage

Mostly only matters in PvE. People don't wear their Kunark armor in PvP, it gives no resists or HP and the clickies are mostly useless in PvP combat. You don't wanna spend 8 seconds casting a non-lure nuke that does like 180 damage after the PvP reduction.

-Iskar get their own shaman club quest, this quest is completable all the way up to a epic quality club on Al'kabor... NOT sure the timeline on it and if that epic quality club will be availible in Velious (or earlier?)

I think it goes up to only the third to last club on this server. I have no idea when the rest of them get added, but I wouldn't count on it being before Velious. I never did those quests on live and can't bother looking it up.

In the end? Always choose the race/class combo that will help you "get into" your character the most. Your character is your in game persona, not just a collection of numbers. The more you love the "style" and idea of your character, the more fun you will have in game. This is classic EQ, you wont be having accounts full of max level toons, well unless you grind for years. You got to love your main.

That's some blue as hell shit. I'm guessing most people here has already leveled at least a dozen characters to 50+, first on live and then on some of the various classic emu servers. You can be a hippie on a PvE server where your choice barely matters, but if you make a subpar choice on a PvP server, you'll pay for it.

Also it's iksar, not iskar.

[Doors]

Only reason to roll a barb shaman is for easy travel and the 2 hander from Fear that proc's winters roar. Only barbs can use it.

[Amuk]

I played an Ogre on live classic, then made a troll on Secrets box I think? Wow was I suprised how gay it is without frontal stun immunity. I always was jealous of troll regen on live but once I made a troll sham I realised how much gayer it is eating slams.

I don't know about Barbarian if you can get that hammer yada yada, not too many had it on live that I can really remember being significant - but from my personal experience Ogre all the way over Troll.

[Amuk]

I always thought Barbarians couldn't use the gatorsmash maul, maybe they changed it - since I smashed harazzer a few times on orig guildwars and he rerolled as a shadowknight because he couldnt use gatorsmash (shaman would hit full dmg almost always, and haste was max speed with any buff lol)

Either way Gatorsmash maul is fun for early ogre pvp.

[Bockscar]

By the way, standing troll regen is pretty much nothing until level 60. You get 2 standing at 50 while others get 1. You get 12 standing at 60 while others get 4. It'll never make any kind of difference in PvP where you presumably don't spend considerable time sitting down. It's for PvE where it adds a couple of flowing thought or so since you can canni-dance between ticks and get the full sitting regen.

In order for troll regen to yield 100 extra HP during a fight at level 50, that fight has to take 100 ticks (10 minutes).

In order for troll regen to yield 100 extra HP during a fight at level 60, that fight has to take 12,5 ticks (1,25 minutes).

For comparison, you could regenerate 3750 HP in 12,5 ticks with Torpor at basically no cost other than the self-snare which you can click off whenever you need to move. You could heal yourself 100+/sec casting chloroblast or superior healing, and since mana isn't a huge issue for a level 60 shaman, it's safe to say that the tiny amount of extra regen from troll/iksar is completely inconsequential.

A level 60 troll shaman with fungi and regrowth regenerates 42 HP per tick while standing. An ogre with fungi and regrowth regenerates 34 HP per tick while standing. The difference is completely negligible and will never approach the advantage of frontal stun immunity, the disadvantage of -20 fire resist, or for that matter the fact that ogres have like 50 more HP anyway from higher base stamina.

[Mardur]

I always thought Barbarians couldn't use the gatorsmash maul, maybe they changed it - since I smashed harazzer a few times on orig guildwars and he rerolled as a shadowknight because he couldnt use gatorsmash (shaman would hit full dmg almost always, and haste was max speed with any buff lol)

Either way Gatorsmash maul is fun for early ogre pvp.

Ogre / Troll only.

It's really Ogre vs. Barbarian, with Barbarian's only saving grace being the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer for some nice melee action. Go Ogre, you can get a Gatorsmash Maul much earlier / easily.

[Nirgon]

Barbarian, cold resist per level, lower xp penalty same as going HFL druid vs Wood druid, 5% diff.

Also, yeah its going to be a little more competitive than blue and being the cute or pretty/npc loved race is going to be something less important.

[Tumdumm]

play barb if youre a lil bitch
go ogre or troll if youre a champ

[Lasher]

style pts if you go barb sham and shit on all other shams. Think about it

[Softcore PK]

Being the cute and pretty race is always very important, pvp or no.

[stonetz]

style pts if you go barb sham and shit on all other shams. Think about it

IMO anything other than ogre gets style points. Based off advantages in pvp I don't think anything else matches them.

[gloinz]

By the way, standing troll regen is pretty much nothing until level 60. You get 2 standing at 50 while others get 1. You get 12 standing at 60 while others get 4. It'll never make any kind of difference in PvP where you presumably don't spend considerable time sitting down. It's for PvE where it adds a couple of flowing thought or so since you can canni-dance between ticks and get the full sitting regen.

In order for troll regen to yield 100 extra HP during a fight at level 50, that fight has to take 100 ticks (10 minutes).

In order for troll regen to yield 100 extra HP during a fight at level 60, that fight has to take 12,5 ticks (1,25 minutes).

For comparison, you could regenerate 3750 HP in 12,5 ticks with Torpor at basically no cost other than the self-snare which you can click off whenever you need to move. You could heal yourself 100+/sec casting chloroblast or superior healing, and since mana isn't a huge issue for a level 60 shaman, it's safe to say that the tiny amount of extra regen from troll/iksar is completely inconsequential.

A level 60 troll shaman with fungi and regrowth regenerates 42 HP per tick while standing. An ogre with fungi and regrowth regenerates 34 HP per tick while standing. The difference is completely negligible and will never approach the advantage of frontal stun immunity, the disadvantage of -20 fire resist, or for that matter the fact that ogres have like 50 more HP anyway from higher base stamina.

makes a difference if you got a dot on you and ur like lol im a troll bro

[stonetz]

makes a difference if you got a dot on you and ur like lol im a troll bro

If it's a ranger dot maybe, or low level disease. I mean a little regen never hurts but this isn't going to negate anything more painful than rabies.

[mourning]

Ogre Bro.

Barbarian are quite noble though...

[georgie]

whats some of the differances race wise as in pvp ect, have heard many people say ogres are better for pvp, just wondering whats the big differances

i would just wait for kunark to go iksar shaman. just go mage