Kelin's lucid lullaby

[Nizzarr]

Lets call it the bard aoe mez song.

This isnt working as intended. You shouldnt be able to reapply this song on "aoe mezzed" mobs over and over.

It has to break first before you can reapply it, as per this circa 2000 post.

>>>Kelin's Lucid Lullaby, I recently tested this song out vs. a level one human warrior. My Bard was level 37 at the time, using the Lute of the Gypsy Princess and I have charisma of 141. Every round I got the 'so and so head nods' message and every nearly every round the test subject was able to attack me (about 1 in 10 rounds he would not).

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/brentcopeland/quotes/abashi/jan06003.html

Kelin's Lucid Lullaby Area Effect song that puts things "to sleep" for a moment - Uses strings for added effect Many people absolutely love this song. I rarely use it myself, though. I think I had just misunderstood it when I first got it, and didn't bother to test it out fully, though. Later on, when I did try it out, I could see that it can be a useful song. Anyway, what it does is lull targets near you, and makes them forget all the damage people have done to it, I think. This basically means that the baddies forget about everyone attacking them? except for the bard singing lull, who they start to attack right after lull wears off. This song can be nice if you or your group just wants to fight one baddie at a time. However, it has been my experience, (albeit a limited one), that even with a constant singing of this song, the lulled baddies will still be "awake" enough time to deal out quite a bit of damage to the bard. The fact that this song is resisted very easily doesn't really help this situation. If you sing this is a group, here's a few things that could be helpful. For on, it may not be the best idea to try to twist in other songs; just concentrate on lullaby. Also, you have to make sure your group members all attack the SAME baddie, allowing you to lull the others. And one very important thing? make sure the healers are ready to heal you, since you'll likely be smacked around quit a little bit.

http://members.fortunecity.com/drabqe/index.html

Kelin’s Lucid Lullaby (AE Mezz): You should use it when you are in a new hunting ground
and don´t know if you can single pull the mobs. You can mezz up to four at once. This can be
an advantage when you don´t want to train others. The limited aggro range of most mobs
gives you the chance to escape fast enough without them following you


http://blog.amin.org/dapeng/2010/03/21/

This one also suggest it had a maximum of 4 targets.

15 Kelin's Lucid Lullaby Area Effect mesmerize. Lulls a maximum of 4 targets at a time. Mobs will nod off and remain so until song fades or when attacked. O S

http://brisk555666.tripod.com/id7.html

Another one that suggest only 4 targets.

Bards SHOULDNT be able to keep unlimited amount of mobs permanently mesmerized with this song.

That was an ability only meant for enchanters.

Right now a single bard can pull the whole dreadland zone or burning wood zone and keep the whole zone pretty much locked down, which is ridiculous. Not that anyone does that, but it could be done.

[Lazortag]

It has a level cap (of 25?) so you can't just pull all of dreadlands, and also you didn't prove that you couldn't re-mez mezzed mobs with it. See this:

However, it has been my experience, (albeit a limited one), that even with a constant singing of this song, the lulled baddies will still be "awake" enough time to deal out quite a bit of damage to the bard.

I take this to mean that passively keeping the song on won't be enough to keep mobs permanantly mezzed (since it only mezzes them for around a tick), but if you spam click the song then it will work. This is consistent with what other people have said in those comments.

There seems to be enough evidence that it could only mez up to 4 targets at once (at least at some point) but does that mean it was a pbae or a targeted ae?

[Nizzarr]

Theres no level cap on this right now.

Try it out for yourself.

I dont really get your "spam click the song", if you keep playing a song -- doesnt it reapply itself as fast as clicking on it? I thought that was the case.

Right now this song is causing issues on some raid encounter(eg: venril sathir being pulled to the zone line with 50 mobs, them all being CC'ed by one or two bards). Fixing this song would also fix issues with this encounter as a whole. You couldnt just pull him to the zone line unless you use some advanced pulling.

It has to be changed.

[Lazortag]

Ah, there was when it was still targeted on blue99 so I assumed it kept the level cap. I have strong evidence from an old castersrealm link that it should have a level cap in classic, let me find it.

edit: http://web.archive.org/web/20020113122555/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=996&Page=2

THIS SONG IS NOT USABLE OVER LEVEL 25, By Aaron (1/28/2001)

After seeing a post by Gordon (or GZ, I cant remember), They basically said that the song is not very usable after level 25. So, rather then the song having been nerfed, its that the effect is much less after attaining level 25.

There's other useful info on the first page. I don't think there was a level cap per se but above level 25 it became very hard to land (apparently it had a 35% chance of resisting on low GREENS according to that source). It also seems it should only land on 4 mobs maximum and it should be a pbae.

edit again: I previously reported that it had a cap above level 55 but I was mistaken. I think it's capped at 55 currently on blue99 but it's still not nearly easy enough to resist.

[Arrisard]

It has to break first before you can reapply it, as per this circa 2000 post.



http://www.angelfire.com/bc/brentcopeland/quotes/abashi/jan06003.html

^
Doesn't say that at all. It explains there are two checks, one vs MR and another vs level. And that the failure of the second check was not announced and needed to be addressed.

http://members.fortunecity.com/drabqe/index.html

^
Also states it's a memblur, heh.

http://blog.amin.org/dapeng/2010/03/21/

^
It also states that using the Jonthan's line is useless if you have a worn haste item because they don't stack :rolleyes:

http://brisk555666.tripod.com/id7.html

Still just cut and paste from EQDiva that every other thread about this has been based on. I think in the actual entry, there are a few comments specifically stating this is wrong and that there isn't a target cap. Was brought up in another recent thread about this song.

Theres no level cap on this right now.


You sure?


I dont really get your "spam click the song", if you keep playing a song -- doesnt it reapply itself as fast as clicking on it? I thought that was the case.


No, it does not work like that.

Anyways, I will agree that Kelin's isn't working as it should. But from reading, the only thing that is really missing in this point at time is the second level check to make it more resistable (or both checks are there, and they aren't working properly). This is the only thing I can see that's actually strongly supported by a reliable source from the first link. But he also mentions this check was present with the enchanter's line, too. Not to mention this check was removed at some point, not sure when though.

I really hate to sound nit-picky, but I don't put a lot of faith in these Billy Bob's guide to whatever that half the time was cut and pasted from other guides without any actual due diligence. Or rife with glaring errors as already pointed out. And a lot of the time have several comments regarding an entry as plain wrong. If that's the level of scrutiny we're going with, I can dig up some REALLY fun stuff. :D

[Nizzarr]

Were talking about a 12 years old game with many patches over the years. When you can get your hand on entries that describes those spells and they're dated around 2000, you cant really go wrong. Sure theirs some fallacies here and there but fact is, its pretty accurate.

The knowledge about the game back then was very minimal. People learned a lot of things over the 12 years this has been online. Those guides surely arent very accurate but theres some information there that matches in all these entries and thats how you can make a much more accurate statement about these spells.

From reading these entries, do you agree that the spell isnt working properly on this server?

Max level,
Number of targets,
the two resist checks,


I just wanted to point out that the current spell here is making bards unbalanced, they shouldnt be able to aoe mez 40 mobs at once. Thats wrong and thats what im looking to get fixed.

[Arrisard]

That doesn't make sense. The fact that knowledge about these effects being minimal by people writing guides with a number of glaring inaccuracies that were commonly just copy pasted from other guides doesn't mean you "can't go wrong". To me, that means completely the opposite, you can go wrong very quickly and easily when dealing with these questions.

Not to mention the only reference you have that's actually dated 2000, is the one that doesn't say anything about it's number of targets and only addresses the resist rate issue, which I still infact believe is the only issue that is has any validity to to the claim that it is over powered.

Anyways, like I said, here is the original song listing this whole thing seems to stem from:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010421163029/http://www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=15

Right off the bat you have someone saying that the entry is wrong, and if you go further in the timeline for that site you get more people saying that it is in fact wrong and they are able to mes more than 4 targets.

You're disregarding the entries (EDIT: to be fair, just haven't seen them, sorry) that don't support your theory in and saying the ones that do support it are the only ones that are correct without really giving a good reason. Hell, the last link you provided it just a straight word for word copy and said as much.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I'm not trying to be argumentitive, but trying to nail down what this song actually was during this time period is like trying to nail jello to a wall =X

[Kelsar]

I used to use this song with a bard friend of mine. We'd pull all of runnyeye; both would twist mez and AoE dots.
Original poster is right, the mez would just refresh.

Further, playing a bard performing this role normally would not have to wait for it to expire.

[Nizzarr]

After looking up on EQdiva, im now certain this song is heavily bugged on p1999.

What happens on p1999:

Bard aggro 100 mobs ranging from lvl 40-52, get them bunched up and will mez 95% of those mobs.

Heres what should happen:

Bard aggro 100 mobs ranging from lvl 40-52, get them bunched up and mezzes 20-25% of them, dieing quickly.

Here's some supporting comments from EQdiva from the era:

/cheer menaka

at 40+ this song is worthless.
at 54, I see greens resist this constantly.
granted, I only have 143 cha. But I try for more sta/hp than cha whenever possiable.

This song to me is level based.
At lower levels this would work great.



In my experience, the usefulness of this song truly is level-based. Prior to around 35ish, this spell hardly ever left my bar, it was incredibly useful and saved my parties several times. But as you get higher, you will find that resists dramatically increase and this song decreases in its usefulness. I last used it successfully when I was in my mid-40s and I got resists probably about 75% of the time (but the 25% success rate sqeaked us through alive). I've tested it in some of the low 50s dungeons where I have been fighting and it barely sticks, ever, even against mobs I can stick Pixie Strike to.

The sense I seem to get from what VI has said about Bards and crowd control is that they never wanted us to interfere with the enchanters, and AE mesmerize, as you can see in the lower levels, is amazingly powerful. So while they stay master of AE mez, we stay at least competitive with single target charm and crowd control .. and with our awesome lull ability to single pull.

Bottom line, use this a LOT in the lower levels, and enjoy the power while you have it. :)



I really hope the 28 pixie strike works well because this song has already outlived it usefulness. Resist rates at level 27 are around 95%, so all it really ever accomplishes is getting me killed, no longer ever memmed obvisously. BTW CHA is 119 so maybe thats the problem but my CHA is gonna go up anytime soon, I have limited resources and higher priorities for gear than CHA stuff.


So after more research, it appears you can mesmerize more than 4 targets at once but also that after lvl 30, this thing is resisted by pretty much anything.

It clearly isnt working as it should be and in its current form, way too overpowered.

[Lazortag]

Resist rates on crission's pixie strike (level 28 mez) should also be a bit higher. This is confirmed by pretty much every classic source I've consulted and I've bug reported this numerous times already. Song of twilight was the best one, it didn't resist nearly as much as pixie strike, and when its night-only restriction was removed it probably resisted about as often as pixie strike currently does on p99 (ie, pretty much never unless the mob is extremely close to your level).

[Brinkman]

Right now this song is causing issues on some raid encounter(eg: venril sathir being pulled to the zone line with 50 mobs, them all being CC'ed by one or two bards). Fixing this song would also fix issues with this encounter as a whole. You couldnt just pull him to the zone line unless you use some advanced pulling.

It has to be changed.

Amazing, this needs to be looked at.

Maybe Ill level a bard, group with a buddy in HS click this spell and post a Screenshot of my uberness as a bard.

[Nizzarr]

This should be resisted by anything over level 30 about 75%-90% of the time.

Right now resist rate is non existent. This is causing bards to be imbalanced in regards to AOE mezzing.

Bumping because its quite an important issue.

[Awwalike]

no more nerfing due to raiding 12 y/o's

[Calabee]

way op'd right now, should be fixed imo.. and yes, i play a bard as main.. so nerf me!

[Brinkman]

The entire raid scene will change when this is fixed. All you devs want to know why guilds in Hate can leap frog over another guild to Cazic with half the zone poped? Its not because they are good. When 2 Bards Can currently lock down the entire zone, there is Zero skill involved.


AoE groups in early EQ were extremely dangerous, and far and few between, as it stands right now its a joke.

Its been like this since the server started?

This is kinda crazy.

Mobs over lvl 30 have an inherant secondary resistance to Mez spells, Past the first check which is magic resist. Fix this!

[Lazortag]

The entire raid scene will change when this is fixed. All you devs want to know why guilds in Hate can leap frog over another guild to Cazic with half the zone poped? Its not because they are good. When 2 Bards Can currently lock down the entire zone, there is Zero skill involved.


AoE groups in early EQ were extremely dangerous, and far and few between, as it stands right now its a joke.

Its been like this since the server started?

This is kinda crazy.

Mobs over lvl 30 have an inherant secondary resistance to Mez spells, Past the first check which is magic resist. Fix this!

So much of your post is wrong. Firstly, AE groups have nothing to do with bard mez. If you use bard mez in an ae group then you're crazy because you'll just get killed when the mez breaks. Mez and stun are two different effects. Secondly, CT doesn't spawn in Hate. Thirdly, you don't need this song to zerg down CT with a fully popped zone. Fourthly it hasn't been like this since the server started, since kelin's lucid lullaby was (incorrectly) a targeted spell when the server started. Fifthly, I'm pretty sure this part:

Mobs over lvl 30 have an inherant secondary resistance to Mez spells, Past the first check which is magic resist. Fix this!

is only true for this spell, not for all mezzes.

Granted this song has to be nerfed, but the way to do it isn't to spread inaccurate information.

[Arrisard]

is only true for this spell, not for all mezzes.


From Nizzarr's first link:

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/brentcopeland/quotes/abashi/jan06003.html

"As most high level enchanters from Beta+ can tell you, there are two saving throws that happen with an “Enthrall” style effect (such as Kelin’s Lucid Lullaby) hits a creature. The first saving throw is against the target’s Magic Resistance. The second saving throw only happens with high level monsters – they get a secondary save based on their level."

^Gordon

How this check is applied to Kelin's and the enchanter lines, I do not know. But Kelin's wasn't the only one to have 2 checks.

One of the saving throws was removed at some point or altered, not sure when or which one, but I do remember a ruckus similar to the monk's sit in for FD happening at some point with Kelin's (also changed to single target at the same time, again, I think, not sure).

[Ungriim]

If bards get nerfed again it would be nice to also get a fix.
Suggestions:
Charisma
Charm/Swarm Kiting
Songs should stay while zoning
Song of Twilight revamp due
DoT while moving revamp due

Bards are just different right now than live. AE mez is better and charm is way worse.

[Brinkman]

Bards are just different right now than live. AE mez is better and charm is way worse.



Im sorry but atm Bard AE mez isnt " better" Thats a very nice way to put it. Its absurd right now. People, every guidl with a bard or two are being able to do things right now they shouldnt.

Swarm kiteing is currently broken because of the way charmed pet agro works in general. If they fix it it should apply to all class charmed pets. I agree with you there as well, swarm kiteing was very important and bards should be able to do it.

The rest of your issues, I would suggest posting Bug reports for each and bump them once every 3 days. Find old school links to support that its classic. Kanras and nilbog are doing very well with this suff atm.

[Brinkman]

So much of your post is wrong. Firstly, AE groups have nothing to do with bard mez. If you use bard mez in an ae group then you're crazy because you'll just get killed when the mez breaks. Mez and stun are two different effects.

I know they are different effects. This song can be used at the intial inc pull to control the mobs better, alowing chanters to aoe stun before AoE damage Starts. Thats all I was saying. Nothing huge but it chages a few things. I was part of many AoE groups as my Main was a Wizard from 1999-2004. Fungus grove pulls were so fun .. amiright?

Secondly, CT doesn't spawn in Hate.

Right. I was just typing fast and thats what came out. My bad. I know That CT is Fear, innoruuk is Hate etc etc.


Thirdly, you don't need this song to zerg down CT with a fully popped zone.

Maybe not... Maybe. But it sure makes it 100x easier when 2 bards can basically lock an entire RAID zone down by mashing 1 button.

Fourthly it hasn't been like this since the server started, since kelin's lucid lullaby was (incorrectly) a targeted spell when the server started.

Guess you knew a little more about the spell that you initially stated. Ovbiously some bards must have brought this up to get it changed from single to unlimited aoe, but when it was obvious that it was overpowered and hardly ever resited, tight lip syndrome miraculously happened.

Fifthly, I'm pretty sure this part:



is only true for this spell, not for all mezzes.

Granted this song has to be nerfed, but the way to do it isn't to spread inaccurate information.

See post 17

The only inaccurate thing I said was CT in Hate which was just an accidental error.

This spell needs to have that second check put in, and while the devs are at it, other mezez need to be looked at as well. We are so worried about giving pets weapon delay so folks cant pet zerg raid mobs with mad DPS, yet completely overpowered croud control spells, that are not classic has been missed for quite some time.

[Ungriim]

Trying to mez all of fear would be terrible. The resist rate on the Amys to AE mez is like 70%. There are other tricks.

[Lazortag]

Guess you knew a little more about the spell that you initially stated. Ovbiously some bards must have brought this up to get it changed from single to unlimited aoe, but when it was obvious that it was overpowered and hardly ever resited, tight lip syndrome miraculously happened.


I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but I basically never used this spell since it was changed because I thought for some reason it had a level cap of 25 (instead I used Crission's Pixie Strike, which also doesn't resist enough I believe, but I've already bug reported this). I always report Bard-related exploits, and I try hard never to abuse them in game. I have no doubt that this has been abused, but that doesn't mean that every Bard abused it. I also don't think it's had that much of an impact on the raid scene (based on a bit of common sense and also what Supremacy said), but I wouldn't know for sure because I barely ever get to play.

I misinterpreted the last part of your post, I thought you were saying that the proper resist rate for this spell (ie, constant resists even on greens) was also the proper resist rate for other mezzes.

[Nizzarr]

I also don't think it's had that much of an impact on the raid scene (based on a bit of common sense and also what Supremacy said)

Thats where you're wrong. Venril sathir in KC being pulled to the zone in is one example. People instant pull it on spawn because they know they got one or two bards able to mez the whole zone if it comes to that.

Cazic thule engage is another, all mobs summoned to CT's feet? np for a bunch of bards!

Also remember TR's proud video about plane of hate aoeing? well its a direct consequence of that song being overpowered, they had 2 bards at zone in casting this song while other people pulled the zone to the "oh hi im a bard I can mez a whole zone by myself" area.

Fix please~

[Nizzarr]

not sure if this has been looked at, but this needs to be fixed.


hearty bump. is this allowed here? :P

[Nizzarr]

bump, once again, 40+ mobs mezzed by 2 bards in the Venril sathir trainfest.

Here's my proposed fix, make it go down to 4 mobs max with the current resist or pull your hairs out and add another resist check that works.

On a side note, its even worse for the zone to not let people pull VS to the zone line, the zone was a train mess for 30 minutes. If this happened during peak hours, youd have a mirrion petition to deal with. just saying!

[Nizzarr]

Do we have to do #occupykarnor to get a word on this? I'll get two naked bards and get the whole zone CC'ed at entrance for an hour or more!

[pickled_heretic]

Lullaby Trials

Me – level 40 Bard with 117 CHR and a Lute
Snake – level 1 MOB with green scales

Procedure: I turned on my attack and hit the snake once. I then turned off my attack and sat still with the Lullaby on. I did not juggle songs.

*My attack was turned off so that I would not hit the snake again and invalidate the Sleep effect.
*I did not juggle songs as Lullaby has a very short duration, and I could not be assured of putting it back to sleep in time.
*I did not move so that I would not accidentally wander out of the AoE range of Lullaby.


Trial 1
27……..Head nods (and it stays asleep – as it should)
00……..Head nods (and it attacks anyway)
10……..Made save (and it attacks – as it should)


Trial 2
19…….Head nods (and it stays asleep – as it should)
01…….Head nods (and it attacks anyway)
11…….Made save (and it attacks – as it should)

Interrupted by 2nd snake – trial ended


Trial 3
40…….Head nods (and it stays asleep – as it should)
00…….Head nods (and it attacks anyway)
17…….Made save (and it attacks – as it should)


Out of 125 “pulses” of Lullaby, only once did the snake attack after I saw its head nod.

Now, some of the confusion might come from the message:

Your target has resisted your attempt to mesmerize it.
A snake’s head nods.

You get this message when your target makes a resist, just like you get the message that your target “bursts into flames” with a fire spell, even if it saves for partial damage.

Conclusion: Vs. a level one creature, the song worked even better then I remembered it working.

-snip-

Geoffrey Zatkin
Arch Mage of Norrath
Game Designer @ Verant Interactive

Can we please get a dev to respond? This is a quote from Geoffrey Zatkin (EQ game developer) from early 2000 indicating that the aoe bard mez cast by a lvl 40 bard should be resisted 35% of the time BY A LVL 1 MOSS SNAKE with HARD DATA. I found it farming through Nizzar's links.

[kanras]

Added secondary resist check dependent on caster's level (if above 25), pending update.