Since 61% of forum voted against Null's VZTZ resist system, a compromise is in order

[MakeYouMad]

You can't argue with the poll, 61% of players voted against the VZTZ crowd control system in the other thread. If you're trying to build a high population server, it can't have something that such a large percent oppose. The compromise plan is that we'll take the resist system with 1/2 the amount of crowd control spells landing.

Compromise Plan:

1. The stuns can stay because they affect all classes equally. Classes with stuns: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Enchanter, Paladin, Bard, Mage (pet), and possibly Necro screaming terror spell.

2. Root and snare function like normal EQ live and won't land on high resists: It only lands 2-5% of the time on 100-120MR+ with normal duration.


Reasons for the compromise plan

1. The original Null system that allows root and snare to easily land, nerfs pure melee classes too much while upgrading hybrids who were already more powerful to begin with. This throws melee balance completely out the window, especially when you factor in hybrids having channeling skill to channel pumice and pure melee don't. Classes like Rogue are already bad enough on a PvP server that any nerf to them is completely unreasonable.

2. Paladins and rangers chain casting root in between swings of a 2h is extremely unbalanced. If you think allowing root and snare spam actually benefits casters, wait till you 1vs1 a paladin or ranger and experience this.

3. There is no caster balance problem that changes to direct damage resists and stuns doesn't fix. If classes like clerics and enchanters can land nukes and stuns, they would be extremely viable. Adding more crowd control than this just causes way more balance problems than it solves. Especially since the other CC spells have no recast timer.

[Wonton]

i am so fucking furious right now. congratulations Makeyoumad, you've done your job. you can go now

[Galacticus]

Need to test them BOTH to see if they work. This needs an undecided category. How can I comment on what I havn't tested? You force me you choose the only thing I can actually play.

[MakeYouMad]

Need to test them BOTH to see if they work. This needs an undecided category. How can I comment on what I havn't tested? You force me you choose the only thing I can actually play.

This isn't rocket science dude. The first option is more similar to normal EQ except stuns land sometimes instead of always resisting. Higher MR lowers the duration and odds of it landing. (they have a recast timer, wizard's is 24s for instance so hard to abuse them by spamming them over and over on people). This affects casters, hybrids, and melee equally.

The Null option (second choice) is, you are constantly bombarded with roots, snares, stuns, and blinds. It's like playing Dark Age of Camelot before they added crowd control immunity timers. Some guy spams roots on you while 10 people beat the shit out of you with axes or nukes and you die without being able to do anything.

[Galacticus]

This isn't rocket science dude. The first option is more similar to normal EQ except stuns land instead of always resisting. Higher MR lowers the duration and odds of it landing. (they have a recast timer, wizard's is 24s for instance so hard to abuse them by spamming them over and over on people). This affects casters, hybrids, and melee equally.

The second option is, you are constantly bombarded with roots, snares, stuns, and blinds. It's like playing Dark Age of Camelot before they added crowd control immunity timers. Some guy spams roots on you while 10 people beat the shit out of you with axes or nukes and you die without being able to do anything.

Seriously?

Option 1: Sounds nice but isn't anywhere near how specific it needs to be.

Option 2: I am constantly bombarded ? Like Dark Age of Camelot? Oh that explains it.

You gotta be kidding me.

[MakeYouMad]

Seriously?

Option 1: Sounds nice but isn't anywhere near how specific it needs to be.

Option 2: I am constantly bombarded ? Like Dark Age of Camelot? Oh that explains it.

You gotta be kidding me.

Did you play EQ live PvP or VZTZ? Or any other PvP MMORPG? Most people know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Smedy]

Not sure how current this is, but i did some testing yesterday with some pals, and the new resist code seems a ton better then previously. If you haven't tested it yet go do it, there might still be flaws but it's alot better now.

[DarthPeon]

yes i played. And what you are essentially mouthing off about constantly is a crew like casts who will most likely roll around in a group taking on solo players initially.

Well what this system forces is for you to talk to people, make friends and get your own crew. If you insist on soloing and not being mindful of who is in your zone, then you may just get chain-CCed as described. But get real, if anything this system promotes more group pvp which is a plus.

Who is your level 50 beta character with a 100-150 resist gear again? We all missed that part...

[MakeYouMad]

Well what this system forces is for you to talk to people, make friends and get your own crew.

You just told everyone what they need to know about your view on game balance. You're saying you support a system that forces people to zerg just to play at all. You would be right at home in communist China where you can be a nice little cog in the machine doing your part for great leader Hu Jintao.

You also didn't address any of the obvious, glaring balance problems the original Null option brings such as melee vs hybrid balance, melee not getting channeling skill, classes like rogues who already sucked being even less viable of a choice, etc.

You can fix all caster problems by the compromise option without screwing up melee balance.

[Galacticus]

Yes I played Classic Eq. Started when it came out and stopped in planes of power. I have played on Sullon from release till when I quit and before that Tallon and Rallos Zek. I also played DAOC and a bunch of other pvp mmos.

I have not played VZTZ.



In original eq, melee were weak until they could get high resists vs casters. You can pvp effectively as a caster without your snare or root, thats how it was in classic, those spells never landed at high end unless you had a debuffer with you.

A caster or a hybrid has to also get resist gear like a pure melee does to be able to resist spells and roots. It is just that the pure melee are the ones who suffer the most until they get their gear. Then that boosts them over the top because they already had superior melee stats and now their only weakness is taken away.

If you look at sullon zek leader boards you will see towards the begining of server release the casters dominated the charts, but once all the melee started gearing up they took over top spots.

Why not have these spells land more often so they actually get used more?

Groups of people running around spam snaring? You want to be able to run away? Where would you go? You think you wouldnt get debuffed and then rooted or snared? What travesty are you trying to prevent and where is the proof this will happen?

[DarthPeon]

You just told everyone what they need to know about your view on game balance. You're saying you support a system that forces people to zerg just to play at all. You would be right at home in communist China where you can be a nice little cog in the machine doing your part for great leader Hu Jintao.

You also didn't address any of the obvious, glaring balance problems the original Null option brings such as melee vs hybrid balance, melee not getting channeling skill, classes like rogues who already sucked being even less viable of a choice, etc.

You can fix all caster problems by the compromise option without screwing up melee balance.


Ya you're right, i stopped logically answering your posts 10 threads ago.

And guess where you'll be right at home? Democratic Iran... :rolleyes:

You keep questioning authority with the notion that this is a democratic system that needs your baseless untested opinion. Little do you know - Rogean is the mother fucking Ayatolla. You're hiking in the wrong place son.

[mostbitter]

root should only work on poor dumb asses who dont have 115 mr

[Galacticus]

You just told everyone what they need to know about your view on game balance. You're saying you support a system that forces people to zerg just to play at all. You would be right at home in communist China where you can be a nice little cog in the machine doing your part for great leader Hu Jintao.

You also didn't address any of the obvious, glaring balance problems the original Null option brings such as melee vs hybrid balance, melee not getting channeling skill, classes like rogues who already sucked being even less viable of a choice, etc.

You can fix all caster problems by the compromise option without screwing up melee balance.


I just don't hear a viable solution here. How will rogues be fixed and make them more viable? They will still have to get to 40 or 50 to get the gear they need to be immune to snares and roots in classic eq rules.

Glaring imbalance problems with melee vs hybrids? Classic has a -40% exp penalty for a reason. Not to mention melee skills are higher and they will put out more dps then your paladin/ranger/sk.

Not to mention the pally sk and ranger all can cancel magic without a stone.

[MakeYouMad]

Little do you know - Rogean is the mother fucking Ayatolla.

Pretty sure Rogean has stated he doesn't have much or any PvP experience so he's basically just taking Null's word for it that everything he's implementing is reasonable.

61% of people already voted against it on the other forum poll. There needs to be a compromise between that 61% and Null if this server is to maintain any sort of population.

[Cwall]

stop posting this shit over and over faggot

god damn you're dumb

[Lovely]

Makeyoumad is a fkin moron so I'm gonna vote against anything he likes. Also please ban this idiot. What's his name on beta btw? Need to do some bind camping.

[Billbike]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbwp1921ei1qbbpaoo1_500.png

The resist system will be tweaked until the MAJORITY of beta testers agree it works.

Null is the scapegoat for people who don't have the balls to call out Rogean or Nilbog. Null does not dictate the direction of the server.

All these people who say they "lose interest" or "won't play" if it's not 1000% classic are full of shit.

They will play because :
It's free, it's well maintained, and it's the ONLY source for "CLASSIC" PvP.

[Lovely]

I decided to log on and actually test resists for real and take some screenshots since there are numerous dumb retards on these forum spreading lies. Not a single one of them actually have a 50 char on beta with good resists. So I wouldn't even spend 1 second listening to a single word they say.

Anyway after reading their bullshit I decided to log and try root before I head out. When I get back home I'm gonna do similar tests with every spell I have.

I posted a comment on every root I casted if it actually hit me.

a) 0.1 seconds basically means that it's off before you even notice you've been rooted. It just stop your char and then you can click forward instantly to move again.

b) 0.5 is similar to 0.1 but like a micro second longer, both these is basically like having a full resist.

Here is the screensshots!

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/m7s87036.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/Pda87054.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/hol87065.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/B0887085.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/a2w87091.jpg

I have no freaking clue how the so called TZVZ system worked cause I haven't played this game for 8-10 years. But I'm loving the way this system works. With high resists you can get CC'd but when you do it will last a really short time. There is also no way to lock someone down with a system like this which many people complained about. Sure if you have like 4 people spammin CC on you then you can probably locked down quite well. But CMON if you're in a 1v5 1v6 situation then you deserve to be locked down and killed. On top of that more then half the classes have ways off getting out of CC anyway so most of you will be able to escape 1v5 situations anyway. I know I will on a Wizard at least. Every class has access to instant dispell as well.

[Palemoon]

People just need to ignore these dubious trolls and the lies they are spreading to try and make a server that caters to one thing only: creating an atmosphere condusive to griefing.

I think Null's resist system will be great for the servers health. Solo grief druids and wizards..sorry but when you swoop in to pick off a player or two out of a group you are going to get root/snare spammed and corpse camped. Which is what you deserve for taking on a group. (the last two sentences is what has the TZVZ trolls up in arms btw)

[Danien]

The fact that so many people keep referring to the leaderboard when discussing PvP-balance is a strong argument that opinions on the forum should not be considered in the slightest.

[MakeYouMad]

I decided to log on and actually test resists for real and take some screenshots

You're landing tons of roots over and over on yourself with 140MR which is a lot more than most rogues and monks will have in classic. Something like 100-120MR is what a well geared rogue will have and a monk will have probably 80-100. Don't even try to pretend like everyone on the server will have a Tranix crown plus Jacinth rings either.

With lower resist, they last longer and land even easier. You claim the duration is too short to matter, but this just leaves the door open for Null to change it to whatever he wants at any time before beta closes or after release.

If all it takes to get a free kill is one guy spamming you with a constant stream of roots and snares while another guy does damage, then it's gonna be mindless, no-talent, zerg based PvP.


Solo grief druids and wizards..sorry but when you swoop in to pick off a player or two out of a group you are going to get root/snare spammed and corpse camped. Which is what you deserve for taking on a group. (the last two sentences is what has the TZVZ trolls up in arms btw)

A solo player attacking an entire group of even cons is not a grief player ya idiot. What fucking planet is this guy from?

[MakeYouMad]

the issue is not that it lands for 1 - 4 seconds on average, the issue is that it removes speed buffs and therefore when it breaks you are still effectively snared anyway.

even if you have jboots to hit once it breaks, your foes likely have sow.


Behold, all the druids, rangers, and shaman instantly change their vote to be against root landing.

An EQ classic mechanic of root removing SOW, yet a non-classic mechanic of root landing a million times more often than it should converge into the ultimate bullshit fest.

[Billbike]

[/IMG]Behold, all the druids, rangers, and shaman instantly change their vote to be against root landing.

An EQ classic mechanic of root removing SOW, yet a non-classic mechanic of root landing a million times more often than it should converge into the ultimate bullshit fest.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/1/3/8a9e54e2-3a0f-4946-a9ab-c07541b9f686.jpg


You will play either way. Just accept it.

[Lovely]

Seems like people prefer the current system. Every single non hardcore player should definitely prefer it since it won't put raid geared people in godmode. You'll actually have a chance vs anyone with equal skill in a 1v1 even if they have better gear. I'm not a casual myself so I suppose I should prefer the GODMODE classic system but I prefer a challenge so I'm voting with the casuals.

[georgie]

why dont we let the important devs call a compromise

[gloinz]

Seems like people prefer the current system. Every single non hardcore player should definitely prefer it since it won't put raid geared people in godmode. You'll actually have a chance vs anyone with equal skill in a 1v1 even if they have better gear. I'm not a casual myself so I suppose I should prefer the GODMODE classic system but I prefer a challenge so I'm voting with the casuals.

its not hard at all to get resists to the point where u can resist root/snare all the time with classic eq resist style, you don't need raid gear

it puts people at a bigger disadvantage if they get rooted partially nonstop rather then being able to run and split the zerglings up and then ambush them like a apache warrior

[Softcore PK]

Behold, all the druids, rangers, and shaman instantly change their vote to be against root landing.

An EQ classic mechanic of root removing SOW, yet a non-classic mechanic of root landing a million times more often than it should converge into the ultimate bullshit fest.

Three classes that are very good, possibly overpowered PK classes.

[gloinz]

Three classes that are very good, possibly overpowered PK classes.
ranger
overpowered
lol

[Wonton]

You're landing tons of roots over and over...

Exact opposite of what Lovely's screenshots showed. God, you are dumb, for real.

[Sprinkle]

Seems like people prefer the current system. Every single non hardcore player should definitely prefer it since it won't put raid geared people in godmode. You'll actually have a chance vs anyone with equal skill in a 1v1 even if they have better gear. I'm not a casual myself so I suppose I should prefer the GODMODE classic system but I prefer a challenge so I'm voting with the casuals.

you are definitley not a casual lovely , casuals have lives , you fail at life hard and your posts show it

[Lovely]

you are definitley not a casual lovely , casuals have lives , you fail at life hard and your posts show it

lol you're pathetic. I almost should brag about my life but I rather not cause then ill be equally pathetic. Who are you in game btw? Making a list of people who I'll enjoy destroying EXTRA EXTRA MUCH!

[georgie]

I decided to log on and actually test resists for real and take some screenshots since there are numerous dumb retards on these forum spreading lies. Not a single one of them actually have a 50 char on beta with good resists. So I wouldn't even spend 1 second listening to a single word they say.

Anyway after reading their bullshit I decided to log and try root before I head out. When I get back home I'm gonna do similar tests with every spell I have.

I posted a comment on every root I casted if it actually hit me.

a) 0.1 seconds basically means that it's off before you even notice you've been rooted. It just stop your char and then you can click forward instantly to move again.

b) 0.5 is similar to 0.1 but like a micro second longer, both these is basically like having a full resist.

Here is the screensshots!

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/m7s87036.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/Pda87054.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/hol87065.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/B0887085.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/a2w87091.jpg

I have no freaking clue how the so called TZVZ system worked cause I haven't played this game for 8-10 years. But I'm loving the way this system works. With high resists you can get CC'd but when you do it will last a really short time. There is also no way to lock someone down with a system like this which many people complained about. Sure if you have like 4 people spammin CC on you then you can probably locked down quite well. But CMON if you're in a 1v5 1v6 situation then you deserve to be locked down and killed. On top of that more then half the classes have ways off getting out of CC anyway so most of you will be able to escape 1v5 situations anyway. I know I will on a Wizard at least. Every class has access to instant dispell as well.

lol at those recharged-instant clickies

[Darksinga]

Umm... root landed somewhere around 16 times with 28 resists.

16 times? even if it's partial or whatnot, wtf?

I just hope it's not the same thing when you have 200+ MR, bard rooted, casting pumice/shadowstep instead of resist song so my resists fade, then I get hit by a stun or another root that shouldn't land and I'm dead.

Bard's main viability is practically the immunity to magic spells so I can run circles around kids. And yes, bard was god mode against MR spells and always have been, so stfu about some custom balance bs

[mimixownzall]

I decided to log on and actually test resists for real and take some screenshots since there are numerous dumb retards on these forum spreading lies. Not a single one of them actually have a 50 char on beta with good resists. So I wouldn't even spend 1 second listening to a single word they say.

Anyway after reading their bullshit I decided to log and try root before I head out. When I get back home I'm gonna do similar tests with every spell I have.

I posted a comment on every root I casted if it actually hit me.

a) 0.1 seconds basically means that it's off before you even notice you've been rooted. It just stop your char and then you can click forward instantly to move again.

b) 0.5 is similar to 0.1 but like a micro second longer, both these is basically like having a full resist.

Here is the screensshots!

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/m7s87036.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/Pda87054.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/hol87065.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/B0887085.jpg

http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/a2w87091.jpg

I have no freaking clue how the so called TZVZ system worked cause I haven't played this game for 8-10 years. But I'm loving the way this system works. With high resists you can get CC'd but when you do it will last a really short time. There is also no way to lock someone down with a system like this which many people complained about. Sure if you have like 4 people spammin CC on you then you can probably locked down quite well. But CMON if you're in a 1v5 1v6 situation then you deserve to be locked down and killed. On top of that more then half the classes have ways off getting out of CC anyway so most of you will be able to escape 1v5 situations anyway. I know I will on a Wizard at least. Every class has access to instant dispell as well.

You think that's great until a chanter shows up and casts his mez to interrupt you over and over again while you slowly die to his crappy pet.

[DarthPeon]

lol you're pathetic. I almost should brag about my life but I rather not cause then ill be equally pathetic. Who are you in game btw? Making a list of people who I'll enjoy destroying EXTRA EXTRA MUCH!

i'll take the liberty to name him, he's cozmonaut. If you're going to camp anyone, camp that little shit-packing gnome. :p

[Lovely]

If I see a Enchanter casting mez on me then I pop a crimson potion for 15pp? Not really a big deal

[lethdar]

You think that's great until a chanter shows up and casts his mez to interrupt you over and over again while you slowly die to his crappy pet.

You're a moron who has tested nothing. Get fucked palski.

[mimixownzall]

If I see a Enchanter casting mez on me then I pop a crimson potion for 15pp? Not really a big deal

Crimson pot doesn't save you from your spells getting interrupted. Also, I said while his pet slowly kills you (you know, they break mez and stuff).

[Silikten]

Just want to point out how stupid OP is. Loss of char control spells (stun, fear) are way more deadly than root/snare. At least you can pumice, gate, ss, yonder, da while rooted/snared, but if you get stunned you are useless.

I'd rather be snared/rooted than stunned.

Oh, and thanks Lovely for your post. :)

[mimixownzall]

Seems like people prefer the current system. Every single non hardcore player should definitely prefer it since it won't put raid geared people in godmode. You'll actually have a chance vs anyone with equal skill in a 1v1 even if they have better gear. I'm not a casual myself so I suppose I should prefer the GODMODE classic system but I prefer a challenge so I'm voting with the casuals.

The more I see you spew out dumb shit like this the more baffled I get.

So you're telling me that making CC spells viable doesn't make those who have them even MORE powerful and those who don't even less? How fucking stupid are you?

Wizards ruled Sullon Zek. That was without their CC spells working. Can you imagine how much worse it would have been if their CC spells would have worked? How many more kills would these wizards have had if they could have rooted the people who ran when they got that first nuke on them or happened to run when they saw him?

The sceptical side of me think that you might be playing your hand so it is to your advantage in the end, but I just don't think you are that smart.

[mimixownzall]

You're a moron who has tested nothing. Get fucked palski.

Really? How many bugs have you submitted? How many have I submitted?

That's what I thought.

[Lovely]

The more I see you spew out dumb shit like this the more baffled I get.

So you're telling me that making CC spells viable doesn't make those who have them even MORE powerful and those who don't even less? How fucking stupid are you?

Wizards ruled Sullon Zek. That was without their CC spells working. Can you imagine how much worse it would have been if their CC spells would have worked? How many more kills would these wizards have had if they could have rooted the people who ran when they got that first nuke on them or happened to run when they saw him?

The sceptical side of me think that you might be playing your hand so it is to your advantage in the end, but I just don't think you are that smart.

I couldn't care less what system they use. I'll play either way and I support whatever decision the devs make. But I think it's BS to have godmode to CC at 100+ MR like it was in Classic. I have no clue if Wizards ruled Sullon Zek or not. But being able to CC or not basically makes no difference at all for a Wizard unless it's for picking off weak players with no gear at all or low level scrubs. None of those two categories of players interest me at all. I prefer to destroy the hardcore loud mouth players who think they are all that. It's way more fun that way especially since they always make a huge fuss about it and cry like little babies when you kill them. Which I've proved today in these two threads.

I'm also pretty sure you'll be in the category that I won't enjoy killing. A scrub who does his talking on forums instead of in game.

[Silikten]

Wizards ruled Sullon Zek.

Must of been a terrible pool of pvp talent then. LOL

[Amuk]

Eh I disagree, if you think CC spells landing promotes the casuals you're pretty far off. It'll be the fully decked hybrids/melee train from a cooridinated hardcore player base that will destroy your shit. You can't shake a melee train snared, target ring or not - the biggest group of retards would zerg me down on vz/tz when snare landed. I literally out jousted Jakkt with 10 dmg daggers, but oh no grp pvp im snared with 180 mr and now he's a godmode tstaff monk instead of a retard who can't time shit.

[Lovely]

It depends on the situation. It's easy to avoid a big zerg of people if you /who frequently. Personally I say it would allow the casual player a chance to beat the hardcore people in 1v1 when they actually can land spells on them. Instead of being totally destroyed by every godmode melee or caster with high resists. That's my opinion though

[Amuk]

Wrong again, if cc spells land consistently you just won't see godmode melee riding solo. You'll see them leading the charge of a cooridinated guild in a bard group destroying snared people. I mean if resists are being "balanced" for casuals to fight 1v1 I'd probably want to put a gun in my mouth for waiting this long. I don't think anyone wants all spells to be 100% resisted with gear, just the game breaking dumbing grp pvp down ones.

BTW I don't think anyone wants all spells resisted, ebolt/plague/lava bolt/ice comet are going to wreak some havoc on your 1200 hp wizard regardless if he's snared.

[Titanuk]

lovely worked so hard for all her phat lewts, just to have them all taken away

[Lovely]

lovely worked so hard for all her phat lewts, just to have them all taken away

Actually most of my gear was given to me. Who are you in game? I'm sure I've hurt you as well.

Amuk if those people run around in groups then you got nothing to fear. If you're alone exping somewhere and you see a group of people entering the zone then you just run away. On the other hand if you see 1 or 2 people entering then you'll most likely stay and go on with your business. I don't see how groups running around will kill anyone beside those who totally lack awareness.

[Amuk]

Nvm I see your point now. When you say casual you literally mean someone who takes a year to grind to 50, and doesn't fight for anything significant. I call those people scrubs, I call casuals guilds like kotwr/FOI/SOTG etc on TZ, or like vesica dei on p99. People that actually raid/progress, just arn't on top - with the "casuals" resist system it'll be like 25-0 k/d for the cooridinated melee train guild compared to the casual guild.

[Awwalike]

can't make it like it was on zek? not emulated fake zek.

[Lovely]

Nvm I see your point now. When you say casual you literally mean someone who takes a year to grind to 50

Yes this is exactly what I mean with casuals and those are usually the majority of any game.

[Amuk]

At least we got the opinion from a person from the n00b caster portion of the server. Make roots/snares land so 1v1 will be balanced (aka in favor of casters shitting on geared melee in the open) and just gate out when more than 2 people enter your zone. Forget about guilds fighting over dragons and planes, because honestly, mostly everyone will be 1v1ing in open zones.

You crack me up.

[Lovely]

looool is all I have to say

Guilds fighting for planes/dragons will have a similar amount of casters and players so whatever system you use won't really matter will it?

Stop commenting on my stuff please cause I won't matter anyway. I already know they will use a system that ill like and so do you :):):):). Also you don't seem to understand when I troll or when i don't and it makes it all very booriiinnnng! PEACE OUT YO

[MakeYouMad]

Just want to point out how stupid OP is. Loss of char control spells (stun, fear) are way more deadly than root/snare. At least you can pumice, gate, ss, yonder, da while rooted/snared, but if you get stunned you are useless.

I'd rather be snared/rooted than stunned.

That's the whole fucking point. Stuns affect pure melee, hybrids, and casters equally. There's no reason to have 4 second long, chain castable root spam in the game when stun can accomplish the same task, is harder to abuse due to reuse timers, and doesn't screw over certain classes while barely affecting others.

[Authority]

You guys talk about melee rape trains like that will be the norm. Caster gank squads will be much more prevelant. As far as gate, ss, yonder, da, the only classes that can do that are the same ones casting said roots/snares.

I would prefer not to be perma rooted. I don't want to play a caster. I want to be viable in pvp. Is that too much to ask?

[Sprinkle]

on classic yes melee need kunark so pick a caster till then or get farmed

AND STFU ABOUT BALANCE ITS NOT COMING

[Xantille]

Lolz @ poll results.

[Jigga]

Bump to remind wehrmacht

[Fryden Goldenbeard]

This poll is retarded.. =)

[MakeYouMad]

Poll is starting to swing back to the 60/40 against Null system again.

[naez]

lovely worked so hard for all her phat lewts, just to have them all taken away

i ♥ u

[SearyxTZ]

Null's system, for reasons I've already listed below.

I also have a board name that aligns with the character name I've used while playing on basically every noteworthy EQ PvP server to exist. I'd say this already puts me on more credible ground than the OP, who is effectively anonymous, but I'll let yall decide.


The classic EQ resist system allowed you to become effectively immune to CC, stuns, magic-based nukes, etc. The gap between a melee with 50 MR and a melee with 110 MR was massive, and the fact that the curve allowed you to hit over 95% resistance to anything made it imbalanced to the point where several classes were rendered either useless or underpowered against anyone with moderate gear (Enchanters, Clerics, Rangers).

That same gap was less glaring on VZTZ, because the resist curve was smarter. The most you could flat-out resist a spell was in the 80's (rather than near-100%). Partial resists were frequent on CC spells. This prevented situations like someone landing an Ensnare that lasts for 15 minutes. In classic it was near impossible to land anyway, but when you did land it, it was stupidly overpowered. Effectively capping resists around 85-90% (instead of 95-99%) also meant that there's not quite as much of a gear advantage to be had.

Remember that guy on TZ (you don't, but let's pretend you do) during Velious who was fucking horrible at the game, but unkillable because he was in the top raid guild and had all of those sparkly Uber Raid Items he got from playing 80 hours a week?

Yeah - we don't want that this time around.

[SearyxTZ]

Also to break down further why having partial resists is so important: do you want to be playing a game that is entirely luck/chance-based (sans melee versus melee fights), or skill-based?


Because luck and chance are all you're getting when you throw away partials and just have an all-or-nothing resist system.

That means a Wizard can either land two 1100 damage ice comets in a row (and one shot someone), or get five full resists in a row (not even scratching them). This is why partial resists are so important. This is also why having an obtainable unbuffed 95+% resist rate is absurd.

I don't think the old classic system has to be tweaked that much to work well and strike a better balance.

[Sprinkle]

groupie ^ ^ ^ ^

[Amuk]

Clerics arn't useless if people are immune to MR based cc's, that's a hilarious claim. Most people in classic won't have jac rings/t crowns/mith arms and legs etc etc so with tash I imagine enchanters will still be viable (like they were in classic), and as for rangers they really arn't that impressive even if snares are landing.

I think you're refering to Telen? I remember him getting that advantage because he grinded AA's in velks 8 hours a day and was maxed out w/ primal advantage (after velious) - even if he was snarable he would have still had that advantage, especially as an SK being able to snare his targets. I would attack him in a corner facing out and lose the fight if he was afk, partially because he had a cleric/chanter bot and an insane gear advantage.

I don't see why someone would try to balance eq pvp - original eq was such a random mix of traits that made it awsome that current mmo's can't match, fucking with crucial things like resists are the biggest piss off this server could do. Leave it classic.

[Amuk]

BTW I don't think anyone gives a fuck about a partial nuke system, TBH I remember nukes landing large even classic, one of our biggest hitters was Graef.

[gloinz]

Also to break down further why having partial resists is so important: do you want to be playing a game that is entirely luck/chance-based (sans melee versus melee fights), or skill-based?


Because luck and chance are all you're getting when you throw away partials and just have an all-or-nothing resist system.

That means a Wizard can either land two 1100 damage ice comets in a row (and one shot someone), or get five full resists in a row (not even scratching them). This is why partial resists are so important. This is also why having an obtainable unbuffed 95+% resist rate is absurd.

I don't think the old classic system has to be tweaked that much to work well and strike a better balance.

??? what luck are you talking about

95% chance of resisting root or

30% chance of resisting 35% of it landing 3 secounds and 35% of it landing for 1 secound

sounds like theres more luck involved with the dumb system you think is right

[Amuk]

The gap between 50 mr and 110 mr is massive? No shit? This game is about character/gear progression are you expecting kids with wolfseye bracers and a dwarven ringmail tunic to be competing high end? This is some dumbing down shit right here.

[Sprinkle]

people are crybabies with 100 MR you could dispell a sow easier then you could land a root offing it

whats the problem here again?

[Amuk]

Sounds like an enchanter utility.

[Amuk]

I hate to spam this thread but it's just so horribly inaccurate, when you say the top raiding guild you mean the only raiding guild right - Pandemonium being the only guild in Ntov and only guild to have primals is a quite a unique gap. It's literally all the top raid gear in one guild, clearly their most dedicated hybrids will be able to shit on people.

[Null]

??? what luck are you talking about

95% chance of resisting root or

30% chance of resisting 35% of it landing 3 secounds and 35% of it landing for 1 secound

sounds like theres more luck involved with the dumb system you think is right

Except thats not how it works :P

[Amuk]

Can you shed some insight on how it does, are you recreating classic or making max resists chance closer to 80% like Searyx was saying. It really is kind of a big mechanic to choose a class around heh.

[Ssleeve]

I appreciate the effort Null, I think people need to take a step back and realize you're doing the best you can to make this a fun/entertaining server for everyone.

inb4 nut rider.

[SearyxTZ]

I hate to spam this thread but it's just so horribly inaccurate, when you say the top raiding guild you mean the only raiding guild right - Pandemonium being the only guild in Ntov and only guild to have primals is a quite a unique gap. It's literally all the top raid gear in one guild, clearly their most dedicated hybrids will be able to shit on people.


Yes, and the reason for this is....?

The gear (and later AA point) advantage was one of the biggest killers of any semblence of PvP balance that EQ had, which is why people most fondly remember the classic/kunark eras for PvP and not the later expansions.

Look no further than Aspit after the first few expansions. The gap between him and a casual player of the same level/class was hilarious. To the point where he literally couldn't be killed even when AFK and we might as well just remove PvP from the game altogether because the game genie code is already on -- if you're a career neckbeard who plays hardcore enough.

My only point here is that it shouldn't give you that much of an advantage. Obtaining a 99% resist rate (even with tash or malo on) should not be possible.

I'm not saying you reinvent the wheel here. I'm saying you make it 89% instead of 99% (not exact numbers but you get the point).


And instead of 3 full ice comets and 5 full resists + one 15 minute ensnare and twenty full resists, you normalize that to an extent to with partial resists.

The end result is effectively the same. It is just more consistent and less random.

[Sprinkle]

random is classic eq , consistent is some world of warcraft pussy server filled with george cloonies

shut up about this and stop bumping this thread

[SearyxTZ]

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl1/30/303953/41_2008/george.jpg

[Lasher]

Everyone loves Matt Damon

[Sprinkle]

Everyone loves Matt Damon

matt damon

[Sprinkle]

and nice changing your avatar to justin beiber , although i could never understand why so many dislike him , he just looks like a normal homosexual boy to me

go figure

[Pudge]

searyx, why the FUCK is justin bieber your icon?

[Pudge]

lol sprinkle i didnt even se eyour post before i asked him that

[Pudge]

MY icon, on the other hand, is cimply a picture of a badass taking a nap in on of VP's comfy beds

[mimixownzall]

Also to break down further why having partial resists is so important: do you want to be playing a game that is entirely luck/chance-based (sans melee versus melee fights), or skill-based?


Because luck and chance are all you're getting when you throw away partials and just have an all-or-nothing resist system.

That means a Wizard can either land two 1100 damage ice comets in a row (and one shot someone), or get five full resists in a row (not even scratching them). This is why partial resists are so important. This is also why having an obtainable unbuffed 95+% resist rate is absurd.

I don't think the old classic system has to be tweaked that much to work well and strike a better balance.

Did you even PVP on live? At all? All or nothing resist system? That is stupid. If you did play on live you would know that the resist system for the MR spells was different than the other resists. 100-130 MR (not sure the exact number) made you almost immune to CC spells. This was not the case for the spells involving the other resists. 100-130 FR didn't make you almost immune (95+% full resist) to fire nukes/dots.

To say that Live was an all-or-nothing system all the way across the board is laughable.

[Silikten]

BTW I don't think anyone gives a fuck about a partial nuke system, TBH I remember nukes landing large even classic, one of our biggest hitters was Graef.

And Octavion, Celestine, and that one Indig member haha :O. Plus, who was that person that rolled around with Telen. The ranger I think!

[Silikten]

That's the whole fucking point. Stuns affect pure melee, hybrids, and casters equally. There's no reason to have 4 second long, chain castable root spam in the game when stun can accomplish the same task, is harder to abuse due to reuse timers, and doesn't screw over certain classes while barely affecting others.

I do agree and thats a great point. However, the ability to escape root/snares is obviously based upon class. A snared warrior isn't going to die from a caster because he can pumice it off. If the caster tries to melee, the war hits him. Seems fair to me. Plus any viable nuke is over 4 seconds, pumice is 3. If caster is max range, run backwards, if he's close, interrupt, if war/monk/rog, at least you get in a nice round or two making the damage traded.

Certain classes get the abilities they get due to balance. Casters being cloth/low hitpoints allow shadowstep/gate. The only real class screwed upon snare is a druid or enchanter, but even then a well played one can escape.

You really can't escape a stun. It does make the classes even, but it defeats the purpose of them having the abilities they have.

[MakeYouMad]

A snared warrior isn't going to die from a caster because he can pumice it off.

Does it sound like fun playing a melee and having to run to the zone line every time two hostiles appear in the zone you're in because one can chain cast snare the entire fight while the other nukes or melees you to death for a free kill?

This game mechanic discourages PvP from even happening in the first place. On EQ live, people will stick around for 1vs2's, no melee or hybrid will with lopsided Null mechanics where you can kite people to death.

The fight will look like this Rexx video if you stick around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1hmS4H5Rk

Sure takes mad skills to kill somebody that can't move the entire fight.


and the fact that the curve allowed you to hit over 95% resistance to anything

You didn't become immune to damage spells. I even posted a parse of a wizard nuking himself under the classic through velious resist system:


"I'm also on TZ -- i did some experimenting - yah i was bored
nuking myself with draught of ice (i have 167 cold resist unbuffed) the average hit was for 347 , so yah it can land consistent dmg, just not a whole lot".

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51839

[Lovely]

Makeyoumad you're links are so dumb. Any melee or caster standing all alone in an open area like that deserve to die. They are idiots for being there in the first place. Second.

I'm gonna roll a monk and I feel that melee's are way to overpowered here. All the important camps and the best exp spots are inside dungeons and as a fully buffed monk inside a dungeon I'll be able to kill a full hp int caster in a few seconds. How will classes like Wizards even be useful? They suck in xp groups, they suck inside dungeons and that's the most important parts of the game. I'm not sure how to fix this myself but melee's will be way overpowered. The first two raid dragons are even inside dungeons. Casters are screwed hard.

We really have to think about how to fix this? How fun will it be when every important camp in the game is overrun by melee groups?

[MakeYouMad]

Any melee or caster standing all alone in an open area like that deserve to die. They are idiots for being there in the first place. Second.

There has to be some incentive for the solo person to stay and fight the two people. If not, then you're creating a system that deters PvP from occurring and makes people just run away from every fight. That's what I did on VZTZ when caster duos ran at me. No point in fighting if they have a 90% chance of kiting me to death. Then everyone logs off bored, having done nothing.



All the important camps and the best exp spots are inside dungeons and as a fully buffed monk inside a dungeon I'll be able to kill a full hp int caster in a few seconds. How will classes like Wizards even be useful?

Durrrr, wizards can also join groups and get buffs + heals just like you.

[Lovely]

Yeah but a Wizard can't even kill a fully buffed monk with a full mana pool if the monk AFK. So if both are getting heals then it's over even faster for the Wizard, not only will the monk even be close to dying but the Wizard will be oom and the monk will continue ripping 5-20% hp per second.

[Lovely]

When you're a caster on a PVP server I can promise you that 90% if not 95% of your kills will be other WIS/INT users if you solo/duo pvp. You will mostly be hunting outdoors at good exp spots, PP farm areas or low level dungeons. All places where casters hangout and not melee's. WIS/INT users are also easier to kill due to their low hp and the chance of more people adding will be lower cause they die fast. While a decent geared melee takes years to kill even if your CC land. You might even be OOM before he reaches 0 hp and have to run off yourself or even die.

Personally I see melee's as beasts and powerhouses. Just like every level 50 melee is on the beta currently. All those 50 warriors and 50 SK's are WAY WAY WAY more annoying then any WIS/INT caster to kill.

[Bockscar]

Yeah because melees can teleport from dungeon to dungeon, between quest drops, gate to bank, cross continents with magic words...

The only time a melee isn't outdoors is when he's currently grinding in a dungeon with a group.

[Macken]

MY icon, on the other hand, is cimply a picture of a badass taking a nap in on of VP's comfy beds

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8894/eq000180.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/eq000180.png/)

Slumber party?

[Silikten]

Does it sound like fun playing a melee and having to run to the zone line every time two hostiles appear in the zone you're in because one can chain cast snare the entire fight while the other nukes or melees you to death for a free kill?

This right here completely negates the rest of what you say. Two hostiles? In theory, 2 will beat 1. It will not matter which classes are involved. If you are afraid of death then stick to zonelines. I don't know what else to say except you sound like you do not know the game very well.

Enc/Wiz can mez/nuke people to death. Classic combo. No snared/root needed.

[MakeYouMad]

This right here completely negates the rest of what you say. Two hostiles? In theory, 2 will beat 1

No, 2 terrible people don't beat 1 good player in legit EQ, only on VZTZ is this possible due to things like CC spam landing.

[Null]

No, 2 terrible people don't beat 1 good player in legit EQ, only on VZTZ is this possible due to things like CC spam landing.

Did you play classic? Honest question that has very little bearing on the resist system or the server in general.

[MakeYouMad]

Did you play classic? Honest question that has very little bearing on the resist system or the server in general.

Yep, my EQ subscription history has December 1999 as first billing date, dunno if that's accurate and I had billings before then or not.

[Null]

Yep, my EQ subscription history has December 1999 as first billing date, dunno if that's accurate and I had billings before then or not.

And this is Wehrmacht / Tmoneywhatever correct?

[Rust1d?]

^ Yes

[Amuk]

I don't even care anymore I'm over it, but yes I could take on two people by being a superior jouster if snares wern't landing. Two casters is always harder due to the kite factor of while you chase one the others fucking you up, but two melee, or caster/melee, or hybrid/melee combinations are def doable. I probably will roll rogue and avoid any type of solo pvp, therefore it's aight.

[gloinz]

I don't even care anymore I'm over it, but yes I could take on two people by being a superior jouster if snares wern't landing. Two casters is always harder due to the kite factor of while you chase one the others fucking you up, but two melee, or caster/melee, or hybrid/melee combinations are def doable. I probably will roll rogue and avoid any type of solo pvp, therefore it's aight.

ya this is why im saddened too. i like fighting groups of ppl and living/ mayb separating and killing one, but the way resists are gonna be for CC you won't ever b able to escape a group anymore, so now instead of engaging at all you will b forced to hug the zoneline to survive
or of course combating the zerg with a group of zealots, but personally i liked playing a firebat

[MakeYouMad]

ya this is why im saddened too. i like fighting groups of ppl and living/ mayb separating and killing one, but the way resists are gonna be for CC you won't ever b able to escape a group anymore

Yea, this is the dumbest part about it. The Null crowd control system discourages PvP on a PvP server.

On EQ live, I'll fight against larger numbers while solo. With the Null system, I just run away from all the lopsided fights his system creates then everyone logs off bored after not having fought anyone.

[Jigga]

Best thing about Nulls system is it will make wehrmacht not play which makes me laugh. Keep holding your breath till you pass out child

[MakeYouMad]

Best thing about Nulls system is it will make wehrmacht not play which makes me laugh. Keep holding your breath till you pass out child

lol @ that

Of course it will make people not play. Is that good for the server? No.

Several SZ players quit VZTZ due to those game mechanics, even people like Mippo quit. Everyone hates Mippo, but driving off all the server population isn't exactly a good thing, especially when you can maintain full population with normal EQ mechanics.

[Jigga]

like how wehrmacht and mippo are mentioned in back to back posts

[Rogean]

Where is this 61% bullshit coming from? The thread I closed on the day the patch was put in to FIX the resist problems?

I haven't had time to read this thread, I just read the first post and I'm getting aggrivated because I told you guys to stop cluttering the forum with bullshit opinions of a system that was broken.

I knew I should have taken the server down until it was fixed.

[Goobles]

And then ensues more bitching.