basic outline of proper classic era resistances

[Darwoth]

1> snare/root/stun/blind and any spells with these effects as a secondary were highly resistable, at 100 mr there was a 90% chance to resist these, higher still and you eliminated them completely other than the default 2% or 5% chance to land.

2> mez was less resistable than the above, however at 100 mr you pretty much were not sticking one, this is why enchanters always began the fight with tash, and after landing one they were generally pretty effective. mana sieve was about the same as mez in terms of resistance.

3> all direct damage nukes without secondary effects such as a debuff, stun etc still hit for the majority of their damage even well past 150 resist. lets use starfire for an example, after the pvp damage nerf it does 410 on a full.

lets say i am fighting someone with 150 fr, 5 casts would have looked something like the following: 327, 352, 410, 286, 349

4> don't think you can partially resist a dot, if you can it didnt happen often enough to remember it, things like plague and ebolt resisted frequently because of the all/nothing aspect of the spells but still landed a lot as well, 115 poison resistance and ebolts would still hit me a good 60% of the time.

5> lifetaps, dispels, druid swarm line, damage shields, harm touches among others were simply not resisted in pvp.

6> on a related note ducking disrupts spells, this is important.



make the resistance system adhere to the above and you will be mostly in line with classic, folks will be generally happy and you will have a good starting point to tweak things further.

[Amuk]

Not saying Darwoth is right but this is basically how I remember it as well.

[tmoneynegro]

lets say i am fighting someone with 150 fr, 5 casts would have looked something like the following: 327, 352, 410, 286, 349

Only part I really disagree on, 2-3 of those casts would probably be fully resisted against 150FR. I don't really care what they do with damage spells though.

I think 2 out of 5 spells resisting against 150FR would be a fair compromise in terms of trying to make the server like classic while also letting casters be viable.

[Sarkov]

Pretty much spot on.

[Crenshinabon]

100 mr seems too low for about a 90% resist rate.
You would need like 130 for 90% I would think.
I could still fairly often land roots on people without enchanter or bard mr buffs. And I am thinking they would all have around 100 prettye asy to get mr. It was when I ran into chanters and bards who could boost mr 150+ did I remember having a tough time ever landing any mr stuff on them.

[Darwoth]

i had over 200 fire resistance on RZ during velious, server was covered in druids and i would run into other druids several times a day at the various rings.

scoraie always did 200+ damage to me, full on "you have resisted blahblah spell" never happened to me past the default low chance.

maybe the nukes you remember resisting all the time were ones with secondaries, for example i never used the level 49 ice nuke, not because it wasnt a good spell but because it was usually a full on resist because of the debuff attached to it so it was an all or nothing nuke.

[Darwoth]

matter of fact here is a screenshot from 12 years ago bitching about this EXACTLY, ignore the stupid paint comments i was like 17 at the time.

kaaq was a begotten wizard later banned for hacking like most of the guild, anyhow he was a high priority target for our group at the time and i remember this fight like it was yesterday not only because it was the first time i was able to verify his hackage but because once i got him to the sliver you see in the shot he ate 5 scoraies and a wildfire without giving a resist message or taking a single point of damage after being wand bombed.

point is 12 years ago i apparently had 208 fr and usually took "200 - 250 damage" from a scoraie.

[valithteezee]

I agree

[Shrubwise]

lots of smileys in that shit talkin' =)

[Darwoth]

i was a lot younger/nicer then, and the overall community was that where usually even your chief rivals were just people you wanted to beat instead of stab in the face irl =P

[mimixownzall]

Only part I really disagree on, 2-3 of those casts would probably be fully resisted against 150FR. I don't really care what they do with damage spells though.

I think 2 out of 5 spells resisting against 150FR would be a fair compromise in terms of trying to make the server like classic while also letting casters be viable.

No. Rarely were my nukes resisted fully with people who had 150+. We are talking maybe 1 out of 30 casts. Of course this is velious era, not sure about prior to that.

[Harrison]

Things Darwoth believes.

Pacify doesn't aggro on a resist.
He could cast one spell and walk around any dungeon in classic without aggroing 99% of mobs.
Heat blood is unresistable.
And now..."6> on a related note ducking disrupts spells, this is important."

[Darwoth]

was wondering how long before one of you morons would shit the thread up

and the only thing you said that has any bearing to what i've said is pacify, which was edited shortly after i made the post and long before your gluttonous ass even saw the thread.

never said heat blood was unresistable, didnt play a necromancer so have no idea. splurt and lifetaps were unresistable, dont know one way or the other about the rest.

classic factions nagafen/vox/splitpaw/kedge/mistmoore were all made dubious via benevolence.

and duck interrupted spells


since you did not play you have no idea what the fuck your talking about, which is why in each of those threads the people who were there agree, those who do not are yourself and 2 or 3 other mouthbreathers that do nothing but shit up the conversation with your drivel.

[yaarii]

Dot's were never partial resist in classic, it was all or nothing. Generally the more useful dots were resistable - eg. ebolt line did a lot of damage quickly, but was fairly easily resisted with 70+pr.

If you had all your resists close to 100 around the time of classic/kunark, you were going to resist most of the resistable spells. Fighting someone with decent resists was all about using unresistables on them, especially if you were in resist-gear too and likely short on int/mana.

Around the velious or later eras the resists were changed. This helped a bit because your typical crybaby on RZ in classic was naked with an aviak charm, without the balls to wear their good gear in case they lost it, but later they upgraded to the fancy new no-drop stuff dropping in uber velious era raids.

[Darwoth]

resists were changed sometime post luclin from what i hear, played until a few weeks before that launched when i went to daoc.

[yaarii]

I stopped around late-velious era I think. Resists definitely need to be as close to classic as possible. Theres a crapload of custom servers out there for ppl who think they are 'improving' EQ with their own ideas, and they all have no ppl on them because they suck.

[Wonton]

Ducking interrupted casting in classic. Period.

Keep it classic

[Nyrod]

moar classic pictures pertaining to pvp imo

solid find

[MakeYouMad]

No. Rarely were my nukes resisted fully with people who had 150+. We are talking maybe 1 out of 30 casts. Of course this is velious era, not sure about prior to that.

I think we both know that's not true. The only spells you saw wizards cast in PvP were lures. If resist rate was that low, they would be 1 shotting people with sunstrike and the boards would be filled with hundreds of threads talking about how overpowered wizards are but it just didn't happen.

Hell, I would have made a wizard myself if sunstrike was actually a reliable PvP spell lol.

[Dfn]

I used Sunstrike on my wizard. I even used Draught of Jiva - MR based nuke. I had more issues with root, stun, etc landing so that I rarely used them. I did not solely cast lures on my Wizard - in fact, I rarely used them save for people grouped with bards and a few specific people that I knew stacked certain resists.

[Sorath]

I used Sunstrike on my wizard. I even used Draught of Jiva - MR based nuke. I had more issues with root, stun, etc landing so that I rarely used them. I did not solely cast lures on my Wizard - in fact, I rarely used them save for people grouped with bards and a few specific people that I knew stacked certain resists.


sunstrike ahahaahahahhaha
on my wizard hahahaahahahhh
i even
ahahhahhaah
draught of jiva ahahahahah
mr based nuke ahahahh issuesss
ahaahhahah
root stun etc
ahahahah
landing haahahahhh
i saved them hahaa groups hahaahahah
stacked certain resist ahahhah

[Palemoon]

1> snare/root/stun/blind and any spells with these effects as a secondary were highly resistable, at 100 mr there was a 90% chance to resist these, higher still and you eliminated them completely other than the default 2% or 5% chance to land.

I basically agree with this.

2> mez was less resistable than the above, however at 100 mr you pretty much were not sticking one, this is why enchanters always began the fight with tash, and after landing one they were generally pretty effective. mana sieve was about the same as mez in terms of resistance.

I basically agree with this

3> all direct damage nukes without secondary effects such as a debuff, stun etc still hit for the majority of their damage even well past 150 resist. lets use starfire for an example, after the pvp damage nerf it does 410 on a full.
lets say i am fighting someone with 150 fr, 5 casts would have looked something like the following: 327, 352, 410, 286, 349

Do not agree, you are being too generious with those nuke numbers.

4> don't think you can partially resist a dot, if you can it didnt happen often enough to remember it, things like plague and ebolt resisted frequently because of the all/nothing aspect of the spells but still landed a lot as well, 115 poison resistance and ebolts would still hit me a good 60% of the time.

Basically

5> lifetaps, dispels, druid swarm line, damage shields, harm touches among others were simply not resisted in pvp.

lifetaps/swarms/HTs very hard to resist, but not impossilbe. Damage Shields and Dispels are in a whole other category.

[Darwoth]

the nuke numbers are dead on, from what i have deduced off of memory and the fact that at 200+ fr i would still take 50% of the damage from a scoraie is that

100 elemental resist shaved off about 15% - 20% damage on average

150 took off 25 - 30%

and 200 took off approximately 50%


this is why ice cometing wizards were still feared even after you had cold resistance, mages were not just blank firing pet controllers and druids could actually kill people.


the reason the above ratios make sense and seem fair is due to the fact that this is how the everquest dev team had them and is what everybody from classic eq pvp played with.

[Arillious]

1> snare/root/stun/blind and any spells with these effects as a secondary were highly resistable, at 100 mr there was a 90% chance to resist these, higher still and you eliminated them completely other than the default 2% or 5% chance to land.

2> mez was less resistable than the above, however at 100 mr you pretty much were not sticking one, this is why enchanters always began the fight with tash, and after landing one they were generally pretty effective. mana sieve was about the same as mez in terms of resistance.

3> all direct damage nukes without secondary effects such as a debuff, stun etc still hit for the majority of their damage even well past 150 resist. lets use starfire for an example, after the pvp damage nerf it does 410 on a full.

lets say i am fighting someone with 150 fr, 5 casts would have looked something like the following: 327, 352, 410, 286, 349

4> don't think you can partially resist a dot, if you can it didnt happen often enough to remember it, things like plague and ebolt resisted frequently because of the all/nothing aspect of the spells but still landed a lot as well, 115 poison resistance and ebolts would still hit me a good 60% of the time.

5> lifetaps, dispels, druid swarm line, damage shields, harm touches among others were simply not resisted in pvp.

6> on a related note ducking disrupts spells, this is important.



make the resistance system adhere to the above and you will be mostly in line with classic, folks will be generally happy and you will have a good starting point to tweak things further.

This all seems about right to me.

[XiakenjaTZ]

I plan on playing a wizard and even i think you nuke numbers are a bit generous.

Or the numbers are right but there should be one resist in that set.

[Darwoth]

full resists did not happen for single effect nukes much if at all beyond the default chance even at capped resistances, at least not for any of the cold/fire based nukes, magic may be a different story as all i have to base that off of is my AE and i never really used that in pvp however i dont see why it would be, and in pve while quad kiting you might of had one of four targets do a full resist during a pulll, at something around 5% default chance thats about right.


as an aside the numbers i quoted were meant to be a representation that i quickly typed out, at 150 resistance with partials doing on average 25% less damage than full on a 410 damage nuke most of the mid 300s would be low 300s, with an occasional flyer either way.

i would go back and edit the numbers to be 30ish damage lower, but then i would have a bunch of retarded assholes accusing me of changing shit.

[lethdar]

Darwoth's numbers are pretty much correct, here's some most data regarding resists from player posts from before the resist changing patch (which made anything you can test on alkabor inapplicable here btw).

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showpost.php?p=93848&postcount=55

Although, Ghitming, I think you were implying that any class can kill any class? Unless there is something really uber for me to charm (and it doesn't kill me first) there's not a chance in hell my chanter could kill any melee besides a monk. I am pretty sure a cleric can't kill anyone 50+ either *maybe* a caster if their melee skills are good. For some reason if anyone has over 70 magic resist, magic based spells are completly useless against them but fire/ cold/ disease/ poison ones seems to have a good chance of doing max damage even at 150+ resist.

post from someone after the resist changing patch went in (sept, 20002)
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showpost.php?p=96211&postcount=18

in the past ever had 150resists and still get hit by scoriae icecomet and the rest, while u could sit at roughly 75-80mr and be immune to just about every friggin magic attack?

its been that way so long it blows peoples minds when they stick, fact is magic attacks like root snare stun mez slow blind and stuff will screw a person over (because they have a duration) while everyone is used to getting straight nuked

magic attacks are the most debilitating and i'd say the most powerful pvp spells short of pure dmg (see lures and and unresistable stuff and dont forget powerful uber melee skillz )
phantasmist
rallos zek

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showpost.php?p=96224&postcount=31
PvP should work with everyone moving as fast as they can. My job, as a druid, is to shake the melee long enough to channel my spell. His job is to stay on me, wailing away.
NEITHER of us should be able to be snared. The snared, the rooted, they are dead. This just isnt right, snare should never, ever land on 100+ mr.

[lethdar]

Another one before the resist patch change in 2002:
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showpost.php?p=95125&postcount=64

My mr is 140. I don't have mr song memmed 90% of the time, because my FR is 160+ and non lure spells don't tend to hit me for much. Rapture, however, IS a lure based mez, and I only resist that when I have a crimson potion up.

[Envious]

Crimson pot not classic. Not even remotely fucking close.

[jilena]

There are too many comments on ducking. This was not in at release. Ducking DID (and does on red99) interrupt a spell if you were ducking when the spell finished casting. But the instant interrupt was added later.

Obligatory patch post:

------------------------------
June 27, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Gameplay Changes **

...

- Spell and Item Interruption: Ducking will now interrupt a spell
instantly. You will no longer be able to sit while using items or
casting spells. This will not affect bard songs, which will still work
as they always have, but will affect all items, even those with song-
like effects.

[Lovely]

WTB ducking as instant interrupt. It makes PVP so much more skillful. Right now you can't even adjust to new situations without waiting for your long ass cast.

[Silikten]

deal with it

[Billbike]

WTB ducking as instant interrupt. It makes PVP so much more skillful. Right now you can't even adjust to new situations without waiting for your long ass cast.

No way the "classic" puritan-nazis will let that in. It's not "classic", and you shall be burned at the stake for heresy! That's almost as blasphemous as the "the world is round" arguement.

[Harrison]

I'm curious how many times we can prove Tardwoth wrong before he finally gets it that he is absolutely clueless and shouldn't be posting in the bugs section, or generally at all.

[Sarkov]

Can we just get the devs to broadly acknowledge that the system posted in this thread is "the goal"?

My interest in this server will rapidly wane if the goal is anything custom, anything other than (broadly) the system in this thread.

[Billbike]

The devs will start with a "classic" resist system, then as people give feedback and QQ, it will evolve in to a "custom" system. It will still be based on "classic" though.

Rogean showed everyone where the door was.

[Sarkov]

Except, they arent... Null appears to be porting ideas from VZTZ, and if thats so, just let me know so I can stop following the server. No interest in anything other than a classic pvp server.

[SoulLeech]

Except, they arent... Null appears to be porting ideas from VZTZ, and if thats so, just let me know so I can stop following the server. No interest in anything other than a classic pvp server.

Seconded.

[mimixownzall]

I think we both know that's not true. The only spells you saw wizards cast in PvP were lures. If resist rate was that low, they would be 1 shotting people with sunstrike and the boards would be filled with hundreds of threads talking about how overpowered wizards are but it just didn't happen.

Hell, I would have made a wizard myself if sunstrike was actually a reliable PvP spell lol.

Notice how I said FULLY resisted. Did you have some pretty big partials? Yes. But rarely did I ever see a fully resisted spell.

Reading comprehension FTW.

[mimixownzall]

I'm curious how many times we can prove Tardwoth wrong before he finally gets it that he is absolutely clueless and shouldn't be posting in the bugs section, or generally at all.

Actually, most of Darwoth's posts are spot on or pretty close.

BTW, this isn't RnF so please leave the flaming, useless posts out.

[MakeYouMad]

I plan on playing a wizard and even i think you nuke numbers are a bit generous.

Or the numbers are right but there should be one resist in that set.

Yes, nuking someone with 150FR five times and not seeing 1 full resist would be pretty rare. I think most people agree that nuking someone with 120-150FR will get you at least 20-25% full resists.


Another one before the resist patch change in 2002:
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showpost.php?p=95125&postcount=64

"because my FR is 160+ and non lure spells don't tend to hit me for much. Rapture, however, IS a lure based mez, and I only resist that when I have a crimson potion up."

The guy above is basically saying non-lure spells don't hit him at all with 160 resists.

This link from the year 2000 claims a 50% resist rate on ice comet with 120 cold resist: http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showpost.php?p=17688&postcount=5

Full resist rate was obviously much higher than 1 in 30 casts as mimix claims. Was at least 20-25% full resists with 120CR from my recollection.

When I PvP'd against druids on my monk, they didn't even bother casting nukes on me, just spammed dots over and over. I remember Darwoth nuked me for like 60-70% of possible damage one day and I looked at my screen surprised that it actually landed. Darwoth was the only druid that even attempted to use mana nuking me. That guy Amreet only cast dots every time. Same with Dharma on SZ (the #1 druid for a while?).

When I got nuked with 120ish resists, about 1/4th were full resist, 1/4th 30% damage, 1/4th 50% damage, and 1/4th 75% damage.

[Amuk]

For some reason I remember sunstrike being somewhat rare on TZ - I remember Lightadam would cast it on me, and it was hitting decently - but most wizards were using lures a lot also. Never played one cannot be more clear then that - but I remember nukes hitting decently hard with higher fr/cr in Kunark.

Bump also for Devs to implement this resist system - Darwoths resist system ftw.

[mourning]

You are taking forum posts from the year 2000 with people half roleplaying, probably 45 year old housewives, as serious math. Please walk outside your basement.

[Hobosamurai]

Some of these rants about VZ and TZ resist system are creditable but no one mentions up to kunark there was item loot. People running around in no drop gear.

I dont care to state how hardcore or less the server is its just a game and all that matters to me is the fun aspect but under item loot the loss of high end resist gear does play a roll in how much is on your toon. Having to deal with unhitable healers from cross teaming sucked as well and this VZ and TZ bashing to me is pretty transparent. Bagging your best resist gear isnt always a option and btw once item loot happen I left EQ until Sullon.

If you wanna brag about your badassness in EQ pvp you can have the trophy but again all facts arent being present about VZ and TZ. Item loot would change the dynamic on how the resist system functioned.

P.S. EQ was never made for pvp and it isnt balanced for it and never will be.

[mimixownzall]

This link from the year 2000 claims a 50% resist rate on ice comet with 120 cold resist: http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showpost.php?p=17688&postcount=5

Yeah, he sounds real credible... "lets say... lets say... might... could..."

Reads to me like he is pulling stuff out of his ass.

[MakeYouMad]

Yeah, he sounds real credible... "lets say... lets say... might... could..."

Reads to me like he is pulling stuff out of his ass.

I found an actual wizard damage parse that occurred before the resist changes in Luclin. Posted in this thread:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51839

[Arillious]

I'm curious how many times we can prove Tardwoth wrong before he finally gets it that he is absolutely clueless and shouldn't be posting in the bugs section, or generally at all.

Quit gargling Darwoth's balls. If we get anywhere close to the general resist system that he posted, it would be a good thing.