Help me with stats for my Rogue. Been to long

[Havick_T]

Hey guys,

My Rogue Havick an I were having a discussion. We concluded I can't remember shit about stats lol. Yes, if your wondering why I was talking to my char in game it would be because I'm stuck :P Any way, stat weights.. I'm currently a pierce Rogue. I haven't played in like 6 yrs so help remind me of what stats to concentrate on. If slash is better then pierce, is crush better then both?

If I remember right. It goes like this..

Dex > Str > Qui > Sta rest

Pierce > Slash > Crush

Thanks for the help looking forward to hearing back from everyone on this today.

Take care,

Havick

[Ferok]

Hey guys,

My Rogue Havick an I were having a discussion. We concluded I can't remember shit about stats lol. Yes, if your wondering why I was talking to my char in game it would be because I'm stuck :P Any way, stat weights.. I'm currently a pierce Rogue. I haven't played in like 6 yrs so help remind me of what stats to concentrate on. If slash is better then pierce, is crush better then both?

If I remember right. It goes like this..

Dex > Str > Qui > Sta rest

Pierce > Slash > Crush

Thanks for the help looking forward to hearing back from everyone on this today.

Take care,

Havick

I assume you mean AGI rather than QUI. Reality is with those stats, they're all important for a rogue. Hard to choose one over the other, aim for balance among them. Sta and Agi are for defense (Hitpoints and chance to "avoid", respectively) where DEX and STR are for offense. Rogues may have some additional intricacy here, but that's the basics.

Calling yourself a "pierce" rogue is sort of unnecessary. All rogues equip piercing weapons in their main hand, as piercing is required for Backstab (which is a very large portion of your dps.) Whether your offhand is pierce, slash, or blunt I don't think matters. I think at some point rogues got higher piercing skill than the other two, but I don't think that was until Luclin (and you really don't need to worry about it now.)

[Icecometus]

Str > all

[Havick_T]

I assume you mean AGI rather than QUI. Reality is with those stats, they're all important for a rogue. Hard to choose one over the other, aim for balance among them. Sta and Agi are for defense (Hitpoints and chance to "avoid, respectively" where DEX and STR are for offense. Rogues may have some additional intricacy here, but that's the basics.

Calling yourself a "pierce" rogue is sort of unnecessary. All rogues equip piercing weapons in their main hand, as piercing is required for Backstab (which is a very large portion of your dps.) Whether your offhand is pierce, slash, or blunt I don't think matters. I think at some point rogues got higher piercing skill than the other two, but I don't think that was until Luclin (and you really don't need to worry about it now.)

Excellent info thank you sir. I'll worry about that order :P I couldn't remember if i needed a dagger in the main hand for BS or not. Good reminder :D

[Deric]

Hasbinbad made a really good post about benefits of STA actually.. With gear and buffs, maxing STR isn't nearly as hard as getting your HP up from STA. While a new rogue will see benefits from that early bump in STR, the long-term effects are less rewarding than maxing out STA at creation.

[Deric]

But if I read properly I would've seen that I didn't answer the question. Sorry! :X

[ecna1ab]

Stamina all the way, the hardest stat to boost in anything pre-luclin is stamina. At least from what I remember. I used to make every character with max stamina. I could be wrong though.. its been years and years.

[mitic]

a rogue that knows his class doesnt need defensive skills. besides that dex > str

[Vanech]

No offense Havick, but your original conception of EQ rogues falls more in line with WoW rogues, which are the only rogues in any RPG let alone MMO (that I have played at least) where having 1hb as a primary skill seems to be important :\

[Humerox]

As a couple have mentioned already, STA.

Or split STA/STR.

[Karorn]

Dex isn't really that useful. All it does it make your combat skills raise faster and your procs go off a little more often. I would max sta at creation and then buy as much +Str gear as possible

[mitic]

Dex isn't really that useful. All it does it make your combat skills raise faster and your procs go off a little more often. I would max sta at creation and then buy as much +Str gear as possible

dex reduces miss rates too and thats the whole point of dex for rogues

[Karorn]

Unless emu works different from live dex has no effect on hit rate. Hit rate is based on your level compared to your target, your weapon skill, and the AC of your target, nothing more. Agility doesn't do much either. It just adds like 1 ac per 3 agility or somesuch as well as raising defensive skills quicker. Depending on your class, Str, Stamina, Charisma, Int, and Wisdom are the only stats to ever care at all about.

However, I do believe there is some penalty if your dex or agility is below a certain amount (75?) so I guess it matters in that case. Or if you're going crazy with dual Yaks a high dex could be nice, but it would be a secondary stat.

Another interesting fact: AC sometimes completely absorbs a blow, but it just shows up as a miss.

If I'm wrong I'd love to see a dev correct me, but this is what I remember from lurking on the official EQ forums back in the old days.

[mitic]

looks like you are right about missrate not affected by dex.

i still would go str and dex only as a rogue. to get aggro as a rogue means he is doing something wrong. sta is for tanks and pull classes, imo.

[Icecometus]

a rogue that knows his class doesnt need defensive skills. besides that dex > str

State your reason for this. Attack is your most important stat and is based on your STR. Procs are a bad idea IMO as a rogue so what is your high dex doing for your DPS?

Edit: ok I see that this was addressed in the thread. HPs become important when you are fighting a boss mob that AoEs, you can't DPS when your dead ;P

[JayFiveAlive]

Max STA and rest in STR.

DEX and AGI are a waste for a rogue! DEX supposedly helps procs, but you don't want procs as a rogue - that aggros like a mofo and even some good tanks will have problems if you proc a lot. Dead isn't worth it.

[Havick_T]

good stuff

[Tallenn]

IIRC, dex only affects hit rate for archery. For most melee, the only other thing it does is affect the rate at which proccing weapons go off. I"m not a rogue expert, but it seems to me that proccing weapons on a rogue isn't really that great an idea.

[Hasbinbad]

Anyone who doesn't say full Stamina then what's left in Strength in creation points for rogue is a fucking idiot.

The formula for rogue stats is like this:

Get STR to 188, then HP > AC > all

STR to 188 is easy to do with gear, even if you have low starting STR. Most rogue gear has STR on it, and 188 is not a high number. The reason you should get STR to 188 is because a level 50 shaman buff is +67 STR, 188 + 67 = 255.

After you get that, staying alive is your biggest goal. This is accomplished mainly through having more hps, and secondarily by increasing AC. Stamina supports HPs and AGI supports AC. STA is by FAR more efficient at increasing HPs than AGI is at increasing AC, so I do not bother with AGI at all, unless my choice is a STA + AGI item over JUST a similar amount of STA.

DEX is totally useless for a rogue, unless you're a proc rogue, and proc rogues are dumb. The whole point of being a rogue is maximizing your damage while minimizing your aggro, and procs (even if they suck) generate FAR more aggro than melee hits. Also, a high damage weapon in the main hand will outdamage a lower damage weapon with a proc over time hands down. A DEX build is "OK" if you do not have any other option, but honestly, you will do more dps over time and die a lot less if you focus on straight up melee damage.

Someone mentioned my creation point discussion post, here it is:
http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=14711#post14711

[Havick_T]

Anyone who doesn't say full Stamina then what's left in Strength in creation points for rogue is a fucking idiot.

The formula for rogue stats is like this:

Get STR to 188, then HP > AC > all

STR to 188 is easy to do with gear, even if you have low starting STR. Most rogue gear has STR on it, and 188 is not a high number. The reason you should get STR to 188 is because a level 50 shaman buff is +67 STR, 188 + 67 = 255.

After you get that, staying alive is your biggest goal. This is accomplished mainly through having more hps, and secondarily by increasing AC. Stamina supports HPs and AGI supports AC. STA is by FAR more efficient at increasing HPs than AGI is at increasing AC, so I do not bother with AGI at all, unless my choice is a STA + AGI item over JUST a similar amount of STA.

DEX is totally useless for a rogue, unless you're a proc rogue, and proc rogues are dumb. The whole point of being a rogue is maximizing your damage while minimizing your aggro, and procs (even if they suck) generate FAR more aggro than melee hits. Also, a high damage weapon in the main hand will outdamage a lower damage weapon with a proc over time hands down. A DEX build is "OK" if you do not have any other option, but honestly, you will do more dps over time and die a lot less if you focus on straight up melee damage.

Someone mentioned my creation point discussion post, here it is:
http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=14711#post14711

:D:D

Really great info man thank you!

[Karorn]

Anyone who doesn't say full Stamina then what's left in Strength in creation points for rogue is a fucking idiot.



This

[mitic]

State your reason for this. Attack is your most important stat and is based on your STR. Procs are a bad idea IMO as a rogue so what is your high dex doing for your DPS?

Edit: ok I see that this was addressed in the thread. HPs become important when you are fighting a boss mob that AoEs, you can't DPS when your dead ;P

resist gear? those 10 extra sta wont help you at all vs boss aoes

[Hasbinbad]

resist gear? those 10 extra sta wont help you at all vs boss aoes
While I agree with the sentiment of your post, that resist gear is far more valuable when called for, I cannot tell you how many times I've survived with 2% hps on boss fights while rogues with less hps have died.

You're both right, resist gear > stamina in certain situations, but the maxim "You can't DPS if you're dead." still holds water, and is even reinforced by the idea that resist gear >.

[Hasbinbad]

As far as weapon choices, as a rogue your mainhand always needs to be a pierce unless you don't want to backstab (or you're a crackhead that wants to "switch out" a high ratio weapon for a high damage piercer and back every 6 seconds). As far as the offhand, ratio is king. Nothing else matters as far as weapon choice, rogues can use 1hb, 1hs, or 1hp in offhand with equal effectiveness (relative to skill, i.e. if your 1hb is 32 and your 1hs is 132, your 1hs will be more effective UNTIL you raise your 1hb similarly).

I've actually started to do some research as far as aggro generation, and while I don't know 100% how it works here, I have a hypothesis that needs testing here. I've found several places where this idea was discussed on live, but I don't fully understand it yet.

Question: How does mob aggro generate from rogue damage?
Observation: Slower weapons seem to generate less aggro than faster weapons, even if the ratio and/or dps output is similar.
Hypothesis: Mob aggro is based on potential damage per hit rather than actual damage.

If true, this would mean that - given a static ratio, and the lack of 100% damage on every hit - a slower weapon will always generate less aggro than a faster weapon. Ergo, warriors should use low delay weapons of similar ratio to the best available weapon, sacrificing the high damage high delay weapons. Conversely, a rogue would do better to hit slower but harder with those high damage high delay weapons.

Also, I think that total damage dealt DOES increase aggro, but number of hits is a larger determinant.

[Ferok]

That's the basic understanding I've already had.

There's some static amount of aggro generated every time a melee hit lands, and a variable amount based on how much damage is done. What the balance is here is anyone's guess I think, but there was almost certainly some amount of "base" aggro for a hit.

This is part of why defensive is preferred over evasive, as evasive causes you to miss more often (and thus generate less aggro). Couple that with the fact that it doesn't force mitigation of "spike" damage, it was by far the inferior.

[Karorn]

As far as the offhand, ratio is king.

This is the only thing I've seen you say that I think may be inaccurate. Once again, things may work different here, but on live that wasn't true. The reason for this is that your offhand's swings aren't determined by the speed of the weapon in that hand. The way DW works in EQ is that every time your main hand swings the game makes a check on your DW skill. If it passes then your offhand swings. This is why Monks with a moss covered twig and a high damage/high delay offhand was one of the most retardedly OP things in the game. This is also why that weapon was only in the game for an extremely short time compared to things like the Mana Stone.

[Ferok]

This is the only thing I've seen you say that I think may be inaccurate. Once again, things may work different here, but on live that wasn't true. The reason for this is that your offhand's swings aren't determined by the speed of the weapon in that hand. The way DW works in EQ is that every time your main hand swings the game makes a check on your DW skill. If it passes then your offhand swings. This is why Monks with a moss covered twig and a high damage/high delay offhand was one of the most retardedly OP things in the game. This is also why that weapon was only in the game for an extremely short time compared to things like the Mana Stone.

This was my understanding as well. It's why Wurmslayer was such a popular offhand as well.

I believe they changed that at some point though, perhaps post velious. Otherwise people would have never put Wurmslayers away.

[Karorn]

That's the basic understanding I've already had.

There's some static amount of aggro generated every time a melee hit lands, and a variable amount based on how much damage is done.

As near as I can tell a miss generates agro as well. Maybe as much agro as a hit. Same with spell resists, although in that case it seems to sometimes cause MORE hate than if the spell landed.

[Ferok]

As near as I can tell a miss generates agro as well. Maybe as much agro as a hit. Same with spell resists, although in that case it seems to sometimes cause MORE hate than if the spell landed.

Some spell resists do generate at least as much aggro as a land. Maybe more. Stuns especially. I loved getting stun resists.

Never heard that about misses, but I'd be interested to know for sure. My bet is that a miss counts for 1 point of aggro (just enough to put you on the hate list) where a hit counts for something significantly more. Pretty difficult to test though.

[Hasbinbad]

The reason for this is that your offhand's swings aren't determined by the speed of the weapon in that hand. The way DW works in EQ is that every time your main hand swings the game makes a check on your DW skill.
This isn't true here, and it wasn't true on live.

To prove it to yourself, put a fire beetle eye or some other non-weapon in your mainhand and a weapon in your offhand and hit attack.

You still hit with your offhand, so what you are saying cannot be true.

Sorry Charlie, and TY to Reiker for that test.

[JayFiveAlive]

Maybe a dev could post exactly what's true with DW... I've always wondered :)

[Karorn]

In that case it's working off the delay of your fists due to a weapon not being in your hand.

[Karorn]

Here's how you test it if you really want to see for yourself if that works that way (I'll stand by it working that way on live unless someone can supply a source to prove me wrong). Get a high level monk with his DW maxed out. Put a weapon that's faster than his fists in the offhand. Click attack and watch as you do both crushing and punching damage at the same time everytime, with the punches showing up first in the text box.

[Hasbinbad]

In that case it's working off the delay of your fists due to a weapon not being in your hand.
No, it doesn't. You're NOT HITTING with your fist. I've personally done several things to prove this to myself. Reiker's test is the best evidence, but I've seen plenty first hand. If you want to believe something different, that's cool, but I defy you to post some kind of evidence stronger than that test for your premise. I'm open minded, but I doubt very seriously your ability to put your money where your mouth is in this case.

[Hasbinbad]

Here's how you test it if you really want to see for yourself if that works that way (I'll stand by it working that way on live unless someone can supply a source to prove me wrong). Get a high level monk with his DW maxed out. Put a weapon that's faster than his fists in the offhand. Click attack and watch as you do both crushing and punching damage at the same time everytime, with the punches showing up first in the text box.
Show evidence please. I've observed the exact opposite of what you are saying using 2 types of weapons (you pierce, you crush). I don't believe you! :)

[Karorn]

I haven't tested it, I was giving you a legit test to try. The firebeetle eye thing is stupid. Just because the main hand isn't swinging doesn't mean the delay of the fist isn't being used for the skill check in the background. I certainly could be wrong, but I really don't think all the people on live doing the high damage/delay for the offhand were all insane. If so, then Druzzil Ro was full of crazy monks and warriors.

If that's not how it works here then emu is incorrect *shrug* I would love to see some screenshots proving how things work on p99 one way or the other with the test I gave.

edit: I suppose you wouldn't even need a monk for this, any class with DW would do even better since their naked mainhand would be slower.

[Karorn]

I found an old thread on the subject, apparently I was wrong on this, but it was a common misconception. I never played a melee on live so I guess this is what I get for taking other people's word on it 10 years ago :P I also learned that there's no damage bonus on the offhand, which I didn't know.

I still stand by the firebeetle eye test being stupid though :P

[Hasbinbad]

..blah blah blah.. ..apparently I was wrong.. ..blah blah, I'm a dipshit, blah blah..
.

[Hasbinbad]

dex reduces miss rates too and thats the whole point of dex for rogues
I remember seeing that in the Kunark manual, but I have never been shown any actual evidence of this, and it never seemed to be true to me. Do you have any? Have you parsed logs with low and high dex and calc'd missrates? I would be VERY interested to know if this is factual or not. I am *not* saying you're wrong, I'm just asking.

[Karorn]

blah blah blah I insult people to feel better about myself blah blah blah


Look I'm cool and creative too! Do people like me yet? Maybe I should be more insulting!

[Hasbinbad]

Actually, I feel great about myself whether or not I insult people. I insult people that are idiots because it's fun. Sorry if that hurts your wittwe feewings Karorn, but when you come talking mad shit when you have no idea what you're talking about, what the fuck do you expect?

Do you want me to talk reeeal slowly and be reeeal sensitive to your emotions so you don't get upset and throw a tanrum like your mommy does for you?

Too fucking bad, I'm just gonna call you a fucktard and laugh.

Fucktard.

lol.

[Icecometus]

Back to the subject... I still like having the extra base str cause you end up having to give up a lot of str gear for resist gear. With a 128 base str you can use all the standard resist jewelry slots for resists and still have a damn good str. 255 str is still Way better then 200 as far as I can tell with what damage I do and my attack rating.

[Hasbinbad]

Back to the subject... I still like having the extra base str cause you end up having to give up a lot of str gear for resist gear. With a 128 base str you can use all the standard resist jewelry slots for resists and still have a damn good str. 255 str is still Way better then 200 as far as I can tell with what damage I do and my attack rating.
The times you are actually required to use resist gear are so few and far between IMO that this isn't an issue. While wearing full resist gear, I still have enough dps to top the charts, and it's going to be a VERY rare occasion when the extra 100-200 damage is going to cause a god or dragon to run.

[Icecometus]

Fair enough :)

[Karorn]

Talking mad shit? I said multiple times that I could be wrong and even admitted that I was when I found the evidence. That fact that you would go and insult me after that (when I had never said a rude word to you) leads me to believe you have some kind of issues with your self worth. Your lack of originality, reading comprehension, and manners sicken me. I'm done with this thead.

If you're old enough to be here you're old enough to treat people with more respect than that. Grow up.

[Hasbinbad]

stuff that is dumb
You just don't know when to quit, do you Fucktard?

Respect is something I am in short supply of, you get none.

[Karorn]

I'M SO COOL I HATE AND INSULT EVERYONE LOLOLOLOL

Yup, you're a real bamf man.

No really, I'm done now, I promise.

[abbadox]

a rogue that knows his class doesnt need defensive skills. besides that dex > str

I had a 65 Rogue on Morell-Thule which merged to E.Marr. I was apart of a great many planar, ToV raids and I never used STA.

It was all STR, DEX, and AGI. WHy put points into STA, when you cant protect it with AGI first? At higher levels and Kunark to soon come out, rogues will have an arsenal of armor to equip to protect the rogue well enough.

You want all Offense baby. Your main priority is to kill! KILL!!!! BACKSTAB!!!

[Hasbinbad]

I had a 65 Rogue on Morell-Thule which merged to E.Marr. I was apart of a great many planar, ToV raids and I never used STA.

It was all STR, DEX, and AGI. WHy put points into STA, when you cant protect it with AGI first? At higher levels and Kunark to soon come out, rogues will have an arsenal of armor to equip to protect the rogue well enough.

You want all Offense baby. Your main priority is to kill! KILL!!!! BACKSTAB!!!
Sooo you're saying you can get more than 255 str right now?

[mitic]

You want all Offense baby. Your main priority is to kill! KILL!!!! BACKSTAB!!!

this

[Hasbinbad]

You guys are dumb. lol.

100% offense = dead rogue. Velious geared or not.

You can't DPS if you're dead.

..also, you currently can't get more than 255 STR, so given that shaman buffs are available, there is absolutely no reason to bring your STR over 188. It's wasteful. 188 STR is easy to get, so why waste creation points on it, when you can add stamina and get a huge chunk of hps for free?

..also, the AC that AGI adds is so fucking negligible as to be next to worthless, and AC (while much improved) still does not do what it should on this server.

Basically, you guys are dumb. lol.

[mitic]

You guys are dumb. lol.

100% offense = dead rogue. Velious geared or not.

You can't DPS if you're dead.

..also, you currently can't get more than 255 STR, so given that shaman buffs are available, there is absolutely no reason to bring your STR over 188. It's wasteful. 188 STR is easy to get, so why waste creation points on it, when you can add stamina and get a huge chunk of hps for free?

..also, the AC that AGI adds is so fucking negligible as to be next to worthless, and AC (while much improved) still does not do what it should on this server.

Basically, you guys are dumb. lol.

dude, there is no golden rule on stats and again, if rogues pull aggro then they deserve their death (talking expecialy about raid-encounters)

if you want to play this class seriously go full offensive...if you just want to hack and slash jff without timing your BS properly..go sta or better...choose a tank class.

[Otto]

dude, there is no golden rule on stats and again, if rogues pull aggro then they deserve their death (talking expecialy about raid-encounters)

if you want to play this class seriously go full offensive...if you just want to hack and slash jff without timing your BS properly..go sta or better...choose a tank class.

Trollllll

Because having a healthy balance of HP and resists is unimportant during kunark/velious.

:rolleyes:

[Hasbinbad]

Trollllll

Because having a healthy balance of HP and resists is unimportant during kunark/velious.

:rolleyes:
You and I know he's a troll, but noobs might not.

Frustrates me that these guys spread misinformation to people who don't deserve it / know any better.

I hope the OP gleaned some knowledge from my and others' writings; I know it can be hard to ask for help sometimes. OP (and other noob rogues) if you ever have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Hit me up in game or via PM here.

[Weekapaug]

Rogues range from "good DPS" to "HOLY **** DPS" depending on gear and how well they are played...You really can't go wrong wherever you put your stats, honestly.

That said, when I created my rogue the conventional wisdom was to get all your melee stats to 75 then dump the rest into STA, but that was said of pretty much every class at the time. If I had it to do all over again, I would have gotten STA, AGI and DEX to 75, then put the rest in STR....Apparently STR calculates into ATK higher than worn/buffed STR and when you get to high level it's all about your ATK because that affects the calculation of every hit you make.

If you don't care about min/maxing, I wouldn't worry about it. Dump all your points into CHA and INT or something and you will still make a kickin rogue if you gear up and learn how to do your job right.

[Weekapaug]

*double post*

[Weekapaug]

Oh, and the "dead rogues do no damage" argument is kind of bogus here....That's really more for gear choices and what AA to prioritize. Dead wizzies do no damage either, nor do dead clerics heal, but I wouldn't exactly tell them to stick all their points in STA either.

Being "dead" or not is all about how you play your rogue, not where you stick your starting points. I would sweat keeping your Defense skill up as you level, more than I would where you put your points on creation.

It really comes down to weather you want to tweak up your ATK on creation, or HPS on creation, but neither are going to make or break you.

That said, I've never seen a rogue evaluated on his hit points or ability to tank. I have very often seen rogues evaluated on DPS parses compared to other rogues and DPS classes, though. If you want every hit to be the absolutely the highest it can possibly be in a given set of gear, put your points in STR. But again, you are still going to be laying down insane DPS even with no points in STR.

[fragmaster]

From what I remember the suggested STA at creation is 100. From there you can get the HP needed to stand up to raid AoEs.

[Hasbinbad]

I would like to see some evidence of this "starting STR factors into ATK more heavily than worn/buff STR."

So far, I have seen 2 random people say "i think i remembur it."

Till then, I call bullshit and advise people to stick with max STA in creation with the rest into STR.

I've been at the brink of death too many times in raids to believe anything else is worthwhile.

Also, I *do* top the parses in DPS, while staying alive (barely, sometimes), when many other rogues might (and often do) die. Evaluate that.

[Weekapaug]

I would like to see some evidence of this "starting STR factors into ATK more heavily than worn/buff STR."

So far, I have seen 2 random people say "i think i remembur it."

Till then, I call bullshit and advise people to stick with max STA in creation with the rest into STR.



It's just a discussion, friend. I'm happy to do some research and see what I can find out. Not because you "call bullshit," you see, but because it would help people to know....You, know, the point of this discussion....on the "discussion" boards. If you would care to be helpful and present some "evidence" to the contrary yourself, then we all would benfit.

In the meantime, it's worth noting that a few people seem to remember this, at very least, being discussed. It may very well be the case. It may not. As I said in the other thread, I was skeptical at the time, and am really fuzzy about the details. But I do remember reading something about it, as do others, and it's entirely worth noting in any discussion about stats, rogue or otherwise.

I've been at the brink of death too many times in raids to believe anything else is worthwhile.

Also, I *do* top the parses in DPS, while staying alive (barely, sometimes), when many other rogues might (and often do) die. Evaluate that.

As I also said in the other discussion, I went with STA myself and have never regretted it, although I can't ever remember just barely living through a fight and thinking "Boy, I'm really glad I put those exta points into STA" lol, but then I didn't start raiding till long after Velious, so on and on it goes. Hell, the argument could be made that higher ATK or even higher DEX + weapon procs on the rogues involved in an encounter might have meant that the mob would have died sooner sparing them death, and sparing those with high STA from "the bring of death." Not the way I would go, but it's a legitimate standpoint for someone to have, weather you or I agree or not. The only thing to "call bullshit" on, is your attitude, frankly. Nothing personal.

These debates can go round and round ad nauseum. The fact is, it's largely a matter of opinion and your anectdotal evidence is no more or less valid than mine or anyone else's. Why not just discuss the issue civilly and let everyone decide for themselves, eh?

[CPTMULLER]

I would like to see some evidence of this "starting STR factors into ATK more heavily than worn/buff STR."

So far, I have seen 2 random people say "i think i remembur it."

Till then, I call bullshit and advise people to stick with max STA in creation with the rest into STR.

I've been at the brink of death too many times in raids to believe anything else is worthwhile.

Also, I *do* top the parses in DPS, while staying alive (barely, sometimes), when many other rogues might (and often do) die. Evaluate that.

I want the proof that your 200hp is saving you, it's possible, but seems unlikely.
also, not trolling.

[Aedin]

Stamina!