Melee damage

[Galacticus]

Just wondering how other melee are experiencing the beta?

Discuss.

[Galacticus]

Just wondering

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/251/f/e/Clint_Eastwood_Legend_by_donvito62.png

[Galacticus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL-X53ze5O0&feature=related

[C5BAMF]

I think the melee range could be upped slightly.
Casters that have several levels on you are murderous, naturally. Perhaps my cloth isn't cutting it.

[Amuk]

You really want to know how the naked melees with shit weapons are finding beta? There's like 10 posts that demonstrate noone worth a shit is spending 5 played time days for beta, therefore noone knows.

[Cwall]

ez with gatorsmash maul

those fragile gnome bodies can't hang

[Galacticus]

You really want to know how the naked melees with shit weapons are finding beta? There's like 10 posts that demonstrate noone worth a shit is spending 5 played time days for beta, therefore noone knows.

O thought thats what beta's all about.

[Bockscar]

Eh... haven't really got enough evidence to prove much, but my level 14 ranger can't melee for shit. I'm pretty sure I couldn't solo a low blue mob if I tried. It doesn't seem significantly different from p99, though, and I don't think it's far from how it was back then. Just the hit rate seems kinda low. Pretty sure my ranger does less than 1 DPS on average, no joke. Killing a blue mob (with my cleric healing) routinely takes minutes of just swinging and swinging.

[Silikten]

I agree with the hit rate. If the mob is db or lb you should be hitting 99/100 times. 100% if green mob. Then missing more as even con+

[Ravenlof]

im playing a 20 ranger now and i hit for shit. Im lucky to hit someone for 10 dmg even with double attack and DW my dps is still shit. dont remember if it was ALWAYS this bad... i played a rogue on SZ so melee isnt new to me...

[Convict]

i think the rate seems very classic when fighting even con + mobs but i do recall being able to land hits more often on blues, light blues and greens

i have no evidence of course, which is very necessary to make any changes ;/

[Prahadigm24]

Eh... haven't really got enough evidence to prove much, but my level 14 ranger can't melee for shit. I'm pretty sure I couldn't solo a low blue mob if I tried. It doesn't seem significantly different from p99, though, and I don't think it's far from how it was back then. Just the hit rate seems kinda low. Pretty sure my ranger does less than 1 DPS on average, no joke. Killing a blue mob (with my cleric healing) routinely takes minutes of just swinging and swinging.

Sounds absolutely classic. Melee damage output WAS horrible until you got really decent weapons.

Btw I guess OP was talking about melee damage in PvP. Melee damage against NPCs should be exactly the same as on P99 and I don't think it requires any beta testing (devs might correct me here)?

[Gnar]

Hit rate is terrible, warriors will be totally useless for pvp and even holding aggro in pve groups unless this is resolved before release. I heard for 2 or 3 nights in a row where xant would hit maybe 2-3 times out of 10 swings.

[Softcore PK]

Warriors don't seem to be useless on Blue99.

[Masq]

i got my ranger to nearly 30 before I stopped playing, and the damage was terrible. I was using 2x Gladius from Unrest rare spawn, hitting for about 14-15, and missing a fuckton.

[Cwall]

yesterday i missed like 9 hits in a row on a mob like 20 levels lower than me

what
the
fuck

[juicedsixfo]

Hit rate is terrible, warriors will be totally useless for pvp and even holding aggro in pve groups unless this is resolved before release. I heard for 2 or 3 nights in a row where xant would hit maybe 2-3 times out of 10 swings.

pve, related, I have a level 12 warrior with max taunt and he cannot take aggro from anyone. If my bud's equal level SK casts one spell I literally cannot get the aggro back on myself and have to stand there smashing taunt with full hp as I watch his go down

[Cwall]

also bash misses all the fucking time how am i supposed to interrupt all these people trying to gate out on me

[Doors]

I think (but this is pure speculation) that the current melee hit/miss ratio's and damage averages are based off of p99. If this is true, things are scaled down to compensate for how powerful melee are due to Kunark loot/level 60 cap.

This is just my tinfoil hat theory though.

[Sprinkle]

just do what everyone does

MAKE A MAGE LUL

[Envious]

This is how it is on P99.

You guys are all used to the VZ/TZ op'd melees that hit 95% of the time and for max dmg.

Also, warrior aggro is fine. You just dont know what your doing.

Again, this is Project1999, and how it is. Should have played the blue server to get accustomed.

[Bockscar]

just do what everyone does

MAKE A MAGE LUL

On that note, low-level pets are kicking for 14 and shit.

[Doors]

Also, warrior aggro is fine. You just dont know what your doing.


Actually its broken and has been broken like on the blue box.

[Envious]

Played a warrior on blue box, held aggro fine. You don't know what your doing wrong. And I don't care to help you.

Melée dmg is fine, Rexx (blue con) melted my Mage and clerics hps earlier today.

[Doors]

lol whatever you say bro. Can't argue with stupid.

Warriors can't hold aggro without proc weapons. Same on beta as on p99. When this box opens it will be a bit till anyone gets those.

Warrior aggro is, and has been, broken. Nobody cares that you hold aggro with 50k worth of twink gear on p99.

[Aadill]

Melee agro generation does not work. Taunt does work. Procs do work. Melee damage is approximately classic. Hit rates are approximately classic at around 60%.

[Evoken]

On that note, low-level pets are kicking for 14 and shit.

Lol I know it's awesome. I can literally send my pet against any given blue, med, afk, come back and have exp+loot and a 2/3rds health pet.

[Envious]

My P99 char was a non twinned warrior.

Guy above me is correct, it's fine. Learn how it works~

[Envious]

Melee agro generation does not work. Taunt does work. Procs do work. Melee damage is approximately classic. Hit rates are approximately classic at around 60%.

This guy was the above poster I mentioned.

Use forum search? Lol

Test on P99? Lol

Weapons easy to get? Use search? Lol

[tmoneynegro]

Melee damage is approximately classic. Hit rates are approximately classic at around 60%.

Are you high dude, there is no flat 60% hit rate in EQ. On EQ live, I don't remember even being able to miss a level 1. You definitely get a bonus or penalty based on your level vs opponent.

I doubt it's 60% vs even cons either. If that was true, attacking a warrior in PvP and trying to get through his dodge, parry, and riposte would leave you with something like a 30% hit rate and in real EQ PvP, I'm pretty sure at least half of my swings landed.

[Nirgon]

also bash misses all the fucking time how am i supposed to interrupt all these people trying to gate out on me

Because you cant train bash as a shaman which raises your chance to hit and damage with slam?

[Bockscar]

I seem to remember that slam goes off your hand to hand skill if you don't have the bash skill. Not sure if that's for reals. It also uses your arm or shoulder armor to determine whether you can hit stuff that requires a magical weapon. Not that this matters in PvP.

[Nirgon]

Newp

[Doors]

Melee vs. PCs chance to hit and damage against is actually really high, compared to vs. NPCs.

Even as a wizard I swing and hit people for decent damage, rarely if ever missing from behind. I also hit for close to the maximum for my weapon. My weapon skills are terrible though.

[juicedsixfo]

Melee vs. PCs chance to hit and damage against is actually really high, compared to vs. NPCs.

Even as a wizard I swing and hit people for decent damage, rarely if ever missing from behind. I also hit for close to the maximum for my weapon. My weapon skills are terrible though.

Strangely enough my Shaman hits almost every single time in PvE, while my warrior goes for about 3 hits out of 10

[Morninx]

how is PvE shit not working properly? hasnt there been years long worth of testing done on Blue99? Maybe im missing something but should the codes just be the same?

[Amuk]

Well the people saying it's low were from VZ/TZ where melee damage was really crazy, the damage here seems on par with p99, whether that's classic fuck if I can remember.

[Billbike]

Melee dmg was upped to try and balance them on VZTZ. Now imagine naked casters farming your precious melee pixels. Right Nirgon? (itemloot proponent)

[Ravenlof]

i got my ranger to nearly 30 before I stopped playing, and the damage was terrible. I was using 2x Gladius from Unrest rare spawn, hitting for about 14-15, and missing a fuckton.

i also feel the same way. Gonna quit melee and go back to casters maybe =(

[Mardur]

I seem to remember that slam goes off your hand to hand skill if you don't have the bash skill. Not sure if that's for reals. It also uses your arm or shoulder armor to determine whether you can hit stuff that requires a magical weapon. Not that this matters in PvP.

Slam is based on Bash skill no matter what. If you don't have Bash, then your slam-bash-modifier is always 0.

[mimixownzall]

Are you high dude, there is no flat 60% hit rate in EQ. On EQ live, I don't remember even being able to miss a level 1. You definitely get a bonus or penalty based on your level vs opponent.

I doubt it's 60% vs even cons either. If that was true, attacking a warrior in PvP and trying to get through his dodge, parry, and riposte would leave you with something like a 30% hit rate and in real EQ PvP, I'm pretty sure at least half of my swings landed.

Yep... He even made a graph to illustrate his findings.

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/graph.gif

[Envious]

Well the people saying it's low were from VZ/TZ where melee damage was really crazy, the damage here seems on par with p99, whether that's classic fuck if I can remember.

^This

[Billbike]

One of two things will happen.

1. Melees will be a PvE archetype only.

2. Melees get modified and brought up to PvP competition capability.

There inevitably will be a few novelties who PvP with raid geared melees, but they too would fall to any well played caster/healer.

Can PvP changes be made, while not affecting PvE? On VZTZ, a few fixes were tried. I believe the hit rates were adjusted, warriors were imbued with triple attack, etc. Could any of these be made to effect PvP only? (for those who fear PvE imbalance).

Being proactive is NOT a sin. No need to be scared of evolution. It will still be classic, only better.

Just try something, anything besides nothing.

[Harrison]

Yeah, let's adjust melee like vztz did. That server was so balanced and successful...oh wait.

No.

[Bockscar]

It's not very far from classic. Probably pretty accurate with perhaps a slight skew in the wrong direction. Melee were plenty viable in classic, and they were fine on p99 pre-Kunark as well, they just suck an enormous schlong in the early levels. That's a fact of life. I specifically remember having a level 20 paladin on Tallon and I went to Crushbone and fought some guy, but I missed like 9 swings in a row, got raped, and went and raged on the castersrealm forums.

Consider, for instance, that our weapons suck. Melees are running around with 5dmg weapons. When a hit gets mitigated to less than 1 damage, it displays as a miss. When your maximum damage is 10, you'll get a lot more displayed misses due to the damage being mitigated to less than 1. Look at screenshots from someone like cwall with a 30dmg weapon - his hits look fairly consistent, and that's because a hit with a 30dmg weapon will very rarely be mitigated to 0. Once better weapons, damage tables and melee damage bonus kicks in, it'll help a lot.

What we absolutely do not need is a bunch of custom shit on red99. Like p99, the server's popularity hinges on the classic factor. A select few things can be tampered with, such as removing egg-shamed pumice because it destroys PvP and was taken out before Kunark anyway, but class mechanics should stay 100% classic.

[valithteezee]

It's being tweaked as we speak guys.

[pickled_heretic]

Welcome To Classic

[Treats]

Consider, for instance, that our weapons suck. Melees are running around with 5dmg weapons. When a hit gets mitigated to less than 1 damage, it displays as a miss. When your maximum damage is 10, you'll get a lot more displayed misses due to the damage being mitigated to less than 1. Look at screenshots from someone like cwall with a 30dmg weapon - his hits look fairly consistent, and that's because a hit with a 30dmg weapon will very rarely be mitigated to 0. Once better weapons, damage tables and melee damage bonus kicks in, it'll help a lot.

Not sure how people came up with this theory that you can mitigate at hit into a miss. This is not possible. Avoidance and Mitigation are SEPARATE mechanics.

Weapon skill affects the following:



- Offense rating. Offense is used in two ways for PCs. First, it is rolled against the opponent's mitigation to determine initial damage amount. This is based on an index from 1 to 20 and is the same for NPC attacks. Second, for PCs only, it is used in conjunction with damage tables to determine extra damage. This extra damage is capped at a percent based on your damage tables - that's the 3.05 number you know, although in fact it also adds +1 damage if you're level 55 or higher. Once you have enough offense to roll that percentage, you won't see your max hit increase simply by gaining more attack, although your average percentage will increase. This is one reason why offense has diminishing returns at high amounts.



- To-hit rating. To-hit is rolled against the opponent's avoidance to determine if an attack hits or misses.

If you suspect there are problems with hit/miss ratio, do parses at lower levels and post in the bug forum.

[Envious]

It's being tweaked as we speak guys.

VZ/TZ clowns ruining this server before its out of beta

[Aadill]

The only viable argument someone has made is that PvP vs PvE has different damage formulae but no proof has been presented for that to be the case.

[Envious]

I am sure the PvE formula here is the same as P99, so no reason to change it.

VZ/TZ people just have no clue, as that server was retard bonkers in favor of melée.

[Harrison]

P.S. - Lastly, keep the XP exactly like p99. Mid level pvp is FUN and it didn’t exist on VZTZ, but furthermore, bans will mean A LOT more when it takes months to get to 60, when it takes more months to get that uber item.

And last for real, don’t let these players troll you guys into making bad decisions, they are very good at what they do (see: ninja trolls), and they will try to get you to make certain changes under false pretenses or with ulterior motives in mind.

This is what is happening right now.

[Aadill]

^ yep.

[Kungen]

Buffed melees with resist gear already rape everything on this beta.

[Envious]

Buffed melees with resist gear already rape everything on this beta.

I haven't seen it, but believe it.

[Kungen]

Most casters can do like 3-6 nukes (3 if you count Ice comets) at level 50 before they go oom and that's not even close to killing a buffed high level melee with resist gear :x. Casters only shine early on during leveling when no one is wielding proper gear.

[Aadill]

Most casters can do like 3-6 nukes (3 if you count Ice comets) at level 50 before they go oom and that's not even close to killing a buffed high level melee with resist gear :x. Casters only shine early on during leveling when no one is wielding proper gear.

Basically this. If everyone would get off their sippycups and grow a god damn pair I'm sure it would be fine.

[Palemoon]

This is what is happening right now.

Yep, like Darwoth trying to get factions in several dungeons changed so he can PvP in them and have the dungeon inhabitants act as his personal city guards should anyone fight back.

Or claiming Imp Protectors are not supposed to see invisi, so he can ambush efreeti campers better lol.

Got to watch out for this stuff. The griefers just want to grief, they don't care of the server burns down around them.

[Bockscar]

Most casters can do like 3-6 nukes (3 if you count Ice comets) at level 50 before they go oom and that's not even close to killing a buffed high level melee with resist gear :x. Casters only shine early on during leveling when no one is wielding proper gear.

Most people also have like 1000-1500ish HP with that resist gear on, so you don't need to land that many spells. Getting 150 FR or CR takes some serious gear and an easily dispellable buff. Most people will be running around with 80-100ish tops. Spam flux staff until it lands and that debuff coupled with the innate -10 resist check on wizard nukes will make sure nukes consistently land, even if it's for half damage some of the time.

Other classes can do even better. A full ebolt is like 1100 damage for 300 mana and poison resist is hard to get. Pets do a lot of damage by themselves. Druids can cast their ice nuke which applies a -50 FR debuff and then follow up with starfire, each with a max damage of 600+ before the PvP penalty. Necro dots hurt like hell and are mostly unresistable. Pumice and cure potions can counter some of it, but you can also buy insta invis potions and other assorted crap. The only melee class that can cast see invis is shadowknight and there are practically no see invis items until Kunark.

Resist gear mostly just evens the playing field. You'll still get hit by nukes for 500+ fairly regularly unless there's a bard singing resist songs, and several casters have pets that basically melee like a ranger all by themselves. People only sit at like 120MR 100FR 100CR in high-end resist gear at this point in time. Most casters have ways to overcome that, and with a bit of luck or the right debuffs, you can take out most people in two or three casts.

[Aadill]

Welcome to Everquest Classic PvP.

[lindz]

Buffed melees with resist gear already rape everything on this beta.

^This.

Bard speeded, hasted melee are beasts in group pvp. Melee will never be open world gankers, but they are not meant to be.

It is stupid to say melee are useless in pvp. They are difficult to play at the beginning because they get good later (and are far more gear dependent) but they really shine in group pvp where they have good support.

[Kungen]

Bockscar this is a beta 1 week in and some people already have 100 FR+ and you're talking about certain situations. 1000-1500hp? I'm talking about buffed melee's, not melee's running around solo. They got 2000-2500hp without even having shaman buffs. A wizard with full mana can basically do 3 Ice Comet and the other mana left they need for shadow steps, gates or whatever cause the person won't even be close to dead.

Caster's can't do shit on buffed/decent geared melee's and that won't ever change.

[Kungen]

I'm not saying that Melee's will go rape casters cause you got gates and other spells to escape. But the melees won't be the one running away that's for sure. Obviously it's a group pvp game and every class can be useful. But you got the whole forum crying that melees are bad when it's the TOTAL OPPOSITE in end game pvp.

[Bockscar]

Then that wizard better have some pumice. Shadowstep, dispel, shadowstep, dispel, shadowstep, dispel. That'll take care of just about any buff the guy had, and very few people will have access to multiple insta-clickies before Kunark. If it's in a dungeon where the wizard can't shadowstep around much, he'll die because that's what casters do in dungeons. Casters are perfectly viable, melees just catch up in the endgame and become strong. According to your logic, casters would be plain unplayable at 50 because casters can also get pretty high resists with the right gear. A caster with a few planar pieces and diamond jewelry, froggy crown etc. easily has 100+ FR/CR. I hope you're not arguing that casters are useless in classic PvP.

[Kungen]

I welcome you to try Pumice in the beta. It resists about 19 of 20 times on someone with 50 MR.. 0% if higher.

[Bockscar]

That's because it's bugged to shit. Everyone knows dispels weren't resistable. The server won't go live like that.

[Kungen]

And to spice it up even more. The casting time on nukes at 50 are so long that anyone can just run out of range with jboots or sow before it casts... EVEN if you stand right on them..

[Kungen]

Even Golem wands are useless in beta, the only dispell that works is cancel magic which 1 jboots solve alone.

[kobexbloo]

i got my ranger to nearly 30 before I stopped playing, and the damage was terrible. I was using 2x Gladius from Unrest rare spawn, hitting for about 14-15, and missing a fuckton.

I am playing a ranger too, level 30. I am just missing TOO MUCH (way more than 50% on dark blues), and the hit box problem is big too, gnomes just strafe all around you and you can't hit them.

[Billbike]

Bockscar this is a beta 1 week in and some people already have 100 FR+ and you're talking about certain situations. 1000-1500hp? I'm talking about buffed melee's, not melee's running around solo. They got 2000-2500hp without even having shaman buffs. A wizard with full mana can basically do 3 Ice Comet and the other mana left they need for shadow steps, gates or whatever cause the person won't even be close to dead.

Caster's can't do shit on buffed/decent geared melee's and that won't ever change.

I like how in the examples, wizards are used. If you sub a any other caster or healer (besides cleric maybe), melee dies every time, unless they have a deticated healer and they are fighting a solo caster.

[Gnar]

I do not know what I am doing. Melée dmg is fine, Rexx (blue con) melted my Mage and clerics hps earlier today.

You let a blue con melee whoop up on your mage + cleric? You're fucking horrible.

[taakyn]

^^^^^ bad player

[mokfarg]

I thought these players trolling the general forums said "blubies" wine too much. I have never seen so many whiny post before in this forum section.

[mimixownzall]

You let a blue con melee whoop up on your mage + cleric? You're fucking horrible.

The way the resists are right now, this doesnt surprise me. Even blues are partialing nukes like crazy. I had someone attack me who was 8 levels higher while i had zero resists. His nuke hit twice and did maybe 25 damage total. It's fkin stupid right now.

Pets are gimper than they should be, too.

[Envious]

You let a blue con melee whoop up on your mage + cleric? You're fucking horrible.

Lol, completely naked, boxed, mostly OOM casters, caught by a monk + cleric? In a narrow hallway, blocked in by a possible 3 adds?

Yeah... so, I gated. Dont even remember what I was doing in Sol B.

Gnar, I guess you havent played much beta? I have seen a blue con run from Specs in Oasis to Nro zoneline, with a SoW'd air pet that was prolly even con on him, with 2 mages nuking him, and 2+ chars spamming dispell for 30seconds before he ran... at 8% hps the whole time.

So yeah... play more?

[tmoneynegro]

Can people stop being morons and posting about resists like you can compare melee vs caster balance right now when the current system is broken and obviously not going live like this.

[Sniperfire]

i seem to hit players for full often and miss alot on mobs my opinion is ac isnt working in pvp

[Rob]

I was PvPing against Darwoth's twink ranger last night and I think he was hitting me just fine, constant max damage (He was blue to me like level 10 or something) I was 15 at the time he was hitting me for 28 a bunch with his 2her and 19 consistently with his bow. Pretty sure you guys just need to play better.

[Aesop]

skills might also be buggy in pvp. this is anecdotal but when i was fighting knukkle in grobb a long time ago i was hitting max dmg and hitting really well and i had like (2) skill in 2hs. It doesn't seem to translate to backstab damage though - my backstab skill is really low for my level and it's hitting accordingly.

[juicedsixfo]

My warrior at 15 hits once every six rounds with all skills maxed, and cant taunt a blue mob off my shaman after it casts one spell. Meanwhile my SK doesn't seem to have any problem hitting, tanking, or holding aggro.

Taunt is broke as fuck, melee is extremely gimped right now. If you go warrior on live than lol at you

[Combobreaker]

My warrior at 15 hits once every six rounds with all skills maxed, and cant taunt a blue mob off my shaman after it casts one spell. Meanwhile my SK doesn't seem to have any problem hitting, tanking, or holding aggro.

Taunt is broke as fuck, melee is extremely gimped right now. If you go warrior on live than lol at you

I'll be a warrior on live. SUP?!