Should PvP be Enabled on Boats?

[Aksiom2k]

Currently, (as well as classically, as the player base seems to recall) melee attacking is enabled on boats while casting new spells/songs is disabled/prevented.

[Rust1d?]

Make it so.

[Kungen]

Remove all PVP on boats. It's just gonna be a hassle for GM's to help people get their corpses back.

[Softcore PK]

Casters get see invis (exception cleric), if they die because they didn't take the proper precautions it's their own fault.

[mitic]

doubt this is fixable since it would be alot of work to disable pvp along the whole boat route

[C5BAMF]

Boats barely even function in the first place.

[Morninx]

1) put in translocators. Boats have always been a shitty part of EQ. 2) pvp was removed from boats after it was a hastle for GMs in real EQ.. unless im mistaken...

[ChubbyBubbles]

1) put in translocators. Boats have always been a shitty part of EQ. 2) pvp was removed from boats after it was a hastle for GMs in real EQ.. unless im mistaken...

Wouldn't mind translocators. I would prefer the classic boat style but seems a little lopsided if people can shank casters and casters can't retaliate at all.

[C5BAMF]

I'm against trans-locators. It's better to leave them as they are and fix them at a later point in time.

[nilbog]

Casters get griefed? Lawl. Predictions didn't touch that one.

As far as removing pvp on boats. I'm sure it would be similar to ..

if isonboat == 1, pvp == 0.

Translocators not happening. And pvp wasn't removed from boats. AFAIK, boats were removed from eq because directx broke their solidity.

[Mardur]

Everything works the same as it did on classic (besides ships using a different model but that's irrelevant) so don't count on anything getting changed just because "it would be nice."

Edit: Er, yeah, Nilbog beat me.

[mitic]

i dont recal casters being able to pvp on live while traveling on boats so why asking for something not classic?

[Aksiom2k]

@mitic

I can disable melee / all pvp actions while players are on a boat, but you guys are right that it may have been possible to melee on live but not spellcast. Let me know thoughts. My opinion is that pvp should be disabled.

^ This is the reason I created the poll. To start a discussion based on Rogean's response the the "bug" report on the pvp bug forums.

[gloinz]

boat pvp is the best, if u dont want to die as a spellcaster just jump off an swim for an island

[Sirken]

i dont recal casters being able to pvp on live while traveling on boats so why asking for something not classic?

get SoW/Jboots as well as a lev, and casters should be able to run along side the boat blasting kids into oblivion.

[Aksiom2k]

Bump. Please Vote.

[Bockscar]

Personally, I'd like to see PvP on boats removed, it just doesn't serve any purpose and can by definition not lead to any kind of positive PvP. It just makes it more or less impossible for casters to travel by boat. Keeping it as classic as possible is important as well, though, so I'm not really sure. Claiming that boat PvP is a good thing is retarded, but I might accept that it's there just because it's classic.

Casters get see invis (exception cleric), if they die because they didn't take the proper precautions it's their own fault.

What precaution can you possibly take other than just accepting that sailing is pretty much not an option if you're not melee? It's not as if see invis is going to save you in any way. There could be a warrior standing smack dab in the center of the boat doing the helicopter and it wouldn't matter how many precautions you take, he's still going to land an automatic, unavoidable kill on you if you step on that boat. The only thing you can possibly do is go invis, but the melee could just as easily have see invis on, and it's not very likely that your invis will last the whole trip anyway.

[pasi]

Who rolls a caster/race without hide? Other than shamans ofc. Most melee won't have see invis.

[Bockscar]

I'm pretty sure you can't hide on boats once they start sailing unless you're a rogue since they're the only ones who can move while hidden.

[Softcore PK]

What precaution can you possibly take other than just accepting that sailing is pretty much not an option if you're not melee? It's not as if see invis is going to save you in any way. There could be a warrior standing smack dab in the center of the boat doing the helicopter and it wouldn't matter how many precautions you take, he's still going to land an automatic, unavoidable kill on you if you step on that boat. The only thing you can possibly do is go invis, but the melee could just as easily have see invis on, and it's not very likely that your invis will last the whole trip anyway.

You would see who else gets on the boat with you, ofc. And if those casters don't want to risk a boat ride with a scary rogue, they can wait for the next one.

[mimixownzall]

This is a case where 'keep it classic' need not apply. Why allow areas where casters or melee can't defend themselves or realistically get away? This will also just cause problems with GMs and Guides. As many griefers as this server will have, this will be a huge problem.

[Nirgon]

Just add a no PvP element to the invisible levitate buff that you get on p99.

[Softcore PK]

The boat rides SUCK because they take forever. I seriously doubt there are gonna be many melee characters that hang out on a boat for the sole purpose of ganking a caster or 2 once every few hours. And with see invis, those casters will be able to see who's on the boat before hopping on. They should have to choose between taking their chances, or playing it safe and waiting for the next boat.

As it has been since the beginning of time :)

[Yukahwa]

Being a pirate on EQ and owning a boat sounds really badass to me.

[Palemoon]

keep it classic.

And i'd LOVE to see a video of a rogue murdering casters on a boat ride. So immersive.

They dont want to be murdered by the evil pirate? walk the plank...

[Yukahwa]

Oh and I do think its pretty dumb that casters can't cast on boats but can be killed.

I can't remember how it was on boats on RZ in kunark /velious as far as on boat PVP goes. I was a ranger and always boarded with camo up and was as cowardly as possible.

[Rogean]

The difficulty of the change is irrelevant; We have a variable in the client class that is set to true when you are on a boat. This can simply be checked in the IsAttackAllowed function.

This discussion would be for if we were to make that change or not, and it seems we won't be making that change since this is operating as classic. It would require a compelling argument at that point for us to change it.

[lethdar]

The poll is terribly biased in its wording and its still more popular to keep it classic, good call rogean.

[georgie]

i think they should revamp the boat i fucking cant enjoy a boat ride, im trying to explore the boat and i just fall through

[lethdar]

I've fallen through the boat a few times too, im more afraid of hitting a bad spot in it than someone attacking me tbh.

[Yukahwa]

No one misunderstands the biased wording in the poll.

I think its pretty much dumb, but it doesn't really make a difference to me.

[Goraxx]

Watch out for landsharks bros

[Aksiom2k]

The difficulty of the change is irrelevant; We have a variable in the client class that is set to true when you are on a boat. This can simply be checked in the IsAttackAllowed function.

This discussion would be for if we were to make that change or not, and it seems we won't be making that change since this is operating as classic. It would require a compelling argument at that point for us to change it.

First, let me apologize to anyone who misconstrued the wording of my poll. It was not to curry favor with anyone voting but rather a jest upon my own experience playing on VZ.

Secondly, my argument for removing melee from boats. I will try to make it as compelling as possible.

Boats in Norrath represent an unbiased, neutral, and free form of transportation between continents. Without them, the ability to travel to certain zones for classes that cannot port (and who cannot obtain a port) would be impossible. It would also limit the ability to travel to specific zones (i.e. you must be on a boat to be able to enter OOT) At the opening of a new server, when classes that have the ability to port are not yet of level, boats are truly the sole means of transportation to the separate continents of Norrath.

If we disregard the axiom of boat neutrality in favor of a certain class, race, or gender, we limit the ability of the opposing faction to travel.

Let us assume, melee vs. casting aside, that each boat has a crew made up of the races that inhabit the shores from each city that it docks in. The Erudin-Qeynos boat will be composed of Human and Erudite; the Freeport-Butcherblock boat's crew will be Human and Dwarf. Traveling for evil races of low level would be out of the question, and the balance of the game would change. This would create an unfair burden for those races that wished to travel to a new continent.

What I am trying to say is that the neutrality of the boats is more of a integral {classic} part of the game than being able to fight on them. As was mentioned on other threads, PvP servers were not the first servers released. PvP itself is not "classic". It is true that all classes can melee, some better than others. But there is no area in Norrath where melee is disabled and casting is enabled. Why should it be otherwise? Why should melee classes have an advantage in pvp on the basic mode of transport for all classes?

People seem to be giddy over the idea of having a relative melee safe zone over casters where they will be favored. The idea of a "safe zone" on a pvp server is bad enough but it shouldn't be "safe for some,but not for others". "Safe for all or safe for none" is how the boats need to be treated.

To keep it balanced, take pvp off boats or allow casters to cast on boats (if that is even possible).

Thank you.

[Sarkhan]

I voted to keep melee enabled on boats. . .

Having said that, I do see major problems and much griefing that will happen. Boats can be difficult enough as it is without pvp, not to mention all the pvp that will happen while the people are simply waiting for boats.

Corpse runs WILL be hell, people WILL be bored and simply ride the boat all day to kill casters (if enabled casting it would still be difficult on casters because of limited running space. . . still wondering what would happened if rooted on boat though)
I also believe there should be NO safe zones/areas. People riding boats all day long avoiding pvp isn't a fancy idea imo, but not that terrible since there will be no global OOC.. if global OOC was live it would be even worse with non-pvp boats.

Overall though, being on a boat would be quite distracting, don't know how casters would concentrate enough to throw a fireball :-P <-- reason why casting never was there on launch of EQ.

So people should learn, and learn fast, a few lessons of Norrath:
1. Life is hard
2. Traveling is harder
3. Watch out for boarding parties ready to levitate onto, or cast on you from passing islands
4. Make friends, don't put yourself in stupid situations

[Bockscar]

I also believe there should be NO safe zones/areas. People riding boats all day long avoiding pvp isn't a fancy idea imo, but not that terrible since there will be no global OOC.. if global OOC was live it would be even worse with non-pvp boats.

What's so absolutely taboo about a safe area? I'd fully agree that there shouldn't be an actual zone where PvP cannot take place, but the notion that all players must be killable at all times every second of their lives no matter what, it just doesn't really serve any purpose. It's not as if you can cheat or win by not being attackable. Level 1 characters in cities cannot be attacked, and it doesn't create any problems whatsoever. People will not log in and rush to sit safely on a boat so they can avoid PvP, that's absurd.

There's a fundamental and painfully obvious problem with having melee enabled and casting disabled on boats. Knowing the average player on this server, I have no doubt at all that someone (and probably several) will make a habit it out sitting their melee characters on boats just to effortlessly gank casters who try to travel. It's a ridiculous concept, far worse than an area that's plain non-PvP. I'm guessing casting was disabled for mechanical reasons, and the original boats were really hamfisted implementations whose code probably just made it impossible to cast spells on a boat. It wasn't some conscious design choice. It's the same thing as how bards can use clickies with a cast time while running: the developers simply couldn't figure out how to change it, and so it became a "feature."

It's up to the GMs in the end, but if they choose to allow melee on boats, all it means to most players is that they can't sail with their caster characters. If it's left that way for the purpose of preserving the classic ideal, so be it. That doesn't change the fact that it's a staggeringly retarded feature that has no redeeming qualities and hugely broken implications for general gameplay, and it's one of the few things that I do think they should be free to change. Leave classes, spells, equipment, mobs, quests and other fundamental mechanics intact, but shit that's completely broken and just makes the game worse without having any conceivable positive aspects are things nobody will miss.

[Sarkhan]

As I said, I did vote to keep melee on boats but I did point out that there would be a lot of griefing. I'd rather see casters enabled casting on boats (and it actually wouldn't bother me too much) before I see no-pvp though. Melee still always had to worry about other melee on boats, casters waiting on islands for boats to pass by to gank melee too. It's not like being melee makes you a god on a boat, just reduces the chances of being nuked to death...

Besides, if people start riding boats all day to kill a caster, they are going to get a bad reputation and they themselves will find life won't be so easy on them. The community does tend to punish asshats eventually

[Yukahwa]

Rogean.. Having thought about this, I think that PVP on boats should be disabled.

The reason is that you have so far attempted to make a new PVP server with unique rules and functionality in order to make the best pvp experience possible.

If you have a dynamic range in order to make pvp a little more fair (you do) then you might as well disabled pvp on boats so its not such a treacherous journey. Or allow casting on boats with PVP so it is real pvp not just casters getting ran off the boat.

I really think you or someone should decide what you are trying to do and what group of players you want to appeal to. If you want casual players to enjoy the server, an 8 level limit is not really acceptable. These players will start off at level 1 and get worked consistently until they either quit of they finally get to their upper 40's and aren't overpowered by people higher level then them. Most will quit.

+- 8 level is a pvp range that pretends to promote fair pvp. The dynamic range system confuses most people and really just means you they get killed by people way outside of their ability to defend themselves.

Low level PVP is very important to me because that is what got me hooked on everquest PVP. An 8 level range starting at level 1 really doesn't make for a fun experience for anyone.

I honestly believe an unlimited PVP range would work better than 8 levels just because it would force people to come together and make real decisions about who they murder and who they dont murder.

I think high stakes PVP (item loot) with a competitive spread (4 levels) really does work a lot better. To soften the experience if item loot really does break too many hearts, the item looted could be 1 randomly selected equipped item barring held and range slots.

[Softcore PK]

It's kinda funny how everyone wants the ruleset they had on live. RZ players want 4 level range and item loot, VZ and TZ players want 8 level range and no item loot, and SZ players want legal training.

:P

[lethdar]

I really think you or someone should decide what you are trying to do and what group of players you want to appeal to. If you want casual players to enjoy the server, an 8 level limit is not really acceptable. These players will start off at level 1 and get worked consistently until they either quit of they finally get to their upper 40's and aren't overpowered by people higher level then them. Most will quit.

+- 8 level is a pvp range that pretends to promote fair pvp. The dynamic range system confuses most people and really just means you they get killed by people way outside of their ability to defend themselves.


I honestly believe an unlimited PVP range would work better than 8 levels just because it would force people to come together and make real decisions about who they murder and who they dont murder.


Are you seriously this retarded?

[Yukahwa]

Some things I say I am actually this retarded about and other things I'm more flexible on. Which part specifically are you talking about? Maybe you want to actually offer up some pro's of an 8 level pvp range, since I have offered some cons that you don't really address by asking how seriously I am retarded? Are you this retarded?

8 level limit doesn't really offer anything but a bleak middle ground. It limits the number of people that can stomp on a player at low levels, but it still means a lot of pvp encounters are a nothing more than a waste of time.

[lethdar]

Problem: Bluebies can't handle +- 8 lvl range, they're getting gimped by people higher lvl than them, you claim they will quit.

Your solution: No lvl range...

Conclusion: Figure it out yourself.

[Yukahwa]

Lethdar - thanks for the response.

The point I am trying to make is that a +- 8 level dynamic range isn't far from being a simple unlimited PVP range. The unlimited range has the benefit of allowing higher level players to go defend lowbies in their favorite or home zones too. The 8 level dynamic range is more of an unhappy mediocre than a happy medium. It doesn't have any of the pluses of the unlimited range (simplicity) or the pluses of a 4 level range (everyone is pvp range is more or less killable).

[Aksiom2k]

You have both brought up good points about the range of levels. However, please keep the conversation on this thread about pvp function on boats. TY

[Nirgon]

Unlimited pvp range on boats.

Fixed.

Continue discussion.

[Muaar]

enable pvp on boats but when someone dies have them teleported back to bind with gear and exp intact? could be exploited as an easy gate, i guess.

[fauxreigner]

Disable PvP on boats, unless you're adhering to your "keep it classic" mantra - which I don't think applies when the game is unbalanced or has a terrible flaw in its mechanics.


Alternate solution: Allow casting on boats and enable PvP. Find some way to keep a player's X, Y, Z coordinates relative to the trajectory of the boat in order to prevent every spell from being interrupted due to movement.

[lethdar]

How about, learn to play everquest and enjoy the shit that makes it so unique?

If you don't like waiting for boats / preparing for the situation with melee / having lev up to step off and cast on people / etc then just get a port and stop being such a helpless pussy.

Next up, please nerf levitate, it's not fair that melee can't attack someone levitated! To be followed by "Jousting is hard, it's not fair that melee attacks require a mediocre amount of skill to land, increase hitbox by 100%, and so on.

[fauxreigner]

u mad bro?

[Bockscar]

Alternate solution: Allow casting on boats and enable PvP. Find some way to keep a player's X, Y, Z coordinates relative to the trajectory of the boat in order to prevent every spell from being interrupted due to movement.

I don't think that's possible. It's like one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game. It's the reason they had to disable casting on boats in the first place. The only way you could make that work is something silly like making the boat teleport to some spot out in the ocean, sit still for twenty minutes, and then warp to the next dock.

Either keep it as it is to preserve classicness or disable melee on boats, any elaborate solution will probably just be too weird and artificial. I don't care hugely either way, but knowing this server's population, I'm fully expecting certain players to just set up shop as full-time pirates and make boat travel useless.

[lethdar]

PVP on boats is hard, no target rings is hard, skeleton illusion with no player names is hard to target, meditate with book open is hard plz dont add it, xp is hard please give bonus, jousting is hard plz up melee hit box, no duck to interrupt is hard, QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

[Softcore PK]

No one is going to spend any extended amount of time stting on a boat, waiting for casters to come on. It would be so dull, with it taking 30 minutes to get from one dock to another. And once it gets there, there is of course no guarantee that anyone will even get on.

[fauxreigner]

I don't think that's possible. It's like one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game. It's the reason they had to disable casting on boats in the first place.

You may be right, but I thought the boat had coordinates, too. In theory, you could easily find the displacement of a character from the boat and keep track of it while a player is casting.

In practice, yeah, it would probably be a bit clumsy.

[fauxreigner]

PVP on boats is hard, no target rings is hard, skeleton illusion with no player names is hard to target, meditate with book open is hard plz dont add it, xp is hard please give bonus, jousting is hard plz up melee hit box, no duck to interrupt is hard, QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

troll harder next time

[lethdar]

troll harder next time

It's not a troll bro, I'm pretending I'm you.

[fauxreigner]

Oh, ok. I think I'm done with this sidebar, but you can have the last word if you'd like.