Resists and Melee

[Null]

I know its a bit early for this since pretty much everyone is under leveled and/or naked but I figured I would get this post up sooner than later.

In general I am looking for opinions on how things feel or what doesn't seem to be working. Flat out bugs should still be placed into the PvP Bug Forum (http://www.project1999.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56) but general things like 'some spell lands too often' or 'some other spell doesn't last long enough' are welcome here.

Here are somethings I already know about, feel free to post about them though:


Root and Snare seem to resist a lot on lower level players (or is it all spells?)
Melee hitbox seems too small, making it very hard to hit moving players.


Somethings I would like to hear about, some of which is probably a little early to get good info on:

How are partials feeling?
Are dribble rates good enough?
Is anyone having trouble with 3 point shots?
And pretty much everything else...

Please...Please be sure to include any relevant info like levels of players involved, approximate stats and player names so I can hunt your ass down in game and ask more direct questions if need be.

Thanks Dregs.

[Nyrod]

hi null

[Null]

Oh hi Nyrod.

[pickled_heretic]

[LIST]
Root and Snare seem to resist a lot on lower level players (or is it all spells?)

yes, root and snare almost never work if you cast them on someone else, even if they con blue to you. I casted root on a naked blue con dark elf (30 mr?) and got about 1 out of 6 to land. the one that landed lasted for about 2 ticks before it faded.

however, this is absolutely not the case if you are a mage's earth pet. i have had earth pets that con LB to me root me with a single cast of their root for about 4 ticks (24 seconds or so). and i don't ever recall resisting an attempt by an earth pet to root me.

[Nimblerot]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50104

I would have posted this here but this thread wasn't up yet, but the gist is that the earth pet's root lands way too frequently even as a blue con pet.

From my experience up to level 9 as a cleric: root, flash of light and stun land very infrequently, and root breaks too quickly with damage dealt.

[Humerox]

Resists in general seem off.

Against a blue con wizzie (lvl 18 at the time), my cleric (lvl 20 at the time) couldn't land a stun, root, or blind yesterday at all. Not once. This happened at least through 3-4 encounters. He wasn't boxing and had no one buffing his resists.

[Aesop]

lb con shaman mob landed a huge duration blind on me, despite resisting it from PC's. idk, maybe it was a mage pet with blind, could be the case.

oh this was in pvp and the mob aggroed on me, could have been a train idk.

seriously though fix mob blind.

[Nimblerot]

As a level 9 cleric, I just tried rooting/blinding a level 2. Root was resisted twice, landed once and wore off instantly, landed twice for a decent duration (15 seconds or so). Flash of light landed 2 times and was resisted 3 times. Obviously a small sample size, but a level 2 really shouldn't be able to resist any of my spells that frequently.

[Null]

helpful posts so far, how about spell casts on players higher than you?

[Nimblerot]

Umm, I don't think I've ever landed a spell on a higher con player, minus a few roots which wore off basically instantly. Haven't fought a ton of higher level players though.

[Bazooka]

My experience PvP'ing is posted in detail in this thread as well.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50104

[Bockscar]

Hitbox feels exactly as it should. It was really small and annoying back then and you had to run in front of whoever you were chasing in order to consistently hit them. It wouldn't be a fix, it would be a custom change that conflicts with the classic goal. The only thing the devs should freely change is the ruleset, not core game mechanics.

how about spell casts on players higher than you?

My limited results indicate that it looks about right. I'm getting something like a 3/4 resist rate on snare and similar spells against people who are within range but high enough to con red. That's with basic 25MR. Not enough testing to consider it solid feedback yet, though. It pretty much feels like casting on a red mob, and that's how it should be.

[Humerox]

Haven't really noticed tbh because landing something on someone higher than me makes me jizz. Has happened though. In all fairness...landing anything on someone higher than you are is bonus. My group killed a 27 wizzie today and our highest was a 24 cleric, lowest was a 19 pally...we were a full group and it seemed to go as expected.

:p

[Humerox]

Hitbox feels exactly as it should. It was really small and annoying back then and you had to run in front of whoever you were chasing in order to consistently hit them. It wouldn't be a fix, it would be a custom change that conflicts with the classic goal. The only thing the devs should freely change is the ruleset, not core game mechanics.

Gotta disagree. When you can strafe circle a melee for better than 5 minutes and not get hit...something's wrong. Was funny to outjoust the same melee on a cleric, tho. Yah...he kinda sucked.

[Nimblerot]

Hit box shouldn't be huge, but should be a little bigger than it currently is.

[Bockscar]

http://i.imgur.com/0sc7n.jpg

Any bigger and it'd just be stupid.

[georgie]

I know its a bit early for this since pretty much everyone is under leveled and/or naked but I figured I would get this post up sooner than later.

In general I am looking for opinions on how things feel or what doesn't seem to be working. Flat out bugs should still be placed into the PvP Bug Forum (http://www.project1999.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56) but general things like 'some spell lands too often' or 'some other spell doesn't last long enough' are welcome here.

Here are somethings I already know about, feel free to post about them though:


Root and Snare seem to resist a lot on lower level players (or is it all spells?)
Melee hitbox seems too small, making it very hard to hit moving players.


Somethings I would like to hear about, some of which is probably a little early to get good info on:

How are partials feeling?
Are dribble rates good enough?
Is anyone having trouble with 3 point shots?
And pretty much everything else...

Please...Please be sure to include any relevant info like levels of players involved, approximate stats and player names so I can hunt your ass down in game and ask more direct questions if need be.

Thanks Dregs.

this shamn doted me like 6 times so that's not being resisted...

[Smedy]

If you engage someone that is about 4-6 levels above you he will resist 10 roots in a row with 35 mr and the nukes will land for 5 points of damage (max dmg 60+).

The level difference seems it have a to big impact on how much things land etc.

Enchanter spells seem semi-broken, but i'm not the guy playing the enchanter so i can't speak for him.

[Irfzero]

at 24 i was getting casted on by Light blue and blue (people) - Blinds (2/5) and nuke dmg i received seemed pretty decent.

[mimixownzall]

I was trying to gank this monk (con'd red) last night and he had a red druid with him. I was level 10 or 11 at the time. They both had SoW so the druid was obviously 14+. He tried casting root on me a couple of times but I resisted with default MR for a troll shaman. The third one landed and the 4th, 5th and 6th as well. The resists seemed ok to me. With no way of dispelling roots until later, and with root/snare being an auto-win, I don't see a problem with the way it currently works.

The range for melee is pretty shitty. I have ~65 ping to the server and it is hard to hit people with melee when they are moving. I can only imagine how shitty it is for those with 150+ ping times. Like discussed in an earlier thread, I say the range be increased by 50-75% first and see how it is; but I think it really needs to be about 100% increase.

With the person at a low walk (running away with low hps) I have to be almost inside of them to hit them.

[valithteezee]

I was trying to gank this monk (con'd red) last night and he had a red druid with him. I was level 10 or 11 at the time. They both had SoW so the druid was obviously 14+. He tried casting root on me a couple of times but I resisted with default MR for a troll shaman. The third one landed and the 4th, 5th and 6th as well. The resists seemed ok to me. With no way of dispelling roots until later, and with root/snare being an auto-win, I don't see a problem with the way it currently works.

The range for melee is pretty shitty. I have ~65 ping to the server and it is hard to hit people with melee when they are moving. I can only imagine how shitty it is for those with 150+ ping times. Like discussed in an earlier thread, I say the range be increased by 50-75% first and see how it is; but I think it really needs to be about 100% increase.

With the person at a low walk (running away with low hps) I have to be almost inside of them to hit them.

^^ Clutch info. Resists don't seem all that off honesty. Maybe a bit biased at the moment towards melee considering we are all naked and stuff is getting resisted. I was fighting a druid 1 level higher and was resisting 50-60% of the spells. I don't think a 10-20% increase land-rate would be too unfair(And I play a melee). I'm actually really happy with the resist system right now after playing a few pvp box's with resists being totally screwed.

I agree with the hitbox comment as well. You really have to be on-top of them or you get "Your target is too far away".

[Banai]

MR seems pretty fucked up.. Same with the hitbox. At lvl 4 I resisted every single root/snare that a yellow con druid cast on me, was at least 4 casts. Was also almost impossible to hit when chasing :S

[gloinz]

http://i.imgur.com/0sc7n.jpg

Any bigger and it'd just be stupid.

this guy has some serious evidence here dont mess with the hitbox that looks huge to us pvp champs (and who plan on playing melee on live)

[Nerfbat]

I was fighting brisbee in misty thicket yesterday. I'd say out of 10-12 snares probably 4-5 of those landed(possibly even higher, wasn't keep track that hard). and he was a higher level. No complaints here. No tests with root however.

His blinds were working nicely as well. Probably close to the same percentage (although, we were lower level than him)

I would like to test more pvp resists.... but I cant afford any spells... *cough*

-Samwise

[Diggles]

I'm not sure if this is directly related to MR or if it's some red thing that's always been in the game, I've been hitting blue con naked players for half damage on my spells. :x

[mala]

The hit box is nearly exactly what it was in live, dont change it. Jousting is supposed to be tough and take forever.

Spell resistance compared to using them on a mob is very weird though. At lvl 4 i was able to resist a rangers snare 5 times in a row, which def should not be the case. On live you had to have decent MR to resist snares/roots more than half the time, but somehow people are resisting 80-100% of the time on here.

[Xantille]

My personal experience w/ the hitbox so far:

Jousting is obviously more difficult. I don't know how much of that has to do w/ the fact that everyone is using 50 delay 2h weapons and the client/server side refresh for swings seems off.

Chased some newblet in Innothule yesterday. I had SoW and he didn't. I literally had to be running into his back (to the extent that I was bouncing off him) in order to dual wield him to death. I think the hitbox could use a slight tweak- correct me if I'm mistaken, but on live, I remember having to run in front of people to hit them, so I'm inferring that the hitbox was larger back then.

Tiny hitboxes and hitting for 40 damage w/ a exe axe as a level 50 warrior (saw this on p99) = not a good state of affairs.

[Nirgon]

As far as resisting snare, it was pretty high resist. Ensnare on the other hand, landed more frequently. This was also the case on NPCs when using fear vs invoke fear. Invoke landed and stuck better.

[pickled_heretic]

As far as resisting snare, it was pretty high resist. Ensnare on the other hand, landed more frequently. This was also the case on NPCs when using fear vs invoke fear. Invoke landed and stuck better.

snare and ensnare have the same MR bonus (0).

[Nirgon]

I remember using both on live and snare having a shit chance and ensnare landing almost every time on NPCs.

[pickled_heretic]

I remember using both on live and snare having a shit chance and ensnare landing almost every time on NPCs.

that's great but they definitely have the same bonus.

[canardvc]

I think the hitbox could use a slight tweak- correct me if I'm mistaken, but on live, I remember having to run in front of people to hit them, so I'm inferring that the hitbox was larger back then.

Doesn't it have more to do with the connection you had back then ? With the lag you'd have to be "ahead" of them to hit them

[Billbike]

Hitbox as it was on live please. As long as it's not easymode for anyone just starting out, it should be hard to joust.

If you try to make everyone happy, you end up with WoW.

[Xantille]

Doesn't it have more to do with the connection you had back then ? With the lag you'd have to be "ahead" of them to hit them

That was probably a part of it. I don't know, though. On this beta, it seems like I press the auto attack button, unless I'm on top of the person, the attack doesn't even register, i.e. I rarely get a 'your target is too far away' message.

Then again, this could have a lot to do w/ using shit weapons w/ no haste. Which is why this 'grind to 50 to see what high level PvP is like' on beta thing is retarded.

A serious inquiry into jousting needs to be made, bros.

[dusk883]

Root and Snare seem to resist a lot on lower level players (or is it all spells?)
Melee hitbox seems too small, making it very hard to hit moving players.





Root and Snare were resisted quite a bit on the team servers right at level 6 with 0 MR, nukes weren't resisted as much, IMO without any knowledge how the coding works, not all spell lines are treated the same. And likely shouldnt be. I don't think the tank should be rooted/snared every time he's in pvp at the lower or midlevels unarmed with any ability to debuff snares/roots.

Hit boxes, IMO, should be HUGE. Spell range sure is. And this is coming from an Enchanter

[Nirgon]

Big Null, you just need to summon competent people who actually want to test to come to the arena. I hope live launches with the right resist and this thing takes off.

[lethdar]

Melee hitbox shouldn't be increased, it's already massive. Most bluebies don't know what jousting is so of course there are some initial complaints, but the box is larger already than on live.

Yes on live you had to run ahead of other players to hit them, but that was more due to the lag issues. That you can run at someones back and hit them while they're running away already shows the melee hit box is sufficiently large.

[Bockscar]

I remember using both on live and snare having a shit chance and ensnare landing almost every time on NPCs.

People need to drop that myth. Spells of a similar type with the same resist modifier do not have a magically different chance to land. There's no mechanic that somehow makes ensnare easier to land than snare, you probably just imagined it like with all the other staggeringly common EQ misconceptions.

[dusk883]

I think they did have a higher chance to land on NPCs than they did in PVP... snare lines anyway. Root lines. Mez appeared to work with a high rate of success vs either "type", player or npc.

I have zero evidence.

[Xantille]

Melee hitbox shouldn't be increased, it's already massive. Most bluebies don't know what jousting is so of course there are some initial complaints, but the box is larger already than on live.

Yes on live you had to run ahead of other players to hit them, but that was more due to the lag issues. That you can run at someones back and hit them while they're running away already shows the melee hit box is sufficiently large.

for shame BRO

for shame

[Nirgon]

People need to drop that myth. Spells of a similar type with the same resist modifier do not have a magically different chance to land. There's no mechanic that somehow makes ensnare easier to land than snare, you probably just imagined it like with all the other staggeringly common EQ misconceptions.

I remember duo'ing the west / east commons druids with a necro. Invoke fear lasted more consistently and was less resisted on NPCs. I am 100% certain broseph. The same went for snare vs ensnare on npcs.

PCs? I didn't pvp much or really at all on these classes on live. I'm just trying to drop my 2cp on spell resists for spells like snare (lvl 1) being resisted naked. It was a spell with a high/shit resist rate in my book. Ensnare should work better. Again, the reason I'm requesting testing. I know there's GM commands to instantly cast any spell and that's where you'll get your accurate data. Spells like thunderstrike for the wizard were crazy high resist, even on naked PCs (hilarious/ownage when they'd get tossed off a cliff by it).

[Bockscar]

People have been 100% certain about a lot of things, including such retarded shit as a universal anti-camp radius or that your main-hand delay becomes your off-hand delay.

[pickled_heretic]

I remember duo'ing the west / east commons druids with a necro. Invoke fear lasted more consistently and was less resisted on NPCs. I am 100% certain broseph. The same went for snare vs ensnare on npcs.

well, that's because invoke fear has a resist mod (-20). regular fear does not (0).

snare/ensnare have the exact same bonus (0) and therefore land exactly the same.

[Nirgon]

Bocks, what I'm presenting in things I can prove based on personal experience on live.

[pickled_heretic]

Bocks, what I'm presenting in things I can prove based on personal experience on live.

experiences that cannot be shared are not proof of anything. the only thing you can share is your perception of the experience which is what we call an 'anecdote'.

[Nirgon]

Yeah we have the convenient fact that I can't share my 1999 experience with you. You're always right.

[pickled_heretic]

Yeah we have the convenient fact that I can't share my 1999 experience with you. You're always right.

like i said, i can't know exactly what you experienced, for all i know you actually experienced the exact same overall resist rates for snare and ensnare when cast on equivalent mr/level mobs but your perception was that ensnare resisted less often because of a remote RNG anomaly or because you are comparing across mobs with different resists and levels. meanwhile, to refute that we already know the MR bonus for these spells and they are clearly the same.

it takes a sophisticated intellect to acknowledge the nuanced but important difference between experience and perception, and i am sorry you don't get it.

[Nirgon]

It takes a real genius to look at current Titanium / EQ classic source code and say that's how it has always been.

[pickled_heretic]

It takes a real genius to look at current Titanium / EQ classic source code and say that's how it has always been.

maybe it's not the way it's always been but failing better evidence it's the best we have. any actual evidence such as a mention in the patch notes about snare resists somewhere would be enough to merit further investigation but Story Time with Nirgon is definitely not enough.

[Nirgon]

I think if you're going for how classic elements worked, the best you can go on is Story Time with most of this stuff. That includes memories of the staff as well as the players.

I'm arguing with a guy who is trying to tell me that we're not building an EQ server based on what the community remembers to be classic.

How about the dune tarantulas in North Ro? I saw those on live. They are supposed to be desert tarantulas. I guess if we don't have hard evidence, they should stay dune tarantulas (wrong). What if no one could produce a screen shot of being able to see a player's equipped items even though it was obviously the case you could at least see them after killing them on a pvp server. No screenshot? Not classic! Certainly not worth a look or further consideration, either.

[pickled_heretic]

I think if you're going for how classic elements worked, the best you can go on is Story Time with most of this stuff. That includes memories of the staff as well as the players.

I'm arguing with a guy who is trying to tell me that we're not building an EQ server based on what the community remembers to be classic.

How about the dune tarantulas in North Ro? I saw those on live. They are supposed to be desert tarantulas. I guess if we don't have hard evidence, they should stay dune tarantulas (wrong). What if no one could produce a screen shot of being able to see a player's equipped items even though it was obviously the case you could at least see them after killing them on a pvp server. No screenshot? Not classic! Certainly not worth a look or further consideration, either.

i remember that ogres shot rainbows out of their asses when they jumped. what now?

[Nirgon]

^ idiot, I rest my case.

[pickled_heretic]

^ idiot, I rest my case.

clearly, my memory of ass-rainbow-shooting-ogres is evidence enough to add them to the game in spite of all data to the contrary. so let's add them so we can

Relive the Classic Experience™

[Diggles]

i also remember tome of order and discord being able to be sold for 1k plat

[pickled_heretic]

i also remember tome of order and discord being able to be sold for 1k plat

only on pvp servers though

[Nirgon]

I magically guessed right on Invoke Fear without having any data in front of me. I say the same for snare but I can't possibly be right.

Truth is I remember being on a lvl 19 druid twink I made and snare being resisted constantly on npcs. I asked a mained druid in my guild "what's the problem with this" I was told "snare has a shitty resist rate, ensnare works much better".

So I can be right about invoke fear because whatever you are looking at matches it, but wrong about lvl 1 snare. Heh ok, convenient.

You might also realize I'm not playing red or "out to get druids" for that matter. Suit yourself.

Bonds of force and Atol's shackles had the same problem. I would get *way more resists* on bonds than Atol's. I'm sure whatever you're looking at has them evenly matched.

[Pudge]

If you engage someone that is about 4-6 levels above you he will resist 10 roots in a row with 35 mr and the nukes will land for 5 points of damage (max dmg 60+).

The level difference seems it have a to big impact on how much things land etc.

Enchanter spells seem semi-broken, but i'm not the guy playing the enchanter so i can't speak for him.

ya.. only input i can have so far is at level 10 i HT'd a guy who conned red to me, it landed for 5 points of damage.

[pickled_heretic]

ya.. only input i can have so far is at level 10 i HT'd a guy who conned red to me, it landed for 5 points of damage.

see

wow the qq has really begun already

[Nirgon]

If both players are naked, one is 52 the other is 60... do you think the 60 should only get hit by 5 damage (or scaled equivalent) by spells from the 52? I think player resist rates need a hard look if they haven't been touched yet.

[Crenshinabon]

Level should not effect much about resist. The lvl 10 going against an 18 is already at an unfair disadvantage....

Also if there is 1 thing that will frustrate me off a pvp server its small hitbox. Melee is already pretty gimped and there is no way it was this small on live. Pvping on my lvl 6 ranger against another melee was fkin hilarious and sad at the same time. We both just ran around sidestepping and it was literally almost impossible to land a melee hit. We both just gave up and ran our own ways after about 4 minutes of this.

[pickled_heretic]

If both players are naked, one is 52 the other is 60... do you think the 60 should only get hit by 5 damage (or scaled equivalent) by spells from the 52? I think player resist rates need a hard look if they haven't been touched yet.

of course not, and my point will be lost on most people.

we all have legitimate complaints as long as they are articulated properly, this is a beta after all. i only pointed this specific case out to make a point. perhaps you can at least note the irony of someone who just yesterday accused people of QQing about resists is now complaining about having their HT resisted.

begrudge me my legitimate complaints and i will begrudge you yours.

[Nirgon]

No grudge, all you bro.

[Prahadigm24]

Root seems to be completely useless. It's being resisted like 50% or more by blue enemies who don't have a single piece of resist gear yet - but that is not really the problem. The problem is that even if it sticks, it wears off almost immediately. Pretty often it actually wears off immediately. In its current state, root is completely pointless.

And keep in mind that the low level enemies don't have any notable resistances yet. Resistance gear will make it even worse.

[dusk883]

all the more reason to grab a sword and fight like a man IMO

[pickled_heretic]

No grudge, all you bro.

begrudge, not grudge. they are two distinct words with different meanings.

[pickled_heretic]

all the more reason to grab a sword and fight like a man IMO

i am probably going to be playing a caster of some kind on live and i don't really have a problem with root sucking. i think it's a little weird to have naked blue cons resist as much as they do, though.

[Diggles]

the only problem is root sucks for pcs, but pets can root like nobodies business.

[Masq]

as a 23 ranger I'm literally unable to hit people as long as they strafe around in circles. Snaring/Rooting is not a viable option due to massive resists (I can dump an entire mana bar without landing a single root).

Gnomes are the worst, their hitbox is tiny. I've yet to fight against any of the larger races so I can't comment on that.

[Diggles]

right now, my pet has hit almost every single root he casts against a PC.

I've literally been able to just cast burst of flame on a white con SK until he died.

[Pudge]

i wasn't complaining, only reporting my findings... never argued that it was unreasonable. if you thought so, then maybe it is, but doesn't mean i was QQing

and that is literally the first and only time i casted a spell in pvp :P

[Dalem]

As a 20 pally I rarely am able to land hits on moving targets as well.

[hotstud]

Pet spell resists in general are messed up. I'm playing three mages at once and was able to kill a hill giant at level 16 with a druid kiting it around because my pets nukes were landing nonstop. Even the level 12 fire pet was landing nukes on a hill giant, I mean come on.

[Nirgon]

The pets didnt pull aggro from the druid eh?

[Cwall]

make hitboxes slightly larger imo

[Ripcord]

Playing a druid ive noticed the same shitty rates for pvp snare/root. But whats odd is when it does land (albeit usually for only a few ticks) nukes dont seem to ever brake it. Got a root off and at least 3 nukes while 3 other melee were smacking the guy and he eventually died before root wore off. I think root should land a bit more, but be easier to escape if hit by a nuke, i remember it breaking almost always after a nuke.

On a mob this deff seems the case, on white con mammoths I nuked literally untill i was oom or the mob was dead, root never broke early.

Earth pets forget it, root lands 100% and re-lands before it wears.

Also does snare duration get longer as you get higher level? Even on mobs my lvl 1 snare was lasting only a few ticks at lower levels and seems to be gradually increasing in duration as i get higher. I remember it being an all or nothing spell.

[hotstud]

The pets didnt pull aggro from the druid eh?

No he just chain cast snare to maintain aggro even though it was resisted every time.

[Galacticus]

Some things I have noticed:

Root and snare often resist yet mage pets are pro at rooting constantly.

8/10 of my harmtouches hit for 2 or 3 damage, all the others hit for full.

[Bockscar]

I have noticed that nuke damage leans overwhelmingly towards either full or pitfully little damage. I've yet to land a nuke in the middle of the range, it's always full or like 2 damage.

[pickled_heretic]

the only problem is root sucks for pcs, but pets can root like nobodies business.

oh absolutely. i was just talking about pc roots. the pet roots are definitely working "better than intended."

[mitic]

[LIST]
Root and Snare seem to resist a lot on lower level players (or is it all spells?)


earth pet root sticks quite well tho, please "fix" that. its not like mages have problems to pvp without this "100% root feature"

[Nirgon]

Root and snare should only stick more.

[lethdar]

Upon further testing I agree that the melee hit box needs a slight adjustment.

[Amuk]

Jousting/pvp as a rogue I found it to be buggy, maybe it was the hitbox - but I would run in and be in perfect backstab range, hit it and nothing, no you are too far away, no extra attack, literally nothing happened. I don't know if it was the hit boxes but it felt more like lag, or that the server didn't update that I was at his back or some shit I'm not really sure if other rogues found this.

[Cfullard]

I've fought a lot of people as I slowly grind out spells and such so let me give my info here.

Melee hit-box : Yes this is very, very small right now and you can easily avoid a melee character simply by strafing around them and there's nothing they can do.

Resists vs. Lower levels : This seems very high, and I can generally count on being resisted at least 1 out of every 3 - 4 roots. This is even with a Tashan on them, which seems a bit much.

On the other hand, pets do not seem to have a problem with resists and I can constantly count on getting hit by pet spells (Root, Air, Fire Nuke)

On the other hand, I do not seem to have any problem at all killing off pets or casting spells on them. Roots, Mezz and such always seem to hit on pets rather then players... so, not sure how that will help.

Resists vs. Higher Levels : Good luck even landing a spell on someone higher level then you, you won't do it. I've cast plenty of mezz, roots on people that are yellow to me and it's VERY, VERY rare for one to land. Because of this, you will see a lot of higher levels griefing lower levels simply cause while they can't hit them, they can't be hit either.

[Jessie]

People are resisting my spells about half the time. Those resists are from people with 25 MR. If resists are like this then when we all get 100 MR then nothing is going to land. Sorry casters..

[Null]

Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to more as time goes on.

[Cwall]

resists are seriously fucked btw

impossible to land a single spell on anybody higher level than you

edit: actually i lied i was able to get 1 out of 12 flash of lights to land on someone 2 levels higher than me, and then it faded after 1-2 seconds

[Diggles]

blinds naturally have a messed up resist thing don't they?

[Humerox]

Ya...iirc blinds were always hard to land.

[Cwall]

oh well same thing for root and nukes

never actually got a root to land on him, think i casted it 9 times

[Doors]

Melee damage vs. NPCs is really low even for the current gear standards.

However vs. players as a wizard for example I never miss, and usually hit up decently well for my weapon which is a fucking ******ed bronze dagger.

Root resists constantly on low level targets but rarely does on even cons or DB cons.
Magic based nukes resist an awfully lot as well. Cold / Fire not so much.

Mobs seem to be nailing people also but that could be an AC issue.

[Tarwine]

I'm not sure if the hitbox is too small. It almost seems like hits just get lost in the code sometimes. I've had a couple times my target was stopped, and it didn't let me hit him. I'm not seeing "You are too far from your target" messages or anything either.

[tmoneynegro]

Just make crowd control spells function like EQ live did in this era (was capped at 98%):

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5918/linear1.jpg

[mimixownzall]

I'm really thinking the hitboxes are jacked up when moving... When both are standing there not moving it seems fine, but once you follow someone runing or strafing it goes to shit. I dunno if its the skipping that is causing the hitbox to disappear while it moves or what. I am not a coder by any means. When someone is moving is the problem.

[Aenor]

I got wtfpwned by Dash in qhills yesterday, 11 dru (me) vs I think 11 bard. I cast snare on him 4 times, never got a message that it was resisted, but it never slowed him down. He then interrupted 4-5 gates. I've never failed to channel gate vs. a mage earth pet.

[Lazortag]

Just make crowd control spells function like EQ live did in this era (was capped at 95%):

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5918/linear1.jpg

I don't know if you're trolling or not, but your graph doesn't "cap" at 95%. You'd need a piecewise function for that:

y=x-25 if x <= 120
= 95 if x > 120

Regardless this is clearly a stupid graph. I shouldn't waste my time educating you on the obviousness of this, but firstly, your graph doesn't reward people for having MR above 120, which is by no means classic. In classic (as in any era of Live) you had better resist chances if for example a Bard was pumping you up to 300 MR than if you only had 120, and saying otherwise without solid proof is just idiotic. Granted, you may have had diminishing returns at higher MR (so the difference between having 300 MR and 150 MR is much smaller than the difference between having 150 MR and 0 MR), but your chance to resist with x+1 MR should always be strictly greater than your chance to resist with x MR.

[mimixownzall]

That was classic, though. In fact, I don't think it capped at 95%. MR was always waaaay different than any of the other resists. Verant knew the problems with letting CC land so easily in PVP. They made it really easy for you to resist magic spells.

I think they did it the lazy way by clumping all magic spells together. This fucked over clerics bad but wasn't fixed until much later (well past SoV).

[fistses]

you idiots who had to "run infront of people to hit them" on eq live did the because of LAG/SHITTY INTERNET not because of hit box. learn to fucking play you morons.

[nothsa]

Well if there isn't any messages for resisting snare thats a error, im dash btw. I'm was hitting you with 16% haste on a 22del 6 dam sword that's why you couldn't channel. I didn't have magic resist song up or any magic resist gear.

[pickled_heretic]

relationship between MR and resist should be hyperbolic, e.g. higher MR should approach 100% but never achieve it. technically it's not diminishing returns since the percentage increase of resists at higher levels is applied to a smaller chance to fail your resist check. for example:

going from 0% to 10% resist is the same change (10% increased chance to resist) as going from 90% to 91% resist (also a 10% increased chance to resist).

p.s. a linear relationship for anything is retarded

[Lazortag]

relationship between MR and resist should be hyperbolic, e.g. higher MR should approach 100% but never achieve it. technically it's not diminishing returns since the percentage increase of resists at higher levels is applied to a smaller chance to fail your resist check. for example:

going from 0% to 10% resist is the same change (10% increased chance to resist) as going from 90% to 91% resist (also a 10% increased chance to resist).

p.s. a linear relationship for anything is retarded

This is a good explanation but I doubt a loudmouthed simpleton like wehrmacht is ever going to understand.

[Pescador]

This is definitely anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure other people who played on Sullon or other pvp servers can back me up. Level and gear were far more important than they are here when it comes to resists. Once someone is light blue or green to you, they'd better have 100+ resist or your spells WOULD land almost every time.

Anyone who was ever corpse camped also remembers that when you are naked (ie no resist gear), root / snare would land almost every time from people near your level. If they were a low blue con, you might resist a couple, but if they were high blue / even / yellow, you would almost never resist a snare or a root (or a nuke, for that matter) without gear.

I can't remember exact numbers, but I'm absolutely positive that if a player has no resist gear and no MR buffs, root and snare would almost always land if a player was around your level. If someone was a green con, you could root / snare them reliably unless they had 100+ MR, in which case you can still land them every now and then until resists approach crazy (200+) levels. On my bard, in my high 40's / low 50s, I would run with 200+ MR and most 60s would never land a root on me.

Hope this helps

[Bockscar]

This is definitely anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure other people who played on Sullon or other pvp servers can back me up. Level and gear were far more important than they are here when it comes to resists. Once someone is light blue or green to you, they'd better have 100+ resist or your spells WOULD land almost every time.

Anyone who was ever corpse camped also remembers that when you are naked (ie no resist gear), root / snare would land almost every time from people near your level. If they were a low blue con, you might resist a couple, but if they were high blue / even / yellow, you would almost never resist a snare or a root (or a nuke, for that matter) without gear.

I can't remember exact numbers, but I'm absolutely positive that if a player has no resist gear and no MR buffs, root and snare would almost always land if a player was around your level. If someone was a green con, you could root / snare them reliably unless they had 100+ MR, in which case you can still land them every now and then until resists approach crazy (200+) levels. On my bard, in my high 40's / low 50s, I would run with 200+ MR and most 60s would never land a root on me.

Hope this helps

That sounds about right. The way I remember it, someone without resist gear was basically incapable of resisting spells except for the occasional random resist out of sheer luck. It's the exact same thing as fighting even-con caster mobs with no resist gear on: you should expect every spell to land on you, because the overwhelming majority of the time, they will. Several consecutive resists with 25 in the relevant resist stat was akin to planetary alignment in terms of luck. There's a reason you flat out couldn't PvP without resist gear: everything will land on you, you'd have like 10% chance at most to resist something. Mobs have more than the basic 15/25ish in each resist, and look how consistently you'll land spells on them as long as they aren't higher level than you. Even a mob exactly your level has something like 20% chance to resist at most unless it was buffed by nearby caster mobs, and unless I'm sorely mistaken, mobs almost always have higher resists than a naked unbuffed character does. Casting on a player without resist gear should be like shooting penalties at an open goal: you'll succeed every time except the very rare instance of bad luck.

[dusk883]

Good points above.. the "green" factor meant your MR was usually garbage no matter what it was when it comes to classic. Would have been nice if it did mean more but levels were king in pvp, especially for resistances. Still hoping that everyone actually cons "white" vice telling each other where we are level-wise with green, yellow, red, etc.

[valithteezee]

When this server goes live I think the level gap is going to play a huge role in resists, as it should. Like a couple of you have pointed out, if a player is a green con and you cast snare, they are most likely getting snared. If someone is yellow or above and you try to snare it was increasingly harder to get it to stick with or without high MR on live.

[Xantille]

I'm not sure if the hitbox is too small. It almost seems like hits just get lost in the code sometimes. I've had a couple times my target was stopped, and it didn't let me hit him. I'm not seeing "You are too far from your target" messages or anything either.

This.

[lethdar]

This.

see my post in bugs section pals, figured it out.

[Nirgon]

You definitely have a knack Lethdar.

[Vile]

test moar minions!

[Nirgon]

test moar minions!

Summon more to arena and test gear, too. It really shouldn't be too much to test.

[Nixus]

The only root that has landed on me has come from a mage pet. True story.

[pickled_heretic]

The only root that has landed on me has come from a mage pet. True story.

i griefed an orc group by mezzing the healers during a double pull. the tank in that group was a monk and he went down pretty fast. i tried to root some of the other guys to get them killed but they all resisted so they all escaped :<

[tmoneynegro]

I don't know if you're trolling or not, but your graph doesn't "cap" at 95%.

No shit, that's why I mentioned resist caps at 95%, it's in the patch notes and was later changed to a different number post PoP.




firstly, your graph doesn't reward people for having MR above 120

It doesn't matter what your opinion is on itemization or whatever, the graph shows what crowd control spell resists were like during classic through Velious.



you had better resist chances if for example a Bard was pumping you up to 300 MR than if you only had 120, and saying otherwise without solid proof is just idiotic.

Your blue server commentary isn't relative to a PvP server. Verant knew that letting crowd control spells land completely destroyed many classes like rogue/monk/war so they made it extremely easy to become 95% immune to them.



relationship between MR and resist should be hyperbolic

p.s. a linear relationship for anything is retarded


You use extremely stupid assumptions that every spell should actually land in PvP. They knew many spells were not balanced for PvP so made them extremely easy to resist.

[Harrison]

Halp - Rooted!

[Greenkrak]

Dwarf resists against anything MR based is off the charts.


Cant root or land any MR nukes on them

[Null]

No shit, that's why I mentioned resist caps at 95%, it's in the patch notes and was later changed to a different number post PoP.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is on itemization or whatever, the graph shows what crowd control spell resists were like during classic through Velious.



I would love to see those patch notes.

[tmoneynegro]

I would love to see those patch notes.

Actually got it backwards, it was changed to 95% resist cap during GoD and was 98% before that:

- Spells now have a minimum chance of landing of 5%, up from 2%.

http://www.necrotalk.com/showthread.php?t=2295

[Aenor]

EDIT: I spoke to Dash and he said he got resist messages for all 4-5 of my snares... I had the messages filtered off. I'll try not to noob up the thread any more.

[pickled_heretic]

You use extremely stupid assumptions that every spell should actually land in PvP. They knew many spells were not balanced for PvP so made them extremely easy to resist.

where did I say that? why are you arguing with me? are you trying to defend your shitty graph with the linear resist that caps at about 100 mr? lmao.

[Terpuntine]

Ofuk wehrnoob is back on topic...

[Humerox]

Actually got it backwards, it was changed to 95% resist cap during GoD and was 98% before that:

- Spells now have a minimum chance of landing of 5%, up from 2%.

http://www.necrotalk.com/showthread.php?t=2295

Notice the 50% extended melee range in that patch, boys?

5% minimum does not equal 95% cap, btw....false math. Like the missing dollar riddle. And ya, they actually increased the chances to land with that change.

[lethdar]

Dunno what a 50% increased melee range from 2004 has to do with anything.

[Lazortag]

Your blue server commentary isn't relative to a PvP server. Verant knew that letting crowd control spells land completely destroyed many classes like rogue/monk/war so they made it extremely easy to become 95% immune to them.

You never actually supported this; you need to explain why having 120 MR should give you exactly the same benefit as having 300 MR. That's never how it worked (can you find even one source that supports what you say?). You also never showed why your ridiculous graph is a classically accurate plot of what resists were like (for CC spells or otherwise). No one is saying root just land often at 120 MR, we're just saying you're a complete imbecile if you think that graph represents either how resists were or should be.

[tmoneynegro]

You never actually supported this; you need to explain why having 120 MR should give you exactly the same benefit as having 300 MR.

You're a blue server player and trying to claim you're more knowledgeable on a subject than someone who played a pure melee class from day 1 on Sullon Zek? You have 0 credibility in this thread.

Lethdar even posted an old Safehouse link where some guy parsed crowd control resists during Luclin and it was 87% resist rate with 150MR. The parse was just after a patch that made it easier for spells to land so the resist rate was even higher before that:

"150 MR gets you about 87% resistance to snares according to my last batch of tests."

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7879


I'm 100% positive the resist rate for crowd control was over 90% with 120MR during Velious and prior expansions. My graph is accurate within a 5% margin of error or so.

Link to graph: http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5918/linear1.jpg

Here's some more people who actually played a PvP server:


http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4303/unled1eb.jpg

[Humerox]

Dunno what a 50% increased melee range from 2004 has to do with anything.

They finally got around to freaking fixing the hitbox issues, lol. Took 'em that long to do it.

[Bockscar]

100-120ish MR made you nearly immune to magic-based non-nuke spells that didn't have negative resist modifiers, including anything from snares and roots to mez and stuns. It never made you completely immune, but it was close enough that you didn't have to worry about getting CCed with any regularity if you had the proper resists, although you might still get tashed/maloed and those spells could land if you didn't have a high enough MR to sit at 100+ after debuffs. Anyone who played EQ back then doesn't need a graph, this was an everyday fact of life.

[mimixownzall]

you need to explain why having 120 MR should give you exactly the same benefit as having 300 MR.

Why it should isn't the arguement. That's just the way it was. If you played classic live PVP (up to PoP even) you would know that this was the way it was. This is a classic server. That's the way it was.

[Bockscar]

Having extra high MR would still help against magic-based nukes. Nukes are harder to fully resist than binary effects like snare and stun.

[Humerox]

Personally I'm expecting this server to be better than classic. Things like that needed closer attention, but SOE didn't really give a shit about PvP servers....and that was classic.

[Buhbuh]

I'm kind of with two minds on the resist thing. I used to be totally against changing that classic resist system we all remember from live.

There's cons for both.

Everyone is pretty savvy with EQ at this point, so every known piece of MR gear is going to be camped and utilized by nearly every player that can obtain it.

Although there is no boxing (preventing buff bots), most higher up people don't PvP without first being buffed by their pals or whatever. So in a lot of PvP, players are going to be experiencing some players that have upwards of 200MR, (Shield of the Arcane or Magi, GMR) which presents a unique problem.

Some classes really don't have the same options in resist gear holistically. Being a monk, I remember that all too well. Plate and cloth classes definitely have a lot more options than chain and leather. But casters do need to have a chance.

One thing that bothered me with the TZVZ resist system was the superfluity of debuffs to a large extent. That's a con when those spells become inane in PvP. Most Shaman didn't bother using debuffs of any kind, and some Enchanters (although there were fewer) didn't even mem Tash to get roots or mezzes on even some of the best geared players. This was also directly related to the amount of melee damage produced by even the weakest melee classes (hybrids). Debuffs were risky business when even hybrids hit hard and rarely missed.

With the original EQlive resists, debuffs were much more relevant. People took time to actually cast them.

But that's just food for thought. It's a hard issue. There's a delicate balance. I found being rooted with 190MR in Kunark pretty hard to deal with sometimes, personally. There wasn't a whole lot of jousting going on on that server. It was a "battle of the immobilization," so to speak.

It's pretty clear that immobilization spells (if they land consistently) are either a game changer or flat out ensure that you'll die a good amount of the time. And taking into account the way that the game is built with CR's and such, living means much more than anything else. It's not a WoW situation.

[Bockscar]

I don't see how there can even be any discussion regarding something as crucial as the resist system. Implement it as close to classic as humanly possible. If we start taking liberties with it, we might as well "fix" classes as well, then items, then mobs...

The only thing they should freely change is the ruleset and things that were nerfed/removed in the same general timeframe as this server. Nothing that crosses expansion borders, for instance, and nothing that has a direct influence on the outcome of a fight.

[tmoneynegro]

Well the crowd control resists are pretty common knowledge for how they were, the direct damage resists are more of a mystery for full resists vs partial hits, etc.

The game's original intent for class balance should be shot for when implementing direct damage spells. IE: A wizard should do more DPS than a warrior but be more fragile.

[SearyxTZ]

Hi Null :)