Regarding item loot.

[Papaver]

It has been apparent since the initial launch of EverQuest PvP in general and item loot in particular were neither well thought out, balanced, nor implemented up to the standards the community desired.

So my question to people that desire a red p99 server is, what would alleviate the majority of your concerns regarding item loot?

Just bounce random ideas around here.

For example, what if levels 1-45 were not lootable, but levels 46-50 were (assuming the attacker was also 46+).

Or what about guild based pvp? That is to say, no guildless characters are lootable, but people that are guild tagged are.

Or how about handing in a tome of discord to set an 'item lootable' flag on your character which would change the tint of the text of your name from pink to dark red (in which case, the attacker can only loot an item if they are also flagged as lootable)?

Or a flag for lootable set during the character creation process which cannot be changed later?

Personally I feel that item loot should be across the board for everyone-- with few exemptions like pvp areas in cities and in 'The Arena' itemloot-free (only pure pvp with no risk of losing items), but seeing as so many people feel so strongly against it, your feedback on what negative aspects are the most detrimental to the game at large would be appreciated.

[XiakenjaTZ]

It is a HUGE risk to mele and only a minor risk to casters is one main reason.

[Papaver]

All levels. 1 item at random can be looted. When you are killed you respawn with a buff that prevents items from being looted for say 1 hour. Like a ress sick buff.

This could in some ways be leveraged to the advantage of the person that had died earlier.

How about instead, if player A kills player B and gets an item, any more kills by player A on player B will not yield them an additional item for a full 24 hours. Any kills on player B again in this 24 hour period by player C will not yield an additional item if player A was again involved in the killing of player B?

[rike]

jewelry/range item loot? maybe chest/head too? would be easy to bag all your stuff but would still make it interesting enough imo~

oh and coin obviously

[Vile]

very simple..

either make it item loot or dont imo.

[Rushmore]

Altergate a custom box handled item loot the best way imo

IF you killed someone in pvp you got to loot a non equipped item and all there coin.

So you couldn't touch there gear but anything in bags was at play. So at least you got a pumice or some bone chips. But every once in awhile you caught someone having extra sets of gear on them or an item they got in a dungeon that wasn't wearable by there class.

On a pvp server many will run around with MR sets and PVE sets of gear.

Think about it.

[Yukahwa]

1. Item loot has to be all on or all off. Any system that allows opting in or out will essentially be a non item loot server.

2. If any level range would have item loot disengaged it should be 45-50 these guys are the main group complaining about item loot because they want to wear their fancy items and not worry about dying. I don't think they should be allowed to do that, though.

3. Low levels need to be item lootable. Real lowbies will not have anything to lose. Twinks will have to be more careful when running around killing people. Without item loot at low levels, twinks are a serious menace and there is nothing encouraging others to hunt them.

4. No one would guild if guilding meant item loot and not guilding meant item loot. The person who risks the least is in a position of advantage and as players we will always seek advantage. It will just mean guilds will exist in IRC and vent channels rather than in-game.

5. Flag lootable wouldn't work, just like the guild lootable. Item loot makes -everyones- life harder. If you could be unlootable in an item loot world you would always choose to be unlootable. It has to be forced, and then it adds an exciting challenging and scary element to the game.

6. With item loot engaged, PVP range needs to be tightened up. +-4 levels is appropriate..anything higher means that a player that is not level 50 will be continually dominated by people that have no chance of defeating.

7. No one goes to arena, so yeah it might be a cool way to allow people to PVP without losing items. It also might be exploited, maybe people will bind there to go AFK or something? /shrug. I can't think of any real reason to make any zones "safe" from item loot. Stay in cities near guards and don't mess around. Guard aggro will need to be figured out (im not sure how it works now) it used to be that someone with average faction attacking another normal player near a guard would aggro the guard. Allies could do what they want near ally guards at least when I played.

8. Please remember to think about all of the levels below 50. People who get to level 50 will get there..for a lot of players they will mess around at lower levels for the majority or the entirety of their time.

9. Primary, secondary, range, bagged items and bags should not be lootable. 1 item and all coins. From an RP perspective, imagine bags are stashes where items are kept like in a hole or in a bush or something. Who carries 8 backpacks?

10. Wearing good items is a strategic risk. If you don't wear good stuff you are weaker, if you wear good stuff you are much stronger but also taking a risk. Item loot balances twinks / super uber dudes with the normal guys because a super geared player can be viewed as a raid mob worth trying to defeat for all the good loot.

11. Naked casters are easy to kill. This argument against item loot is unfounded. Get some right click root webs from permafrost. Classes are not balanced. A twink melee will dominate a normal caster. A naked mage will probably be better than a naked melee.. it works out. If in game resists make any sense at all it wont be too hard for a melee to gear enough resist gear to be on equal footing with casters. At level 4 a mage will probably kill a warrior. Oh no. You lost a piece of leather armor. No reason to ruin the entire server experience for this.

[Prahadigm24]

I think the "pick 1 item from all of the victim's containers" rule would work best. It's a very good compromise.

[Rushmore]

I think the "pick 1 item from all of the victim's containers" rule would work best. It's a very good compromise.

This is what I said. But yes this is a good mix in the middle.

believe me there will be plenty of good loots in peoples bags.

[greatdane]

I am against any form of itemloot where your worn equipment can be looted. I think we're better off without it altogether. If someone can't enjoy PvP without taking other people's gear, they aren't the kind of player who contributes to a healthy server. I could live with something like looting from inventory/bags only, but then what's the point, that'll just screw over classes that rely heavily on spell components. If victory in PvP and the rights to whatever content you've chased the opponent out of isn't enough, maybe a system like the signature thing I posted about. Everquest is too much about character development and the long-term rewards of heavy time investment for traditional itemloot to be popular with the majority. As you can see in every discussion, there are considerably more against than for it.

[Amuk]

Item loot sucks, leave it in or take it out I won't make a huge long post about why it's retarded. If you don't believe it you'll see for yourself after having it enabled for awhile.

[Not_Kazowi]

item loot will ruin the server. please dont

[Yukahwa]

I think bags need to be off limits. It would just mean that people need to go back and forth to the bank all the time, more of a hassle than anything. Again, think about bags as secret stashes rather than 8 backpacks thrown over your 60 STR high elfs back ; )

Unlootable bags means people need to gamble their gear by wearing it. If they try to bag it and die they lose big time and everyone gets a laugh. What is so bad about being able to bag? If player bags, he isn't using that piece to fight you so it makes no difference. As long as people aren't allowed to hack and use bagging macros.

[Rushmore]

if item loot is in the game you just get shittier pvp. People will fight less often. They won't take chances. And you will have a lot of naked pvp.

So if your going to have item loot in game I think being able to loot a non equipped item is a good substitute.

[XiakenjaTZ]

no item loot, keep it simple

edit: i will be a caster

[SearyxTZ]

ok now serious no-troll reply to Holy Priest Papaver, Servant of Emperor Jesus Rogean

It has been apparent since the initial launch of EverQuest PvP in general and item loot in particular were neither well thought out, balanced, nor implemented up to the standards the community desired.

So my question to people that desire a red p99 server is, what would alleviate the majority of your concerns regarding item loot?

Just bounce random ideas around here.

For example, what if levels 1-45 were not lootable, but levels 46-50 were (assuming the attacker was also 46+).

Or what about guild based pvp? That is to say, no guildless characters are lootable, but people that are guild tagged are.

Or how about handing in a tome of discord to set an 'item lootable' flag on your character which would change the tint of the text of your name from pink to dark red (in which case, the attacker can only loot an item if they are also flagged as lootable)?

Or a flag for lootable set during the character creation process which cannot be changed later?

Personally I feel that item loot should be across the board for everyone-- with few exemptions like pvp areas in cities and in 'The Arena' itemloot-free (only pure pvp with no risk of losing items), but seeing as so many people feel so strongly against it, your feedback on what negative aspects are the most detrimental to the game at large would be appreciated.

So.... I've thought about this way too much. Both as a player and as a guy doing a crappy job of running a PvP server.


I LOVE item loot personally. I loved permadeath with full item loot.

Not everyone does though, and you need to be concerned about your population here. The reason for this is that it's just flat-out too punishing for some people. Too hardcore. Especially for melee classes in the classic era, who get royally fucked 9 times out of 10 for the first few months of classic no matter how good the player is.

The book opt-in item loot? Yeah, that might work. But what if someone who isn't tagged for it does work on you, then another tagged player jumps in for the killshot (and item)? It would still work, but you have to consider scenarios like that.

Here's a better idea that I wanted to implement on VZTZ: more NO DROP items. For melee in particular. As in "I could actually get a set of respectable NO DROP gear for most of my slots, as a melee class. It wouldn't be as good as the droppable stuff I wear in PvE, but I could get by with it".

Right?

The added bonus to this is that it incentivizes players to get that extra PvP set of gear -- giving players more to do and keeping people playing longer.

I see no flaws with this really and I think it's something Verant would have done back in 1999/2000 if they had paid any mind whatsoever to their red servers. Going to coin loot was just the lazy easy solution for them.

[XiakenjaTZ]

You would kill trade if a bunch of stuff was made no drop

[greatdane]

Twinks will have to be more careful when running around killing people. Without item loot at low levels, twinks are a serious menace and there is nothing encouraging others to hunt them.

I just don't thinking twinks will be that big of a deal here. It never was at any time while I played on VZTZ - if it was before or after I did, none of the VZTZers have complained about it. Twinks were a live server thing where the enormous population meant a twink could always find loads of people to gank, and because the gameplay later on became kinda drab and people made twinks to get kind of the classic PvP feeling back. Especially before Kunark, without insane weapons and regen items, twinks won't even be that hugely superior - it doesn't take long before weapons like exe axe become almost free, and most of the resist gear except for diamond jewelry is really easy to get once people are farming lguk and such. It's also possible that twinks will become an even bigger problem with itemloot because it'll appeal so much to griefers. It's not hard to bag your good gear on the very rare occasion that your twink is about to die.

[nilbog]

Deleted the troll posts.

This isn't rants and flames. I'll ban people according to rules if it continues.

Those providing insightful responses, great.

[Amuk]

Avoiding ban maybe this was a troll.

[Billbike]

Item loot will force the population to roll casters for low risk pvp.
Iv never enjoyed playing a caster, I shouldn't have to just to compete because of a biased system.

[greatdane]

Here's a better idea that I wanted to implement on VZTZ: more NO DROP items. For melee in particular. As in "I could actually get a set of respectable NO DROP gear for most of my slots, as a melee class. It wouldn't be as good as the droppable stuff I wear in PvE, but I could get by with it".

My concern with that is that it might alienate those looking for the classic aspect of it. Adding in significant custom content like new gear will change gameplay a lot. It'll also take a good deal of work by the devs, and I'm pretty sure people are ready to kill for red99 as soon as possible :P

[SearyxTZ]

Deleted the troll posts.

This isn't rants and flames. I'll ban people according to rules if it continues.

Those providing insightful responses, great.

I get that there are rules to be followed, but it's the PvP forum.

People are going to talk trash. Rexx Knuckle and I have been shit talking eachother since the dawn of time =/

[nilbog]

I get that there are rules to be followed, but it's the PvP forum.

People are going to talk trash. Rexx Knuckle and I have been shit talking eachother since the dawn of time =/

Really? I'm aware what forum it is in. Post 'trash' in PvP rants and flames, or don't post at all. That's why it's there.

[SearyxTZ]

My concern with that is that it might alienate those looking for the classic aspect of it. Adding in significant custom content like new gear will change gameplay a lot. It'll also take a good deal of work by the devs, and I'm pretty sure people are ready to kill for red99 as soon as possible :P

Wouldn't have to be custom beyond tagging existing items with NO DROP

But it would take some work yeah

[gloinz]

Wouldn't have to be custom beyond tagging existing items with NO DROP

But it would take some work yeah

this is a horrible idea and defeats purpose of item loot imo

[boss]

item loot wont be in anyways, no need to discuss. peeps to skurred

[SearyxTZ]

Really? I'm aware what forum it is in. Post 'trash' in PvP rants and flames, or don't post at all. That's why it's there.

shrug. you call em how you see em boss

If you want to enforce it that way, then I'll play by the rules and rein it in. It's your forums. But to be candid, I don't think trying to separate the "trash" into a subforum will work that easily on red.

Competitive trash talk = cornerstone of every "PvP general discussion" EQ forum I've ever posted on. Once the heads start rolling on the live server, the rage and trolling will be in here anyway. That is general discussion for red players. Nobody gives a shit about whether rangers are good in PvE, or whatever happy garbage is in the blue server chat currently.

[Not_Kazowi]

nilbog - good healthy competition fuels a good pvp server.


Item loot is not viable on a emu population, please do not put it in. It did not work out too well on VZTZ both times, its too exploitable and hard core for a good healthy server population.

[SearyxTZ]

this is a horrible idea and defeats purpose of item loot imo

Fine PVP CHAMP but I disagree that it defeats the purpose. It just lessens the impact (for melee in particular), which I think is the primary complaint anyone needs to address with item loot. You still get your item loot but it doesn't force melees to run around in full indicolite while casters are ganking naked.

Doubt it will be implemented anyway so this is probably a moot point

[greatdane]

your feedback on what negative aspects are the most detrimental to the game at large would be appreciated.

Since you specifically asked for it, I'll put it up in a more in-depth manner than the usual "itemloot sucks" posts.

Itemloot has the following POSITIVE consequences:

- The outcome of a PvP fight becomes more exciting. There's no denying that it matters more who loses the fight if they also lose their best piece of gear in the process. This is the kind of cutthroat environment that some prefer for a PvP server. It has its merits, I'm not so naïve as to claim that itemloot has no positive aspects at all.

- It promotes server longevity in theory because you're never quite "fully geared" when you could lose some of it at any moment. I'd say that this is only a theory because much of the best gear is no-drop, especially in Kunark and absolutely in Velious. Nevertheless, itemloot does mean that you're never just finished with nothing else to accomplish since you can lose that gear, at least pre-Kunark where many of the best pieces are droppable. It's more of a theory than a solid fact, though, for the reasons mentioned and because people don't typically lose interest in EQ just because they have the best gear. Especially on a PvP server. Since blue99 is still hugely popular, longevity isn't one of my concerns.

- Some claim that it prevents twinks, but I'm skeptical. I never even really saw any twinks on VZTZ, and it's just as possible that itemloot will tempt people to grief newbies even harder. I belive twinks are a live server phenomenon where the huge playerbases made it viable to run around preying exclusively on low-levels, and it only became a real problem much later when the actual game became so boring and the itemization allowed you to make godlike twinks that couldn't be touched at all. Kind of a baseless claim because there hasn't been itemloot anywhere at a point in time where supertwinks were possible (except for RZ where most people were against PvP - go figure).

Itemloot has the following NEGATIVE consequences:

- It vastly widens the already wide gap between melee and caster. You can't safely wear your gear in PvP when it can be looted, especially as a melee class who probably dies more than they win. Melees get brutally shit on all the way up until endgame gear, with or without itemloot, but much moreso with. This results not only in far more caster players, making for a lopsided and annoying gameplay environment, but also in even more domination by those casters. Playing a weak PvP class becomes almost impossible for anyone who isn't in one of the inevitable überguilds.

- It encourages naked PvPing. Some classes are barely affected by playing naked while others cannot play at all without gear, and we all know that a naked caster still often has an advantage over a geared melee. When you can play naked and not risk losing anything yourself while still looting other people's gear, that's what many will do. Naked PvP is just stupid. It also just makes people stop fighting back so they can frantically cram their loot into bags once the fight starts going badly, and this often makes for less interesting fights even if the theory says that itemloot makes it more exciting.

- It makes the game too fierce for the casual players and the off-peak players. As a European, I am very aware of how difficult it can be to play the game when the online numbers are 25% of what you US players enjoy during peak hours. Casual players will find it very difficult to get into the game or to get any real enjoyment out of it when more dedicated players routinely prey on them and keep them down. Everquest is already tough for casual players, and itemloot only makes that much worse.

- The game isn't designed for it at all. Everquest has all the traditional core properties of an MMORPG: the primary incentive is the long-term rewards for the time you invest, the slow but satisfying accumulation of assets (mainly gear, but also levels and other accomplishments like friends and reputation which become increasingly harder to maintain the more ruthless the PvP environment is). Itemloot can provide a more exciting PvP scenery, but the actual Everquest gameplay suffers hugely, and that gameplay is what actually keeps people playing month after month - the standard draw of any MMORPG. The prospect of losing the main reward of the game at any time and in any number of lousy ways is in such stark conflict with what the game itself is about that it deters many.

- It only enhances the advantage of the elite. Those who are fully raid-geared in awesome no-drop items have enough of an advantage in PvP without the fact that their gear is completely safe and they're free to pick and choose from the smorgesbord of easy kills on anyone below them. There is no comparable no-drop gear for non-raiders, and part of the appeal of a PvP server is that to join the top guild and spend 5 hours a night raiding is not the only way to be someone. Since Everquest is a game that automatically makes raiders much better off than non-raiders and often makes it pointless to even try to fight against them if you're not one of them, giving them even more benefits can only result in an even more lopsided server.

- It simply makes the server really unpleasant. SZ and VZTZ (the emu) were already rather abrasive communities, and an itemloot emu will most likely be much worse. Some are fine with this, but the bulk of p99's community consists of people who just like the nostalgia of classic and might miss the PvP as well. Catering to the minority of hardcores at the expense of the majority is an unwise move. Itemloot is an enormous encouragement to griefing, hacking, harassing, bitching and a volatile community. PvP itself will already ensure a pretty spicy atmosphere around here, and you've seen how many chose to cheat on a freaking bluebie server.

- Finally, but most importantly by far, the majority is against itemloot. It's obvious, whether you look back at the history of the game, the various attempts at re-introducing itemloot on emus, or the discussions on this forum (one flawed, manipulated poll aside), it is a visible fact that more are against than for itemloot and that it has literally always been a failure and eventually removed (and never attempted again by any MMORPG). That alone should mean more than anything else. The majority has spoken, and if the developers decide to introduce itemloot anyway, they do so against the most fundamental notion of democracy. Laugh at the wording if you want, but that's what it is.

TL;DR: if you don't read long posts, this post isn't aimed at you. It's feedback for the devs, as they requested. Move along.

[Rushmore]

good post

[SearyxTZ]

TLDR of that = item loot = naked casters ganking geared melees gg

[Yukahwa]

Vztz servers never ran into twinks because they didn't last long enough. This server has the potential to be actually good..and that means it can sustain item loot. A warrior isn't going to win any pvp encounters vs casters while wearing crafted that he couldn't win wearing bronze. The naked pvp experience is a dumb argument.

We are all here because we like ever quest not typical panzy weak mmos. Real pvp with loot will be a good challenge for bluebies who have beat eq already. Without item loot pvp is just pve plus some more random interruptions to pve. No benefits..just inconvenience.

[XiakenjaTZ]

I like no item loot best....

Best other option is loot anything not equipped including stuff in bags.

It would suck to lose say a manastone or something though. And I would not be carrying around situational resist gear.

[Amuk]

Crafted vs Bronze you're clearly a high end player.

Most melee will wear resist gear not to be locked down, such as mithril arms/legs, tranix crown if theyre lucky - thatd be a fun one to lose, golden wolfseye bracers, etc etc - none of said items will stop a shaman from one shotting the rogue with ebolt, or at least ebolt+ maybe a VOS/and or pet dmg.

Most oldworld resist gear will help your MR and make you mobile, which makes you viable. A spell casters can be basically naked and still rape your shit up. In grp pvp with healers and shit it may make sense to wear your gear, but for the other 80% of the time it'll be naked caster gank squad.

[SearyxTZ]

Also one thing I never liked about item loot: bagging.


Speed-bagging your items is possibly the dumbest and most nonsensical game mechanic ever

[greatdane]

Yeah, well, itemloot causes retarded things like that to happen.

[XiakenjaTZ]

I hate bagging too. What i mean though is allow looting from bags, just not stuff equipped.

But once again, NO ITEM LOOT IS BEST.

[Billbike]

Vztz servers never ran into twinks because they didn't last long enough. This server has the potential to be actually good..and that means it can sustain item loot. A warrior isn't going to win any pvp encounters vs casters while wearing crafted that he couldn't win wearing bronze. The naked pvp experience is a dumb argument.

We are all here because we like ever quest not typical panzy weak mmos. Real pvp with loot will be a good challenge for bluebies who have beat eq already. Without item loot pvp is just pve plus some more random deaths. No benefits..just inconvenience.

The VZTZ servers lasted quite a long time, and remember that exp was faster also. Plenty of time for twinks to evolve, but they didn't. Why? Because it was classic.

Tell me Yukakwa, what class and what gear would you say was an unkillable twink during classic?

I don't think you have ever played pvp. If you had, you would know where itemloot leads.

[Civeal]

i like to idea of having worn item untouchable, and the rest fair game.

[Vile]

If they gonna put in item loot let us open the bags.

Again, after that its either item loot or no item.. no crazy rules.

[Tombom]

i like to idea of having worn item untouchable, and the rest fair game.

Honestly this could be fun, melee don't have to skimp on gear for pvp and everyone risks whatever they choose to bring into battle, at the very least you get to coin some body and grab some pumice on the fly.

Would add a lot of excitement to item drops in dungeons, best go bank that yak for your guildy before someone comes and wipes you

[Mardur]

From IRC:

1 unequipped item lootable (from bags etc).
Level 1 chars pvp exempt within cities only (for trade).

[greatdane]

It's still gonna suck for melees because you can't really PvE in resist gear, but it's better than real itemloot if there apparently has to be some form of itemloot at all. Don't think it's a good idea, but it isn't unplayable either.

Thoughts on shared bank since trading with your main char will be pretty much impossible?

[Mardur]

It's fucking classic, of course you can PVE in resist gear.

[Rushmore]

It's still gonna suck for melees because you can't really PvE in resist gear, but it's better than real itemloot if there apparently has to be some form of itemloot at all. Don't think it's a good idea, but it isn't unplayable either.

Thoughts on shared bank since trading will be so annoying when it can only really be done on level 1s in cities?

yeah its just a good compromise for both parties though.

[Mardur]

Plus, if you need "PVE gear" just make sure it's no-drop.

[Clownface]

No item loot.

[Yukahwa]

Billbike I played on rallos zek but started there in the middle of kunark and quit when POP came out. You're point about invincible twinks in classic is totally accurate.

In classic, twinking isn't as much of an issue. Item power skyrockets with kunark and continues with velious. My experience with twinks come from kunark and velious era so there is no point in describing a typical twink of various budgets. I will say that it was fun to try and kill them. Without item loot all I would do is avoid them, unless I was leveling up my own twink when I ran into this player and thought I'd have a face off even though it meant slowing down my own leveling process to get to the real part of the game.

Item loot didn't lead anywhere crrRaazyYyy like people keep imagining.

With item loot every level range has challengers worth facing for anyone interested in doing it. Without item loot the only goal is to get through your levels with as little resistance as possible, hit 50, and start actually playing the game, acquiring good gear and killing people that try to take your camps. Level 1-49 is just a job to finish as fast as you can.

Guy about crafted - I was using crafted as an example of gear that some anti-item loot girlyman would want to wear without losing it when he dies in PVP combat "I love its pale blue look". Someone with resist gear on would be risking that gear in PVP combat but with 100mr the caster is probably going to get pooped on by a melee worth his weight in anything. A naked caster will die ridiculously quickly. Grab a couple wooly spider root clickable nets and the caster is a dead man. Stop imagining boogymen casters that can't be hurt because they are so OP. gee. Of course the main factor in all of this will be how resists are handled.

[Tombom]

Its not the boogie man, it's a short little white haired fuck with a red shirt and brown overalls, and a pocket full of malchites. And he is stealin your hard earned lewtz without risking any of his. Classic is not balanced in any way melees need gear to compete with casters, casters do not need it to compete with melee, melee will lose gear in said competition and become even less effective... it just makes sense.

Honestly it is not gamebreaking for me either way, but I just don't get how people don't see this.

[Yukahwa]

Tombom in those situations you just gotta bag it. Melee's have a harder life, since its been over 10 years since EQ was released you know what you are getting into by playing a melee.

Item loot or not doesn't fix balance. Wear bronze or banded until you get 100mr and then stupid mage root wont land and then he dies in very few hits. But don't think i'm telling you it is fair at all. You're totally right. If you want low level PK easy mode then you definitely want to be a mage.

If you want to be cool, just be careful and put your stuff in bags if you need to.

[Yukahwa]

Nothing stops people from killing their own race.

[gloinz]

i like the whole looting anything that isn't equipped compromise

its not gonna scare anyone off the server, and its definitely a good reward for killing ppl

though it would be tough for us pvp champs to properly take advantage of this mechanic since wiping a whole group 1v6 we wouldn't be able to carry all their bags of crap

[utenan]

Altergate a custom box handled item loot the best way imo

IF you killed someone in pvp you got to loot a non equipped item and all there coin.

So you couldn't touch there gear but anything in bags was at play. So at least you got a pumice or some bone chips. But every once in awhile you caught someone having extra sets of gear on them or an item they got in a dungeon that wasn't wearable by there class.

On a pvp server many will run around with MR sets and PVE sets of gear.

Think about it.

I have always wanted to play classic pvp with this rule. You don't have to worry about your hard earned gear yet there is plenty of incentive to kill people.

[Yukahwa]

I'll be honest and say that choosing 1 non equipped item is the best compromise I've seen so far, but it doesn't balance the well geared Vs the poorly geared as well as normal item loot does. There is still not risk when you wear top notch stuff which is pretty lame, and anyone out hunting for people on the grind will definitely not have anything in their inventory worth stealing unless they just freshly killed your bro ;)

[Amuk]

Yeah if you go pvp in guk you'll still get a chance at some bagged item that dropped off their camp etc, I like it.

[rike]

no punishment for wearing the best gear you've got doesn't sit well with me =C!

[SearyxTZ]

Agreed I think it's actually a great compromise.

[Not_Kazowi]

vztz did its best without item loot, just such a stupid implementation. I will play regardless but there is a reason vztz wasnt item loot for its entire duration

[Yukahwa]

no punishment for wearing the best gear you've got doesn't sit well with me =C!

I feel the same way. I think the server should start with regular item loot.

If somehow there are problems that are really serious (i dont think there will be) then it can degrade to 1 non equipped item loot since this is the only compromise that still sort-of works and should be easy to implement.

Really though I think normal item loot makes more sense.

[Not_Kazowi]

just make it coin and exp loss

[Palemoon]

The only benefit to allowing old style item loot, is to put a damper on the lvl 12 super twink syndrome.

As someone who played red EQ from beta4 onwards, i'd go with just coin loot. But the idea of a random inventory item being looted is intriguing and won't punish non casters more then casters.

I think zone control/spawn control is reason enough to encourage pvp.

Coin loot is a must though.

[Rushmore]

People want Item loot.

People don't want Item loot.

Meet in the middle bros.

[Vile]

People want Item loot.

People don't want Item loot.

Meet in the middle bros.

What does Jesus want?

[Bockscar]

Thou shalt not steal. Blessed are the meek.

[Rushmore]

What does Jesus want?

don't be jelly bro.

[Vile]

don't be jelly bro.

I am serious man.

[Rushmore]

I am serious man.

ask him.

[Billbike]

Ok fine with itemloot. Its not like majority opinion makes a difference. Buff melees please. Seriously not trolling, make melees better.

[Bockscar]

Melees are ok. With decent gear, a melee will do alright in PvP and is often better for dungeon PvP than casters, and dungeon PvP is what really matters in the long run. What do high-end guilds rely most heavily on? Melee assist trains. A big concern for serious PvP guilds is if too many of their members roll easymode instant-gratification mage and necro so that they lose the important dungeon fights against other guilds who didn't make that mistake. Since a lot of PvP takes place outdoors because it's more convenient and is where you typically meet people alone, casters are in their dominant environment more often than melees are. Both archetypes still have an environment where they're superior, though. Regardless, there will be no buffs to melees, I can pretty much guarantee that. They don't change the core game mechanics for the sake of PvP, just the ruleset and the odd broken peripheral thing that doesn't change the gameplay fundamentals. Itemloot is usually bad for any server, but at least it's just bagloot and not your worn equipment. Melees will be allowed to participate in PvP.

[Aenor]

Your feedback on what negative aspects are the most detrimental to the game at large would be appreciated.

What's most detrimental to the game is how this affects long term population. Once you have a level 50 on the server it's easy to farm gear, including no drop gear, to twink out lower level toons. Some players won't find out about this server until months down the road, and I don't want them to be discouraged from joining the server because they feel they have no chance to compete against all the de-leveled twinks in planar gear who are going to jack their newbie tunic.

[Pudge]

It has been apparent since the initial launch of EverQuest PvP in general and item loot in particular were neither well thought out, balanced, nor implemented up to the standards the community desired.

So my question to people that desire a red p99 server is, what would alleviate the majority of your concerns regarding item loot?

Just bounce random ideas around here.

For example, what if levels 1-45 were not lootable, but levels 46-50 were (assuming the attacker was also 46+).

Or what about guild based pvp? That is to say, no guildless characters are lootable, but people that are guild tagged are.

Or how about handing in a tome of discord to set an 'item lootable' flag on your character which would change the tint of the text of your name from pink to dark red (in which case, the attacker can only loot an item if they are also flagged as lootable)?

Or a flag for lootable set during the character creation process which cannot be changed later?

Personally I feel that item loot should be across the board for everyone-- with few exemptions like pvp areas in cities and in 'The Arena' itemloot-free (only pure pvp with no risk of losing items), but seeing as so many people feel so strongly against it, your feedback on what negative aspects are the most detrimental to the game at large would be appreciated.

i know the itemloot thread is long to read, but basically the sentiment is:

coin loot = definitely

item loot = majority strongly against it, minority strongly for it

the only way i can see itemloot working is if it is very limited.. like, "non-lore items only" or "bagged loot only" (inventory slots also non-lootable, so ppl could choose to sacrifice an entire bag worth of gear to carry 1 non-lootable item unequipped)

in general, 0 item loot is the way to go. but i see why a compromise could be fun, as long as there is very little QQ potential (BTW, manastones arent lore are they..?) to answer specific questions:

1) lower levels non-lootable? better but.. still, when you get to camp good items is 50+, so that is when losing an item matters most. the opposite sounds even better.. levels 1-45 lootable, levels 45+ non-lootable. this would prevent twink PKs from ruling the lower levels.

2+3) flagged item loot wouldnt work. smart ppl would never flag themselves as lootable, it is much more valuable to be able to wear you gear than the chance at ganking someone's FBSS. especially in raid pvp, the important thing is winning, not being able to loot someone's shit. groups will roll out with 1 "loot-flagged" player, trying to get this guy the killshot so he can loot. flagging that shit just wont work. even if it will placate the pro-item-looters, it will not result in long sustainable gameplay for the server

4) negative feedback in general: itemloot promotes random ganking by groupmates (temporary "friends" until you are low health) increases fear of pvp and any unknown player in general, requires ppl to run and bag gear instead of fight against the odds, encourages corpse camping, gives an advantage to insta-bagging MQers, and makes the server environment more hostile than most ppl want to play in. ppl want to wear their gear, not run around fearing their gear they camped for 25 hours camp will be ganked at any moment.

hard-core players will play with itemloot in or out. but you will lose many, many ppl with itemloot in, unless item loot is somehow severely restricted. (like, "bagged-non-lore-items-only" restricted..) just look at VZTZ, the population while item loot was in was like 1/3 of what it was when there was no item loot

if i were devs and i really wanted to put itemloot in, i would limited it to the above; BAGGED (which means IN A BAG, not just sitting in an inventory slot) non-lore items only.

[Galacticus]

ITEM LOOT IN BAGS

[Ziggy]

Altergate a custom box handled item loot the best way imo

IF you killed someone in pvp you got to loot a non equipped item and all there coin.

So you couldn't touch there gear but anything in bags was at play. So at least you got a pumice or some bone chips. But every once in awhile you caught someone having extra sets of gear on them or an item they got in a dungeon that wasn't wearable by there class.

On a pvp server many will run around with MR sets and PVE sets of gear.

Think about it.

This is the best solution proposed so far. If we are to do item loot then this system warrants serious consideration.
I would like to add that no matter what, coin should ALWAYS be lootable.

[Galacticus]

This is the best solution proposed so far. If we are to do item loot then this system warrants serious consideration.
I would like to add that no matter what, coin should ALWAYS be lootable.

I would be cool with this.

[Musori]

Item loot where you get to pick anything equpied except for primary/secondary + range. Allso anyone should be able to loot.. so if you get killed a group member or a friend could loot your corpse and "hold" an item for ya =)
That is taking ninjalooting to a new lvl!

Ninjas ftw!

[SaveTheSack]

I'm for coin/bag loot, if that means anything.

I wouldn't mind item loot, but I can tell that 95% of people are against it and that would hurt the population of the server.

The only reason why I'm not 'for' item loot would be bagging and naked pvp. Additionally, the only compromise that I see working would be bag loot. The main plus is that no one will carry around extra sets of MR gear.

Coin alone seems a little too easy.

[Prahadigm24]

The main plus is that no one will carry around extra sets of MR gear.

Coin alone seems a little too easy.

I think so, too. It's a large plus and on top of that it will save us from the lame "bagging" process.

Everybody would have to decide whether they want to carry extra gear, which grants more power and flexibility, but includes a higher risk. You would also be able to grab stuff that a player just camped and cannot equip, or some valuable gems (e.g. gargoyle eyes while you're low level, or a diamond at higher levels). People will also have to decide whether they want to stay at their camp forever - and risk to have one nice item taken from them - or give their camp up earlier and save the loot.

This system would make it attractive to gank people directly at the bank though, that's why the bank areas would have to be really, really safe. If not, I can see people standing on some place the guards cannot attack them and nuke your ass directly in front of the banker.

[Sniperfire]

very simple..

either make it item loot or dont imo.


this^^, you have heard all the sides of this argument for months make a decision. i personally think item loot will benefit veteran players more than new to pvpers and will hurt the growth of the server. i also think if you put it in it will be changed shortly upon release. but like i said we have all typed all this nonsense before

[canardvc]

The main plus is that no one will carry around extra sets of MR gear.

Coin alone seems a little too easy.
I second that : Loot 1 item from bags, nothing from worn equipment. Sounds to be satisfying both those who want item loot and those who don't want to see their worn stuff gone on PvP death

[Nanjiro]

Altergate a custom box handled item loot the best way imo

IF you killed someone in pvp you got to loot a non equipped item and all there coin.

So you couldn't touch there gear but anything in bags was at play. So at least you got a pumice or some bone chips. But every once in awhile you caught someone having extra sets of gear on them or an item they got in a dungeon that wasn't wearable by there class.

On a pvp server many will run around with MR sets and PVE sets of gear.

Think about it.

Best suggestion up to now IMO.

[XiakenjaTZ]

especially if pvp is active on level 1s and no shared banks this will really put a hurt on trades.

edit: if I had to guess I would think 99% of trades would be message board based and that kind of sucks.

[Tajin]

especially if pvp is active on level 1s and no shared banks this will really put a hurt on trades.

edit: if I had to guess I would think 99% of trades would be message board based and that kind of sucks.

never assume

[Musori]

Not to sound like a blueberry but i could extend with only being able to loot jewlery, (ears, neck, face, rings) Where 80% of all the hp/resistgear is at. And maby add bracers, waist, back + shoulder along aswell =)

So "Armor" + weps go safe.

[Lazortag]

If there's going to be item loot I'd rather not have a super complicated system in place, even though I don't personally prefer item loot, I'd take item loot over "opt-in item loot".

[Prahadigm24]

especially if pvp is active on level 1s and no shared banks this will really put a hurt on trades.

edit: if I had to guess I would think 99% of trades would be message board based and that kind of sucks.

True. But you could pacify the Kelethin, Freeport, Neriak etc. bank areas (personally I think you should be safe in the whole town area, but I guess the hardcore PvPers want to gank people within towns as well). People could trade in these areas.

@Rushmore: How did they handle this problem on the Altergate custom box? This seems to be the most appealing item loot rule to me and a few others.

[Lasher]

bag/inventory item loot can kind of screw over the few classes that routinly chang their weapons. bard with weapons and instruments and warrior with 1hnders and 2hnders.

Some classes easily go with out ever needing to change weapons. I dont know if it can be done but if this type of item loot is going in i would say have a special bag that has like 2 slots so there be can be 2 items you can protect

[Nirgon]

VZTZ never worked out well. Item loot is going to help with most of the people who make level range specific twinks decked out in gear. Worse, players will just be running around in full resist gear when they get it. Good luck fighting any of these guys for planar/dragon spawns once they get their gear advantage. If you fix stupid things like whirl and root landing on 150magic resist 50% of the time there wont be as much complaining about item loot.

Thx.

[Nirgon]

I second that : Loot 1 item from bags, nothing from worn equipment. Sounds to be satisfying both those who want item loot and those who don't want to see their worn stuff gone on PvP death

Sounds like looting a warrior 2hander out of his bags while he's xping.

[Yukahwa]

Yeah. The more I think about it the more I think that the whole loot 1 non equipped item is a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Normal item loot. If in 8 months its a problem it can be re evaluated.

[Rushmore]

True. But you could pacify the Kelethin, Freeport, Neriak etc. bank areas (personally I think you should be safe in the whole town area, but I guess the hardcore PvPers want to gank people within towns as well). People could trade in these areas.

@Rushmore: How did they handle this problem on the Altergate custom box? This seems to be the most appealing item loot rule to me and a few others.

Rogean has already stated Level 1's in cities are safe to PVP. So trading in cities on level 1 mules is safe bros. Level 1's outside the city are open to PVP!
YES PVP is open starting at level 1.

Prahadigm: On Altergate if you died anything un-equipped that wasn't no drop was up for grabs. Most times you at least got something like a pumice which was cool. It was team base though. One time someone on the good side had camped the best weapon in the game on a shaman and forgot to bank it. He went out pvping and got ganked. The guy looted his sword and equipped it right away. =D

Again, I am against any form of pvp loot but the dev's are leaning towards it pretty hard pals. This is the best compromise. I would like to see some system implemented where you can buy your way to making an item no drop (maybe a ton of pp) or something protected like 2 slots like Lasher said. An Sk will 2H all the time where as a War is going to switch between 2h and 1h's.

Or even a manastone .... EEK!
Guess you will have to equip the manastone in the primary hand!?!?

I think there are some good compromises for every situation. We just need to be vocal and work together pals to work them out.

[Nirgon]

I had to use a mana stone in my off hand. Cry more.

You guys will be singing a different tune when you get out numbered/poopsocked and beat to dragon haste/bd/diamond gear.

[Rushmore]

Yeah. The more I think about it the more I think that the whole loot 1 non equipped item is a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Normal item loot. If in 8 months its a problem it can be re evaluated.

I agree. Any form of item loot will hurt the population in the long run.

[Nirgon]

How about a list of patch notes going into the pvp server about resists before we make any kind of educated decisions?

There's tons of player hit/resist/to hit shit messed up in that base code if I remember reading right. What has been changed/fixed?

[Pudge]

guys.. this problem of looting weapons/manastone from your bags will vanish if you:

1) limit the items that are lootable to non-lore only

2) if you place any item in an inventory slot (sacrificing an entire bag slot) it is unlootable

[Lasher]

i believe it was said you can loot from bag or inventory, i could be wrong

[Nirgon]

Normal item loot. If in 8 months its a problem it can be re evaluated.

During a beta. Don't change the rules mid-season on your finished product that drastically.

Looting from inventory not so smart unless it can somehow limit the ability to loot weapons... creating more strange problems.

Red to me always meant droppable item loot from inventory aka droppable resist gear being a prize/risk/advantage.

[Pudge]

o i didn't mean in "2)" that it was indeed this way, only that it should be, in order to limit the gankability of manastones etc

[Lasher]

k sorry, dont pudge me please

[XiakenjaTZ]

I still hope they go with no item loot. Easiest and least drama for everyone.

[Nirgon]

guys.. this problem of looting weapons/manastone from your bags will vanish if you:

1) limit the items that are lootable to non-lore only

2) if you place any item in an inventory slot (sacrificing an entire bag slot) it is unlootable


Can't loot a frog crown : /. Can't destroy your frog crown and loot someone else's (favorite).

While it seems that I am arguing FOR item loot, I'm really defending the justification for it. I'm against it on grounds that the level range will be 8 levels which I think is going to be important. If the population goes up? Make it 4 levels and I'd love to see item loot. I'm just worried about a guild rushing to 50 and taking control of things very early / locking everything down / griefing / not having to risk *anything* (like planar gear/dragon/god loot isn't enough of an advantage).

You do know an ice comet from a lvl 49 would out right kill almost any naked lvl 41 class? I think it's 831 damage pvp (I'm off but its mid 800s), do the math. You'll a lot of this if there's item loot and 8 lvls.

[Pudge]

I still hope they go with no item loot. Easiest and least drama for everyone.

im kinda with you here.. although if item loot was restricted far enough that it could only be fun (kindof like coin loot is) instead of a serious issue, then i'd be all for it.

[Rushmore]

Can't loot a frog crown : /. Can't destroy your frog crown and loot someone else's (favorite).

While it seems that I am arguing FOR item loot, I'm really defending the justification for it. I'm against it on grounds that the level range will be 8 levels which I think is going to be important. If the population goes up? Make it 4 levels and I'd love to see item loot. I'm just worried about a guild rushing to 50 and taking control of things very early / locking everything down / griefing / not having to risk *anything* (like planar gear/dragon/god loot isn't enough of an advantage).

There is no way around this. One guild will be first. Hopefully we get 2-3 strong guilds. A lot of times when Guild A cannot compete with Guild B there is a People'race. Which eventually you just have 2 huge guilds. I'm hoping this won't happen.

[XiakenjaTZ]

bag/inventory item loot can kind of screw over the few classes that routinly chang their weapons. bard with weapons and instruments and warrior with 1hnders and 2hnders.

Some classes easily go with out ever needing to change weapons. I dont know if it can be done but if this type of item loot is going in i would say have a special bag that has like 2 slots so there be can be 2 items you can protect

Good point. This hurts some classes way more than others.

The only fair thing to every class is coin. Life aint fair though...

[Ziggy]

coin loot is fair.
item loot is fun.

non-equipped item loot = PVP IS COMING EQUIP THE SHIT YOU DONT WANT TO LOSE
traditional item loot = PVP IS COMING BAG ALL UR SHIT AND CRY

[Rushmore]

someone in IRC just brought up bards.... it would suck to lose instruments every-time u die in pvp.


maybe all primary and secondary items should be off limits.

otherwise there won't be many bards.

[Tombom]

someone in IRC just brought up bards.... it would suck to lose instruments every-time u die in pvp.


maybe all primary and secondary items should be off limits.

otherwise there won't be many bards.

good fix

[Nirgon]

We can't have people risking gear that gives them an advantage can we? And that said, only the droppable pieces (hi2u full droppable resist gear, hi2u mithril arms/legs).

[Xareth]

this^^, you have heard all the sides of this argument for months make a decision. i personally think item loot will benefit veteran players more than new to pvpers and will hurt the growth of the server. i also think if you put it in it will be changed shortly upon release. but like i said we have all typed all this nonsense before

I agree. That's why item loot from bags is a good solution.

The real benefit is that pvp will be muuuuuch better. Otherwise I'd be saying either full item loot or nothing (just coin).

[Rushmore]

still tho item loot is going to hurt the causal player base badly.

[Xareth]

bag/inventory item loot can kind of screw over the few classes that routinly chang their weapons. bard with weapons and instruments and warrior with 1hnders and 2hnders.

Some classes easily go with out ever needing to change weapons. I dont know if it can be done but if this type of item loot is going in i would say have a special bag that has like 2 slots so there be can be 2 items you can protect

+!

[Prahadigm24]

I don't see a problem with manastones. If you really want to use one without any risk, just keep it equipped! With the "1 item from inventory" rule, players will have to set priorities and that's a challenging, positive side-effect!

"1 item from bags, but not from the main inventory slots" would cause a few problems. E.g. as a caster who just looted an awesome melee item which I cannot equip, I'll simply put it into a main inventory slot.

Melees (excluding Bards here) don't have to carry multiple weapon sets around - maybe you want to bring extra weapons for raids, but you'll have a raid force to protect you in that case. There are also quite a few NO DROP weapons which you might carry as alternative in your bags! This is, again, a question of priorities: saftey vs. power/flexibility.

Bard instruments are a different thing, that's correct. They need a different solution or exception.

[Bockscar]

Primary/secondary-equippable items should not be lootable even from bags. Bards cannot function without multiple instruments in their inventory, and several classes cannot function if they lose their weapons which can happen in a number of ways even with bagloot. If you lose your weapons as a rogue, you're completely stuck. If you can't carry several instruments on a bard, you're useless. If you don't carry two sets of weapons on a warrior, you either can't PvE or can't PvP.

Or just don't have any kind of itemloot at all. It'll hurt the server in a number of ways, there are no real arguments for it and countless arguments against it, the majority is against it, and it has never really worked out anywhere in the entire history of Everquest. If that's not reason enough to ditch it, I don't know what kind of logic goes into this decision.

[Khurak]

Disclaimer : I intend to play a Bard, so may be biased.

You will have 4 instruments + 2 weapons at mid game and above.
At least 2 out of 4 top line instruments are droppable and the class mechanic is built around using them to enhance your buffs.
If the option to have equipped gear not lootable is chosen, I would suggest Inventory slots be not lootable as well as to take this into account (ie trade off between bags and safe pieces of gear seems fair).

<=== Eagerly waiting for it to start

[Tajin]

item loot... just 1 item, no looting in bag

[Yukahwa]

Tajin makes a good point here

[Lasher]

Not sure if it was said but if disarm works properly you would see melee losing their weapons on red99 which even the pvp servers on live decided to not allow after a very short time

[vinx]

Not sure if it was said but if disarm works properly you would see melee losing their weapons on red99 which even the pvp servers on live decided to not allow after a very short time
how short a time?
I seem to recall messing around with friends disarming each other in duels
around umm, kunark for sure.. possibly velious

[Lasher]

sorry didnt clarify, i meant looting weapons in pvp only lasted for a short time

[juicedsixfo]

Disarm was huge for PvP. Can't tell you how many people wouldn't even realize they were punching in a big fight. It just dropped your main weap into your inventory, not the ground, and it wasn't hard too stay on top of if you payed attention.

[Bockscar]

You'll still occasionally die to random shit just after getting disarmed. If that killing ice comet lands 0.5 seconds afterwards, you're not gonna have had time to equip your weapon again. Byebye weapon. Lots of players are not in guilds and do not have people who will just give them a new weapon. Tough fucking luck for Steve the level 39 paladin who just lost his hard-earned Ghoulbane and doesn't have any money in the bank. Who's gonna group with an unarmed paladin? Who's gonna give him a weapon out of kindness on a PvP server? How's he gonna feed his kids? Please think of Steve.

[vinx]

jousting was fun with a succesful disarm
(you notice your opponent is no longer holding a wep)
yet he makes multiple passes lolol

can turn the tide if your losein ;)

[Silikten]

I still think Rushmore's idea of "bagged items lootable" is awesome. Which means no items equipped and no items in inventory (so clickies cant be looted--manstone etc..). JUST BAGS

[Lasher]

yeah "bag loot only" sounds good to me. Time for a serious loot poll

[Bockscar]

I still think Rushmore's idea of "bagged items lootable" is awesome. Which means no items equipped and no items in inventory (so clickies cant be looted--manstone etc..). JUST BAGS

I'd be happy with that. It fixes the problem of tank weapons, bard instruments, peridots etc. that classes rely on. Enough room for the class-related necessities, not enough that you can safely carry a bunch of spare shit around.