Little GM intervention as possible

[Not_Kazowi]

This is how this server will last and be maximum fun. If it is a player runned ruleset then the bad will be punished and the respected will be reasoned with.

My experience from leading top guild on VZTZ for a couple years was that any time a GM got involved it usually led to more problems and grief than if it was handled by leadership among guilds. The more mature and reasonable people of the server will rise to the top naturally and take the reigns in an effort to make the server legit.

just my thoughts, anyone else chime in or dont

[Cwall]

The more mature and reasonable people of the server will rise to the top naturally and take the reigns in an effort to make the server legit.

Yeah that.

[Kope]

My experience from leading top guild on VZTZ

Didn't need to read further.

[Not_Kazowi]

u jealous dawg? just a fact, i handled a lot of things that the small folk like you were oblivious to. I just want a fun server with everyone else. wat

[Cwall]

A large amount of GM enforced rules will just waste so much more time and promote more whining.

[Kope]

u jealous dawg?

You're really trying to be taken seriously with a vocabulary like that? And you guys wonder why no one outside of the tzvz crew takes you seriously?

[Not_Kazowi]

what happens is the GMs eventually get sick and burned out. Then they will start taking short cuts to deal with the difficult situations that lay ahead (trains, LNS violations, depopping mobs, etc)


also: nothing pissed me off more when someone was a shady fuck and would break the rules, then cry to the GM to enforce some bullshit on me.

[Not_Kazowi]

You're really trying to be taken seriously with a vocabulary like that? And you guys wonder why no one outside of the tzvz crew takes you seriously?

Sorry dude, I'm on the internets briefly before I roll out with my super model GF. Just typing stuff out asap. You obviously don't know who you're messing with.

[Buhbuh]

I think everyone went over this in the stickies above. Macken raged a lot about bluebies being pussies and wanting their hands held when I, who am also all for as little GM invention as possible, told him that in cases of hacking and very clear cases of intentional training (on raids mostly), people should get assraped by GM's.

There's some strange misconception that GM's would be on the server to delegate certain ways of playing the game. I don't think they want to intervene, honestly. But I won't assume. In cases where people are being dumb asses, just to be one (training raids with no intention of engaging that guild), they're pretty much a worthless player anyway.

I'm not sure where GM's stand on it, but most people agreed with the stance of, obviously, no tolerance to hacking, and in severe, blatant cases of training, that player doing the training can go get fucked. Bind camping and LnS are basically autonomous issues figured out by the players.

Envious and Macken sort of raged about it, but I think they're kind of cool with those ideas now.

[Kope]

what happens is the GMs eventually get sick and burned out. Then they will start taking short cuts to deal with the difficult situations that lay ahead (trains, LNS violations, depopping mobs, etc)


also: nothing pissed me off more when someone was a shady fuck and would break the rules, then cry to the GM to enforce some bullshit on me.

THANK YOU! This is what i've been asking for for at least 2 months now, someone who can explain the menatlity clearly and use rationality.

Yes, way too many rules being forced upon the players by the GMs will seriously burn out the GMs, but we can't have an FFA on the server, that won't work either. The problem is finding the sweet spot middle ground where everyone can play and the server can prosper.

Training flat out cannot be allowed, and if you leave it up to the players no one will really be punished for it, but on the same hand you can't have the GMs there for every dispute. The Gms need to handle the big transgressions so people know they can be punished.

/just an imo

[Cwall]

Words of wisdom, Buhbuh.

[Kope]

You obviously don't know who you're messing with.

get over yourself btw

[Envious]

Game over man, I'm fucking agree'ing with Rexx...

Buhbuh and Macken are just a little limp in the wrist.

Anyway, Rexx makes the same arguments that I have been trying to pound into these forums for months.

+1 Rexx (and /wrists me for us having the same opinion).

[Envious]

And no, I'm not "cool" with the idea now. And I never raged about it.

The simply fact is that most of the people posting in these threads dont understand how to prolong the life of the server (beyond 3 months) and that is, basically, what I said on the VZ/TZ forums for YEARS.

Make it legit. GM intervention = doubts on legitimacy

Anyway, WB Rexx. And Kudos for being one of the 3 or 4 people that actually understand how to make this a legit long term PvP server.

[SearyxTZ]

Sexy Rexxy is correct but with an asterisk


Some GM enforcement is required. No rule = training replaces PvP. If you played on the last VZTZ shitbox, you'd know that it was the same. Bunch of naked monk training, and we didn't even get to do it in the planes where it would have been really awful.

Gotta have the rule in there, but I agree with the sentiment to make it as hands-off with GMs as possible.


Also PDM flying kicked u right out of that #1 spot np np. This is for you bro.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2evuwjq.jpg

[Buhbuh]

And no, I'm not "cool" with the idea now. And I never raged about it.

The simply fact is that most of the people posting in these threads dont understand how to prolong the life of the server (beyond 3 months) and that is, basically, what I said on the VZ/TZ forums for YEARS.

Make it legit. GM intervention = doubts on legitimacy

Anyway, WB Rexx. And Kudos for being one of the 3 or 4 people that actually understand how to make this a legit long term PvP server.

I think it's kind of silly how simple you find it all to be. I don't know if you have selective memory, but if you want to recap:

TZVZ did the item loot thing, people were rage quitting. TZVZ also did the no rules things, and again, the population went down. TZVZ took out item loot, the population soared by 200 + %. TZVZ dev's tried to get guild leaders together to form some sort of agreement, it worked for some time that way.

I think you're blaming the box losing population solely because of GM intervention, when in actuality, it was GM corruption, among many other reasons. And yes, the two distinctions are completely exclusive. GM intervention doesn't LEAD to corruption. Hiring people as guides previously invested in the player base leads to corruption.

Don't pretend to know anything about the success and failings of the box if you're only looking at part of the picture. I played that fucking thing for a long time along side of notably intelligent players. Searyx and Sirken (probably the only GM's who weren't corrupt, but perhaps made mistakes) tend to agree with most of the people on the boards here. You're making a bunch of claims and shouting them continuously-- that doesn't change your narrow scope.

And really, don't take blame off ourselves. A lot of us had quite some part in destroying the population. That environment was ridiculous for new players. People wanted yellow text under any circumstances. People were ruthless, and the population was mutilated because of it. I was the underdog, as per usual. It's not like I didn't hear people wanting to quit and eventually do so because of the shitty way that the server was run.

It's funny because I'd like to say that you have no frame of reference to be commenting on what rules should be in R99, but I cant. You do have a frame a reference, you just choose not to use it.

[Harrison]

My experience from leading top guild on VZTZ for a couple years was that any time

My experience from leading top guild on VZTZ

leading top guild on VZTZ

VZTZ

[Vile]

Emperor Rexx!

I raid for Rexx loot, dawgs.

Time to lay down the battle axe.

[Crenshinabon]

There has to be extreme GM intervention. Having 2-3 people continually train a legit raid of casuals is going to make people quit (Fear for example, last VZTZ had a naked monk and bard zoning in every 10 minutes just to train and wipe the raid we had going and I know people quit). Just sayin some people are lame enough to grief entire raids/groups with trains all night and thats not right. Obvious and blatant trains like this should get the banhammer for sure.

[Lasher]

Problem with GM intervention especially on a pvp server is that there is not enough informatin usually provided to make an accurate decision.

Id rather deal with people training me when its allowed versus being trained when its not allowed. A good trainer wont be obvious about it and odds are unless a GM wants to just sit there and wait a person will train a raid then a GM will get petition and if the raid is wiped the GM will be there just shrugging saying he didnt see it and now that the GM is there its not like you can retaliate and train back with out getting in trouble

[Harrison]

Problem with GM intervention especially on a pvp server is that there is not enough informatin usually provided to make an accurate decision.

Id rather deal with people training me when its allowed versus being trained when its not allowed. A good trainer wont be obvious about it and odds are unless a GM wants to just sit there and wait a person will train a raid then a GM will get petition and if the raid is wiped the GM will be there just shrugging saying he didnt see it and now that the GM is there its not like you can retaliate and train back with out getting in trouble

Unlike your failbox. There is an accurate way to figure this out on here.

The problem remains now though, that nothing is done to people who DO break the rules.

So there is no repercussion for training. May as well allow it now.

[Doors]

Agree with op.

Whats funny is Harrison trying to discredit anyone from vztz that actually know what works and what doesn't.

[Harrison]

Hmmm, opinions from terrible servers. Very valid.

[Lasher]

Unlike your failbox. There is an accurate way to figure this out on here.

The problem remains now though, that nothing is done to people who DO break the rules.

So there is no repercussion for training. May as well allow it now.

Yeah i dont know what p99 has at their disposal so maybe they have way to accurately tell who initiated an intentional train. Can that information be accessed and analyzed immediatly or will it be 4 horus later or a day later?

How does training get handled on p99?

[Doors]

Hmmm, opinions from terrible servers. Very valid.

Doesn't matter if the server was terrible dude. Most of us speak from experience. And thats who I would want to listen to if I was designing a PVP box and wanted input on how to properly do it. I wouldn't be listening to people that had no clue.

[Arclyte]

....all the while both Rogean's and the server's reputation hang in the balance.

GM intervention, while more relaxed than P99, is guaranteed. I think leaving the integrity of the server solely to some nebulous "council of guild leaders" is stupid at best, the thrice failure of VZTZ notwithstanding.

Common sense and over a decade of MMOs tells me it will require the vigilance of both.

[Tamiah2011]

Agree with op.

Whats funny is Harrison trying to discredit anyone from vztz that actually know what works and what doesn't.

Was vztz even a server? I only remimber one true server RZ

[Envious]

Problem with GM intervention especially on a pvp server is that there is not enough informatin usually provided to make an accurate decision.

Id rather deal with people training me when its allowed versus being trained when its not allowed. A good trainer wont be obvious about it and odds are unless a GM wants to just sit there and wait a person will train a raid then a GM will get petition and if the raid is wiped the GM will be there just shrugging saying he didnt see it and now that the GM is there its not like you can retaliate and train back with out getting in trouble

And to Buhbuh, I quit reading most of your posts.

VZ/TZ tried no rules for like a month? And that was mid 2.0? You cant establish a rule set, then change it to something drastically different mid stream. Its like holding a piss midstream, if your not used to it, it burns.

Anyway... Oh, and as far as "casuals"... rofl, are you fucking serious? Most people here are talking about how they are setting up their comp rooms for living. EQ is not really for the casual. And EQ EMU is not for some Bnet kiddie that wants to try something new, its for EQ junkies that need a fucking fix. Take that bush league bullshit to another forum, it doesnt fly here.

WTB server w/o handholding + GM intervention~

[solid]

the thrice failure of VZTZ notwithstanding.

Not fair to say 2.0 was a failure; server was humming along fine and pop was on the up and up until zoneCMD blew the box up (which had nothing to do with a ruleset or GM intervention)

[Cwall]

Harrison's arguments based completely around ad hominem sure are fun to read.

I started playing a game where I would come on the forum after a while and take note of how often he repeats the words "cesspool", "vztzject"(by the way, this term will never catch on no matter how cool he thinks it makes him sound), "inbred", and "scum" in the threads that I happen to see him post in.

It's almost every single post, by the way, except for when he's posting in a thread on the blue section of the forums that isn't a bluebie circlejerk. In that case, it's still pretty high, but not quite every post.

[Titanuk]

think thats the only SS searyx has

[Titanuk]

btw hi solid been awhile

[solid]

hi tit

[Maurk]

A large amount of GM enforced rules will just waste so much more time and promote more whining.

++

[Xareth]

I completely agree - as little GM intervention as possible.

But, even the way that is phrased, there is going to be SOME amount of GMing that is needed, that is vital to the overall success of the server.

GMs just have to focus on what is imporant, and let the community handle the rest.

[Lasher]

How does P99 handle intentional trains?

[Smedy]

i prefer the smedy edit of searyx pic *biased*

http://jonnyeriksson.com/imaginary-friends/wp-content/gallery/uploads/rexx_fixed.jpg

hi rexx <3

[Crenshinabon]

Problem with GM intervention especially on a pvp server is that there is not enough informatin usually provided to make an accurate decision.

Id rather deal with people training me when its allowed versus being trained when its not allowed. A good trainer wont be obvious about it and odds are unless a GM wants to just sit there and wait a person will train a raid then a GM will get petition and if the raid is wiped the GM will be there just shrugging saying he didnt see it and now that the GM is there its not like you can retaliate and train back with out getting in trouble

Yea, but at least the people training will stop after that point. Otherwise the training would happen all night. Once GM is alert it would be easy to tell. Even easier to tell in places like planes where people zone in naked to train.

[Lasher]

Yeah traning will stop for the night but potentially the guild that just got trained is shit out of luck and the guild who trained now has a GM to make sure they dont get trained.

Maybe p99 has resources to handle this shit that vztz didnt so i dont know. On tz i dont think i ever saw a gm intervene on trains so i have no experience there but on vztz i experienced it a few times wher a guidl gets trained and wipes and Gm shows up and says " sorry i wasnt here" and now the opposing guild is in and set up and GM is around and there is no recourse except to try to fight naked or get caught training

[Rexxin]

Personally I think it is the guilds or groups responsibilities to stop a potential trainer in zone. Defend yourself, prepare yourself, trains are easily avoidable and if corpse camping is allowed you can ruin the trainers night even if they ruined yours. Play smart, do we seriously need babysitters? On live years ago people knew who trained and who to look out for and they handled those situations, I don’t remember training being a huge problem we just dealt with each circumstance differently which is what made raiding actually fun verses care bear crap with a GM involved making sure 60 People in the zone are following the rules,

Trainers will get dealt with by the player base enough said.

[Envious]

Easiest thing to do, and the most fair, is to simply have community enforced rules.

If a guild becomes known for training, they will have to resort to raiding at off hours to keep from getting griefed. And that will likely not save them.

I think the people with the most foresight and understanding of what systemic problems VZ/TZ had have spoken.

Here is the thing, if P99's hardest, one of the longest standing, and quite possibly the best GM (Uthgaard) got burned out by PvE bullshit... what fucking chance do the GM's have for R99?

[Knuckle]

Emperor Rexx!

I raid for Rexx loot, dawgs.

Time to lay down the battle axe.

GMasters up bros

[Knuckle]

This is how this server will last and be maximum fun. If it is a player runned ruleset then the bad will be punished and the respected will be reasoned with.

My experience from leading top guild on VZTZ for a couple years was that any time a GM got involved it usually led to more problems and grief than if it was handled by leadership among guilds. The more mature and reasonable people of the server will rise to the top naturally and take the reigns in an effort to make the server legit.

just my thoughts, anyone else chime in or dont

remember the first day big knuckle and rexx were reuinited under the heresy tag in crushbone and 9 triumpe tried to zerg us.

[SearyxTZ]

think thats the only SS searyx has

I have plenty bro

http://tallonzektimes.org/bb/index.php?topic=31402.0


None of u because you weren't even playing on the primetime VZTZ, unknown scrublet

[SearyxTZ]

Titanuk was still being potty trained while I had a full viking beard and was flying kicking my way to superstardom

[gloinz]

the server needs trains to maintain balance imo

ya can raid all ya want but a well trained pvp champ with a kobold army is gunna do some damage

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/92/undersiege.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/undersiege.jpg/)

it maintains balance in the game, and prevents ppl from bitching about alleged trains (when the majority of time it didnt happen)
such examples include a pvp champ utilizing ghengis khan archery tactics on a group of girlymen, leading them into a trap of hill giants which these girlymen run into

now the pvp champ didn't train noone, but of course these girlymen gunna cry like hell that the pvp champ did rather than admit defeat in shame

in closing yall girlymen need to man up and allow training, if ya don't suck it aint to hard to stopem, just send one person who can root ( or 50 if its gloinz)

[Foxx]

ya, a drug addict who got kicked out of the air force is tuff to stop pals

[eastadam55]

from the champ himself

[gloinz]

ya, a drug addict who got kicked out of the air force is tuff to stop pals

no u r

[Titanuk]

Titanuk was still being potty trained while I had a full viking beard and was flying kicking my way to superstardom

sorry do i know you?

[Smedy]

the server needs trains to maintain balance imo

ya can raid all ya want but a well trained pvp champ with a kobold army is gunna do some damage

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/92/undersiege.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/undersiege.jpg/)

it maintains balance in the game, and prevents ppl from bitching about alleged trains (when the majority of time it didnt happen)
such examples include a pvp champ utilizing ghengis khan archery tactics on a group of girlymen, leading them into a trap of hill giants which these girlymen run into

now the pvp champ didn't train noone, but of course these girlymen gunna cry like hell that the pvp champ did rather than admit defeat in shame

in closing yall girlymen need to man up and allow training, if ya don't suck it aint to hard to stopem, just send one person who can root ( or 50 if its gloinz)

I have a special place in my heart for the champ, i hope we can fight side by side vs the scum of norrath.

[LastBoss]

also: nothing pissed me off more when someone was a shady fuck and would break the rules, then cry to the GM to enforce some bullshit on me.


Yeah you are so white knight! yeah right!

[Foxx]

european basketball players are far inferior to us americans.

smedy is mad lebron aint swede

[Silikten]

I have plenty bro

http://tallonzektimes.org/bb/index.php?topic=31402.0


None of u because you weren't even playing on the primetime VZTZ, unknown scrublet

Best SS is when you looted Tstaff. Every true monk knows what I am talking about~

[Not_Kazowi]

Some GM intervention? Sure maybe small shit like, this dude is CLEARLY ackin or exploiting. But none of this pvp in the planes then guild B cries incessantly about a train guild A dropped on them mid pvp in PLANE OF FEAR??


Pretty simple, maybe blatant unnecessary trains should be bannable but thats pushing it. Should be street justice, always works out. Act like a shit head get treated like one etc.


Also: hey super pals

[Silikten]

big rexxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Envious]

Agree'ing with Rexx kills my soul.

But its double truth. Steet justice

*Insert Rexx holding shotgun*

[Buhbuh]

This thread is basically the point of view from former Heresy members. Street justice sounds great because it usually always worked out for that guild. Street justice doesn't always sort things out.

But I'll give you a for instance.

Guild A has just reached the N wall in PoFear. Guild B has gathered outside and wants control of the zone and to prevent Guild A from retrieving better gear. Needless to say, Guild B is far better geared than Guild A and wants to keep it that way. The intention is to engage. Instead, a member from Guild B zones in, trains half the zone to N wall, Guild A is unprepared ("they should have been prepared," terrible argument), Guild A wipes, Guild B takes the zone, /end.

That's cool? You're going to just say the moral is to anticipate? Let's not act like everyone in this thread just let sleeping dogs lie after situations like that occurred. You're delusional if you think that was even remotely true. Read a thread from back in the day on VZTZ.

Anytime someone got fucked in the game, they had a new complaint on the boards. Exploits/ bugs were only brought to light after it directly effected another player (who knew about it) in a bad way. It was pathetic. And you all have that same mind set regarding R99.

Street justice through and through is bullshit. I'm all for as little GM intervention as possible, but we all know the people posting in this thread have more time (or will make more time) than most other people for R99. And most of you are previously from Heresy. Street justice will almost always fall in your favor.

[Silikten]

This thread is basically the point of view from former Heresy members. Street justice sounds great because it usually always worked out for that guild. Street justice doesn't always sort things out.

But I'll give you a for instance.

Guild A has just reached the N wall in PoFear. Guild B has gathered outside and wants control of the zone and to prevent Guild A from retrieving better gear. Needless to say, Guild B is far better geared than Guild A and wants to keep it that way. The intention is to engage. Instead, a member from Guild B zones in, trains half the zone to N wall, Guild A is unprepared ("they should have been prepared," terrible argument), Guild A wipes, Guild B takes the zone, /end.

That's cool? You're going to just say the moral is to anticipate? Let's not act like everyone in this thread just let sleeping dogs lie after situations like that occurred. You're delusional if you think that was even remotely true. Read a thread from back in the day on VZTZ.

Anytime someone got fucked in the game, they had a new complaint on the boards. Exploits/ bugs were only brought to light after it directly effected another player (who knew about it) in a bad way. It was pathetic. And you all have that same mind set regarding R99.

Street justice through and through is bullshit. I'm all for as little GM intervention as possible, but we all know the people posting in this thread have more time (or will make more time) than most other people for R99. And most of you are previously from Heresy. Street justice will almost always fall in your favor.

I was previously from GSG. Where about 5 of us would kill about 10-20 of enemies. Just to state that I am not exactly "Heresy" although I was in the guild and it was a great guild!

The moral of your story, for me anyways, would be Guild A should have zoned out and fought Guild B or held the zone in. I have held a zone in for about 2 hours once and it was epic. I have also been the one to zone out and try to kill the guild outside. That was also epic.

There were so many good fights with the euros and the zerg guilds which many can attest to. What I don't think is cool is the jerk who trained. Training only begets training. When it comes to gaming its treat others how you want to be treated, period. That's how I feel--for the most part.

Knuckle and I used to be mortal enemies but as times went on we simply began to just realize we both played somewhat honorably and left it at that. Just a fun fact for the public!

p.s. BuhBuh i know you are exactly the type to train if trained and allow LnS if you were allowed LnS. Which is exactly how it should be and I am sure you would agree to that. But basically, training is for revenge, stopping a guild, or because you have no pvp talent.

[Not_Kazowi]

I see your point buhbuh but street justice really is the answer. Anyone who represents fair play will be treated as an equal, me being from a large top guild or not. I was not always in #1 guild revered by the server, i spent plenty of time as an outcast or in a smaller guild.


My experience is that if you are looked at as a fair guy, then people just wont fuck with you. Sure there will be the guild full of shit heads like gloinz or vigg who will uncontrollably grief you for the luls but they will make their life hard on the server by doing that.


There is no perfect answer or solution to a euphoric server, but I personally believe that little GM intervention, and a reputation based server policy will really be the best.

[Kope]

I see your point buhbuh but street justice really is the answer. Anyone who represents fair play will be treated as an equal, me being from a large top guild or not. I was not always in #1 guild revered by the server, i spent plenty of time as an outcast or in a smaller guild.


My experience is that if you are looked at as a fair guy, then people just wont fuck with you. Sure there will be the guild full of shit heads like gloinz or vigg who will uncontrollably grief you for the luls but they will make their life hard on the server by doing that.


There is no perfect answer or solution to a euphoric server, but I personally believe that little GM intervention, and a reputation based server policy will really be the best.

I don't know where you get your knowledge and server experience from but this isn't at all how it worked on my server on live.

On TZ the "outcast" guild was the top guild on the server. Crossteaming was outlawed on the server and was basically unthinkable until Pandemonium came along. Pandeminum banded together and decimated the rest of the server's egos.

Look around you at the TZ/VZ crews and what they want to do. Do you really think they'll "band together" for the benefit of the server? Heck no, they're going to grief people off the server as much as they possibly can, because that's what they enjoy.

[solid]

gonna grief kope off the server, that's 4 sho

[Kope]

gonna grief kope off the server, that's 4 sho

How many accounts do you have Macken?

[Kope]

gonna grief kope off the server, that's 4 sho

That's something I don't really understand actually and maybe someone can explain it to me. What joy do you get in griefing someone until they leave the server? You're deminishing the server population and your fun along with it.

Maybe if you got something for it, or knew the server would last past it (SZ), but this is a niche population with a non renewable source of people playing on the server. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot over and over with this mentality.

*Edit*

How many dead servers do you need to understand that?

[Tombom]

Harrison's arguments based completely around ad hominem sure are fun to read.

I started playing a game where I would come on the forum after a while and take note of how often he repeats the words "cesspool", "vztzject"(by the way, this term will never catch on no matter how cool he thinks it makes him sound), "inbred", and "scum" in the threads that I happen to see him post in.

It's almost every single post, by the way, except for when he's posting in a thread on the blue section of the forums that isn't a bluebie circlejerk. In that case, it's still pretty high, but not quite every post.

cwall quickly becoming my favorite poster.

[Alex]

Sorry dude, I'm on the internets briefly before I roll out with my super model GF. Just typing stuff out asap. You obviously don't know who you're messing with.

aaand that's where you lost all credability

[Not_Kazowi]

aaand that's where you lost all credability

internet is srs business pal

[Not_Kazowi]

That's something I don't really understand actually and maybe someone can explain it to me. What joy do you get in griefing someone until they leave the server? You're deminishing the server population and your fun along with it.

Maybe if you got something for it, or knew the server would last past it (SZ), but this is a niche population with a non renewable source of people playing on the server. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot over and over with this mentality.

*Edit*

How many dead servers do you need to understand that?

learn 2 not take people so serious.


Pretty sure this server isnt going to be team based (o god i hope not) and im basically speaking off MY experience as i stated pal. VZTZ lasted for 3 years and had a bustling population for a decent portion of that. I lead Heresy for pretty much its entire duration and think that when a GM is constantly involved in guild politics, that it greatly skews the outcome of events. Just saying that guilds need to figure things out, and if someone is a shit head then let them decide their own fate. Pretty simple.


I'm not saying lets make this SZ but lets not make this a blue version of PVP either.

[fiegi]

All GM's do is throw kerosene on a burning fire 85% of the time.

[Buhbuh]

Silikten, if that was your attempt to pigeonhole me, then you are correct. I would train the fuck out of someone if they did it to me, GIVEN that no rules prohibit it. I'm fully aware that "eye for an eye leaves everybody blind," so to speak, but this is EQ, so fighting fire with fire was/ is sometimes the only option.

The people who seem to think I'm some sort of champion for bluebies need to recognize the fact that I was a monk for my entire EQ career on TZ. I was an officer of a guild directly under PDM, and I was the one who implemented and stressed the anti-pussy, fight fire with fire game play.

But that doesn't mean I enjoyed it! I enjoyed TZ for others reasons. On some occasions street justice brought me laughter and some joy during the times we'd actually beat PDM, but it made many a situation giant cluster-fucks of bind rushing, training, and both guilds never advancing toward their goal, etc.

It's a giant headache either way. I have absolutely no problem training the shit out of anyone at any time. I'll lose experience, bind right outside, delevel to 46 in the planes in attempts to sabotage anyone I see fit. I made it my agenda to have an entire guild act exactly that way on TZ. Veneration were a bunch of pussies that took a train, died, and cried about it. But please don't question my ability to be "hardcore." The point is that I'd just rather not be that way. It wastes so much damn time.

Don't get me wrong-- it will happen. It will probably happen frequently where GM's can't spectate an event between two guilds fighting. Everyone will train as they please. When there's no consequence, people don't care.

So what's the solution? Make people care. Ban the retards who make it their goal to screw people out of spite. People don't train because it's part of the fun game play. It's a way out, a final tactic-- something someone uses when it's clear their own guild or character won't be completing (or get the chance to complete) a raid or mob encounter that someone else has in their pocket.

If there are no rules, I will change my previous statement about starting an ENC, and again just be a monk or go SK. The benefit of having FD within a server of granted chaos is way too good to pass up. I don't even have to PvP. In fact, I won't. I will literally use mobs for every PvP encounter that I can and hopefully get the KS for that big YT, y'all! If not, so be it. They still died. I'm still a boss.

[Macken]

If you weren't a monk from SZ, then you shut your mouth when talking about training.

[Buhbuh]

Speaking of trolls, I trolled the streets for some hot slizz and found your mom's sweet bosom to console my libidic rage.

[Not_Kazowi]

Again i said as LITTLE GM intervention as possible, i did not say none at all. Obviously some extreme situations will need hand holding or unique situations which clearly will not be extinguished without a 3rd party.


What I mainly want to prevent is the hand holding that was on VZTZ. GMs tried to do their best but it usually ended up in a shit show and one side always got fucked.

[Buhbuh]

Yeah, VZTZ wasn't handled great. But biased/ vengeful GM's didn't help, either.

[Not_Kazowi]

Yeah thats another thing, GMs with no bias and complete fairness makes it a different ball game. Yet GMs being human and always having a bias due to incessant whining will create problems. I guess I just wanted to voice my opinion, Rogean and pals surely wont listen to me.

[Silikten]

BuhBuh, I am being completely straight forward. I knew you on TZ. I was one of the rejects that didnt play enough to join a raiding guild but would tag along as an outside prospect most of the time. I am 100% sure our outlook on pvp is the same. Griefing people doesnt bring any joy for me to be honest. It is more of a "look, i killed you so LnS for an hour and were good."

When they try to bind rush me I usually will just kill them again and say "look just lns." Strike 3 is where I decide to make sure they get the fact that I will kill them until they figure out they need to leave.

I will never train a guild for a boss or train a group for a named. I'd rather fight them for it even it I am outnumbered (same as you). However, many ppl know they can't win so they bring mobs. I am personally okay with that as well. Usually I can derail it and just make sure they do not see their corpse until I am done (street justice).

The hard part is sometimes people get respawned on or run twoclose (keke) to mobs. Unfortunately, it is a train, but not intentional. Then people begin to use that excuse etc and it is ridiculous.

[Buhbuh]

Well yeah, if GM's aren't there to see anything, nothing will come of it anyway.

I'm imagining a server that will be, for the majority of the time, without GM's.

The only time that trains are even remotely significant is on a raid. What's more, that will be the only time a GM is formally called to an event where the potential for tomfoolery is increased.

As people have stated, screenshots and oftentimes even fraps prove nothing to GM's.

And some dummies still don't understand the concept of not running into mobs and bringing them back to guilds, but that's easily spotted, and people will be quick to blame each other-- but there's still nothing that can be done in those situations. Which is totally fine.

[Haul]

Training was legal on live..some of you guys are being pussys.

[Harrison]

Training was legal on live..some of you guys are being pussys.

Wrong, unless you mean that joke of a server SZ.

[fistses]

GM intervention is essential to PVP to a emulator server. Mainly, to help Rexx when he dies in pvp. So every hour on the hour.

[Buhbuh]

Training, in the strictest sense, was illegal. But it happened without punishment very often, too often.

Trains are essentially the fondest memories I hear about by people that originate from SZ-- not that I'm trivializing that fun or memory. It simply wasn't legal, and I think most feel the server would be better without them.

Whatevs.

[Not_Kazowi]

GM intervention is essential to PVP to a emulator server. Mainly, to help Rexx when he dies in pvp. So every hour on the hour.

wat

[Atmas]

I think the best way to do it is have serious enforcement off the bat. You get strict on the rules from the start, weed out the bad elements and it willl be a lot less headache in the future.

[fistses]

wat

jk lets fuck Miss Texas Teen, tag team. you are it.

[Envious]

You guys are fucking stupid.

P99 staff cant maintain a hold on keeping P99 legit atm. And you think they want to embark on the trying to keep R99 legit, PLUS maintaining PnP?

El oh el.

No offense, but with the way the forum mods are here, add in losing the best off the GM staff, and the 2nd best on GM staff having to take a break (aka, left but then came back)... I just dont think they fully understand how to maintain a server / forum.

Been playing / cruising forums here for 6months? And am already seeing signs I saw on VZ/TZ.

I dunno, I hope they shape it up and figure it out, but its not usually something that goes in that direction. When this type of crap happens it been downhill in 100% of my observations.

[Envious]

And this has been hashed over a dozen times +

Training was never enforced on most of the pvp servers.

GM intervention = bad. It can never make things better. Causes people to quit.

P99 is seeing it now~

Live n learn.

[Buhbuh]

You aren't in any position to be making assumptions on the reasons people quit.

Trains not being enforced on live doesnt equate to making that the best way to run a server. People quit on live too. Is that lost on you? They didn't quit because of GMs, sure. Some probably quit because of a lack of GMs.

The only reason none of us saw quitting in the higher end guilds is because so much time was invested in characters at that point, and we became used to GMs not doing anything.

Were you at the Discordia/ Indignation/ Rapture vs. PDM battle for Emperor? We fought for hours on end to secure the zone, got the emperor to 1%, and the zone crashed. If GM's didn't get involved, Emperor would have still been missing, and no one would have been keyed to VT between those guilds.

There were countless times (which I doubt you were even aware of) that we had the headaches of PDM basically fucking us in ways that were cheating.

Were you ever leading a guild that had to deal with the brunt of all that horse shit from others guilds on live? It was a nightmare. You're a soldier, not a leader. Try being an officer of a guild and organizing, recruiting, repeating yourself constantly, and trying to come out on top with 1 or 2 people that can destroy all that work in an instant. We served people back for it, but it was a downward spiral. The server was a bunch of scumbags trying to grief people's progress and fun.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. The server will survive either way, I'll give you that. A server with game mechanics in order is sure to sustain a decent population regardless of the rule set. No other server had mechanics in order. But it will be higher and prevent people quitting if people are culpable.

I could have the ability to train in PvP in almost any circumstance if there are no rules. Lguk, SolB, Fear, Hate-- anywhere. I can train groups just to be an asshole and suffer no repercussions. Anyone can. Anyone will. What prevents me from doing so?

I guarantee if I play enough, and training is allowed, I can single handedly get the rule changed by unremitting persistence. I guarantee I can make people quit. I can do it just to prove a point. Why not make trains the rule of thumb in encountering any other player if there are no rules?

In PoP on live, I could have destroyed raids left and right if I didn't feel an ethical responsibility as a member of the server.

You want a server without ethics? That's fine.

But take into account that anything can happen. Training can be taken to an extreme. And I am extremely good at doing that. Guilds can be created simply to train; guilds that want nothing, not loot, not money, not YT-- a guild not looking for anything rational, a guild that just likes watching people squirm. A guild like that could virtually create a stagnant Norrath. Who has qualms doing that if there is no rule against it? It would be strategy.

Sounds like a blast.

[Not_Kazowi]

buhbuh dude i see your points and agree but chill out with the wall of text posts please.


Envious is pretty right about GM intervention = bad news though. I mean yes, some intervention is needed. We will need a GM on for the hackers and exploiters as well as the common need of bugs and such found by players. But the way VZTZ handled about 70% of the situations was just retarded and detrimental in the long run.


A GM basically can come in and cause MORE grief by making a decision such as guild A and B LNS for 1 hour then refight for the zone, after guild B already established control. This causes more whining and grief therefor putting MORE work on the GM staff.

Worst case scenario we let there be player governed rules etc for the first bit and if it just turns into a complete shit show? then add GM intervention. I just think that GMs staying out of things will really help the server, after enough time it will be live like.


I just know that being leader of Heresy, I **ALWAYS** wanted to prevent getting a GM involved unless we were blatantly hacked on (kringe) or trained out of control. I don't even care about the training situation anymore, as long as a GM doesn't always have his hand in guild politics or major pvp battles, it just gets old and arbitrary.

[Xareth]

Again i said as LITTLE GM intervention as possible, i did not say none at all. Obviously some extreme situations will need hand holding or unique situations which clearly will not be extinguished without a 3rd party.


What I mainly want to prevent is the hand holding that was on VZTZ. GMs tried to do their best but it usually ended up in a shit show and one side always got fucked.

Ex fucking zactly


And this has been hashed over a dozen times +

Training was never enforced on most of the pvp servers.

GM intervention = bad. It can never make things better. Causes people to quit.

P99 is seeing it now~

Live n learn.

See above.

[Xareth]

I could have the ability to train in PvP in almost any circumstance if there are no rules. Lguk, SolB, Fear, Hate-- anywhere. I can train groups just to be an asshole and suffer no repercussions. Anyone can. Anyone will. What prevents me from doing so?

I guarantee if I play enough, and training is allowed, I can single handedly get the rule changed by unremitting persistence. I guarantee I can make people quit. I can do it just to prove a point. Why not make trains the rule of thumb in encountering any other player if there are no rules?

In PoP on live, I could have destroyed raids left and right if I didn't feel an ethical responsibility as a member of the server.

You want a server without ethics? That's fine.

But take into account that anything can happen. Training can be taken to an extreme. And I am extremely good at doing that. Guilds can be created simply to train; guilds that want nothing, not loot, not money, not YT-- a guild not looking for anything rational, a guild that just likes watching people squirm. A guild like that could virtually create a stagnant Norrath. Who has qualms doing that if there is no rule against it? It would be strategy.

Sounds like a blast.


Best form of this argument yet, and amen to that.

GM's need to enforce no training and no hacking, nothing else.

[fistses]

You aren't in any position to be making assumptions on the reasons people quit.

Trains not being enforced on live doesnt equate to making that the best way to run a server. People quit on live too. Is that lost on you? They didn't quit because of GMs, sure. Some probably quit because of a lack of GMs.

The only reason none of us saw quitting in the higher end guilds is because so much time was invested in characters at that point, and we became used to GMs not doing anything.

Were you at the Discordia/ Indignation/ Rapture vs. PDM battle for Emperor? We fought for hours on end to secure the zone, got the emperor to 1%, and the zone crashed. If GM's didn't get involved, Emperor would have still been missing, and no one would have been keyed to VT between those guilds.

There were countless times (which I doubt you were even aware of) that we had the headaches of PDM basically fucking us in ways that were cheating.

Were you ever leading a guild that had to deal with the brunt of all that horse shit from others guilds on live? It was a nightmare. You're a soldier, not a leader. Try being an officer of a guild and organizing, recruiting, repeating yourself constantly, and trying to come out on top with 1 or 2 people that can destroy all that work in an instant. We served people back for it, but it was a downward spiral. The server was a bunch of scumbags trying to grief people's progress and fun.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. The server will survive either way, I'll give you that. A server with game mechanics in order is sure to sustain a decent population regardless of the rule set. No other server had mechanics in order. But it will be higher and prevent people quitting if people are culpable.

I could have the ability to train in PvP in almost any circumstance if there are no rules. Lguk, SolB, Fear, Hate-- anywhere. I can train groups just to be an asshole and suffer no repercussions. Anyone can. Anyone will. What prevents me from doing so?

I guarantee if I play enough, and training is allowed, I can single handedly get the rule changed by unremitting persistence. I guarantee I can make people quit. I can do it just to prove a point. Why not make trains the rule of thumb in encountering any other player if there are no rules?

In PoP on live, I could have destroyed raids left and right if I didn't feel an ethical responsibility as a member of the server.

You want a server without ethics? That's fine.

But take into account that anything can happen. Training can be taken to an extreme. And I am extremely good at doing that. Guilds can be created simply to train; guilds that want nothing, not loot, not money, not YT-- a guild not looking for anything rational, a guild that just likes watching people squirm. A guild like that could virtually create a stagnant Norrath. Who has qualms doing that if there is no rule against it? It would be strategy.

Sounds like a blast.

Quoted for a big post that means nothing. Let me boil this post down to people who don't want to read:
Hey guys, lets ban training so I can PvE ;-)
Otherwise I will train 24/7 because my mom still pays my internet bill.
-N00b.

[KB_Trader]

Buhbuh did you used to play any other emu servers? I used to play with a guy named Buhbuh, but it was years ago. I either played under the name Roseanne (female ogre warrior) or Kbtrader (Male ogre warrior).

[Macken]

Buhbuh did you used to play any other emu servers? I used to play with a guy named Buhbuh, but it was years ago. I either played under the name Roseanne (female ogre warrior) or Kbtrader (Male ogre warrior).

Hacking his way to a ban.

And regarding trains Buhbuh, you shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.

You aren't from SZ.

[Buhbuh]

Buhbuh did you used to play any other emu servers? I used to play with a guy named Buhbuh, but it was years ago. I either played under the name Roseanne (female ogre warrior) or Kbtrader (Male ogre warrior).

That would be me.

Don't troll, Macken. Basically no one likes you and you have nothing compelling to say. I'm super mad, bro (getting that out of the way for ya).

I wonder if people actually listen to players giving their input about a subject with absolutely no analysis or forethought. It's like listening to Bill O' Reilly. EQ is srs business, bros. Extrapolate your thoughts. Say something intelligent. Ad hominem's and red herrings don't really count. Bar a few of you, you're all basically voiceless here. If Rogean is reading these threads at all, he probably finds your opinions meaningless when you can't explain how you came to them. Unless of course Rogean thinks you think reeeeeeeaaaaaaaal good. Real good.

[KB_Trader]

Oh shit dude what's up? Was it LV we played together on? I remember you were one of my good pals on w/e box it was, but it was fuckin forever ago.

Also, just ignore Macken. He thinks playing on SZ directly correlates to being good at Everquest even though he played on the easiest team and was still fucking terrible.

[Envious]

Buhbuh, there is no point in extrapolating the points for the UMPTEENTH time. It has been done in at least 2 threads. Your only retort is that training is bad. This is a known. You dont seem to understand the core of the issue, or in reality, the core issue.

Removed all the personal insults. Trying to elevate myself a bit.

[Macken]

My guess is you two shared a sleeping bag in LV.

That's the guild that had so many hackers, it was disbanded.

It's as good a guess as any. What do you two think?

[Silikten]

I heart macken! Hims was awesome and had the best hick accent ever hahahahaha....long time man! Hope you and nova are doin good