View Full Version : Some thoughts about cheating on P1999
I'll start by saying that I've thought about the various cheats and hacks for EQ both to see what they're like and to see how they work. As anyone who runs into me online knows, I ultimately chose not to do this.
The notion of getting caught wasn't a deterrent for me earlier (although it certainly is now). The allure of hacks and cheats for me was not making the game easier so much as revealing more about how it works. I have no doubt that hacks and packet sniffers have been instrumental in reverse-engineering EQ Emu and similar projects. Ultimately, I decided that hacking would spoil the challenge of the game, and chose not to do it.
I enjoy EverQuest, and appreciate a wide range of design decisions that went into it. I find myself occasionally fascinated by little details, such as the way that mana ticks up, then back down by one a few seconds later, then up again. Setting up my own server at some point in the future may be necessary in order to answer obscure questions such as these. Should I ever do this, I'll likely be using client hacks as diagnostic tools. I'd certainly best do this on a separate machine than what I currently use, however.
Knowledge is amoral, and is also good to have. Seeing the fallout of the temporary bannings is also kind of neat for me - there's a lot of human nature in both sides of this drama.
Slave
08-29-2011, 01:58 PM
I tend to agree with you on the knowledge aspect. But another thing you must realize is that this server code is like their brain baby and they don't want that leaked, from a development and competition standpoint.
freakyuno
08-29-2011, 02:37 PM
I tend to agree with you on the knowledge aspect. But another thing you must realize is that this server code is like their brain baby and they don't want that leaked, from a development and competition standpoint.
For the record, nothing a client can install can get at the "server code". At the very furthest stretch, it can get at the result of the server code (what gets sent to the client over the IP connection).
Also not to derail the thread above - but to maybe answer a little mystery for the OP.
The reason mana "tic's" up, and then back down, as well as health, and endurance, is because the server has a set "rate of increase" per tic, the client has a "expected rate of increase" per tic. The client tic's, the server tic's and eventually at some point the client checks the server value, and adjusts to the actual value, rather than the expected or estimated.
Hope that helps.
Nazran
08-29-2011, 02:45 PM
The only thing I ever thought about using hacks for back on live was for....
pyzjn
I just knew that I could get that GBS, my life gear would be set.... lol
I spent hours reading scary hacker boards, inuendo threads on legit boards, even considered buying an ebook from ebay that had a moneyback guaranteed I'd figure out the spawn cycle if I just forked over $19 bucks.
lol
bonehand
08-29-2011, 03:09 PM
The only thing I ever thought about using hacks for back on live was for....
pyzjn
I just knew that I could get that GBS, my life gear would be set.... lol
I spent hours reading scary hacker boards, inuendo threads on legit boards, even considered buying an ebook from ebay that had a moneyback guaranteed I'd figure out the spawn cycle if I just forked over $19 bucks.
lol
I hate that bitch...pyzjn must die, even if she doesn't drop the GBS, I just want her dead.
Anyway, 3 days camping ruins at least a few hours at a time and every mob within sight of the hill dying every 3 minutes or whatever repop is and she never showed up for me. Neither did Varsoon...which I totally recall from live happening at least under the tree closer to the Miller's if not the ruins themselves...actually, I don't recall ever seeing him wandering the zone on p99 like live either...didn't need a hack to run into him at least some days! Haven't played much in QH lately, maybe it's fixed.
As for hacking, I don't care what others do as long as it doesn't prevent me from doing what I want to do. If that means I have 10K and I want to buy an item and a hacker got it with software showing them spawns, then so be it. I'd buy it from them just as much as I would from anyone else. As for the 60 Nec in LGuk...ya, you can track those rare spawns just fine, huh? Didn't realize Kunark gave necros the Track Undead skill...thanks for letting exp groups play through asshat...
The reason mana "tic's" up, and then back down, as well as health, and endurance, is because the server has a set "rate of increase" per tic, the client has a "expected rate of increase" per tic. The client tic's, the server tic's and eventually at some point the client checks the server value, and adjusts to the actual value, rather than the expected or estimated.
Ah, client interpolation. It's kind of odd that the client and server are so consistently off by 1. I wonder if the mana regeneration rate was bumped up by 1 at some point post-Kunark. Alternately, the mana regain formula might be under by 1 on p1999. Thanks for shedding some light on that -- I'd expected those numbers to be strictly server-generated.
when exactly were you diagnosed with 'aspergers syndrome'
Eh. It's simple curiosity. I'm a computer scientist.
then it would be completely trivial for you to set up an eq emu server where you could play with tools all you want. this thread is just more hax justification
I'm sure setting up an emulation wouldn't be completely trivial. I work full time and have a family. What time I have for fun goes into 1999.
I'm voicing honest opinion here, which includes some sympathy for hackers. In light of your more recent post, am I right to think that the aspergers comment was a personal attack?
im slightly retarded and i was able to set one up in 2 hours
WizardEQ
08-29-2011, 05:08 PM
I hate that bitch...pyzjn must die, even if she doesn't drop the GBS, I just want her dead.
Send me a tell in game. I know her deep, dark secrets. Five hourly installments of 2kpp should do the trick.
What's amazing about Pyzjn is that people think she spawns differently than every other named mob. I have a gift of pure eidetic memory and have been watching this tiny necro since Day 1; I have memorized every single pattern of movement she makes and when she makes it. She has secrets that are no different than anything else as long as you are observant. People believe in Astrology when they let emotions take over. Same with Pyzjn.
I may have been wrong to think it'd take longer to set up a server emulator. Even with the emulator, I'd still need tools to analyze client interactions. Also, a different client setup distinct from 1999 - a completely separate PC is probably best, in fact.
And no, I don't buy for a minute that you're slightly retarded. ;)
this thread is just more hax justification
It's intended to get people to think and post thoughtfully. Try it, mala.
purist
08-29-2011, 05:44 PM
lmao, vohl thinks this thread makes him a "deep thinker"
It's not so much that as I'm trying to get some sort of talk from the community that isn't "Burn the witch". I'm suprised nobody wants to talk about this in terms that aren't black and white.
Here's something new to consider. Everyone that plays on p1999 has decided, or simply ignores the notion that by playing on this server rather than "live" EQ, we're doing something questionable. I suspect that the anger against the hackers that I see here in some way is fueled by that knowledge. As the saying goes, we hate in others what we see in ourselves.
purist
08-29-2011, 06:59 PM
you're a deep thinker bro, your 3rd grader level of rationalizing cheating at an everquest emulator should be published in the next academic journal
RandySlopeJr
08-29-2011, 07:06 PM
When they going Disband guild like TMO for cheating,hacking and exploiting this server we all love?
Very nice rebuttal. Care to go into detail about how the cheaters have affected your fun?
Edit: The previous comment was @purist.
purist
08-29-2011, 07:35 PM
Care to go into detail about how the cheaters have affected your fun?
hm
whoa i'm stumped on that one bro, you truly are a modern day nietzsche tearing down our commonly held beliefs and instutitions
RandySlopeJr
08-29-2011, 07:37 PM
hm
whoa i'm stumped on that one bro, you truly are a modern day nietzsche tearing down our commonly held beliefs and instutitions
lol
What's funny here is that a poster is up in arms about cheating, yet cannot follow forums rules. Seriously - post something thoughtful yourself that isn't blatant bullying. What have you got to lose?
Excellio
08-29-2011, 08:27 PM
Care to go into detail about how the cheaters have affected your fun?
I actually was wondering about this question myself.
Like, now that they're all banned, my experience doesn't really feel that different. I still don't have thousands of plat just like I didn't when the cheaters were going on with their cheating selves. I don't have much luck with kiting in any zone that I try to kite in, in the same way that I wasn't great at kiting back when these guys were duping Fungi Tunics.
... Maybe I'm just lousy at EQ, hah!
I don't know, but really, I can't figure out how this type of cheating directly affected my experience. I'm sure that many other non-cheaters could make the case that the cheaters diminished the experience for them. The truth is, I probably bought gear off of a cheater at a discount price that only a cheater could afford to sell stuff for. I don't know this for sure, and I actually don't have any great gear, so I guess I probably didn't do this.
But now that I think about it further, I do understand why cheating is so frowned upon. If it was accepted, everyone would be doing it and those of us who weren't would not have a game to play when we logged in. And then you'd end up with a watered down version of EQ reminiscent of playing Diablo 1 on the old battle.net thing, where absolutely everyone was using a trainer program.
I guess what I'm asking is for someone to explain how these players using these prohibited programs have affected my experience on P99, and what can I expect to change now that they're not doing it anymore.
Convict
08-29-2011, 08:33 PM
It's already been established that cheating on a blue server doesn't directly affect the rest of the population as much as it does on a red server.
That doesn't make it any less against the rules.
Excellio
08-29-2011, 08:34 PM
It's already been established that cheating on a blue server doesn't directly affect the rest of the population as much as it does on a red server.
That doesn't make it any less against the rules.
Makes sense.
I'd have to say that most people here were raised with the notion of good sportsmanship. Play by the rules, respect the game, and so on. The notion of people not doing so probably comes across as a strangely personal betrayal to some of the player base.
I think that, to a lesser extent, some people are looking for a way to increase their standing at the detriment of others. Social dominance games are also part of animal nature.
Excellio
08-29-2011, 08:48 PM
Social dominance games are also part of animal nature.
The irony is that even the guy who cheats will likely regret having done so after some time when he accomplishes too much within the game in a short time.
I've noticed that when I play a game like Final Fantasy Tactics (which I play pretty frequently since it's the best game ever made, ever), if I start a new game, play it totally legit, I enjoy the heck out of it and work to accomplish stuff in the game. But when I make use of the glitches to cheat (duping items, learning abilities for free), I just build a super team of characters in the first 2 hours of gameplay, try them out in a fight or two, then get bored with it and never play that save again. The same is true of a game like The Sims. When I build a house by using the money cheat a whole bunch, I spend a lot of time designing an awesome house since I have unlimited money. But then I don't really play the game after designing the house. When I start a game with no cheats, I end up getting a lot more enjoyable time playing than I do when I use cheats.
I'm sure the same must be true of EverQuest. Having never cheated on EverQuest, I can't say this for sure, but it seems like this would be the case.
RandySlopeJr
08-29-2011, 08:50 PM
Why you think TMO is getting away with cheating,hacking, an exploiting server?
Excellio
08-29-2011, 08:53 PM
Why you think TMO is getting away with cheating,hacking, an exploiting server?
I have no idea what TMO is, and therefore have no idea why they're getting away with doing these things.
stormlord
08-29-2011, 09:21 PM
Eh. It's simple curiosity. I'm a computer scientist.
While I did get a 2 year degree in microcomputer programming and networking and have programmed quite a bit off and on in different languages, I have not actually held a job in the computer science field. But I, similarly, understand your impulses. But all of these questions can be answered by going to the eqemulator site and downloading the code and database to run locally. There's no need to hack p1999 to do this.
Mbaulmer
08-29-2011, 09:25 PM
Very nice rebuttal. Care to go into detail about how the cheaters have affected your fun?
Its not the fact that those who cheated directly affected what I do in game.
How do I know one of the random people in the PUG I join isn't in some way using 3rd party software and we as a group benefit from it. Or if I am in a zone looking for a PH spawn that roams and some person beats me to it. Were they more observant on the PH's path or were they using something to lead them directly to the mob. (just as a couple of examples)
The fact that cheaters were found active on the server makes scenarios like this plausible. And thats how it affects the general population.
Regarding the TMO question, it may well be a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" argument. I think Rogean posted something about a powerful guild not having action taken against it during the suspension announcement. I'm inclined to take him at his word if this applies to TMO.
abedog
08-29-2011, 10:03 PM
As the saying goes, we hate in others what we see in ourselves.
Amen.
vageta31
08-29-2011, 10:54 PM
Its not the fact that those who cheated directly affected what I do in game.
How do I know one of the random people in the PUG I join isn't in some way using 3rd party software and we as a group benefit from it. Or if I am in a zone looking for a PH spawn that roams and some person beats me to it. Were they more observant on the PH's path or were they using something to lead them directly to the mob. (just as a couple of examples)
The fact that cheaters were found active on the server makes scenarios like this plausible. And thats how it affects the general population.
Guarantee both scenarios have happened, especially scenario number 1. Perhaps that awesome puller in the OT was using tracking to get the best mobs and your exp was better that night than usual. Or the guy in the dungeon who joined the group and wanted to camp a specific camp, and oh surprise the mob is up?!
I wouldn't worry about it, if you legitimately didn't know what does it matter? I'm sure even in RL we all benefit from ill gotten things without realizing it. If you bought an LCD tv off of craigslist for a really good price and later found out it was looted off of a Best Buy truck, would you turn it into the cops if you knew no one else would know?
Striiker
08-30-2011, 09:54 AM
I've never looked but aren't there other EMU servers on the server list which aren't hung up on people using hacks to play around? I think there's one with all or most of the GM commands available to players. Why not hop onto one of those servers to play with the tools? I'd advise going out of your way to make sure that you do not impact your P1999 play time by either using separate computer to play with these tools from or at least use some sandbox software to isolate the tools etc. on your normal play computer. This way, there will not be any chance of leaving the tools on by accident or something.
Very nice rebuttal. Care to go into detail about how the cheaters have affected your fun?
Its not like these hacking players sat and corpse camped anyone, but ive sat and seen the effects of these hacks first hand. While lvling up in SK i sat and watched a TR cleric camp a lev cloak with startling accuracy, while this doesnt effect me first hand, its still bullshit watching someone bend the rules in their favor. Which brings the notion to the table, "if he did it why cant I?", which is just not the kind of atmosphere p99 needs.
As far as using these tools to pick apart the server code or dig deeper into things, i don't think this should be tolerated either. Most (if not all) of this information can be found just by digging around alla or simply asking other players, there should be no need to pick away at the code just because you feel the need to know. You think movie directors let people stand on set just to gain insight on how movies are made? or musicians let people stand in the studio to watch them compose/play music?
If you have inquires beyond what is presented in front of you than find a way to answer your questions that doesn't infringe on what the dev's here are trying to do, which is create a level playing field for us to all enjoy what we remember as EQ in 1999.
Herky
08-30-2011, 10:51 AM
This forum community sure seems full of know-it-all jerks.
Reading up on EQEmu and playing on a cheats-allowed server are some nice ideas - I'm sure I'll be putting them into play. :)
Mullling over the whole morality thing, some jerk ran a stop sign in front of me this morning. I had two choices - to brake and let them pass, or to pull in front of them and get hit. I had a few choice things to say as well.
Why would someone who broke the rules and got away with it in the big blue zone bug me? I suppose the consequences for his actions are quite a bit more concrete. Had I been less alert and proceeded when my turn at the 4-way came around, my care would be damaged and I might be hurt. This person also poses a genuine threat to others in the area. Children often ride bikes across this intersection.
Maybe some of us think differently, though, lumping anyone they see doing this sort of thing as a shitbag, then saving up their displeasure for when someone gets caught doing this sort of thing. I know I've cracked a smile when I've seen someone pulled over in the carpool lane with nobody else riding. I'm guessing this reaction could be far more intense with others in the p1999 community.
Extunarian
08-30-2011, 10:57 AM
As the saying goes, we hate in others what we see in ourselves.
Amen.
Don't amen this. It was a total strawman argument to try to make cheating seem 'not as bad as we think it is.'
Thanks for the post, mala. I'm not sure about how Quillmane has a big impact, but server attitude is a different matter. I care about that as well.
This forum community sure seems full of know-it-all jerks.
How are people being jerks?
@Extunarian: Quoting "not as bad as we think it is," is misleading. I don't think I ever said that. I'm hoping to talk about what is bad or otherwise about cheating as well as get some insight into why the backlash is as nasty as it seems.
I don't feel particularly outraged, especially in light of the measures taken by GMs. Quite a few very vocal posters here clearly think otherwise.
Atmas
08-30-2011, 11:06 AM
Not really sure why people are jumping all over Vohl. A simple "Hey you can view the source code for the Emu project" would suffice. Wanting to know how something works doesn't constitute as intent to do it.
Plenty of people watch CSI and probably aren't thinking about how they could use the information to get away with murdering someone.
On the other topic of this thread, other people cheating impacts you plenty wether or not you realize it. It may be something miniscule like not having a chance to get Quillimane cloak or some other item because they can lock it down. Or it may be another group dominating the xp in a zone/area because they are aware of all mob spawns or getting additional benefits in combat. It may be it's harder for you to buy gear because prices get inflated by the plat they generate. Or it may even be you spent extra hours trying to obtain an item (like a seb key) because someone else warped/ran to mob and killed it.
It may not be as obvious as in PvP where someone warps on to your face but since we are playing in the same enviornment and vying for the same resources it definitely can have an impact on you.
Mullling over the whole morality thing, some jerk ran a stop sign in front of me this morning. I had two choices - to brake and let them pass, or to pull in front of them and get hit. I had a few choice things to say as well.
Why would someone who broke the rules and got away with it in the big blue zone bug me? I suppose the consequences for his actions are quite a bit more concrete. Had I been less alert and proceeded when my turn at the 4-way came around, my care would be damaged and I might be hurt. This person also poses a genuine threat to others in the area. Children often ride bikes across this intersection.
Although i can see slight parallels in someone disobeying traffic laws and someone cheating a server, comparing the two is ridiculous. When driving a car i know that i can speed and the repercussions of which would be a ticket, we all know how a car and traffic laws work. Im sure a fair amount of the people that play here had no idea these hacks even existed (i didnt), and especially to the extent of what they can do. Now if i saw someone flying down the road going 400mph in a honda civic id prolly have some questions. THAT would be comparable to seeing a cleric on here tracking down mobs in SK, people clearly bending the rules of whats possible. I had no idea you could even use a tracking program, so where would i begin to ask?
Breaking the rules is one thing, using a 3rd party program to completely twist the physics of the world is a complete other crock of shit.
And using the traffic ticket scenario once more, i think these people caught cheating should be banned outright, just as the disclaimer in the rules states. If im caught running down a pedestrian, im gunna goto jail, regardless of how many other drivers are mowing down pedestrians with me at the time.
Aadill
08-30-2011, 11:31 AM
people clearly bending the rules of whats possible. I had no idea you could even use a tracking program, so where would i begin to ask?
Instead of trying to track the mob, you must first realize that there is no mob to track.
Don't take the red pill :(
The Hackney riots come to mind.
A lot of people did a lot of illegal things - looting, vandalism, assault and worse. British parliament had a fairly spirited discussion about how the legal precedings would be handled. Among other things, there was the question of whether or not the event qualified as civil unrest due to a failure of the state.
It apparently did not; parliament decided on regular law enforcement. Still, it's a recent example of the scope of a problem calling for the consideration of exceptional enforcement.
I'm a bit surprised that cheating is seen as worse in context than cutting someone off in traffic. The potential consequences seem worse by far to me when considering what a half ton chunk of metal could do.
Aadill
08-30-2011, 11:59 AM
I'm a bit surprised that cheating is seen as worse in context than cutting someone off in traffic. The potential consequences seem worse by far to me when considering what a half ton chunk of metal could do.
Well we're talking in the server-specific section on an emulated Everquest-related server board, not an automotive forum.
Serious business only applies in those areas where serious business should be applied.
superapan
08-30-2011, 12:10 PM
Most MQ-users didn't wanna get caught, and thus only used the "safe" plugins, mostly being the map. The fungi-duping is just nonsense.
Extunarian
08-30-2011, 12:16 PM
I'm a bit surprised that cheating is seen as worse in context than cutting someone off in traffic. The potential consequences seem worse by far to me when considering what a half ton chunk of metal could do.
The consequences are certainly worse, it's the motive that people dislike. It takes half a second to cut someone off. Cheating takes effort and preparation especially if you don't want to be caught.
I liken it to someone cheating in one of those gigantic 100-level college courses. Does it hurt me? No, assuming a curve isn't being used, but it is still unethical, and it would still make me furious that someone was getting the same credit that I was without putting in the same amount of work.
The motive seems to be there in either case, but I see what you mean. The difference is in the preparation. "Premeditation" is the word used in court.
Extunarian
08-30-2011, 12:31 PM
The motive seems to be there in either case, but I see what you mean. The difference is in the preparation. "Premeditation" is the word used in court.
Heh..I guess when I cut people off I never plan to. My truck has abnormal blindspots.
mangos756
08-31-2011, 11:46 PM
Thank You.
pragmus
09-01-2011, 02:44 AM
As the saying goes, we hate in others what we see in ourselves. Amen. Don't amen this. It was a total strawman argument to try to make cheating seem 'not as bad as we think it is.'
Apparently the only valid argument is one that agrees with his philosophies. If he doesn't like what it's getting at then it's wrong. Google humility. You can't always be right, and for those times when you aren't it would behoove you to not present yourself as a douche.
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