Discussion: Loot and Scoot (LnS)

[Rogean]

Reserved.

[Rogean]

Reserved.

[Tonomar]

Let the guilds work this one out, I think it just puts way too much stress on the server staff if they have to worry about bullshit.

[Rogean]

What were the rules on each of the eqlive zek servers regarding this, and how did the community treat it.

[Naikon]

no gm enforced rules on lns, bind camping, or corpse camping.

most of the community will be reasonable and the staff should be spared whatever grief possible

[Tonomar]

All i remember from TZ was pdm raping everyone and doing basically whatever they wanted. From previous boxes, I can say that letting guilds do as they pleased was definitely the best. Even though we all act like complete morons most of the time, I think civil rules can be laid out among the top couple.

[Jerin]

For the general population on TZ lvls 1-45, iirc Loot n scoot worked well.

I don't remember people being dicks about corpse retrieval that often,
unless the victim was being a dick and felt the need to whine/bitch/moan and talk shit.

Then you may have to kill a naked man

[Bardalicious]

What were the rules on each of the eqlive zek servers regarding this, and how did the community treat it.

Rallos Zek originally adhered strictly to PNP-style rules. By which I mean any of the following would be considered against the rules:

Training
Intentional XP Loss
Corpse Camping
Zone Line Camping
General Griefing

At one point, killing players that were trying to hide under the protection of guards was considered against the PNP as well, though it was quickly forgotten as being impractical to expect players to not attack from range the people hiding at guards.

These were mostly player-enforced rules, but the constant threat of being banned was usually enough of an incentive to keep people mostly in line. Being that you seem to be leaning away from a RZ-style of PVP server, coupled with the type of player that comprise the EQEmu PVP community at large, I somewhat doubt it will work to expect players to govern themselves like they used to.

[pasi]

No GM enforced rules on this. This kind of goes together with bind camping.

[Cwall]

I think allowing players to enforce LnS will make reputation more important on the server, and people seem pretty good about allowing LnS anyway.

[Marglar]

no gm enforced rules on lns, bind camping, or corpse camping.

most of the community will be reasonable and the staff should be spared whatever grief possible

this. trust me, it seems harsh, but it works itself out in the end and creates reputation. eventually guilds start an understanding with one another and they either allow one another to loot and scoot after losing a battle for a mob, or they get corpse camped until the winning guild is finished : P

[Pudge]

just a copy/paste of what i wrote under the PnP thread, before i realized this one existed:

LnS: on vztz by the end of the server we wound up with: if the losing guild requests LnS, it must be granted, and the loser cannot come back for 1 hour. so if the loser wanted to try and keep fighting, he could. when he had enough, he could request LnS. in guild pvp, the officers or someone claiming to be in charge would call the LnS, and it would be for the entire guild/crew (guilds like to have unguilded 'members' on pvp servers).

however back in the day I also enjoyed trying to get my corpse from corpse campers. i don't know how many ppl would prefer an LnS system over corpse-campage though, especially with exp loss on pvp death.

Right now, i'm leaning towards... let ppl corpse camp. whoever died can log on an alt or something and wait till the camper is gone.

but this also ties in with /whoing ppl who are anon. i'd rather /anon didn't work and that you could tell when someone was done corpse camping you... (on vztz /anon didn't work)

[Aenor]

Was mostly player enforced on Vallon Zek live. Few people bind rushed because you would get a reputation and soon find LnS no longer offered. Here again, the less gm enforcement required the better. Let the players self enforce until you see that it's not working, then step in if you see a need.

[Envious]

LnS should be earned by each guild and player through reputation.

Having any official (Staff or guild created) causes nothing but staff grief and will be such a flood of shit its not even remotely fucking worth it.

Let the players that play with respect, be treated with such by their peers. Players that are shitheads, talk shit after dying, or a general fucking annoyance, be griefed.

[Nyrod]

you wont hear this enough because of the vocal minority wanting it, but if you remove server wide pvp yellow txt and server wide /ooc or chat channels you will completely change the social dynamics of everything from shit between end game guilds and between groups or solo players.

sure it happens on the forums but at a millionth the degree it did in game on vztz and it just created a cesspool of drama and griefing that made the community very tasteless

not many people can handle it in game, you can ignore the forums

personally i really thought it was fucking funny but it didnt help with the stress load on GM's or help people be civil with each other

[Lazortag]

you wont hear this enough because of the vocal minority wanting it, but if you remove server wide pvp yellow txt and server wide /ooc or chat channels you will completely change the social dynamics of everything from shit between end game guilds and between groups or solo players.

sure it happens on the forums but at a millionth the degree it did in game on vztz and it just created a cesspool of drama and griefing that made the community very tasteless

not many people can handle it in game, you can ignore the forums

personally i really thought it was fucking funny but it didnt help with the stress load on GM's or help people be civil with each other

I completely agree with this.

I think this is really important and needs to be considered.

[Vile]

you wont hear this enough because of the vocal minority wanting it, but if you remove server wide pvp yellow txt and server wide /ooc or chat channels you will completely change the social dynamics of everything from shit between end game guilds and between groups or solo players.


^Agreed

[Naikon]

Yes to server wide yellow text pvp kill messages

They are widely liked and by themselves don't cause a significant increase in chat grief

No to server wide OOC

Server wide OOC is entirely dependent on server pop it helps out low pop servers, but when the pop gets high it should be taken out. It is also the source for the majority of chat grief.

[Amuk]

I think people expect too much of LNS, usually if you ask and don't have any past history - the people will let you loot and scoot unless going for a raid mob and locking a zone down. I don't see any need to make it GM enforced - maybe for certain zones like Plane of Hate/Plane of fear you could make a loot and scoot for 6+ hours rule much like the vz/tz one? On live we would usually res the guild we killed in hate/fear and they would port out for the night. I don't really know if that would work either but for any zone such as Lguk/solb/anywhere else you can basically just log off and come back later worst case.

[Rushmore]

I liked the LNS rules we had going on VZTZ.

You shouldn't have to give up and ask for LNS but if you do...

You loot up and not enter the zone for an hour.

I like this policy and people caught breaking it would be suspended etc.

Raids worked the same way. Guild Leaders would work it out....the losing guild would loot up and leave zone for an hour.

[Doors]

LnS is almost impossible to enforce. People flat out are more often than not going to ignore LnS rules. You're going to save yourself one giant fucking headache by just not enforcing a LnS policy.

[Rushmore]

Leave it up to the community to work out for themselves.

[vinx]

Everyone hit the nail on the head so far..There was never any official LnS server rules back on live.
LnS was player created and maintained. Allowed/Denied between winner and loser.

examples:
* raid - worked itself out civilly between guilds unless one guild was "known" for having members that like to loot and continue interupting = denied/griefed/CC'd
*players - asked and either allowed/denied. again if looter wont stop until he wins = player gains a reputation and climbs high on the KOS/grief/CC ladder of others.

People still grief when they lose however, but LnS basically works itself

[Salty]

THERE WILL BE NO LNS FROM BIG SALTY

[SearyxTZ]

Player-enforced LNS

Yes to server wide yellow text pvp kill messages

They are widely liked and by themselves don't cause a significant increase in chat grief

No to server wide OOC

Server wide OOC is entirely dependent on server pop it helps out low pop servers, but when the pop gets high it should be taken out. It is also the source for the majority of chat grief.


Agreed on the broadcasts. It's a win-win feature and I'd be disappointed if it was taken out.


But.... "Chat grief"?

Trash talking and rivalries (friendly or otherwise) have always been important parts of EQ PvP servers.

I don't see the population getting anywhere near P1999 for this, so I would certainly hope that serverwide OOC stays in. You can easily turn the ooc filter off if you don't like it. :)

[Macken]

redundant post. trying to cover all the threads.

Serious post, minimum trolling.

Listen to me now, or believe me later.

Do not make any rules that aren't hard coded. (except maybe training)

You and your staff will thank me later.

Free Trade PvP.

[Macken]

Unintended Consequences.

Google.

[Smedy]

I think LNS should be solved by the players aka have no rules, let the players decide what to do about the situation.

[Arillious]

Can't believe everyone is actually in agreement on this. Let the players handle LnS. This has ALWAYS worked itself out both on eqlive and the previous eqemu servers.

This kind goes along with the idea of zone control in group or mass pvp.

If 2 guilds are fighting for a zone then naked player's from either guild entering the zone should be killed immediatly. They should not be able to enter until one of the guilds throws the towel in and requests LnS. Having naked players re-enter a contested zone causes to much confusion. At that point, the guild that gave up should not be able to enter the zone again for AT LEAST an hour. The players can work out the time though.

I also like the idea of players being able to type /LNS to put an LNS tag next to their name similar to /afk. On live, we would use the /afk tag to signify that the player was going to loot and then leave.

[Envious]

THERE WILL BE NO LNS FOR BIG SALTY

^Fixt.

Everyone should be in agreement about this, there have been more than a few of us pounding at this for 3 or 4 years. Only to be ignored by Gronkus, Keegan, Null, Voidd, and Searyx. And all those boxes eventually had players quit and the servers failed.

Partly because of shit admin, but a large part was that the GM staff kept trying to get involved. And it creates more problems than it solves.

[Tamiah2011]

Reserved.

RZ alway let player decide..But most loot and scooted.GM would sometimes enforced greifing not normally.They would tell you to exping somewere else.Using any type of race slander was about the only thing GM enforced.

[Kope]

I totally agree that LnS is best, and I will echo everyone else here, it needs to be enforced by the players. The GMs can't babysit us for every pvp encounter there is.

Serverwide OOC seems like a horrible idea. You shouldn't incentivise people's narcissistic ways, it just turns everyone else off.

[Scribbles]

serverwide ooc is literally the best

[Doors]

Gobal OOC might work depending on the server population. Don't forget red99 is going to be hosted by competent people, so I'm sure if idiots are trolling or spamming it they're going to have their privileges to use it taken away. The flaming and shit of old boxes won't be as widespread on this one and even when it does happen it won't be happening for long.

[Envious]

Global OOC is classic~

Use the forums for your mindless dribble of shit.

[Zeebbo]

*shrug*

LnS has always had a gray area. I personally like to see it enforced, but understand it being left up to the guilds.

Here's the thing, when a big mob is up, when you die, and the fight is still going on, are you going to just sit outside the zone and wait for it to be over? These fights can go on forever, I think until there's a complete wipe of a guild and complete zone control, anything goes (pvp wise, not training, obviously.)

[Envious]

Zeebbo, LnS being staff enforced will not work.

Will increase workload on staff, create frivolous petitions, and make ppl cry about when it is AND is not enforced.

[Keegan]

Some history about LNS, aka "The Iggles Treatment (http://thepurge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6293)" and one of the ways it was influenced on VZ (live):

I don't know if this has been written about. It's an old, core concept dating back to Vallon Zek.


In EQ, there was no real PvP death penalty which meant there was really no way to "win" a PvP battle. For example, when fighting for control of an area, it really didn't matter who won or lost the fight. Control ultimately fell to whoever gave up last. You could kill someone 50 times in a row and still "lose" the battle simply because you ran out of time and needed to log off, never having gotten to reap any benefits from your successful PvP because you had to spend all your time fighting the same person over and over and over.

EQ did sort of have one death penalty, though: corpse retrieval. When you died, all of your loot stayed on your corpse and you had to go pick it back up. Without your loot, you were pretty useless.


The guild I was in at the time was called "Da Bashin' Iggles". The original players all had "iggles" somewhere in their game. Squiggles. Quiggles. Wiggles. Diggles. Etc. I was Slamz. ... Well, I joined them after the fact.

Anyway, we were all pretty serious about PvP. We didn't like the fact that victory was meaningless. We thought that if you defeated someone in a fight for control of an area that you ought to win control through that victory.

To arrange this, we (Diggles?) invented....The Iggles Treatment.

Technically, I think it was frowned upon by the GMs but they rarely commented on it, since we always gave people an easy way out:
We will let you loot your corpse and get your stuff back if you agree to leave this area.

If you refuse to accept this agreement, we will kill you before you finish looting and then you'll have two corpses.

If you accept the agreement, loot your stuff and then break the agreement by attacking us, then you're not getting your stuff back until we get bored of killing you.

And we didn't bore easily.

The real reason the Iggles Treatment worked, in fact, is that we were perfectly content to stand there and kill someone for 2 hours straight if they refused the agreement or broke it. Many a jolly conversation with GMs involved us describing the rules to the GM while simultaniously continuing to kill whoever it was that sent in the complaint.


The Iggles Treatment survives still to other games, generally referring to the justified corpsecamping of another player.

For example, if a Hunter in WOW just will not leave you alone but instead keeps reviving and attacking you, it's time for Igglestreatment: everyone drops what they're doing and dedicates themselves to corspecamping the Hunter until he goes away.


Igglestreatment is about the rights of players to police themselves, creating their own rules to make a game playable where the game designers left a gaping hole that threatens to make the game unplayable.

Hindsight is 20/20. :(

[Salty]

On red99, I'm going to drop my wiener on your forehead Keegan.

[Scribbles]

keegan sells male fuckdolls for a living ehehehehe

[Arillious]

Some history about LNS, aka "The Iggles Treatment (http://thepurge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6293)" and one of the ways it was influenced on VZ (live):



Hindsight is 20/20. :(

I remember the Iggles well on VZ. I actually played with them on ShadowBane for a while after Torrent(My VZ Guild) gave up on EQ.

Either way, this general ruleset worked on VZ for years. It puts the power completely in control of the players and requires no GM involvement.

[lethdar]

I remember the Iggles well on VZ. I actually played with them on ShadowBane for a while after Torrent(My VZ Guild) gave up on EQ.

Either way, this general ruleset worked on VZ for years. It puts the power completely in control of the players and requires no GM involvement.

I remember the Iggles well on SZ. They would cry up a storm when you shit on them and cry about some treatment, i guess that's what they were talking about.

This ruleset didn't work on a server with no rules, it only made training them more entertaining because of their cries about honor and weird roleplay tears.

[Kope]

So to sum up what everyone is saying:

Yes LnS should probably be a rule of the server, but it should not be enforced by the GMs, it should be enforced by the playerbase?

[lethdar]

I expect the server will start with player enforced LnS, which will soon be changed once enough people get sick of being powerless to stop griefers from CCing them all day as things such as player reputation are meaningless when there is a high enough portion of the server that doesn't care or even values traits such as those.

[Kope]

I expect the server will start with player enforced LnS, which will soon be changed once enough people get sick of being powerless to stop griefers from CCing them all day as things such as player reputation are meaningless when there is a high enough portion of the server that doesn't care or even values traits such as those.

You're getting into psychology now and talking about the prison scenario.

If a rule benefits the whole, there will always be the few that will break that rule to benefit themselves, and in doing so removes the rule for the whole eventually.

[Harrison]

He has a point, though. This is exactly what will happen.

If there's a rule someone can ignore, because it won't be enforced via suspensions and/or bans, they will.

Player enforced doesn't work in a F2P environment, ever.

[vinx]

Some of you dont even know what LnS is even if the explanation is right there in front of you

I expect the server will start with player enforced LnS, which will soon be changed once enough people get sick of being powerless to stop griefers from CCing them all day
Even in a LnS environment this = a denied LnS
which means, no you cant loot your corpse... come try and get it and you will be CC'd
you only feel powerless if you continue going back to that zone and stupid enough to let them continue doing this to you
CCing != bind camping


so what happens if they dont respond to a LnS and you die a few times on return??
now the person has to play an alt or log and take a break until whoever leaves zone


player reputation are meaningless when there is a high enough portion of the server that doesn't care or even values traits such as those.
Disagree here,
Even without LnS some people or some guild/crew will allow a few exemptions = LnS for a select few you may like, or situation
you cant deny that this will happen and thus allowing LnS even when you are so strongly against it.

Theres a reason LnS is player maintained...
because if it was a server rule... then you have to let idiots come in for their corpse or they send in petitions because its a rule
then they are back after GMs leave and continue to harass you
there are to many times idiots like these dont deserve their corpse
they get what they deserve

[vinx]

If there's a rule someone can ignore, because it won't be enforced via suspensions and/or bans, they will.
Obv
there are alot of times you dont get LnS and there are players known for NO LnS graces

Player enforced doesn't work in a F2P environment, ever.
until that day your CC'd when returning to zone for your corpse

[juicedsixfo]

I know it's most likely not even an option, but corpse summoners really were a great implementation down the road in EQ, especially for PvP. But I don't think Red99 is even going to have soul binder NPCs, so probably not worth the discussion... but a corpse summoner in the starting cities with a 30 minute timer would make all the drama over proposed LnS null and void.

[vinx]

I know it's most likely not even an option, but corpse summoners really were a great implementation down the road in EQ, especially for PvP. But I don't think Red99 is even going to have soul binder NPCs, so probably not worth the discussion... but a corpse summoner in the starting cities with a 30 minute timer would make all the drama over proposed LnS null and void.
you thought so? i thought it opened the door for someone to keep comin back into zone and heckling you every so often
CCin and denied LnS kept em out
(until they came in with higher levels or bigger crew)

I seriously dont mind jumpin on alts for a few hours or even for a day lol
(if you cant rustle up some help to retrieve it)

[vinx]

I used to deny right off the bat just cuz im as paranoid as everyone else on the server heh
unless i knew them or they sounded cool

but i did meet a few friends from pvp and denying LnS, or even having LnS itself gets you into tells with the other party \
(did meet alot of jackasses this way also)
but some people are cool and some beg and offer you stuff lol
hahah, but srsly its a good way to interact besides /ooc

[Galacticus]

LnS is a waste of time to try to enforce.

The basic issue comes down to the person trying to get their corpse. If that person is trying to get their body and someone is wasting their time to stop them then there are a few possible scenarios.

A) The person camping your body is a fucking retard. His/her entertainment is based on hurting your experience in the game. If someone is doing that, only you are allowing them to do that to you. If you stop playing, or go on an alt or dont feed the satisfaction of that retard, then they will stop because you arent there to feed him anymore. Its not hard to log on an alt or wait 5 min or whatever to avoid this guy.

B) You are a fucking retard and have been being a dick to this guy and he wants revenge. Lucky for you he might be wasting his time because since you have already been a dick and you deserve to be hassled. If you learned your lesson, go to scenario A.

C) You are able to get your body.

[vinx]

LnS is a waste of time to try to enforce.

The basic issue comes down to the person trying to get their corpse. If that person is trying to get their body and someone is wasting their time to stop them then there are a few possible scenarios.

A) The person camping your body is a fucking retard. His/her entertainment is based on hurting your experience in the game. If someone is doing that, only you are allowing them to do that to you. If you stop playing, or go on an alt or dont feed the satisfaction of that retard, then they will stop because you arent there to feed him anymore. Its not hard to log on an alt or wait 5 min or whatever to avoid this guy.

B) You are a fucking retard and have been being a dick to this guy and he wants revenge. Lucky for you he might be wasting his time because since you have already been a dick and you deserve to be hassled. If you learned your lesson, go to scenario A.

C) You are able to get your body.
Finally!!!
someone who makes sense! liked your other post also
I agree it would be to hard to enforce if it was a server rule and to hard for staff to sift thru

[Vile]

LnS is a waste of time to try to enforce.

The basic issue comes down to the person trying to get their corpse. If that person is trying to get their body and someone is wasting their time to stop them then there are a few possible scenarios.

A) The person camping your body is a fucking retard. His/her entertainment is based on hurting your experience in the game. If someone is doing that, only you are allowing them to do that to you. If you stop playing, or go on an alt or dont feed the satisfaction of that retard, then they will stop because you arent there to feed him anymore. Its not hard to log on an alt or wait 5 min or whatever to avoid this guy.

B) You are a fucking retard and have been being a dick to this guy and he wants revenge. Lucky for you he might be wasting his time because since you have already been a dick and you deserve to be hassled. If you learned your lesson, go to scenario A.

C) You are able to get your body.

Pretty accurate ^^^^^^

[johnny ringo]

PRISON RULES PVP

NO TEAMS
NO GUILDS
NO GROUPING
FULL ITEM LOOT
STRAIGHT GANG BANGIN

[Buhbuh]

Players work this out on a case by case basis. If it's becoming an actual problem for someone to get their corpse within a timely manner (I won't define timely), GM's can intervene, no problems.

GM's just need to look out for assholery on all issues in game and end it promptly. I think knowing that GM's will intervene in some serious cases of any issue is almost enough to keep most in check.

With hacking you're flat out diligent, no mercy. People know Rogean and Nilbog aren't fucking around. And if you think they are jokesters about it, try them. SEE WHAT HAPPENS

[Humerox]

There'd have to be a sh**load of guides. LNS is best handled by server population, period.

If the server is successful, and I hope it will be, GM staff is going to have to let a LOT of stuff work out by itself. A moderately thick skin is required for any serious PvP.

[Galacticus]

PRISON RULES PVP

NO TEAMS
NO GUILDS
NO GROUPING
FULL ITEM LOOT
STRAIGHT GANG BANGIN

NO NPCS
NO MONSTERS
NO WALLS
ONLY SHOWERS
RACIALLY SEGREGATED
EVERYONE STARTS WITH SHIV
EVERYONE STARTS WITH PRISON ROBE
WATCHED CONSTANTLY BY SECURITY GUARDS

[Yukahwa]

Loot and Scoot has to be a RULE and then it can be enforced..simple as that. Even if it isn't enforced all the time, the punishment will be severe enough to keep it from happening. The population can't always enforce it.

It will create more work, having rules always does. But corpse camping isn't a lot of fun. If the player sticks around, then obviously you can kill them again. Killing a naked player repeatedly is never neccesary..but if that player has grabbed so much aggro from you that you decide to corpse camp him...then you take the risk of GM retribution

[Envious]

It will create more work, having rules always does. But corpse camping isn't a lot of fun. If the player sticks around, then obviously you can kill them again. Killing a naked player repeatedly is never neccesary..but if that player has grabbed so much aggro from you that you decide to corpse camp him...then you take the risk of GM retribution

You sound blue.

You blue?

[lethdar]

Again, I prefer non GM enforced LNS, however I am quite sure considering this has happened in pretty much every emu pvp server once the tears hit a critical mass that there will eventually be a rule implemented to protect the babies.

The important thing is that there be crystal clear rules once the server goes live. If LnS is not GM enforced then there shouldn't ever be GMs suspending someone for jerking off to an 8 hour corpse camp. If LnS is player enforced then there needs to be clear that GMs wont interfere no matter how dickish a player is in their obeying of them.

[Humerox]

Player-enforced LNS promotes PNP. "May I please LNS, sir?" goes a hell of a lot further than " You piece of %^%, I'm reporting your #@@."

If anyone wants an LNS and does anything other than PNP...they deserve what they get.

GM's will be banning, suspending and wasting a hell of a lot of time enforcing stuff that's better left to the players, and the whiny-#@@ biznatches that can't handle a little grief don't need to be playing PvP, anyway. Besides, if it was team-based, they might be able to call a few people in to help. (hadda throw it in.)

[Nirgon]

People will complain about it enforced or not, better to ignore it. There's more important things to do.

Further, I'd consider your ruleset of what involves being the fucktard police and what involves maintaining things that are viable.

[Yukahwa]

Obviously the problem can be handled without GM intervention. Anyone getting sat on can just log out for a while and grab his corpse later.. problem solved. I can imagine cases where more than that might be necessary, so a rule wouldn't be a bad idea IMO. LNS just allows the dominated player to accept their loss and go find another place to hunt or be killed.

[Buhbuh]

LnS is maybe 0.1% of the time a GM related/ needed issue. Players have it covered.

[Yukahwa]

Thats why its okay to have rules discouraging it further so that those that defy the social norm can be punished in whatever way. Almost all of the time..like you said, it won't be any sort of issue.

[Harrison]

"It isn't even an issue 99% of the time!"

*rule enforcing LnS discussed as a possibility*

"RAAAAGE OMG THATS SO DUMB IT WILL FILL UP PETITIONS"

You guys are fucking geniuses.

[beentheredonethat]

what is LNS and PNP? I've played eq years ago, so don't remember most of the terms anymore.

[Humerox]

loot and scoot
play nice policy

[beentheredonethat]

thanks, i know what acronyms stand for (i saw it in the thread). I just don't know what it means.

pnp I'm assuming an honor code for "dont intentionally piss people off". but I have no idea what lns is.

[Humerox]

thanks, i know what acronyms stand for (i saw it in the thread). I just don't know what it means.

pnp I'm assuming an honor code for "dont intentionally piss people off". but I have no idea what lns is.

Ahhh...

Loot and scoot meant that a player - or group of players - would allow you to recover your corpse after he/they killed you, provided you left the zone as a result of your loss. You would generally /tell them with "LnS?",and he/they would either be nice and say "come and loot up"...or not...meaning you risked being rekilled if you attempted a recovery without help.

Play nice policy was actually a SOE policy that covered multiple issues like training, camps, etc. A bunch of rules...PnP later evolved to mean just be cool with everybody and don't be an idiot. My interpretation, anyway.

[Envious]

"It isn't even an issue 99% of the time!"

*rule enforcing LnS discussed as a possibility*

"RAAAAGE OMG THATS SO DUMB IT WILL FILL UP PETITIONS"

You guys are fucking geniuses.

Ask Sirken how much of his time was consumed with idiotic PnP shit. It burned out several GMs, and eventually the corrupt GM / favoritism / frivilious petitions got him too (if I am not mistaken, I seem to remember him quitting but was done with VZ/TZ at that time).

[dusk883]

On Tallon Zek (didn't read any other replies here so don't if this is covered), the LnS "rule" was in no way "enforced" by anyone but by players/guilds - at least for Naggy and under mobs even if there was some funny drama with the Naggy/Vox events.

On TZ through Kunark, my experience remembers that you could do whatever you and your guild wanted to do. Corpse Camping, train, whatever. I'm sure there was SOME intervention maybe here and there but it wasn't until Frogs were in the game when we had some eyes on the server. I was caught in GF as my Frog wiz standing in a puddle of a certain player's corpses before I had my first, "You can't do that. We'll see you in 3 days!" and boom I was gone.

The player enforced "rule of law" worked well, IMHO, at least at the lower levels. I spent only a little time in the Planes during EQ/Kunark days and it was pretty much the same there, too. In fact, I think it added to the fun as I remember at least 1 guild was created to chase assholes, CCers, BCer's, etc. The Knights of the White Rose one time zoned into a Hate (or Fear) guild raid I was in one time and ooc'ed something to the effect of, "WE FOUND YOU.... TONIGHT you die and we avenge those who you BR'd, CCed blah blah blah"... well, they failed that night but it was certainly an "oh SHIT" moment when they zoned in after us.

My opinion: we don't need babysitting, the rule of law will find its own culture by the players. Adds drama to the game and we all love game drama I think.

[dusk883]

Additional: I don't think CC'ing should be "illegal" either. If someone's going to CC you, just log out and level up your alt for an hour. I found it amazing how many times a player will fall into the trap of getting his corpse knowing he'll get ganked again, not that I did a lot of CC'ing (guild tag would decide that, or if your name was Xcelon) but the guild chat whines, 'I've been tryin to get my corpse for 4 hrs1!?" Really? IMO you bring a friend when needed or just play a diff char for a while. CC'ing brings the potential for bigger pvp fights, too. One guild vs another over some level 12 corpse camping, sometimes you could get 20 vs 20 fights.

Then again, if there's exp loss for pvp death, then that maybe changes the stakes. No exp loss for pvp death? Let the players do what they do. Liberty baby.

[Envious]

What Dusk883 said.

[Arshis]

Tallon Zek
Loot and Scoot is a player rule. Not all guilds/players honored this rule and for good reason. (see more @ A) The only time I had ever seem a GM intervene with Pandemonium's (a Tallon Zek Guild) obsessive corpse camping habits were during POP when we started to take shifts corpse camping 'notable' players in opposing guilds. We literally camped corpses of singular players until they rotted, in return officers got yelled at by GM's (threats to disband the guild were made) and the persons corpse who was camped was refunded their equipment. I remember being corpse camped for 3 days myself, petitioning just wasn't something people did back then because we know GM's wouldn't respond. I know Pandemonium never let guilds Loot and Scoot because they would just loot up and come back in and attack us during a Boss encounter.

I think overall a majority of Tallon honored the LnS rule. If you didn't want to get corpse camped you didn't stay in zones with people you knew didn't honor the system. If Linse was in the crypt you didn't go into the crypt unless you were ready to be camped for 40 hours during his farming binge.

A) People don't always keep their promise to loot and scoot. In fact from my experience about 30% of the people would come back and jump you anyways.


Off Topic
Btw Did anyone else feel like GM's vanished around Mid-Kunark on Tallon Zek? We started to see new GMs the kind that just cycled though 10 servers a day. So they had no idea how to deal with the PVPers. hehe

[Kope]

Off Topic
Btw Did anyone else feel like GM's vanished around Mid-Kunark on Tallon Zek? We started to see new GMs the kind that just cycled though 10 servers a day. So they had no idea how to deal with the PVPers. hehe

We always had a guide try to revitalize the server, they usually gave up after a month or two and had a breakdown lol :D

*edit* meant we had a "head guide" show up from time to time trying to fix the server.

[Macken]

Ask Sirken how much of his time was consumed with idiotic PnP shit. It burned out several GMs, and eventually the corrupt GM / favoritism / frivilious petitions got him too (if I am not mistaken, I seem to remember him quitting but was done with VZ/TZ at that time).

Sorry bro, but you are confused.

It's becoming more obvious with each thread and post that there is a strong-willed hard-deaded desire to ignore the experimentation that was live, and ignore the re-experiment that was vztz and launch a new re-re-experiment called red99, where we will rehash the exact same stuff that we did 10 years ago times 4, and 3 years ago, 2 years ago and last year. We don't learn, we just perpetually re-experiment because we are too dumb to remember what has already happened 7+ times.

We are so talented and we are beginning to believe all the wonderful things they say about us. We can do no wrong, and all of our ideas are the right ones even though they have already failed 7 times in a row.

The irony that we are bluebies who are considering bluebie ideas for a RED server is lost on us. If we aren't smart enough to look at history, then we surely aren't smart enough to discern between red and blue. You shouldn't expect so much from us.

I'm setting things up now and making plans now on how many different ways i can say "i told you so". Look for them in 6 months or so.

[Bardalicious]

Nobody cares about your opinion Macken. Perhaps if you didn't present yourself as such an ass-clown that may be different, but it is what it is.

You tote your opinions as fact, and it's outright laughable because everyone sees it for what it is. If you EQEmu PVP Rejects were so enlightened about the longevity of a PVP server, I guess they wouldn't historically fail within a MONTH every single time they open.

Someone like you is happy to spend his time PVPing only when an opportunity to gank another player presents itself, and the other 90% of the time you are talking about how ganking that player made you a boss. Some of us desire more than that. A PVP server needs a balance between PVP and PVE to have any chance of survival longer than a month. Playing VZTZ incarnations on EQEMU does not make you an expert on what is healthy for a PVP server by a long shot. Not to mention the fact that Rogean has outright stated that this is a PVP version of Project 1999, not just another VZTZ. Your egotistical tendencies merely led you to assume that they would cater to your childish needs.

Stop trying to shit up another PVP box. You've had plenty of them to enjoy yourself on already. Now it's time for the grown ups that desire more than epeen sword fighting to make a real PVP server that will last longer than a month.

[Macken]

You still aren't banned yet?

[Bardalicious]

You still aren't banned yet?

I rest my case. You don't do yourself any favors, you know. And yet you wonder why nobody will listen to you.

[Macken]

hax, post hax?

Whats a bardalicious got to do to get banned around here?

[Sniperfire]

with a pvp exp loss you dont need lns rules...its most comes into play with raids.people wont rush back to die for 7 hours

[Sniperfire]

SZ rules were the gms didnt wanna hear you whine about pvp anything went i only got banned once for racial slurs =)

[Muaar]

This is a huge one. PLEASE let the community decide this one. Allowing training will prevent a lot of corpse camping issues as it can really turn a one sided fight around in a hurry.

This is a pivotal rule that will determine the ambiance of the server overall and if people are being put in timeout by GMs for playing the game how we used to it won't feel like a pvp server. I say this having been corpse camped into rage a million times, and I don't cc myself unless theyre being a dick or did it to me.

Allowing this really adds a degree of consequence to peoples actions I think. If you fuck with someone, corpse camp them, etc you better be prepared for their entire guild/guild alliance to corpse camp you for eternity.

[Harrison]

No one but complete retards want training allowed.

[vinx]

Allowing this really adds a degree of consequence to peoples actions I think. If you fuck with someone, corpse camp them, etc

I say this having been corpse camped into rage a million times, and I don't cc myself unless theyre being a dick or did it to me.

quit going back and messin with the people once they kill you and tell you to leave

in doing so you are giving them the opportunity to keep at it as long as you dont give up.
log on an alt or take a break for a few hours.. then go back for corpse

ive seen this type of player many times, keeps getting his corpse and trying to pvp again
ofc we gonna CC you if you dont stop

[Muaar]

Thats the point - I like playing the game. I don't mind being cc'd as it's part of how I've always experienced the game. I don't feel like I need to have a constant upper hand so that my penis feels bigger, I guess. It's part of the fun to me.

Thread is for opinions, why don't your post your own instead of crying about mine? My opinion is the default one here. Training and cc was allowed on live pvp, so why should they change it and will that change become more of a problem than the original issue?

[vinx]

Ive posted alot of my opinions alrdy early in all these threads

dont feel like finding links or quoting when the boards are alive with hacking news!

[Muaar]

Not you, harrison. But hes just trolling anyways (and badly)

[Cfullard]

Loot and Scoot on a PvP server was kinda a simple concept. Most GM's defered to the idea that if it can be solved through PvP then solve it through PvP. If your guild can come help you stop being corpse camped then get your guild to come help you or log out for a little while. Don't keep coming back at your spawn and running back to your corpse to die again if you KNOW you're being spawn camped and have no support.

[mimixownzall]

SZ if you talked to ppl and asked there usually wasnt a problem. If they did CC you, you probably deserved it.

Why do ppl want LnS GM enforced? It's a huge headache and it isn't that hard to go do some laundry or something for an hour or so and come back....

CC'ing was mainly used to entice the cc-ee's guild/friends to come help for some larger scale raping.

[Scribbles]

muaar aka chairman magget

[Not_Kazowi]

i say SZ ruleset, if you die and dont scoot as asked then pay the price of being bind camped, deleveld, griefed and trained. pretty simple

[Ziggy]

if you die and dont scoot as asked then pay the price of being bind camped, deleveld, griefed and trained. pretty simple

Exactly.
There is no reason for GM enforcement on this issue. Players can and will police themselves.

[Titanuk]

agree

[Xareth]

That's an easy one, though.

Share your thoughts on training, if you would, Titanuk :D

[Vondra]

I like the standard LnS/1 hour thing fine.

[Kelsar]

LnS is a general code of conduct for mature people on PvP boxes.

The problem with having a server rule, like LnS, is at a GM/manpower level - someone has to be there to enforce it.

Many people (& guilds) won't honor LnS, regardless of its adoption rate throughout the server. By establishing a server LnS rule, you're asking for the losers still working at Pizza Hut or some crummy tech support job to cry in OOC, zone, forums, petition the hell out, and whisper GMs - many of those kind still feel like the world owes them something.

I would advocate you let the community manage the LnS. People will grow their own reputations and chose to return the pixel kindness or not. Players corpse camping will become corpse camped. Players boxing with honor will likely be returned the favor. Ultimately, I'm just sick of players bitching about the LnS rule when they violated it a week or so prior and magically forget why the favor was returned to them while they scream for a GM.

[gloinz]

Players corpse camping will become corpse camped.

implys a pvp champ ever dies (never been proven statistically impossible)

[Silikten]

What were the rules on each of the eqlive zek servers regarding this, and how did the community treat it.

Tallon Zek was mostly player enforced rules. GM's would step in and watch and if anything was suspicious they would step in. Training was not allowed, but GMs didn't police it so it was socially accepted as normal and players/guilds dealt with it. Unless it got too extreme...like taking shifts to CC someone :X.

That's pretty much it. GMs just dealt with game issues...lost items, quest items, etc.

[Silikten]

What were the rules on each of the eqlive zek servers regarding this, and how did the community treat it.

Loot and Scoot was a given for people who followed it. Everyone was allowed one strike when it came to it. If someone tried to attack after LnS, then they were pointed out by everyone and no longer allowed to LnS--at least for a while that is.

Sometimes in major raid zones the LnS rules were altered for training purposes. I think it was like 1 hour LnS for guild wars or something (might of just been on the nullbox). I think that is good though. Loss fair and square for a boss is legit imo and better luck next time.

[mitic]

What were the rules on each of the eqlive zek servers regarding this, and how did the community treat it.

there was no LnS rule written. i think the term LnS came after the zeks have been launched

[Silikten]

yeah, it was a player base rule ^_^

[Sniperfire]

in other words no gms on any pvp server dealt with one player "camping" another

[Chronoburn]

Corpse Camping created some of the best PvP battles ever on SZ. GM's regulating this would be a terrible idea.

[Xareth]

in other words no gms on any pvp server dealt with one player "camping" another

Only bind camping. Not like it was a serious infraction, but it was "dealt with" from time to time.

[ismaris]

Everyone hit the nail on the head so far..There was never any official LnS server rules back on live.
LnS was player created and maintained. Allowed/Denied between winner and loser.

examples:
* raid - worked itself out civilly between guilds unless one guild was "known" for having members that like to loot and continue interupting = denied/griefed/CC'd
*players - asked and either allowed/denied. again if looter wont stop until he wins = player gains a reputation and climbs high on the KOS/grief/CC ladder of others.

People still grief when they lose however, but LnS basically works itself

Aerist was the douche guild on VZ that never honored LnS. They were total griefers.

[greatdane]

There's always gonna be griefers. Better that they jizz their griefing pants by denying LnS than more annoying things like training raids and shit like that. Griefers are like goth emos, they just want to do something that doesn't conform with other people's expectations.

[Palemoon]

No to "official" Loot and Scoot. Let the players handle it.

[Bockscar]

No to "official" Loot and Scoot. Let the players handle it.

[Haul]

no gm enforced rules on lns, bind camping, or corpse camping.

most of the community will be reasonable and the staff should be spared whatever grief possible

This.

[jilena]

LnS should be player policed as with most things. People who have a reputation for being douches with regards to "understood rules" tend to be dealt with by the players. And encountering one of said douches and having to /q is all part of the experience.

[Haul]

LNS isn't classic, don't allow it

[Rust1d?]

Should be player policed. Players should let it happen, but you will have people who will just NK anyway.

[Clearrain]

I definitely got two warnings from GM's on VZ for CCing people that wouldn't LnS.

[Arillious]

I definitely got two warnings from GM's on VZ for CCing people that wouldn't LnS.

Really? What era? I don't remember when, but they made corpse camping legal at some point(During kunark or velious). On VZ, my guild(Torrent) corpse camped another guild(Aduentus) for over a week after one of thier officer's trained us. This was during early PoP, we never got any GM interference.

[Arillious]

To sum this thread up - Pretty much everyone is for allowing players to manage this.

[Dfn]

Lots of PKs were suspended on RZ for CC'ing. IIRC, wasn't Grayrage banned for CC'ing? It was a couple months before SZ released.

Play nice policies are dumb though. Let the player base sort it out, self-governance.

[Arillious]

Lots of PKs were suspended on RZ for CC'ing. IIRC, wasn't Grayrage banned for CC'ing? It was a couple months before SZ released.

Play nice policies are dumb though. Let the player base sort it out, self-governance.

Pretty sure early on GM's tended to get involved more often. After realizing that it was futile they laxxed a lot of the rules.

[Softcore PK]

Yes, classic - velious the GMs got involved in pvp a lot. I'd kinda like to see some of that arbitrarily decided anti-PK GMing to keep some of the griefers in check :P

[gloinz]

Yes, classic - velious the GMs got involved in pvp a lot. I'd kinda like to see some of that arbitrarily decided anti-PK GMing to keep some of the griefers in check :P

blue server is <- u seem to be lost

[Clearrain]

Really? What era? I don't remember when, but they made corpse camping legal at some point(During kunark or velious). On VZ, my guild(Torrent) corpse camped another guild(Aduentus) for over a week after one of thier officer's trained us. This was during early PoP, we never got any GM interference.

One was prior to Kunark when some gnome wouldn't leave me alone in the oot.

Another was when I was in Combine Resurrection. Which was Kunark/Velious.

I specifically remember people receiving the Iggles treatment and the GM's dolling out punishment on the Iggles for protecting themselves from retards.

[oldfish]

Rallos Zek originally adhered strictly to PNP-style rules. By which I mean any of the following would be considered against the rules:

Training
Intentional XP Loss
Corpse Camping
Zone Line Camping
General Griefing

At one point, killing players that were trying to hide under the protection of guards was considered against the PNP as well, though it was quickly forgotten as being impractical to expect players to not attack from range the people hiding at guards.

These were mostly player-enforced rules, but the constant threat of being banned was usually enough of an incentive to keep people mostly in line. Being that you seem to be leaning away from a RZ-style of PVP server, coupled with the type of player that comprise the EQEmu PVP community at large, I somewhat doubt it will work to expect players to govern themselves like they used to.

Are you serious? If these were actually the rules on Rallos, there was zero enforcement of them.

I played there 2 years, in 2000-2001.

Corpse camping and training was integral to the server. I have never heard once in 2 years on Rallos of someone talking about corpse camping, zone line camping or training being illegal. You would get spectres trains in Oasis each time you went there basically.

"General griefing" lol wtf is that, seriously that post is far removed from the experience you got playing on Rallos Zek. I got bind camped for half an hour and the thought of petitioning never entered my mind because thats how things were on Rallos.

After someone killed me for half an hour near Unrest, he msgs me and tells me "Ill stop killing you if you port me to Eastern Commons". Allrite i say. I port him in dreadlands at 2am in the morning in an empty zone.

THAT was Rallos Zek

[Softcore PK]

Those things were illegal on Vallon too.

[PlayervsDen]

Are you serious? If these were actually the rules on Rallos, there was zero enforcement of them.

I played there 2 years, in 2000-2001.

Corpse camping and training was integral to the server. I have never heard once in 2 years on Rallos of someone talking about corpse camping, zone line camping or training being illegal. You would get spectres trains in Oasis each time you went there basically.

"General griefing" lol wtf is that, seriously that post is far removed from the experience you got playing on Rallos Zek. I got bind camped for half an hour and the thought of petitioning never entered my mind because thats how things were on Rallos.

After someone killed me for half an hour near Unrest, he msgs me and tells me "Ill stop killing you if you port me to Eastern Commons". Allrite i say. I port him in dreadlands at 2am in the morning in an empty zone.

THAT was Rallos Zek

Hell ya. this guy knows his shit. The only affiliation Rallos Zek had with the word Rules is the fact that they start with the same letter.

[Clearrain]

Those things were illegal on Vallon too.

Bind Rushing was not illegal and even an abused game mechanic til they nerfed mana after death. CCed should have never been illegal.

[Valthar]

ZOMG Clearrain!

Anyway, as far as I remember, clear is right about bind rushing. It was frowned upon but not really illegal.

Honestly most of the stuff i remember being illegal on VZ was player enforced more than GM. Occasionally they may have done something about it but it was pretty rare.

[Clearrain]

Oh mah God. It's mother fuckin Drahzarius.

[Taluvill]

Enforce hacking/exploiting. Otherwise, leave it to the players.

[oldfish]

Enforce hacking/exploiting. Otherwise, leave it to the players.

Simple and effective. All the GM focus can be on doing stuff for players.

This should be the rules on Red99

[Muaar]

Enforce hacking/exploiting. Otherwise, leave it to the players.

[racist]

rape and let rape

[Kevris]

As a person who played low-level on Tallon Zek from 2000 to the day after Stormhammer launched, I will say Loot and Scoot was offerered and accepted at low levels. It wasn't until about level 40 or so that I noticed people stopped being cool, and started to be unreasonable.

It's bad form to bind-rush, whether versus NPC's or PC's.

Without GM enforcement, this will never work. The population of the internet in 2011 is not what it was in 2000.

[Lazortag]

As a person who played low-level on Tallon Zek from 2000 to the day after Stormhammer launched, I will say Loot and Scoot was offerered and accepted at low levels. It wasn't until about level 40 or so that I noticed people stopped being cool, and started to be unreasonable.

It's bad form to bind-rush, whether versus NPC's or PC's.

Without GM enforcement, this will never work. The population of the internet in 2011 is not what it was in 2000.

In my experience lots of people allow LNS if you just act sporting and be civil to them. If someone doesn't allow LNS, you can always try asking someone in one of the nicer guilds to drag the corpse for you or drive away the people camping your corpse.

[socialist]

In my experience lots of people allow LNS if you just act sporting and be civil to them.

That's the biggest one. A lot of people act like idiots after they die, and nobody wants to do you any favors if you talk shit or have a history of attacking again right after looting your corpse.

Also, a lot of players look naked at this stage in the game even when they aren't on a CR. If you're CRing and it takes you right past a guild group, you might wanna let them know or you'll just look like someone snooping around. We've had that happen a lot and plenty of morons try to snipe a kill so they can jerk off to screenshots of their killshot on someone in a known guild (who was tanking 3 mobs at the time), so we kill people who approach while we're PvEing if we don't know them or they haven't let us know what they're doing.

People think they can just do whatever the hell they want and then complain when they get shit on. Just play smart. Surprisingly few players will repeatedly kill a total stranger who hasn't invited it in any way.