The benefit of Warriors?

[Excellio]

Okay, so I have a friend who is playing a warrior, and he's kinda wishing he made a Paladin or SK instead now because it doesn't really seem like his warrior has any real advantages.

They can't DPS as well as other melee classes, they're supposed to tank and hold aggro, but it's tough to hold aggro when another player is doing wayyyy more damage than you are. They have more HP than other melees, I think, but that doesn't mean too much because it's tough to keep aggro. They don't have any spells like a pally, SK or ranger, and they don't DPS like a Rogue or Monk. So exactly what do warriors do better than any other class, and are they really practical for a player who can't afford to spend like 25K on gear?

[Iwar]

They can't DPS as well as other melee classes

Check DPS tables. Warriors do very well behind monks and rogues.

[Stinkum]

are they really practical for a player who can't afford to spend like 25K on gear?

good question, the answer is no

[Excellio]

Check DPS tables. Warriors do very well behind monks and rogues.

What is it that determines how frequently you miss when meleeing?

[Nedala]

Warriors are just the best maintanks for raids mainly. Id say paladins and Sks are better for groups, cause they can hold aggro, pull and some other useful things (Lay hands/ harm touch). Keep in mind Paladins and SKs also have a 40% exp penalty, while warrior has a 5% exp bonus. To hold aggro as a warrior you need to rely on proc weapons. I think obsidian shard is a good choice at the lower levels, later maybe the short sword of ykesha, im not really sure what new warrior weapons are out there since kunark. This is mainly second hand info as i never played a warrior. Paladin and SKs are probably more noob-friendly, they can also solo better than warriors (but still not very good). But the exp penalty hurts.

[Nepenthe]

DPS also shouldn't be spamming abilities to get aggro. That's part of their class; you do great dmg but unless you watch what you're doing you're going to get hit and maybe die or at least waste a bunch of healer mana.

If warriors could hold it and lock it the entire time with 1 or 2 taunts there's no risk and little reward for being smart or careful.

[Lazortag]

Okay, so I have a friend who is playing a warrior, and he's kinda wishing he made a Paladin or SK instead now because it doesn't really seem like his warrior has any real advantages.

They can't DPS as well as other melee classes, they're supposed to tank and hold aggro, but it's tough to hold aggro when another player is doing wayyyy more damage than you are. They have more HP than other melees, I think, but that doesn't mean too much because it's tough to keep aggro. They don't have any spells like a pally, SK or ranger, and they don't DPS like a Rogue or Monk. So exactly what do warriors do better than any other class, and are they really practical for a player who can't afford to spend like 25K on gear?

Warriors are basically the best tanks on raids because of their disciplines and because of their high HP. For raid mobs they can get quick aggro using clicky items like midnight mallets (obviously this isn't really practical in an exp group). If you want to have more fun with a warrior I would suggest farming rechargeable clickies like crystalline orb, root nets, and other good utility items, that way you can feel like your class does more than just turn auto attack on in groups.

[Arrisard]

Okay, so I have a friend who is playing a warrior, and he's kinda wishing he made a Paladin or SK instead now because it doesn't really seem like his warrior has any real advantages.

They can't DPS as well as other melee classes, they're supposed to tank and hold aggro, but it's tough to hold aggro when another player is doing wayyyy more damage than you are. They have more HP than other melees, I think, but that doesn't mean too much because it's tough to keep aggro. They don't have any spells like a pally, SK or ranger, and they don't DPS like a Rogue or Monk. So exactly what do warriors do better than any other class, and are they really practical for a player who can't afford to spend like 25K on gear?

Better skillcaps in just about any relevant skill (defense, offense, weapons, etc)
Better AC tables
Better HP tables
Better DMG tables
The hybrid discs are pretty much a joke in comparison to the warrior ones and this is a key aspect in tanking raid bosses. A hybrid would have to be ridiculously well geared beyond whatever expansion was current to compete.

I honestly don't see that much of a difference from Live concerning warrior aggro. What I do see is the recklessness of people still in the mindset that they shouldn't have to adjust their aggro generation in the least bit. Waiting to slow at like 80% or nuke at 50% was standard fare on Live during this time period (even with hybrids, since mana wasn't really endless like it was when KEI came around). Here, I see that shit hitting before the mobs are even in camp and then they run around screaming to taunt it off them on a consistent basis.

[Vermicelli]

Your friend's effectiveness really depends on his level and gear. Obviously, max the AC. Warrior aggro is mostly built thru weapon procs. Obsidian shards start proc'ing at level 16. Polished Granite Tomahawk is a good cheap alternative. At Level 37, Ykesha weapons (Short sword of, Ykeshan war club are cheapest for WARs). The Kunzar Ku'juch procs at level 40 with a snare effect and is super cheap, if necessary. After he gets to raiding level, he will find a new better weapon. It really sounds like your friend could benefit from researching the class a little bit before he thinks Warriors are worthless =)

[Iwar]

Better skillcaps in just about any relevant skill (defense, offense, weapons, etc)
Better AC tables
Better HP tables
Better DMG tables
The hybrid discs are pretty much a joke in comparison to the warrior ones and this is a key aspect in tanking raid bosses. A hybrid would have to be ridiculously well geared beyond whatever expansion was current to compete.

I honestly don't see that much of a difference from Live concerning warrior aggro. What I do see is the recklessness of people still in the mindset that they shouldn't have to adjust their aggro generation in the least bit. Waiting to slow at like 80% or nuke at 50% was standard fare on Live during this time period (even with hybrids, since mana wasn't really endless like it was when KEI came around). Here, I see that shit hitting before the mobs are even in camp and then they run around screaming to taunt it off them on a consistent basis.

You got it all down 100% - I too sense a "WOW-sickness" meaning people just firing their shit off not being aware of aggro or the general game mechanics.

All the people claiming warriors aren't good in groups, what level of groups are you refering to?

There is nothing like an attentive and experienced warrior in a group acting like a daddy, grabbing aggro and watching over everyone. :-)

[Snaggles]

The warrior path is one that pays off later on, especially with good gear. The SK/Pally path is one that pays off once you master all the tricks.

Warriors have higher offense caps than knight classes, higher defense caps than the ranger. Furthermore they do better per level, per ac, per stam (etc) than other classes.

They do a ton of damage and have access to some awesome weapons (not just 1handers). Tell your friend to think long and hard while shopping for gear. Buck for buck a warrior is pretty impressive unless you dream of soloing w/o downtime.

Even then, bind wound works great for someone soloing with a TON of hps and ac. Get a Truncheon of Doom and you're set. :D

[greatdane]

Defensive/evasive disciplines. That's really all there is to it. It's extremely bad game design, but that's how it is. The tank discs are the only thing that sets warriors apart in any meaningful way, and since that's the case, content was developed so as to require disc-tanking rather than giving the warrior class more depth (until much, much later). If not for defensive disc, knights could tank anything a warrior can and probably do it better. Some people like the "raw simplicity" of the class, but there can be no arguing that it's really not very good outside of maintanking raids for which it is pretty much required. The difference in base tanking stats is negligible.

[Atmas]

Better skillcaps in just about any relevant skill (defense, offense, weapons, etc)
Better AC tables
Better HP tables
Better DMG tables
The hybrid discs are pretty much a joke in comparison to the warrior ones and this is a key aspect in tanking raid bosses. A hybrid would have to be ridiculously well geared beyond whatever expansion was current to compete.

I honestly don't see that much of a difference from Live concerning warrior aggro. What I do see is the recklessness of people still in the mindset that they shouldn't have to adjust their aggro generation in the least bit. Waiting to slow at like 80% or nuke at 50% was standard fare on Live during this time period (even with hybrids, since mana wasn't really endless like it was when KEI came around). Here, I see that shit hitting before the mobs are even in camp and then they run around screaming to taunt it off them on a consistent basis.

This sums it up. Warriors take less damage and do more damage. Their downside is they can't generate the agro like SK/Paly.

[Dantes]

Better DPS. No exp penalty.

What level is your friend? Being a warrior pretty much sucks until 40. You'll be fighting in groups where mobs are yellow/red and you can't taunt them, before 37 most great aggro weapons don't actually proc (yaks). It's a pain in the ass, but it'll get better.

[Nytewind TP]

I too sense a "WOW-sickness"

LOL first time I've seen/read that. I totally get it!

[superapan]

Is this something related to P99 mechanics? Cause I had zero problems with aggro back on live, across all levels. Back then most warriors mid-Kunark had lammys - no procs there. For a while for raid tanking, I used journeymans taunting sticks, but in regular groups - never.

[greatdane]

You're either remembering things wrong or you played with people who knew how to help a warrior hold aggro. After years of WoW conditioning, most people can't do that today. They could back then, but warrior aggro was always pitiful and required good proccing weapons to do it with any real consistency.

[Ruenaros]

I'm not convinced the hate mechanics are 100% accurate here either. I used a jade mace and jarsath trident all through my 50s back then and rarely had a problem... good luck trying that here!

Need to give the DPS'ers here some more credit, they're still EQ veterans for the most part despite whatever WoW has undone.

[Ruenaros]

ya that would help, the questions are: Was that what was happening in Kunark era live?
and if so, is that happening here?

[azeth]

Need to add extra hate to warriors hits.

more so - swings (connecting or not) in general.

[Phallax]

On live i remember Taunt actually generating threat instead of how it works here, putting you to the top of the list(exactly like WoW's taunt). So thats where a lot of warrior agro came from w/o proc weapons

The only time taunt would put you on the top of the list on Live was with AE taunt when AAs were released.

[Arrisard]

On live i remember Taunt actually generating threat instead of how it works here, putting you to the top of the list(exactly like WoW's taunt). So thats where a lot of warrior agro came from w/o proc weapons

The only time taunt would put you on the top of the list on Live was with AE taunt when AAs were released.

Pretty sure Taunt and AE taunt is top of hate list +1

[Collum]

thats the way I remember it.

I started playing a warrior as my first toon during the velious xpac. I played it through OOW. I dont recall ever having agro problems. Then again, as earlier posted, people were a lot more careful not to blast away before an engage was called.

[azeth]

im ashamed to have posted in every troll "new warrior" thread to date. :(

[Phallax]

Pretty sure Taunt and AE taunt is top of hate list +1

I remember warriors having to save their AE taunt for "oh shit" situations or tank rotation. If AE taunt was that important to save during a single target tank and spank fight why would you even need it if taunt acted the same way?

P99 yes its top +1 but it should only generate threat

[Pescador]

Low delay weapons aren't generating aggro like they did on live, so you need to rely on proccing weapons for aggro in group situations. In raid situations, disciplines and higher hp/ac/defensive skillcaps makes warriors totally dominant over knights. As mentioned before, midnight mallets can be used on bosses to instantly grab aggro.

[Arrisard]

I remember warriors having to save their AE taunt for "oh shit" situations or tank rotation. If AE taunt was that important to save during a single target tank and spank fight why would you even need it if taunt acted the same way?

P99 yes its top +1 but it should only generate threat

AE taunt was a 100% success rate. Regular taunt wasn't. That's what made it so valuable in the situation you described.

[Phallax]

AE taunt was a 100% success rate. Regular taunt wasn't.

OMG IT WAS AE?!?!

Yes but taunt still generated agro and not top +1, cant find any patch notes or anything to help my arguement but thats how it worked on live.

[Arrisard]

Um, ok. Anyways, a brief look on Google with some even basic terms like Everquest, warrior, and taunt all seem to read as top of hate list +1 and that's certainly how I remember it behaving.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16505

Some of the Dev's posting about the timing of Taunt and why Taunt mashers are stupid seem to strongly imply there isn't a static +hate attribute.

[Kevlar]

AE taunt was a 100% success rate. Regular taunt wasn't. That's what made it so valuable in the situation you described.


Plus regular taunt doesn't (or didn't) work on higher level mobs, which all raid bosses are.

[Arrisard]

Plus regular taunt doesn't (or didn't) work on higher level mobs, which all raid bosses are.

Interestingly enough, I did find something about that dated all the way into 2006:

http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=21450&TabID=194664&ForumID=98602&TopicID=2449874&Page=1

I've mentioned this in the past, but have now made the taunt changes in code. They'll be going to test soon and I wanted to let everyone know what changes are being made. The changes are mostly relevant at high levels, where taunt was really a problem, and consist of the following:


Above level 60, taunt will use your taunt skill now instead of being a hard coded success rate. Before these changes, your taunt skill was irrelevant if you were above level 60 and taunting something that was also above level 60. The chance to taunt is roughly the same if you are max skill as it was before the change.

To go along with this, Paladin and Shadowknight now have the same taunt caps as Warriors. Previously, since the taunt chance was hard coded, they were taunting the same anyway so this ensures that the 3 tank classes keep that equality.

The chance to taunt an NPC higher level than yourself dropped off at double the rate if you
were above level 60 than if you were below level 60 making it very hard to taunt creature higher level than yourself if you were above level 60. I've removed this check so the drop off happens at the same rate at all levels now instead. This will improve taunt success rates against yellow and some red con NPCs at high levels.

The mininimum chance to successfully taunt an NPC has been increased.

You now gain a bonus to your chance to taunt an NPC that is lower level than yourself with that bonus growing as the level difference increases.

Rashere