Ranger Kael vs. Skyshrine Armor

[MossyG]

Usually there is a decent trade off between the two armour sets. However, I was looking at the ranger Kael armour because I like the green look and it seems worse in every way except a small boost to AC. I've heard a lot about ranger AC having a much lower soft cap.

Does this mean the Ranger Kael armour is strictly worse or am I missing something?

[Wayward]

Yes, AC doesn't do jack for a Ranger past 200 or so, I think their Softcap is 200. So the extra AC is a waste, and you trade off for less HP with Kael armor than SS

[MossyG]

Yes, AC doesn't do jack for a Ranger past 200 or so, I think their Softcap is 200. So the extra AC is a waste, and you trade off for less HP with Kael armor than SS

That's a shame, the SS armour looks pretty bad a human imo.

[kjs86z2]

all that matters is fashion - vulak was killed in kunark gear

if you like the kael armor, go for it

may as well look good when your corpse is under a dragon after a speedbump

[Goregasmic]

IIRC rangers have the same AC softcaps as everyone else, the biggest difference is their lower defense skill puts their overall avoidance lower even if they have higher dodge/parry.

So they don't get hit harder, they get hit more often. With that being said, I'd argue your biggest mitigation for this is... more mitigation (AC).

Only difference between classes as far as AC is concerned is the return over softcap, which is much lower for mail than plate.

[Cecily]

There's not enough AC in the game to make that shitty class a tank. HP is a different story and if you just invest a year or three into getting all 100 hp slot pieces from ToV, you're like a low HP warrior.

[BradZax]

yeah but a guild of like 40 of them can weaponshield all all of ToV!

When are we gonna do it, its been like 16 years, im leveling mine now!

[Cecily]

I've leveled 3 to 60 and I have access to a 59 one. I think I'm done.

[Kirdan]

Wear what looks good to you, nothing else matters.

[Goregasmic]

There's not enough AC in the game to make that shitty class a tank. HP is a different story and if you just invest a year or three into getting all 100 hp slot pieces from ToV, you're like a low HP warrior.

They never were meant to be tanks, no mail class was due to itemization and their lower defense doesn't help.

In good tunnel gear you can still softcap mobs in the low 50s, good enough to pull and park shit in camp. With chloro and fungi you can regen on the move and with earthcaller you can significantly cut incoming damage.

But yeah if you catch rampage strays you're gonna have a bad time.

[Cecily]

They never were meant to be tanks, no mail class was due to itemization and their lower defense doesn't help.

In good tunnel gear you can still softcap mobs in the low 50s, good enough to pull and park shit in camp. With chloro and fungi you can regen on the move and with earthcaller you can significantly cut incoming damage.

But yeah if you catch rampage strays you're gonna have a bad time.
We're not playing the same game.

[Crede]

Usually there is a decent trade off between the two armour sets. However, I was looking at the ranger Kael armour because I like the green look and it seems worse in every way except a small boost to AC. I've heard a lot about ranger AC having a much lower soft cap.

Does this mean the Ranger Kael armour is strictly worse or am I missing something?

2 real options for ranger fq on a human. Full kael or vp robe. The latter will let you swap in best pieces without affecting fashion. Can’t go wrong either way.

[Goregasmic]

We're not playing the same game.

We are, I just accepted cutting the xmas turkey with a swiss knife isn't optimal but that doesn't make swiss knives useless.

P.S. do you even still play?

[Ripqozko]

Ranger ac is broke. Gearing for ac on ranger is dumb, those suggesting to are also dumb. Hope that helps.

[Snaggles]

IMHO go with SV’s and hps. Try to look good in the process.

There is nothing wrong with a full Kael ranger, they look great. You don’t need much to be a good bump though. I don’t even get Aego most the time and never when fighting non-ae stuff like AoW.

[Goregasmic]

Ranger ac is broke. Gearing for ac on ranger is dumb, those suggesting to are also dumb. Hope that helps.

Latest parses show that's not accurate, where are yours?

IMHO go with SV’s and hps. Try to look good in the process.


If all you care about is raiding I guess that works, you're not supposed to get hit much as a ranger.

[Snaggles]

If all you care about is raiding I guess that works, you're not supposed to get hit much as a ranger.

I focused on MR and STR for most my P99 time on this class. It’s shifted to adding quality gear that also has hps and other SVS. If I did it again on any budget I’d do the same thing. The most annoying spell effects in the game are MR based, especially outside raids.

Really though, go with whatever armor you prefer. If people want MR you can get a metric ton with jacinth rings, tranix crown, tribal war boots, and two BoB’s or BD bracers.

[Naethyn]

I agree with the MR strategy.

[feniin]

Latest parses show that's not accurate, where are yours?


Are you talking group content or raid content? Raid mobs chunk rangers in a way that they're nearly always getting hit for 90-100% of a mob's max damage, more than a druid or shaman would take. Rangers should be able to take damage as effectively as a bard or rogue but the armor class calculation does not seem to function in the slightest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you talking group content or raid content? Raid mobs chunk rangers in a way that they're nearly always getting hit for 90-100% of a mob's max damage, more than a druid or shaman would take. Rangers should be able to take damage as effectively as a bard or rogue but the armor class calculation does not seem to function in the slightest.

All classes use the same mitigation calculations. They aren't broken.

The issue with Rangers is they have 32 less Defense Skill than Warriors/Paladins/Shadowknights, they have a lower AC softcap return percentage, and they typically don't use shields.

Shields raise your softcap. So a Shadowknight with 200 AC from armor and a Sarnak Battle Shield would have 225 AC. A Ranger with 25 non-shield AC above their 200 AC softcap would have something like 204 AC after softcap reduction.

As a quick test in my DPS calculator, I have a level 60 Warrior with 200 STR, 100% Haste, and a Tuna Sword (50/39) fighting a level 60 mob. I disabled Parry/Riposte/Dodge so we can just see the mitigation difference.

When the mob has 252 Defense Skill and 225 AC, the Warrior is doing ~70 DPS to it. The number of max hit rolls was ~220.

When the mob has 220 Defense Skill and 204 AC, the Warrior is doing ~78 DPS to it. The number of max hit rolls was ~280.

As you can see, a Ranger is taking like 10% more DPS and ~20% more max hits just from these two factors. That is why they are squishier than Paladins/Warriors/Shadowknights.

Rogues and Bards also have 252 Defense Skill.

[Jimjam]

Are you talking group content or raid content? Raid mobs chunk rangers in a way that they're nearly always getting hit for 90-100% of a mob's max damage, more than a druid or shaman would take. Rangers should be able to take damage as effectively as a bard or rogue but the armor class calculation does not seem to function in the slightest.

Its a design choice from kunark. In classic, classes maxed out their defence at 200 around level 39.

In Kunark all the melees got a boost to defence as they level up to 60, capping around 250. Except rangers who get to keep tanking like they are in their 30s 20+ levels later.

This was eventually addressed in late velious where the 60 ranger defence cap got raised to around 220, but this is still miles behind other classes.

It is said in trilogy era, dodge/parry/etc were calculated quite differently and worked more effectively at those skill levels than they do on p99 which uses a system from much later where skill caps (at higher level) were higher (yet onviously don’t result in most attacks getting stopped).

I’m not sure how true the above para is, but rangers have very generous dodge and parry caps in kunark - it seems the lack of evasion they get due to their mediocre defence skill should be offset by their superior dodge/parry skills … however, as mentioned previously, on p99 such skills are not hugely effective and don’t substantially improve ranger avoidance (certainly not as much as another 20-50 defence skill would).

Anyways, short story long, rogues have much better defence skill than rangers and should be expected to avoid/absorb hits better than rangers on account of that.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah from everything I've seen they're working as expected.

I have about 220ac worn and I did notice in the mid 50s fighting low blues I wasn't getting max hit much. It still looks worse than knights because it is easier to stack AC with plate and you get more gear with sta/hp while also getting more mileage from sta. Lower starting sta too.

It is no surprise that at 57 with 220ac worn I'll get max hit all the time by a raid targets but it isn't because rangers are broken, it is because 230worn is about where you'll max out with tunnel/SS gear while keeping an eye on str/dex/sta/hp/sv. That's the softcap for a level 50 mob or so. If you're facing a 65 you're nowhere near where you'd need to be to mitigate max hits. Unless you have access and the dkp to get the all/all BIS tov gear that's basically where all rangers will end up.

"Yeah but I parsed 1000ac and 1200ac and it did nothing". Yeah you parsed a mob you were softcapped on at 1000ac because parsing against a 55-60 is tedious. A warrior/knight would get the same mitigation.

I mean, I'm open to being proven wrong and if there's indeed something broken I'll be the first to be happy to see a fix getting implemented but so far everything we're seeing from parses line up with the mechanics we know. No one claiming rangers are broken ever provided parses to back their claim so right now it seems like they're working as intended.

[Snaggles]

Regardless of bugged or not, rangers don’t take hits well. They don’t tend to optimize gear for AC and even if going for hps they are at a natural disadvantage. My pally is marginally geared at just over 5.7k raid buffed and the difference on blues or raid trash is a night and day difference. With the ranger I rarely get Aego or even a symbol, I’ve only had CH’s as the main assist during some odd Fear and Hate raids.

SS vs Kael is a non-starter discussion unless you prefer green over brown/gold. One has a ton of hps and svs, the other has AC and mana. Bugged AC or not, the green stuff isn’t quite as good. Glad it looks so damn cool.

[Cecily]

It is no surprise that at 57
I say again, with considerably more derision this time, we're not playing the same game. Lol.

[bcbrown]

I say again, with considerably more derision this time, we're not playing the same game. Lol.

Ooooh, look at you gatekeeping a video game.

[deezy]

Usually there is a decent trade off between the two armour sets. However, I was looking at the ranger Kael armour because I like the green look and it seems worse in every way except a small boost to AC. I've heard a lot about ranger AC having a much lower soft cap.

Does this mean the Ranger Kael armour is strictly worse or am I missing something?

SS armor has better stats sans AC, which is fairly negligible in terms of mitigation. However, Kael armor has big style points.

With regard to tanking, in my experience, ranger sits somewhere between bard and monk. Better than a bard, but not as good as a monk.

[Wayward]

SS armor has better stats sans AC, which is fairly negligible in terms of mitigation. However, Kael armor has big style points.

With regard to tanking, in my experience, ranger sits somewhere between bard and monk. Better than a bard, but not as good as a monk.

Well nobody tanks as good as a monk. Not even a warrior (sans Defensive disc)

[Crede]

Well nobody tanks as good as a monk. Not even a warrior (sans Defensive disc)

Depends on how you define “good”. I’ve seen more wipes because the monk couldn’t hold aggro than a lesser tank where the healer couldn’t keep up.

[Wayward]

Depends on how you define “good”. I’ve seen more wipes because the monk couldn’t hold aggro than a lesser tank where the healer couldn’t keep up.

Monks take the least damage.

There. Made it clear.

[Jimjam]

Vanilla monk design: rejects worldy belongings, has bad gear options, innate bonuses makes up for this

Velious monk design: embraces raid loot, has best gear options, innate bonuses multiply this.

Insane design shift to give monks what is essentially weightless plate without considering how their innate bonuses raise their baseline and multiply their effectiveness. Just imo. I guess they didn’t design for 15 years of gearing.

[Jimjam]

Vanilla monk design: rejects worldy belongings, has bad gear options, innate bonuses makes up for this

Velious monk design: embraces raid loot, has best gear options, innate bonuses multiply this.

Insane design shift to give monks what is essentially weightless plate without considering how their innate bonuses raise their baseline and multiply their effectiveness. Just imo. I guess they didn’t design for 15 years of gearing.

[Ennewi]

Not to derail further, but I always thought it odd that monks didn't get meditate. Understandable given no mana, but still, it's synonymous with monks IRL.

[Crede]

Vanilla monk design: rejects worldy belongings, has bad gear options, innate bonuses makes up for this

Velious monk design: embraces raid loot, has best gear options, innate bonuses multiply this.

Insane design shift to give monks what is essentially weightless plate without considering how their innate bonuses raise their baseline and multiply their effectiveness. Just imo. I guess they didn’t design for 15 years of gearing.

Giving monks good dps is where they got it wrong. Then deciding to put t staff as a kc trash drop lol. Even well into live my monk was still top 5 raid dps and could tank anything. Just a fundamentally broken class.

[Jimjam]

Not to derail further, but I always thought it odd that monks didn't get meditate. Understandable given no mana, but still, it's synonymous with monks IRL.

I found it odd they could only mend themselves. I thought they were going to be like a paladin - a melee cleric but with different focus (offensive melee and healing spells, vs the paladin’s tanky melee and fight orientated spells like stun / flash of light / root / buffs etc).

For a class focused on self sacrifice/denial they seem really selfish.


My ranger wears gold to hide his double scout bracers.

[Goregasmic]

Insane design shift to give monks what is essentially weightless plate without considering how their innate bonuses raise their baseline and multiply their effectiveness. Just imo. I guess they didn’t design for 15 years of gearing.

Making half the loot all/all is where they went wrong imo, feels like botched itemization but then it isn't just TOV because barb leggings lolz.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Making half the loot all/all is where they wen't wrong imo, feels like botched itemization but then it isn't just TOV because barb leggings lolz.

In fairness, expansion packs were being released quickly during that time. Realistically speaking most players did not have tons of Kael/ToV loot by the time the next expansion dropped. You were just excited to get raid loot, even if it's objectively not great compared to other Velious raid loot. Balancing loot most players won't get was probably low priority.

The loot wasn't designed around the concept of being in Velious for 10+ years.

[Ennewi]

I found it odd they could only mend themselves. I thought they were going to be like a paladin - a melee cleric but with different focus

Makes sense. Norrath's version of force healing. Maybe more akin to DAoC's friar.

For a class focused on self sacrifice/denial they seem really selfish.

There is bind wound of course, but that's the one exception that comes to mind. With gozz shovel, they can give out bread. Who doesn't like bread?

Ranger fashion is hard. At least fungi is greenish on human male, so it matches decently with most armor sets. OG devs should have included hooded cloaks, but hard ask when there weren't even capes.

[Snaggles]

Like all threads, this one veering a bit left, lol.

It’s not all hit efficiency but how how they can take an unlucky streak. In that regard a BiS monk will still be about 1k hps behind a BiS warrior. Casually geared it’s likely closer to 1.5k hps since a warrior goes 100% hps and monks might be mixing in other goals like SVs. Also the fact that monks will be pulling or dps’ing and tanking will be exclusively a knight and warrior role (and more knights if you can pull it off with the CH chain and gear). Also the “off disc” talk is silly…at 60 you have a disc up 3 out of every 7 mins. It’s EQ, not Fortnite, just wait a few minutes.

It’s a progression locked server. Make more alts (I’m leveling a rogue finally). Don’t force people to roll a CH chain on a monk or ranger, please. Some warriors already make our lives difficult.