Pet weapon questions

[bcbrown]

Since starting a necro I've become curious about the details and nuances of giving a pet a weapon.

Delay isn't affected at all, right? Whether I give a rusty dagger or a weighted axe, it won't change the pet's delay. Is that correct?

If a weapon doesn't do as much damage as a pet is already doing, it won't reduce the damage, right? Giving the pet a Gnoll Hide Lariat won't lower the max hit? And I think max damage is 2 times weapon damage plus 1, so if the pet is already doing 31 damage, you'd need to give it at least a 16 damage weapon to make it hit for additional damage? Does giving a pet a strength buff have any effect on damage?

How does dual wield work? If a pet is high enough level to dual wield, you can simply give it a torch and it will begin dual wielding? Can you give a pet a 2-hander and a torch and still get it to dual wield? If so, does the order matter?

If you give the pet two 1-handers, will the offhand weapon proc? I'm assuming the first weapon given will go in primary, and the second weapon goes in secondary?

Pets ignore class restrictions on weapons, right? You can give a warrior pet a ranger-only weapon and it'll use it? Do they follow level restrictions on procs or can a low-level pet get procs on a weapon that only procs 50+?

What are some good pet weapons? Gnoll hide lariats, deadwood staves, tash sticks, swarmcallers, what else is worth knowing about?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Since starting a necro I've become curious about the details and nuances of giving a pet a weapon.

Delay isn't affected at all, right? Whether I give a rusty dagger or a weighted axe, it won't change the pet's delay. Is that correct?

If a weapon doesn't do as much damage as a pet is already doing, it won't reduce the damage, right? Giving the pet a Gnoll Hide Lariat won't lower the max hit? And I think max damage is 2 times weapon damage plus 1, so if the pet is already doing 31 damage, you'd need to give it at least a 16 damage weapon to make it hit for additional damage? Does giving a pet a strength buff have any effect on damage?

How does dual wield work? If a pet is high enough level to dual wield, you can simply give it a torch and it will begin dual wielding? Can you give a pet a 2-hander and a torch and still get it to dual wield? If so, does the order matter?

If you give the pet two 1-handers, will the offhand weapon proc? I'm assuming the first weapon given will go in primary, and the second weapon goes in secondary?

Pets ignore class restrictions on weapons, right? You can give a warrior pet a ranger-only weapon and it'll use it? Do they follow level restrictions on procs or can a low-level pet get procs on a weapon that only procs 50+?

What are some good pet weapons? Gnoll hide lariats, deadwood staves, tash sticks, swarmcallers, what else is worth knowing about?

It's been a little while since I've thought about pets, but this is what I remember:

1. Delay does not affect the pet.

2. Weighted Axe specifically doesn't work when given to a pet. There are a few items flagged like this, since it would be overpowered.

3. Max damage can only increase based on weapon damage. It won't decrease. If I remember right the rule is "If Weapon Damage * 2 is greater than the pet's max damage, Weapon Damage * 2 becomes their new max damage". So if your pet's max damage was 40, and you gave it a 25 damage weapon, it's max damage becomes 50. Note that this only works for pets that can wield weapons. Shaman Doggo cannot wield a weapon, for example.

4. STR/ATK buffs improve pet DPS as far as I am aware. Your pet should get more max hits, but the max hit itself will not increase. So a pet with Avatar and 40 max damage will still do a max damage of 40, but you should see more 40s.

5. Pet needs to be able to Dual Wield. For Necros/SK's at least, this is based on pet level. They also get innate dual wield at a higher level. For Necro/SK's level 19+ pets can dual wield with a torch, and pets level 33+ get innate dual wield (they will do so without needing a weapon).

6. It's been a while since I've tried this on my SK, but I think you can get a pet to dual wield with a 2h weapon, and order does matter. This is easy enough to test with torches and rusty weapons.

7. Both weapons should proc if the pet has two proc weapons and can dual wield.

8. Pets ignore class and race restrictions. This is why pets can use Swarmcaller, which is Ranger only.

9. Pet weapon procs are restricted by level I believe. I don't remember ever seeing a low level using a nice 50+ proc weapon on their pets to power level.

10. Cheap pet weapons get harder to find as their max damage increases. I think the best Necro pets hit for ~60 damage max, so you would need a weapon with over 30 damage to increase it's max damage. The weapon list you provided is already a great start, although Swarmcaller would be a weapon less commonly used due to it being harder to come by. You'd ideally want to be raiding or camping something nice for a long session to give a swarmcaller to a summoned pet.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Coldain_Crossbow - 30 damage weapon, but temporary. So you can't keep them stored in your bank/bags after you camp. You can corpse them. I can't remember if these drop from dwarfs that are not a part of Ring War.

[Jimjam]

I’m sure on live NPCs including pets ignored level requirements (which later got changed to being checked vs the pet owner’s level, not the pet) but I can never find anything that backs up or falsifies this convincingly in era.

[Wayward]

How does dual wield work? If a pet is high enough level to dual wield, you can simply give it a torch and it will begin dual wielding? Can you give a pet a 2-hander and a torch and still get it to dual wield? If so, does the order matter?

[...]

What are some good pet weapons? Gnoll hide lariats, deadwood staves, tash sticks, swarmcallers, what else is worth knowing about?

Yes, you can dual wield a pet with a 2 hander, the order does matter(i believe, but tbh am not 100% certain). First give it a torch, or something offhand only. (works with shields, too)

Then give it the Swarmcaller.


IMO, swarmcaller is the only pet wep I use in most situations. I don't like the deadwood staves as much as a Necro, because they break root. On an enchanter its much better with 2 Staves + Boon + VoG --- but with a Necro, i use swarmcaller and just reset the pet.

Necros have the easiest time resetting their pets, even easier than Enchanter. On my enchanter I typically cheese it.. Pacify the pet while it's still charmed and /camp.

Necro, however, can use Rest the Dead on pet while its charmed and then FD to break charm / mem blur all in one. For this reason, I don't bother giving the pet the staves, or anything but a Swarmcaller to lengthen the time between needing to reset.

This also works wonders for getting the solo exp. Before pet is about to kill the mob, back it off, Rest the Dead, and then FD. Stand up, finish mob with a Deflux or let Splurt / Epic Click finish the mob for full exp. Pet will reset and start regenning 5% a tick, recharm and get going again.

[kjs86z2]

Yes, you can dual wield a pet with a 2 hander, the order does matter(i believe, but tbh am not 100% certain). First give it a torch, or something offhand only. (works with shields, too)

Then give it the Swarmcaller.


IMO, swarmcaller is the only pet wep I use in most situations. I don't like the deadwood staves as much as a Necro, because they break root. On an enchanter its much better with 2 Staves + Boon + VoG --- but with a Necro, i use swarmcaller and just reset the pet.

Necros have the easiest time resetting their pets, even easier than Enchanter. On my enchanter I typically cheese it.. Pacify the pet while it's still charmed and /camp.

Necro, however, can use Rest the Dead on pet while its charmed and then FD to break charm / mem blur all in one. For this reason, I don't bother giving the pet the staves, or anything but a Swarmcaller to lengthen the time between needing to reset.

This also works wonders for getting the solo exp. Before pet is about to kill the mob, back it off, Rest the Dead, and then FD. Stand up, finish mob with a Deflux or let Splurt / Epic Click finish the mob for full exp. Pet will reset and start regenning 5% a tick, recharm and get going again.

mob has to be 46 to proc swarmcaller

order doesnt matter IIRC - but i always tossed it swarmcaller first then a torch (tome of the eternal works as well if you're going -MR kit)

for normal XP solo you would never do this - far more efficient to just charm and cycle pets unless you're in a spot where there aren't a ton of undead to choose from

if you're in HS you just use the HTs to do the dmg, not keeping 1 pet with a swarmcaller that would be big dumb

[Wayward]

for normal XP solo you would never do this - far more efficient to just charm and cycle pets unless you're in a spot where there aren't a ton of undead to choose from


"You would never do this." That's quite the phrase. I believe what you're looking for is, "I prefer not to play like this." Because many necros do it... it's quite efficient.

Beguile Undead is 170 mana. That's only 9 standing ticks with Lich. By the time the mob is dead, you've regained all of the mana from Charm.

Granted, I had epic, the soul well staff and the SS pants by 55, so I didn't really use mana for anything else, but it's crazy efficient regardless. It's more efficient than using that mana to kill 2 mobs. I was barely ever below 80% mana with this method and flew through levels lol.

[bcbrown]

Thanks for the responses everyone, sounds like most of my assumptions were correct. I hadn't considered that deadwood staves could break root, thanks for calling that out. And the lull/fd way to reset a pet sounds super useful.

Playing the necro has been tons of fun. I'm not trying to level super quickly, but rather trying to explore dungeons and camps I haven't seen much of before. Hag tower in unrest was nice, a good mix of being usually smooth sailing combined with the occasional "oh shit" when the middle spawn popped at an akward timer or the outside pather aggroes.

I did Mistmoore CE for a couple levels to see what it's like grouping on a necro and it was fun how different the playstyle is from soloing. We had an amazing group for a while and although I'm not sure whether I was being carried by the rest of the group I sure felt useful. When there wasn't an enchanter I could do passible CC with roots and screaming terror, and then otherwise nuke off excess mana while twitching the cleric whenever he got low. Was also fun just watching a really talented bard chain pull the entire castle.

Recently I've spent most of level 39 charming in Kaesora, and the xp's been good even though a lot of the fights are frustrating. I've been mostly posted up at the safe spot by the library near #6 on the map, sometimes by the two undead rooms on the way down from the spiders to the library. The heals from the wardens are obnoxious, and that little nook has three spawns, including one that's always a ravener, so it's a little annoying to break in. I've only died once down there, though, and that was after two consecutive crit FD failures.

I think I'm going to try the five towers area for a bit with a summoned pet and take it easy, letting it take 50% sometimes. I watched a bit of a video of someone doing that and it seemed real chill. I'm pretty well twinked with tunnel gear plus a z-heart and that's definitely helped a lot.

[spoil]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Coldain_Crossbow - 30 damage weapon, but temporary. So you can't keep them stored in your bank/bags after you camp. You can corpse them. I can't remember if these drop from dwarfs that are not a part of Ring War.

They drop off archers in Thurgadin near the exit to GD.

[kjs86z2]

Thanks for the responses everyone, sounds like most of my assumptions were correct. I hadn't considered that deadwood staves could break root, thanks for calling that out. And the lull/fd way to reset a pet sounds super useful.

Playing the necro has been tons of fun. I'm not trying to level super quickly, but rather trying to explore dungeons and camps I haven't seen much of before. Hag tower in unrest was nice, a good mix of being usually smooth sailing combined with the occasional "oh shit" when the middle spawn popped at an akward timer or the outside pather aggroes.

I did Mistmoore CE for a couple levels to see what it's like grouping on a necro and it was fun how different the playstyle is from soloing. We had an amazing group for a while and although I'm not sure whether I was being carried by the rest of the group I sure felt useful. When there wasn't an enchanter I could do passible CC with roots and screaming terror, and then otherwise nuke off excess mana while twitching the cleric whenever he got low. Was also fun just watching a really talented bard chain pull the entire castle.

Recently I've spent most of level 39 charming in Kaesora, and the xp's been good even though a lot of the fights are frustrating. I've been mostly posted up at the safe spot by the library near #6 on the map, sometimes by the two undead rooms on the way down from the spiders to the library. The heals from the wardens are obnoxious, and that little nook has three spawns, including one that's always a ravener, so it's a little annoying to break in. I've only died once down there, though, and that was after two consecutive crit FD failures.

I think I'm going to try the five towers area for a bit with a summoned pet and take it easy, letting it take 50% sometimes. I watched a bit of a video of someone doing that and it seemed real chill. I'm pretty well twinked with tunnel gear plus a z-heart and that's definitely helped a lot.

damn homie i should catch my enchanter up and we can duo charm kaesora $$$

[Wayward]

Recently I've spent most of level 39 charming in Kaesora, and the xp's been good even though a lot of the fights are frustrating. I've been mostly posted up at the safe spot by the library near #6 on the map, sometimes by the two undead rooms on the way down from the spiders to the library. The heals from the wardens are obnoxious, and that little nook has three spawns, including one that's always a ravener, so it's a little annoying to break in. I've only died once down there, though, and that was after two consecutive crit FD failures.

I think I'm going to try the five towers area for a bit with a summoned pet and take it easy, letting it take 50% sometimes. I watched a bit of a video of someone doing that and it seemed real chill. I'm pretty well twinked with tunnel gear plus a z-heart and that's definitely helped a lot.

I did 39-45 in the area outside of Xalgoz spawn. It's the easiest place to set up, theres a safe spot for AFK / camping. And plenty to keep going if you get a burst of energy and want 0 downtime.

Plus, the Fang will rot from someone camping Xalgoz and you've got half your HS key done.

[Crede]

Thanks for the responses everyone, sounds like most of my assumptions were correct. I hadn't considered that deadwood staves could break root, thanks for calling that out. And the lull/fd way to reset a pet sounds super useful.

Playing the necro has been tons of fun. I'm not trying to level super quickly, but rather trying to explore dungeons and camps I haven't seen much of before. Hag tower in unrest was nice, a good mix of being usually smooth sailing combined with the occasional "oh shit" when the middle spawn popped at an akward timer or the outside pather aggroes.

I did Mistmoore CE for a couple levels to see what it's like grouping on a necro and it was fun how different the playstyle is from soloing. We had an amazing group for a while and although I'm not sure whether I was being carried by the rest of the group I sure felt useful. When there wasn't an enchanter I could do passible CC with roots and screaming terror, and then otherwise nuke off excess mana while twitching the cleric whenever he got low. Was also fun just watching a really talented bard chain pull the entire castle.

Recently I've spent most of level 39 charming in Kaesora, and the xp's been good even though a lot of the fights are frustrating. I've been mostly posted up at the safe spot by the library near #6 on the map, sometimes by the two undead rooms on the way down from the spiders to the library. The heals from the wardens are obnoxious, and that little nook has three spawns, including one that's always a ravener, so it's a little annoying to break in. I've only died once down there, though, and that was after two consecutive crit FD failures.

I think I'm going to try the five towers area for a bit with a summoned pet and take it easy, letting it take 50% sometimes. I watched a bit of a video of someone doing that and it seemed real chill. I'm pretty well twinked with tunnel gear plus a z-heart and that's definitely helped a lot.

Warders arent bad. Just always charm them first and let them get smoked. Then when low break charm and nuke will land before they get a heal off. Easy pz. I forget if they actually heal if they are your pet but you can prob sit interrupt them if they do? Been a minute since I charmed in kaes.

[Wayward]

Warders arent bad. Just always charm them first and let them get smoked. Then when low break charm and nuke will land before they get a heal off. Easy pz. I forget if they actually heal if they are your pet but you can prob sit interrupt them if they do? Been a minute since I charmed in kaes.

Screaming Terror!

It's a PITA with the warders, but if you pet them -- then before theyre about to die, here's the keypress order. This works wonders with a pre-nerf CoS

1) F1 twice to target pet
2) Break with Circlet of Shadow click
3) Cast Screaming Terror
4) Cast undead Nuke

This is guaranteed to kill them (given they are low enough HP for 1 nuke to do the trick) without them healing.

[Crede]

Screaming Terror!

It's a PITA with the warders, but if you pet them -- then before theyre about to die, here's the keypress order. This works wonders with a pre-nerf CoS

1) F1 twice to target pet
2) Break with Circlet of Shadow click
3) Cast Screaming Terror
4) Cast undead Nuke

This is guaranteed to kill them (given they are low enough HP for 1 nuke to do the trick) without them healing.

Screaming terror shouldn’t be necesssary if you have a pre nerf cos just break at 1% and the nuke will win. The lower level nukes cast fast. I used hungry earth a lot too to finish mobs off.

[Wayward]

Screaming terror shouldn’t be necesssary if you have a pre nerf cos just break at 1% and the nuke will win. The lower level nukes cast fast. I used hungry earth a lot too to finish mobs off.

Yeah if you get em real low this works, but that's low enough for a double attack to kill them.

The level 39 undead nuke is a longer cast time than Healing and Greater Healing, but will do approx 20% damage to the warders.

The level 29 undead nuke is a longer cast time than Healing and only 0.45s less than Greater Healing, but will do approx 12-15% damage to the warders.

The level 20 undead nuke is only 0.25s less cast time than Healing and much faster than Greater Healing, but will only do approx 8% damage to the warders.

Hungry Earth is faster than Healing and Greater Healing, but will only do approx 3-4% damage to the warder.

I always preferred the safe bet, which worked 100% of the time, which was Screaming Terror and either the 39 nuke for 10% or more HP remaining, and the 29 nuke for less than 10%.

Too many times I've tried to time it so that the pet was like 2% HP and it gets double-attacked and killed.

[Vivitron]

I did 39-45 in the area outside of Xalgoz spawn. It's the easiest place to set up, theres a safe spot for AFK / camping. And plenty to keep going if you get a burst of energy and want 0 downtime.

Plus, the Fang will rot from someone camping Xalgoz and you've got half your HS key done.

I did that area too, some big pulls around there but fun. Towards the end of your stay in Kaesora (maybe 43+) you can do Xalgoz itself when you find it open. Some risk to killing him at that level, but doable.

[bcbrown]

damn homie i should catch my enchanter up and we can duo charm kaesora $$$

I've been saying that (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3790376&postcount=13)! I can put the necro on ice for a while if you want to catch up, I've got other toons I can play in the meantime.

I did 39-45 in the area outside of Xalgoz spawn. It's the easiest place to set up, theres a safe spot for AFK / camping. And plenty to keep going if you get a burst of energy and want 0 downtime.

I did a bit of exploring around the upper part of the five towers and it was decidedlly not chill. Too many pathers. I'll go back down to near the Xalgoz spawn. By safe spot do you mean the ramp behind Xalgoz or somewhere else?

I always preferred the safe bet, which worked 100% of the time, which was Screaming Terror and either the 39 nuke for 10% or more HP remaining, and the 29 nuke for less than 10%.

Too many times I've tried to time it so that the pet was like 2% HP and it gets double-attacked and killed.

Thanks for the suggestions and for listing all the timing of the nukes. I've only been memming the lvl39 nuke and hadn't been hitting the warder with screaming terror, so that advice should make dealing with them a lot easier. And I found out the hard way that Hungry Earth only works on undead, which sucks when one of the spawns in the corridor to #6 is always a Ravener.

I've only got a post-nerf CoS and a pre-nerf isn't in the budget yet, even though saving the 2-second click for charm breaks would make things much easier. I used a GGR for a while on a druid and it's amazing the difference an instant click makes.

[Crede]

I've been saying that (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3790376&postcount=13)! I can put the necro on ice for a while if you want to catch up, I've got other toons I can play in the meantime.



I did a bit of exploring around the upper part of the five towers and it was decidedlly not chill. Too many pathers. I'll go back down to near the Xalgoz spawn. By safe spot do you mean the ramp behind Xalgoz or somewhere else?



Thanks for the suggestions and for listing all the timing of the nukes. I've only been memming the lvl39 nuke and hadn't been hitting the warder with screaming terror, so that advice should make dealing with them a lot easier. And I found out the hard way that Hungry Earth only works on undead, which sucks when one of the spawns in the corridor to #6 is always a Ravener.

I've only got a post-nerf CoS and a pre-nerf isn't in the budget yet, even though saving the 2-second click for charm breaks would make things much easier. I used a GGR for a while on a druid and it's amazing the difference an instant click makes.

Instant clicky means you can break at 1-2% and get full exp with a nuke. Screaming terror is wasting mana but if you don’t care about that then by all means go for it. At later levels I’d use deflux to finish a mob off and splurt if one mob was winning too much. Also root in slot 1 is ideal as you can gcd reset to chain root mobs when you get to places like com/hs. Hungry earth is actually extremely efficient too I think I kept it up until deflux when mobs just have too much hp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't need an instant clicky for full XP breaks at a lower mana cost. As of yet, nobody has proven this actual helps, beyond the placebo effect. It isn't difficult to get a feel for combat and use a non-instant clicky. I have no trouble with non instant clickies.

Pre-nerf CoF's are great, and I suggest SK/Necros get them. But you don't need to wait for that. Post-nerf CoS works fine while you are saving up for pre-nerf.

[Goregasmic]

You don't need an instant clicky for full XP breaks at a lower mana cost. As of yet, nobody has proven this actual helps, beyond the placebo effect. It isn't difficult to get a feel for combat and use a non-instant clicky. I have no trouble with non instant clickies.

Pre-nerf CoF's are great, and I suggest SK/Necros get them. But you don't need to wait for that. Post-nerf CoS works fine while you are saving up for pre-nerf.

Instant charm break is nice to have and it helps a little but absolutely not necessary especially if it comes with a hefty price tag. Wouldn't have traded my GGR while leveling but at 60 I tossed it for the RoST, which I pretty much never leave home without.

I don't play necro but if I recall correctly the main draw of pre-nerf CoS is basically standing up invis from FD. Most people I saw talking about it said it is nice to have but isn't really worth the price tag either.

[kjs86z2]

I don't play necro but if I recall correctly the main draw of pre-nerf CoS is basically standing up invis from FD. Most people I saw talking about it said it is nice to have but isn't really worth the price tag either.

this

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Instant charm break is nice to have and it helps a little but absolutely not necessary especially if it comes with a hefty price tag. Wouldn't have traded my GGR while leveling but at 60 I tossed it for the RoST, which I pretty much never leave home without.

I don't play necro but if I recall correctly the main draw of pre-nerf CoS is basically standing up invis from FD. Most people I saw talking about it said it is nice to have but isn't really worth the price tag either.

I am also going to switch to Ring of Stealthy Travel for charm breaks on my Ench when she can use it. GGR is nice while leveling since it has a lower level requirement. Post nerf CoS is clickable at 20 I think, so it's still great for leveling if you don't want to spend 5k on GGR. And the invis is more useful since it's regular invis.

Yeah Pre-Nerf CoF is great for other things besides charm break. I have one on my SK. That is why I still recommended getting one in my previous post. Instant Invis after FD is nice for sure. Being able to re-invis while running if it drops is fun too. It isn't a requirement though. You can always carry around a few Ring of Shadows for instant invis after FD if you want to be cheap.

[Wayward]

I don't play necro but if I recall correctly the main draw of pre-nerf CoS is basically standing up invis from FD. Most people I saw talking about it said it is nice to have but isn't really worth the price tag either.

The main draw is instant charm break, really. Mobs 35+ won't mem blur instantly when you FD, and most higher level dungeons have mobs that see invis anyway.

But when you have 2-3 mobs rooted, and your pet is tanking one - then one breaks root and you get interrupted and have to manage re-rooting to get things under control.. and then you notice your pet is 1 hit away from dying so you can just click your CoS to save your torch / exp / Tola robe.

At least that's what I've found most useful in my hundreds of hours playing Necro on p99 Green.

[Wayward]

I am also going to switch to Ring of Stealthy Travel for charm breaks on my Ench when she can use it.

Yeah the biggest benefit to the Ring over a GGR is that you don't have to target yourself to cast it -- works well when you have to Nuke your old pet, or Mez, or Root and you don't have to switch targets before casting the offensive spell.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah the biggest benefit to the Ring over a GGR is that you don't have to target yourself to cast it -- works well when you have to Nuke your old pet, or Mez, or Root and you don't have to switch targets before casting the offensive spell.

I agree. I don't like having to self target with GGR. When you take the time to retarget into account, Ring of Stealthy Travel isn't much slower than GGR anyway. Plus you can use Ring for normal invis, so you don't need to mem it anymore.

[Goregasmic]

I'm so drilled to grr that a year later I still self target for invis even if I don't have to.

Not having to self target is better but shows you how much of a non-issue it was, at least for me.

[kjs86z2]

I've been saying that (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3790376&postcount=13)! I can put the necro on ice for a while if you want to catch up, I've got other toons I can play in the meantime.



Been busy traveling for work. I'm home for about a week and a half then gone for another two weeks.

I'll see if I can get some catch up levels this week.

[Crede]

I agree. I don't like having to self target with GGR. When you take the time to retarget into account, Ring of Stealthy Travel isn't much slower than GGR anyway. Plus you can use Ring for normal invis, so you don't need to mem it anymore.

Retargeting takes a single keystroke. Instant invis means you can break your pet and be casting on it in less than a half a second. If you have 4+ mobs hitting your pet in a zone like HS this can be the difference between either losing your pet or having to use multiple nukes to kill your pet and waste mana. Since you’re enc is low level I assume you haven’t done this before, and low level roots aren’t reliable enough to want to have that many mobs at once. The ROST is still a great item to have, but if you’re trying to maximize xp per hour there’s no reason to not have insta invis. The GGR ring is easily farmable or not that expensive to buy. Obviously pre nerf cos is the best for necros but that’s not so easy to acquire nowadays.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Retargeting takes a single keystroke. Instant invis means you can break your pet and be casting on it in less than a half a second. If you have 4+ mobs hitting your pet in a zone like HS this can be the difference between either losing your pet or having to use multiple nukes to kill your pet and waste mana. Since you’re enc is low level I assume you haven’t done this before, and low level roots aren’t reliable enough to want to have that many mobs at once. The ROST is still a great item to have, but if you’re trying to maximize xp per hour there’s no reason to not have insta invis. The GGR ring is easily farmable or not that expensive to buy. Obviously pre nerf cos is the best for necros but that’s not so easy to acquire nowadays.

I've played the game for years. I have done tons of difficult fights as a level 60, including fighting in HS. I understand how these fights work. Anticipating how quickly a mob will die is easy, especially within a 2 second window. This includes multiple attackers on a single target.

https://youtu.be/qYCpsgMYx7A?si=83q7flFeo3cerg9E - I can show a scenario where I didn't need instant invis to get full XP via charming, and I used a lower level nuke to save mana. You have yet to provide any evidence for your position, where you got more kills per hour with GGR compared to RoST.

My video shows an obvious flaw with your argument: How can you actually know if the instant invis on GGR was a factor in getting more kills per hour, if you can do the same thing without GGR?

You can hide behind the Argument from Authority fallacy if you wish, by claiming you must have a level 60 Enchanter to understand. In reality you don't need a level 60 of every class to know how the game works.

[Crede]

I've played the game for years. I have done tons of difficult fights as a level 60, including fighting in HS. I understand how these fights work. Anticipating how quickly a mob will die is easy, especially within a 2 second window. This includes multiple attackers on a single target.

https://youtu.be/qYCpsgMYx7A?si=83q7flFeo3cerg9E - I can show a scenario where I didn't need instant invis to get full XP via charming, and I used a lower level nuke to save mana. You have yet to provide any evidence for your position, where you got more kills per hour with GGR compared to RoST.

My video shows an obvious flaw with your argument: How can you actually know if the instant invis on GGR was a factor in getting more kills per hour, if you can do the same thing without GGR?

You can hide behind the Argument from Authority fallacy if you wish, by claiming you must have a level 60 Enchanter to understand. In reality you don't need a level 60 of every class to know how the game works.

It’s sad that you used a 1 on 1 video when I was specifically talking about 4+ higher level mobs at once. Clearly we are at different skill levels so continue with your low level antics. The RoST works great killing mobs at a snails pace, I never denied it was a good item to have. When you feel like playing with the big players let us know.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s sad that you used a 1 on 1 video when I was specifically talking about 4+ higher level mobs at once. Clearly we are at different skill levels so continue with your low level antics. The RoST works great killing mobs at a snails pace, I never denied it was a good item to have. When you feel like playing with the big players let us know.

More argument from authority fallacy. No evidence or videos.

I assume you understand the basic concept that high level mobs do the same behaviors, regardless of your character's class. I have fought 4+ high level mobs many times. I have seen level 60 Enchanters do the same. A level 60 knows how much DPS they are going to take on their character or pet from 4+ mobs.

If you are as skilled as you claimed, you wouldn't need GGR as a placebo crutch. 2 second anticipation in a high level fight is easy, even with 4+ mobs.

[Wayward]

Retargeting takes a single keystroke. Instant invis means you can break your pet and be casting on it in less than a half a second. If you have 4+ mobs hitting your pet in a zone like HS this can be the difference between either losing your pet or having to use multiple nukes to kill your pet and waste mana. Since you’re enc is low level I assume you haven’t done this before, and low level roots aren’t reliable enough to want to have that many mobs at once. The ROST is still a great item to have, but if you’re trying to maximize xp per hour there’s no reason to not have insta invis. The GGR ring is easily farmable or not that expensive to buy. Obviously pre nerf cos is the best for necros but that’s not so easy to acquire nowadays.

Another (small) reason I prefer the stealthy travel over GGR on my enchanter is that it at least has 35mana 35HP to wear consistently. Yeah, it really doesn't make a difference with 2k HP and 3.5k mana, but it is also a reason to not to swap out items . even just normal use invis, its superior to the velious boots which require a target and have longer cast time.

[Crede]

More argument from authority fallacy. No evidence or videos.

Do you understand the basic concept that level 60 fights work the same, regardless of class? I have fought 4+ high level mobs many times. I have seen level 60 Enchanters do the same.

If you are a skilled as you claimed, you wouldn't need GGR as a placebo crutch. 2 second anticipation in a high level fight is easy, even with 4+ mobs.

Level 60 fights are completely different, especially for enchanters. The fact that you don’t understand this simply shows your lacking experience and ruins your credibility. I’ve already stated the facts, I have no need to go and prove it to somebody like you. Continue on with your 1 v 1 enc low tier fights.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Level 60 fights are completely different, especially for enchanters. The fact that you don’t understand this simply shows your lacking experience and ruins your credibility. I’ve already stated the facts, I have no need to go and prove it to somebody like you. Continue on with your 1 v 1 enc low tier fights.

I am fairly certain you purposely misunderstood my post to try and score points, because you have no evidence for your position. Please don't ruin your credibility and reputation with such childish tactics. This doesn't support your position.

I didn't say "An Enchanter plays the same as a Shaman", or "The tactics of an Enchanter are the same as a Shaman", or "A level 1 Enchanter plays the same as a level 60 Enchanter", or whatever else you are insinuating. You know that, please don't play dumb.

My point is that if you've fought mobs in HS, you understand how they work in terms of behaviors, DPS, etc. You don't need to be a level 60 Enchanter to know how the mobs in HS work.

I can anticipate how much damage 4+ HS mobs will do to me in 2 seconds on my Shaman and Shadowknight. That means you can do the same with your pet.

[BradZax]

I enjoy playing a low level enchanter as if it’s a level 60 enchanter and the gameplay is exactly the same.

You can solo sola bar at level 36 as an enchanter and it is just as hard as soloing the chef at 60.

Same gameplay.

[Crede]

Another (small) reason I prefer the stealthy travel over GGR on my enchanter is that it at least has 35mana 35HP to wear consistently. Yeah, it really doesn't make a difference with 2k HP and 3.5k mana, but it is also a reason to not to swap out items . even just normal use invis, its superior to the velious boots which require a target and have longer cast time.

I’m with you the ROST is a solid item and everyone should get it if they can. But when talking about xp per hour instant invis is gonna give you more reliable breaks without risk of wasting extra mana to kill your old pet or trying to time the casting delay and lose your pet. This could be proved over a long period of testing I just don’t feel the need to because I’ve already seen it while leveling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I enjoy playing a low level enchanter as if it’s a level 60 enchanter and the gameplay is exactly the same.

You can solo sola bar at level 36 as an enchanter and it is just as hard as soloing the chef at 60.

Same gameplay.

That's not what I said. Nor is my video claiming this. Everybody can read the forums, I really don't understand why people think lying is a valid tactic when the evidence is readily available.

Unfortunately people backed into a corner due to lack of evidence resort to childish nonsense.

I’m with you the ROST is a solid item and everyone should get it if they can. But when talking about xp per hour instant invis is gonna give you more reliable breaks without risk of wasting extra mana to kill your old pet or trying to time the casting delay and lose your pet. This could be proved over a long period of testing I just don’t feel the need to because I’ve already seen it while leveling.

"Trust me bro" is not evidence. You haven't proven you can get more kills per hour via GGR. Please stop making baseless claims.

Again, it is easy to predict bow quickly something will die if you have experienced the content. You don't need to be a level 60 Enchanter to understand how to kill Fungi King, or any other mob. Nor do you need to be a 60 Enchanter to understand how much DPS 4+ mobs will do over a period of time.

[Wayward]

I’m with you the ROST is a solid item and everyone should get it if they can. But when talking about xp per hour instant invis is gonna give you more reliable breaks without risk of wasting extra mana to kill your old pet or trying to time the casting delay and lose your pet. This could be proved over a long period of testing I just don’t feel the need to because I’ve already seen it while leveling.

Yeah, maybe the GGR is better for getting that split-second pet break at 0% - saving a bit of mana trying to finish pet.

Just another reason Necros have a superior charm kit - Instant break without target needed with CoS, and 2 different mana-free DoT options that stack to finish off old pets.

Oh yeah and the OP nature of Pacify pet before Feigning Death to reset.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, maybe the GGR is better for getting that split-second pet break at 0% - saving a bit of mana trying to finish pet.

Just another reason Necros have a superior charm kit - Instant break without target needed with CoS, and 2 different mana-free DoT options that stack to finish off old pets.

Oh yeah and the OP nature of Pacify pet before Feigning Death to reset.

Split second breaks have no inherit advantage. If anything, they are riskier. GGR is an item that is great at tricking your brain into survivorship bias. People remember the 0% clutch breaks more than the times they lost their pet and got no XP.

[Wayward]

Split second breaks have no inherit advantage. If anything, they are riskier. GGR is an item that is great at tricking your brain into survivorship bias. People remember the 0% clutch breaks more than the times they lost their pet and got no XP.

I mean, I tend to agree. I have lost more pet weapons on my Necro from waiting too long to break with CoS than I have with my enchanter's RoST, where I anticipated the cast time

[spoil]

I disagree 100%. Instant charm break is so much more efficient over the course of your leveling career, accounting for occasional slip-ups. Less HP on both mobs = cheaper nukes to kill your broken pet and mob.

It's also way easier to make a mistake with a longer cast time. GGR is well worth the price, if not actually doing the camp yourself.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I disagree 100%. Instant charm break is so much more efficient over the course of your leveling career, accounting for occasional slip-ups. Less HP on both mobs = cheaper nukes to kill your broken pet and mob.

It's also way easier to make a mistake with a longer cast time.

Not one person has provided evidence for this on the entire forum to my knowledge.

We can logically break it down though.

Let's say your charmed pet has 8000 hp, and 4 mobs are attacking it. Each mob does 50 DPS, so your pet is taking ~200 DPS per second.

You want to use Anarchy (288 damage for 160 mana) instead of Dementia (675 damage for 250 mana) to save 90 mana per kill.

1. Using GGR, you want to break charm when the mob is at 200hp so you can 1 shot the pet. This means you only have 1 second to react before your pet dies. The pet is so low at this point, an extra double attack could kill your pet.

Worst case: You get zero XP and waste like 1000 mana.

2. Using RoST, you can start casting when the pet is around 800 hp, to take into acocunt a possible damage spike.

Worst case: you spend 320 mana for 2 Anarchies instead of 160 mana for 1 Anarchy, or you just use Dementia for 250 mana.

The issue with GGR is it gives people a serious case of survivorship bias. You could easily waste 1000 mana on a 0 XP kill by cutting it too close, when you are trying to save 90 mana per kill. You need to kill 11 mobs to make up one 0 XP mob mana-wise.

GGR increases your odds of a 0 XP mob, and even the occasional 0 XP mob creates a fairly large mana deficit that takes a while to recover from.

If your argument is "I am so good that I never get 0 XP kills", then you are good enough to use RoST efficiently via prediction. You are able to save the same amount of mana with RoST as you would with GGR.

[Zuranthium]

Instant charm break is obviously more powerful, but it's no surprise who is trying to gaslight and pretend there is "no possible advantage", since they need to justify their lazier playstyle and not buying a GGR.

Split second breaks have no inherit advantage. If anything, they are riskier.

A wholly stupid statement. You don't need to play risky at the very last sliver of health just because you are able to do an instant break. In every case of "safely timing" a 2 second cast break, you could have simply used the instant break at the same time, without having to cast, therefore giving you more time to meditate or move.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Instant charm break is obviously more powerful, but it's no surprise who is trying to gaslight and pretend there is "no possible advantage", since they need to justify their lazier playstyle and not buying a GGR.

Personal attacks and no evidence for your claims. That is your usual posting strategy, so I am not suprised you are wasting our time here. You are making another baseless claim. I use GGR on my Enchanter for charm breaks. I know how it works. I will be switching to RoST when I can use it.


A wholly stupid statement. You don't need to play risky at the very last sliver of health just because you are able to do an instant break. In every case of "safely timing" a 2 second cast break, you could have simply used the instant break at the same time, without having to cast, therefore giving you more time to meditate or move.

If you read the thread, the claim is breaking charm at the last possible second allows you to save mana via cheaper nukes, because the mob has less hp. That is the supposed advantage of GGR. That is a riskier playstyle.

Can you use GGR to break charm earlier? Sure, but then you might as well just use RoST. Realistically most people aren't going from standing to sitting every 6 seconds on tick for max mdeditate ticks per hour. So no, most people are not using GGR to try and get an extra med tick via instant cast.

[Zuranthium]

LMAO. Ignoring the facts and more gaslighting, as always.

Keep repeating the fallacious "evidence" catchphrase ad nauseum as a losing attempt to discount the extensive personal experiences that have been presented. You're the one who has no evidence — your entire sad argument is built on a single example where you don't need instant break, trying to say "see, I didn't need it!", while ignoring the amount of time you're losing with your playstyle.

If there was a competitive environment around this, then all of the most successful players would be using instant charm break. Only someone who has never played an action game competitively would ever attempt to argue otherwise. Structured tournaments of exactly equal conditions where people compete to see who can kill more NPC's via charm in 8 hours will never exist in this game, but the effect of that gameplay still exists.

Especially after the resist and channeling changes get put in, you are NOT going to want to be stuck casting a spell unnecessarily. If a charm break happens while casting invis, that's crucial time you've now lost that should have been spent casting stun, and the split second difference of casting stun before they get in melee range is going to be the difference between life and death at times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

LMAO. Ignoring the facts and more gaslighting, as always.

Keep repeating the fallacious "evidence" catchphrase ad nauseum as a losing attempt to discount the extensive personal experiences that have been presented. You're the one who has no evidence — your entire sad argument is built on a single example where you don't need instant break, trying to say "see, I didn't need it!", while ignoring the amount of time you're losing with your playstyle.

If there was a competitive environment around this, then all of the most successful players would be using instant charm break. Only someone who has never played an action game competitively would ever attempt to argue otherwise. Structured tournaments of exactly equal conditions where people compete to see who can kill more NPC's via charm in 8 hours will never exist in this game, but the effect of that gameplay still exists.

Especially after the resist and channeling changes get put in, you are NOT going to want to be stuck casting a spell unnecessarily. If a charm break happens while casting invis, that's crucial time you've now lost that should have been spent casting stun, and the split second difference of casting stun before they get in melee range is going to be the difference between life and death at times.

You completely missed the point of the Enchanter video I posted. It wasn't to show off a playstyle. This is because you want to insult me, rather than have a discussion. I am not suprised, since you are clearly having a difficult time with basic comprehension.

There are varying degrees of the claim "instant cast invis is superior for charm breaks".

The only purpose of this video (https://youtu.be/qYCpsgMYx7A?is=Y9cBrUQRr1JaaPNY) is to disprove the most extreme version of the claim, which is "instant cast invis is required to get full XP and save mana via cheaper nukes on charm break". You can use a cheaper nuke and get full XP without instant cast invis, as the video shows.

YOU are the one making the positive claim "instant cast invis is superior for charm breaks". YOU need to supply the evidence for that positive claim. The reason why you don't is because it takes a lot of effort to do, as you need to record multiple long play sessions with charm and compare kills per hour. You probably know I am right as well, so you don't want to spend the time proving me right.

You do understand that you are casting GGR or RoST to BREAK charm, right? If charm breaks during the cast, you just duck RoST. The mob is already broken, so you don't need to finish the RoST cast. And if you want to make the positive claim "ducking takes too much time away from your stun cast", you'll need to supply evidence for that claim too.

[Ripqozko]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/0 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/213 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/964 (0%)
+ Life: 7/5643 (0%)
```

[DeathsSilkyMist]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/0 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/213 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/964 (0%)
+ Life: 7/5643 (0%)
```

I know you miss me buddy! Sorry that I haven't had time to raid with you. Maybe sometime soon!

[spoil]

If you read the thread, the claim is breaking charm at the last possible second allows you to save mana via cheaper nukes, because the mob has less hp. That is the supposed advantage of GGR. That is a riskier playstyle.


It's not inherently a riskier playstyle, you're just assuming breaks "at the last possible second" rather than breaks near the last second, but within a safe threshold based on your experience. It's less risky than adding a cast time to the equation, you just break charm at the appropriate time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you're just assuming breaks "at the last possible second" rather than breaks near the last second, but within a safe threshold based on your experience.

You are agreeing with what I have been saying then. If you are confident that the mob is going to die within the next 4 seconds due to your experience with the game, the 2 second cast time from RoST fits within that timeframe. You can get the same result with GGR and RoST.

[bcbrown]

If you are confident that the mob is going to die within the next 4 seconds due to your experience with the game, the 2 second cast time from RoST fits within that timeframe. You can get the same result with GGR and RoST.

Just to be clear, you believe that the instant cast aspect of GGR provides zero benefit over the 2-second cast of RoST in 1v1 charming where you plan to break charm after every fight? There's no benefit at all? No difference?

[Zuranthium]

if you want to make the positive claim "ducking takes too much time away from your stun cast", you'll need to supply evidence for that claim too.

You are so insane.

No "evidence" needs to be supplied. It's a fact that ducking takes extra time, everyone understands this. Losing time is an inherent detriment. You still don't get it, after how many years now?

Also since you still don't understand the most basic layer of why it's worse to waste time like this in competitive gameplay, I'll reiterate again:

The maximum mode of production in this game involves sitting down as much as possible to gain mana. Any time you cast something, without specifically timing it between ticks, you're possibly losing mana. A "zero mana" 2 second activation ability, that isn't being used solely during controlled downtime, in fact costs more mana over time than an instant cast ability, as you're inherently creating a higher chance of missing a med tick by standing up longer.

[kjs86z2]

Yeah, maybe the GGR is better for getting that split-second pet break at 0% - saving a bit of mana trying to finish pet.

Just another reason Necros have a superior charm kit - Instant break without target needed with CoS, and 2 different mana-free DoT options that stack to finish off old pets.

Oh yeah and the OP nature of Pacify pet before Feigning Death to reset.

lmao thinking necros kit is superior for charming

just lmao

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just to be clear, you believe that the instant cast aspect of GGR provides zero benefit over the 2-second cast of RoST in 1v1 charming where you plan to break charm after every fight? There's no benefit at all? No difference?

The biggest claim most people seem to make with GGR is it allows you to "get more kills per hour via mana saving by using cheaper nukes". There has been zero evidence provided for this by any advocate of instant cast invis. Nor have I seen this myself, as I can get the same mana savings with non-instant cast invis.

There are some other theoretical benefits, but I can't think of a scenario where they would make sense.

1. You could guarantee a charm break while being attacked, as instant cast cannot be interrupted. But if you are being attacked, breaking charm will add another mob to the list of mobs attacking you. Doesn't seem like a great idea, especially on a cloth caster.

2. You could break charm while moving. But if you want to cast spells on the mobs, you still need to be within casting range. I can't really think of a scenario that would require you to move for 2 seconds, break charm on the move, and still be in range of the mob all at the same time. You can just position correctly beforehand.

3. It would be easier in theory to get a med tick if you are one of the rare individuals who tries to sit every 6 seconds for max med ticks. Honestly though after playing on the server for 10+ years, I've never seen anyone do this consistently for any play session. It's too much work for most people. Closest thing to this is canni dancing. I guess if you happen to have a manastone, maybe you'll get some benefit.

Nothing I mentioned above is noteworthy for normal players who don't sit every 6 seconds, or have a manastone.

RoST has benefits as well:
1. You don't need to retarget. You can pretarget while RoST is casting.
2. It acts as your invis item, so you don't need to mem invis.
3. You don't need multiple inventory slots used for GGR + invis item(s).

RoST has better benefits for a normal player, and there is no evidence GGR gives more kills per hour.

You are so insane.

No "evidence" needs to be supplied. It's a fact that ducking takes extra time, everyone understands this. Losing time is an inherent detriment. You still don't get it, after how many years now?

Also since you still don't understand the most basic layer of why it's worse to waste time like this in competitive gameplay, I'll reiterate again:

The maximum mode of production in this game involves sitting down as much as possible to gain mana. Any time you cast something, without specifically timing it between ticks, you're possibly losing mana. A "zero mana" 2 second activation ability, that isn't being used solely during controlled downtime, in fact costs more mana over time than an instant cast ability, as you're inherently creating a higher chance of missing a med tick by standing up longer.

You are so silly. Of course ducking takes time lol. I wasn't asking for evidence of that. You clearly cannot read. The evidence I am asking for is realistic scenarios where ducking before a stun cast would be detrimental. I've ducked a lot of spells over the years, even when being attacked. I am not convinced you are going to have a problem. The odds of charm breaking during an RoST cast, AND ducking is a problem on your stun cast time, is a very very rare scenario.

Most people do not use GGR to get extra med ticks. After 10+ years on the server and playing with 100s of people, I haven't seen this behavior with any consistency. Everybody understands you can get med ticks if you sit every 6 seconds while running. People just don't do it, because it's annoying.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The maximum mode of production in this game involves sitting down as much as possible to gain mana. Any time you cast something, without specifically timing it between ticks, you're possibly losing mana. A "zero mana" 2 second activation ability, that isn't being used solely during controlled downtime, in fact costs more mana over time than an instant cast ability, as you're inherently creating a higher chance of missing a med tick by standing up longer.

One more point on this:

https://youtu.be/eH_b-waHS5M?is=DsgOQ-J5D_APqejQ

This is Zuranthium's video of a charm kill on his Druid. He is standing the entire time during the fight. He does not attempt to get med ticks when he could have. He doesn't even practice what he preaches.

This is how most people actually play, even Zuranthium himself. Not only is sitting every 6 seconds annoying during a fight, it can be dangerous. If you get hit while sitting, that is a max damage hit.

[kjs86z2]

ITT: lots of mediocre to bad players

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ITT: lots of mediocre to bad players

Indeed. There has been no evidence presented that suggests a skilled Enchanter/Druid/Necromancer will get more kills per hour using GGR compared to RoST for charm breaks. "Trust me bro" is not an argument, yet it keeps getting repeated ad nauseum.

[Crede]

RoST has benefits as well:
1. You don't need to retarget. You can pretarget while RoST is casting.
2. It acts as your invis item, so you don't need to mem invis.
3. You don't need multiple inventory slots used for GGR + invis item(s).

RoST has better benefits for a normal player, and there is no evidence GGR gives more kills per .

Meanwhile dsms “trust me bro” arguments in favor of using the ROST because he finds targeting himself with ggr annoying. And claims it’s better for normal players by some false sense of authority lol. Classic. Yet still claims shamans can root rot to compete with mage dps even tho he’s too lazy to target himself. While still having not provided evidence years later. So sad.

[Crede]

ITT: lots of mediocre to bad players

Was my conclusion early on. Seen that especially with dsm and his mediocre play.

[Crede]

I know you miss me buddy! Sorry that I haven't had time to raid with you. Maybe sometime soon!

Calling bs on this too. Has plenty of time to edit posts and make thousands of them. Raiding with a bat phone doesn’t take long.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Meanwhile dsms “trust me bro” arguments in favor of using the ROST because he finds targeting himself with ggr annoying. And claims it’s better for normal players by some false sense of authority lol. Classic. Yet still claims shamans can root rot to compete with mage dps even tho he’s too lazy to target himself. While still having not provided evidence years later. So sad.

As you can see, Crede has still not provided any evidence for his initial claim:

But when talking about xp per hour instant invis is gonna give you more reliable breaks without risk of wasting extra mana to kill your old pet or trying to time the casting delay and lose your pet. This could be proved over a long period of testing I just don’t feel the need to because I’ve already seen it while leveling.

There is no evidence to suggest a skilled Enchanter cannot get the same kills per hour with RoST compared to GGR. He is just saying "trust me bro" over and over, with some insults and Argument from Authority fallacy sprinkled in. One day he may learn that when he makes a positive claim, he actually needs to back it up with evidence.

He is now flailing. It is strange to see someone suggest that obvious facts like "GGR + 1 Invis item take up two inventory slots" is a "trust me bro" argument.

Calling bs on this too. Has plenty of time to edit posts and make thousands of them. Raiding with a bat phone doesn’t take long.

Pretending that someone's current raid attendance is the only way to guage raid experience is a silly argument. We all know this. You are just flailing because you know you are wrong.

[kjs86z2]

There is no evidence to suggest a skilled Enchanter cannot get the same kills per hour with RoST compared to GGR. He is just saying "trust me bro" over and over, with some insults and Argument from Authority fallacy sprinkled in. One day he may learn that when he makes a positive claim, he actually needs to back it up with evidence.

.

You don't need evidence.

Anyone that has solo leveled an enchanter would always, always take a GGR if available.

DSM we all know you're a mediocre at best torpor shaman and standard wall-licker raider. Just stop.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't need evidence.

Anyone that has solo leveled an enchanter would always, always take a GGR if available.

DSM we all know you're a mediocre at best torpor shaman and standard wall-licker raider. Just stop.

A forum troll who was banned on his original account Toxigen is not someone to take advice from. Sorry you don't got your forum account due to bad behavior.

Please stop posting nonsense.

If you are as experienced as you claim, providing evidence should be trivial.

[kjs86z2]

lol

[bcbrown]

RoST has better benefits for a normal player, and there is no evidence GGR gives more kills per hour.

Ok, sounds like I read you correctly as saying GGR provides no benefits over an instant clicky.

RoST and postnerf CoS have a 2 second cast, and iirc mobs have 30 delay, or 3 seconds between combat rounds. Since earlier you criticized a reverse-charming scenario with GGR by saying "This means you only have 1 second to react before your pet dies", I assume you agree that you should expect one combat round to happen if you're casting a 2-second invis to break charm?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok, sounds like I read you correctly as saying GGR provides no benefits over an instant clicky.

RoST and postnerf CoS have a 2 second cast, and iirc mobs have 30 delay, or 3 seconds between combat rounds. Since earlier you criticized a reverse-charming scenario with GGR by saying "This means you only have 1 second to react before your pet dies", I assume you agree that you should expect one combat round to happen if you're casting a 2-second invis to break charm?

Post-nerf CoS has a 5 second cast. RoST has a 2 second cast.

I am not going to play your silly troll game of stringing out posts out via questions that could be answered by reading what I've said in the thread already. It is a waste of time. Just to he clear, the post you are referring to was talking about avarage DPS, not combat rounds.

If you have evidence and/or logical reasoning for why you think GGR is better, please post it all, and we can go through it together.

[bcbrown]

Ok, since you earlier said "2 second anticipation in a high level fight is easy" it sounds like you agree that one should expect one combat round to happen when using RoST.

I just want to make sure we're on the same page regarding the comparison before I get into the math. This is all in the context of 1v1 charm killing for xp when you plan to get both mobs low, break charm, then kill them both. You're going to have some target hp % on the lower-health of the two mobs when you want charm to break, and that's going to be just above the max one-round damage it can take, right?

So for example, if you see over the course of the fight that the max damage in one round is 5%, using a GGR you'll click it as soon as the lower-health mob hits 6%. And if you have a RoST and are "anticipating 2 seconds", you'll click it as soon as the lower-health mob hits 11%, so that even if a max round happens while it's casting, it'll still be at 6%.

If you agree with the context of that scenario then I can get into the reasoning. If you don't agree then let's get that settled first.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok, since you earlier said "2 second anticipation in a high level fight is easy" it sounds like you agree that one should expect one combat round to happen when using RoST.

I just want to make sure we're on the same page regarding the comparison before I get into the math. This is all in the context of 1v1 charm killing for xp when you plan to get both mobs low, break charm, then kill them both. You're going to have some target hp % on the lower-health of the two mobs when you want charm to break, and that's going to be just above the max one-round damage it can take, right?

So for example, if you see over the course of the fight that the max damage in one round is 5%, using a GGR you'll click it as soon as the lower-health mob hits 6%. And if you have a RoST and are "anticipating 2 seconds", you'll click it as soon as the lower-health mob hits 11%, so that even if a max round happens while it's casting, it'll still be at 6%.

If you agree with the context of that scenario then I can get into the reasoning. If you don't agree then let's get that settled first.

I am not going to play your game. Post your evidence/math/logic, or admit defeat. You don't need my permission to post your thoughts.

[bcbrown]

So in this scenario we're assuming max damage is 5%, one combat round happens while casting RoST, no combat round happens while casting GGR, and that the GGR user will cast as soon as the lower-health mob hits 6% and the RoST user will cast as soon as the lower-health mob hits 11%.

In this scenario the GGR user will always have the lower-health mob be under 5%. For the RoST user, looking at my data while charming gators in cazic thule, there was a 57% hit rate: 8029 occurances of "An alligator bites an alligator", and 5877 occurances of "An alligator tries to bite an alligator".

So 43% of the time that combat round that occurs while casting RoST will be a miss, and therefore 43% of the time the RoST user will end up having to kill a mob with 11% hp left, while the GGR user never has to face a mob with more than 6%.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So in this scenario we're assuming max damage is 5%, one combat round happens while casting RoST, no combat round happens while casting GGR, and that the GGR user will cast as soon as the lower-health mob hits 6% and the RoST user will cast as soon as the lower-health mob hits 11%.

In this scenario the GGR user will always have the lower-health mob be under 5%. For the RoST user, looking at my data while charming gators in cazic thule, there was a 57% hit rate: 8029 occurances of "An alligator bites an alligator", and 5877 occurances of "An alligator tries to bite an alligator".

So 43% of the time that combat round that occurs while casting RoST will be a miss, and therefore 43% of the time the RoST user will end up having to kill a mob with 11% hp left, while the GGR user never has to face a mob with more than 6%.

In this scenario:

1. Combat round 3 (kills gator) - 4 seconds
2. Combat round 2 (6% HP) - 2 seconds
3. Combat round 1 (11% HP) - 0 seconds

You can just do this with RoST:

1. Combat round 3 (kills gator) - 4 seconds
2. End RoST cast - 3 seconds
3. Combat round 2 (6% HP) - 2 seconds
4. Start RoST cast - 1 second
5. Combat round 1 (11% HP) - 0 seconds

If line 3 (combat round 2) with RoST is a miss, you duck RoST cast and then start over, as the gator is still at 11%.

[bcbrown]

If step 3 with RoST is a miss, you duck RoST cast and then start over, as the gator is still at 11%.

Attached is a chart of the last 1000 gator v gator hits I logged while leveling in gator alley. I think there's variation of three or four levels, so it's not a clean 20 damage intervals, but the pattern is clear. There's a spike at max or near-max hits but still plenty of small hits. There's a 33% cumulative chance of a hit of less than 30, a 50% cumulative chance of a hit of less than 44, and a max hit of 62.

So even if you duck off all the misses, there's still a 50% chance of a hit of less than 3% health, leaving you with a mob above 8%, while the GGR user never has the lower-health mob above 6%.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Attached is a chart of the last 1000 gator v gator hits I logged while leveling in gator alley. I think there's variation of three or four levels, so it's not a clean 20 damage intervals, but the pattern is clear. There's a spike at max or near-max hits but still plenty of small hits. There's a 33% cumulative chance of a hit of less than 30, a 50% cumulative chance of a hit of less than 44, and a max hit of 62.


This is why prediction in P99 is generally pretty easy. It isn't difficult to figure out the avarage damage and max damage per hit. You typically know them on a subconcious level when you get familiar with an area.

If you know that 6% HP is the maxium damage the mob will take in a normal round, for example, it isn't difficult to know when to start casting RoST. The worst cast scenario is a 12% HP reduction due to a double attack where both damage values are max hits.

If you want to be super stafe, you can start your RoST casts at 13%-18%, and duck until you are satisfied. That way you can account for the small chance of the mob going from 18% to 6% or 13% to 1% in a single round, and you still end up with the 6% HP or less needed to one shot the mob.

In a scenario where the mob is at 12% HP and dies due to a double attack with 2 max hits, that is a problem that GGR users have to contend with as well, since they are waiting for a lower HP value before breaking anyway.

[bcbrown]

So it sounds like that you have no objections to my conclusion then:

So even if you duck off all the misses, there's still a 50% chance of a hit of less than 3% health, leaving you with a mob above 8%, while the GGR user never has the lower-health mob above 6%.

The benefit of GGR is that without it, at least half the time the fight will end with the lower-health mob being 2-4% higher than it would otherwise be if you had an instant-cast invis.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So it sounds like that you have no objections to my conclusion then:

The benefit of GGR is that without it, at least half the time the fight will end with the lower-health mob being 2-4% higher than it would otherwise be if you had an instant-cast invis.

I do not agree with your conclusion.

You clearly didn't read my previous post.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793560&postcount=71

Read it again please.

Hint: The problem with your thinking is you are assuming that you only duck misses. You can duck a 1% HP hit too.

Here is a simple scenario:
1. You want the charmed pet to be at 6% HP or less before breaking charm.
2. The mob attacking your charmed pet reduces 8% HP on a max hit.

If your charmed pet is at 10% HP, there are four possibilities when you start casting RoST:
1. A miss occurs (duck RoST)
2. A hit between 4% and 8% HP occurs (finish casting RoST)
3. A hit between 1% and 3% HP occurs (duck RoST)
4. A lucky double attack kills the pet (this would happen for GGR users too)

[Zuranthium]

He is standing the entire time during the fight. He does not attempt to get med ticks when he could have. He doesn't even practice what he preaches.

Keep showing what a pathetic distorter you are. A 1 minute fight made for YT is not how someone plays all the time. If you watch the longer fight against Cliff Golem (which you have already), sitting frequently is indeed how the encounter was won.

It's even more insane to keep asking for "evidence" of how spending more time to cast in combat can be a detriment. Anyone who has played this game at a decent level understands that, at least at a basic level. Stop trying to argue things when you're dead wrong. Just admit you prefer to play in a less efficient way. "I like playing with 2 second activation invis more because I don't have to click an extra button to target swap while doing it." It's that simple.

You'd never be satisfied with "evidence" anyway, unless it's an exhausting amount of video footage where someone plays in a high-stress dungeon environment for days using only RoST, and then the same place for days using GRR; nobody wants to waste time on that. It's the equivalent of asking someone "why do you need to eat breakfast to have more energy at work, prove it to me."

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Keep showing what a pathetic distorter you are. A 1 minute fight made for YT is not how someone plays all the time.


Remember when you attacked my 2 minute Enchanter youtube video and completely lied about what my argument and playstyle is in this very thread?


your entire sad argument is built on a single example where you don't need instant break, trying to say "see, I didn't need it!", while ignoring the amount of time you're losing with your playstyle.


Thank you for admitting you were wrong to do this, by your own standard.

If you watch the longer fight against Cliff Golem (which you have already), sitting frequently is indeed how the encounter was won.


I did watch the video. You claimed that the Chardok video was "made for YT", which explains why you didn't sit every 6 seconds. However, recording the Cliff Golem video for youtube didn't stop you from doing this where possible. This "made for YT" excuse doesn't hold water. My guess is you generally do not sit every 6 seconds. You do it for a few specific fights where you need the extra mana, and that's it. Again, this is how normal people play. You don't need to be ashamed of being a normie.


It's even more insane to keep asking for "evidence" of how spending more time to cast in combat can be a detriment. Anyone who has played this game at a decent level understands that, at least at a basic level. Stop trying to argue things when you're dead wrong. Just admit you prefer to play in a less efficient way. "I like playing with 2 second activation invis more because I don't have to click an extra button to target swap while doing it." It's that simple.


I am not going to waste time on your delusions about what you think I said. People can read the thread, and see that you are just really bad at reading, or purposely distorting what I said.


You'd never be satisfied with "evidence" anyway, unless it's an exhausting amount of video footage where someone plays in a high-stress dungeon environment for days using only RoST, and then the same place for days using GRR; nobody wants to waste time on that. It's the equivalent of asking someone "why do you need to eat breakfast to have more energy at work, prove it to me."

I would be satisfied with evidence. You are lying by suggesting otherwise.

If someone claims that the President of Hungary is a space alien, it is not my fault that they made a claim that would be extremely hard to prove. Even if a lot of people agree with the claim that the President of Hungary is a space alien, that doesn't make it true.

"I am too lazy to provide evidence" is not a valid excuse when making a positive claim.

This is one reason why I am skeptical of the claim that "instant cast invis grants more kills per hour when charming". If people are so reluctant to test it, I question if it has ever actually been tested. Simply leveling with GGR is not a comparative test against RoST.

[OriginalContentGuy]

Hypothesis: touch grass
Evidence: this thread
CI:99.99±0.01%

[Zuranthium]

Remember when you attacked my 2 minute Enchanter youtube video and completely lied about what my argument and playstyle is in this very thread?

No lies happened. Only sad delusions in your head, along with constant failures to understand (or admit) basic concepts. You're the one arguing that people should use a 2 second activation item instead of an instant one. Your own admission of how you play.

[Snaggles]

A couple weeks late but basically while leveling up anything to raise the damage range is the move. Velium crossbows are the most readily available since a level 60 can farm half a bag in a few minutes (you can duel corpse them on the cursor for easy use). I use my Druid to farm them, if you don’t sit you can kill one at a time. Wait for the pathing guard to leave the area.

An argent defender also works (or protector if you plan to burn a Naggy or Vox tooth). It will still dual wield, the offhand just won’t hit as hard as the main hand.

I suppose for the high levels the best would be like a barbarian spiritualist hammer since it procs around 30. It’s an expensive toy though. Gnoll whips for tanking, deadwoods for dps if the tap will land, an argent defender to bump the mainhand dps on stuff a tap won’t land on. Adamantite bo staffs proc a rain spell that won’t hurt the pet. Serrated bone dirks for snaring stuff.

Mages are a bit different as recycling pets can be very efficient eventually and malachite is easy to stock up on. Those low levels with a beefy 2h are crazy tho. Get an Aego on the pet, a regen, and go crazy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No lies happened. Only sad delusions in your head, along with constant failures to understand (or admit) basic concepts. You're the one arguing that people should use a 2 second activation item instead of an instant one. Your own admission of how you play.

In my first reply to you in this thread, I said I am currently using GGR on my Enchanter:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793451&postcount=43

I use GGR on my Enchanter for charm breaks. I know how it works. I will be switching to RoST when I can use it.

You are not reading my posts, reading my posts poorly, or lying when you claim my current playstyle does not use GGR.

I will be switching to RoST when I can use it, as there is no evidence to suggest the instant cast invis from GGR will give me more kills per hour compared to RoST.

[Wayward]

lmao thinking necros kit is superior for charming

just lmao

Because it is. And your flippant attitude shows me

a) you don't play well as an enchanter.
b) you never played necro.

i can walk around charming on my necro, ripping through zones and remain at between 95% - 100% mana. because necros have the superior charm kit, you dimwitted carp

[Wayward]

Hypothesis: touch grass
Evidence: this thread
CI:99.99±0.01%

[Crede]

Because it is. And your flippant attitude shows me

a) you don't play well as an enchanter.
b) you never played necro.

i can walk around charming on my necro, ripping through zones and remain at between 95% - 100% mana. because necros have the superior charm kit, you dimwitted carp

Enc gonna have more options with not relying solely on undead. And c2 + ToT(if casters around) can keep pace with lich, maybe even better? I don’t feel like doing the math. Both phenomenal classes though and imo everyone should play both.

[Crede]

Pretending that someone's current raid attendance is the only way to guage raid experience is a silly argument. We all know this. You are just flailing because you know you are wrong.

classic dsm. When called out for the fact that he clearly has time to raid but chooses not to he turns it into a raid experience discussion. It’s ok, nobody cares you prefer to spend the time playing forumQuest and napkinQuest, just admit it.

If you’re actually this way irl I can’t even imagine what your work reviews are like. “You’re not working up to expectations” “please provide evidence and logs of such behavior” -dsm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

classic dsm. When called out for the fact that he clearly has time to raid but chooses not to he turns it into a raid experience discussion. It’s ok, nobody cares you prefer to spend the time playing forumQuest and napkinQuest, just admit it.

If you’re actually this way irl I can’t even imagine what your work reviews are like. “You’re not working up to expectations” “please provide evidence and logs of such behavior” -dsm

Everybody understands what you were trying to do. Lying now to save face is irrelevant. Trying to attack my character again is irrelevant.

I really hope you aren't silly enough to truly believe that taking a minute to post on a forum via your phone requires the same effort, location, setup, attention, etc., as raiding lol. I type fast. If I am going to raid, I do not simply show up and AFK. I put in more effort than that.

You are just embarassing yourself. It is OK to be wrong on a 20 year old elf sim forum. Admit defeat and move on. You are just providing more evidence you are a troll, and nobody should take you seriously.

Finally, your example is terrible. You do know that you can sue your employer for wrongful termination, right? Asking for evidence would be a smart thing to do, as it could be used in court if you needed to go down that road.

[kjs86z2]

Because it is. And your flippant attitude shows me

a) you don't play well as an enchanter.
b) you never played necro.

i can walk around charming on my necro, ripping through zones and remain at between 95% - 100% mana. because necros have the superior charm kit, you dimwitted carp

uh huh, ok

sorry your necro sucks compared to my enchanter

laughs in dictate, rapture, slow, and aoe stuns

buT mUh n3cRo dOeS gud xP in HS

[Crede]

I really hope you aren't silly enough to truly believe that taking a minute to post on a forum via your phone requires the same effort, location, setup, attention, etc., as raiding lol. I type fast. If I am going to raid, I do not simply show up and AFK. I put in more effort than that.

The only one silly here is you claiming you spend a minute to post. It’s much, much longer than that. Including your habit of constantly editing your posts. It’s obvious you obsess over every little detail you type, so stop lying to yourself. Even non afk raids take a fraction of the time you’ve spent on here, you’re not fooling anybody.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only one silly here is you claiming you spend a minute to post. It’s much, much longer than that. Including your habit of constantly editing your posts. It’s obvious you obsess over every little detail you type, so stop lying to yourself. Even non afk raids take a fraction of the time you’ve spent on here, you’re not fooling anybody.

Sorry you are bad at understanding how typing works.

As you can see, Crede has lost the argument so thoroughly, he is grasping at any straw he can.

Are you ever going to provide evidence for your claim GGR is better than RoST, or will you just keep showing people you are bad at Everquest and forumquest?

[Crede]

Sorry you are bad at understanding how typing works.

As you can see, Crede has lost the argument so thoroughly, he is grasping at any straw he can.

Are you ever going to provide evidence for your claim GGR is better than RoST, or will you just keep showing people you are bad at Everquest and forumquest?

Under what authority do I need to provide evidence? It sounds like you just need private coaching here as you seem to be lacking some skills as others have pointed out. PM me and we can discuss pricing

[kjs86z2]

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Under what authority do I need to provide evidence? It sounds like you just need private coaching here as you seem to be lacking some skills as others have pointed out. PM me and we can discuss pricing

Look up the latin phrase "Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat". This is basic stuff humans have known for hundreds of years.

When you say "I know the President of Hungary is a space alien!", that is a positive claim.

You have the burden of proof when making a positive claim.

You shift the burden of proof when you tell people that they need to prove the President of Hungary is not a space alien.

You are welcome for the basic lesson everybody already knows. And it was free!

[Crede]

Look up the latin phrase "Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat". This is basic stuff humans have known for hundreds of years.

When you say "I know the President of Hungary is a space alien!", that is a positive claim.

You have the burden of proof when making a positive claim.

You shift the burden of proof when you tell people that they need to prove the President of Hungary is not a space alien.

You are welcome for the basic lesson everybody already knows. And it was free!

We still haven’t seen evidence of you root rotting with a shaman in a fast killing group scenario as was requested of you thousands of times where you claimed you could output similar dps to a mage. So it seems you also make claims and do not provide actual evidence.

Since you are apparently still bothered by this claim, I can only assume you need coaching, and I was kind enough to offer you this chance. Perhaps you should spend some time considering it, as it’s been clear you are lacking skill from some of your videos.

[Crede]

uh huh, ok

sorry your necro sucks compared to my enchanter

laughs in dictate, rapture, slow, and aoe stuns

buT mUh n3cRo dOeS gud xP in HS

lol yea I had a blast charming undead on my necro but enc is a different beast.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We still haven’t seen evidence of you root rotting with a shaman in a fast killing group scenario as was requested of you thousands of times where you claimed you could output similar dps to a mage. So it seems you also make claims and do not provide actual evidence.

Since you are apparently still bothered by this claim, I can only assume you need coaching, and I was kind enough to offer you this chance. Perhaps you should spend some time considering it, as it’s been clear you are lacking skill from some of your videos.

I provided the evidence years ago https://youtu.be/1gdAIheodtY?is=jhFEYRNkVKvAjI9E

A shaman can be doing frenzy while the group does the trash at the bottom, as a simple example.

It is not my fault you are so bad at the game that you cannot imagine someone killing stuff a short distance away from the group. Everyone would still get XP.

What you are doing here is deflecting (changing the subject away from GGR), and classic moving of the goalposts. Any evidence I provide is never good enough, as you will find some excuse to dismiss it.

At the end of the day, I have provided mountains of evidence for my claims over the years. People can just look at my signature for my youtube channel, DPS Calculator, and Shaman Race Guide. You have nothing by comparison.

Perhaps you are just too embarassed to film your own playstyle.

[Defo]

Enc gonna have more options with not relying solely on undead. And c2 + ToT(if casters around) can keep pace with lich, maybe even better? I don’t feel like doing the math. Both phenomenal classes though and imo everyone should play both.

I recently played my friend's Necro for a night, and after having played 60 Enchanter on p99 for years, I was blown away by how smoothly charming on a Necro goes.

Necro has a few tools that Enchanter doesn't that help with charming. The two biggest ones I've seen were the ability to Feign Death while your pet is charmed to reset it.

On my Enchanter: I will break charm, stun the mob, mez it, pacify it, and then repeatedly cast mem blur to blur it, for a total of 4 spells cast minimum, with maybe 2 mezzes and 2-3 mem blur casts. Once I see the 5% uptick in HP, I know it's reset. It costs about 200-250 mana minimum. (Or I will just Pacify my pet and /camp if there is no competition around).

On a Necro, I was able to just Pacify my pet and then Feign Death. Two spells cast, for less than 150 mana.

Another really neat thing about a Necro with epic is that you don't need mana to finish your pet when it's time to kill it. Once charm is broken, you just click your epic and the pet dies in a few ticks. If impatient there are some great undead nukes that are mana efficient to finish off Mobs, and of course Deflux.

Enchanter is still best at charming, obviously, but after having also played Druid, there are some tools that Druid have for charms that Enchanter could greatly benefit from. On an unintentional charm break for druid, it's really simple to use a short duration root, or use Panic Animal for 10 mana (while its Ensnared) to recast charm. Additionally, the damage shield clickie from the Tunare gloves works wonders. And of course clickies like Elder Spiritist Greaves for self-heals or pet heals without mana.

The more I played this game, the more I realized that power comes from not having to use mana in regular play, so that you can save it for "Oh Shit" scenarios. In that regard: both Necro and Druid have much better clickies available than an Enchanter does, but its balanced by the fact that Enchanter has many spells, including PBAE Stun, Slow, Mez, Boon of the Garou, etc.

[Zuranthium]

I provided the evidence years ago https://youtu.be/1gdAIheodtY?is=jhFEYRNkVKvAjI9E

That isn't evidence of better DPS (you did approximately 55), nor is that classic EQ. Your roots will be breaking more frequently in the real game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That isn't evidence of better DPS (you did approximately 55), nor is that classic EQ. Your roots will be breaking more frequently in the real game.

Lying about my position again. More proof of your trolling and/or reading comprehension issues. Also, we are talking about P99, not your memory of EQ. This video (https://youtu.be/1gdAIheodtY?is=jhFEYRNkVKvAjI9E) is real P99 lol.

You can check the post history. Even Crede read my posts correctly when he said "similar". It is a lie when people claim I said Shamans can consistently do better DPS than a non-epic mage. Here is a short explaination if you want the context: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3709039&postcount=5729

This video (https://youtu.be/1gdAIheodtY?is=jhFEYRNkVKvAjI9E) was an example of doing frenzy while a group below kills trash. I never claimed that was my best gameplay. I was barely trying, and you say I did at least 55 DPS. Shaman pet would add another 15 DPS or so if I had bothered to use it.

And you don't need to take my word for it. Even Troxx, one of my biggest detractors, was doing 80 DPS with his Shaman:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708963&postcount=5723

The best focused water pet does around ~65 DPS from the data I've seen. If you are spamming https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling that is another 35 DPS. So a "normal" non-epic mage is doing around 100 DPS. Damage shield damage is highly variable, depending on whos tanking, how fast the mob dies, if the mob is slowed or not, etc.

Most high level groups are not going to care about +30 DPS when compared to the utility a Shaman can provide.

[bcbrown]

Enchanter is still best at charming, obviously, but after having also played Druid, there are some tools that Druid have for charms that Enchanter could greatly benefit from. On an unintentional charm break for druid, it's really simple to use a short duration root, or use Panic Animal for 10 mana (while its Ensnared) to recast charm. Additionally, the damage shield clickie from the Tunare gloves works wonders. And of course clickies like Elder Spiritist Greaves for self-heals or pet heals without mana.

The more I played this game, the more I realized that power comes from not having to use mana in regular play, so that you can save it for "Oh Shit" scenarios. In that regard: both Necro and Druid have much better clickies available than an Enchanter does, but its balanced by the fact that Enchanter has many spells, including PBAE Stun, Slow, Mez, Boon of the Garou, etc.

I think it's really fun how there's four different charm classes and they all have such unique approaches. Bards can go non-stop indefinitely in the right zone but their charm only lasts 3-4 ticks. Druids can do some cool things with snare-parking to move mobs around, plus roots, heals, I think the best pet haste in the game at 70%, and as you mentioned so many awesome clickies. For necro I'm really enjoying FD for letting you easily recover a bad situation, which really helps out with the learning curve, and with Rest the Dead it makes resetting a pet into a breeze.

I've tried enchanter but never really got into it, and never got past level 20. It seems like the most powerful, with the fewest restrictions on what you can charm and wear, but also like a bit of a glass cannon who's gonna eat the most deaths of the four charm classes.

[Defo]

I think it's really fun how there's four different charm classes and they all have such unique approaches. Bards can go non-stop indefinitely in the right zone but their charm only lasts 3-4 ticks. Druids can do some cool things with snare-parking to move mobs around, plus roots, heals, I think the best pet haste in the game at 70%, and as you mentioned so many awesome clickies. For necro I'm really enjoying FD for letting you easily recover a bad situation, which really helps out with the learning curve, and with Rest the Dead it makes resetting a pet into a breeze.

I've tried enchanter but never really got into it, and never got past level 20. It seems like the most powerful, with the fewest restrictions on what you can charm and wear, but also like a bit of a glass cannon who's gonna eat the most deaths of the four charm classes.

Oh definitely. I have only ever died while charming on my Druid when I was playing recklessly. Meanwhile, I expect to die and have to do naked corpse runs on my Enchanter. It's one of the reasons its so hard for me to level a new enchanter. At 60, you've finally gotten all the spells that help with survivability, and you finally have enough HP and Mana to not immediately go SPLAT when shit hits the fan. But the levelling process, especially pre level 34 or so is chock full of what feels like very inefficient charm soloing and corpse runs :p

[Zuranthium]

Lying about my position again.

Nope, that's just your own constant lack of comprehension and distortion. 55 DPS is not the same as doing 110 DPS. The semantic of "same" or "more" is irrelevant since you failed to show the ability to do the same amount of DPS, but of course you try to latch onto a strawman.

Also, we are talking about P99

p99 is supposed to be as accurate of a recreation of classic EQ as possible, and has those changes coming.

Damage shield damage is highly variable

Not over time, you can't just discount it.

Shaman pet would add another 15 DPS or so if I had bothered to use it.

You won't be able to use Shaman pet there, it's going to be too far away to take commands.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope, that's just your own constant lack of comprehension and distortion. 55 DPS is not the same as doing 110 DPS. The semantic of "same" or "more" is irrelevant since you failed to show the ability to do the same amount of DPS, but of course you try to latch onto a strawman.



p99 is supposed to be as accurate of a recreation of classic EQ as possible, and has those changes coming.



Not over time, you can't just discount it.



You won't be able to use Shaman pet there, it's going to be too far away to take commands.

You didin't read my previous post. You just look like a clown.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793676&postcount=96

The simple fact that you didn't even read Troxx doing 80 DPS with his Shaman, and he literally has "The sands of DSM's Vagina" as his location shows you cannot have a debate in good faith. Everybody already knows this though.

I can keep farming evidence of your trolling and lack of reading if you want, but you are just making yourself look foolish. It is shocking that you think you have the upper hand here.

If you had read the post I linked (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793676&postcount=96):


Mages without Epic are doing more like 65 DPS via Water Pet, 16 DPS via Damage Shield, and 25 DPS from something like Burnt Wood Staff. So something like 106 DPS, or 116 DPS with Boots of Bladecalling if memory serves. If the mob is 75% slowed, you'd lose 12 DPS from the Damage shield, so 94 DPS to 102 DPS.


I have already taken damage shield into account. That is why I said +30 DPS instead of +20 DPS. ~110 Mage DPS - ~80 Shaman DPS = 30 DPS. I said damage shield damage is variable because it's true. I don't want to claim a mage is always getting full damage shield DPS, because that isn't true.

If you want to claim high level groups desparately need 30 DPS, you'll need to provide some example camps and group compositions.

[bcbrown]

Hint: The problem with your thinking is you are assuming that you only duck misses. You can duck a 1% HP hit too.

Here is a simple scenario:
1. You want the charmed pet to be at 6% HP or less before breaking charm.
2. The mob attacking your charmed pet reduces 8% HP on a max hit.

If your charmed pet is at 10% HP, there are four possibilities when you start casting RoST:
1. A miss occurs (duck RoST)
2. A hit between 4% and 8% HP occurs (finish casting RoST)
3. A hit between 1% and 3% HP occurs (duck RoST)
4. A lucky double attack kills the pet (this would happen for GGR users too)

This strategy is worse. You'll lose the mob sometimes if you wait until 10% to cast RoST. For example:
1. Mob is at 15%
2. Mob takes a max hit, goes to 7%
3. You click RoST
4. Mob takes a max hit, dies

You'll lose the mob about 15% of the time with this approach, while the GGR user doesn't lose a single mob.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This strategy is worse. You'll lose the mob sometimes if you wait until 10% to cast RoST. For example:
1. Mob is at 15%
2. Mob takes a max hit, goes to 7%
3. You click RoST
4. Mob takes a max hit, dies

You'll lose the mob about 15% of the time with this approach, while the GGR user doesn't lose a single mob.

You are still missing the basic concept. This is why I've repeatedly asked you to read my posts.

I explained when to start casting RoST in the post you clearly ignored:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793560&postcount=71

If you know the mob's max hit reduces your charmed pet's HP by 8%, you would start casting RoST at 17% or higher. This is because an unlucky double attack of two max hits would reduce your charmed pet's HP by 16%

A GGR user would also start to watch for a break opportunity at 17% or higher for the same reason.

So lets go over the scenario:

1. You want the charmed pet to be at 6% HP or less before breaking charm.
2. The mob attacking your charmed pet reduces 8% HP on a max hit.

If your charmed pet is at 18% HP, there are three possibilities when you start casting RoST:
1. A miss occurs (duck RoST)
2. A hit between 1% and 8% HP occurs (duck RoST)
3. A lucky double attack does 12%-16% HP (finish casting RoST)

At this point you have started the RoST casting process. So let's do another round:

1. You want the charmed pet to be at 6% HP or less before breaking charm.
2. The mob attacking your charmed pet reduces 8% HP on a max hit.
3. You first started casting RoST when the charmed pet was at 18%. It took a max hit of 8%, and you ducked.

If your charmed pet is at 10% HP, there are four possibilities when you start casting RoST:
1. A miss occurs (duck RoST)
2. A hit between 4% and 8% HP occurs (finish casting RoST)
3. A hit between 1% and 3% HP occurs (duck RoST or let it finish)
4. A lucky double attack kills the pet (this would happen for GGR users too)

What you don't realize is the GGR user is in the same position as the RoST user if possibility 3 occurs.

For the GGR user, the mob is at 7%. They have to make a decision between combat rounds to break early, or risk the next combat round being a max hit. The RoST user is still casting invis when they see the charmed pet's HP at 7%, so they have the same opportunity to make the same decision as the GGR user. They can finish the cast and break early, or risk the next combat round being a max hit.

[bcbrown]

Let me be sure I understand your strategy. Is this right?

1. As soon as the lower-health mob gets to 18%, start casting RoST
2. If the next combat round results in the mob being at 10% or higher, duck and recast.

Is that right? Or are you choosing some threshold other than 10%?

With a max hit of 8% my strategy with GGR would be to click as soon as the mob gets to 9%

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me be sure I understand your strategy. Is this right?

1. As soon as the lower-health mob gets to 18%, start casting RoST
2. If the next combat round results in the mob being at 10% or higher, duck and recast.

Is that right? Or are you choosing some threshold other than 10%?

With a max hit of 8% my strategy with GGR would be to click as soon as the mob gets to 9%

The answer to your question is in my last post. Can you please read even one of my posts completely before asking a question the previous post already answers?

You are either purposely wasting my time via trolling, or you are just not reading.

[Mortdecai99]

why dont you just root it, back your pet, and memblur it?

[Crede]

The answer to your question is in my last post. Can you please read even one of my posts completely before asking a question the previous post already answers?

You are either purposely wasting my time via trolling, or you are just not reading.

Classic dsm. When put in a corner he will just accuse the other person of trolling and make them look like the bad ones even with the people who actually care to waste the time on his napkin math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

why dont you just root it, back your pet, and memblur it?

That is a strategy both GGR and RoST users have access to. That strategy does require extra mana and extra time to let the mob regenerate.

Someone who is trying to maximize kills per hour may not want to spend said time and mana. The entire discussion ultimately revolves around the idea that you break charm at a point where you can kill both mobs with a cheaper nuke, thus saving mana.

Spending mana on root and memblur would eat into those mana savings. Not saying the strategy should never be employed, as losing a mob would cost more time and mana in the long run.

[Crede]

That is a strategy both GGR and RoST users have access to. That strategy does require extra mana and extra time to let the mob regenerate.

Someone who is trying to maximize kills per hour may not want to spend said time and mana. The entire discussion ultimately revolves around the idea that you break charm at a point where you can kill both mobs with a cheaper nuke, thus saving mana.

Spending mana on root and memblur would eat into those mana savings. Not saying the strategy should never be employed, as losing a mob would cost more time and mana in the long run.

Having ggr will let you break at 1 to 2% if you actually have skills and can react and use choke to finish a mob which is very efficient and low mana.

[bcbrown]

Ok, so I think the optimal strategy for RoST here would be to start casting at 18%, and duck until the the mob gets to 9%. The optimal strategy for GGR is to simply cast at 9%.

In that case, neither will lose any mobs, and both will result in an average mob health of about 6.5%. The RoST will average about 2.5 ducks per fight, and you'll need at least 5 ducks about 15% of the time, 10 ducks more than 1% of the time.

The benefit here is that the GGR can simply med until 9% and then stand and cast. Very simple, very easy. The RoST user on the other hand has to navigate a tricky timing dance - the cast time is 2 seconds, and a combat round is 3 seconds. If the mobs are evenly matched you need to monitor both mobs' health every combat round to see if either dropped to 9% or below.

The benefit of the GGR is you don't have to deal with all that ducking and monitoring for a bunch of combat rounds. You just wait until the mob hits your threshold and then click it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In that case, neither will lose any mobs, and both will result in an average mob health of about 6.5%.

You finally read some of my post! Thank you for admitting that you were wrong here.

GGR has no advantage here.


Ok, so I think the optimal strategy for RoST here would be to start casting at 18%, and duck until the the mob gets to 9%. The optimal strategy for GGR is to simply cast at 9%.
...
The benefit here is that the GGR can simply med until 9% and then stand and cast.
...
monitoring for a bunch of combat rounds. You just wait until the mob hits your threshold and then click it.


This is another flaw in your thought process. Your charmed pet could go from 18% HP to 3% HP in one combat round if a double attack occurs, and a max hit reduces your charmed pet's HP by 8%.

Both GGR and RoST users need to start watching for break opportunities at the same health percentage range.

There is no method by which a GGR user can guarantee the mob will be at 9% HP every time. The only reason why you can use 17% or 18% HP as a rough threshold is because a max damage double attack would reduce 16% of the charmed pet's HP in our example.

GGR has no advantage here.


The RoST user on the other hand has to navigate a tricky timing dance - the cast time is 2 seconds, and a combat round is 3 seconds.


Either you duck a few spell casts with RoST, or you are forced to retarget with GGR. Neither are tricky. This is a preference choice. If you want to claim ducking a few times per kill will objectively get you less kills per hour than retargeting, provide the evidence for your positive claim please.

GGR has no advantage here.


can simply med


Can a GGR user get a few med ticks in theory? Sure, I have already granted that in this thread. In reality most players do not closely monitor server ticks, and are often wasting meditate ticks for a variety of reasons.

GGR has a theoretical minor advantage here for extremely hardcore players, the kind who sit every 6 seconds while running.

At the end, we have one theoretical advantage with GGR of a few med ticks. You compare that to the RoST advantages:

1. You can pretarget while RoST is casting.
2. It acts as your invis item, so you don't need to mem invis.
3. You don't need multiple inventory slots used for GGR + invis item(s).

Like most players, I am not frenetically watching the server tick to get every possible med tick. I'd take the objective advantages RoST offers over a few theoretical med ticks GGR could provide.

[Zuranthium]

Let me be sure I understand your strategy.

His "strategy" is even worse than he's tried to make it sound: needing to cancel cast an activation to time it properly, instead of just using an instant activation = an even higher rate of losing med ticks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

His "strategy" is even worse than he's tried to make it sound: needing to cancel cast an activation to time it properly, instead of just using an instant activation = an even higher rate of losing med ticks.

I am sorry ducking a few spells is difficult for you.

https://youtu.be/eH_b-waHS5M?is=DsgOQ-J5D_APqejQ

We know that even Zuranthium doesn't sit every 6 seconds when he could have. And no, filming a youtube video is not a valid excuse, as your Cliff Golem video does show you sitting more often.

The reality is most players are not consistently strict with themselves about getting every server med tick. It is going to be difficult to prove that GGR is giving you a distict advantage in this regard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think great progress has been made in this thread. Bcbrown now agrees that this claim is false:

But when talking about xp per hour instant invis is gonna give you more reliable breaks without risk of wasting extra mana to kill your old pet or trying to time the casting delay and lose your pet.

Bcbrown agrees that both GGR and RoST can consistently charm break at the desired HP range for a cheaper nuke:


In that case, neither will lose any mobs, and both will result in an average mob health of about 6.5%.

I still don't understand why he is confused about when to break though:


The optimal strategy for GGR is to simply cast at 9%.


Here is the scenario for breaking at 9%:
1. You want the charmed pet to be at 6% HP or less before breaking charm.
2. The mob attacking your charmed pet reduces 8% HP on a max hit.

Here are the combat rounds for the RoST user and GGR user who wants to meditate as much as possible:

1. Combat round 1 (mob has 15% HP) - 0 seconds
2. Player is meditating
3. Combat round 2 (mob has 12% HP) - 2 seconds
4. Player is meditating
5. Combat round 3 (mob has 9% HP) - 4 seconds
6. Player stands and starts casting RoST - 5 seconds
7. Combat round 4 (mob has ?% HP) - 6 seconds
7a. If miss occured, duck RoST cast - 7 seconds
7b. If mob has 7% or 8% HP, duck RoST cast - 7 seconds
7c. If mob has 6% HP or less, finish RoST cast or cast GGR - 7 seconds
7d. If mob was double attacked, it is dead for both RoST user and GGR user.

It is not required for a RoST user to start RoST casts at a higher HP percentage than GGR users. Both GGR and RoST users should start getting ready for charm break when the mob's HP is around max damage * 2, so you avoid the small chance of a double attack with two max hits killing the mob.

[Zuranthium]

I am sorry ducking a few spells is difficult for you.

It's not difficult at all. There's simply no benefit here, just detriment. You fail to comprehend the mechanic being explained, after years and years of people trying to help you not be a scrub.

Casting a spell INHERENTLY means you are sitting less. That means less chance of med ticks. It has nothing to do with timing a med tick here (which should still be done when possible if you want to play optimally). It's the simple fact of needing to be standing during combat, when you otherwise wouldn't have to. It results in having less mana. Seek a remedial math course if you still can't understand.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's not difficult at all.


Correct. It is not difficult to duck a cast or two of RoST.


Casting a spell INHERENTLY means you are sitting less. That means less chance of med ticks. It has nothing to do with timing a med tick here (which should still be done when possible if you want to play optimally). It's the simple fact of needing to be standing during combat, when you otherwise wouldn't have to. It results in having less mana. Seek a remedial math course if you still can't understand.

https://youtu.be/eH_b-waHS5M?is=DsgOQ-J5D_APqejQ

Here is Zuranthium, standing the entire time during a fight, like a normal player. He mised multiple med ticks by not sitting when he could have.

[Snaggles]

I think it's really fun how there's four different charm classes and they all have such unique approaches. Bards can go non-stop indefinitely in the right zone but their charm only lasts 3-4 ticks. Druids can do some cool things with snare-parking to move mobs around, plus roots, heals, I think the best pet haste in the game at 70%, and as you mentioned so many awesome clickies. For necro I'm really enjoying FD for letting you easily recover a bad situation, which really helps out with the learning curve, and with Rest the Dead it makes resetting a pet into a breeze.

I've tried enchanter but never really got into it, and never got past level 20. It seems like the most powerful, with the fewest restrictions on what you can charm and wear, but also like a bit of a glass cannon who's gonna eat the most deaths of the four charm classes.

My favorite part of p99 is being able to spend time with classes I didn’t care for on Live and really dig into the nuance. I have some I don’t prefer but none I don’t respect. My nerves can’t handle an enchanter nor can my tolerance for just leaving a corpse to rez later.

I also find it strange how people have such a superiority complex over what they play. Most of us are getting older…who cares what people think anymore? Have fun with your class and if you can’t solve a puzzle, swap to another one and keep on going.

[Duik]

Since starting a necro I've become curious about the details and nuances of giving a pet a weapon.

Delay isn't affected at all, right? Whether I give a rusty dagger or a weighted axe, it won't change the pet's delay. Is that correct?

So this was the initial question.
How does it decend into the complete cock waffling session we have now?

[kjs86z2]

still trying to say GGR isnt miles better

lol

[Crede]

So this was the initial question.
How does it decend into the complete cock waffling session we have now?

Pretty much this post with dsm shitting up another thread:

You don't need an instant clicky for full XP breaks at a lower mana cost. As of yet, nobody has proven this actual helps, beyond the placebo effect. It isn't difficult to get a feel for combat and use a non-instant clicky. I have no trouble with non instant clickies.

Pre-nerf CoF's are great, and I suggest SK/Necros get them. But you don't need to wait for that. Post-nerf CoS works fine while you are saving up for pre-nerf.

Talks about “placebo effect” nonsense of an instant clicky yet has already admitted to using one on his enchanter. By his logic, you could just “time” everything and you might as well find a 30 second casting time clicky since it’s easy to predict how fights will go.

[Snaggles]

if you are fancy this is the weapon for a necro to run amok in Lower Guk or HS. It’s just something you don’t want to lose (might as well duo with a healer). The 2h staff of undead legions doesn’t proc until 46 which narrows your pet selection but definitely cuts down the price.

https://wiki.project1999.com/DawnFire,_Morning_Star_of_Light

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So this was the initial question.
How does it decend into the complete cock waffling session we have now?

Crede and Bcbrown started off-topic discussing GGR/instant cast invis for charm breaks:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3792264&postcount=16

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3792279&postcount=17

And then Crede starts spamming the thread with personal attacks since he couldn't back up his claims, and is still salty about losing an argiment in a different thread years ago lol:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793416&postcount=29

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793535&postcount=57

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793536&postcount=58

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793537&postcount=59

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793646&postcount=83

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793721&postcount=106

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793814&postcount=119

Some of the other usual suspects like Zuranthium and kjs86z2 joined in. Bcbrown aslo likes to troll me, as he admitted in the past.

Every thread that ends up like this starts in the same way. I don't start these things, as the post history shows.

Crede lost the GGR argument as well. He could have just admitted to being wrong, or supplied some evidence. But spamming insults is his more common tactic unfortunately.

[Crede]

if you are fancy this is the weapon for a necro to run amok in Lower Guk or HS. It’s just something you don’t want to lose (might as well duo with a healer). The 2h staff of undead legions doesn’t proc until 46 which narrows your pet selection but definitely cuts down the price.

https://wiki.project1999.com/DawnFire,_Morning_Star_of_Light

Alternatively if you go full battle cleric this could be fun until around lvl 55 or so.

[Snaggles]

Alternatively if you go full battle cleric this could be fun until around lvl 55 or so.

Yea I picked mine up after it wasn’t really feasible as a xp method. Feerott specs to 50/51, a bit of HK to 54, then off to The Hole. Finished the 55-60 with an ench in Velks at record speed.

I suppose it’s still a good weapon for mucking around with green cons like in Guk. As a pet weapon it seems too risky over a Staff of Undead Legions (which seems has very little use outside meme necro grinding).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Battle Cleric is fun. I have a level 24 Human Innoruuk Cleric with:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Regent_Symbol_of_Innoruuk

And

https://wiki.project1999.com/Terror_Forged_Mask

To do some fear kiting on non-undead mobs. I don't have Jboots on this char, so the fear kiting is a bit rough above 50% hp, but it's an interesting change of pace.

I also have https://wiki.project1999.com/Fright_Forged_Helm - for GCD, junk buff, see invis, and infravison all in one item.

Currently using Poison Wind Censer and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps for my main damage source.

[Snaggles]

A charm player could also keep a few cloudy potions or invis rings. It’s not a CoS but for certain situations the plat would be well spent even over the annoyance of targeting back after a GGR click.

[Snaggles]

Battle Cleric is fun. I have a level 24 Human Innoruuk Cleric with:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Regent_Symbol_of_Innoruuk

And

https://wiki.project1999.com/Terror_Forged_Mask

To do some fear kiting on non-undead mobs. I don't have Jboots on this char, so the fear kiting is a bit rough above 50% hp, but it's an interesting change of pace.

I also have https://wiki.project1999.com/Fright_Forged_Helm - for GCD and night vision.

Currently using Poison Wind Censor and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps for my main damage source.

I can’t stand even fear kiting with engulfing these days :D . My cleric is a inny human as well. The mask is pretty great to have but I’ve yet to use. Having Fear innately memmed is worth the marginal stats. The deadeye click is very good for general use, GCD or junk buff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A charm player could also keep a few cloudy potions or invis rings. It’s not a CoS but for certain situations the plat would be well spent even over the annoyance of targeting back after a GGR click.

Necros without a pre-nerf CoS should indeed keep a few invis rings handy, so they can instantly invis after standing up from FD in a sticky situation.

I can’t stand even fear kiting with engulfing these days :D . My cleric is a inny human as well. The mask is pretty great to have but I’ve yet to use. Having Fear innately memmed is worth the marginal stats. The deadeye click is very good for general use, GCD or junk buff.

Yeah the snare on engulfing is pretty bad lol. I do want to get jboots to make the process a bit better, but not sure I want to spend the 5k on an alt I don't play often.

[kjs86z2]

Crede and Bcbrown started off-topic discussing GGR/instant cast invis for charm breaks:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3792264&postcount=16

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3792279&postcount=17

And then Crede starts spamming the thread with personal attacks since he couldn't back up his claims, and is still salty about losing an argiment in a different thread years ago lol:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793416&postcount=29

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793535&postcount=57

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793536&postcount=58

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793537&postcount=59

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793646&postcount=83

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793721&postcount=106

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3793814&postcount=119

Some of the other usual suspects like Zuranthium and kjs86z2 joined in. Bcbrown aslo likes to troll me, as he admitted in the past.

Every thread that ends up like this starts in the same way. I don't start these things, as the post history shows.

Crede lost the GGR argument as well. He could have just admitted to being wrong, or supplied some evidence. But spamming insults is his more common tactic unfortunately.





lol