Cazic Thule 2.0 lost his pbaoe knockback dispel

[beaon]

After years of this being in my head from 20+ year old memories I finally found evidence to prove it.

CT 2.0 should have his pbaoe knockback+dispel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig7k_-2B8l8

The video shows how it should behave. An 8 minute fight of CT where the whole raid gets knocked back with your top slot getting dispelled.

I'm pretty sure it worked on CT 1.0, classic, but that function was removed. Avatar Power is it? It Should be re-added.

[CrazyPro]

Looks like the Avatar Power AE should be going off every 35-60 seconds, and levitate shouldn't mitigate the fling, I think people had that just to avoid the fall damage, but the video definitely shows levitating players being flung a lot farther than Avatar Power flings you while levitating on p99.

CT 2.0 definitely has this AE on p99 right now but it seems to just not affect pets at all, and all of the guilds on p99 right now kill CT by just swarming him with charm pets because this AE just doesn't seem to take affect on them at all, they're definitely not getting dispelled. Same with the Klandicar dispel, doesn't seem to affect pets, kinda weird.

I also feel like the range of the AE on p99 is smaller than it should be, people just aren't getting flung, and when they do, their levitate pretty much completely mitigates it to a very small upward fling that doesn't actually knock them away from CT at all.

Anecdotally, I think CT and Innoruuk are supposed to dual wield but currently don't, and Innoruuk is supposed to have the Avatar Power AE as well, but I don't think he does, or maybe his Avatar Power is suffering from the same issues as CT's?

Also looks like CT's fear proc should be a lot easier to resist, going off of that video? Tanks are pretty much perpetually feared on p99. This is probably just part of a much bigger server issue of player resists being a lot weaker than they were in classic, though.

[CrazyPro]

u1tFhREuvLg

Some clips I recorded today of CT's fling doing next to nothing when you have levitate, contrary to what the classic video linked above shows. It also doesn't affect the pets at all. (Klandicar's dispel has the same issue)

[beaon]

It must be the case then that levitate somehow breaks the gflux effect. Also why aren't the pets dispelled? Using the video posted above even levitated people get tossed.

It's weird to me that in green classic this whole mechanic felt notably different. Like you'd get tossed as expected.

[CrazyPro]

It must be the case then that levitate somehow breaks the gflux effect. Also why aren't the pets dispelled? Using the video posted above even levitated people get tossed.

It's weird to me that in green classic this whole mechanic felt notably different. Like you'd get tossed as expected.

The knockback is still there, it's just that the levitate unclassically mitigates it to near nothing. This is especially noticeable on Tunare, tanks with levi literally never get flung across the zone for the entire duration of their defensive.

Pets seem to be completely unaffected by any AE that has a dispel component, which is why everyone just cheeses CT with mass pets because, even without the knockback, due to resists being a lot weaker here than they were in classic, anyone who goes into melee range of him are pretty much perpetually feared which makes him a complete nightmare to tank since tanks will walk out of CH range, so people just /assisy remedy spam pets and the occasional tank with a bark pot.

You should NOT be able to keep a pet charmed against mobs with dispel AEs, but these fights are made easier since you can.

[CrazyPro]

Yeah looking at the video from classic the very first fling AE that happens at 0:23 flings the pets

ig7k_-2B8l8

[beaon]

At minimum something is up with chrmed pets. They should be getting dispelled.

[getsome]

while watching the video, the person had dmf in the first slot and got it dispelled and was punted by the avatar power ae. do you see a punt while he had levitate up? during the first ae at :23 seconds he did not get dispelled and was out of range of the ae. during the ae at 1:01 the pets remain, again cleric was outside the 75 range. hard to be conclusive since his dmf was first slot, but most players do seem to get punted back who are in range and floating in the vid. in all the angles, the shaman pets never get punted and are up in the fight when he runs back.

[nilbog]

Tested this some.


-Charm was being dispelled from pets. Spawned the froglok king, gave him 2 million hp, cast allure. Did test. Allure was dispelled. Tried dictate, same result.
-Knockback doesn't seem to move pets. If it does, its <= 20 units, barely noticable
-If levitated, players barely move from the knockback effect.


The cancel magic effect does seem to walk down the buff list dispelling in order. Is there something players are doing to displace the charm buff, or another method to make the dispell not work on them?

Should knockback move pets?

How much should levitate mitigate the knockback effect?

[Baugi]

The cancel magic effect does seem to walk down the buff list dispelling in order. Is there something players are doing to displace the charm buff, or another method to make the dispell not work on them?

Typically charm -> buff -> break -> fill top slot with debuff -> re-charm -> refresh top slot with bracer of the hidden or equivalent

It doesn't violate any classic mechanics as far as I know, but also wasn't done at all during classic.

[Mortdecai99]

On P99, I never junk buff my pet for this fight, as my pet never gets dispelled during it.

[CrazyPro]

Should knockback move pets?

How much should levitate mitigate the knockback effect?

Looking at the in-era video evidence again, pets definitely get flung back by the knockback and the levitated players in the video still seemed to be getting flung very far most of the time. One of the flings in the video has a couple of shaman pets not getting flung but that's probably because the range of his AE fling is 60 and in the video the pets seemed to be able to melee him from much farther away.

I'd also like to note that it's not just the CT fling that levitate extremely mitigates, it's like this for every other fling in the game. Gravity flux does barely anything when you have levitate up, which doesn't appear to be classic behavior based on how levitate doesn't mitigate flings in the video. The Tunare knockback for example does next to nothing while the tank is levitating so we never use ogre walls on Tunare ever, we just have their buff order set up so that the root can be dispelled when the tank calls for it.

It's definitely not just CT/Inny's specific fling ability that levitate is mitigating.

[CrazyPro]

On P99, I never junk buff my pet for this fight, as my pet never gets dispelled during it.

This lines up with my experience using druid charm pets on CT and Klandicar.

[nilbog]

Personal tests seem ok for charm being removed from charmed pets from Cazic Thule's AE, but with multiple reports here there must be something else going on.

From what I see in spell data, Klandicar's Silver Breath only removes beneficial buffs, so it's not going to remove a detrimental charm 'buff'. Was Silver Breath different in classic?

[Mortdecai99]

Personal tests seem ok for charm being removed from charmed pets from Cazic Thule's AE, but with multiple reports here there must be something else going on.

From what I see in spell data, Klandicar's Silver Breath only removes beneficial buffs, so it's not going to remove a detrimental charm 'buff'. Was Silver Breath different in classic?

probably not that helpful, but this is the earliest mention I found on eqarchive
https://web.archive.org/web/20020917234919/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1262

Description:
1: Decrease Hit Points (HP) by 400 (L1)
2: Cancel Magic + 9 levels
Details:
Casting Time: Instant
Recast Time: 12 seconds
Skill: Evocation
Allowed Targets: Point Blank AoE
Resist: None
Range to target: 0
AE Radius: 300

[CrazyPro]

There's no data on Silver Breath for Live EQ until 2013, where it currently lists the dispel component as "Slot 2: Dispel Beneficial (95% Chance)" https://spells.eqresource.com/history.php?id=1480

There's also no data on the Abolish Enchantment clicky from Abashi's Rod of Disempowerment on live until the same date. https://spells.eqresource.com/history.php?id=1792

Both spells have this change at this exact same date: 05/21/2014 - Slot 2 changed from 'Dispel Beneficial (0.9% Chance)' to 'Dispel Beneficial (95% Chance)'

Both spells show up as Cancel Magic(9) on both the archived spell data Mortdecai99 listed above and the spell data gathered from EQMac: https://lucy.alkabor.com/spell_1480.html

It seems that the "Dispel Beneficial" component didn't exist until that date in 2014, where they swapped out the component and then changed the base value of the component, which was 9 for both spells from when they were using a simple dispel component, which is why it shows as being changed from a 0.9% chance to a 95% chance.

The ID for the Dispel Beneficial component is 950 which is waaay out of our era mixed in with a ton of spell components that did not exist until over a decade later in that ID number range. IDs for spell components that existed in Velious are roughly 0-119 from what I can see, with disciplines a bit further back behind mixed in with some Luclin components at 168-182. Everything past that is is just more Luclin, PoP, and <insert list of every expansion here> components.

So there should be no dispel on p99 that only dispels beneficial spells. The abashi clicky currently only dispels beneficial spells on P99 so that spell also needs to be reverted to a normal cancel magic component as well as any other spell that is using the out of era Dispel Beneficial component.

[CrazyPro]

The ID for the Dispel Beneficial component is 950 which is waaay out of our era mixed in with a ton of spell components that did not exist until over a decade later in that ID number range. IDs for spell components that existed in Velious are roughly 0-119 from what I can see, with disciplines a bit further back behind mixed in with some Luclin components at 168-182. Everything past that is is just more Luclin, PoP, and <insert list of every expansion here> components.

Too late to edit this but I was reading the wrong value, the ID for the dispel beneficial component is 209 which means it was probably added in Luclin. The ID for the normal dispel component is 27. Everything else I said still adds up though, the component was definitely not changed to dispel beneficial until 2014 on any of the dispels from our era.

The 950 was actually the base value of the % chance to to dispel of the component. So the dispel strength of 9 becoming a 0.9% dispel chance when the component was initially changed makes perfect sense now.

[bivouac]

Personal tests seem ok for charm being removed from charmed pets from Cazic Thule's AE, but with multiple reports here there must be something else going on.


CT's Avatar Snare works as a sort of auto-junk buff on pets as it gets reapplied every few seconds while Avatar Power only dispels the top slot ~twice a minute. You can see similar snare->dispel behavior on the player's buff bar between 6:20 and 6:36 in CrazyPro's linked video (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3786440&postcount=6).

[nilbog]

The abashi clicky currently only dispels beneficial spells on P99 so that spell also needs to be reverted to a normal cancel magic component as well as any other spell that is using the out of era Dispel Beneficial component.

Fixed, pending update

-Abolish Enchantment and Silver Breath now correctly use cancel magic effects rather than dispelling only beneficial buffs.

[Baugi]

Fixed, pending update

-Abolish Enchantment and Silver Breath now correctly use cancel magic effects rather than dispelling only beneficial buffs.

Fairly sure this isn't accurate. Abashi's has a long storied history of PVP use for dispelling only beneficial effects. A low-hanging in-era reference -


Nov 08 2001 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
Zwoop
28 posts
Not sure what you guys saying - but as far as I know, the effect on this staff is an unlimited right clickable and targetable dispell. And even better, it's my understanding it only dispells "positive" buffs, so you can use it on mobs after other buffs have already been cast, like Malo and Occlusion.

-- Zwoop


Lucy has a much deeper history of changes that seem consistent with a hard-coded unique effect that wouldn't necessarily be parsed correctly by a dump? - https://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1792&source=Live

[oodat_p99]

I will have to dig my old hard drive and try to find some evidence for this, but I have had an Abashi on my beastlord Wintu on live for probably somewhere around 22-23 years, and it has only (for as long as I have ever had it) ever dispelled beneficial buffs.

That was the entire reason I got it.

[CrazyPro]

Fixed, pending update

-Abolish Enchantment and Silver Breath now correctly use cancel magic effects rather than dispelling only beneficial buffs.

Hold your horses, this is probably actually wrong

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7008&p=2#m100526170990994

Dispell ...
Nov 08 2001 at 6:21 PM
__DEL__1592245713894
28 posts
Not sure what you guys saying - but as far as I know, the effect on this staff is an unlimited right clickable and targetable dispell. And even better, it's my understanding it only dispells "positive" buffs, so you can use it on mobs after other buffs have already been cast, like Malo and Occlusion.

-- Zwoop

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7008&p=2#m100525811488947

heheh

Nov 08 2001 at 5:21 PM
__DEL__1591750246078
Scholar
**
312 posts
The proc on this weapon dispells 4 of the weilder's buffs each time it procs. Yah, It's uber, but only if you don't need buffs.

[nilbog]

In the trilogy client spdat, both of the spells had the Cancel Magic effect .

Whether or not there was additional handling for the Abashi's item and/or Abolish Enchantment spell needs further research.

[CrazyPro]

I've looked around a bit and can't find any testimony suggesting Klandi's AE dispelled only beneficial spells, but whatever it was that dictated whether or not the dispel component on a spell was beneficial-only or not is obviously not included in spells_en.txt spell data until over a decade later so there's really no way to tell, but I'd assume they wouldn't randomly change this decades later and were simply adding a new component specifically for beneficial-only dispels so they could include parameters that weren't there before like dispel chance for whatever new dispels they were adding on live at the time.

[oodat_p99]

Anecdotally of course, but I think that you should consider this, if it worked in a manner consistent with Cancel Magic... What use would it have ever been to a necromancer?

I will pull the hard drive in my old computer and look at it, but I spent a lot of time not only using this weapon but also dueling a friend who was a necromancer with one and his gig was to snare me, shadow step and then use it to strip my buffs while he dotted me.

[CrazyPro]

I've looked around a bit and can't find any testimony suggesting Klandi's AE dispelled only beneficial spells, but whatever it was that dictated whether or not the dispel component on a spell was beneficial-only or not is obviously not included in spells_en.txt spell data until over a decade later so there's really no way to tell, but I'd assume they wouldn't randomly change this decades later and were simply adding a new component specifically for beneficial-only dispels so they could include parameters that weren't there before like dispel chance for whatever new dispels they were adding on live at the time.

If it's not clear, I'm saying I think this drafted change is actually not classic and needs to be reverted, there's more than enough in-era testimony saying it only dispelled buffs, so I think it's very likely that it's simply something that was outside the scope of the spell data (at least that which is in the client) that was determining whether or not a dispel was beneficial-only at the time. Also my guild is extremely mad at me and will burn me alive and then probably quit the game if these changes go through, please save me Nilbog.

[CrazyPro]

I went ahead and asked Torven what the deal with this confusing spells implementation is, since he'd be the one who'd have any clue what on earth EQ devs were cooking up with this clicky in 2001, and he said "Sony liked to hardcode things. if it did beneficial only spells only then it was probably hardcoded at first before they added a proper spell field or SPA for it" for what it's worth.



also I feel like this would just be good to know for future reference that the spell data in old clients can't be 100% trusted since they might not show the full picture

Also it just kind of makes sense

Klandi's AE dispel was hardcoded to only dispel beneficial spells because otherwise he would dispel his own fear which is literally all he has going for him aside from the AE dispel+nuke.

The Abashi's Rod of Disempowerment clicky was hardcoded to only dispel beneficial spells because otherwise it wouldn't exactly be a rod of Disempowerment, now would it?

[CrazyPro]

Okay so I've got it all figured out I think. I talked with some more long-time EQEmu geniuses to get to the bottom of this since it really confused me and found out some things.

Many spells in classic had hardcoded elements, over time the hardcoding in these spells was removed and made into actual spell data which you could see, (one example of this that they mentioned I won't mention because my guild's top raid leader will literally kill me if I bug report it since it would be a huge sweeping nerf to literally every single spell of his class, sorry Nilbog but you can't catch 'em all, they're already mad enough about the potential abashi nerf) so in actuality the "change" of Silver Breath and Abolish Enchantment from a normal Cancel Magic component to a Cancel Magic - Beneficial Only component was actually just the devs cleaning the spell up and thus making the spell data seen in the spell file reflect the actual truth as it always had been since the spell's inception.

[Baugi]

Also it just kind of makes sense

Klandi's AE dispel was hardcoded to only dispel beneficial spells because otherwise he would dispel his own fear which is literally all he has going for him aside from the AE dispel+nuke.

Seems worth mentioning that several other dragons do both fear and dispel without a similar carve out. Also, Klandicar didn't cast Silver Breath until one of his buffs mid-Velious so it was originally designed for other mobs. I think mainly LtK since Dozekar was also buffed? PoG is a mystery to me.

However, Silver Breath does have the same weird history as Abolish Enchantment (presumably indicative of resolving the hard-coding?), e.g.

2004-12-15 10:29 Changed Slot 2 from "Cancel Magic(9)" to "Fading Memories"

which you don't see on other effects with "Cancel Magic(9)", for example Lava Breath -
https://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=861&source=Live

[CrazyPro]

Seems worth mentioning that several other dragons do both fear and dispel without a similar carve out.

Sontalak's dispel is a very small radius centered on the tank and was also used for evil eyes since launch I think, so it's not big enough of an AE to actually dispel many fears, hence why he wasn't just given a clone of Beholder Dispel with hardcoding to only dispel beneficial buffs.

Also, since you mention it, I found a video of pre-buff Klandicar which is pretty neat, he literally only fears.

[nilbog]

Will wait on more research to be found.

The only verifiable information is that Silver Breath and Abolish Enchantment originally used cancel magic effects.

[CrazyPro]

Will wait on more research to be found.

The only verifiable information is that Silver Breath and Abolish Enchantment originally used cancel magic effects.

Okay, time to drop the nuke then.

The devs themselves hid a cheeky warning in a series of "UltraDeath" spells saying that the spell data that you see in your client's spell file is often overridden in the code: https://lucy.alkabor.com/search.html?searchstring=ultradeath

UltraDeathSpell:
Cast by you Oh come on, you know that there is no such thing as an ultra
Cast by other death spell in this game. This is EQ - we balance things
Cast on you as well as we can. No tank-mages. No uber class. Etc.
Cast on other etc. Thanks for asking though. BTW - what are you doing readi
Wears off this file? - Geoffrey Z.
UltraDeathSpell2:
Cast by you Just a FYI - I do practice poor mans encryption.
Cast by other This means that I intentionally fill in some unused fields with
Cast on you bad data. We also cap things in code and then display differen
Cast on other data here. In other words, don't trust stuff you read in here.
Wears off Why? Read UDS III
UltraDeathSpell3:
Cast by you Why give bad data? Because (a) players shouldn't be reading
Cast by other this (b) we don't want to spoil the mystery - and hard numbers
Cast on you do that. Therefore, expect to continue to see numbers change i
Cast on other spell.dat - this doesn?t mean the real spell changes - just the
Wears off info here. :)

An easy example of this being that nothing in the old spell data for fixed duration invisibility spells. Their duration was hardcoded, and then cleaned up to have the spell data be accurate waaaay later in the timeline, just like every other spell with hardcoding.

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1406&source=Live
Improved Invisibility for example:
2006-10-05 07:37 Removed Slot 1: Invisibility
2015-01-22 18:33 Added Slot 1: Improved Invisibility
From 2006 - 2015, this spell literally did nothing, according to spell data, yet it still functioned properly. Why? Because that was hardcoded.

The Silver Breath AE is supposed to be 375 range, I think part of it's hardcoding was to increase it's range by 25%, since they were trying to throw players off by giving them false spell data, as Geoffrey Zatkin conveyed in the spell text for his UltraDeath spells.
So this change: 2017-11-16 16:47 Changed AE Range from 300 to 375
Was just them removing the hardcoding that scaled up the range and then changing the spell data in turn to have it be accurate, they weren't actually buffing a random AoE from 2001 16 years later, that would make zero sense.

The best example I can give of spell data being wrong due to hardcoding behind the scenes and then being cleaned up way later in the timeline to remove the hardcoding and updating the spell data reflect how it always was, is bard song durations.

Bard songs all show up in the spell data as lasting 3 ticks, but they were hardcoded to actually last 2 ticks, and then later on in live as they were cleaning up old hardcoding in spell data meant to throw players off, they removed the hardcoding and corrected the spell data to be accurate to how these spells had always functioned in game.

You can find this change in the spell history of every single "3 tick" bard spell on https://lucy.allakhazam.com

2020-01-18 19:43 Changed Durationtext from 3 ticks to 2 ticks

There is mountains of evidence that bard songs were always 2 tick duration.
This does not mean that 18 second long bard songs were impossible, it sounds like you just had to time it just right for it to last an extra tick.

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/3035.html
1999-07-07
Start up Accelerando. When you see the "faster" message,
start your stopwatch and turn the song off. When you see the
"slow down" message, stop it. I got times between 12 and 18
seconds in about a half dozen timings, and when I'm running, I
*always* slow down when I see the "slow down" message. This
would indiciate that:

> Incorrect actually. Restoration is not a healing song, but
> rather a song that increases HP regen. It, like all other bard
> songs, lasts for 10 seconds from it's start. It does not heal
> on the pulse, the pulse just happens to be when HPs are
> updated. So starting and stopping Restoration does nothing to
> increase it's effect.

You are partly correct, partly incorrect. You're wrong in
that the song *does* heal on the pulse. The song effects seem
to be tied to a 6 second heartbeat. If you catch it right
before a heartbeat (I'm guessing when your hp naturally
regenerates), the song will last just over 12 seconds. If you
catch it right after, it will last just under 18 seconds. In
all cases, it lasts 3 pulses, and the healing happens *on* the
pulse. If you were correct and it didn't heal on the pulse
but rather increased your regen rate, you'd get a fractional
amount between 2 to 3 pulses worth of healing from starting
and immediately stopping Restoration. That doesn't happen -
you always get 3 pulses worth.

You are correct in that you cannot exceed the maximum healing
rate of one pulse every 6 seconds. If you try, you can see
your hp go up a second time, then immediately go back down to
match the original healing heartbeat. It's like the second
instance of Restoration causes a incorrect early refresh, but
the server sends the correct info on the first instance's
heartbeat.

> You can't twist more than 3. And then with only a third of a second to
> transition songs.

I *have* twisted 4. You need a fast connection and have to be
pretty accurate at guessing when the song effect will kick in.
With around 100 ms of lag, the 4th song ends just as or just
before the 1st song effect kicks in again.

I think I now know more about how this song pulse thing works
than I ever wanted to know. :-)

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/9622.html
1999-11-04
While in an external view during a battle for a screenshot, I
noticed something. It seems to me the song graphics show up a
fraction of a second before the text message (last night I was
having an atypical 280 ms ping time). I suspect what's going
on is that the graphics are drawn based on a client-side
timer, while the text messages are sent by the server. So the
slight difference is just the time it takes for the server
message to get to you.

I mentioned before that I usually use the song graphics
pulsing to tell me to switch to my next song. Some time ago,
I also said I thought our songs weren't lasting quite as long
as before, yet when I timed it I found no difference. Well
now that I think about it, I started getting this impression
about the time I turned particle density off and began using
the text messages to tell me when to switch songs.

So maybe this is why I was able to weave 4 songs?

On the topic of weaving 4 songs, I'm starting to wonder if JM
Capozzi was correct when he said our DoTs last for 10 seconds,
pulsing 4 times at 2.5 second intervals. I disagreed with him
because if you start/stop Accelerando, the boot icon (and
effect) lasts from 12-18 seconds. However, the latest test I
ran with weaving Clarity (the effect began to taper off when I
weaved it with 2 other songs) points to its duration being
somewhere between 7-11 seconds. I suspect what's going on is
that some effects (Accelerando, see invis, etc.) are entirely
client-side. These will last 12-18 seconds (depending on when
you started the song in the 6-second "heartbeat" cycle).
Others (Clarity, DoTs?, Hymn?) are server-side and quite
possibly could last only 10 seconds (which you can't really
see since the client only updates every 6 seconds).

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/newsgroups/alt.games.everquest-msg-174562.txt
2003-01-13
In article <v24a03nrobkm8d@corp.supernews.com>,
Connie <connietescar@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I started a newbie Bard today. I have a couple of probably easy questions:
>
>1. What is song twisting, and how do you do it?

Song twisting is a technique for having more than one song effect going
at once. Bard songs, in general, take 3 seconds to cast. Once cast, the
duration of the effect is ("however long you continue to play the song" +
12 seconds). So you get more effects going by stopping the song as soon
as you get it cast, then start casting a new one during the 12 seconds
before song #1 wears off. When song #2 is done casting, stop singing song
#2 and restart song #1 again. This is a two-song twist, because you have
two song effects up continuously. A three-song twist is where you play
three songs in rotation, etc.

So I would say it's safe to assume that the Abolish Enchantment and Silver Breath changes on live were just them cleaning up old hardcoding and making the spell data accurate, and it also just makes sense that there'd be some unique hardcoding behind a clicky named after a GM.

[nilbog]

I fully understand that spells can and do have server code that augments them beyond what is exposed in client side spell data.

The 209->27 changes can be reverted, but I wanted a good look at research. It's not like I disagree with the hypothesis, but that's really all it is. I was hoping someone would find evidence of Klandicar dispelling charm from pets in era, or not dispelling, as that would have been much easier to witness than the limited amounts of Abashi's that people were able to procure.

[CrazyPro]

I fully understand that spells can and do have server code that augments them beyond what is exposed in client side spell data.

The 209->27 changes can be reverted, but I wanted a good look at research. It's not like I disagree with the hypothesis, but that's really all it is. I was hoping someone would find evidence of Klandicar dispelling charm from pets in era, or not dispelling, as that would have been much easier to witness than the limited amounts of Abashi's that people were able to procure.

Oh, easy.

Here's something from 2004:
https://web.archive.org/web/20040705200146/http://p201.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallontour.showMessage?topicID=323.topi c

Anyone ever tried to solo Klandicar (ST key mob by DN zone in)? Other dragons in WW with AE dispel don't dispel charm, anyone know if this one (being unresistable) is different? Probably give it a go anyway, just wondering if anyone had experience with it.
iirc a bard from my guild soloed him he just kept throwing charmed dragons at him , but this was a while ago. I wasn't in the guild at the time but I heard about it.
So his AE dispel won't blow charm away every few seconds? Alright, time for me to die trying.

When they say "Other dragons in WW with AE dispel don't dispel charm" I'd like to point out that Entariz has Silver Breath.

[Darver]

I played a bard on live and I vividly recall only being able to charm 3 seb frogs effectively. But even then the 3rd mob would sometimes wear off mid mez due to the server ticks and when the first song landed. At most you'd get 18 seconds. But that was 25 years ago...

[Baugi]

I was hoping someone would find evidence of Klandicar dispelling charm from pets in era, or not dispelling, as that would have been much easier to witness than the limited amounts of Abashi's that people were able to procure.

Charm pets on raids never happened, in my guild at least, and Klandicar was fairly trivial for the guilds farming him so there wouldn't have been any motivation to optimize. I suspect strictly Velious-era evidence of either is going to be scant.

Would you settle for evidence from before the "Fading Memories" spells file change at the end of 2004? It's how they evidently started unwinding the hard coding when they gave Rangers a beneficial only dispel during Omens, ie - Nature's Balance (https://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=5314&source=Live).

[beaon]

I fully understand that spells can and do have server code that augments them beyond what is exposed in client side spell data.

The 209->27 changes can be reverted, but I wanted a good look at research. It's not like I disagree with the hypothesis, but that's really all it is. I was hoping someone would find evidence of Klandicar dispelling charm from pets in era, or not dispelling, as that would have been much easier to witness than the limited amounts of Abashi's that people were able to procure.

It will probably be hard to find as we all know charming pets for raid encounters was not really a thing on live 20 years ago.

One thing we do see in that video I posted though was pets getting tossed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig7k_-2B8l8

And today one of the reasons why I thought CT wasn't doing a knockback at all is because pets didn't seem to get tossed at all,

Perhaps you already fixed that but it should at least be considered too.

BTW really appreciate you looking at this.

[nilbog]

It will probably be hard to find as we all know charming pets for raid encounters was not really a thing on live 20 years ago.

One thing we do see in that video I posted though was pets getting tossed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig7k_-2B8l8

And today one of the reasons why I thought CT wasn't doing a knockback at all is because pets didn't seem to get tossed at all,

Perhaps you already fixed that but it should at least be considered too.

BTW really appreciate you looking at this.

Knockback on pets is being investigated. The client doesn't 'math' npcs the same way it does players regarding knockback where players determine their own knockback amount. Doing some more looking in lieu of having visually rubberbanding pets.