Bow damage formula?

[Goregasmic]

Do we know the formula? After some googling I haven't found anything conclusive.

I remember reading somewhere the damage bonus followed that formula:

45+dly weaps = base + (delay - 31)/3
where base = ((level-7)/3)

but then I can't find the source anymore.

I also read a torven post saying it is basically: bow damage + arrow damage + mh damage bonus so basically it would be the good old ((Offense+STR)/100) formula applied to bows then split into a d20? Right now i have a 12dmg bow with 5dmg arrows and 23 damage bonus which yields 50 but I'll hit anywhere between 27 and 64 or so (non crit, no double damage) often in the low 30s range.

And yeah before anyone says it I know bow damage isn't very significant but it is hard to tell which bow is better/worse if you don't even know on which basis the damage is calculated.

Thanks.

[Cecily]

Thank you for your question. Always happy to help new players. Get an Earthshaker or Weighted Axe. Will improve your damage more than anything else. Wouldn't think too hard about it because it's busted. 8 dmg arrows are nice. 3 or 1 dmg work fine.

[Snaggles]

IMHO, the issue with bows is arrow burn rate since it’s a limited resource. Even if bracer arrows and you can last the fight, it adds to the downtime of making more. In big fights or solo challenges it’s a matter of if you can kill the mob with all your stacks.

For comparing bows I do the damage + arrow + damage bonus / delay. Really though, the exquisite/priceless/primal has the ideal speed to take advantage of the Earthshaker damage bonus and the ratio so be efficient per shot. I’ve done mid 40’s off disc with bracer arrows on Zlexak and about 100 on disc (vs HoT trash) with an Exquisite. Higher damage bows just give you a bigger gas tank to keep on plunking.

There are cases for the Windsaber or Bow of the Destroyer but my workhorse for a long time was an Exquisite. I’ve not yet had the Dagarn crack over 100dps but parsing it is annoying. The Windstriker has a pretty meh ratio but is the end goal for racers and efficient arrow use. I still need mine :( .

[Goregasmic]

Thank you for your question. Always happy to help new players. Get an Earthshaker or Weighted Axe. Will improve your damage more than anything else. Wouldn't think too hard about it because it's busted. 8 dmg arrows are nice. 3 or 1 dmg work fine.
Leveling a ranger (52) right now so it would be an earthshaker. It is on the shopping list but a bit farther down the priority list. I'm trying to get fletching up there for more arrow options too but I got a tolan's bracer today also.

Basically I leveled to ~48 solo with a fungi just facetanking with a shovel but now it seems like even with swarmcaller swaps it is getting tedious so I figured I'd get more arrows in to cheese it as difficulty increases.

I'm looking at bow options and snaggles did a good run down in another thread but it is kind of hard to know how faster bows with lower ratios would fare against slower bow with higher damage so the actual formula would help a lot.

[Goregasmic]

IMHO, the issue with bows is arrow burn rate since it’s a limited resource. Even if bracer arrows and you can last the fight, it adds to the downtime of making more. In big fights or solo challenges it’s a matter of if you can kill the mob with all your stacks.

For comparing bows I do the damage + arrow + damage bonus / delay. Really though, the exquisite/priceless/primal has the ideal speed to take advantage of the Earthshaker damage bonus and the ratio so be efficient per shot. I’ve done mid 40’s off disc with bracer arrows on Zlexak and about 100 on disc (vs HoT trash) with an Exquisite. Higher damage bows just give you a bigger gas tank to keep on plunking.

There are cases for the Windsaber or Bow of the Destroyer but my workhorse for a long time was an Exquisite. I’ve not yet had the Dagarn crack over 100dps but parsing it is annoying. The Windstriker has a pretty meh ratio but is the end goal for racers and efficient arrow use.

Yeah I've been thinking about what we said last time and yeah, windsaber/dagarn seem annoying to use and while the slower ones like WBoRZ are much easier on arrows it kinda feels like the damage bonus would be lost on them. It seems like Exquisite would strike a nice middle ground but without the formula it is kinda hard to know what's what if you don't own them to parse them.

Without a better formula I guess (damage + arrow + damage bonus)/delay will have to do.

[Snaggles]

Tolan arrows, Fleeting Quiver, SCHW’s, and a slow 2h (anything 50+ delay) will burn up highkeep. Los HP is the goal above all else.

[Goregasmic]

Tolan arrows, Fleeting Quiver, SCHW’s, and a slow 2h (anything 50+ delay) will burn up highkeep. Los HP is the goal above all else.

Yeah I have fungi/tolan's/seahorse belt and an AP (42/49). The next 2 step ups would be tantor's or Earthshaker but tantor's is worth almost as much as ES so might as well go for ES. Fleeting quiver is up next on the wishlist.

My bow skill is maxed but I mainly just pulled with it. Up to 48 I just face tanked unlimited WL panthers (33-37) basically so I never cared that much for bows but when I switched to CS wyverns (38-42) I could barely chain 2 if swarmcaller didn't proc early. Panthers have 2khp and wyverns 3k, which seemed some of the lowest in the 38-42 bracket. The 42-46 bracket seem to hover around 4.5khp so I'm bracing myself and I guess I'll have to be more creative.

According to the wiki HHK nobles are 38-42 too. I've avoided them because I was under the impression there weren't that many and it seems a very popular spot?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Snaggles PM'ed me with a similar question about archery, but more specifically about BFG. I'll post my initial findings reply here:


I did some initial research and a bit of testing. According to the EQEMU code, an archery attack uses the same function as a regular melee attack for the damage calculation. There is a switch case for archery to use DEX instead of STR, but idk if that applies to P99. The only thing I don't know is if p99 uses STR, DEX, or neither in the damage calculation.

This is probably why bows in the range slot still get the main hand damage bonus from whatever is in your primary hand, because it is using the same function for damage as melee calculations. My SK is indeed getting the 110 damage bonus from using a weighted axe on blue.

I looked at this video:

https://youtu.be/elAYmxcDOrM?si=y9Z4RbPvDFBs-a0W

And saw some damage numbers. The guy was using a UI that simplified his incomming text, so I am not sure if that was hiding if a hit was a crit or not.

He trueshotted with BFG. I believe his max damage without crit was around 346, and I think he crit for like 567 once.

Looking at my DPS calculator, these numbers are close to a Warrior who who is using a 59 damage 50 delay 1h weapon. I used Warrior instead of Ranger so I could see the crit number. This makes sense, as BFG with an 8 damage arrow would be (20 + 8) * 2.1 (trueshot multiplier) = 59 damage.

I do not know if the double damage for stationary targets thing when using archery exists on p99. I can't test it myself.

Under my current assumptions, you would calculate a BFG without trueshot and without stationary double damage as a 28/50 damage 1h weapon with bow crits basically.

This is just my initial, rough conclusion. Without my own Ranger to test this, I can't say this is true for sure. But according to my DPS calculator you'd get like 84 DPS with BFG + 8 Damage Arrows/Claw (no trueshot) and like 105 DPS with Baton/Claw. This isn't including bow crits, so BFG dps might go up to like 90ish DPS with crits. My calculator shows like a 5% boost to Warrior DPS with critical hits (not crippling blows).

With trueshot BFG does like 125 DPS not including crits.

Hope this helps!

[Snaggles]

Yeah I have fungi/tolan's/seahorse belt and an AP (42/49). The next 2 step ups would be tantor's or Earthshaker but tantor's is worth almost as much as ES so might as well go for ES. Fleeting quiver is up next on the wishlist.

My bow skill is maxed but I mainly just pulled with it. Up to 48 I just face tanked unlimited WL panthers (33-37) basically so I never cared that much for bows but when I switched to CS wyverns (38-42) I could barely chain 2 if swarmcaller didn't proc early. Panthers have 2khp and wyverns 3k, which seemed some of the lowest in the 38-42 bracket. The 42-46 bracket seem to hover around 4.5khp so I'm bracing myself and I guess I'll have to be more creative.

According to the wiki HHK nobles are 38-42 too. I've avoided them because I was under the impression there weren't that many and it seems a very popular spot?

I want to say bards are blue to 55. Nobles are a coin flip blue at 56. They have low 2k hps so go down easy with arrows. On blue they are not camped at all (usually). Not sure on green. Back then I used my Huntsman bow and it was fun but the DD will occasionally break root early.

Harmony won’t split them up. Gotta root and root, then go to work. Or snare and haul to the zone and split them that way.

[Cecily]

IMHO, the issue with bows is arrow burn rate since it’s a limited resource. Even if bracer arrows and you can last the fight, it adds to the downtime of making more. In big fights or solo challenges it’s a matter of if you can kill the mob with all your stacks.

For comparing bows I do the damage + arrow + damage bonus / delay. Really though, the exquisite/priceless/primal has the ideal speed to take advantage of the Earthshaker damage bonus and the ratio so be efficient per shot. I’ve done mid 40’s off disc with bracer arrows on Zlexak and about 100 on disc (vs HoT trash) with an Exquisite. Higher damage bows just give you a bigger gas tank to keep on plunking.

There are cases for the Windsaber or Bow of the Destroyer but my workhorse for a long time was an Exquisite. I’ve not yet had the Dagarn crack over 100dps but parsing it is annoying. The Windstriker has a pretty meh ratio but is the end goal for racers and efficient arrow use. I still need mine :( .
Windstriker is neat because how hard it nails things when the shitty bow accuracy works. The unresistable 100 nukes are cool, too. It's just not fun to use with the delay. It does respect your arrow supply more than any other option, however.

I agree with ~32/35 being the sweet spot for rangers. I ran Primal bow as my main bow. That ratio hurts. Non-rangers abusing weighted axes etc get more benefit from the quicker bows, but rangers have Trueshot and double damage passives that benefit more from the higher base damage. And again, like you mention, running out of arrows sucks so balanced damage and moderate delay is optimal.

You're gonna be running Tolan arrows primarily (3 dmg 50 range) and 1 - 6 / 150s for fancy occasions like AEs or FTE. Any other option isn't a good choice unless you wanna throw away a bunch of 8 dmgs into a BFG trueshot burn to play rogue for a mob. Too expensive and range sucks on them.

[Cecily]

Leveling a ranger (52) right now so it would be an earthshaker. It is on the shopping list but a bit farther down the priority list. I'm trying to get fletching up there for more arrow options too but I got a tolan's bracer today also.

Basically I leveled to ~48 solo with a fungi just facetanking with a shovel but now it seems like even with swarmcaller swaps it is getting tedious so I figured I'd get more arrows in to cheese it as difficulty increases.

I'm looking at bow options and snaggles did a good run down in another thread but it is kind of hard to know how faster bows with lower ratios would fare against slower bow with higher damage so the actual formula would help a lot.
Can't imagine how swapping weapons would be tedious. Anyways look at this chart: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

That number will get tacked onto your bow damage. It's completely wrong and broken. Earthshaker will boost your archery to something semi-reliable, soon. You're still at kind of a bad bonus at 52, but later on you'll have minimum 100-ish dmg shots with nice bows with +56 dmg coming from bonus at 60.

Tbh just running the Swarmcaller mainhand works, too. You get +15 dmg bonus now. It's about half as good as ES.

[Snaggles]

Windstriker is neat because how hard it nails things when the shitty bow accuracy works. The unresistable 100 nukes are cool, too. It's just not fun to use with the delay. It does respect your arrow supply more than any other option, however.

I agree with ~32/35 being the sweet spot for rangers. I ran Primal bow as my main bow. That ratio hurts. Non-rangers abusing weighted axes etc get more benefit from the quicker bows, but rangers have Trueshot and double damage passives that benefit more from the higher base damage. And again, like you mention, running out of arrows sucks so balanced damage and moderate delay is optimal.

You're gonna be running Tolan arrows primarily (3 dmg 50 range) and 1 - 6 / 150s for fancy occasions like AEs or FTE. Any other option isn't a good choice unless you wanna throw away a bunch of 8 dmgs into a BFG trueshot burn to play rogue for a mob. Too expensive and range sucks on them.

Agreed. :)

I really want a Windstriker for racing and those stun-double damage hits. It’s just an all around good bow outside pure ratio for dps.

The weighted axe really is the game changer for the Dagarn. I’ve seen warriors do solid dps with them (I recall one doing 70’s on Eashen).

I tend to open with a 2h and jolt between swings (x10-12 times), swap to BFG/Swiftwind to disc with 8’s and pray. On shorter fights it seems better to just disc and jolt but it’s a bit less efficient if the fight lasts over 2 minutes. For range stuff I pick up Flights in SFG with my Druid and just drop transfer them.

[Goregasmic]

I want to say bards are blue to 55. Nobles are a coin flip blue at 56. They have low 2k hps so go down easy with arrows. On blue they are not camped at all (usually). Not sure on green. Back then I used my Huntsman bow and it was fun but the DD will occasionally break root early.

Harmony won’t split them up. Gotta root and root, then go to work. Or snare and haul to the zone and split them that way.

Blue cons are at -14 for 54-57 according to the wiki so at 55 only the 41-42s would be blue and 40s would be high green, leaving 38-39 no exp green. Not sure if that is acceptable for a melee camp. Not scared of some root CC action either, since the lvl 51 longer root it is a breeze.

Windstriker is neat because how hard it nails things when the shitty bow accuracy works. The unresistable 100 nukes are cool, too. It's just not fun to use with the delay. It does respect your arrow supply more than any other option, however.

I agree with ~32/35 being the sweet spot for rangers. I ran Primal bow as my main bow. That ratio hurts. Non-rangers abusing weighted axes etc get more benefit from the quicker bows, but rangers have Trueshot and double damage passives that benefit more from the higher base damage. And again, like you mention, running out of arrows sucks so balanced damage and moderate delay is optimal.

You're gonna be running Tolan arrows primarily (3 dmg 50 range) and 1 - 6 / 150s for fancy occasions like AEs or FTE. Any other option isn't a good choice unless you wanna throw away a bunch of 8 dmgs into a BFG trueshot burn to play rogue for a mob. Too expensive and range sucks on them.

Yeah exq velium reinforced bow looks like the best compromise. It is 20-25k on green though and earthshaker is 20k and I just went broke buying a tolan's bracer with my last 10k so I got a lot of farming on my chanter ahead which I'm kind of dreading right now after farming for a fungi. I used to think I might have to farm a windsaber but even a 25dly sarnak war bow hasn't exactly been economical.

Yeah I love the 150 range arrows. Not always warranted but pulling across the map with a raincaller in EW/WL has been fun and safer. Don't really plan on fighting in open spaces for now so I just fletch the highest hitting ones I can skill up on for pulling and spam with tolan's if I need to.


Can't imagine how swapping weapons would be tedious. Anyways look at this chart: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

That number will get tacked onto your bow damage. It's completely wrong and broken. Earthshaker will boost your archery to something semi-reliable, soon. You're still at kind of a bad bonus at 52, but later on you'll have minimum 100-ish dmg shots with nice bows with +56 dmg coming from bonus at 60.

Tbh just running the Swarmcaller mainhand works, too. You get +15 dmg bonus now. It's about half as good as ES.

Nah you misunderstood me. I meant the mobs have been more tedious to kill in general. I don't mind swapping swarmcaller because an early proc is a night and day difference at this point. I switch between spade and AP also depending on if I want the spade or not to proc. That last 15%-20% on a fleeing mob makes an appreciable difference in efficiency. The difference in dps between swarmcaller and AP is noticeable so I'd rather swap once SC procced. I mean, if you're dad camping a 6:40 mob it doesn't matter but if you want to be efficient all those little things help.

And yeah I did take another look at that lucy 2hander damage bonus chart yesterday and I didn't remember damage bonus doubling between 50 and 60. Difference between AP and ES is about 25% too.

[TytosOfEight]

I levelled from 46 to 54-55 with the Bow of Huntsman. I used a rusty halberd but an Earthshaker is better. It would proc 15+ times per fight. That's a lot of additional damage. I moved onto a Skydarkener at 55 and started quad kiting with it. But, I found it was far better for single targets. I'd snare and shoot then root, and then shoot, sit, shoot, sit, etc. Super efficient and the procs add up a ton. I pretty much only killed Geonids and Sents to 60.

[Cecily]

I levelled from 46 to 54-55 with the Bow of Huntsman. I used a rusty halberd but an Earthshaker is better. It would proc 15+ times per fight. That's a lot of additional damage. I moved onto a Skydarkener at 55 and started quad kiting with it. But, I found it was far better for single targets. I'd snare and shoot then root, and then shoot, sit, shoot, sit, etc. Super efficient and the procs add up a ton. I pretty much only killed Geonids and Sents to 60.
That's an important mechanic to be aware of, too. Your mainhand determines your proc rate with a bow. So one of the huge benefits from Earthshaker is the +++ proc rate. It's awful trying to proc with a Baton.

[Snaggles]

Blue cons are at -14 for 54-57 according to the wiki so at 55 only the 41-42s would be blue and 40s would be high green, leaving 38-39 no exp green. Not sure if that is acceptable for a melee camp. Not scared of some root CC action either, since the lvl 51 longer root it is a breeze.


That place has a ton of blue spawns to 55 so you have 3 levels of bliss and fine steel. Plus 55 is a nice upgrade for the ranger.

Even if you kept it boring and just killed Boshinko it’s a solid camp to plunk while you watch YouTube. No splitting needed.

[Goregasmic]

That's an important mechanic to be aware of, too. Your mainhand determines your proc rate with a bow. So one of the huge benefits from Earthshaker is the +++ proc rate. It's awful trying to proc with a Baton.

... didn't know that, interesting fact!


That place has a ton of blue spawns to 55 so you have 3 levels of bliss and fine steel. Plus 55 is a nice upgrade for the ranger.

Even if you kept it boring and just killed Boshinko it’s a solid camp to plunk while you watch YouTube. No splitting needed.

I have to return to antonica for other business so I will check it out.

[Duik]

How do we know that proc rate on earthshaker is more?

[Snaggles]

How do we know that proc rate on earthshaker is more?

All weapon procs are normalized “per minute”, high delay weapons just proc more per swing as you get less of those per minute.

Bows use the MH for damage bonus and proc per shot average. Actual delay is on the bow.

I expect nobody has done specific testing but the proc per shot average is MUCH higher in my anecdotal testing (a primal bow with a shaker procs a ton). Also, every bow racer runs no-haste, shaker, and Windstriker for that reason…an instant 350 range whirlwind proc gets you the FTE on Sev and ST golems.

[Goregasmic]

Snaggles PM'ed me with a similar question about archery, but more specifically about BFG. I'll post my initial findings reply here:

If it is the melee formula then:

[Max Damage] = ([Mod] x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus] (rounded down)
[Mod] is calculated as: ([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100

Do you know if Mod uses offense or archery?

If I guesstimate (210 + 215)/4 = 4.25 for my Mod @54

Then 12dmg bow, 5dmg arrow and an argent protector so 25dmg bonus

(4.25 x 17) + 25 = 97 max hit.

I'd have to double check but I'm not sure i've ever seen a 97dmg bow hit ever, highest has been mid 60s without crit but I'd have to reconfirm, haven't used bow extensively the last few levels. Am I missing something?

Using dext (110ish) instead of str gives a 80 max hit, probably much closer to the truth but a zillion people (one guy from my research?) reported bows use str so I don't know about that.

[bcbrown]

I ran a couple experiments with three variables:
* Swarmcaller versus Swiftblade of Zek/Swiftwind
* Bow of the Huntsman(20/30) versus Rain Caller (20/45)
* Bought arrows (1 dmg) versus Summoned arrows (3 dmg)

I didn't realize until after the experiment that my two bows had the same damage with different delay. I knew Huntsman had a better ratio but completely forgot they had same damage. Oops.

I killed one hill giant with each setup, and I didn't do all the possible permutations. For one fight I killed Shiel instead, so for that fight I'm not including the average damage. This data is all incredibly noisy, since each fight is only 40-50 hits. I was hoping it would hint at a similar situation to melee damage, where there's a modal value that's the most common value to hit for, with long tails above and below that value that are affected by str, attack, offense/defense skill differential, level differential, whatever else.

Here's the data. The first row is against Shiel, the rest hill giants. The three numeric columns are modal hit, average hit, and the calculated MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage.

bought arrows sboz gleeds 32 31
bought arrows swarm gleeds 49 48 48
summoned sboz gleeds 34 37 33
summoned sboz raincaller 34 40 33
summoned swarm gleeds 51 55 50
summoned swarm raincaller 51 53 50


The fact that both bows have the same damage value is too bad, but it does look like the MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage calculation does predict the modal value pretty well. I'm guessing (MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage) / delay is gonna work about as well as a rule of thumb as (2x damage + MH bonus) / delay does for mainhand melee.

[bcbrown]

Here's an interesting chart I just made, graphing (dmg + bonus dmg + arrow dmg) / delay for a bunch of bows. The y-axis is the ratio, and the x axis is cycling through various mainhands. The mainhands are swiftblade of zek, swarmcaller, argent protector, earthshaker, and they're repeated three times, with 1dmg arrows, 3dmg arrows, and 8dmg arrows.

The thing that stands out to me is that Bow of the Huntsman and Exquisite Velium Reinforced Bow are virtually identical. If you have a low-bonus mainhand the velium is better, but with an AP or Earthshaker the Huntsman is actually better damage-wise, although it'll still eat a little more arrows.

Seems like if I've got Huntsman/Swarmcaller the Earthshaker will be a bigger upgrade than the Exquisite Velium, which is a bit of a surprise to me.

This is all predicated on using (dmg + bonus dmg + arrow dmg) / delay as the comparison.

Edit: this is using the bonus damage chart for a level 57, which is my current level.

[Snaggles]

Yea I did some rustic testing on spectres around 2020. Found the dps on those two bows similar that I sold my exquisite to spend the plat elsewhere. The only issues are the arrow burn rate and the proc breaking root ends up being annoying for close quarter work.

I’d pick up a light Velium bow for rotting when arrow efficiency matters.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If it is the melee formula then:

[Max Damage] = ([Mod] x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus] (rounded down)
[Mod] is calculated as: ([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100

Do you know if Mod uses offense or archery?

If I guesstimate (210 + 215)/4 = 4.25 for my Mod @54

Then 12dmg bow, 5dmg arrow and an argent protector so 25dmg bonus

(4.25 x 17) + 25 = 97 max hit.

I'd have to double check but I'm not sure i've ever seen a 97dmg bow hit ever, highest has been mid 60s without crit but I'd have to reconfirm, haven't used bow extensively the last few levels. Am I missing something?

Using dext (110ish) instead of str gives a 80 max hit, probably much closer to the truth but a zillion people (one guy from my research?) reported bows use str so I don't know about that.

Yeah the question I haven't answered is if bows use STR, DEX, or neither for the damage calculation. If your parses show that you never hit for higher than 80, my guess is STR isn't used for bows specifically.

In the EQEMU code they have a specific exception for bows to use DEX instead of STR. Since that special exception is already in place, it wouldn't be difficult to modify the special exception to use neither STR or DEX for bows on P99.

My SK at 68 Archery Skill has hit for up to 150 with a weighted axe in mainhand using a 25 damage bow with 1 damage arrows. My DPS calculator shows a max damage of 152 using my setup from the previous sentence if my STR was set to 1. I didn't do a ton of testing, but it is an interesting result that supports the idea that STR isn't used for bows.

Can you do some more parsing to get a better idea of your max damage with your bow and arrow setup?

[Goregasmic]

Yeah the question I haven't answered is if bows use STR, DEX, or neither for the damage calculation. If your parses show that you never hit for higher than 80, my guess is STR isn't used for bows specifically.

In the EQEMU code they have a specific exception for bows to use DEX instead of STR. Since that special exception is already in place, it wouldn't be difficult to modify the special exception to use neither STR or DEX for bows on P99.

My SK at 68 Archery Skill has hit for up to 150 with a weighted axe in mainhand using a 25 damage bow with 1 damage arrows. My DPS calculator shows a max damage of 152 using my setup from the previous sentence if my STR was set to 1. I didn't do a ton of testing, but it is an interesting result that supports the idea that STR isn't used for bows.

Can you do some more parsing to get a better idea of your max damage with your bow and arrow setup?

Fired a couple stacks this morning.

54 ranger
Min hit 27
max hit 70

12dmg bow
5dmg arrows
25dmg bonus (42/49 weap)
227str self buffed
101dex
1110atk

I just leveled so offense/archery/2hs moved a bit but they were all maxed at 53 so probably won't move the needle much.

Btw, as far as I know the claim that archery doesn't use dex but str comes from this post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242638) where Ivory states:

We discovered it when we were both archering, and I noticed him hitting way more than me. Surely this was impossible, since my DEX is 226 unbuffed...and his is only 100 or so. BUT he had 225+ str!! and mine is only 99!!

So we stripped him naked and had him archery with low str...and it was true!!! Archering is using the wrong stat!!! Crazy? I agree!! Super crazy!!

Notice no mention of weapons used so if she was DWing and he stripped his swarmcaller then that could explain the disparity but who knows. Seeing most rangers have a huge str/dex disparity this should easily be figured out with the proper max hit formula.

[Goregasmic]

Here's an interesting chart I just made, graphing (dmg + bonus dmg + arrow dmg) / delay for a bunch of bows. The y-axis is the ratio, and the x axis is cycling through various mainhands. The mainhands are swiftblade of zek, swarmcaller, argent protector, earthshaker, and they're repeated three times, with 1dmg arrows, 3dmg arrows, and 8dmg arrows.

The thing that stands out to me is that Bow of the Huntsman and Exquisite Velium Reinforced Bow are virtually identical. If you have a low-bonus mainhand the velium is better, but with an AP or Earthshaker the Huntsman is actually better damage-wise, although it'll still eat a little more arrows.

Seems like if I've got Huntsman/Swarmcaller the Earthshaker will be a bigger upgrade than the Exquisite Velium, which is a bit of a surprise to me.

This is all predicated on using (dmg + bonus dmg + arrow dmg) / delay as the comparison.

Edit: this is using the bonus damage chart for a level 57, which is my current level.

Thanks for saving me 20k!

Seeing my sarnak war bow is slightly worse than a windsaber which is second highest that's pretty nice. Huntsman is cool too but there's only a 5dly difference in the end, no huge arrow savings to be made there. The stats on the sarnak are pretty nice too.

Indeed surprising that exquisite sits on top of huntsman when the former has an extra 12dmg for only 6delay.

Also good to know (bow + arrow + bonus damage)/delay is a good indicator, I'll check a couple more bows later.

[bcbrown]

Yea I did some rustic testing on spectres around 2020. Found the dps on those two bows similar that I sold my exquisite to spend the plat elsewhere. The only issues are the arrow burn rate and the proc breaking root ends up being annoying for close quarter work.

I’d pick up a light Velium bow for rotting when arrow efficiency matters.

Good to see that your testing agrees with my extremely tenuous napkin math. Agreed the velium bow has a better quality of life, but I'm going to bump that down several slots on the priority list of gear acquisitions.

Thanks for saving me 20k!

Seeing my sarnak war bow is slightly worse than a windsaber which is second highest that's pretty nice. Huntsman is cool too but there's only a 5dly difference in the end, no huge arrow savings to be made there. The stats on the sarnak are pretty nice too.

Indeed surprising that exquisite sits on top of huntsman when the former has an extra 12dmg for only 6delay.

Also good to know (bow + arrow + bonus damage)/delay is a good indicator, I'll check a couple more bows later.

Yeah it saves me 20k too! I'm jealous of your sarnak war bow; I want to eventually farm a windsaber but I think for now I'll let the Huntsman take me to 60. It was surprising to me as well, but makes sense now. You can essentially think of the ratio as being the sum of three ratios, one for base damage, one for arrows, and one for damage bonus. With earthshaker and tolans this looks like 0.67 + 1.5 + 0.27 = 2.43 for Huntsman, and 0.89 + 1.25 + 0.22 = 2.36 for Velium. So essentially the contribution from base damage is vastly outweighed by the damage bonus, which lets the Huntsman catch up. I actually kind of like how it all works out; there's real tradeoffs between maximizing DPS with lower-delay bows versus maximizing arrow efficiency with higher-delay bows which means all of these bows have a time and place where they can shine.


DSM's earlier post on the BFG made me a little curious, so I did some parsing against hill giants with Tolan arrows. My prediction for damage calculation was base damage of 20 plus bonus of 10 (assuming it uses the 1h damage table) plus arrow damage of 3 for 33 damage, doubled to 66. The data was a little messy because I sometimes pulled with a bow, and since when fleeing I don't get the doubled damage.

I had:
207 misses
623 hits
527 double-damage hits
32 crits for 825 damage
75% hit rate, average hit of 92, modal hit of 82.

I have no idea what to make of this. Try as I might I can't find a way to make a modal hit of 82 make sense. Dividing in half to account for the double-damage hits, that's 41. There's no way to get to that number with 20 base damage, 3 damage arrows, and 10 damage bonus.


Looking at the graph, there's another smaller bump at 58. 17/24 of the 58-damage hits were not double-damage hits. I can get to that number by (20 + 3 + 1) * 2 + 10, and from there to 82 by (20 + 3 + 1) * 3 + 10. That would imply that when used as melee, the BFG is treated like a 24 damage weapon, doubled like usual for melee, with a 10 damage bonus added. And the "double damage" actually just adds another 24 damage, with the damage bonus not doubled. That would be absolutely crazy.

I want to do some further testing with 1dmg arrows instead of Tolans, and also do some testing with fear-kiting to see what the modal hit truly is without the "double damage" modification.

[Botten]

One note... I would caution on believing that the Bow of the Destroy is the better bow in all of this.

What you are seeing in all of these experiments is the bonus damage from the mainhand delay is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here.

My suggestion: Get the slowest main hand (Earthshaker) for the bonus damage and as close to the floor delay on the bow (with the use of haste) -- while then trying to strive for higher damage on the bow.

With full haste you may see the sarnak bow (https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/ranger-bows-and-archery-mechanics.247015/) doing more damage.

Even before bow quest it was known that BotD has bugged damage issues.

The "bug" with the Bow of the Destroyer (BotD) and haste in EverQuest is not a bug in the traditional sense, but rather a long-standing mechanical interaction related to the game's haste formulas and minimum attack delay.

The "Bug" Explained

Fast Bow Delay: The Bow of the Destroyer has a base delay of 17, making it the fastest bow in the game.
Haste Caps and Minimum Delay: EverQuest has a minimum attack delay that any weapon cannot go below, regardless of haste.
Wasted Haste: Because the BotD's base delay is so low, it quickly hits this minimum delay cap with standard haste, "wasting" any additional haste.
Quiver Haste Interaction: Quiver haste is applied differently than other forms of haste and could make slower bows perform better than expected relative to the BotD.

Resolution
This interaction is a fundamental aspect of the game's mechanics. The Bow of the Destroyer remains the fastest bow, but its potential DPS advantage is limited by the game's attack speed floor.

Edit - Note the highest haste cap of 100% is at level 60 (https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Good to see that your testing agrees with my extremely tenuous napkin math. Agreed the velium bow has a better quality of life, but I'm going to bump that down several slots on the priority list of gear acquisitions.



Yeah it saves me 20k too! I'm jealous of your sarnak war bow; I want to eventually farm a windsaber but I think for now I'll let the Huntsman take me to 60. It was surprising to me as well, but makes sense now. You can essentially think of the ratio as being the sum of three ratios, one for base damage, one for arrows, and one for damage bonus. With earthshaker and tolans this looks like 0.67 + 1.5 + 0.27 = 2.43 for Huntsman, and 0.89 + 1.25 + 0.22 = 2.36 for Velium. So essentially the contribution from base damage is vastly outweighed by the damage bonus, which lets the Huntsman catch up. I actually kind of like how it all works out; there's real tradeoffs between maximizing DPS with lower-delay bows versus maximizing arrow efficiency with higher-delay bows which means all of these bows have a time and place where they can shine.


DSM's earlier post on the BFG made me a little curious, so I did some parsing against hill giants with Tolan arrows. My prediction for damage calculation was base damage of 20 plus bonus of 10 (assuming it uses the 1h damage table) plus arrow damage of 3 for 33 damage, doubled to 66. The data was a little messy because I sometimes pulled with a bow, and since when fleeing I don't get the doubled damage.

I had:
207 misses
623 hits
527 double-damage hits
32 crits for 825 damage
75% hit rate, average hit of 92, modal hit of 82.

I have no idea what to make of this. Try as I might I can't find a way to make a modal hit of 82 make sense. Dividing in half to account for the double-damage hits, that's 41. There's no way to get to that number with 20 base damage, 3 damage arrows, and 10 damage bonus.


Looking at the graph, there's another smaller bump at 58. 17/24 of the 58-damage hits were not double-damage hits. I can get to that number by (20 + 3 + 1) * 2 + 10, and from there to 82 by (20 + 3 + 1) * 3 + 10. That would imply that when used as melee, the BFG is treated like a 24 damage weapon, doubled like usual for melee, with a 10 damage bonus added. And the "double damage" actually just adds another 24 damage, with the damage bonus not doubled. That would be absolutely crazy.

I want to do some further testing with 1dmg arrows instead of Tolans, and also do some testing with fear-kiting to see what the modal hit truly is without the "double damage" modification.

Interesting data! Thanks for that.

I took another look at the EQEMU code. The stationary double damage bonus is just damage * 2, done before the damage bonus is applied. So if you did 23 * 2 = 46 damage, you would end up with 46 * 2 + 10 damage = 102.

https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu/blob/9b3f9f356db1ed29ca8a098cad3682d041b0c5fd/zone/attack.cpp#L6384

One of the unique things about Archery is it has a global adjustable damage modifier that can be set on a per server basis, before the damage bonus is applied.

https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu/blob/9b3f9f356db1ed29ca8a098cad3682d041b0c5fd/zone/attack.cpp#L6390

For example, we could get 82 damage by doing the following:

23 damage * 2 = 46 * 2 (stationary double damage) = 92 * 0.783 (archery damage modifier) = 72 + 10 (main hand damage bonus) = 82.

If we could get some more data with different bows and/or arrows to get their modal hits, we could see if the global damage modifer for archery is being used. We should be able to use the same multiplier to get the modal hit for each bow/arrow combo.

To be clear, the 0.783 damage modifier number is just a guess I made based on the data you gave so far.

I think 0.783 may work for my data. 26 * 2 = 52 * 0.783 = 40.7 +110 = 150 rounded down. So far 150 damage is the best I've done with a 25 damage bow, 1 damage arrows, and a 110 damage bonus via weighted axe on my SK with 68 archery skill. I didn't do a large test, so I can't guarantee that 150 damage is my limit. But it is an interesting coincidence at least.

[bcbrown]

Interesting data!

Thanks! Looks like the BFG uses the 2H bonus table, not the 1H values. With 1dmg arrows and unrooted the modal value is 78. When rooted with 1dmg arrows the modal value is 56. That works out to 22 + 34 = 56 and 2*22 + 34 = 78. That's the 50-delay 2H bonus at level 57. What a weird weapon. You can dual wield with it but it uses the 2h damage table.

And that means the base damage that gets doubled is (dmg + arrow dmg + 1). That's still a little strange. But I guess the standard melee damage before damage bonus is (2xdmg + 1), so if I squint I can see how it all works out. I'm close to 58 which means an increase in the damage bonus so I'll be able to do more parses in a week or so.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks! Looks like the BFG uses the 2H bonus table, not the 1H values. With 1dmg arrows and unrooted the modal value is 78. When rooted with 1dmg arrows the modal value is 56. That works out to 22 + 34 = 56 and 2*22 + 34 = 78. That's the 50-delay 2H bonus at level 57. What a weird weapon. You can dual wield with it but it uses the 2h damage table.

And that means the base damage that gets doubled is (dmg + arrow dmg + 1). That's still a little strange. But I guess the standard melee damage before damage bonus is (2xdmg + 1), so if I squint I can see how it all works out. I'm close to 58 which means an increase in the damage bonus so I'll be able to do more parses in a week or so.

For melee weapons the most common damage value is generally weapon damage * 2 + damage bonus for higher level characters. You can see this in P99 parses. This is because there is a percent chance for your max damage on any swing to be capped at weapon damage * 2 + damage bonus.

I don't think BFG is using the 2h table. The math would be 21 * 2 + 34 = 76 for non-stationary and 21 * 4 + 34 = 118 for double damage. That doesn't match your numbers.

21 * 2 = 42 * 2 (double damage) = 84 * 0.783 = 65.7 + 10 = 76 rounded up is close to the 78 number you are getting for the double damage. Your previous data set was mostly using double damage attacks, so that is the better comparison value.

[kjs86z2]

BFG will forever be Big Fucking Gun in my eyes.

[bcbrown]

21 * 2 = 42 * 2 (double damage) = 84 * 0.783 = 65.7 + 10 = 76 rounded up is close to the 78 number you are getting for the double damage. Your previous data set was mostly using double damage attacks, so that is the better comparison value.

Look, I think my explanation is dumb as hell and likely wrong, but at least I can make my way to the right number. Your argument is that 75.7 is "close to 78"? Cmon man.

The three modal numbers I've measured so far are:
3dmg arrows, unrooted: 82
1dmg arrows, unrooted: 78
1dmg arrows, rooted: 56

I welcome other ideas to explain how to get to those numbers, but you gotta actually get to those numbers if you want me to take it seriously.

[TytosOfEight]

The BFG does use the 2h bonus table. Get a crit with it and look at the difference between base damage and crit damage, it's the same value as the bonus damage.

I can't find my parses but I've tested all bows. Bow the Destroyer and Primal Bow at 60 with an Earthshaker are the best dps bows, with little difference between them. However, you often get weird lag with the Dagarn bow because it's so fast, which I think might be interacting with the server tick. Essentially, the range button just greys out for a few seconds. It's weird. Low 30s feels like the best delay for a bow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Look, I think my explanation is dumb as hell and likely wrong, but at least I can make my way to the right number. Your argument is that 75.7 is "close to 78"? Cmon man.

The three modal numbers I've measured so far are:
3dmg arrows, unrooted: 82
1dmg arrows, unrooted: 78
1dmg arrows, rooted: 56

I welcome other ideas to explain how to get to those numbers, but you gotta actually get to those numbers if you want me to take it seriously.

I am not sure why you act ike this. There is no need to attack other posters.

Your initial explaination added 1 damage randomly, didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2, and used the wrong damage table. I am not sure why you think your idea should be taken seriously, while other ideas shouldn't be taken seriously.

If you read my previous posts, you would know 0.783 was a guess on a global damage modifier. Feel free to use a different number.

Can you provide your raw logs?

The BFG does use the 2h bonus table. Get a crit with it and look at the difference between base damage and crit damage, it's the same value as the bonus damage.

I can't find my parses but I've tested all bows. Bow the Destroyer and Primal Bow at 60 with an Earthshaker are the best dps bows, with little difference between them. However, you often get weird lag with the Dagarn bow because it's so fast, which I think might be interacting with the server tick. Essentially, the range button just greys out for a few seconds. It's weird. Low 30s feels like the best delay for a bow.

If that was true, your minimum damage would be at least 34 + 1 = 35 at level 57, due to BFG having 50 delay. Bcbrown was hitting for 26 damage at the lower end. There is no way to hit for less than your main hand damage bonus + 1.

[TytosOfEight]

I am not sure why you act ike this. There is no need to attack other posters.

Your initial explaination added 1 damage randomly, didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2, and used the wrong damage table. I am not sure why you think your idea should be taken seriously, while other ideas shouldn't be taken seriously.

If you read my previous posts, you would know 0.783 was a guess on a global damage modifier. Feel free to use a different number.

Can you provide your raw logs?



If that was true, your minimum damage would be at least 34 at level 57. Bcbrown was hitting for 26 damage at the lower end.


I just ran into CB and killed a few orcs. If you look at the two photos: first is with Baton - I got a 134 crit but did 145 damage (+11 bonus mainhand damage bonus). The second photo is a crit from BFG and did 154 crit but 196 damage (that difference is the same as the mainhand damage bonus for a 2h with the BFG delay).

BFG does use 2h damage table.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just ran into CB and killed a few orcs. If you look at the two photos: first is with Baton - I got a 134 crit but did 145 damage (+11 bonus mainhand damage bonus). The second photo is a crit from BFG and did 154 crit but 196 damage (that difference is the same as the mainhand damage bonus for a 2h with the BFG delay).

BFG does use 2h damage table.

Do you have some minimum damage examples? Unless Bcbrown's data graph was simply using bad numbers, he supposedly hit for 26 damage at minimum. That would be impossible with a 34 damage bonus.

[bcbrown]

If you had actually read my post where I explained how I gathered the data, you would find the answer to your question.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you had actually read my post where I explained how I gathered the data, you would find the answer to your question.

You could just provide the raw data and stop acting silly. You are just making the process of solving the problem more difficult via your poor behavior.

[TytosOfEight]

Do you have some minimum damage examples? Unless Bcbrown's data graph was simply using bad numbers, he supposedly hit for 26 damage at minimum. That would be impossible with a 34 damage bonus.

The two photos that I provided clearly demonstrate that the BFG is using 2h bonus damage. There's no other way of explaining it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The two photos that I provided clearly demonstrate that the BFG is using 2h bonus damage. There's no other way of explaining it.

There is simply some conflicting data, so I am trying to figure that out. Either Bcbrown has some bad data for his minimum hits, or something funky is going on with the critical hit messages.

Bcbrown cannot hit for 26 minimum damage using BFG if his damage bonus was 34.

Getting some minimum hit data would resolve the issue.

[TytosOfEight]

There is simply some conflicting data, so I am trying to figure that out. Either Bcbrown has some bad data for his minimum hits, or something funky is going on with the critical hit messages.

Bcbrown cannot hit for 26 minimum damage using BFG if his damage bonus was 34.

Getting some minimum hit data would resolve the issue.

You're living in fantasy land now. The crits are behaving exactly as expected.

If the 1h uses +11 damage bonus you would expect a difference between the crit and damage, at which point the damage bonus is applied, to be 11. And it is!

If the BFG uses the 2h damage bonus you would expect a difference between the crit and the damage, at which point the bonus is applied, to be 42 (50 delay at level 60 is 42 damage), which it is.

Both images show what would be expected if both damage bonuses were applied correctly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're living in fantasy land now. The crits are behaving exactly as expected.

If the 1h uses +11 damage bonus you would expect a difference between the crit and damage, at which one the damage bonus is applied, to be 11. And it is!

If the BFG uses the 2h damage bonus you would expect a difference between the crit and the damage, at which point the bonus is applied, to be 42 (50 at level 60 is 42 damage), which it is.

Both images show what would be expected if both damage bonuses were applied correctly.

I simply prefer to have definitive proof when there are conflicting data sets. I am not sure why asking for some minimum damage values to resolve this data conflict is "fantasy land". More data is better.

It would be good to know if Bcbrowns data has some flaws.

[TytosOfEight]

I simply prefer to have definitive proof when there are conflicting data sets. I am not sure why asking for some minimum damage values to resolve this data conflict is "fantasy land". More data is better.

It would be good to know if Bcbrowns data has some flaws.

You're right, and it was harsh of me to say "you're in fantasy land now." It came off harsher than I meant it.

If I'm honest, I would ignore Bcbrowns data, there's something else going on there. The evidence I provided is bullet proof and cannot be explained in any other way.

[TytosOfEight]

To further prove my point, I will now use an OT hammer and get a crit. It also has a 50 delay (like the BFG) and is a 2hander. If the difference between the crit and damage is exactly 42 (same as BFG) will you accept that crits are behaving correctly and are aligned perfectly with the 2h bonus table?

Here's the bonus damage table for 2handers: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?

[bcbrown]

The BFG does use the 2h bonus table. Get a crit with it and look at the difference between base damage and crit damage, it's the same value as the bonus damage.

Thanks for the confirmation! I looked at some of my crits and saw the same thing, a difference of 34. So as weird as it looks, my theory is that the modal damage is damage + arrow damage + 1 + 2h damage bonus, and when it's "double dmg" it's 2*(damage + arrow damage + 1) + 2h damage bonus.

I'm going to do some testing with silver arrows. My prediction is that it'll be 20 + 8 + 1 + 34 = 63, and 2*(20 + 8 + 1) + 34 = 92.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're right, and it was harsh of me to say "you're in fantasy land now." It came off harsher than I meant it.

If I'm honest, I would ignore Bcbrowns data, there's something else going on there. The evidence I provided is bullet proof and cannot be explained in any other way.

No worries! Don't get me wrong, your screenshots are very convincing evidence due to them matching the damage tables correctly. I wasn't trying to belittle your evidence. I apologize if it seems that way.

I agree that Bcbrown's data seems odd. 23 * 2 + 34 = 80 damage for the non-double damage values. But he was getting mostly 82's. His double damages should be 23 * 4 + 34 = 126, but he doesn't have that many 126 damage hits.

He needs to post his raw data. He doesn't seem to be organizing and graphing it correctly.

[TytosOfEight]

No worries! Don't get me wrong, your screenshots are very convincing evidence due to them matching the damage tables correctly. I wasn't trying to belittle your evidence. I apologize if it seems that way.

I agree that Bcbrown's data seems odd. 23 * 2 + 34 = 80 damage for the non-double damage values. But he was getting mostly 82's. His double damages should be 23 * 4 + 34 = 126, but he doesn't have that many 126 damage hits.

He needs to post his raw data. He doesn't seem to be organizing and graphing it correctly.

As expected, a crit of 69 and damage of 111 with OT hammer, which is a +42 damage with a 50 delay 2h.

[bcbrown]

He needs to post his raw data. He doesn't seem to be organizing and graphing it correctly.

As I said,

The data was a little messy because I sometimes pulled with a bow, and since when fleeing I don't get the doubled damage.

Interested in making a prediction for the modal values for +8 arrows? I'm going to be fighting Stonebrunt animals.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As expected, a crit of 69 and damage of 111 with OT hammer, which is a +42 damage with a 50 delay 2h.

Thanks for doing the experiment! The order of operations in the EQEMU does crits before adding the damage bonus, so this makes sense. The message seems bugged on P99 then. In the EQEMU code it looks like the crit message includes the damage bonus already.


Interested in making a prediction for the modal values for +8 arrows? I'm going to be fighting Stonebrunt animals.

I'd prefer to just get the raw data. There's no reason to hide it and act this way. We are just trying to solve the problem. Making things more difficult isn't helping anyone. Please get a consistent data set with easily discernable damage values that are marked as double damage or not double damage.

[bcbrown]

The problem's all solved. We already know that melee weapons have a modal value equal to 2*dmg + bonus. I've already parsed the modal values for BFG with 1 and 3dmg arrows. They fit a pattern of damage + arrow damage + 1 + 2h damage bonus, with double damage not including the damage bonus. The modal value when unrooted with Tolan's arrows is 82. SBOZ is (2*11+10)/18 = 1.77, and 82/50 is 1.64 for BFG. Against Bloodmaw a while back I got:

bloodmaw_bfg_no_disc 0:08:49 529 72.36 89.74%
bloodmaw_zek 0:07:22 442 74.49 93.70%

So the modal values for SBOZ and BFG pretty well predict performance against Bloodmaw, as expected. And obviously if you care about damage against a specific mob you'll want to run parses against that mob.

My ranger's out adventuring in Stonebrunt right now and I don't have fletching high enough to craft +8s yet so it'll be a while before I can run those parses, but I'm pretty confident when I run do they'll be 63 and 92.

Oh, and one more thing:
23 * 2 + 34 = 80 damage for the non-double damage values. But he was getting mostly 82's. His double damages should be 23 * 4 + 34 = 126, but he doesn't have that many 126 damage hits.

82 is the value for the doubled hits. 58 is the value for the non-doubled hits. You're multiplying by 2 one too many times, and there's a weird +1 in the calculation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

82 is the value for the doubled hits. 58 is the value for the non-doubled hits. You're multiplying by 2 one too many times, and there's a weird +1 in the calculation.


We already know that melee weapons have a modal value equal to 2*dmg + bonus.


This is the core problem with your logic. You are ignoring the weapon damage * 2 + damage bonus formula for BFG specifically by simply adding weapon damage and damage bonus together to get 23 + 34 = 56.

Look, I think my explanation is dumb as hell and likely wrong, but at least I can make my way to the right number. Your argument is that 75.7 is "close to 78"?

56 does not equal 58. If you are going to attack someone for being off by two on an admitted guess, don't also be off by two yourself!

Your flawed logic and flawed insults aside, you may be right. If you take a look at the EQEMU code, they do actually have a line of code where they divide archery damage specifically by two before applying the double damage 2x multiplier, and before applying the damage bonus.

https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu/blob/9b3f9f356db1ed29ca8a098cad3682d041b0c5fd/zone/attack.cpp#L6370

For example, normally a 23/50 2h weapon at level 57 would have a modal hit of 23 * 2 + 34 = 80.

The Archery equivalent with the division by 2 would be (23 * 2) / 2 + 34 = 56.

Archery Double Damage with the division by 2 would be ((23 * 2) / 2) * 2 + 34 = 80.

I didn't initially bring up this damage / 2 line of code because it applies to all classes doing archery. It acts like the equivalent of a global damage modifier, so there wasn't a point in making things more complicated.

However, this would mean all classes other than Rangers would have their archery damage cut in half before the damage bonus is applied, with no double damage to get it back. We would need to get more data from non-Ranger classes to confirm that they are getting their archery damage halved before applying the damage bonus.

Finally, we still can't account for why your damage values are off by two. We would need more data to see if archery always gets a +1 to damage somewhere. It isn't likely that BFG is the only bow to get +1 weapon damage if bows do get this bonus. We should see the same trend for other bows.

This is why you should supply your raw data, so we can see if you did something incorrectly. I don't mean that as an insult, but everybody makes mistakes.

[Botten]

Speaking of double damage

At player level 60
Weighted Axe = adds flat 110 bonus damage
Earthshaker = adds flat 56 bonus damage

The Weighted Axe is providing almost double bonus damage compared to Earthshaker.

Max haste is 100%
Floor delay on P99 is about 18 or
Delay is rounded up. IE a ‘New (Hasted) Delay’ of 17.02 would result in a delay of 18 (https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide)

...considering Primal Velium Reinforced Bow 33/35 with 100% haste
New Delay 35/1.99 = Roundup 18 delay

Hasted Damage/Delay = 33/18

1. Warriors and Rangers both get 240 skill points in Archery
2. Excluding the discipline Trueshot (Ranger)
3. Excluding the discipline Precision (Warrior)
4. And considering Troll/Barbarian/Ogre Warriors and SKs can only use Weighted Axe while rangers can't

Is double damage from a ranger result in more or less damage compared to Warriors?

[bcbrown]

Looking back at when I measured modal values (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3772201&postcount=21) for Huntsman and Rain Caller, I found the modal value to be bow damage + arrow damage + 1 + damage bonus. At the time I was focused on bow damage + arrow damage + damage bonus and dismissed the off-by-one, saying it "does predict the modal value pretty well."

I think that about wraps it up. Archery by anyone will have a modal damage of bow damage + arrow damage + 1 + damage bonus, with the average damage being higher or lower than the modal damage depending on what mob you're fighting. If you're specifically a ranger above 50 shooting at a stationary unrooted mob, modal damage is 2 * (bow damage + arrow damage + 1) + damage bonus. If you're using the BFG in primary, the damage bonus will be the 2h damage bonus.

So to compare bows purely for bow-rotting rooted targets, you want to look at (bow damage + arrow damage + 1 + damage bonus) / delay. If you're gonna be shooting at targets someone else is fighting and you're a 50+ ranger, look at (2 * (bow damage + arrow damage + 1) + damage bonus) / delay.

And always take into account Snaggle's point about arrow efficiency and Botten's point about fast bows being in danger of overcapping on haste.

Case closed.

[Snaggles]

Speaking of double damage
Is double damage from a ranger result in more or less damage compared to Warriors?

I haven’t seen enough warrior bow parses to know but the weighted axe + bow game for them is very interesting. Especially if one is beserking.

In most situations it seems they are fairly even (maybe the edge to a zerking warrior). Rooted targets or moving targets really ruin the ranger fun. The BFG in some ways makes up for this, both in peak dps and not relying on ranged attacks on root or snare. It’s just nice two opposite classes can both share in an eclectic hobby, lol.

Also…

Thanks bcbrown and Tytos!

As a big BFG nerd it’s always confused me a bit. It doesn’t seem to have massive crits like the multiplying factors would make you believe. Most my crits on disc with 8 damage arrows are in the mid 300 range…yet it churns out dps in an underrated fashion. It using a 2h modifier similar to how the archery skill relies on MH delay actually makes a ton of sense. It must be that fat middle of the Bell Curve pays off in the end.

As for rotting efficiency, I hate to say it but I might have to pull the Skydarkener out of the bank. 28/44 is a horrid ratio but the damage is only 5 base points from a Primal. With an Earthshaker you get those 56 damage bonus hits and with a lot of Dex it’s likely 4ppm at minimum. At 184 per DD that’s just stretching your arrow budget. I’m still not enough of a sadist to quad kite with one though but it might let me delusionally pretend I have a Windstriker.

[Cecily]

Sky has the biggest nuke on any bow if you ignore the quad gimmick. It's legitimately a neat bow just for that.

[bcbrown]

Your initial explaination added 1 damage randomly, didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2, and used the wrong damage table. I am not sure why you think your idea should be taken seriously, while other ideas shouldn't be taken seriously.


Let me try to help you understand. It's very simple. Any idea has two fundamental criteria it must meet for me to take it seriously. It needs to explain the existing data. And it needs to make a prediction for a future experiment to evaluate. My ideas matched the measurements. I thought (bow + arrow + 1) + bonus was crazy at first but it matched the data. You said it "added 1 damage randomly". It turns out that was correct. You say it "didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2". It turns out that was correct. You say it used the "wrong damage table". It turns out that was correct.

Seeing my sarnak war bow is slightly worse than a windsaber which is second highest that's pretty nice. Huntsman is cool too but there's only a 5dly difference in the end, no huge arrow savings to be made there. The stats on the sarnak are pretty nice too.

Indeed surprising that exquisite sits on top of huntsman when the former has an extra 12dmg for only 6delay.

DPS and damage/delay ratios suffer from the same counter-intuitive problem as MPG as a metric for cars. What you actually care about is the inverse of the metric. Imagine you have a 100 mile daily commute. What's the bigger upgrade? Going from a 20mpg to a 30mpg car, or going from a 50mpg to a 100mpg car? It's the former even though the latter looks bigger. Going from 20mpg to 30mpg means you go from 100 mi / 20 mpg = 5 gallons to 100 mi / 30 mpg = 3.3 gallons, or 1.7 gallons in savings. Going from 50mpg to 100mpg means going from 100 mi / 50 mpg = 2 gallons to 100mi / 100 mpg or 1 for 1 gallon in savings. It's the same thing with DPS versus time-to-kill.

Let's assume the Sarnak War Bow is the current bow, the level for damage bonus is 57, and the mainhand bonus is Earthshaker. Lets look at damge, number of arrows to kill and time to kill for a mob with 3k hp:

Earthshaker: 45 bonus

Wind Saber: 62, 48 arrows, 1056 delay
Sarnak War Bow: 61, 49 arrows, 1225 delay
Bow of the Huntsman: 69, 43 arrows, 1290 delay
Exquisite Velium: 81, 37 arrows, 1332 delay


So upgrading to Wind Saber means no change in number of arrows, but 17 seconds less time per kill. Upgrading to Huntsman means 6.5 seconds longer per kill, but 6 less arrows. Upgrading to the Velium means 10 seconds longer per kill and 12 arrows less per kill.

Here's the same chart with Swamcaller: 27 bonus

Wind Saber: 44, 68 arrows, 1496 delay
Sarnak War Bow: 43, 69 arrows, 1725 delay
Bow of the Huntsman: 51, 58 arrows, 1740 delay
Exquisite Velium: 63, 47 arrows, 1692 delay



The way I interpret these numbers: Since this is assuming you're rooting the mob, time to kill isn't super important since you're not taking damage you'll need to heal. Summoning Tolan arrows gives you 20 per 15 seconds or 1.3 seconds each. So saving 6 arrows at the cost of 6.5 seconds per kill in time spent shooting means 6.5 seconds more spent shooting while saving 7.8 seconds summoning arrows. So with this (unhasted) perspective Bow of the Huntsman beats out Sarnak War Bow.

Now, this is napkin math with multiple serious caveats. This isn't taking into account hit rate, haste, or the fact that the average damage per hit will differ from the modal damage based on level difference, offense stats vs defense stats, etc. I think my takeaway is that no matter which of these 4 bows you have you're gonna ball out, and which you choose is as much down to personal style and personal access as anything else. If I had a Sarnak bow I'd try it out and see if I liked it more than the Huntsman. But these numbers reassure me that I'm not really at any disadvantage with my Huntsman.

Thanks bcbrown and Tytos!

As a big BFG nerd it’s always confused me a bit. It doesn’t seem to have massive crits like the multiplying factors would make you believe. Most my crits on disc with 8 damage arrows are in the mid 300 range…yet it churns out dps in an underrated fashion. It using a 2h modifier similar to how the archery skill relies on MH delay actually makes a ton of sense. It must be that fat middle of the Bell Curve pays off in the end.

Appreciate it! It's still a little confusing to me. With +8 arrows it looks like it behaves like a 29/50 2h weapon but you can dual-wield an offhand with it. I think it's just got so many weird interactions with enough combat mechanics that you just gotta enjoy the dps and not ask too many questions about how. So I guess we agree.