How do monks hold aggro in groups

[Dundrige]

Hi I love playing paladin but my friend said they are terrible compared to monks.

He said the ceiling is way higher because monks tank better, do way more damage, and can FD.

He also said paladins are pathetic.

My one question to him is how do monks hold aggro in groups? Say you are in a group with a bunch of casters... how are you keeping them alive? You can't taunt... you can't root.... you can't cast spells... so how?

[Cecily]

You bop em on the head. Victim blame the dead casters.

[Ephirith]

Monks hold agro through a combination of their own personal DPS and reliance on their group's utility, such as the casters rooting the mob and people using their agro dropping skills/abilities. Depending on the skill and composition of your group, this can either be very smooth and effective, or it can be a problem. I'd say it works out fine far often than it doesn't.

Your friend is not entirely wrong; monks just have an incredibly OP toolkit compared to any other melee. Big picture vs. big picture, paladins are pathetic compared to monks. Paladins are not terrible group tanks compared to monks, especially in a full group-- which is their niche. However, this is really the only place in the game where a paladin really shines, and I still wouldn't put them far ahead of a monk, because the velious geared monk is roughly as durable, yet puts out dramatically more DPS for faster kills. The snap agro is great and it's the reason I prefer Pal to monk tank in a group of 6, but it is optional, there are plenty of ways to manage agro. Stunning charm breaks and interrupting casters is also $$$ in a leveling group.

Monk dps and durability makes them a great contributor in the famous monk/shaman duo, but often overlooked is paladin/enchanter which is also pretty fucking great at all levels.

Hi I love playing paladin

Then play a paladin... it's not so much that they are pathetic, they are niche. Are soulfire raid clickies still a thing? Tell your friend to enjoy being the most overplayed class, and make sure he knows everyone is terrible compared to enchanters.

[Keebz]

As a monk, you auto attack and hope for procs. You can't really do anything else.

Paladins, and any class with spells really, have a pretty high ceiling. At any given moment you have a lot more options and choices to make, so there's power there if you can figure out how to make use of it. Overall, the tankiness and all the heals lead to some pretty impressive sustain. For example, there's people like Opmeter that can solo some pretty cool things like cliff golems.

On the other hand, Monks have an elegance with FD, sneak and clickies. There's subtle interplay in the mechanics, so you can do more than meets the eye. Not to mention monks simply scale the best with gear. But it's like a 3-4 button class at best. Autoattack, disc, fd... sometimes sneak.

[Vexenu]

Outside of pulling, Monks are by far the most braindead class in the game. Literally just auto-attacking while enjoying the best get-out-jail-free card possible with FD, so they're basically never punished for their mistakes compared to every other class. The class pretty much plays itself, especially once well-geared. For this reason, it's very difficult to tell a good Monk from a bad Monk if they aren't doing difficult pulls. The decision tree of a Monk at any given moment is basically, "Keep attacking or FD".

Paladins, on the other hand, have a much more diverse pool of options to choose from at any moment. Their decision tree has a lot more branches, and they are considerably more complex to pilot well as a result, and thus a good Paladin stands out much more clearly from a bad one. For example, imagine a scenario where you're tanking for a dungeon group and suddenly get trained by several adds, including a caster or two. One of your group members is immediately getting hammered and will be dead within seconds, and things look bleak. The Monk is basically powerless in this situation, and can't do anything except try to DPS the mobs down and then FD to save himself and prepare to CR the group.

In contrast, the Paladin can Lay on Hands the group member to save them, attack one mob to get agro, toss a stun on another to agro it, root a third out of melee range, drag the caster mobs around a corner and root them to keep them from casting on the group, then go back and help the group start downing the mobs one by one. Paladins have a toolkit that allows them to "make plays" in this regard better than every other class besides Bards, and thus a well-played Paladin is, like a well-played Bard, very obvious, memorable, and appreciated.

Paladins are also much easier to gear than Monks due to less competition for their high-end items, and their damage is very respectable with a good 2H weapon. A skilled Paladin will always be a welcome addition to any group or raid, certainly more so than just another forgettable warmbody DPS Monk. If you want to play a Paladin, don't let your friend discourage you. It's a great and highly capable class.

[Cecily]

Counterpoint. CC is less of big deal when your tank isn't doing negative DPS.

[Snaggles]

They are totally different classes. Basically two different tools.

I’m jealous of your friend. Navigating life without the pesky need to consider nuance must be nice.

[Ephirith]

Outside of pulling, Monks are by far the most braindead class in the game. Literally just auto-attacking while enjoying the best get-out-jail-free card possible with FD, so they're basically never punished for their mistakes compared to every other class. The class pretty much plays itself, especially once well-geared. For this reason, it's very difficult to tell a good Monk from a bad Monk if they aren't doing difficult pulls. The decision tree of a Monk at any given moment is basically, "Keep attacking or FD".

Paladins, on the other hand, have a much more diverse pool of options to choose from at any moment. Their decision tree has a lot more branches, and they are considerably more complex to pilot well as a result, and thus a good Paladin stands out much more clearly from a bad one. For example, imagine a scenario where you're tanking for a dungeon group and suddenly get trained by several adds, including a caster or two. One of your group members is immediately getting hammered and will be dead within seconds, and things look bleak. The Monk is basically powerless in this situation, and can't do anything except try to DPS the mobs down and then FD to save himself and prepare to CR the group.

In contrast, the Paladin can Lay on Hands the group member to save them, attack one mob to get agro, toss a stun on another to agro it, root a third out of melee range, drag the caster mobs around a corner and root them to keep them from casting on the group, then go back and help the group start downing the mobs one by one. Paladins have a toolkit that allows them to "make plays" in this regard better than every other class besides Bards, and thus a well-played Paladin is, like a well-played Bard, very obvious, memorable, and appreciated.

Paladins are also much easier to gear than Monks due to less competition for their high-end items, and their damage is very respectable with a good 2H weapon. A skilled Paladin will always be a welcome addition to any group or raid, certainly more so than just another forgettable warmbody DPS Monk. If you want to play a Paladin, don't let your friend discourage you. It's a great and highly capable class.

Paladins are one of those classes where the worse your group is the more valuable you are. Stopping a wipe or making a challenging pull easy is a great feeling for a hybrid.

Realistically though, in 2025, on two aged servers, more often than not your entire purpose as wipestopper gets pre-empted by a single well-placed AOE mez. Nobody rolls without an enchanter.

I agree though overall, this is precisely why I love to play hybrids against my better judgment. Although monk pulling in a place like sebilis or mistmoore is some of the greatest emergent gameplay in any MMO, ever.

[Snaggles]

On behalf of clerics and dps classes…I very much enjoy anytime a knight tanks.

Less spot heals and going harder on the dps makes a grind/raid fun. Plus, Paladins have an underrated kit. DA and Sanctification are amazing in VP and many other situations.

[kjs86z2]

monks are better in duos and trios where everyone's DPS matters

ill take a paladin in a full group any day, make the monk pull

[sammoHung]

Monks can hold aggro very well as long as they solo stuff.

[Jimjam]

Monks (from planes/kunark) have good ratio weapons which thanks to their weapon skills they swing more often.

[Snaggles]

I’m predicting someone will bring up ranger tanks so will broach the topic now.
See you on page 50 :D

[kjs86z2]

unless you're planning on getting a Gharns, FoN, and Abashi theres no point in playing a monk

[Cecily]

I’m predicting someone will bring up ranger tanks so will broach the topic now.
See you on page 50 :D

Is that with or without Tolan's Gloves? Because that makes a difference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is that with or without Tolan's Gloves? Because that makes a difference.

It does! One can use Wuoshi Shield or woven bark earring instead of Tolan Gloves if they want.

This allows you to save mana on Flame Lick and Snare, which translates to longer periods between med breaks.

Here are two good videos that show off this concept:

https://youtu.be/HGMz5gpf_EY?si=3DA3hrxW_UGIAWoK

https://youtu.be/yZjWT9dj2uI?si=wBsLlQg6SxYcZ_jq

I am so glad you learned some mana management for your three 60 Rangers. Your team mates will appreciate play sessions longer than 86 minutes.



My one question to him is how do monks hold aggro in groups? Say you are in a group with a bunch of casters... how are you keeping them alive? You can't taunt... you can't root.... you can't cast spells... so how?

As for Monks, they have less options. One tool you can use is Bio Orb, but it is expensive plat-wise. Blinding the mob will cause the mob to attack the closest target, similar to root. It is a bit riskier, as the mob will flee if everyone is out of melee range. Proc weapons can help too.

Having a teammate root the mob is the easiest solution. Monks pair very well with Shamans.

[Videri]

Monks can do more things, but paladins are vital and have their niche.

I'd rather have 50 monks and 1 paladin than 50 paladins and 1 monk.

But if you like the paladin, you can still bring great value to a group or raid. They have point-and-click aggro, the cascading stuns, heals, rezzes even, Divine Strength at 60, and the all-powerful SoulFire. Plus, they look a lot different from a monk. Play what enchants you.

[skulldudes]

if i grouped with a monk trying to use a bio orb to cc mindless grinding i think i'd just log out lmfao

[Wakanda]

I have to assume people are talking about really twinked monks. On P99 Green my first character was a cleric and my best friend was a human monk. Neither of us were twinked. He ended up tanking for about 65% of our groups. Can tell you right now we were both very relieved if we got a Paladin to join our groups. They held aggro way easier, dramatically more tanky. Also during Classic if they had a Ghoulbane their damage was kind of nuts (definitely felt the drop off when you swap from UR to MM)

But even on the last character I leveled on P99 where people were fairly tanky, I mostly had SK/Paladin tanks despite having a lot of Monks in the group.

I think people are mainly referring to if the Monk is super geared or something?

[Wakanda]

I’m predicting someone will bring up ranger tanks so will broach the topic now.
See you on page 50 :D

Whenever I played my Shaman in Karnor's I had no problem with Ranger tanks because with my slows, basically anyone can tank, and he seemed to get single pulls really easily / wolf form from lupine dagger, and harmony. Track to snipe skeletal warlords etc. I imagine a Cleric or Druid would have had a harder time keeping him topped off though.

[sammoHung]

I think people are mainly referring to if the Monk is super geared or something?

Yes, someone mentioned Fist of Nature and Gharn's Rock. Without these, monk just can't hold aggro traditionally.

Luckily, spells like slow and snare have had their aggro components greatly reduced, so that white damage is enough to pull aggro off of a shaman or druid - but damage spells still pose a problem.

[Snaggles]

A monk with a tstaff will put out decent dps and each proc is roughly 400 hate. In most situations they can hold aggro like an average warrior.

Since shamans don’t pull with slow (outside places where singles are possible), that cast isn’t capped to like 1 hate point so it’s just that issue of the monk peeling off them. Then again, a short duration root solves that issue. As a shaman I’ve definitely thrown a low level root, malo (if needed), slowed and by the time it’s faded the monk is well ahead.

It’s more of a pins and needles situation. As you mentioned rogues (especially 55+ and geared) or casters should be careful with nukes. Then again, most casters should be waiting to like half health before unloading.

[Wakanda]

I also don't really consider late stage P99 to be very classic. I don't think it was classic for most Monks to even have a T-staff or their Epic. I remember when Green was a new server, my Monk friend stayed awake for 48 hours at Frenzied Ghoul and still didn't get their FBSS. For me that is more of a classic monk experience.

I feel like people in this thread are mainly talking about players who have access to the best twink gear in the game or BIS everything at max level, which is fine. I was just confused about what the conversation was actually about.

I personally can't afford to drop 45K on a Tranquil Staff and another 25K on a Cloak of Flames for a twink character (at this point I'm assuming the Monk is also going to have spent another 40K on a fungus tunic lol). I know a lot of other players can though. By this same standard though I've seen Paladin twinks doing pretty bonkers damage with a massive dragonclaw shard etc.

[kjs86z2]

I also don't really consider late stage P99 to be very classic. I don't think it was classic for most Monks to even have a T-staff or their Epic. I remember when Green was a new server, my Monk friend stayed awake for 48 hours at Frenzied Ghoul and still didn't get their FBSS. For me that is more of a classic monk experience.

I feel like people in this thread are mainly talking about players who have access to the best twink gear in the game or BIS everything at max level, which is fine. I was just confused about what the conversation was actually about.

I personally can't afford to drop 45K on a Tranquil Staff and another 25K on a Cloak of Flames for a twink character (at this point I'm assuming the Monk is also going to have spent another 40K on a fungus tunic lol). I know a lot of other players can though. By this same standard though I've seen Paladin twinks doing pretty bonkers damage with a massive dragonclaw shard etc.

All a monk needs is IFS and/or Ada club + SoS and they are perfectly serviceable. Everything above this tier of gear is for pure raid DPS + solo artist stuff.

MDS sucks...I used one on my paladin at first. 2 hander mo' betta.

[Drueric]

monks are better in duos and trios where everyone's DPS matters

ill take a paladin in a full group any day, make the monk pull

In regular groups I prefer to have the paladin pull. They can lull and root mobs to break up the groups and they better suited to tank spell casters.

Monks are not better tanks. They are good at avoiding damage, but if they get hit they go down quick. Monks are good for pulling in some places though, but they need sow and buffs to make it work.

As for agro, it really depends on weapon speed/haste and procs.

For my own monk toon, I dont like using 2 handed monk staffs, they are just way too heavy.

[kjs86z2]

In regular groups I prefer to have the paladin pull. They can lull and root mobs to break up the groups and they better suited to tank spell casters.

Monks are not better tanks. They are good at avoiding damage, but if they get hit they go down quick. Monks are good for pulling in some places though, but they need sow and buffs to make it work.

ya ok bud

[Drueric]

I also don't really consider late stage P99 to be very classic. I don't think it was classic for most Monks to even have a T-staff or their Epic. I remember when Green was a new server, my Monk friend stayed awake for 48 hours at Frenzied Ghoul and still didn't get their FBSS. For me that is more of a classic monk experience.

I feel like people in this thread are mainly talking about players who have access to the best twink gear in the game or BIS everything at max level, which is fine. I was just confused about what the conversation was actually about.

I personally can't afford to drop 45K on a Tranquil Staff and another 25K on a Cloak of Flames for a twink character (at this point I'm assuming the Monk is also going to have spent another 40K on a fungus tunic lol). I know a lot of other players can though. By this same standard though I've seen Paladin twinks doing pretty bonkers damage with a massive dragonclaw shard etc.

I agree on this. Green is not a classic experience. Maybe it was once, but its not now.

[Keebz]

A monk with a tstaff will put out decent dps and each proc is roughly 400 hate. In most situations they can hold aggro like an average warrior.

That proc is 520 hate (120dd + stun) and 30 is the sweet spot for delay on 2h. You can rip aggro on raids with that thing if you get a string of procs. You definitely hold aggro better than an average warrior with one of those.

[Keebz]

In regular groups I prefer to have the paladin pull. They can lull and root mobs to break up the groups and they better suited to tank spell casters.

Unless it's a really dangerous split, I agree a lull or root is going to be 500% more straightforward than letting a monk of dubious skill do flop rng. The best way, however, is to avoid splitting entirely and just mez in camp. Either way, once that shit is broken, make the monk do the running around.

[Snaggles]

That proc is 520 hate (120dd + stun) and 30 is the sweet spot for delay on 2h. You can rip aggro on raids with that thing if you get a string of procs. You definitely hold aggro better than an average warrior with one of those.

Math adds up, agreed and Ty for the correct. It’s underrated for sure…the stun even helps mitigate incoming damage.

[Crede]

That proc is 520 hate (120dd + stun) and 30 is the sweet spot for delay on 2h. You can rip aggro on raids with that thing if you get a string of procs. You definitely hold aggro better than an average warrior with one of those.

All off a KC trash drop that out dps’s all epic weapons and does well into velious/luclin. What do you think the logic was there?

[Snaggles]

The non-VP Kunark staves certainly allowed the monk to easily land in the 2nd dps spot behind rogues. Making the stun irresistible seems excessive. They didn’t even provide that to procs on the pally or sk epic.

[Vexenu]

I think someone on the dev team was really, really into the whole "martial artist fighting with a staff" thing and they went overboard itemizing Monk 2HBs in Kunark. Note that Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace (which featured Darth Maul and his iconic double-bladed lightsaber) was released approximately a year before Kunark, and the impressive martial arts techniques demonstrated by Ray Park in the film likely inspired one or more of the devs.

The Tranquil Staff is absolutely a bonkers item though, to the extent that if you just threw some stats and HP on it, no one would have complained if it was the Monk Epic. At the very least, you'd expect it to be VP loot or drop off Trakanon. But the fact that that such a ridiculously powerful item drops off an XP mob in KC is totally bizarre and inexplicable, just one of the many oddities of classic EQ.

[Crede]

Yea I think they got the mitigation part right but not the dps part. id be curious if anyone would play a monk for their pulling/tanking abilities if they got rid of their dps to where they were even below bards.

[Snaggles]

I’m no historian but improvised weapons from feudal Japan have been put on an incredibly high pedestal due to the martial arts/ninjification fad in the 80’s and 90’s. Specifically, the Karate strip mall dojos and movies which originated or profited from it. To date one of the most used tropes is the iconic “staff training scene” aboard every sci fi ship or bunker. It literally makes no sense.

I feel they could have pushed the lore a bit for the monks. It would have been more realistic to make the tranquil staff a short spear or mace. I wish they had spent more time justifying the dps with weapons like that, or fine tuning avoidance over mitigation. I can kind of squint at monks avoiding more attacks on the battle field (like an innate version of the warrior Evasive discipline) but any real blow landed to someone in a robe isn’t going to flinched off like someone in plate armor.

I’m sure that Velious stage monks are a product of being ignored in classic and overcompensated for. Without spells you have to make the pure melees do something well for class balance (fun and effectiveness).

It’s a great class and I’m glad accurate the era. I totally get why people love them and everyone has a monk. They are just a bit trendy for me.

[Danth]

The non-VP Kunark staves certainly allowed the monk to easily land in the 2nd dps spot behind rogues. Making the stun irresistible seems excessive. They didn’t even provide that to procs on the pally or sk epic.

The SK epic proc is not quite unresistable, but close enough most folks aren't going to notice the difference. The resists on raid mobs on P99 is a custom change here (and a rather rude one at that), not classic. Paladin epic was notoriously mediocre in-era. General sentiment was that upgrading Fiery Avenger s little bit was considered "good enough" while everyone else got most of the work.

You're correct about how asiatic combat forms and weapons tend to be massively over-hyped. This isn't just due to the 80/90's era fad, but also stems in part from larger cultural differences. Westerners tend to dismiss old stuff as backwards and useless; the eastern cultures are more apt to treat their past with some veneration. So you have medieval knights being laughed at as little more than barbarians with slightly shapened clubs, and samurais or monks treated like some sort of unstoppable force of nature--both assessments being silly extremes, in opposite directions. In actual reality, prior to Japan closing outside trade, their wealthy class and nobility was happy to import and purchase european armor any chance they had because it was widely regarded as more effective than domestic equivalents.

Dual-wielding is another one of those common fantasy game tropes that barely existed in reality. Or we have studded armor, a complete fantasy which probably originates from the D&D game designers not understanding what brigandine armor was. In the end we can all accept our game for what it is, imperfections and all, because it's still enjoyable regardless. And--ultimately--Norrath is its own world with its own rules, and its history and rules aren't the same as our Earth's.

[Vexenu]

Yea I think they got the mitigation part right but not the dps part. id be curious if anyone would play a monk for their pulling/tanking abilities if they got rid of their dps to where they were even below bards.
Probably not. Might as well just play an SK at that point (which are already superior pullers in skilled hands).

Now, if Monks had something like an offensive/defensive stance they could switch in and out of (higher DPS/less tanky and vice versa) they'd still be played. Their raid and group roles would be preserved but they'd lose some of their solo power (a healthy nerf, IMO, and one that fits well with Monk/martial arts lore of different fighting styles).

[Snaggles]

In the end we can all accept our game for what it is, imperfections and all, because it's still enjoyable regardless. And--ultimately--Norrath is its own world with its own rules, and its history and rules aren't the same as our Earth's.

Agreed on all accounts :) .

[Goregasmic]

All off a KC trash drop that out dps’s all epic weapons and does well into velious/luclin. What do you think the logic was there?

At first they thought people wouldn't camp items and just roam dungeons. Don't know how much they course corrected that one for kunark but it is possible they thought being ultra rare would make it... ultra rare. Here every monk has one because the servers have been farmed for 8+ years and every monk and their brother knows about it.

The counter point is back on live it wasn't uncommon to find 30-50 people in KC so it would end up dropping a fair bit but there was also 2500 people online every day so they'd be spread pretty thin anyway. I remember IFS back then were pretty cheap all things considered because not many monks cared about 2 handers, most people had like a wu stick and a KD and the monks with a lot of money had the AC/Epic+SOS combo. A KD went for 2k during luclin back then IIRC. Today I don't think people even bother looting them.

[Keebz]

KDs were even more expensive than that. Cane of the Tranquil was 1k. People really liked dual wielding. NGL tho dual KDs were sweet.