Proposed change to the 15 man claim rule

[Tiggles]

This rule should be updated to properly reflect the increase of difficulty of new raid mobs.


A mob such a Trakanon or any of the Kunark dragons can not be properly slain with a group of just 15.


I propose the unspawned mob claim be increased to 25 or 30. This is unfair for a guild who has 30+ members waiting to kill a mob when the group of 15 can camp it then slow roll an attempt when other members trickle in.

This to me seems like an issue they may come to a head in the future now that there are 3 guilds who can take down Trakanon.

Thank you for your time


With Respect,

Tiggles

[Harrison]

That's easy to say when you are in a zergforce of 100+ easily daily.

[Intellect]

This rule should be updated to properly reflect the increase of difficulty of new raid mobs.


A mob such a Trakanon or any of the Kunark dragons can not be properly slain with a group of just 15.


I propose the unspawned mob claim be increased to 25 or 30. This is unfair for a guild who has 30+ members waiting to kill a mob when the group of 15 can camp it then slow roll an attempt when other members trickle in.

This to me seems like an issue they may come to a head in the future now that there are 3 guilds who can take down Trakanon.

Thank you for your time


With Respect,

Tiggles


lol

[Tiggles]

That's easy to say when you are in a zergforce of 100+ easily daily.

Please take those comments to the rants and/or flames we are in server chat my good man and we must act accordingly.

Though I do appreciate bringing this thread back up to the top of the list as to better grab the GM's attention.



Thank you

[Uthgaard]

The 15 has a built in caveat. It has to be on the spawn point. If all a guild can muster is 15, those 15 have to be capable of completing the encounter, or die trying. There are rules against dragging it out. Parking your zerglings on the spawn point with the competition isn't the brightest of strategies.

[Nyrod]

This rule should be updated to properly reflect the increase of difficulty of new raid mobs.


A mob such a Trakanon or any of the Kunark dragons can not be properly slain with a group of just 15.


I propose the unspawned mob claim be increased to 25 or 30. This is unfair for a guild who has 30+ members waiting to kill a mob when the group of 15 can camp it then slow roll an attempt when other members trickle in.

This to me seems like an issue they may come to a head in the future now that there are 3 guilds who can take down Trakanon.

Thank you for your time


With Respect,

Tiggles

um since when? lol

[quido]

It has to be on the spawn point.

I'm wondering if to claim an unspawned raid mob under the 15 man rule you have to have the people directly over the spawn or if just aggro range is sufficient.

The current stickied rules say "If you choose to lay a claim to an unspawned raid npc, your raid must be at the npc's spawn point with sufficient force. (within aggro range of the npc when it spawns, with at least a 15 member raid party). e.g. (inside Nagafen's Lair)"

We all know that anything past the door into Naggy's lair will aggro him. It seems to me that there wouldn't be the "within aggro range" disclaimer if it wasn't meant to include those within aggro range but not directly over the spawn. Do we have any people who are capable of being over the spawn but not within aggro range?

I personally thought the 15man thing was abolished sometime around the new year for "FTE period" but I guess I'm remembering things wrong. So I'm just trying to help clarify what I guess is the current standing ruleset since I haven't heard anything about the 15man rule in any sort of decision for a very long time.

Thanks in advance for your input!

[Uthgaard]

I will never ever advocate or encourage any nitpicking over any rules. My suggestion is to stay on the spawn point, because the likelihood of us not giving a shit is directly proportional to the questionability of the situation.

[Skope]

The 15 has a built in caveat. It has to be on the spawn point. If all a guild can muster is 15, those 15 have to be capable of completing the encounter, or die trying. There are rules against dragging it out. Parking your zerglings on the spawn point with the competition isn't the brightest of strategies.

what's to stop a guild from sacrificing 15 people so they first shot when it spawns? have another 30-50 sitting away from aggro range and ready to charge in. it's not FTE but modified poopsock, and instead of the 1min roll call you have a 1min "get ready to engage before they lose aggro and all 15 die" call.

My suggestion is to stay on the spawn point, because the likelihood of us not giving a shit is directly proportional to the questionability of the situation.

that's not true. you'll always give a shit, and that's been sort of the problem. the redp99 guys are in general a bunch of clueless douchemonkeys but they do have a very legitimate point: why do you guys care so damn much? I know it's your sandbox and blablabla, but there's a reason there's five-hundred billion rules in place and guides/GMs to enforce them all, so your giving a shit is more directly proportional to how many/which rules weren't abided by. Maybe that's what you're getting at, but for certain situations you have to ponder why there are any rules at all. I guess it's not as bad as it once was where you practically needed a P99 raiding guidebook.pdf, but it's still too cluttered and senseless

[Uthgaard]

You don't have to like it. You just have to do it.

[Skope]

I know it's your sandbox and blablabla

[quido]

I will never ever advocate or encourage any nitpicking over any rules. My suggestion is to stay on the spawn point, because the likelihood of us not giving a shit is directly proportional to the questionability of the situation.

I can totally understand and appreciate that. I know that policing our drama takes a lot of effort and that oftentimes people are childish enough to not really be worthy of a thorough consideration. At the same time it would be really nice for everyone to know the specifics so that we can prepare and act accordingly. I have no interest in further burdening the server staff with issues pertaining to raid engagements - knowing what is and isn't implied by a particular rule is crucial to employing tactics that are beyond reproach. I'm not trying to rules-lawyer anyone here; I just don't want to get rules-lawyered myself. I'm sure people could put together a few more worthy questions and concerns deserving of clarification.

[Uthgaard]

I thought I did answer it. At least it doesn't seem at all open ended to me. You're either within aggro range or you're not, but 50 people spread out a fair distance away have no way of knowing whether they're in aggro range or not, unless the furthest person away gets aggro first. So take the common sense approach, and stay reasonably close to the spawn point. I can't see any reason to try to push that limit.

[Zereh]

I don't recommend trying to lawyer rules with the rule lawyer ~

[quido]

Yeah believe me, I want our actions to be as clear-cut as possible. I only asked for further clarification because the newly endorsed "on the spawn" is starkly different than "within aggro range." Now I know! And knowing is half the battle.

I have zero interest in sitting on any spawns, but I have infinity interest in killing every raid mob possible. I personally liked things better when engagements didn't happen instantly and there was a hot minute or two of people logging in and both guilds vying for the target. The Trakanon that popped at a terrible hour this morning and took 30 minutes to die was about a million times less absurd than parking people on spawn points.

Was I dreaming though when I read a post around the new year saying something to the effect of "previous raid rules are abolished, all raid mobs are FTE now period"? I mistakenly tried to apply this new FTE rule (or so I thought) to a camp back in April as can be seen in http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34783&page=2. Here Rogean seems to agree that raid mobs became FTE period, but I don't know, maybe he didn't really mean that much. I can't find the post where this was originally stated. I honestly had no reason to read the raid rules sticky for a number of months and really believed until very recently that unspawned raid mobs were FTE too. I thought the 15man rule was a complete circus from an enforcement point of view - conflicting and/or doctored screen shots, people boxing to get numbers first, people fucking with zones to crash out some or all of those fifteen - and that that's why things went to FTE. FTE is pure, simple, fair, and easy to enforce.

However dumb we were to play TR's game and go park on the spawn is meager when compared to how completely absurd and stupid the 15man rule was when it was actually invoked in the raiding world.

[Aadill]

I don't recommend trying to lawyer rules with the rule lawyer ~

Rulegaard

[Uthgaard]

I've said this with regard to a number of rules. If you think a different suggestion is better: think through the consequences of the changes, make the suggestion, and show that it is both better for the players and has fewer gray areas for enforcement. I would recommend a single post in the petition forum over a discussion thread about it because those just turn into 30 page pissing matches of shit that's been said over and over.

What's currently in place was made from player suggestions. It's worked well enough so far, so I wouldn't expect drastic changes from that. People cry for things to be changed on knee-jerk reactions to temporary butthurt all the time. But a reasonable explanation of why something should be changed with good reason would be at least discussed.

[quido]

Thanks for the input Uthgaard! I look forward to possibly contributing to some constructive rule changes in the future.

[Skope]

Uthgaard, the current rules, even though FTE in spirit, always had the silly 15 to engage and could be abused poopsock style. It isn't a matter of "the rules have been fine thus far so why butthurt?" but rather that only 1 guild had enough 60s to do the content and now months later you're getting the same crap you had before: an influx of higher levels wanting the same content and you know this better than most. There is no perfect fix, but you're seeing the flaws in this system that have been around for a long time and are only now coming to fruition

[Tiggles]

Thank you Uthgaard for posting in my thread and clarifying things. It was very helpful and shed some light on a very tricky situation.

I know having two opposing guilds trying to rules lawyer each other can cause the staff untold headaches and I hope in the very near future we can work out the specifics on the raid rules and have both guilds understand them so we can play and compete on this server in a fair and better yet non-staff involved manner.

I see no reason why any TMO should post on this thread anymore now that we have an official route to pursue in the petition forums.


Thank you again for your hard work and dedication to this project the server as a whole appreciates it.

-Tiggles

[Arillious]

This thread is the best evidence for the need for pvp in the end game. It not only elimates this entire situation, it actually turns it into a positive by promoting more competition.

[Messianic]

This thread is the best evidence for the need for pvp in the end game. It not only elimates this entire situation, it actually turns it into a positive by promoting more competition.

Until hacking (because the incentive to have some small edge over players in other guilds increases eve more) and accusations of hacking (moreso than now) starts. Sorry, even if PvP solved any problems, people would create more just so they could fight over it.

[Arillious]

Until hacking (because the incentive to have some small edge over players in other guilds increases eve more) and accusations of hacking (moreso than now) starts. Sorry, even if PvP solved any problems, people would create more just so they could fight over it.

PvP <> Hacking.

On a server such as this where it takes forever to level to the high end, very few hard core players would risk hacking and having to start over again. The reason why hacking has been rampant on previous EMU systems is because the exp rate was significantly higher so having to start over again wasnt a huge deal.

[Extunarian]

PvP <> Hacking.

On a server such as this where it takes forever to level to the high end, very few hard core players would risk hacking and having to start over again. The reason why hacking has been rampant on previous EMU systems is because the exp rate was significantly higher so having to start over again wasnt a huge deal.

That's why almost no one over level 50 has been banned for hacking!! :rolleyes:

[karsten]

This rule should be updated to properly reflect the increase of difficulty of new raid mobs.


A mob such a Trakanon or any of the Kunark dragons can not be properly slain with a group of just 15.


I propose the unspawned mob claim be increased to 25 or 30. This is unfair for a guild who has 30+ members waiting to kill a mob when the group of 15 can camp it then slow roll an attempt when other members trickle in.

This to me seems like an issue they may come to a head in the future now that there are 3 guilds who can take down Trakanon.

Thank you for your time


With Respect,

Tiggles

http://i51.tinypic.com/o8yq9w.jpg

[Arillious]

That's why almost no one over level 50 has been banned for hacking!! :rolleyes:

Well, if they were caught then the system worked right? I doubt they'll be spending weeks to level to 50 and then hack again.