Why isn't the guildwar function in game?

[Knuckle]

Thought this was classic EQ, or is this 'Selective Classic EQ Experience Project 1999 sort of'

[ojamajoe]

Feel free to submit the code for this! It was a feature I always liked, and which SOE could never be bothered to fix after Luclin...

[Knuckle]

I would honestly level my monk to 60 if we had some TMO vs TR guildwar action going.

[JenJen]

i want to see videos of knuckle beating people up - please make this happen.

[Knuckle]

i want to see videos of knuckle beating people up - please make this happen.

move to florida and get me to drink excessive amounts of alcohol, then refuse to get me another beer and talk about how we don't spend any time together.

[Bardalicious]

Just another indicator that Rogean and crew will never release a PVP version of P99.

In all honesty I think /guildwar was one of the best features of original EQ. I recall being in some mostly dwarven / good guild that would always guild war against a mostly dark elven / evil guild. Fun times were had when people still got into the game like that.

[Vendar]

i am so glad someone else is talking about /guildwar

/guildwar = problem solved. which problem? all problems.

big bad guild socking trak? /guildwar
Amelinda banned u for being an ass? /guildwar
cant connect to server? /guildwar






ok but for real, fix /guildwar please. trak windows make me wanna /wrist

<3

[Bardalicious]

Assuming TR would step up to the plate and accept a guildwar challenge from TMO in the first place. Unlikely at best :mad:

[Vendar]

one problem at a time please sir :p

[Phallax]

Assuming TR would step up to the plate and accept a guildwar challenge from TMO in the first place. Unlikely at best :mad:

Whats the TMO:TR member ratio? like 5:1?

[Dantes]

Let's not be ignorant now. Guild wars would not solve any poopsock problems. Guild A would then just bitch about being ganked and claim that Guild B was cheating somehow.

However, they are fun as hell. My guild used to war all the time, it was good times. I'd like to see this feature just because it brings back fond memories.

[citizen1080]

/guildwar = /jihad

[dusk883]

/guildwar = /heaven

...and I don't have a player over level 16...

[Rais]

Yes of course this will solve everything. Adding in a command where 2 guildleaders of rival guilds aiming to kill 1 target have to agree with, will really work.

Dumbasses.

[JenJen]

bischy so negative!!

[karsten]

I wholly support guildwar if there'd be a way to implement it here -- my understanding is that it's somehow difficult to code and as such hasn't been yet. I'll reiterate though that it'd be a great way to solve the trak problem

[Uthgaard]

People throw this idea around every so often, but really, how likely is anyone to actually use it? A couple guilds might try it for a week, but then it would be 'lol no u', and probably go unused. If I honestly believed that anyone would use it, I'd take a look at it. I'm all for having fun things to do while content development trudges along.

[SearyxTZ]

would absolutely love to see /guildwar


I played on Solusek Ro initially in 1999 and our all-rogue guild (Dark Hour) used it all the time.

I also think it would be just enough to bring in a lot of players who are on the fence about playing due to no PvP

[Uthgaard]

I suppose it could be a way to let a pvp server coexist within the blue server. But don't expect me to balance the shit.

[Uthgaard]

Ok, yeah, I think this is actually not a bad idea at all. Limited to a single guild being at war with another guild, that wouldn't be too hard really. If it were set up as a table that crossed two guild lists and managed who was at war with who, it has a lot of potential. Consider guilds of pvp community existing solely for pvp. That would definitely be quite a project though. I'll just let the idea circulate and see what interest exists on the player end for participation.

[Nyrod]

omg yes!

[SearyxTZ]

balance expectations would be nil since it's a completely optional feature

(and since the players who want it the most are basically like recovering alcoholics who would accept a Jersey Turnpike shot and like it)

[JenJen]

sounds brilliant

[Mellor]

Yes please

[Rais]

I know a lot of people in other guilds would enjoy this. Hell even I would. It takes away from the non stop farming, and adds more to the game. If people don't want to be part of it, they can guildremove themselves till the "time period" is done with.

I know many guilds have a 2nd guild tag laying around, so it's not like it would be "gtfo of the guild, were here to slay bitches". We can tag them in the 2nd guild and pick them back up when its over with.

Also having only 2 guilds at a time have this option, seems ehhh to me. Maybe up to 4 guilds at a time, seems reasonable.

Dooooettttt

[Dannermax]

I seriously cant see whats so fun about PvP. Maybe someone can tell me that. Think it would be the same arm wrestling. I always lose!

[Polixenes]

Consider guilds of pvp community existing solely for pvp. That would definitely be quite a project though. I'll just let the idea circulate and see what interest exists on the player end for participation.

Not that I am remotely qualified to comment on what makes for a good PvP scene, but I could see the RP as well as the purely tactical appeal of having a couple of guilds existing solely for the purposes of PvP with each other. Good vs Evil perhaps?

But I imagine the appeal of PvP for its true afficionados is the ability to jump out and ruin the day of pretty much any other person on the server whom they are able to ambush. Guild based PvP might not be their cup of tea.

Didn't SOE try a Teams-based server at some point? I wonder if the success or otherwise of that server might give some insight as to how well a guildwar function might work in P99?

[Intellect]

If you want to pvp go to a pvp server. All that is going to happen is Uthgaard is going to put in hours of work and then either it will go unused or it will be used for a short period of time then abandoned just like live.

[PurelyElf]

I would very much like this. Consider the amount of players/guilds from pvp servers that play here. Several of the guilds created here are remade RZ guilds.

[Knuckle]

Trying to argue about PVP in this thread is purely comedic, this is a classic feature of every blue server on everquest.

That being said, the merits of this feature are limited only to ones creativity. Can definitely solve guild disputes in this manner if both guilds are willing. Can roleplay with it. As far as PVP only guilds, I wouldn't hold my breath, it's too much of a /duel like function to maintain enough momentum. Not to mention that PVP with no balancing on p99 is going to be grossly imbalanced.

[Atmas]

I seriously cant see whats so fun about PvP. Maybe someone can tell me that. Think it would be the same arm wrestling. I always lose!

I enjoyed PvP on live because:

1. It broke up the montony of grinding XP.
2. It added an enhanced sense of adventure because wandering and exploring was more than just avoiding high level mobs.
3. Defeating a player is often more exciting and interesting than defeating a programmed encounter.
4. There was none of that nonsense of 2 or more guilds sitting around a spawn point waiting to tag something.
5. It greatly enhanced the sense of accomplishment in progression when you had to defeat people and encounters.

[vinx]

Trying to argue about PVP in this thread is purely comedic, this is a classic feature of every blue server on everquest.

That being said, the merits of this feature are limited only to ones creativity. Can definitely solve guild disputes in this manner if both guilds are willing. Can roleplay with it. As far as PVP only guilds, I wouldn't hold my breath, it's too much of a /duel like function to maintain enough momentum. Not to mention that PVP with no balancing on p99 is going to be grossly imbalanced.

^^ this

its definitley fun for the 2 guilds involved, but it wont solve long term problems like trak or any other area, but it will be fun for a few encounters!
(until one is obv superior and the other stops accepting the requests)
and as mentioned.. its fun for roleplay on the lesser guilds
I know a lot of people in other guilds would enjoy this. Hell even I would. It takes away from the non stop farming, and adds more to the game. If people don't want to be part of it, they can guildremove themselves till the "time period" is done with.
This happened even on a pvp server (the teams server VZ, someone mentioned)
people would either not log in, play alts or deguild till the war was over then retag.

[vinx]

Consider guilds of pvp community existing solely for pvp. That would definitely be quite a project though. I'll just let the idea circulate and see what interest exists on the player end for participation.

You could add in that element, or expand the feature for guilds that did go to war
so that it not only pvp enabled the 2 guilds by checking guild status. but maybe just go red for the req time period?
it would open up a possibility for a red guild to form (which has been attempted 2-3 times on P99 already)

that might be asking to much.. and might make guilds reconsider even trying /guildwar if they know there is a griefer guild waiting for them to use it

imo, a red guild formed for this purpose would see ALOT of downtime between uses of the /guildwar function
and also, if might cause alot of QQ when a third party is involved.
I mean they cant really whine when they agree with another guild.
but i cant see the majority of players wanting to go full blown pvp for the alotted time period.

Thanks for lookin into it uthgaard!

[nalkin]

What happend to those pvp events in POT that you could go to from the EC tunnel. Those had alot of potential to be fun.

[Vendar]

Ok, yeah, I think this is actually not a bad idea at all. Limited to a single guild being at war with another guild, that wouldn't be too hard really. If it were set up as a table that crossed two guild lists and managed who was at war with who, it has a lot of potential. Consider guilds of pvp community existing solely for pvp. That would definitely be quite a project though. I'll just let the idea circulate and see what interest exists on the player end for participation.

win lose or draw, just that its being considered makes me a happy panda

<3

[Anarchrist]

YES TO /Guildwar !! having spent my entire EQ career on live playing on Sullon Zek reading this could be implemented made my day. I personally would use this all the time, in fact ide like to be apart of or create a pvp guild that would with any luck always be at war with another at all times no exceptions! it would be awesome to see this go beyond a guild vs guild situation and allow for multiple guilds to be involved with alliances and what not :)

[Messianic]

I love how Knuckle clearly started this as a troll and it turned out being a decent idea and is being considered...

[Nyrod]

you obviously dont know knuckle

you act like it will hurt your gameplay lol

its only bringing to light how many people there really are that want a taste of pvp but dont have a solid, stable, populated option

[Tewaz]

When the raid mob pops, the whole zone should turn PVP. That is classic right there.

[Messianic]

you obviously dont know knuckle

you act like it will hurt your gameplay lol

its only bringing to light how many people there really are that want a taste of pvp but dont have a solid, stable, populated option

Are you referring to me? I called it a decent idea...I don't see how I said it would hurt my gameplay...I just pointed out that it was a blatant troll from the start

[PurelyElf]

bump imo (sorry)

[eastadam55]

It deserves to be bumped.

[semvo]

And I wish items were not able to be linked in chat, like the good old classic days. You had to type out stats manually. The best.

[Fourthmeal]

Grief Greenie

[Tewaz]

Welcome Back Fourthmeal. Go go double decker taco!

[Fourthmeal]

Welcome Back Fourthmeal. Go go double decker taco!

Huzzah!! Another Hero of the Shell!

[Supaskillz]

I think it would be fine to implement this, but if the top guilds used it, which I am sure they would not, it would only reinforce the we need more players than them mentality

[Marglar]

I think it would be fine to implement this, but if the top guilds used it, which I am sure they would not, it would only reinforce the we need more players than them mentality

zerging does not equal victory in eq pvp. far from it. there is a lot of strategy and micromanagement and target focusing that goes on in successful group pvp. most zergs can't execute it well enough - I've been on both sides of the fence many times.

[PurelyElf]

Ok, yeah, I think this is actually not a bad idea at all. Limited to a single guild being at war with another guild, that wouldn't be too hard really. If it were set up as a table that crossed two guild lists and managed who was at war with who, it has a lot of potential. Consider guilds of pvp community existing solely for pvp. That would definitely be quite a project though. I'll just let the idea circulate and see what interest exists on the player end for participation.

How are you, Uth?

[stormlord]

/guildwar is an affront to everything I stand for and a slap in the face.

I feel so strongly I'll troll this thread if need be until I get my point across.

/guildwar = wtf **** in my noodles

[Macken]

I don't understand your point.

[Fourthmeal]

/guildwar is an affront to everything I stand for and a slap in the face.

I feel so strongly I'll troll this thread if need be until I get my point across.

Because I am bad***.

wut

[stormlord]

wut
That's how much sense /guildwar will make.

[Fourthmeal]

That's how much sense /guildwar will make.

/guildwar would make the big guilds actually compete for mobs without trainign each other.

[Macken]

would require being a man is the only problem.

[Fourthmeal]

would require a sac is the only problem.

:eek::eek::eek:

[Tasslehofp99]

How do we know that this command doesnt work? I've used it in game just joking around, and it seemed to work...although the person who I challenged to a guildwar didnt accept.

[EkireiTheNecro]

Just to piss you off Knuckle...that's why!

[Tonomar]

It's a blue server, that's why it's not in. Downy question, bro.

[Secrets]

Actually, it is a classic PVE feature. The command exists as do the structures, they are just not able to be accessed at all.

That's why they aren't implemented. They don't send anything to the server in their current form.

[Stormhowl]

It's a blue server, that's why it's not in. Downy question, bro.

Except it existed as a function to be used on blue servers. There is no purpose to /guildwar if it only existed on red servers.

If we HAD /guildwar, we could at least have some sort of co-existing PVP environment on this server so that we could at least get the Red99er's to stop trolling Server Chat because then they'd have their precious PvP if they started two opposing guilds/teams and actually organized things on their own (shocking, what a concept!)

[Fourthmeal]

Except it existed as a function to be used on blue servers. There is no purpose to /guildwar if it only existed on red servers.

If we HAD /guildwar, we could at least have some sort of co-existing PVP environment on this server so that we could at least get the Red99er's to stop trolling Server Chat because then they'd have their precious PvP if they started two opposing guilds/teams and actually organized things on their own (shocking, what a concept!)

Very well put good sir.

[eastadam55]

Could also stop bitching about boss rotations or w.e, and let some good ol' pvp settle it.

[Tonomar]

Except it existed as a function to be used on blue servers. There is no purpose to /guildwar if it only existed on red servers.

If we HAD /guildwar, we could at least have some sort of co-existing PVP environment on this server so that we could at least get the Red99er's to stop trolling Server Chat because then they'd have their precious PvP if they started two opposing guilds/teams and actually organized things on their own (shocking, what a concept!)

Uh, guildwar pvp would be nothing like a straight up pvp server. I don't expect a bluebie to know the difference though, it's okay little buddy.

[eastadam55]

Uh, guildwar pvp would be nothing like a straight up pvp server. I don't expect a bluebie to know the difference though, it's okay little buddy.

level 50s hunting down lvl 10s sounds like fun.

[Fourthmeal]

level 50s hunting down lvl 10s sounds like fun.

SZ@war

[Stormhowl]

Uh, guildwar pvp would be nothing like a straight up pvp server.

I never, ever, at any point in my post, insinuated that /guildwar was anything like a pure PvP server. Nice try though.

You would do well to remove the ad hominem and strawman fallacies from your posts before responding again.

[Harrison]

Using PVP to settle PVE disputes on a blue server is fucking retarded.

[Fourthmeal]

Using PVP to settle PVE disputes on a blue server is fucking retarded.

It'd be fun to see the big guilds go at it though. Think of all the server drama that it would produce.

[Stormhowl]

Using PVP to settle PVE disputes on a blue server is fucking retarded.

Since the alternative of "working together for both guilds mutual benefit" is out of the question (giant e-peens will not allow it, it would seem), the only remaining alternative is to... waste the time of GMs/Guides/Server staff with every little petty childish dispute over PvE?

PvP to settle PvE disputes on a blue server sounds like the best solution for the problem, because then the top guilds can just "have it out" and fight each other for the spawns rather than having to annoy the server staff, and by extension everyone else, with childish drama about training and who was first to engage and what not.

Why you think that's "fucking retarded", I have no idea. Are YOU offering up reasons why /guildwar would NOT be a feasible solution to some of the drama that plagues these forums/this server?

It'd be fun to see the big guilds go at it though. Think of all the server drama that it would produce.

Probably not any more drama than we already see. It'd just be a different kind of drama. :P

[KB_Trader]

Harrison sounds scurrrrred

[stormlord]

/guildwar would make the big guilds actually compete for mobs without trainign each other.
If they train each other then a GM can rape them. That's one of the purposes for having a GM - to enforce the peace. Having them kill each other to keep the peace is antithetical on a blue server. Additionally, how many players do you think /guildwar will cause to ragequit or bitch to the GM's about something? How much more time will the GM's have to work to confirm or deny the claims of different players? I'd anticipate increased traffic.

Aside from that, why aren't there any discord players? Red players? There's the option in-game right now to do that. I guess /guildwar may fit some inner desire to spill blood, but there're already ways in-game to do that. Unless it's easy like 1-2-3 then I have to think there're better things for the coders to work on.

So if someone steps forward and says this is easy like 1-2-3 then I'd be supportive of it. But if not, everybody here should keep in mind that pvp players will always be a minority...

Why let a minority bother us? Tell them to /duel or talk to the priest of discord. Somebody can get creative and make a red guild and then their arch nemesis can do the same. Solve a lot of issues...

If you're high level, for example, make a low level red guild. Twink em. Eventually somebody will oppose you for fun and just to talk sh**. That's what pvpers do. They get a thrill from raping each other. Try it.

And to increase your recruitment pool, give recruits some twinkies. NoDrop sh** is best because then they can't just transfer it to their blue character. But I think most recruits would have fun for a while until they got killed a dozen times. Then I think they'd transfer everything and maybe not come back again. But the issue boils down to: if you can offer them something that's tempting, then they may stay red just to have it.

[PurelyElf]

If they train each other then a GM can rape them. That's one of the purposes for having a GM - to enforce the peace. Having them kill each other to keep the peace is antithetical on a blue server.

Aside from that, why aren't there any discord players? Red players? There's the option in-game right now to do that. I guess /guildwar may fit some inner desire to spill blood, but there're already ways in-game to do that. Unless it's easy like 1-2-3 then I have to think there're better things for the coders to work on.

I'd turn my book in, but then I wouldn't be able to heal or buff anyone that is still blue. Which would make my cleric all but useless.

[Fourthmeal]

red99 can't come soon enough

[stormlord]

I'd turn my book in, but then I wouldn't be able to heal or buff anyone that is still blue. Which would make my cleric all but useless.
Get some glasses buddy; or reread. Make a red guild. Then you can heal each other.

It would be like a challenge. You can still trade with blue players ya know. With enough time, red guilds would start popping up to compete against you just for kicks. (Well, this is what I think would happen.)

[Stormhowl]

If they train each other then a GM can rape them. That's one of the purposes for having a GM - to enforce the peace.

Except the point of putting /guildwar in is so they can settle the disputes themselves with force, rather than wasting the GM's time with yet another raid dispute every time Trakanon pops. Pretty sure the server staff has stated at least once somewhere on the forums that they're tired of dealing with the raid drama.

The last thing we need is bitter server admins.

[Knuckle]

I Make The Best Threads.

[Kobias]

Except the point of putting /guildwar in is so they can settle the disputes themselves with force, rather than wasting the GM's time with yet another raid dispute every time Trakanon pops. Pretty sure the server staff has stated at least once somewhere on the forums that they're tired of dealing with the raid drama.

The last thing we need is bitter server admins.

IMO, this doesn't solve anything. If I was a guild leader, I wouldn't waste my raid time waring with another guild that inevitably solves nothing. Mostly because I don't HAVE to accept. The disgruntled party is probably going to be the challenger, and that's because they didn't get Trak--Well, they're not getting a war either.

If you want something more fun: everytime Trakanon spawns, Sebilis turns into a pvp zone. =p

...but, why stop there? Do CT/Fear too =P

[Stormhowl]

IMO, this doesn't solve anything. If I was a guild leader, I wouldn't waste my raid time waring with another guild that inevitably solves nothing. Mostly because I don't HAVE to accept. The disgruntled party is probably going to be the challenger, and that's because they didn't get Trak--Well, they're not getting a war either.

This entire discussion/line of thinking was working under the assumption both parties used /guildwar. There's no need to repeatedly and annoyingly state in every reply "assuming both parties accept".

[Kobias]

This entire discussion/line of thinking was working under the assumption both parties used /guildwar. There's no need to repeatedly and annoyingly state in every reply "assuming both parties accept".

Sure. If they both accept. I'm just pointing out in reality it wont. It didn't happen in real EQ over bosses, and only Red99 people are going to push for it here.

My point is just that you're suggesting it'll solve Trakanon problems by letting people fight for it, which wont work. This isn't an attack on you personally, as I think /guildwar feature would be really cool. I had fun doing it in EQLive, until a level 50 came and killed me while I was 17 :p. I just don't see it being used for the reasons you suggest it would be.

[abedog]

1. It broke up the montony of grinding XP.
2. It added an enhanced sense of adventure because wandering and exploring was more than just avoiding high level mobs.
3. Defeating a player is often more exciting and interesting than defeating a programmed encounter.
4. There was none of that nonsense of 2 or more guilds sitting around a spawn point waiting to tag something.
5. It greatly enhanced the sense of accomplishment in progression when you had to defeat people and encounters.

^ ^

- Would also revitalize server pop and just a more exciting experience overall imo...but then again I have a sac. :rolleyes:

[Kobias]

- Would also revitalize server pop and just a more exciting experience overall imo...but then again I have a sac. :rolleyes:

Indeed. I would be able to gravity flux + falling death XP loss in PVP again! That was always exciting :p

I'm kidding of course, but this used to happen in the Arena ALL the time :P Sunday Afternoon was PVP day on our server; lots of people came there consistently until sometime after Velious.

I get the sense there is a loud vocal minority supporting Red99. I think it's a great idea, but servers cost time and money so I can understand the delay/reluctance.

I just don't want to see /guildwar feature being advertised as a means of making a some kind of psuedo-Red99 here using a couple of guilds, since the effort toward a true Red99 loses steam.

Red99 => Look around every corner. I'm coming for you :P
Blue99 w/ Guildwar => There's a guy coming around the corner..oh wait, he is blue.

[Stormhowl]

Sure. If they both accept. I'm just pointing out in reality it wont. It didn't happen in real EQ over bosses, and only Red99 people are going to push for it here.

My point is just that you're suggesting it'll solve Trakanon problems by letting people fight for it, which wont work. This isn't an attack on you personally, as I think /guildwar feature would be really cool. I had fun doing it in EQLive, until a level 50 came and killed me while I was 17 :p. I just don't see it being used for the reasons you suggest it would be.

Yes well, that's all irrelevant to a discussion on a hypothetical situation anyways. I assumed people were talking about the potential uses for /guildwar, rather than discussing whether it would actually be used or not.

I just don't want to see /guildwar feature being advertised as a means of making a some kind of psuedo-Red99 here using a couple of guilds, since the effort toward a true Red99 loses steam.

Citation needed. I see no evidence one way or another that such is the case. :P

[PurelyElf]

Get some glasses buddy; or reread. Make a red guild. Then you can heal each other.

It would be like a challenge. You can still trade with blue players ya know. With enough time, red guilds would start popping up to compete against you just for kicks. (Well, this is what I think would happen.)

I already have glasses, thank you!

I've turned my book in on too many blue servers, though. And I know how it would go. Even if an entire guild turns in their books, that cuts that guild off from the rest of the server to a certain extent. No pick up groups (unless maybe you could be dps classes that don't need outside buffs/healing), no porting/buffing random people for money..

it's just a headache and gimps your character.

[Kobias]

Yes well, that's all irrelevant to a discussion on a hypothetical situation anyways. I assumed people were talking about the potential uses for /guildwar, rather than discussing whether it would actually be used or not.


Don't assume :P

I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so fair enough on that. Just voicing my overall opinion of guildwar based on the Original post on page1.

It's not irrelevant though, since hypothetically speaking, a guildwar for guilds fighting over Trakanon would be pointless =p

The overall goal of this thread is to come up with a compelling reason (or to spark interest in) that Devs should implement this, other than "classic". Trak isn't one of them.

I could see Guildwars being used in GM events; such as Team-based Level-1 Gnome H2H Brawls or something. Heh. But not to settle contested spawn conflicts.


Citation needed. I see no evidence one way or another that such is the case. :P

Tags.
+Obvious time of developing this. It's not simple, having looked at it myself.
> Needs a new DB Table: Guildwars -- Persist wars beyond restarts.
> Needs editing the attack-able code (which is rather lengthy and full of IFs already, and in multiple places).
> Needs to send a RED PVP player tag to opposing guilded players so they can visually determine a guildwar is in-place. But, not appear to be PVP red to those not in a guildwar (EQ Did this).

I'd rather devs not spend time working on a feature for (probably primarily) Red99 supporters, in an effort to please that crowd, when they could instead just make the Red99 server that they want.

I'm not trying to suggest that it's either /Guildwar feature OR Red99. But, both are for the same crowd, so It's really up to you for figuring out which you'd rather have. Mainly, /guildwar is the cop-out solution, to bringing more PVP to Blue99. Admittedly, both would be great.

[SearyxTZ]

From a dev perspective, implementing /guildwar is FAR less risk/effort than doing a red server. The two aren't even comparable.

It would placate a lot of the "red crowd" without bringing the risk of sapping population from P1999 and requiring lots of staff/overhead for a server that would probably cap out at around ~50% of what P1999 pulls.

Don't get me wrong - I'd fucking love a red1999 server - but that is the reality of the situation.



Guildwar was a feature of classic blue server EQ. Maybe people didn't use it on every blue server, but I can vouch that we used it plenty on my blue server and it made the game way more fun. It is a very clean and hands-off way of providing a PvP option.

[mokfarg]

I don't PvP but if it was classic I say go for it