Claw of Lightning or Rogue Epic for offhand?

[Dundrige]

I really can't decide! Help!

[Cecily]

Ragebringer's ATK boost makes it a lot better than it looks. And as much as I hate stat sticks in weapon slots, have you seen the stats on it?

STR: +20 DEX: +10 STA: +10 AGI: +10 HP: +100
SV DISEASE: +10 SV MAGIC: +20 SV POISON: +20
1 : Increase Attack Speed by 40% 2 : Increase AC by 9 3 : Increase ATK by 40

To allow the assassin to slay a prince, and fight his way back out, a fell blade was crafted. It was small enough to conceal under a garment and yet large enough to strike a mortal blow through armor. Aided by vile Teir'Dal enchantments, it is much more fearsome than it appears.

[Samoht]

Do you have access to another 41% haste item? Are you weapon swapping ragebringer for backstabs?

[Dundrige]

Do you have access to another 41% haste item? Are you weapon swapping ragebringer for backstabs?

I'm thinking of going Vyemm's Fang as primary, and either rogue epic or claw for secondary. Those two would be my haste item.

[Samoht]

okay, then definitely use claw off hand and swap in ragebringer main hand to backstab

[Dundrige]

okay, then definitely use claw off hand and swap in ragebringer main hand to backstab

So still worth getting all three? What if you had to choose only two? What combination would you do?

[Samoht]

vyemm's dagger and claw can be harder to obtain, get ragebringer guaranteed and then wait and see which of the others you get first

[DeathsSilkyMist]

According to my DPS calculator, a Rogue with 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base against a mob around level 60 (non-raid mob) does the following DPS:

1. Vyemm's Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 80.5 DPS without Backstab.

2. Vyamm's Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 77 DPS without backstab. This inlcudes the + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 72 DPS without backstab. This includes the + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

You'll want to swap Ragebringer to your primary hand for backstabs if you are using Vyemm's fang.

Ragebringer + Claw of Lighting is probably the cheapest DKP-wise. It is up to you how much you want that ~10% autoattack DPS boost by getting Fang + Claw.

Personally I think having Ragebringer in Secondary is too much work to swap it back to Primary for backstabs every time. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary is my suggestion.

[Samoht]

According to my DPS calculator, a Rogue with 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base against a mob around level 60 (non-raid mob) does the following DPS:

1. Vyemm's Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 80.5 DPS without Backstab.

2. Vyamm's Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 77 DPS without backstab. This inlcudes the + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 72 DPS without backstab. This includes the + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

You'll want to swap Ragebringer to your primary hand for backstabs if you are using Vyemm's fang.

Ragebringer + Claw of Lighting is probably the cheapest DKP-wise. It is up to you how much you want that ~10% autoattack DPS boost by getting Fang + Claw.

Personally I think having Ragebringer in Secondary is too much work to swap it back to Primary for backstabs every time. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary is my suggestion.

OP, please ignore this self-absorbed narcissist and the useless information he adds to every thread. He's proven to be wrong in all of his shitty theories, but he won't stop trying to spread the shit to every single thread. I don't even know what it means to have Ragebringer in secondary and weapon swap. That's not how it works at all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP, please ignore this self-absorbed narcissist and the useless information he adds to every thread. He's proven to be wrong in all of his shitty theories, but he won't stop trying to spread the shit to every single thread. I don't even know what it means to have Ragebringer in secondary and weapon swap. That's not how it works at all.

Can you please stop derailing threads with off-topic nonsense? Nobody cares about your baseless opinions. They have been proven wrong multiple times, you are just spamming threads.

Did you read the title of the thread? OP was thinking about using Ragebringer in offhand. If they do that, they would want to swap Ragebringer to primary hand for backstabs, which wouldn't be advisable, as I said in my first post.

[Samoht]

OP was thinking about using Ragebringer in offhand. If they do that, they would want to swap Ragebringer to primary hand for backstabs

This is the most ridiculous thing you've ever suggested. Nobody in the history of vyemm's fang has ever done this.

Quit spreading your bullshit to every fucking thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is the most ridiculous thing you've ever suggested. Nobody in the history of vyemm's fang has ever done this.

Quit spreading your bullshit to every fucking thread.

You really need to learn how to read. I didn't say OP should use Vyemm's Fang in Primary and Ragebringer in secondary. I advised against it, because it is easier to swap Ragebringer with Fang if Ragebringer isn't in your secondary hand.

You are just trying to attack me in every thread, and are making any excuse you can, even when it is made up.

Everybody can read what I said and see you are just making things up. Why do this?

[Samoht]

You really need to learn how to read. I didn't say OP should use Vyemm's Fang in Primary and Ragebringer in secondary. I advised against it, because it is easier to swap Ragebringer with Fang if Ragebringer isn't in your secondary hand.

You are just trying to attack me in every thread, and are making any excuse you can, even when it is made up.

And you really need to learn how to STFU. You've contributed nothing to this thread except by muddying the waters by even bringing up using ragebringer off hand and swapping it to main hand for backstabs.

Why do you insist on spreading your bullshit nonsensical theories to every fucking thread? You are such a useless piece of human excrement. Waste of fucking oxygen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And you really need to learn how to STFU. You've contributed nothing to this thread except by muddying the waters by even bringing up using ragebringer off hand and swapping it to main hand for backstabs.

Why do you insist on spreading your bullshit nonsensical theories to every fucking thread? You are such a useless piece of human excrement. Waste of fucking oxygen.

Nobody cares about your opinions of me. Nobody wants you to spam threads over and over with obvious lies. Just quit while you are behind. Reposting the DPS numbers so OP can make an informed decision on their DKP spending. As I said in my first post, I wouldn't advise using Ragebringer in offhand:

According to my DPS calculator, a Rogue with 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base against a mob around level 60 (non-raid mob) does the following DPS:

1. Vyemm's Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 80.5 DPS without Backstab.

2. Vyamm's Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 77 DPS without backstab. This inlcudes the + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 72 DPS without backstab. This includes the + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

You'll want to swap Ragebringer to your primary hand for backstabs if you are using Vyemm's fang.

Ragebringer + Claw of Lighting is probably the cheapest DKP-wise. It is up to you how much you want that ~10% autoattack DPS boost by getting Fang + Claw.

Personally I think having Ragebringer in Secondary is too much work to swap it back to Primary for backstabs every time. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary is my suggestion.

And nobody wants to hear about your useless DPS calculator! The rogue BIS setup is long established, with or without your help (definitely without). You're not contributing anything to this thread by spreading your misinformation. Your DPS calculator is wrong. You are wrong about ragebringer offhand. You are not good at this game. You know nothing about rogues. Go away.

I have not spread misinformation. You are just lying about me and my DPS calculator. Replying here so you hopefully stop spamming the thread. Nobody wants to hear your unhinged rantings with no basis in reality. They didn't work in the last few threads you spammed. They won't work here either.


Why do you pretend that you know anything about the game when you clearly don't? Why do you need to insert your nonsense into every single thread? Your posts are like intrusive advertisement. People don't want to see advertisements for viagra or diabetes medicine as much as they don't want to hear about your DPS calculator.

I am sorry you don't understand how forums work. There are other people on these forums besides yourself, and they can post. Feel free to code review my DPS calculator at any time. It's open source. You haven't done it, so your opinion on my calculator is baseless. It is clear you are just trolling, and you keep ruining your reputation by trolling.

and the most terrible advice I've ever seen.

Samoht somehow thinks showing that the autoattack DPS for Fang + Claw is higher than Ragebringer + Claw of Lightning is... bad advise? Samoht thinks telling OP to use Ragebringer for backstabs is... bad advise? Not sure how that works.

okay, then definitely use claw off hand and swap in ragebringer main hand to backstab

[Samoht]

Nobody cares about your opinions of me. Nobody wants you to spam threads over and over. Just quit while you are behind. Reposting the DPS numbers so OP can make ab informed decision on their DKP spending. As I said in my first post, I wouldn't advise using Ragebringer in offhand:

And nobody wants to hear about your useless DPS calculator! The rogue BIS setup is long established, with or without your help (definitely without). You're not contributing anything to this thread by spreading your misinformation. Your DPS calculator is wrong. You are wrong about ragebringer offhand. You are not good at this game. You know nothing about rogues. Go away.

I have not spread misinformation. You are just lying about me and my DPS calculator. Replying here so you hopefully stop spamming the thread. Nobody wants to hear your unhinged rantings with no basis in reality. They didn't work in the last few threads you spammed. They won't work here either.

Why do you pretend that you know anything about the game when you clearly don't? Why do you need to insert your nonsense into every single thread? Your posts are like intrusive advertisement. People don't want to see advertisements for viagra or diabetes medicine as much as they don't want to hear about your DPS calculator.

I am sorry you don't understand how forums work. There are other people on these forums besides yourself, and they can post. Feel free to code review my DPS calculator at any time. It's open source. You haven't done it, so your opinion on my calculator is baseless.

Some people post. Some people (you) fill threads with spam, advertisement, and the most terrible advice I've ever seen.

Samoht somehow thinks showing that the autoattack DPS for Fang + Claw is higher than Ragebringer + Claw of Lightning is... bad advise? Samoht thinks telling OP to use Ragebringer for backstabs is... bad advise? Not sure how that works.

Everybody already knows you're not sure how it works. That's why I'm perplexed to why you're still posting here.

What you've just described is the rogue BIS setup, that's why I suggested it on the first page, and you're telling me I'm wrong somehow? Wtf gtfo moron.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What you've just described is the rogue BIS setup, that's why I suggested it on the first page, and you're telling me I'm wrong somehow? Wtf gtfo moron.

My DPS calculator shows Fang + Claw is better autoattack DPS. We both agree. OP can decide if the ~10% extra autoattack DPS is worth the DKP for Fang + Claw vs. Epic + Claw.

OP should be using Ragebringer for backstabs. We both agree on this too.

There is no need for you to keep posting like this when we are in agreement.

jfc why do u ppl always do this.

Ask Samoht.

[sajbert]

jfc why do u ppl always do this.

[Samoht]

My DPS calculator shows Fang + Claw is better autoattack DPS. We both agree. OP can decide if the ~10% extra autoattack DPS is worth the DKP for Fang + Claw vs. Epic + Claw.

I never agreed to this. Quit putting words in my mouth. You can barely make sense of the words that come out of yours.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never agreed to this. Quit putting words in my mouth. You can barely make sense of the words that come out of yours.

Where is the disagreement?

[Cecily]

Not reading that shit, but are you scholars actually telling people to swap in backstabs? What the fuck. No. It's not worth it for performance and is a massive hit to QoL. The only weapon swapping worth the effort on P99 is primal for avatar procs. Offhand your epic and choose your favorite NToV weapon for main.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not reading that shit, but are you scholars actually telling people to swap in backstabs? What the fuck. No. It's not worth it for performance and a massive hit to QoL. The only weapon swapping worth the effort on P99 is primal for avatar procs. Offhand your epic and choose your favorite NToV weapon for main.

I've seen rogues who are trying to get top parses swap mainhand for better backstabs. It just depends on how much OP wants to win at parses.

[Cecily]

Thank you for the anecdote. There's a lot.... of variation in damage numbers for end game raiding. Have your full set of buffs + an epic bard and avatar is how you win parses. Not channeling autism for 5 min fights.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for the anecdote. There's a lot.... of variation in damage numbers for end game raiding. Have your full set of buffs + an epic bard and avatar is how you win parses. Not channeling autism for 5 min fights.

You are correct there is always variation in parses. It's up to OP to decide if they want to swap main hand for better backstabs or not. I won't judge either way.

[shovelquest]

One of the things I cant get over mentally with parsers is, is it counting when I start attacking? Or when a mob hits me first when its coming up with DPS numbers?

Like not yours, but all of them. If im fighting 10x things that are all fighting me, can i trust the DPS scores for all 10 of those things after they are all dead?

Or does it like give me a low score for a mob that i agroed and then had to kill 9 other things first, before engaging with it myself?

[Cecily]

Your EQ client has a log file and a parser parses them, sectioning off fights when certain parameters are met. X hp to count as a fight which you can set to reduce noise. Fight ends when there's a slain by message and I think there's a timer, too. If you're fighting a bunch of things with the same name or people are using the same charm mobs, the parser is too dumb to distinguish them. In the scenario you mentioned, I think it starts counting when someone hits a thing and it'll time out if people stop. In any case, that's a bad scenario for getting useful parse information.

[Zuranthium]

I was given a 25/50 dagger by a GM for my good deeds. Peregrin Parsealot always swaps for his backstabs.

[Cecily]

Lol bullshit

[Snaggles]

Not reading that shit, but are you scholars actually telling people to swap in backstabs? What the fuck. No. It's not worth it for performance and is a massive hit to QoL. The only weapon swapping worth the effort on P99 is primal for avatar procs. Offhand your epic and choose your favorite NToV weapon for main.

This.

On live I used a Vyemm with offhand Rage. I never parsed it in 2000 but it just felt better. If I had a rogue on p99 I’d parse the hell out of this to make sure. Depending on the fight if in/outs are called I’d probably swap those (rage MH) for a higher average backstab cycle.

Anyone who can get a Vyemm can get a claw if they really want to try out. I suspect it’s a lateral upgrade (unless you are hover-swapping the rage for the Vyemm and keeping the claw in place).

IMHO, for a rogue replace the main hand first (any top 3 work damn well). Then get a primal. Don’t listen to me though…I’m not a rogue here. Listen to people who play rogues. Or create a ranger so I can give you bad advice for that class :D .

[Cecily]

Primal spear -> Mrylo + Ragebringer is BIS for QoL. Tabithaa who was and is afaik the best geared rogue on Green bought a Vyemm's Fang to run main hand and used Mrylo to swap for backstabs, with epic offhand. Conclusion was it can parse higher, some of the time, and overall was not worth the effort. Vyemm alone can outparse Mrylo, some of the time. Not worth using over Mrylo.

As I mentioned, most of your parse comes down to buff preparation. Also having gear that will almost certainly cost more of your life than the value it provides (AoBx3, Dain Ring, Mrylo/Vyemm). Then it's just RNG. Procing avatar quickly makes or breaks your parse. And Claw of Lighting is a DKP drain. Just use your epic. It's better.

[Cecily]

Anyone who can get a Vyemm can get a claw if they really want to try out. I suspect it’s a lateral upgrade (unless you are hover-swapping the rage for the Vyemm and keeping the claw in place).
Basically. In my experience, Claw = Ragebringer and Vyemm's Fang = Mrylokar's Dagger. The claw's better ratio has to compete with -40 ATK on every main hand, off hand, and backstab attack. It balances out to a degree, but it's lateral at best. Fang rogues perform just as well as Mrylokar rogues, but the lifetap DoT the best QoL boost you'll ever get on a rogue. It's a constant 30 hp regen buff that softens AoEs and keeps you patched up.

[Snaggles]

Basically. In my experience, Claw = Ragebringer and Vyemm's Fang = Mrylokar's Dagger. The claw's better ratio has to compete with -40 ATK on every main hand, off hand, and backstab attack. It balances out to a degree, but it's lateral at best. Fang rogues perform just as well as Mrylokar rogues, but the lifetap DoT the best QoL boost you'll ever get on a rogue. It's a constant 30 hp regen buff that softens AoEs and keeps you patched up.

All that makes sense. The bummer is swapping in/out the fang for the epic (or myro) there is the lag while the client adapts to the slower delay. Same reason people don’t cycle in a weighted axe, but obviously an extreme version of that.

People do a lot of silly things for stats. The Ragebringer has a bucket of hps, 20sv magic, and attack. I feel like people rush to bag it because it looks like they are more elite. If your offhand does roughly 20-30% of your total damage you have to make massive offhand gains to see the effect on the parse. I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze even just by the napkin math.

For the tryhards out there, I’d pick up a Silver Whip of Rage. You can casually swap that into to either slot since the rune lasts like half an hour. You also might be in a situation where you are called to MA for the raid or need to tank something where it would be a noticeable boost in durability. In our guild these are stupidly cheap compared to a claw.

[Cecily]

Absolutely love that whip on my ranger. It's a hard sell on a rogue, but I toyed with the idea of just running that offhand for ToV / HoT clears for passive runes. There's really no way to use it without taking a big DPS hit. The fun thing is when you get really experienced on rogue, you realize your contribution to the raid is more you being there than anything else. The difference between a rogue running 80% dps and 99% dps efficiency is effectively no difference at all. You maybe add 2-3 seconds onto an encounter by not tryharding. Rogues are like bees. One hurts, but it takes a lot to kill something.

I don't quite remember the details, but TMO rogues back on Blue were pretty against weapon swapping as well. I think their testing came to the conclusion that the lag you mention interfered with the mainhand swing timer, which I believe ended up being the currently equipped weapon determining the next swing's timer, making Efreeti War Spear a *real* bad choice for swaps. Even with Ragebringer, you're going to be tacking a significantly higher delay timer onto your next swing. Also it's a huge source of potential user error. It's one more thing taking attention when I'd like to be watching for flips or my HP or that pesky enrage thing.

[kjs86z2]

The only swapping you should be doing is from your primal proc to Weapon X + Epic.

Vyemm whip is a stretch. Just chug worts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Looking at my DPS calculator with Backstab now included. Here are some DPS values on a standard mob and a raid mob. The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lighting Secondary - 121 DPS including Backstab and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary - 122 DPS including Backstabs and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary - 125 DPS including Backstab, no swap-in with Ragebringer.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lighting Secondary - 80 DPS including Backstab and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary - 82 DPS including Backstabs and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary - 82 DPS including Backstab, no swap-in with Ragebringer.

[Cecily]

It's like they're the same number or something.

[Jimjam]

create a ranger so I can give you bad advice for that class :D .

See - Snaggles is right- their very first piece of ranger advice is already bad - under no circumstances create a ranger!!

Jk jk

[Jimjam]

Dsm, what does your calc say the dps of just the ragebringer in primary including bs and + attack? Disable any dual wield, etc

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dsm, what does your calc say the dps of just the ragebringer in primary including bs and + attack? Disable any dual wield, etc

Just as a quick note, the DPS calculations in my previous post did not have backstab double attack. I realized I forgot to push the absolute latest code. That is fixed now. The DPS ratios between the weapons wouldn't really change, the numbers will just go up.

Here is Ragebringer and Fang with backstab double attack and without dual wield. The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 109 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 110 DPS with Backstab.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab.

It looks like the lower Backstab damage from Fang is offsetting Fang's better autoattack DPS. Ragebringer does do significantly more backstab damage. It looks like Ragebringer is doing around 80k damage via backstab, vs 45k damage via Vyemm Fang against the level 50 mob.

This is probably why swapping Ragebringer to mainhand for backstabs is a good idea when using Fang. I can't imagine the small loss in autoattack DPS from the swap would offset the higher backstabs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just to make sure there is no confusion, the 45k backstab number vs. The 80k backstab number is largely due to Ragebringer being slower, and thus more backstabs are done within the same number of swings tested for both weapons.

Vyemm Fang had like 270 Backstabs vs. 400 from Ragebringer. 270 / 400 = 0.675 x 80,0000 = ~54k backstab damage from Ragebringer vs. ~45k backstab damage from Fang in the same timeframe.

Without backstab Ragebringer does 45 DPS vs Fang's 57 DPS against the level 50 mob. 9000 extra backstab damage from Ragebringer over 850 seconds (the total fight time using Fang) is around 11 DPS. This is how Ragebringer catches up. Ragebringer loses around 12 DPS from a worse ratio, but gains around 11 DPS from a better backstab.

[Samoht]

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab.

This is not what parses from end game encounters reflect at all. Your calculator is wrong. Even Thornstinger (12/19) parses even with Ragebringer (15/25) against red con targets like vindi/aow. DPS against junk targets is insignificant. Fix your shit or quit bringing it up.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is not what parses from end game encounters reflect at all. Your calculator is wrong. Even Thornstinger (12/19) parses even with Ragebringer (15/25) against red con targets like vindi/aow. DPS against junk targets is insignificant. Fix your shit or quit bringing it up.

You missed the part where I said those numbers were without backstab double attacks. Remember that this is without duelist as well.

Also there is a range of DPS values you can get on an individual parse. I am showing the average DPS over 75 parses.

With backstab double attacks, Fang Primary + Ragebringer secondary is doing 96 DPS against a 60+ raid mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI. The range of possible DPS values in a single parse is from 90 DPS to 105 DPS without duelist. Also remember that to get a precise parse equivalent number-wise, you need the same AC value as the mob on P99.

It would be great if you provided some parses.

[Zuranthium]

You missed the part where I said those numbers were without backstab double attacks.

You said "Here is Ragebringer and Fang with backstab double attack"

But you'll need to do different AC parses anyway. Try at 550 and 900 AC.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said "Here is Ragebringer and Fang with backstab double attack"


You are correct, I meant to say without dual wield. My interpretation of his comment is he thinks the DPS was too low, but obviously Rogues don't parse without offhand weapons. Those parses were without dual wield.


But you'll need to do different AC parses anyway. Try at 550 and 900 AC.

I'd need a specific mob parse (ideally a set of parses) so we could determine the AC. Here is a simple example using data from another poster:

I promised to do more testing and may revisit this in a new thread comparing the Meljeldin to the BoF+Claw. It ended up being a pain proccing Avatar before every parse but at least I feel the test was as accurate as could be with roughly 60,000 hps (10x shady kills) with each setup.

PS: sorry for the formatting. Also, I didn’t use the BoF since I would have to edit out the 100dd as it would skew the testing. This NPC has Dain-like mitigation.

Offhand Test: Swiftwind vs Claw
Shady Swashbuckler, level 45 npc, 6k hps, max hit 114
Snared to start fight, dark cloak of sky + Yeli gloves (91% self haste)
When fleeing would face npc so not to bypass npc's defensive skills

Silver Whip of Rage + Swiftwind + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1489 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 130 46 241 65 24
Shady 2 139 43 263 68 22
Shady 3 128 46 248 68 24
Shady 4 127 47 250 68 24
Shady 5 137 43 269 68 22
Shady 6 118 51 253 68 23
Shady 7 112 53 234 68 25
Shady 8 137 44 274 68 22
Shady 9 122 49 259 65 23
Shady 10 129 46 251 67 23
Shady Set 1279 47 2542 68 23

Silver Whip of Rage + Claw of Lightning + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1448 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 114 52 245 65 24
Shady 2 134 45 272 65 22
Shady 3 111 54 249 65 24
Shady 4 127 47 272 60 22
Shady 5 122 49 258 65 23
Shady 6 138 43 267 62 22
Shady 7 118 50 254 65 23
Shady 8 133 45 268 65 22
Shady 9 126 47 253 63 23
Shady 9 129 46 268 65 22
Shady Set 1252 48 2606 65 23


Summary: basically 47 dps vs 48 dps, win goes to the claw.

As you can see, a top geared ranger with buffs was doing like 47 DPS to Shady Swashbuckler.

My DPS calculator shows that Shady has around 720ish AC, 150 AGI, and 200 Defense Skill (Defense caps at 200 under level 50, and Shady is 45) to get this low DPS effect.

With this same setup my DPS calculator also shows 47 DPS for the Swiftwind Offhand and 48 DPS for the Claw offhand.

[Zuranthium]

You're assuming you know exactly how AC works on p99. Better make sure, and also to be completely sure we'd need to know the actual AC of an NPC in game, which is something only devs would be able to say. Have they stated a number anywhere, for an NPC? Without having exact info, it's possible the AC of NPC's on p99 are all custom (unlikely, given the amount of work it would have taken to change every NPC in game, although they've definitely made custom changes to certain NPC's).

But anyway, you should still run the parses at 550 and 900 AC and see what the difference is compared to the 400 AC parse you did.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're assuming you know exactly how AC works on p99. Better make sure, and also to be completely sure we'd need to know the actual AC of an NPC in game, which is something only devs would be able to say. Have they stated a number anywhere, for an NPC? Without having exact info, it's possible the AC of NPC's on p99 are all custom (unlikely, given the amount of work it would have taken to change every NPC in game, although they've definitely made custom changes to certain NPC's).

But anyway, you should still run the parses at 550 and 900 AC and see what the difference is compared to the 400 AC parse you did.

You can solve for AC without a database dump from P99. As an easy example, 100 + X = 300 is solvable. The answer is 200. When using a set of parses like Snaggle's parses, we know all of the variables already except for Mob AC. We know Warriors gain 5 Defense Skill per level, so Defense Skill would be capped at 200 at level 45 for Shady.

I already have P99 parses with multiple classes and weapon sets attacking the same mob. Using the same defensive stats for that mob, my DPS calculator matches the P99 parses. I am not sure how you can claim that is pure coincidence.

I posted these example parses in my DPS calculator thread. My code is open source too.

[Zuranthium]

We know Warriors gain 5 Defense Skill per level, so Defense Skill would be capped at 200 at level 45 for Shady.

NPC's don't necessary follow the same rules applied to PC's. We know they do in many cases, but that doesn't mean it's always true.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

NPC's don't necessary follow the same rules applied to PC's. We know they do in many cases, but that doesn't mean it's always true.

As I said before:

I already have P99 parses with multiple classes and weapon sets attacking the same mob. Using the same defensive stats for that mob for all of those P99 parses, my DPS calculator matches the P99 parses. I am not sure how you can claim that is pure coincidence.

I posted these example parses in my DPS calculator thread. My code is open source too.

[Zuranthium]

I already have P99 parses with multiple classes and weapon sets attacking the same mob.

So? That's one mob in game. It says nothing about the possible custom changes added to various other mobs. The point being, don't assume the stats something has because of its level.

[bcbrown]

As I said before:

I already have P99 parses with multiple classes and weapon sets attacking the same mob. Using the same defensive stats for that mob for all of those P99 parses, my DPS calculator matches the P99 parses. I am not sure how you can claim that is pure coincidence.

I posted these example parses in my DPS calculator thread. My code is open source too.

I just re-skimmed that thread and didn't see these parses with "multiple classes and weapon sets". It might be helpful in convincing the sceptics (like me) if you collected all your verification/validation parses into a single post in that thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So? That's one mob in game. It says nothing about the possible custom changes added to various other mobs. The point being, don't assume the stats something has because of its level.

The point is I have proven that I can find the defensive values like AC for mobs using my DPS calculator.

Feel free to provide a set of parses like Snaggles for a mob you think is too custom for my calculator.
I just re-skimmed that thread and didn't see these parses with "multiple classes and weapon sets". It might be helpful in convincing the sceptics (like me) if you collected all your verification/validation parses into a single post in that thread.

Its linked in the post in my signature. You didn't read that thread very well the first time either, hence your faulty AC values for a level 45 mob. As I keep telling you, you need to do more than skim.

[bcbrown]

Its linked in the post in my signature.

So this is the entirety of your validation parses?

Sznake vs. Eldak Howlingbear - Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding
Sznake vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Imbued Fighters Staff
Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Frostwrath
Shamwowi vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Blight, Hammer of the Scourge
Shamwowi vs. Corudoth - Spear of Fate

[Zuranthium]

The point is I have proven that I can find the defensive values like AC for mobs using my DPS calculator.

No, you haven't. There are a variety of things that can cause a result.

Again, do a parse against 550 and 800 AC targets. Let's see how well those parses align with in-game raid parses. That would be a good starting point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So this is the entirety of your validation parses?

Sznake vs. Eldak Howlingbear - Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding
Sznake vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Imbued Fighters Staff
Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Frostwrath
Shamwowi vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Blight, Hammer of the Scourge
Shamwowi vs. Corudoth - Spear of Fate

Those are the example parses, yes. I didn't post every single test. Take a look at Corudoth. I used three different classes (Shadowknight, Shaman, and Monk). The Monk is level 52, so there is also level variance. The youtube links have the log data in the descriptions, so you can double check my DPS parses. The one without a video is the Shaman Spear of Fate, that has the logs in the text file.

https://youtu.be/YXh1lQyRZ_A?feature=shared - Monk parse for Corudoth.

No, you haven't. There are a variety of things that can cause a result.

Like what?

[Snaggles]

See - Snaggles is right- their very first piece of ranger advice is already bad - under no circumstances create a ranger!!

Jk jk

Nice try to sneak in a diss to a quickly paging thread! Found it with my tracking skills :D

[bcbrown]

Those are the example parses, yes.

It's great to include logs and essential to include the exact input to the calculator, which you did, but it would be much more convenient to list for each parse the measured DPS and the calculated DPS.

I was curious if I could replicate your results and when I used the listed inputs to the most recent version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ks01nbFy0aSMsGzLI0QshN_QbAn3wRzn/view) of the calculator I got these results:

Sznake vs. Eldak Howlingbear - Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding
552 seconds, 30.28 DPS
Calculator: 30.20, 30.95, 31.77, 31.68, 31.15
Conclusion: High by about 0.5 DPS

Sznake vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Imbued Fighters Staff
553 seconds, 27.5 DPS (without fistweaving)
Calculator: 39.86, 40.14, 37.99, 37.71, 42.70
Conclusion: I must have made a mistake here? This is way off.

Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
531 seconds, 70.25 DPS
Calculator: 78.65, 75.46, 73.99, 76.53, 76.26
Conclusion: Calculator is high by 5-6 DPS

Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Frostwrath
603 seconds, 64.9 DPS
Calculator: 70.50, 72.67, 73.96, 71.73, 74.39
Conclusion: Calculator is high by 5-7 DPS

Shamwowi vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Blight, Hammer of the Scourge
3.23 DoT DPS + 2.9 White Damage DPS = 6.13 DPS
Calculator: 7.06, 6.70, 6.66, 6.37, 6.51
Conclusion: Calculator is high by about 0.5 DPS

Shamwowi vs. Corudoth - Spear of Fate
355 seconds, 32.7 DPS
Calculator: 30.8, 30.24, 31.10, 31.74, 32.17
Conclusion: Calculator is low by about 1 DPS

Does this look correct to you? For the calculator results I reran 5 times and listed the output of "Attacker Predicted Total DPS" each time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's great to include logs and essential to include the exact input to the calculator, which you did, but it would be much more convenient to list for each parse the measured DPS and the calculated DPS.

I was curious if I could replicate your results and when I used the listed inputs to the most recent version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ks01nbFy0aSMsGzLI0QshN_QbAn3wRzn/view) of the calculator I got these results:

Sznake vs. Eldak Howlingbear - Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding
552 seconds, 30.28 DPS
Calculator: 30.20, 30.95, 31.77, 31.68, 31.15
Conclusion: High by about 0.5 DPS

Sznake vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Imbued Fighters Staff
553 seconds, 27.5 DPS (without fistweaving)
Calculator: 39.86, 40.14, 37.99, 37.71, 42.70
Conclusion: I must have made a mistake here? This is way off.

Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
531 seconds, 70.25 DPS
Calculator: 78.65, 75.46, 73.99, 76.53, 76.26
Conclusion: Calculator is high by 5-6 DPS

Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Frostwrath
603 seconds, 64.9 DPS
Calculator: 70.50, 72.67, 73.96, 71.73, 74.39
Conclusion: Calculator is high by 5-7 DPS

Shamwowi vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Blight, Hammer of the Scourge
3.23 DoT DPS + 2.9 White Damage DPS = 6.13 DPS
Calculator: 7.06, 6.70, 6.66, 6.37, 6.51
Conclusion: Calculator is high by about 0.5 DPS

Shamwowi vs. Corudoth - Spear of Fate
355 seconds, 32.7 DPS
Calculator: 30.8, 30.24, 31.10, 31.74, 32.17
Conclusion: Calculator is low by about 1 DPS

Does this look correct to you?

I am glad to see you are trying to learn my calculator, and I knew these exact questions were coming.

For the most obvious parse that was off, which is Monk IFS, I can tell you what you did wrong.

1. You didn't turn off fistweaving. To do so you need to set the offhand weapon damage to 0. Monks will automatically fistweave otherewise with 2h weapons. This isn't particularly user friendly I agree, but that is how it's done. When fistweaving is actually turned off DPS is around 28.

2. For the Corudoth Monk parse IFS will look high has well with fistweaving. This is because if you just use 9/16 in the offhand, it will fistweave way more than I did in the video. In theory you can get two fistweaves per IFS attack with a 16 delay weapon, but I didn't attempt that. I did one fistweave per IFS swing animation. To get the DPS number more accurate, you need to set the offhand to 9/40 to reflect that I did fistweaving in time with the 2h swings.

The Corudoth Parses are also a bit high because I used the autoscaling feature for a level 5. This was for simplicity, to avoid uncessary errors for new users. Corudoth has higher AC than normal.

Corudoth's stats are closer to this:

var mobStats=CreateStatStruct();mobStats.level=5,mobSt ats.class="Warrior",mobStats.scaleDefensiveValuesBasedOnMobLevel=fals e,mobStats.agility=150,mobStats.defenseSkill=25,mo bStats.totalAC=80,mobStats.riposteSkill=0,mobStats .parrySkill=0,mobStats.dodgeSkill=0,mobStats.block Skill=0;

[Lampolo]

You are such a useless piece of human excrement. Waste of fucking oxygen.

Yes he is

[Duik]

Originally Posted by Samoht
You are such a useless piece of human excrement. Waste of fucking oxygen.

I for one, am sick of people beating about the bush and not saying what they really mean.

[bcbrown]

I am glad to see you are trying to learn my calculator, and I knew these exact questions were coming.

For the most obvious parse that was off, which is Monk IFS, I can tell you what you did wrong.

Dude, I'm following your instructions from your validation file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q-6jVqYPFOzKkhtkOvAq6zZ7A6Xdr3_B/view?usp=sharing) don't blame me.

If you're gonna say you've validated the calculator, I'd suggest validating your validation and posting the results in an easy-to-follow format like the one I used above, along with all the settings necessary to replicate it. As of now, without validations that can be replicated it's unvalidated.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude, I'm following your instructions from your validation file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q-6jVqYPFOzKkhtkOvAq6zZ7A6Xdr3_B/view?usp=sharing) don't blame me.

If you're gonna say you've validated the calculator, I'd suggest validating your validation and posting the results in an easy-to-follow format like the one I used above, along with all the settings necessary to replicate it. As of now, without validations that can be replicated it's unvalidated.

You can see that Bcbrown found no obvious flaws. The DPS calculations were within 1 DPS of the parses he checked across different mobs, classes, and weapons. Both the IFS parse and Corudoth parses become correct when he follows my instructions.

He even got to the Corudoth parse running a bit hot, and I gave him the correct stats in response. I purposely did this for Corudoth to see if a person like Bcbrown was able to get this far, and he did. Honestly good job!

I could have spent more time making this user friendly, but honestly trolls dismiss all evidence anyway, regardless of how good it is. It's sadly a waste of time on my side more often than not. You can blame the trolls.

Let me know if you have more questions or concerns.

[Lampolo]

Every thread with dsm in it is just him trying sound correct to a make believe person who doesn't know any better

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Every thread with dsm in it is just him trying sound correct to a make believe person who doesn't know any better

Please stay on topic. Your baseless opinions about me are irrelevant.

[Cecily]

It's pattern recognition, which gets remarkably easy when you've been exactly like that for years.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's pattern recognition, which gets remarkably easy when you've been exactly like that for years.

If you were correct about your pattern recognition, you would be calling out obvious trolls and other posters with bad behavior. I don't see you do that.

The lack of consistency makes it painfully obvious you have a bias towards me, or you are afraid to speak up against other posters. It is always easier to join a pile on.

My post history doesn't lie. Everybody can see I am being attacked when these back and forths start. More posts from people trying to lie about me won't change reality.

[Cecily]

You're right. I've been neglectful of my moderator duties in these threads.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're right. I've been neglectful of my moderator duties in these threads.

I am just asking for consistency. You are clearly trying to moderate me. If you don't want to moderate, there is no need to call out anyone. It isn't a very good look to target one person with accusations, while ignoring other posters who are clearly behaving poorly.

[Cecily]

It's hard to apply the same rigorous standards to everyone when one person is so prolifically wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's hard to apply the same rigorous standards to everyone when one person is so prolifically wrong.

This is simply not true. You are basically claiming if someone has ever been wrong, they can never be right. That is the standard you are applying to me.

No honest discussions can be had this way when people are afraid to speak up for fear of being wrong. One bad post and you can never post again. Being an expert does not mean you can never be wrong either.

I am sure you have been wrong on these forums at least once. You wouldn't want this standard applied to yourself. Don't apply it to others.

[Ripqozko]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/33 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/373 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/1239 (0%)
+ Life: 7/1718 (0%)
```

[bcbrown]

You can see that Bcbrown found no obvious flaws. The DPS calculations were within 1 DPS of the parses he checked across different mobs, classes, and weapons. Both the IFS parse and Corudoth parses become correct when he follows my instructions.

He even got to the Corudoth parse running a bit hot, and I gave him the correct stats in response. I purposely did this for Corudoth to see if a person like Bcbrown was able to get this far, and he did. Honestly good job!

I could have spent more time making this user friendly, but honestly trolls dismiss all evidence anyway, regardless of how good it is. It's sadly a waste of time on my side more often than not. You can blame the trolls.

Let me know if you have more questions or concerns.

You intentionally introduced errors to your validations in order to... catch people trying to confirm the validations? Or are you blaming "the trolls" for why the validations have errors?

It's ok to just admit a mistake. Looks like you did those validations before you fixed the incorrect treatment of the case of dual wielding when the offhand has lower delay than mainhand. And then you didn't re-validate after changing that, so you missed the now-incorrect calculator input for fist-weaving with IFS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You intentionally introduced errors to your validations in order to... catch people trying to confirm the validations? Or are you blaming "the trolls" for why the validations have errors?

It's ok to just admit a mistake. Looks like you did those validations before you fixed the incorrect treatment of the case of dual wielding when the offhand has lower delay than mainhand. And then you didn't re-validate after changing that, so you missed the now-incorrect calculator input for fist-weaving with IFS.

I already told you. For simplicities sake I set Corudoth to autoscale, so first time users would have one less thing they needed to worry about.


The Corudoth Parses are also a bit high because I used the autoscaling feature for a level 5. This was for simplicity, to avoid uncessary errors for new users.


I was hoping someone would ask about it, because that means they actually used the calculator correctly. Good job!

Did you test the validations with my instructions? You keep waffling between claiming you are uninterested in my calculator, while simultaneously trying to claim it doesn't work at every possible turn. I already tested them again with my instructions, they are correct.

It is ok to admit you were wrong about my DPS calculator.

[Jimjam]

Just as a quick note, the DPS calculations in my previous post did not have backstab double attack. I realized I forgot to push the absolute latest code. That is fixed now. The DPS ratios between the weapons wouldn't really change, the numbers will just go up.

Here is Ragebringer and Fang with backstab double attack and without dual wield. The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 109 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 110 DPS with Backstab.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab.

It looks like the lower Backstab damage from Fang is offsetting Fang's better autoattack DPS. Ragebringer does do significantly more backstab damage. It looks like Ragebringer is doing around 80k damage via backstab, vs 45k damage via Vyemm Fang against the level 50 mob.

This is probably why swapping Ragebringer to mainhand for backstabs is a good idea when using Fang. I can't imagine the small loss in autoattack DPS from the swap would offset the higher backstabs.

Thank you for the numbers. How much did adding double backstabs improve the numbers for the dual wield set ups? Comparing the primary to dual wield as it stands makes it look like even a bis secondary only adds like 10% dps?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for the numbers. How much did adding double backstabs improve the numbers for the dual wield set ups? Comparing the primary to dual wield as it stands makes it look like even a bis secondary only adds like 10% dps?

No problem! I can show you some parses with everything.

The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base. No duelist during the fight:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 145 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 143.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 145.5 DPS with Double Backstabs. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

4. Mrylokar's Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 153 DPS with Double Backstabs.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 96.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 97 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 95.5 DPS with Double Backstabs. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

4. Mrylokar's Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 99 DPS with Double Backstabs.

[Duik]

Prolifically wrong.
Imma use that in my next meeting with HR.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's great to include logs and essential to include the exact input to the calculator, which you did, but it would be much more convenient to list for each parse the measured DPS and the calculated DPS.

I was curious if I could replicate your results and when I used the listed inputs to the most recent version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ks01nbFy0aSMsGzLI0QshN_QbAn3wRzn/view) of the calculator I got these results:

Sznake vs. Eldak Howlingbear - Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding
552 seconds, 30.28 DPS
Calculator: 30.20, 30.95, 31.77, 31.68, 31.15
Conclusion: High by about 0.5 DPS

Sznake vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Imbued Fighters Staff
553 seconds, 27.5 DPS (without fistweaving)
Calculator: 39.86, 40.14, 37.99, 37.71, 42.70
Conclusion: I must have made a mistake here? This is way off.

Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
531 seconds, 70.25 DPS
Calculator: 78.65, 75.46, 73.99, 76.53, 76.26
Conclusion: Calculator is high by 5-6 DPS

Bazgek vs. Corudoth - Frostwrath
603 seconds, 64.9 DPS
Calculator: 70.50, 72.67, 73.96, 71.73, 74.39
Conclusion: Calculator is high by 5-7 DPS

Shamwowi vs. Mentrax Mountainbone - Blight, Hammer of the Scourge
3.23 DoT DPS + 2.9 White Damage DPS = 6.13 DPS
Calculator: 7.06, 6.70, 6.66, 6.37, 6.51
Conclusion: Calculator is high by about 0.5 DPS

Shamwowi vs. Corudoth - Spear of Fate
355 seconds, 32.7 DPS
Calculator: 30.8, 30.24, 31.10, 31.74, 32.17
Conclusion: Calculator is low by about 1 DPS

Does this look correct to you? For the calculator results I reran 5 times and listed the output of "Attacker Predicted Total DPS" each time.

I updated the validation sets for easier use. That will fix the IFS and Corudoth parses. I also added in the Monk Corudoth parse.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q-6jVqYPFOzKkhtkOvAq6zZ7A6Xdr3_B/view?usp=drive_link

I apologize for being a bit snappy yesterday, and I do appreciate Bcbrown doing the validation tests. It is simply frustrating when people keep making baseless claims about my calculator over and over without using it. It is good to see Bcbrown has learned to use it.

[Dundrige]

No problem! I can show you some parses with everything.

The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base. No duelist during the fight:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 145 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 143.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 145.5 DPS with Double Backstabs. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

4. Mrylokar's Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 153 DPS with Double Backstabs.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 96.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 97 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 95.5 DPS with Double Backstabs. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

4. Mrylokar's Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 99 DPS with Double Backstabs.

Really! Wow so the ragebringer is totally worth getting it sounds like. So what would Ragebringer primary, Vyemm's Fang secondary bring?!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Really! Wow so the ragebringer is totally worth getting it sounds like. So what would Ragebringer primary, Vyemm's Fang secondary bring?!

Yeah Ragebringer is great, and the cheapest Epic to get too.

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Vyemm Fang Secondary = 144.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.


Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Vyemm Fang Secondary = 96 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

It's going to be slightly worse than Claw offhand, as Claw of Lightning has a slightly better ratio.

[Duik]

All I keep seeing is someone is desperate for validation.

[zelld52]

Really! Wow so the ragebringer is totally worth getting it sounds like. So what would Ragebringer primary, Vyemm's Fang secondary bring?!

Not a Hot take, but use Vyemms primary and RB secondary.

I used to play rogue back in the day, and the idea is that most raid mobs have high AC and you won't be landing many max hits on them anyway - so you use the faster weapon in main hand. Vyemm's has 13 damage and only 17 delay, so you get pretty high backstabs - and you get a very fast weapon for lots of swings per round.

Ragebringer is a must for any high-level target. You simply cannot replace the +40 worn ATK that comes with it.

The worn ATK is much less significant if you're fighting lower level targets - but on raid targets, anything level 60 or higher, you want to Stackickus Attackickus.

[WarpathEQ]

Yeah moral of the story you're never done using the rogue epic as the +ATK boost is always valuable, once you obtain a better primary weapon you will swap in the epic for backstabs generally.

I believe the only weapons that are worth main handing over the epic are (room for debate):
Doze Dagger
Vyemm Fang
Vulak Dagger

With the first 2 generally swapping epic into your main hand for backstabs, and the latter swapping epic into offhand for backstabs (since it already has 15dmg primary, and swapping out offhand should have less impact on overall DPS).

[zelld52]

You will gain more DPS by just wearing the +40 ATK in your offhand rather than swapping it in for backstabs. +40 attack is a gigantic increase in attack. Only time not to wear the rogue epic is on lower level mobs.

[kjs86z2]

and on lower level mobs who cares

just use your damn epic

[Cecily]

Really! Wow so the ragebringer is totally worth getting it sounds like. So what would Ragebringer primary, Vyemm's Fang secondary bring?!


There's 3 points of comparison when evaluating a rogue mainhand. DMG, ratio, and delay. DMG determines maximum backstab cap. Higher is better. Ratio (dmg/del) determines average damage over time with melee swings. Higher is better. Delay determines how often the damage bonus is applied with melee swings. Lower is better.

Vyemm's Fang: It has a moderately high backstab value (13), very high ratio (0.764), and very low delay (17). Grade: B / S / S

Ragebringer: It has a very high backstab value (15), moderately high ratio (0.600), and very high delay (25). Grade: S / B / D

Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance: It has a very high backstab value (15), very high ratio (0.789), and low delay (19). Grade: S / S / A

So, in mainhand, Vyemm's Fang will vastly outperform Ragebringer in terms of melee hits and perform closely in backstabs. There's no situation where Rage mainhand makes sense in that combination. I would advise you to ignore weapon swapping for backstab advice (These people are not experienced rogues from an accredited institution) and use Mrylokar or Vyemm + Epic. Just focus on positioning, your hp, and watching for enrage.

The Rage + Claw combo got hated on by Green players, but it's what I ran on Blue and I did fine for a casual Velious raider. You want a Primal spear and the above setup for the best damage if you're a serious raider.

[Dundrige]

There's 3 points of comparison when evaluating a rogue mainhand. DMG, ratio, and delay. DMG determines maximum backstab cap. Higher is better. Ratio (dmg/del) determines average damage over time with melee swings. Higher is better. Delay determines how often the damage bonus is applied with melee swings. Lower is better.

Vyemm's Fang: It has a moderately high backstab value (13), very high ratio (0.764), and very low delay (17). Grade: B / S / S

Ragebringer: It has a very high backstab value (15), moderately high ratio (0.600), and very high delay (25). Grade: S / B / D

Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance: It has a very high backstab value (15), very high ratio (0.789), and low delay (19). Grade: S / S / A

So, in mainhand, Vyemm's Fang will vastly outperform Ragebringer in terms of melee hits and perform closely in backstabs. There's no situation where Rage mainhand makes sense in that combination. I would advise you to ignore weapon swapping for backstab advice (These people are not experienced rogues from an accredited institution) and use Mrylokar or Vyemm + Epic. Just focus on positioning, your hp, and watching for enrage.

The Rage + Claw combo got hated on by Green players, but it's what I ran on Blue and I did fine for a casual Velious raider. You want a Primal spear and the above setup for the best damage if you're a serious raider.

One last question...

Another item I've been looking at for my secondary is Braid of Golden Hair since they go pretty cheap... So Vyemm Fang + Braid of Golden Hair. Would that be better or worse than Vyemm Fang + Epic?

[zelld52]

One last question...

Another item I've been looking at for my secondary is Braid of Golden Hair since they go pretty cheap... So Vyemm Fang + Braid of Golden Hair. Would that be better or worse than Vyemm Fang + Epic?

Worse. Braid does not have +40 Attack, despite a better ratio - its still offhand so you dont get a swing each round anyway.

Experienced rogues always tell people to keep the epic equipped in offhand permanently because it has a stackable, worn 40 attack on it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One last question...

Another item I've been looking at for my secondary is Braid of Golden Hair since they go pretty cheap... So Vyemm Fang + Braid of Golden Hair. Would that be better or worse than Vyemm Fang + Epic?

Braid offhand will probably be worse due to the loss of the +40 ATK from Ragebringer, assuming the DoT from Braid is resisted. My DPS calculator shows a loss of 2 or 3 DPS without the DoT compared to Ragebringer in offhand. With the the DoT it makes up for that loss. I wouldn't rely on the DoT, especially when raiding.

[Cecily]

One last question...

Another item I've been looking at for my secondary is Braid of Golden Hair since they go pretty cheap... So Vyemm Fang + Braid of Golden Hair. Would that be better or worse than Vyemm Fang + Epic?
They go cheaply for a reason. It's kinda neat, but not really practical for a rogue offhand. Your epic's +40 ATK boosts everything on both hands and backstabs.

[Snaggles]

Yea braid is a weird offhand. You don’t really get the function of a Vyemm whip or another different functional weapon. For dps it’s ok but most stuff in a rogues offhand is passable. The stats and attack on the epic is hard to pass up. The claw still isn’t a landslide win and the ratio on that is crazy.

If you are seeing enough Tunare’s for the braid you are seeing enough for the Thorn. Just save your points for that or the fang, imho (disclaimer: I’m not a rogue).

[Dundrige]

Thank you all so much for all the help. Really appreciate it!


If you are seeing enough Tunare’s for the braid you are seeing enough for the Thorn. Just save your points for that or the fang, imho (disclaimer: I’m not a rogue).

Yeah, the thorn is nice, but when I play with my brother we depend a lot on root for aggro. With that in mind, a DD that breaks root doesn't seem like a smart play, right?

[Cecily]

Yep. That's a potential disadvantage, and the proc makes it harder to control agro. If fires off a few times when you start meleeing, it'll be an unexpected spike similar to a backstab. There's certainly ways around that. Any class with root has better spells to hold agro than root. If you're using it as a CC, stop hitting the thing rooted and it's fine. Otherwise the thorn is a viable alternative to Vyemm or Mrylo. It doesn't perform as well, but it's real competitive when the 15 dmg hits get lucky.

[Snaggles]

It really depends on the price of the thorn in comparison, they tend to be very efficient in DKP to dps ratio. The whip isnt bad, it’s just not great.

I’m with Cecily, if your brother is a shaman flash of light in slot 1 using a GCD is a lot of aggro. Plus, if you can effectively root something it’s likely the the thorn proc will land for nearly full damage each time. I bet on blue cons the thorn punches above its weight class.