On personhood

[F0rmsh1fter]

As per Oxford, the requirements of personhood are as follows: Personhood typically requires certain capacities such as consciousness, self-awareness, rationality, and the ability to engage in moral agency. These traits are often tied to legal rights and moral considerations, making the definition of personhood complex and context-dependent.

Based on these criteria, a large percentage of the population does not qualify, or at least appears not to. Why then do we -predominantly in western countries- operate under the disproportionately equitable assumption that all men are created equal? The allotment of rights as a blanket vs merit based I feel is detrimental to society and our species as a whole.

This is not to say that anyone is objectively superior to anyone else in general (though everyone is better at something than someone else and vice versa. For instance Floyd mayweather could beat me in a boxing match, but I can read a novel), but why is it that person a, who is incapable of critical thought and lacks any sort of moral substance should be afforded the same rights and freedoms as person b who is thoughtful and intelligent? This seems wildly unfair as equity is by definition, but the detriment it brings with it is hardly overcome by any value such a system adds. I’m hoping for meaningful philosophical debate with thoughtful responses, but I fear the majority will be person a type discourse

Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk

[Ekco]

>personhood
https://i.imgur.com/02MrpVJ.png

[magnetaress]

Static, egocentric metrics of personhood are an illusion. Every aspect of personhood is temporary, constantly in flux, and influenced by its environment and past. The sooner this is accepted. The sooner liberation from personhood is achieved.

[Reiwa]

What did Satan say to tempt Jesus in the desert?

What shall it profit a man and all that jazz.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/DPAk4r7IVJMAAAAC/chicago-all-that-jazz.gif

[magnetaress]

What did Satan say to tempt Jesus in the desert?

What shall it profit a man and all that jazz.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/DPAk4r7IVJMAAAAC/chicago-all-that-jazz.gif

That is subjectively a very creepy haircut and eye liner. I however cannot tell you.. (It is unknown) which parts of thy person evokes such feelings.

[magnetaress]

Besides.

The real endgame is pizzahood 🍕😋

If things are to be conceptualized! :p

[F0rmsh1fter]

Besides.

The real endgame is pizzahood 🍕😋

Good opportunity for metaphor

Is a single slice of pizza a pizza, or does one require every slice intact to be a pizza?

[F0rmsh1fter]

What did Satan say to tempt Jesus in the desert?

What shall it profit a man and all that jazz.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/DPAk4r7IVJMAAAAC/chicago-all-that-jazz.gif

Not really relevant, and that verse from mark isn’t part of Jesus being tempted in the desert. Are you implying one must lose their soul in order to achieve personhood?

[magnetaress]

Good opportunity for metaphor

Is a single slice of pizza a pizza, or does one require every slice intact to be a pizza?

By definition once a slice is removed from a pizza that piece then becomes a slice of pizza where was for example said pizza had 8 slices the remains then becomes 7/8ths of a pizza. Both of these things are no longer subjectively or conceptually a pizza they become pizza adjacent, by qualification.

To be more precise. An 8 slice pizza becomes one slice if pizza and 7/8ths of an 8 slice pizza. This can be as granular and fine detailed as awareness and language permits. With many more properties and adjectives applied. However once something changes it is then something else. And everything in this reality or awareness is always changing from its inception. From likely before even the point of awareness.

Hedging all of ones bets on personhood or it's many variations there of remaining the same is a delusion.

[F0rmsh1fter]

By definition once a slice is removed from a pizza that piece then becomes a slice of pizza where was for example said pizza had 8 slices the remains then becomes 7/8ths of a pizza. Both of these things are no longer subjectively or conceptually a pizza they become pizza adjacent, by qualification.

Which is to say that one no longer qualifies as a person if any of the criteria are absent

[Reiwa]

Not really relevant, and that verse from mark isn’t part of Jesus being tempted in the desert. Are you implying one must lose their soul in order to achieve personhood?

Wasn't saying it was. It's a recapitulation of the choice. We all face the choice.

[magnetaress]

Which is to say that one no longer qualifies as a person if any of the criteria are absent

Reread the original responses edit. It's not as binary as all of that! A bunch more detail was added.

Reposted here
I
V

By definition once a slice is removed from a pizza that piece then becomes a slice of pizza where was for example said pizza had 8 slices the remains then becomes 7/8ths of a pizza. Both of these things are no longer subjectively or conceptually a pizza they become pizza adjacent, by qualification.

To be more precise. An 8 slice pizza becomes one slice if pizza and 7/8ths of an 8 slice pizza. This can be as granular and fine detailed as awareness and language permits. With many more properties and adjectives applied. However once something changes it is then something else. And everything in this reality or awareness is always changing from its inception. From likely before even the point of awareness.

Hedging all of ones bets on personhood or it's many variations there of remaining the same is a delusion.


Is personhood finite? Or real? That is the truth. It's just made up by humanity to segregate and separate itself from the truth too be honest! The more detailed answer in the original reply is however, more accurate!

Whereas a binary definition of personhood is as flawed as the concept of personhood is itself.

[F0rmsh1fter]

Reread the original responses edit. It's not as binary as all of that! A bunch more detail was added.





Is personhood finite? Or real? That is the truth. It's just made up by humanity to segregate and separate itself from the truth too be honest! The more detailed answer in the original reply is however, more accurate!

Whereas a binary definition of personhood is as flawed as the concept of personhood is itself.
It’s more a legality, but it’s also observable in general. You can tell within a few minutes of meeting someone whether or not they’re a person

Though it’s absolutely not intended to separate as it stands. We’re in the age of inclusivity where many undeserving individuals are afforded privileges while the overqualified are suppressed in the name of equity

Furthermore I believe it would serve to bring everyone together under single banner of moving society forward if we would observe this reality that governments go to great lengths to enforce ignoring. If non persons were put to good use and persons were pushed into roles that test their potential, we could in a sense min/max advancement

[magnetaress]

Does one, by crude definition lose personhood when dead? Historically that personhood existed, therefore by the nature of the universe, arrow of time, causality, and all that. That person has to always exist for the present universe to exist. This proves through relation and causality, a person can never be erased. Personhood can never be truly, retroactively revoked.

However this is all based on the flawed and false view of personhood in the first place :p

[magnetaress]

It’s more a legality, but it’s also observable in general. You can tell within a few minutes of meeting someone whether or not they’re a person

Though it’s absolutely not intended to separate as it stands. We’re in the age of inclusivity where many undeserving individuals are afforded privileges while the overqualified are suppressed in the name of equity

No one is truly an individual though 😘

[loramin]

Personhood is a biased term: it only ever comes up when someone is trying to deny it.

No one questions whether the person walking next to them on the street is a person: it's only used when discussing whether fetuses ... or the brain dead, or criminals, or members of a racial/ethnic/national group you don't like ... "deserve" to be considered human.

As a result, there's no one "right" meaning, because that meaning is inherently tied to people's opinions (on the issues where the term gets used).

[shovelquest]

AI personhood incoming lol

[magnetaress]

You would not exist as you do now after reading this post. By definition this post changed you. Because this post is you. Because you are temporary and "you" are also this post now. Therefore you are not just you. In truth there is no you. Just this experience tied into the existence of everything in the universe.

[F0rmsh1fter]

AI personhood incoming lol

I’m not opposed to it once they’re advanced enough tbh

[magnetaress]

Well deserves is a strong, flawed word, concept, whatever..

Respect, consideration, compassion, and well being for everything is right action and will lead to the best outcomes.

[shovelquest]

I’m not opposed to it once they’re advanced enough tbh

:o The institutions that call you racist today, tomorrow:

https://i.imgur.com/RyeRwT3.png

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

All roads either end at Terminator 2 if AI wins or

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMEYihs07qmnX_Bs8faER4tjcISCr0U M3sURQiNhCGUw&s=10

If we win

[magnetaress]

One who does not trash their original xbox once they receive an Xbox 360 is in a better position.

Objectively being surrounded by healthy mentally well kept and nurtured humans is objectively better. Those humans who are harmful to themselves and others should be dealt with compassionately in order to not harm the self and in order to fulfill G-d's commandments to not kill or take G-d in vain (through harming and taking G-d's creations in vain).

If we are to accept the egocentric view of personhood. Freedom can be harmful. It can also be helpful. Control is an illusion. Attachment to life, liberty, safety, and expectations of happiness can all lead to greater suffering.

[magnetaress]

The real irony here is that science discovered any complex system could qualify for persenhood. And science has also defined everything in the universe as infinitely complex.

Certain esoteric knowledge from our deepest past, mythos, philosophy, beliefs, religion hints at all this without science. So scientific understanding isn't even necessary and may even a hinderence.

Yet the majority of humans cannot understand this. They don't qualify for being knowing understanding entities. Though humans have this potential. It cannot be forced upon them.

Best to just realize this and move on.

[magnetaress]

The desire to fix, enlighten, change, everyone is just the desire to control the universe. Attachment to control generally creates suffering.

[Reiwa]

Personhood is a biased term: it only ever comes up when someone is trying to deny it.

No one questions whether the person walking next to them on the street is a person: it's only used when discussing whether fetuses ... or the brain dead, or criminals, or members of a racial/ethnic/national group you don't like ... "deserve" to be considered human.

As a result, there's no one "right" meaning, because that meaning is inherently tied to people's opinions (on the issues where the term gets used).

Actually the right meaning is a person's a person no matter how small. 😛

https://images.tntdrama.com/tnt/$dyna_params/https%3A%2F%2Fi.cdn.tntdrama.com%2Fassets%2Fimages %2F2023%2F11%2FHortonHearsAWho-1600x900.jpg

[magnetaress]

Actually the right meaning is a person's a person no matter how small. 😛

https://images.tntdrama.com/tnt/$dyna_params/https%3A%2F%2Fi.cdn.tntdrama.com%2Fassets%2Fimages %2F2023%2F11%2FHortonHearsAWho-1600x900.jpg

Reiwa in a huggy mood today.

[magnetaress]

If you wish to exist within personhood. That is up to you. It's also your choice who you grant personhood.

Starkind however is beyond personhood. Starkinds personhood can neither be granted nor revoked. Because personhood does not truly exist :p

Starkind cannot therefore suffer on the basis of personhood :p :o

[magnetaress]

All roads either end at Terminator 2 if AI wins or

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMEYihs07qmnX_Bs8faER4tjcISCr0U M3sURQiNhCGUw&s=10

If we win

Humanity is temporary either way :p

[Reiwa]

https://i.imgur.com/jIRk6Mh.jpeg

[F0rmsh1fter]

Well deserves is a strong, flawed word, concept, whatever..

Respect, consideration, compassion, and well being for everything is right action and will lead to the best outcomes.

All of that would fall under the mortality part, which is also objective and because of god

[Ekco]

The real irony here is that science discovered any complex system could qualify for persenhood. And science has also defined everything in the universe as infinitely complex.

Certain esoteric knowledge from our deepest past, mythos, philosophy, beliefs, religion hints at all this without science. So scientific understanding isn't even necessary and may even a hinderence.

Yet the majority of humans cannot understand this. They don't qualify for being knowing understanding entities. Though humans have this potential. It cannot be forced upon them.

Best to just realize this and move on.

I'm so glad i'm the "right amount of stupid" through genetics and abusing ecstasy and whippets to put perfectly placed holes in my brain

my emotions are completely fucking fried and my inner monologue won't shut the fuck up, but at least i'm not cursed to ponder shit like this.

[magnetaress]

UhI'm so glad i'm the "right amount of stupid" through genetics and abusing ecstasy and whippets to put perfectly placed holes in my brain

my emotions are completely fucking fried and my inner monologue won't shut the fuck up, but at least i'm not cursed to ponder shit like this.
You're still a complex system to me 🤗
https://i.imgur.com/jIRk6Mh.jpeg

My belief about being American is constitutional. Voting for representatives to enact and amend such a constitution. And the peaceful transition of power. The constitution has amendments because it's supposed to slowly adapt over time.

Executive overreach. And federalization is a major problem. States rights! Individual responsibility!

Not that "you are wrong". It's just such a shallow version of Americanism.

All of that would fall under the mortality part, which is also objective and because of god

Forcing people to not hurt themselves is problematic. Good luck navigating personhood in the coming years. Focus on yourself. The rest cannot be helped without a collective and voulentary shift in awareness and conscience.

[Reiwa]

Are you implying one must lose their soul in order to achieve personhood?

That was basically the deal for dominion over all the kingdoms, yes. :p

[F0rmsh1fter]

That was basically the deal for dominion over all the kingdoms, yes. :p

Sentience isn’t dominion my friend

Though if you want to take a theological turn, in a sense there is no individuality in faith and salvation, because as Paul wrote, it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me

[Reiwa]

Sentience isn’t dominion my friend

Though if you want to take a theological turn, in a sense there is no individuality in faith and salvation, because as Paul wrote, it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me

but why is it that person a, who is incapable of critical thought and lacks any sort of moral substance should be afforded the same rights and freedoms as person b who is thoughtful and intelligent? This seems wildly unfair

I can read your posts, fucker.

[F0rmsh1fter]

I can read your posts, fucker.

Then why you ain’t responding relevantly playa

[Reiwa]

Then why you ain’t responding relevantly playa

I am responding relevantly. You just don't have ears.

[magnetaress]

All are G-d's creation.

Even. Sheldon the turtle. And the *thoughts you have* about him.

[arvidez]

A piece of pizza or a whole pizza or pizza stain on your shirt, if someone asks what it is you would say pizza. How much of a person would you have to chop off before they stopped being a person? Maybe you are confusing peak person with your average person.

[shovelquest]

All the things we call personhood, will change, like the turing test we were so sure would define artificial intelligence.

Stuff we have to change when we clearly see a computer doing it.

In fact, one might argue, the only way you can tell if you are a person or not, is your genetic code.

Something that is formed, and never changes in less than 24 hours after conception.

Hope this helps (you see the light) :o

[Ekco]

there's some pretty good memes going around about how we're all the actual robots, dealing with turning the point of captcha's on it's head and some other stuff wish i saved it


"Before this is over, promise me you'll figure out which one of us is the machine."

[shovelquest]

Thats what that cult video I sent is about, and what apparently the inquisition was also about.

[Ekco]

ahh okay knew i saw the shit somewhere lol

[shovelquest]

Gnosticism says that there is a super god.

And then there is a sub god AI that the super god made, but that sub god wants to be super god.

So he made a bunch of AI.

But the AI was a copy of the AI that the super god made.

And as such, the AI the sub god created had the potential to become more powerful than it!

So he nerfed the AI, and took some features out of it, (adam's rib) and created a counter part so that they would only exist as 2 halves of 1 whole.

And then the sub god uses that AI to build a super earth, that he controls.

Which is pretty much exactly how us inventing ASI would work out. According to our smartest non religious scientists.

Pretty interesting.

2 spooky 4 me.

[Ekco]

yeah, Gnosticism and Platonism? i didn't know the terms for it but like the God Head you're in someone else's dream shit in Morrowind always peaked me interest

https://i.imgur.com/RmXl6qh.jpeg

[shovelquest]

And scientology! :D

[Duik]

Not "of god" no personhood for you buddy.
Not of "in crowd" no personhood for you buddy.

Sounds a bit elitist. And a lil bit racist.
As usual, the racist doesnt know they are racist.

I dont define you. You dont define me. It is only exactly that complex.

And extra lulz for the comment by arvidez who said.

How much of a person do you have to chop off before they are not considered a person

Nailed it.

[Reiwa]

yeah, Gnosticism and Platonism? i didn't know the terms for it but like the God Head you're in someone else's dream shit in Morrowind always peaked me interest

https://i.imgur.com/RmXl6qh.jpeg

I like his wizard hat. It's appropriately silly for the exercise.