Tunnel Gear - Warrior Weapons

[zelld52]

First time being serious about a warrior means I'm thinking about aggro weapons; should I be lucky enough to find groups while levelling. I currently have Swiftblade of Zek, Frostbringer and Wrapped Entropy Serpent Spine.

My intuition tells me that the Swiftblade + Frostbringer will be my best bet while levelling 30-50s. The 11 damage and fast delay of Swiftblade will generate me white damage threat, and the Frostbringer proc is nice bonus for offhand threat. (Once level 40, that is)

When I start to approach 50s, will it be better to switch Swiftblade out for WESS for that mega-threat from the long-duration blind? I imagine I'll need more than Swiftblade white damage threat when there's epic rogues backstabbing.

Or, should I just stick with the Swiftblade through until I get a leet DKP weapon like Trident or something, once the warrior is in its 50s+?

[Naethyn]

Get the best haste item you can afford and then you can use whatever weapon you want.

[Keebz]

Did they unnerf WESS? Last I checked it was terrible. Swiftblade x frosty is fine. Personally I'd just use the root shovel and reaver. If you raid on another char, get dain axe.

[Solist]

Buy dps.

Dps holds aggro.

Reaver, exquisite, rotting frostreaver or KT axe.

Get proc weapons at 60, in a raid. No one cares if you can hold aggro off a twink monk with a tstaff who tanks better than you anyway.

[Jimjam]

Buy dps.

Dps holds aggro.

Reaver, exquisite, rotting frostreaver or KT axe.

Get proc weapons at 60, in a raid. No one cares if you can hold aggro off a twink monk with a tstaff who tanks better than you anyway.

Also the more dps you have the less time spent not tanking the mob cos mob is dead earlier :)

[zelld52]

Did they unnerf WESS? Last I checked it was terrible. Swiftblade x frosty is fine. Personally I'd just use the root shovel and reaver. If you raid on another char, get dain axe.

hmm i woulda thought the threat would be great because its a 1.7 minute duration blind - so even if it gets resisted thats alot of threat. havent field tested it yet

[Crede]

hmm i woulda thought the threat would be great because its a 1.7 minute duration blind - so even if it gets resisted thats alot of threat. havent field tested it yet

Infestation/wess aggro was nerfed a few years ago. Nobody uses these weapons anymore.

2h is king. Just grab a reaver or try to get kt axe / frost reaver for minimal dkp if you have access to it as others have mentioned. 2h is also a nice easy swap with truncheon once you start using that.

[kjs86z2]

thread title is "tunnel gear" not raid gear

but yeah...frostreaver and you're good to go til you start dropping DKP bombs on BiS shit

nobody cares about aggro if you're in a standard pug leveling group...and duo/trio non issue w/ er'body on the same page...DPS is king

[PatChapp]

Just use the biggest/best 2h you can afford. Reaver is great as is herby Spade.
Grats now your 50+
If your an ogre,keep the swiftblade. Works fine as an offhand for raid tanking,with a willsapper/trident/red blade main hand
If superior non ogre,it's still worth holding onto for ramping

[zelld52]

thanks for the tips, i thought WESS was still good aggro - the DPS sucks but i remember warriors using it after the DoT aggro nerf.

and no Frostreaver for me because im an elf. i weighed the decision of fashion vs. easy to acquire 2hs and went with fashion.

[kjs86z2]

herb spade it is then

[Allishia]

herb spade it is then

Probably the best for agro while leveling too, just hug the mob when it's rooted =P

[Botten]

herb spade it is then

This is a great weapon.



Even great for soloing.

2xEmbalmers Skinning Knife

Cobalt Breastplate

Truncheon of Doom

2xBloodpoints

[kjs86z2]

I never bothered w/ bloodpoints but thats prob b/c I had a Twisted Steel Bastard Sword at level 46.

[Jimjam]

This is a great weapon.



Even great for soloing.

2xEmbalmers Skinning Knife

Cobalt Breastplate

Truncheon of Doom

2xBloodpoints

Honestly, not sure anything but bandages daggers and spade is worth it. Trunch ratio lengthens the fight by the same amount it ends up lowering dps. I like proccing roon vs fleeing mobs tho. Of course spade means fewer fleeers.

[zelld52]

Honestly, not sure anything but bandages daggers and spade is worth it. Trunch ratio lengthens the fight by the same amount it ends up lowering dps. I like proccing roon vs fleeing mobs tho. Of course spade means fewer fleeers.

used a spade on my monk for levelling after i foolishly sold my T Staff to fund a twink.

it works really well when you can root the mob, back up and bandage yourself mid fight. its just so damn slow=(

[Naethyn]

At 50 I was able to do a bunch of solo with blood points, snare wep, and trunch. Started out by getting the mob snared. Then jousting a trunch until it was slow. Then blood points to stay at a good hp. This was all pre spade though.

[Solist]

Counter point:
Buy some ES legs and donals arms.
/who all druid/cle within 5 levels of you above 45.

Get click legs/arms on you forever while you melee the highest dark blues you can sustain on. Get them back at end of session.

Win. Probably a better investment than any one single item on the warrior could ever be.

[Duik]

Counter counter point:
Find 2 specific classes in a specific lvl range that wanna mindlessly click items. On an empty(ish) server.

[Solist]

Counter counter counter point:
Play an MMORPG exclusively solo, and don't make efforts to play with others that extend beyind what is probably expected.

[zelld52]

Counter counter counter point:
Play an MMORPG exclusively solo, and don't make efforts to play with others that extend beyind what is probably expected.

Huge jump between grouping with others and giving players items and telling them to be your pocket healer. Lot of ground you didn't cover on that logical leap there.

[Goregasmic]

From the other threads like this before, best EC option is the spade. Truncheon relatively distant second. Reaver is probably alright too.

1handers you'd have to calculate hate per minute, proc per minute depending on dex and proc hate. The first 2 are easy but we have no verified numbers for proc hate.

From what I understand Wess and infestation had massive aggro due to having a lot of poison counters but I think all procs got capped at 400 hate. This means wess/infestation probably still proc max hate but it possibly doesn't compensate for inferior ratio anymore, especially for WESS. So better weapons with lesser procs might have overtaken them on the hate charts.

Never seen anyone post any tangible results for this post nerf though. Even less so for EC options. It is very possible something like a SBOZ generates more hate from white damage than a frostbringer.

[PatChapp]

From the other threads like this before, best EC option is the spade. Truncheon relatively distant second. Reaver is probably alright too.

1handers you'd have to calculate hate per minute, proc per minute depending on dex and proc hate. The first 2 are easy but we have no verified numbers for proc hate.

From what I understand Wess and infestation had massive aggro due to having a lot of poison counters but I think all procs got capped at 400 hate. This means wess/infestation probably still proc max hate but it possibly doesn't compensate for inferior ratio anymore, especially for WESS. So better weapons with lesser procs might have overtaken them on the hate charts.

Never seen anyone post any tangible results for this post nerf though. Even less so for EC options. It is very possible something like a SBOZ generates more hate from white damage than a frostbringer.
Infestation proc doesn't add any hate beyond the minimal dmg,as it isn't a debuff, It use useless for warriors now.
Not sure on wess but should be 400hate proc

[Goregasmic]

Infestation proc doesn't add any hate beyond the minimal dmg,as it isn't a debuff, It use useless for warriors now.
Not sure on wess but should be 400hate proc

It isn't a debuff but it is still 3 poison counters and I thought poison counters gave a lot of hate?

Did they change how hate works or just the cap?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It isn't a debuff but it is still 3 poison counters and I thought poison counters gave a lot of hate?

Did they change how hate works or just the cap?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412540&highlight=Hate

This was the big hate adjustment patch, which dropped at the end of 2022.

While it doesn't talk about poison counters directly, I remember discussions about poison/disease counters being nerfed/bugged hate-wise. People are saying they don't generate hate. I haven't tested it personally.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3643387

[PatChapp]

They do not generate hate

[PatChapp]

We out feverblades and the vp poison weapons on rogue bots for a decent free offhand now, they do nothing for hate

[WarpathEQ]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412540&highlight=Hate

This was the big hate adjustment patch, which dropped at the end of 2022.

While it doesn't talk about poison counters directly, I remember discussions about poison/disease counters being nerfed/bugged hate-wise. People are saying they don't generate hate. I haven't tested it personally.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3643387

Long.Liam seems to have it right in that second link. That aligns with my understanding and experience of how procs and hate amounts work.

I don't think that poison and disease is bugged just that counters themselves don't add hate. My assumption is that it just goes off the white damage as the hate amount for poison and disease spells/procs/DoTs. Which was likely to balance agro for classes that use big damage poison and disease DoTs (i.e. Shaman).

WESS is a bit unique in that its proc contains poison counters but not really tied to any other outcome, the proc is basically the same exact thing as the bio orb effect, but with some extra poison counters. Any easy test would be compare the hate of the WESS proc to a bio orb click. I bet the hate amount is 100% the same.

Really that means the issue with the WESS isn't a low hate proc, its still an very high hate proc, just has a shitty ratio/high delay compare to other weapons with relatively strong hate procs leading to overall less hate and DPS leading to this item falling out of favor with the tank community.

[Goregasmic]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412540&highlight=Hate

This was the big hate adjustment patch, which dropped at the end of 2022.

While it doesn't talk about poison counters directly, I remember discussions about poison/disease counters being nerfed/bugged hate-wise. People are saying they don't generate hate. I haven't tested it personally.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3643387

Yeah I read that, both the patch and the supposedly buggy poison/disease counters. Nothing super informative in the end. Seems like we'll never know until someone tests it out and that seems like a painstaking process.

WESS is a bit unique in that its proc contains poison counters but not really tied to any other outcome, the proc is basically the same exact thing as the bio orb effect, but with some extra poison counters. Any easy test would be compare the hate of the WESS proc to a bio orb click. I bet the hate amount is 100% the same.

Maybe im dumb but it seems hard to isolate a proc value from swing hate noise. You'd have to account for hate done in real time or be lucky and proc on the first swing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't think that poison and disease is bugged just that counters themselves don't add hate.

Poison/disease counters did generate hate on P99 before. That is why Infestation was a highly sought after Warrior weapon for years. You may not have seen that since you joined in 2023. After the 2022 patch I linked previously, people stopped using weapons that relied on poison/disease counters like Infestation. Raid Warriors usually have a good understanding/feel for their weapon hate. So I believe people when they say poison/disease counter hate changed. I just haven't tested it myself.

[WarpathEQ]

Poison/disease counters did generate hate on P99 before. That is why Infestation was a highly sought after Warrior weapon for years. You may not have seen that since you joined in 2023. After the 2022 patch I linked previously, people stopped using weapons that relied on poison/disease counters like Infestation. Raid Warriors usually have a good understanding/feel for their weapon hate. So I believe people when they say poison/disease counter hate changed. I just haven't tested it myself.

Agreed. Not refuting that it changed, fully aware that these items like WESS and Infestation were go to top tier agro weapons a few years back.

More so that the change is working as intended and that the counters producing hate in the past was likely a bug not a feature.

Just thinking through playing on a shaman for example, if the counters added additional hate it would make it incredibly rare for a shaman to ever not have agro on a mob (certainly in a solo or group situation, but even in raids we often see shaman deaths as it is today without hate from the counters).

[WarpathEQ]

Yeah I read that, both the patch and the supposedly buggy poison/disease counters. Nothing super informative in the end. Seems like we'll never know until someone tests it out and that seems like a painstaking process.



Maybe im dumb but it seems hard to isolate a proc value from swing hate noise. You'd have to account for hate done in real time or be lucky and proc on the first swing.

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Agreed. Not refuting that it changed, fully aware that these items like WESS and Infestation were go to top tier agro weapons a few years back.

More so that the change is working as intended and that the counters producing hate in the past was likely a bug not a feature.

Just thinking through playing on a shaman for example, if the counters added additional hate it would make it incredibly rare for a shaman to ever not have agro on a mob (certainly in a solo or group situation, but even in raids we often see shaman deaths as it is today without hate from the counters).

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification!

Yes, disease/poison counters were an issue for Shamans.

https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared

This is a video I made in 2020 showing how to have your pet tank a Cliff Golem. I used Epic and JBB to do most of the work rather than relying on Disease/Poison spells due to the hate generation from those spells.

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

Yeah testing hate shouldn't be difficult. You can do it with a pet class or with two players. Just need to be precise when it comes to counting swings/procs/spell casts.

[Samoht]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

The proc on WESS (https://wiki.project1999.com/WESS) is a blind, which actually have aggro rules on their own, more than just hate. It acts like a root when people are in melee range (mob attacks closest) and acts like a fear when there is nobody on the hate list in melee range (mob runs away).

[PatChapp]

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification!

Yes, disease/poison counters were an issue for Shamans.

https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared

This is a video I made in 2020 showing how to have your pet tank a Cliff Golem. I used Epic and JBB to do most of the work rather than relying on Disease/Poison spells due to the hate generation from those spells.



Yeah testing hate shouldn't be difficult. You can do it with a pet class or with two players. Just need to be precise when it comes to counting swings/procs/spell casts.
It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

[Goregasmic]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

IIIRC hate generated is weap damage + damage bonus on every swing, no matter the outcome (hit or miss).

WESS would be 22 on every swing + proc. Then you turn auto attack off and turn around to eliminate ripostes. Theoretically that's 22 x (swings#)+800.

Then someone else tries to rip aggro with bio orb and counts how many tries it takes, assuming an orb is 800 hate a pop. Also assuming the 4 poison counters on WESS do zero hate.

The thing is it says its up to 400 hate per SPA but we don't know post nerf if blind does 400 and if -5atk is "strong" enough to cap at 400. Assuming both procs have the same value, it would be (swing hate value)/(bio orb casts)+1cast to get even hate then you see if a minor hate generation like 1 swing or a very low level DD rips it off.

But then you cornered the value of 1 proc effect. 800 is a lot of hate but for a weapon with snare we don't know how much it is. I guess you could have a wizard nuke for (swinghatevalue) and then start nuking in 50dmg increments until they rip aggro?

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

Yeah I don't know for dragons but when charming I can pretty much stick pet and throw tash right away and I never gain aggro. Usually I follow immediately with fetter and forlorn and I'm not gaining aggro either. (Hasted and torched pets hurts quick though). Theft of thought will usually rip aggro if you don't wait a bit so you're at least getting the full 1200 hate from that.

[PatChapp]

Bio orb generates a lot of hate, I think blind still does the 400 per.

If you have access to a wizard,flux staff is great for measuring haye. Its fixed hate per click and instant

[WarpathEQ]

The proc on WESS (https://wiki.project1999.com/WESS) is a blind, which actually have aggro rules on their own, more than just hate. It acts like a root when people are in melee range (mob attacks closest) and acts like a fear when there is nobody on the hate list in melee range (mob runs away).

That's why Bio Orb would be a great comparable item to test since its literally the same effect line for line minus the poison counter component. The blind isn't too big of a consideration as once the effect wears off it would choose who to pursue based on normal hate/agro table. But yes small chance of false results if the mob flips due to a blind and not overtaking agro.

[WarpathEQ]

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

Makes sense, without the counter contributing to hate its really just a minor resist debuff, should have similar hate to a click of a flux staff from a wizard for example. Whether that aligns with classic in era I can't say for sure, but certainly aligns with our knowledge of hate/agro mechanics on P99 currently.

[zelld52]

Update: After reaching level 49 - I have some stats.

Here's my weapons I've been using.

1 Handers : Swiftblade of Zek, Frostbringer, Paebala Warbone, Sebilite Croaking Dirk
2 Hander: Herbalist Spade

Best DPS / Aggro: SBoZ +Sebilite Croaking Dirk. Having two 18 delay weapons + 34% worn (and if lucky, spell haste) - I'm able to pull aggro off a shaman slowing just using Taunt + White Damage. Can also hold aggro with epic rogue backstabbing. No procs needed. Frostbringer is also very good aggro when it procs, but the DPS is very slightly lower than the Dirk in offhand.

I imagine the DPS will change when I reach 51+ and the weapon skills exceed 200. Along with double attack, riposte and Offense. I expect the Herbalist Spade to take over as top DPS.

As it stands now, the fast 1 handers are better DPS and threat. Hoping to nab a slick ToV 2-Hander within the next few weeks.

[WarpathEQ]

Update: After reaching level 49 - I have some stats.

Here's my weapons I've been using.

1 Handers : Swiftblade of Zek, Frostbringer, Paebala Warbone, Sebilite Croaking Dirk
2 Hander: Herbalist Spade

Best DPS / Aggro: SBoZ +Sebilite Croaking Dirk. Having two 18 delay weapons + 34% worn (and if lucky, spell haste) - I'm able to pull aggro off a shaman slowing just using Taunt + White Damage. Can also hold aggro with epic rogue backstabbing. No procs needed. Frostbringer is also very good aggro when it procs, but the DPS is very slightly lower than the Dirk in offhand.

I imagine the DPS will change when I reach 51+ and the weapon skills exceed 200. Along with double attack, riposte and Offense. I expect the Herbalist Spade to take over as top DPS.

As it stands now, the fast 1 handers are better DPS and threat. Hoping to nab a slick ToV 2-Hander within the next few weeks.

Did you try frostbringer in mainhand? I only ever see warriors main handing it as the proc rate will be much higher which will contribute significantly more threat.

[Naethyn]

Piercing has lower skill cap on warrior.

[Duik]

Does neg 20 AC really make much DPS difference as well? Or is it the fact its a debuff that pisses mobs off.
How much hate is generated by the debuff.
12/22 is a godlike weapon (to lil ol' me).

[PatChapp]

Just the rebuffed, Even if resisted,will generate 400 hate. If the damage portion lands it adds additional hate.
The reasonable ratio develops decent white threat.

[Duik]

A 32/36 exquisite 2hb is 1200pp. Is this a common enuf drop to be easy to buy in a resonable amount of time?

A 12/22 frosty costs ≈ 3000k and you need another weapon. A 12/22 folded velium is ≈ 1000pp.

Sounds like alot to do less dps.

[Duik]

Ok.
Should really ignore that post above.
A 32/36 2HB is 12 thousand not 12 hundered.

Opening with a load of rubbish does not bode well for the rest of the post....

[Goregasmic]

Did you try frostbringer in mainhand? I only ever see warriors main handing it as the proc rate will be much higher which will contribute significantly more threat.

Problem with frostbringer main hand is the 22 delay really doesn't take advantage of damage bonus much. I was curious so I ran the numbers

If hate = weapdmg + dmg bonus every swing, in hate per minute at 60:

9/19 = 631 lamentation
9/18 = 667 jade mace
12/22 = 627 frostbringer
11/20 = 660 guard captain mallet
10/18 = 699 sebilite croaking dirk
12/20 = 690 exq. Vel. BH
11/18 = 733 SBOZ

42/49 = 1029 argent prot
32/36 = 1050 exq 2h
39/43 = 1060 spade
33/44 = 859 truncheon
40/40 = 1110 reaver


So as you can see even a lamentation generates more hpm than a frostbringer from swings but frostbringer trumps probably pretty much any 1hander in game that doesn't have a proc, IF it procs. So it kind of all hangs on your dex and the situation. I used a 1proc/min to simplify calculations but IIRC that's basically naked dext. So if you have any dex on gear you'll proc more for sure but if you're clearing group trash you won't see procs on all mobs.

A reaver will do better even without procs... BUT you got an offhand that also generates hate so I guess if FB procs even 2 handers can't catch up. Damage bonus is about half the hpm value so if hate calculations don't factor DB for OH, depending on the OH you might be above or below reaver if FB doesn't proc.

If you have high dex and can proc twice a minute the frostbringer will basically be doing 1500+ hpm IF frostbite is really a 460hate proc, putting it way above everything else.

If I forgot something please chime in. This goes against a lot of what I've read on the topic and I don't think I'm that smart.

[Crede]

Problem with frostbringer main hand is the 22 delay really doesn't take advantage of damage bonus much. I was curious so I ran the numbers

If hate = weapdmg + dmg bonus every swing, in hate per minute at 60:

9/19 = 631 lamentation
9/18 = 667 jade mace
12/22 = 627 frostbringer
11/20 = 660 guard captain mallet
10/18 = 699 sebilite croaking dirk
12/20 = 690 exq. Vel. BH
11/18 = 733 SBOZ

42/49 = 1029 argent prot
32/36 = 1050 exq 2h
39/43 = 1060 spade
33/44 = 859 truncheon
40/40 = 1110 reaver


So as you can see even a lamentation generates more hpm than a frostbringer from swings but frostbringer trumps probably pretty much any 1hander in game that doesn't have a proc, IF it procs. So it kind of all hangs on your dex and the situation. I used a 1proc/min to simplify calculations but IIRC that's basically naked dext. So if you have any dex on gear you'll proc more for sure but if you're clearing group trash you won't see procs on all mobs.

A reaver will do better even without procs... BUT you got an offhand that also generates hate so I guess if FB procs even 2 handers can't catch up. Damage bonus is about half the hpm value so if hate calculations don't factor DB for OH, depending on the OH you might be above or below reaver if FB doesn't proc.

If you have high dex and can proc twice a minute the frostbringer will basically be doing 1500+ hpm IF frostbite is really a 460hate proc, putting it way above everything else.

If I forgot something please chime in. This goes against a lot of what I've read on the topic and I don't think I'm that smart.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostreaver

Get one of these if you can

[Goregasmic]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostreaver

Get one of these if you can

Yeah best of both worlds but the thread title is tunnel gear so I stayed true to OPs question. Haven't raided much either so it is out of my wheelhouse anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of cheap drops you can get for low DKP or outright buy but that's beyond the scope of the question.

How much would a frostreaver be if one paid plat for it, just out of curiosity?

[Crede]

Yeah best of both worlds but the thread title is tunnel gear so I stayed true to OPs question. Haven't raided much either so it is out of my wheelhouse anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of cheap drops you can get for low DKP or outright buy but that's beyond the scope of the question.

How much would a frostreaver be if one paid plat for it, just out of curiosity?

Yea op is already talking about getting tov gear soon so that’s out the door.

Not sure but I’d imagine it’s pretty cheap if it’s fuse.

[Goregasmic]

I just reread first page and he's an elf so no frostreaver.

[zelld52]

Yea op is already talking about getting tov gear soon so that’s out the door.


Hoping to, hah. Whether it happens or not is up to a combination of RNG and the other raiders interested in a beefy 2h for their warrior twinks.

But for now, the SBoZ + Seb Croaking Dirk is doing me good in groups. I use the Herb Spade for soloing and less ripostes etc.

And yes, elf so no Frostreaver. But the fashion is worth it.

[Crede]

Hoping to, hah. Whether it happens or not is up to a combination of RNG and the other raiders interested in a beefy 2h for their warrior twinks.

But for now, the SBoZ + Seb Croaking Dirk is doing me good in groups. I use the Herb Spade for soloing and less ripostes etc.

And yes, elf so no Frostreaver. But the fashion is worth it.

I wouldn’t blow your dkp on a beefy 2h because warrior solo potential tanks 50+ due to not having cc you really can’t handle adds and hoping for procs sucks.

I went with kt axe on my war, great ratio stats and cost me like 5 dkp. I’d personally save your dkp for other warrior gear that actually matters.

[PatChapp]

I didn't find it too bad to solo on my warrior. Spots are limited to ones that don't require cc,for sure. But you can absolutely solo even through 59. It isn't fun or anything but you can do it pretty afk at least.

[Crede]

Oh yea any class can afk chill and kill random standalone mobs to 60 but you’re not gonna have the same momentum as you did sub 50 vs other melee like a sk or pal that have a lot more options. I just wouldn’t go all in on a huge 2h in the hopes that it’s gonna make you this solo king because it won’t. I did a 200+ dex build and relying on root procs was not ideal even with a haste clicky for more dps.

[PatChapp]

Oh yea any class can afk chill and kill random standalone mobs to 60 but you’re not gonna have the same momentum as you did sub 50 vs other melee like a sk or pal that have a lot more options. I just wouldn’t go all in on a huge 2h in the hopes that it’s gonna make you this solo king because it won’t. I did a 200+ dex build and relying on root procs was not ideal even with a haste clicky for more dps.
Yeah I only had a Narandis lance but eyepatch +sky belt for haste helped a lot. Sky belt somewhat sucks at 60,but is great for leveling at least.
I basically killed barbarians from 51-60 when I solod.
The mcmarrins until 55,and then the barbarian bank guards in qeynos until 60
It worked,certainly not fun or the fastest but if you can pay attention for a minute or 2 every 6-10 mins youll get there eventually

[Jimjam]

My red war used club of ice ocean and venomous axe for most of 51-60 agains sonic bats and LDCs 57+. Its easy but time consuming yet fun remembering the spawns / timing pulls / running to zone lines.

[Crede]

Hoping to, hah. Whether it happens or not is up to a combination of RNG and the other raiders interested in a beefy 2h for their warrior twinks.

But for now, the SBoZ + Seb Croaking Dirk is doing me good in groups. I use the Herb Spade for soloing and less ripostes etc.

And yes, elf so no Frostreaver. But the fashion is worth it.

If you can get a scimitar of lifestealing & silver whip, that would be a neat 1h build lol

[Drueric]

This is a bit late, but... hear me out.

Iksar Berzerker Club is late game OP, for a warrior.

[Jimjam]

It is a beautiful proc.

[greatdane]

hmm i woulda thought the threat would be great because its a 1.7 minute duration blind - so even if it gets resisted thats alot of threat. havent field tested it yet

Generally speaking, duration has no impact on threat. All effects of a given type generate a uniform amount of threat. All stuns are the same (except the ones that also deal damage, in which case the damage is added on top at a rate of 1:1 dmg:threat), all snares are the same, all slows are the same.

For spells cast by an actual caster, the amount of threat generated depends on the mob's HP if it's a binary effect like stun or slow, basically HP/15 up to a maximum of 1200 which occurs at 18k HP. Damage spells are different, I believe they just generate the spell's base damage as raw threat, no matter how much actual damage it ends up dealing (if any). Poison and disease counters also generate some inherent threat, but the amount was nerfed considerably and it's not much anymore.

For procs, the maximum threat is 400 for base effects (stun, AC debuffs, snare, etc.) plus any damage on top; for instance, Ykesha is 400+75. Damage procs function the way damage spells do, as do procs that generate raw threat (I think the only one that exists on P99 is Blade of Strategy, since BoC doesn't proc Enraging Blow here), and so can generate more than the baseline 400 cap. The highest aggro from any weapon proc is SoD's 400+288. Blade of Strategy is 600 (500 raw threat + 100 damage).

Blind as an effect doesn't generate that much aggro on its own. The reason WESS used to be good was the poison counters attached to the proc, but that was nerfed. Same goes for weapons like Infestation and BotBDE. Poison/disease counters from procs used to be able to generate more threat than the default 400 of binary effects.

Incidentally, weapon swings generate a set amount of threat based on the weapon's damage stat and your damage bonus. Basically add them together and that's how much threat you generate with each attack of that weapon, so at level 60 with a damage bonus of 11, a swing with warrior epic generates 14+11 threat. It doesn't matter whether you hit or miss or how much damage you actually do. You could miss or hit for 5 or crit for 70 and it's the same amount. The same is true for spells - Ice Comet generates the same amount whether it's fully resisted, lands for 100, lands for full damage, or crits. Crippling blows from a warrior do have a ministun component that generates extra threat.

Most of the commonly used tunnel weapons are approximately equal and the thing that sets them apart is ratio and any stats they might have (though they tend not to have much of that). SoD is the obvious exception, but you wouldn't really consider that a tunnel weapon in any sense. At level 60 with a damage bonus of 11, Wavecrasher is the best one that can be bought for a realistic amount of money, and Frostbringer is the second best. Before 60, Frostbringer is slightly better.

During Kunark, if you can get a Rod of Mourning, that's actually in the running as one of the best aggro weapons prior to VP/epic, with the added benefit of being 2h for reduced riposte intake. It's removed from the loot table after a month, but it's not impossible to get hold of one. It's a bit outdated in Velious, and not worth the cost by then, but still serviceable and there's something kind of nice about tanking with a 2h. It also ekes a little bit of extra value out of your own ripostes.

[Botten]

Do you think Illusion: 60 adds any base threat when applied or do you think the game doesn't see it as a valid debuff?

There are two weapons that add Illusion: 60 + 75 damage

While the ratio's are not stellar they both technically don't have the No Drop tag (Tunnel Gear).

I have always been curious. Good write up by the way.

[zelld52]

Generally speaking, duration has no impact on threat. All effects of a given type generate a uniform amount of threat.

I don't think that's entirely true. Shaman get more threat for a resisted Turgur's Insects than a landed one - because it dumps all 6 minutes of the accumulated threat per tick into you at once.

Whereas if you landed the Turgur's Insects, you get incremental threat per tick. So with a 1.7 minute Blind, if it gets resisted (which it will on raid mobs) you get ultra threat, which is why Bio Orb is a good opener for a tank on a raid.

Incidentally, weapon swings generate a set amount of threat based on the weapon's damage stat and your damage bonus. Basically add them together and that's how much threat you generate with each attack of that weapon, so at level 60 with a damage bonus of 11, a swing with warrior epic generates 14+11 threat. It doesn't matter whether you hit or miss or how much damage you actually do. You could miss or hit for 5 or crit for 70 and it's the same amount

I also don't think this is entirely accurate. I have played rogue alot on p99 as well, and it's a noticeable difference between threat on a low-damage backstab and a missed backstab. I heard a rumor that if you miss an attack, it gives you the same threat as if you hit for full damage - compared to hitting for low damage. People who play rogues will notice this - that missed backstabs typically generate more threat than backstabs that hit for minimum damage, or low damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I also don't think this is entirely accurate. I have played rogue alot on p99 as well, and it's a noticeable difference between threat on a low-damage backstab and a missed backstab. I heard a rumor that if you miss an attack, it gives you the same threat as if you hit for full damage - compared to hitting for low damage. People who play rogues will notice this - that missed backstabs typically generate more threat than backstabs that hit for minimum damage, or low damage.

For normal melee attacks you generate the same amount of hate on a hit and a miss as far as I know. The EQEMU code backs this up as well.

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/cb866cba31eaaf03a779952c50fcbf9f4d6f5466/zone/attack.cpp#L1733


// Hate Generation is on a per swing basis, regardless of a hit, miss, or block, its always the same.


Backstab is a weird mechanic because it is calculated more like a normal melee attack. The formula looks like this:


RoundDecimal(Weapon Damage * ((Backstab Skill * 0.02) + 2)) * 2 * 2.85 = Max Backstab Damage.

As an example:
15 Weapon Damage * ((225 Backstab Skill * 0.02) + 2) = 97 Weapon Damage rounded down. 97 weapon damage * 2 * 2.85 percentage multiplier cap = 552.9 Max Backstab Damage. That is 553 rounded up.


I'd be curious to know if the hate generated from backstab uses the modified weapon damage of 97, the base weapon damage of 15, or something else. I haven't looked into how abilities like kick, bash, backstab, etc generate hate.

[Botten]

For normal melee attacks you generate the same amount of hate on a hit and a miss as far as I know. The EQEMU code backs this up as well.

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/cb866cba31eaaf03a779952c50fcbf9f4d6f5466/zone/attack.cpp#L1733



Backstab is a weird mechanic because it is calculated more like a normal melee attack. The formula looks like this:



I'd be curious to know if the hate generated from backstab uses the modified weapon damage of 97, the base weapon damage of 15, or something else. I haven't looked into how abilities like kick, bash, backstab, etc generate hate.

I have an old friend where I use to work who is a CS major and really good at code.

Would you have a link to the code for all of these formulas?

I would love to have them look over it and determine the aggro and the whole bow damage think in another thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have an old friend where I use to work who is a CS major and really good at code.

Would you have a link to the code for all of these formulas?

I would love to have them look over it and determine the aggro and the whole bow damage think in another thread.

If your friend hasn't played Everquest before, it may be a bit difficult for him to navigate the EQEMU code, as it has code for features that go past Velious. He will need to know that he must disregard code for AA's, Bane Damage, etc. The links I will post below go to the EQEMU github repo. Your friend should be familiar with how to use github.

From my understanding of hate generation, the weapon damage is acquired here:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/02f66de67955c24c7b18224e256fa21d436aa683/zone/attack.cpp#L1648

And the damage bonus for your main hand (if applicable) is acquired here:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/02f66de67955c24c7b18224e256fa21d436aa683/zone/attack.cpp#L1689

Both are basically just added together and applied to the hate value, which gets added to the hate list here:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/02f66de67955c24c7b18224e256fa21d436aa683/zone/attack.cpp#L1736

The formulas are built into the functions, and again they often have code that isn't used in P99. You can link your friend to my damage calculator as well, which condenses a lot of the EQEMU code into simpler formulas specific to P99, but I haven't added hate generation or bow formulas yet. Your friend would need to look through the EQEMU code to find the bow stuff.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/114boRjVuXonMhmnU9tOzGpiI8G_3ZNU-/view?usp=sharing

[Botten]

Yeah they haven't played Everquest before but thank you none the less. I sent it on to them.

[greatdane]

Shaman get more threat for a resisted Turgur's Insects than a landed one - because it dumps all 6 minutes of the accumulated threat per tick into you at once.

Whereas if you landed the Turgur's Insects, you get incremental threat per tick. So with a 1.7 minute Blind, if it gets resisted (which it will on raid mobs) you get ultra threat, which is why Bio Orb is a good opener for a tank on a raid.

That's not a thing. It just doesn't work like that. The only effects that build threat over time is DoTs. Resisted spells don't generate extra threat. That's player imagination at work.



I have played rogue alot on p99 as well, and it's a noticeable difference between threat on a low-damage backstab and a missed backstab. I heard a rumor that if you miss an attack, it gives you the same threat as if you hit for full damage - compared to hitting for low damage. People who play rogues will notice this - that missed backstabs typically generate more threat than backstabs that hit for minimum damage, or low damage.

That's not a thing, either. The threat generated by attacks doesn't vary based on the damage roll. For auto-attacks, it's always weapon_damage + damage_bonus. For backstab, it's probably weapon_damage * backstab_multiplier. Missed attacks don't somehow generate extra threat.

[sammoHung]

Curious about what people think regarding 2handers vs. 1handers at 55+

I've noticed on my warrior that the one-handers seem to consistently do more DPS than 2 handers like Reaver or Herbalist Spade.

Will that be different with a better two-hander?

I used to tank on Live back in the day, but I used a sword and board vs. raid mobs on a warrior.

Are 2 handers better DPS with a warrior? I remember an ogre warrior that used to be #1 DPS above the rogues and monks with a Shovel of the Harvest

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Curious about what people think regarding 2handers vs. 1handers at 55+

I've noticed on my warrior that the one-handers seem to consistently do more DPS than 2 handers like Reaver or Herbalist Spade.

Will that be different with a better two-hander?

I used to tank on Live back in the day, but I used a sword and board vs. raid mobs on a warrior.

Are 2 handers better DPS with a warrior? I remember an ogre warrior that used to be #1 DPS above the rogues and monks with a Shovel of the Harvest

When 2H weapon damage got improved, weapon advice generally shifted to "use 2h weapons". But 1H damage is still quite good, and a lot closer to 2H damage than people often think.

Looking at my Shadowknight:

1. ~70 DPS using the 2H weapon (https://youtu.be/Py96jk2NflU?feature=shared) Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge) (Proc DPS not included)

2. ~65 DPS using the 1H weapon (https://youtu.be/P5ouLQOBAoE?feature=shared) Frostwrath (https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostwrath) (Proc DPS not included)

Frostwrath has a 1.09 ratio, while Flamberge has a 1.045 ratio.

1H weapons tend to be more consistent DPS-wise, while 2H weapons tend to be more variable. That is one reason why 1H weapon parses can seem quite similar (or better) than 2H parses. This is especially true when the difference in average DPS between the two weapon sets isn't large. The average DPS difference between Frostwrath and Flamberge is only about 8%.

[shovelquest]

If your friend hasn't played Everquest before, it may be a bit difficult for him to navigate the EQEMU code, as it has code for features that go past Velious. He will need to know that he must disregard code for AA's, Bane Damage, etc. The links I will post below go to the EQEMU github repo. Your friend should be familiar with how to use github.

From my understanding of hate generation, the weapon damage is acquired here:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/02f66de67955c24c7b18224e256fa21d436aa683/zone/attack.cpp#L1648

And the damage bonus for your main hand (if applicable) is acquired here:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/02f66de67955c24c7b18224e256fa21d436aa683/zone/attack.cpp#L1689

Both are basically just added together and applied to the hate value, which gets added to the hate list here:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/02f66de67955c24c7b18224e256fa21d436aa683/zone/attack.cpp#L1736

The formulas are built into the functions, and again they often have code that isn't used in P99. You can link your friend to my damage calculator as well, which condenses a lot of the EQEMU code into simpler formulas specific to P99, but I haven't added hate generation or bow formulas yet. Your friend would need to look through the EQEMU code to find the bow stuff.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/114boRjVuXonMhmnU9tOzGpiI8G_3ZNU-/view?usp=sharing

I pasted these (10s of thousands lines of code, wow!!) into Chatgpt and asked it what the code does.

Amazing on all accounts.

FWIW i left out the //comments.. so that it could only look at the code and try to parse it, not what you said it is! Wild.

Short version: this is the melee-combat core for EQEmu. It decides what swing animation to play, which skill is used, whether the swing connects, how much damage it does after armor and bonuses, how much hate it generates, and what happens on death. It also houses all the class/level softcaps and heroic-stat hooks that shape avoidance, mitigation, and damage bonuses.

A typical swing goes like this. Mob::Attack picks the weapon and the correct animation (AttackAnimation) and figures out the base weapon damage against the target (GetWeaponDamage), including checks for magical/bane requirements, elemental add-damage, recommended level scaling, and hand-to-hand fallbacks. It adds damage bonus when appropriate (main-hand, 2H logic, off-hand with Sinister Strikes) and builds a DamageHitInfo with the used skill, offense value (offense()), and a to-hit value from GetTotalToHit, which layers in raw accuracy from skills, item/AA/spell accuracy mods, archery special handling, and auto-hit overrides.

DoAttack then runs the avoidance gauntlet via AvoidDamage in live order: riposte → block (including from behind if granted) → parry → dodge → shield block/two-hand-blunt block, with heroic strikethrough reducing those chances, AA/spell/item “10000” autoprocs forcing success, and positional checks (must be in front for parry, etc.). If the swing isn’t avoided—or is forced through by Strike Through—it rolls the actual hit chance with CheckHitChance: attacker accuracy vs defender avoidance (both turned into opposed random rolls), with ties coin-flipped.

If it’s a hit, damage is mitigated in MeleeMitigation. That uses the defender’s mitigation AC (GetMitigationAC feeding from ACSum) and the attacker’s offense in a D20-style roll (RollD20) that maps to a 0.1–2.0 multiplier on base damage, with optional armor-penetration and level-difference bonuses. The result is clamped and logged, then applied to the defender. Damage shields and reverse damage shields are applied in DamageShield. Hate is added every swing (AddToHateList) using subtlety/hatemod reductions, pet/owner mirroring, tunnel vision, and initial aggro bonuses, plus guard-assist behavior in PvP.

The big stat math is split out. compute_tohit and GetTotalToHit build attacker accuracy from offense/skill, intoxication/berserk tweaks, item/AA/spell accuracy and hit-chance effects, and archery penalties. compute_defense and GetTotalDefense build defender avoidance from defense skill, AGI (or heroic AGI), item mod2s, AA/spell avoidance, and intoxication. AC is aggregated in ACSum with item AC, shield AC, class/race bonuses (monk weight rules, rogue/beastlord AGI bumps, iksar racial), defense-skill contributions, spell/AA AC, softcap per class/level (GetACSoftcap) and softcap returns (GetSoftcapReturns) so anything over cap has diminished effect. Hand-to-hand damage and delay have both “revamp” and legacy tables. Weapon damage bonus (GetWeaponDamageBonus) follows live-like 1H/2H and delay-based formulas, with an alternate off-hand formula option.

There’s a lot of special-case game feel in here: dual-wield animation chance when delays match, stun chance when an NPC smacks a moving client from behind, PvP damage reductions (archery/throwing vs melee), low-level damage caps by class (DoDamageCaps), and a long list of immunities (melee immunity, magic-only, bane-only). On death (Client::Death / NPC::Death) it sends the packets, does exp loss and corpse creation, splits exp to group/raid, fires quest hooks, logs player events, and handles loot/rename logic and adventure counters.

If you want, I can trace a single swing end-to-end with your class, level, stats, weapon, and target to show exactly which numbers and rules fire.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I pasted these (10s of thousands lines of code, wow!!) into Chatgpt and asked it what the code does.

Amazing on all accounts.

FWIW i left out the //comments.. so that it could only look at the code and try to parse it, not what you said it is! Wild.

Yeah AI can be good when it comes to summarizing code. It isn't 100% accurate, so you typically need to go over the summary and confirm whether or not it has hallucinated in some areas.

I like that AI called skills like riposte "the avoidance gauntlet" lol.

10k lines of code isn't too much either. Modern game engines have millions of lines of code in them.

[shovelquest]

Yeah. I still can't believe that i can give it 10k lines of code and it will be able to tell me anything discernable from it.

Cool stuff DSM, as usual.

[sammoHung]

1H weapons tend to be more consistent DPS-wise, while 2H weapons tend to be more variable. That is one reason why 1H weapon parses can seem quite similar (or better) than 2H parses. This is especially true when the difference in average DPS between the two weapon sets isn't large. The average DPS difference between Frostwrath and Flamberge is only about 8%.

Yah, the consistency is what I'm after, heh. It's a long grind to 60.

I wonder how critical hits change this, or if any people with extensive warrior knowledge can piggyback on your sentiment.

Critical / Crippling blows with a 2-hander are quite absurd. 600+ crippling blows with a Reaver - but it's not consistent.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yah, the consistency is what I'm after, heh. It's a long grind to 60.

I wonder how critical hits change this, or if any people with extensive warrior knowledge can piggyback on your sentiment.

Critical / Crippling blows with a 2-hander are quite absurd. 600+ crippling blows with a Reaver - but it's not consistent.

I put in the critical / crippling blow formula into my DPS calculator recently. Haven't done extensive testing against P99, but here are the results.

This example is a 60 Warrior with 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK fighting a level 60 mob while berserking:

1. Horn of Hsagra + Blade of Carnage - Horn did 50,000 damage total. 3000 of that damage was Crippling Blows. Blade did 29,000 damage. 2500 of that damage was Crippling Blows. So 5500 Crippling Blow damage / 79,000 total damage = ~7% of your damage comes from Crippling Blows.

2. Reaver - 166,000 damage total. 13,600 of that damage was from Crippling Blows. So 13600 Crippling Blow Damage / 166000 total damage = ~8% of your damage comes from crippling blows.

RNG plays a factor on a per parse basis. But after doing the caluclations a few times, it looks like the percentage of Crippling Blow damage between 1H weapons and 2H weapons is similar on paper. Those 600+ damage hits do feel great though!

[Jimjam]

Yah, the consistency is what I'm after, heh. It's a long grind to 60.

I wonder how critical hits change this, or if any people with extensive warrior knowledge can piggyback on your sentiment.

Critical / Crippling blows with a 2-hander are quite absurd. 600+ crippling blows with a Reaver - but it's not consistent.
2handed
You don’t miss them when they don’t happen since they are rare, but you appreciate them when they do.

Vs

2hands
They happen often enough and small enough you just can accept them as part of the base dps rate.

An underdiscussed advantage of dw a fast pair is that at low hp they can spit out a bunch of crip blows, which can stun opponents thus reducing incoming dps or even letting you attack from rear fora while.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

An underdiscussed advantage of dw a fast pair is that at low hp they can spit out a bunch of crip blows, which can stun opponents thus reducing incoming dps or even letting you attack from rear fora while.

That is pretty cool! I always forget about the stun component. All of my monks weapons have stun procs, so i can see the appeal for sure.

[sammoHung]

That is pretty cool! I always forget about the stun component. All of my monks weapons have stun procs, so i can see the appeal for sure.

Oh man, I just rememberd when I had my Rod of Mourning on my first warrior. It was great for soloing the caster ghosts in TT.