Girdle of Living Thorns or Belt of Dwarf Slaying?

[Dundrige]

If you were a Paladin or Shadowknight, which would you get?

On one hand, the Dwarf Slaying Belt gives you 180 mana & Aura of Battle, while the Tunare belt gives you superior resists, Melee Stats, and a clicky that is situationally handy

[Keebz]

Dwarf belt by a mile.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you were a Paladin or Shadowknight, which would you get?

On one hand, the Dwarf Slaying Belt gives you 180 mana & Aura of Battle, while the Tunare belt gives you superior resists, Melee Stats, and a clicky that is situationally handy

Belt of Dwarf Slaying in most cases. If you are a Troll SK, Girdle might be better since they have a racial penalty to fire resist. You need a big fire resist piece somewhere. With that being said, there are other BiS or near BiS items with high fire resist, like cloak of the firestorm or earring of the living flame. So it would depend on the other gear you have or are planning for.

Personally for my troll SK i'd go Belt of Dwarf Slaying and cloak of the firestorm. Back slot is a bit weird for resists, so having your big fire resist piece there makes sense.

[Naethyn]

Why not both? https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Naethyn

[Zuranthium]

Why not both? https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Naethyn

Because not everyone is so fortunate!

I would want the Girdle first for a Paladin (+4 damage shield, +25 AC is stronger when facetanking than +10 ATK, +2 health regen) and the Belt first for a Shadow Knight.

[Ripqozko]

Because not everyone is so fortunate!

I would want the Girdle first for a Paladin (+4 damage shield, +25 AC is stronger when facetanking than +10 ATK, +2 health regen) and the Belt first for a Shadow Knight.

its like 2 months of raiding to get both in fuse, you could literally just potg and regrowth people for 2 months. fortune has nothing to do with it.

[Zuranthium]

That useless strawman again. RIP indeed.

[Ripqozko]

That useless strawman again. RIP indeed.

Sorry you are on red and cant get items easy. Try blue

[Zuranthium]

Sorry the only societal interaction you're capable of is living in an ezmode server that's been in Velious for 10 years and marred by 15 years of non-classic coding, try therapy.

[Dundrige]

Dwarf belt by a mile.

Why?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why?

Dwarf Belt has better all res, as you get MR/CR/FR instead of just FR from Girdle. DR/PR usually isn't prioritized, so those resists on girdle aren't too exciting for most people.

Aura of Battle is always nice too. ATK will slightly boost your DPS, which is always welcome on a Knight. The +2 HP Regen is nice as well when you aren't wearing Fungi.

As you said, the extra mana is nice as well.

[Ripqozko]

Sorry the only societal interaction you're capable of is living in an ezmode server that's been in Velious for 10 years and marred by 15 years of non-classic coding, try therapy.

red has been in velious for just as long, all 10 people on it.

[Keebz]

Why?

INT/WIS, AoB.

Two things you want on a hybrid. Mana, ATK and HP regen are evergreen for you.

As for the other stats:

15 PR / 15 DR are worth basically nothing.

15 STA is nice, but you'll STA cap elsewhere.

DEX / AGI aren't great, but you're capping with Avatar anyway.

The clickie is nice for a reset, but the actual effect is 4 damage shield. Nifty, but not making a difference and only relevant for face tanking.

Remember you rolled a hybrid and not a pure melee. You're garbage without mana.

[Zuranthium]

The clickie is nice for a reset, but the actual effect is 4 damage shield.

It gives 25 AC too. Or is this part of the supposed "AC doesn't work properly after reaching the softcap" problem on p99?

red has been in velious for just as long

With far less people farming and a play environment that's more classic than Blue, thanks to the inherent added danger and ability to contest content that PvP brings.

Not that this is relevant to the thread anyway. Do you love to strawman so much because those are the only human-like entities that will allow you to have physical contact with them?

[Ripqozko]

It gives 25 AC too. Or is this part of the supposed "AC doesn't work properly after reaching the softcap" problem on p99?



With far less people farming and a play environment that's more classic than Blue, thanks to the inherent added danger and ability to contest content that PvP brings.

Not that this is relevant to the thread anyway. Do you love to strawman so much because those are the only human-like entities that will allow you to have physical contact with them?

do you like that strawman because those are the only 10 people you can communicate with on red?

[Naethyn]

DS > all

[Naethyn]

but get both

[Snaggles]

If you are taking hits the girdle is objectively better. Yaulp4 and it doesn’t stack.
If not, AoB is better than Thorncoat.

Ideally both but if you have to pick, get the Girdle and a turtle belt for like 50k on blue.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you are taking hits the girdle is objectively better. Yaulp4 and it doesn’t stack.
If not, AoB is better than Thorncoat.

Ideally both but if you have to pick, get the Girdle and a turtle belt for like 50k on blue.

I am not so sure about that, at least on a Paladin who is actively Yaulping. Since Spikecoat and Yaulp4 don't stack, this produces an interesting wrinkle.

Mobs swing every 2 seconds, unless they are hasted or slowed. This means 4 damage shield will do 2 DPS (4 damage / 2 seconds) if the mob hits every time. Obviously that doesn't happen unless you are spamming sit. At a 70% hit rate, you'd get like 1.4 DPS with Spikecoat. This assumes the mob isn't slowed, casting spells, running, etc.

AoB + Yaulp4 gives you +26 ATK. Let's assume the Paladin is already max STR, so the STR isn't helping DPS. According to my DPS calculator, a 60 Paladin with Great Spear of Dawn (53/46 2h weapon), 61% Haste (41% worn + 20% from eyepatch), and 255 STR would gain roughly 1.4 DPS as well from +26 ATK.

Yaulp4 gives 15 AC compared to Spikecoats 25 AC. But remember than AoB gives HP regen, so you are still getting a defensive bonus in exchange for -10 AC.

They are both pretty comparable in most scenarios. AoB will have the advantage if you are slowing mobs or fighting casters. If you are fighting a raid mob that flurries, then spikecoat will have the advantage. But that does assume you have a buff slot for spikecoat for that raid encounter.

[Naethyn]

Unresistable damage is special.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Unresistable damage is special.

Both white damage and damage shield can be "resisted" via a miss. In the case of white damage, it is your miss. In the case of damage shield, it is the mob's miss.

Damage shields are more consistent than white damage, as their damage value never changes. High level raid mobs will also probably have a higher hit chance than the player, and they can do things like flurry. This means more hits on the damage shield.

Damage shields are also subject to becoming less effective in certain scenarios, however, such as the mob being slowed or the mob casting a spell. If you use Willsapper and slow the mob by 35%, the DPS from spikecoat goes down to 0.9 DPS. If you have a Shaman in your group it'll go down to like 0.4 DPS. In that case the ~1.4 DPS from the +26 ATK via Yaulp4 + AoB is going to be better.

[Naethyn]

Max ds on aow is worth 3 rogues.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Max ds on aow is worth 3 rogues.

This thread is about Paladins or Shadowknights getting Girdle. Unless the meta has changed recently, only Warriors are tanking AoW. Also Spikecoat is 4 damage, not the maximum possible damage shield damage value.

[Naethyn]

We’re tanking vulak with clerics we aren’t far off from a knight aow. Warriors are dps now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We’re tanking vulak with clerics we aren’t far off from a knight aow. Warriors are dps now.

I personally wouldn't suggest that a Knight should get a Girdle just for the hypothetical scenario that Knights may tank AoW at some point in the future. Right now AoW tanking is still done by Warriors.

I assume a Knight tanking AoW would need to have even better gear than what is required for a Warrior to offset the lack of Warrior disciplines. So you would need to be a BiS or near BiS Knight, which is going to take a while.

[Allishia]

I personally wouldn't suggest that a Knight should get a Girdle just for the hypothetical scenario that Knights may tank AoW at some point in the future. Right now AoW tanking is still done by Warriors.

I assume a Knight tanking AoW would need to have even better gear than what is required for a Warrior to offset the lack of Warrior disciplines. So you would need to be a BiS or near BiS Knight, which is going to take a while.

Didn't Captain bevellos steal aow from warriors? He is a paladin too /nod

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Didn't Captain bevellos steal aow from warriors? He is a paladin too /nod

Welcome back Allishia! If a Player Paladin got as swole as Bvellos HP-wise, they could tank AoW just fine. One can dream!

[Keebz]

It gives 25 AC too. Or is this part of the supposed "AC doesn't work properly after reaching the softcap" problem on p99?


Doesn't stack with shielding (stave, be bp, hammer) or yaulp, so if you're soloing it's not getting you anything but 4ds at the expense of some HP / MR or whatever yaulp does.

As for raiding, you're probably not tanking anything let alone something that needs an extra 4DS.

Meanwhile, int / wis and AoB are always fire.

[Zuranthium]

Doesn't stack with shielding (stave, be bp, hammer) or yaulp, so if you're soloing it's not getting you anything but 4ds at the expense of some HP / MR or whatever yaulp does.

It's more armor than shielding and yaulp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's more armor than shielding and yaulp.

Spikecoat is only 10 more AC than Yaulp, and AoB gives you +2 HP regen, which is also a defensive benefit.

Major Shielding is 23 AC instead of 25 AC, and Major Shielding gives you HP and MR too.

2-10 AC from spikecoat isn't significant enough to claim Spikecoat is better than Yaulp4 + AoB or Major Shielding + AoB.

Dain Hammer (Arch Shielding) gives 35 AC, so it's better AC-wise anyway.

[Zuranthium]

Spikecoat is only 10 more AC than Yaulp, and AoB gives you +2 HP regen, which is also a defensive benefit.

It's still 10 more AC. I was responding to them saying it does nothing besides the +4 damage shield.

You didn't include bash in your calculation for damage shields, btw.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's still 10 more AC. I was responding to them saying it does nothing besides the +4 damage shield.


Oh I see. Thanks for the clarification!


You didn't include bash in your calculation for damage shields, btw.

Indeed, good catch! Kicks/bashes occur every 8 seconds. So you'd get an extra (4 damage / 8 seconds) * 0.7 = 0.35 DPS with a 70% hit rate.

I also didn't take into account Double Attack. You would basically be doing 2 DPS base not including Kick/Bash with Spikecoat. Mobs 40ish+ should have 200 double attack skill, which is a 50% chance to double attack. The mob would get 70/100 mainhand hits, plus 35/50 double attack hits. So you could say they are hitting ~100 times out of 100 swings with a 70% hit rate.

This is what the DPS would look like for both setups:

Spikecoat:
1. ~2.4 DPS on unslowed unhasted mob that doesn't flurry
2. ~1.5 DPS on 35% slowed mob (Willsapper)
3. ~0.6 DPS on 75% slowes mob (Shaman Slow)

Yaulp4 + AoB with Great Spear of Dawn against Shady Swashbuckler (~700 AC mob):
1. ~3.5 DPS (100% Haste using the 40 STR from Yaulp4)
2. ~2.0 DPS (100% Haste already STR capped)
3. ~3.0 DPS (61% Haste using the 40 STR from Yaulp4)
4. ~1.5 DPS (61% Haste already STR capped)

Both can be better than the other depending on the situation. I prefer AoB + Yaulp4 looking at these numbers, as buffing a player to increase their DPS is less dangeous than letting a mob stay unhasted. It's not worth gaining maybe 0.4-0.9DPS via spikecoat.

[Naethyn]

Does bash benefit from haste?

[Zuranthium]

Does bash benefit from haste?

NPC's bash the same amount regardless of being slowed or not, or at least that's how it's supposed to be.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Does bash benefit from haste?

NPC's bash the same amount regardless of being slowed or not, or at least that's how it's supposed to be.

https://youtu.be/oPxeOVuX0G8?feature=shared

Looking at the logs from my Ionat fight, it looks like slow does affect kick/bash for mobs. Kick/bash interval goes from 8 seconds to 32 seconds, which is the expected result with a 75% slow.

[Snaggles]

I am not so sure about that, at least on a Paladin who is actively Yaulping. Since Spikecoat and Yaulp4 don't stack, this produces an interesting wrinkle.

Mobs swing every 2 seconds, unless they are hasted or slowed. This means 4 damage shield will do 2 DPS (4 damage / 2 seconds) if the mob hits every time. Obviously that doesn't happen unless you are spamming sit. At a 70% hit rate, you'd get like 1.4 DPS with Spikecoat. This assumes the mob isn't slowed, casting spells, running, etc.

AoB + Yaulp4 gives you +26 ATK. Let's assume the Paladin is already max STR, so the STR isn't helping DPS. According to my DPS calculator, a 60 Paladin with Great Spear of Dawn (53/46 2h weapon), 61% Haste (41% worn + 20% from eyepatch), and 255 STR would gain roughly 1.4 DPS as well from +26 ATK.

Yaulp4 gives 15 AC compared to Spikecoats 25 AC. But remember than AoB gives HP regen, so you are still getting a defensive bonus in exchange for -10 AC.

They are both pretty comparable in most scenarios. AoB will have the advantage if you are slowing mobs or fighting casters. If you are fighting a raid mob that flurries, then spikecoat will have the advantage. But that does assume you have a buff slot for spikecoat for that raid encounter.

Yaulp4’ing is more dps (it’s about 40 displayed attack; doesn’t stack with SoN or Shissar). It it’s also more APM. Skipping it for Spikecoat lets you devote that action to self-casting the HoT, more aggro spells, or focusing on other stuff like clickies and positioning. The girdle is also a long duration junk buff that stacks with most everything like the Coldain ring. The worst part is the lack of mana which for a pally or SK is something to think about.

Maybe I was rounding up with “objectively better”. If I’m tanking for 20-40+ people one of the first things I give up is Yaulping, as good as the spell is for normal use. My slider is all the way cranked to being a good aggro tank, Soulfire clicking, or swapping to a more beneficial class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe I was rounding up with “objectively better”. If I’m tanking for 20-40+ people one of the first things I give up is Yaulping, as good as the spell is for normal use. My slider is all the way cranked to being a good aggro tank, Soulfire clicking, or swapping to a more beneficial class.

I agree that yaulping isn't really worth much while raiding. I was focusing more on solo/group content where you are more likely to care about 2 DPS.

In raiding neither yaulp or spikecoat will matter much, unless you are trying to max damage shield for a specific target like AoW. Raid targets usually aren't in dire need of 2 DPS from the tank. You also generally have less buff slots available in raids, so you may not have room for spikecoat or yaulp anyway.

[Duik]

What it boils down to is (for the non p99 tragic 24/7 camper) is that either one is good. If you (tragically) must get both.
Do it.
Either one is FUCKING EXCELLENT UNLESS YOU WANT TO GET BOTH. Then do that.

TL;DR.

Only motherfucking brain dead 24/7 raiders give two fucks between the differences.

Sure aim for your preferences. But an INSTANT CAST advantagous buff of AC and DS is good in many situations.

An AoB affect is also good.

Get the one you can. Unless you are able to get both.

Pls send tell if you are disappointed with either...

[Allishia]

The spike coat stacks with fos too, major shielding line doesnt. And it's a nice instant click junk buff /nod

[kjs86z2]

lol naethyn

[Jimjam]

The spike coat stacks with fos too, major shielding line doesnt. And it's a nice instant click junk buff /nod

This is good info. Never knew shielding line had stacking issues with ds coats. Thanks for sharing this knowledge.