Claw of Lightning is disappointing (ranger)

[Snaggles]

I have been able to sit down and spend more time parsing different setups on my ranger. I presumed the CoL to be at least comparable to the Swiftwind but at least in my testing it seems to be lagging behind when averaging Ring War and Hall of Testing kills. It also has pretty marginal stats compared to the Kunark epic.

Ultimately for a 20% worse ratio, the 50 attack at least seems to make up for it. Maybe there is a break-point where with enough attack it will shine but today in HoT I couldn’t see a parse that tipped it as an advantage, even with bard songs and Avatar at 1537 attack when the Swiftwind setup was 1587. With this attack my highest parses still came from the 2h but I didn’t have enough tears or control to run accurate averages. I’ll keep plunk away though as my sample groups are small.

Does anyone have differing thoughts or examples for the ranger? I’ve tried a Meljeldin, BoF/Claw, and BoF/Swiftwind. With and without proccing a primal. I have 41% worn haste so the claw added haste is a moot topic.

For the rogue I feel it might make sense. It’s a solid offhand ratio and 1% extra haste if you are main-handing the epic (or cycling it for backstabs). I’m just speculating on this.

[Snaggles]

I have no idea what autocorrect did to this, it was late:

“With this attack my highest parses still came from the 2h but I didn’t have enough tears or control to run accurate averages”

I expect I meant small sample groups and with the bard songs on and off it was difficult to get concise data.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What you are experiencing looks correct according to my DPS calculator (see my signature for link). Using the following stats for each weapon:

60 Ranger, 255 STR, 100% Haste (No Baton Procs) fighting a level 50 Warrior mob:

1.BoF/Claw = 80 DPS Average (74 DPS to 84 DPS Range)
2. BoF/Swiftwind (No ATK bonus) = 74 DPS Average (70 DPS to 77 DPS Range)
3. BoF/Swiftwind (+30 ATK from Swiftwind) = 78 DPS Average (72 DPS to 81 DPS Range)

With only a 2 DPS difference in favor of Claw, it's going to be hard to see Claw doing better, because parses are going to have variation. You can see the DPS range is between 7 and 10 for the different weapon sets.

Can you post the logs? Or PM them to me?

[Snaggles]

Sure. I’ll get some better logs in the next couple weeks with self-buffs if that’s ok. It wouldn’t be against raid level mobs but if anything that would give the nod to the Claw over the Swiftwind. The Swiftwind actually displays 50 attack so your math makes sense. It’s a lot to overcome (ratio wise) since stuck in the offhand.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sure. I’ll get some better logs in the next couple weeks with self-buffs if that’s ok. It wouldn’t be against raid level mobs but if anything that would give the nod to the Claw over the Swiftwind. The Swiftwind actually displays 50 attack so your math makes sense. It’s a lot to overcome (ratio wise) since stuck in the offhand.

Yeah I don't mind as long as you let me know what buffs you have on for the logs.

The display for ATK on the client is incorrect as far as I know. You can get an estimate for the difference between how much ATK you get from one thing over another, but not the precise number. If you knew for certain how much ATK a specific item/buff gave, you could probably do a conversion. I'd need to do some more testing on that. I am not 100% sure if all worn items/clickie spells use the max level for the spell. For the invigorate BP's, they were patched to use the higher level value for the heals. I did some testing with Ragefire Gloves (worn firefist) and concluded it was probably using the minimum value of 5, since I got less ATK than AoB.

Wiki says +30 ATK for Swiftwind. That's where I got the number, but wiki could be wrong too for all I know.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did a quick test with some overlap on items between Shamwowi and Bazgek:

1. Firefist (Worn) = +8 ATK on sheet
2. Grim Aura (Spell) = +13.x ATK on Sheet
3. Aura of Battle (Worn) = +13.x ATK on Sheet
4. Aura of Battle (Spell) = +13.x ATK on Sheet
5. Primal Avatar (Spell) = + 134 ATK on Sheet

It looks like the pattern is the actual ATK value is being multiplied by roughly 1.34 on the sheet. I say 13.x for some spells because wearing two AoB items gives +27 ATK total, so there is clearly a decimal present.

This means:

1. Firefist (Worn) = +6 ATK (Minimum level spell value)
2. Grim Aura (Spell) = +10 ATK ( Maximum level spell value)
3. AoB (Worn and Spell) = +10 ATK (No difference)
4. Primal Avatar (Spell) = +100 ATK

This matches the Wiki values. Swiftwind giving 50 ATK on sheet is a bit strange, as that implies the Swiftwind buff gives 37 ATK. That is a bit of a strange number. Are you getting exactly 50? Can you try equipping Swiftwind without any buffs on to see if you get a different value on your character sheet? Also make sure you have the same STR before and after you put on Swiftwind, or some of that ATK will come from STR as well.

If I had to guess, Swiftwind is giving +30 ATK as per the Wiki, and that extra 7 ATK comes from the extra STR Swiftwind is giving. Claw has +8 STR, and Swiftwind has +15 STR.

[Snaggles]

It’s a good theory but my strength was 255 after Focus with all the weapons used.
I remember it being less per the wiki but always found it a pleasant surprised being an exact 50. As if the client is displaying properly? Not sure.

I’ll check this and my AoB waist as well. For some reason I thought that displays like 14 but it’s been a while since I checked (and that could be the Str as well).

[Ripqozko]

ive tried to tell folks that spending that dkp on 1h is a waste for most part, grab a cek if ya wanna dps.

[Samoht]

It's pretty standard for Swiftwind to be permanently glued to secondary on a ranger. The attack buff makes it better than anything else.

Ranger DPS comes from white swings, and applying the 50 attack to every white swing is pretty huge.

Now you just need to find a matching main hand to go with it.

[kjs86z2]

ive tried to tell folks that spending that dkp on 1h is a waste for most part, grab a cek if ya wanna dps.

rips been showing his parses for years and theres still people worrying about 1 handers lol

[Goregasmic]

rips been showing his parses for years and theres still people worrying about 1 handers lol

A couple months ago common belief was ranger AC capped around 100 and it has been parsed to hell and back and when someone actually bothered parsing it, it was inaccurate. We still don't know what the actual caps are.

What are you going to do on a 25 years old game emulator other than mess around anyway.

[bcbrown]

A couple months ago common belief was ranger AC capped around 100 and it has been parsed to hell and back and when someone actually bothered parsing it, it was inaccurate. We still don't know what the actual caps are.

Careful you don't overstate conclusions. What Sogundordor and I found was that against level 40-45 mobs, worn AC has an effect. Sogundordor found that against a storm giant escort, adding AC up to around 200 reduces damage taken in a similar manner to SKs. What I found is that against Shiel Glimmerspindel, worn AC has an effect up to around 160 in a similar manner to a Cleric and a Druid.

What I discovered (or re-discovered, as I learned nothing Torven hadn't already found) was that there's mob-specific squelch points above which adding AC provides little or no benefit, and that the benefit of AC is effectively just shifting the ratio between max-hit and min-hit. There's almost certainly a lower squelch point below which losing AC doesn't increase damage taken.

My understanding of what the "ranger AC is broken and doesn't matter" people have been saying is that it's specific to tanking harder raid mobs. I would caution against extrapolating results tanking easy blues all the way out to tanking red raid mobs. I can think of several ways consistent with my findings that could lead to "ac doesn't matter" against those kinds of targets.

Furthermore, even if AC does matter when raid tanking, rangers aren't gonna be a good choice. Your only defensive-minded discipline lets you act as a speed bump for 15 seconds. Your Defense skill is lower. Gearing for tanking is gonna have tradeoffs with resists or DPS.

On topic, I suspect that if you get some good parses, you'll find that the +attack of Swiftwind leads to a higher hit percentage, and a high proportion of hits will be at or above the "2*damage + bonus" modal value. One interesting experiment would be to use a piercing or 1hb mainhand and get some parses with and without the swiftwind. That'll give you a sense of exactly how the +attack is helping and might give some insight into exactly where the crossover point is between added attack and a better ratio.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On topic, I suspect that if you get some good parses, you'll find that the +attack of Swiftwind leads to a higher hit percentage, and a high proportion of hits will be at or above the "2*damage + bonus" modal value. One interesting experiment would be to use a piercing or 1hb mainhand and get some parses with and without the swiftwind. That'll give you a sense of exactly how the +attack is helping and might give some insight into exactly where the crossover point is between added attack and a better ratio.

Attack doesn't help your hit percentage. Hit percentage is determined by Offense Skill and Weapon Skill.

Attack will help your damage rolls.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah, that's why I mentionned the "100 worn AC cap" claim, which I've often seen. Doesn't make ranger tanking gods because they seem to suffer from lower defense past 50. 100 isn't hard to reach and that advice is highly detrimental to all rangers doing solo/group content.

I don't think you should extrapolate results from easy blues to high end raid content either but the other way around is also true; you can't extrapolate a parse from vulak to discredit the value of AC for easy blue mobs. I suspect with around ~250ac you would probably get good returns for most of the group content, which is good unless all you do is raid.

All this to say I don't see the value of giving flak to people testing stuff even if it gives the expected results.

[bcbrown]

Attack doesn't help your hit percentage. Hit percentage is determined by Offense Skill and Weapon Skill.

Attack will help your damage rolls.

Adding strength can increase your hit percentage. I assume that's because adding strength increases your attack but I don't know.

All this to say I don't see the value of giving flak to people testing stuff even if it gives the expected results.

Fully agree!

[Jimjam]

I have subscribed to this thread and eagerly await the following pages.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Adding strength can increase your hit percentage. I assume that's because adding strength increases your attack but I don't know.


This is incorrect. The only things that affect your hit percentage are Offense Skill and Weapon Skill.

Attack and Strength affect damage rolls.

[bcbrown]

I ran an experiment on my 60 druid against Bloodmaw a while back. The only difference was adding Girdle of Karana for +42 strength. I was a little surprised, but the hit % jumped from 76% to 90%.

[Snaggles]

ive tried to tell folks that spending that dkp on 1h is a waste for most part, grab a cek if ya wanna dps.

I know but I wanted a BoF anyways. I didn’t expect it would be more than something to play with.

Velious was won with Kunark gear. Burning DKP is just giving reasons to keep playing.

rips been showing his parses for years and theres still people worrying about 1 handers lol

Nobody is worried. I’ve been parsing for years too

I’m just trying to determine if someone has a chance to pick up a CoL for a small bit of DKP if it’s even worth it.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I ran an experiment on my 60 druid against Bloodmaw a while back. The only difference was adding Girdle of Karana for +42 strength. I was a little surprised, but the hit % jumped from 76% to 90%.

Your sample size is probably too small. I'd run more tests with more swings. If your claim is 42 STR gives you 14% more hit rate, that is a pretty bold claim. That is a huge boost for a relatively small amount of STR.

EQEMU code shows Offense Skill and Weapon Skill for to hit calculations.

[Solist]

A couple months ago common belief was ranger AC capped around 100 and it has been parsed to hell and back and when someone actually bothered parsing it, it was inaccurate. We still don't know what the actual caps are.

What are you going to do on a 25 years old game emulator other than mess around anyway.

What bullshit are you talking about?
We did this over a decade ago. Why do you think it became common vernacular in the first place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What bullshit are you talking about?
We did this over a decade ago. Why do you think it became common vernacular in the first place.

Can you actually post the data? Saying you did something without evidence is not really worth much. Never seen the data for quite a few things "done a decade ago", and it never gets posted.

[bcbrown]

What bullshit are you talking about?
We did this over a decade ago. Why do you think it became common vernacular in the first place.

I'd love to get your thoughts on the last four pages of the Ranger AC Parsing thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438517&page=10. What I found against a level 40 mob was that:
* Cleric, Druid, Ranger all saw similar benefits to adding AC
* The impact of AC is to change the ratio of max hit to min hit
* Above ~160 AC there was no more benefit to adding AC against this mob because there were almost no max hits
* The "squelch point" where there's no marginal benefit to adding more AC is mob-dependent

I'm explicitly not drawing any conclusions about ranger AC against raid targets. When you talk about ranger AC not mattering, are you talking about versus xp mobs, versus raid mobs, or both?

[Salaryman]

RED99

I have a Guardian Robe and SwiftWind.

RED99

[Jimjam]

RED99

I have a SwiftWind.

RED99

Try cutting down on dairy, hun x

[Salaryman]

Try cutting down on dairy, hun x

RED99

Sir jim, we are discussing the Ranger AC CAP, the fac tthat I have the rarest item in the game (Guardian Robe) is the utmost relevant, did I mention my Cleric has a Aegis of Life aswell? Beacuse I am the top #1 Number 1 #1 PVPER in All of EverQuest History.

Now that is settled I will be accepting consultations about mew glorious Guardian Robe and how it effects my mitigation (it doesnt because the ranger ac cap is so low)

RED99

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I ran an experiment on my 60 druid against Bloodmaw a while back. The only difference was adding Girdle of Karana for +42 strength. I was a little surprised, but the hit % jumped from 76% to 90%.

Yeah I thought this looked fishy. Even 300 swings should be enough data when parsing really low level mobs at level 60. I've done a lot of Corudoth (level 5 mob) parsing, so I have a pretty good feel for that. Bloodmaw is for sure level 5 or under. You can tell because he doesn't dodge/parry/riposte. Mobs gain those abilities at the same levels their specific class does. Warriors don't get dodge until 6.

I did two tests on Bloodmaw with my Shaman using Epic spear:

1. 166 STR - 410 Hits, 36 Misses = 92% hit rate
2. 255 STR + 100 ATK (Primal Avatar) - 415 Hits, 33 Misses = 92.6%

Almost 100 STR and 100 ATK did nothing for my hit rate in this scenario. I get a ~90% hit rate on Corudoth with my SK, Monk, and Shaman.

My guess is you probably accidentally pulled in some extra misses by accident, or your parser did if you used one.

[bcbrown]

Yeah, I re-checked the logs, and it's 233 hits and 27 misses at 145 str vs 253/26 at 187. Ran a parse earlier tonight and got ~90% with both 132 and 199 str. No effect on hit% from +str.

Dunno how I got the wrong number of misses earlier. Good catch!

[Goregasmic]

What bullshit are you talking about?
We did this over a decade ago. Why do you think it became common vernacular in the first place.

When I researched how to gear a ranger a couple months ago I came a lot of threads (not all) stating the AC cap for ranger is around 100ac worn if ac is not downright useless "and its been parsed a ton before" (parses that were never provided).

"We" parsed it a couple weeks back and it turns out there's a hidden AC cap based on mob level and you benefit up until that point. The cap seem to be the same across all classes too, rangers being no exception. It is also much higher than previously thought. Rangers getting trampled post 50 compared to knights/war seemed to be an avoidance problem more than a mitigation one.

See the link bcbrown gave you if you want to learn more.

[TytosOfEight]

When I researched how to gear a ranger a couple months ago I came a lot of threads (not all) stating the AC cap for ranger is around 100ac worn if ac is not downright useless "and its been parsed a ton before" (parses that were never provided).

"We" parsed it a couple weeks back and it turns out there's a hidden AC cap based on mob level and you benefit up until that point. The cap seem to be the same across all classes too, rangers being no exception. It is also much higher than previously thought. Rangers getting trampled post 50 compared to knights/war seemed to be an avoidance problem more than a mitigation one.

See the link bcbrown gave you if you want to learn more.

The data doesn’t demonstrate this though, you’re just assuming this to be the case at higher levels, as no one has provided that data for higher levels. For example, the testing done so far at lower levels may not of hit the (upper) soft cap yet. Lots of other people who have done their own testing suggest that ranger AC is broken at higher levels. So this still remains to be seen.

[Jimjam]

The cap seem to be the same across all classes …. Rangers getting trampled post 50 compared to knights/war seemed to be an avoidance problem more than a mitigation one.

Tick in the box for ranger - lower avoidance = more ds = more dps. Best tank!!

[TytosOfEight]

I’ve done my own testing at level 60 on Geonids and there was no difference in terms of damage mitigation between 100ac on my Ranger, whereas my Monk saw a fairly meaningful difference. So there does seem to be differences between classes.

[Snaggles]

When people ask me what they should do, I tend to say “get droppable haste and a shovel or Meljeldin”. If pushed, I say just upgrade the MH (whatever and whenever you can) and keep the Swiftwind. Even this route is a huge bump in a typical EC ranger’s DPS. I feel it is solid advice but is based on uncontrolled testing and a bit of dogma.

Many questions are still out there. I’ve got the time next month, the gear, and the curiosity. Hopefully with some help, a thread with answers will be possible.

[Goregasmic]

I’ve done my own testing at level 60 on Geonids and there was no difference in terms of damage mitigation between 100ac on my Ranger, whereas my Monk saw a fairly meaningful difference. So there does seem to be differences between classes.

Parses or it never happened.

We'd have to know your ranger AC before and after the 100ac increase and non-velious raid geared monks probably have much lower than 200ac worn so yes, an AC increase would benefit them more. But monks also have better mitigation so without detailed data we don't know where the difference would come from but so far it doesn't seem to be AC for the level ranges tested.

My only "claim" is there seems to be a 160ac hard cap on level 40 mobs and a 200ac hard cap on level 45 mobs, regardless of classes tested. The parses showed it so this is pretty much undisputable. No one can claim AC is useless on a ranger. Without further parses on higher level mobs it is hard to pinpoint where and why the wheels fall off for rangers.

Geonids are 44-48 IIRC so I suspect the results wouldn't be wildly different compared to the lvl 45 mob but without detailed parses we'll never know.

This is a post about the claw of lightning though so if people feel strongly about ranger AC, lets go discuss it in the appropriate thread.

[bcbrown]

The data doesn’t demonstrate this though, you’re just assuming this to be the case at higher levels, as no one has provided that data for higher levels. For example, the testing done so far at lower levels may not of hit the (upper) soft cap yet. Lots of other people who have done their own testing suggest that ranger AC is broken at higher levels. So this still remains to be seen.

Yes. The only data that I provided in that thread demonstrates that against a level 40 mob, a druid, cleric, and ranger all have similar response to adding AC; that there's no cap whether hard or soft up to 160 worn ac; that adding ac makes otherwise-max-hits into min hits; and that above a (mob-specific) "squelch point" of 160 ac for this mob there's no longer much if any value to ac. Sogundordor provided data against a level 45 mob with a ranger and sk that are in line with my conclusions. No one has yet provided similar data against higher mobs.

I’ve done my own testing at level 60 on Geonids and there was no difference in terms of damage mitigation between 100ac on my Ranger, whereas my Monk saw a fairly meaningful difference. So there does seem to be differences between classes.

I think you missed a couple words. Between 100 ac and what? I would be very appreciative if you read through that thread, especially the last 4-5 pages, and added some data from your testing. Ideally hit distribution charts similar to the ones I provided.

And I have an open offer to anyone who wants to do some ac parsing to heal them on either blue or green.

[TytosOfEight]

Parses or it never happened.

We'd have to know your ranger AC before and after the 100ac increase and non-velious raid geared monks probably have much lower than 200ac worn so yes, an AC increase would benefit them more. But monks also have better mitigation so without detailed data we don't know where the difference would come from but so far it doesn't seem to be AC for the level ranges tested.

My only "claim" is there seems to be a 160ac hard cap on level 40 mobs and a 200ac hard cap on level 45 mobs, regardless of classes tested. The parses showed it so this is pretty much undisputable. No one can claim AC is useless on a ranger. Without further parses on higher level mobs it is hard to pinpoint where and why the wheels fall off for rangers.

Geonids are 44-48 IIRC so I suspect the results wouldn't be wildly different compared to the lvl 45 mob but without detailed parses we'll never know.

This is a post about the claw of lightning though so if people feel strongly about ranger AC, lets go discuss it in the appropriate thread.

I'm not linking parse because I'm not digging through my log files to find it, and I don't care much if you believe it or not. My point still stands about higher levels though.

Having said that, my ranger AC went from 1055 to 1160 (no difference on Geonids after 60 kills - 30 in each AC group). On my Monk, his AC was higher, and it was something like 1170 and 1260, and he saw a fairly meaningful difference in damage mitigation on the same mobs.

Feel free to test it yourself.

Regarding the main point of this thread: I find my Cek sword more frustrating than BoF/SW overall, because it just misses so many damn swings. My BoF/SW feels more consistent overall, albeit with fewer high parses.

[Ripqozko]

My BoF/SW feels more consistent overall, albeit with fewer high parses.

thats the whole point, you will get fewer higher parses with 1h, minus like 3 raid targets.

sure it may "feel better" but its not, generally speaking. RNG will RNG.

[TytosOfEight]

thats the whole point, you will get fewer higher parses with 1h, minus like 3 raid targets.

sure it may "feel better" but its not, generally speaking. RNG will RNG.

So to be clear: on Vindi, for example, my Cek will range from 65 to 85dps, whereas my BoF/SW will fairly consistently sit in 75ish dps region. I also find my Cek to parse worse on many ToV named vs. BoF/SW.

[Ripqozko]

So to be clear: on Vindi, for example, my Cek will range from 65 to 85dps, whereas my BoF/SW will fairly consistently sit in 75ish dps region. I also find my Cek to parse worse on many ToV named vs. BoF/SW.

Right and we seen parses as high as mid 90s with cek on vindi with really good rng, something bof can never do. If ya comfy with 75 across board cool, if ya want a higher ceiling then cek. From my rng I'm not sure I've gotten a 65 on vindi with cek, at worst been around 70 with bad rng. I'll take my chances with having the ability to go higher .

[TytosOfEight]

Right and we seen parses as high as mid 90s with cek on vindi with really good rng, something bof can never do. If ya comfy with 75 across board cool, if ya want a higher ceiling then cek. From my rng I'm not sure I've gotten a 65 on vindi with cek, at worst been around 70 with bad rng. I'll take my chances with having the ability to go higher .

That's a fair point. The highest I've had with Cek is 94, but I've had a fair few where I've struggled to hit the high 60s. It's the inconsistency that I find frustrating.

[Ripqozko]

That's a fair point. The highest I've had with Cek is 94, but I've had a fair few where I've struggled to hit the high 60s. It's the inconsistency that I find frustrating.

Way I see it is high 60s to 75 ain't much difference, but 94 to 75 is. Take the ceiling

[Snaggles]

Vindi is the most relatable target but those parses can be very short. My max off-Avatar Cek was 73 and best off-avatar silver whip/claw was 67. I haven’t had the chance to parse as much on Vindi after moving the toon to ST for the last year or two.

In HoT the BoF/Swiftwind is a consistent performer. The Cek can rival monk figures with luck so definitely has a larger spread.

I’m guessing the final tests will confirm what we all expect will happen. DW has gone unpatched while 2h has seen at least a couple damage table updates. I’m of the belief that even classic 2h’s from Kunark have purpose. Hopefully if anything, one can squint at the other classes using some of this info. There are warriors with bagged Twisted Steel swords who equip blue blades to DPS…

[kjs86z2]

i always thought rip said aary was the best

[Snaggles]

I’ll have to revisit Shady Swashbuckler. It’s a 7 min respawn and always level 45. Can snare by the zone to North Ro and log a ton of dps. I recall it has some very weird AC mechanic that guts your damage output.

[TytosOfEight]

Our Guild get a lot of Vindi kills, so this is about 6 months of Vindi kills. I got my BoF about the same time as my Cek, but mostly used my Cek. On all of these parses I had a primal proc at one point or another. I had 50 Vindi kills using my Cek sword and
15 using my BoF/Sw. Overall, the dps with my Cek was 70.9 and the dps with my BoF/SW was 70.8.

Cek
DPS Time Damage
69 110 8118
61 95 5970
72 150 10852
93 58 5436
74 284 21257
69 179 12456
64 182 11734
65 137 8914
60 222 13455
77 143 11143
69 177 12267
62 93 5803
73 224 16574
71 204 14684
76 151 11490
84 253 21380
71 218 15599
78 104 8211
68 158 10829
76 251 19304
62 364 22690
71 288 20708
69 220 15286
66 139 9181
76 195 14975
79 251 19985
68 117 8034
70 189 13344
63 213 13613
73 162 11880
73 150 11016
67 138 9365
78 173 13519
80 212 17004
57 112 6453
63 205 12944
73 242 17711
56 184 10345
70 221 15645
62 104 6511
74 101 7501
63 226 14382
80 190 15259
69 172 11967
70 196 13910
68 138 9388
79 186 14826
75 123 8304
67 208 13942
68 199 13677
70.9 9011 638841

BoF/SW
DPS Time Damage
68 210 14304
74 132 9803
68 124 8489
72 145 10404
57 147 8414
77 143 11022
73 156 11447
68 147 10094
66 142 9445
73 280 20621
73 173 12683
61 142 8709
71 197 14158
78 196 15397
73 104 7653
70.8 2438 172643

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Our Guild get a lot of Vindi kills, so this is about 6 months of Vindi kills. I got my BoF about the same time as my Cek, but mostly used my Cek. On all of these parses I had a primal proc at one point or another. I had 50 Vindi kills using my Cek sword and
15 using my BoF/Sw. Overall, the dps with my Cek was 70.9 and the dps with my BoF/SW was 70.8.

Cek
DPS Time Damage
69 110 8118
61 95 5970
72 150 10852
93 58 5436
74 284 21257
69 179 12456
64 182 11734
65 137 8914
60 222 13455
77 143 11143
69 177 12267
62 93 5803
73 224 16574
71 204 14684
76 151 11490
84 253 21380
71 218 15599
78 104 8211
68 158 10829
76 251 19304
62 364 22690
71 288 20708
69 220 15286
66 139 9181
76 195 14975
79 251 19985
68 117 8034
70 189 13344
63 213 13613
73 162 11880
73 150 11016
67 138 9365
78 173 13519
80 212 17004
57 112 6453
63 205 12944
73 242 17711
56 184 10345
70 221 15645
62 104 6511
74 101 7501
63 226 14382
80 190 15259
69 172 11967
70 196 13910
68 138 9388
79 186 14826
75 123 8304
67 208 13942
68 199 13677
70.9 9011 638841

BoF/SW
DPS Time Damage
68 210 14304
74 132 9803
68 124 8489
72 145 10404
57 147 8414
77 143 11022
73 156 11447
68 147 10094
66 142 9445
73 280 20621
73 173 12683
61 142 8709
71 197 14158
78 196 15397
73 104 7653
70.8 2438 172643

Yeah that also lines up with my calculator. Average DPS between the two weapon sets is quite close.

[Salaryman]

RED99

SwiftWind is better because it has a lightning graphics and I am LiteNingHoof

RED99

[Jimjam]

RED99

SwiftWind is better because it has a lightning graphics and I am LiteNingHoof

RED99

It's a good argument, and honestly Liteninghoof is probably my fave personality on red. No one else even tries to have fun.

[Ripqozko]

Our Guild get a lot of Vindi kills, so this is about 6 months of Vindi kills. I got my BoF about the same time as my Cek, but mostly used my Cek. On all of these parses I had a primal proc at one point or another. I had 50 Vindi kills using my Cek sword and
15 using my BoF/Sw. Overall, the dps with my Cek was 70.9 and the dps with my BoF/SW was 70.8.

Cek
DPS Time Damage
69 110 8118
61 95 5970
72 150 10852
93 58 5436
74 284 21257
69 179 12456
64 182 11734
65 137 8914
60 222 13455
77 143 11143
69 177 12267
62 93 5803
73 224 16574
71 204 14684
76 151 11490
84 253 21380
71 218 15599
78 104 8211
68 158 10829
76 251 19304
62 364 22690
71 288 20708
69 220 15286
66 139 9181
76 195 14975
79 251 19985
68 117 8034
70 189 13344
63 213 13613
73 162 11880
73 150 11016
67 138 9365
78 173 13519
80 212 17004
57 112 6453
63 205 12944
73 242 17711
56 184 10345
70 221 15645
62 104 6511
74 101 7501
63 226 14382
80 190 15259
69 172 11967
70 196 13910
68 138 9388
79 186 14826
75 123 8304
67 208 13942
68 199 13677
70.9 9011 638841

BoF/SW
DPS Time Damage
68 210 14304
74 132 9803
68 124 8489
72 145 10404
57 147 8414
77 143 11022
73 156 11447
68 147 10094
66 142 9445
73 280 20621
73 173 12683
61 142 8709
71 197 14158
78 196 15397
73 104 7653
70.8 2438 172643

Bof never hit 80, cek did and some at times . Really in end doesn't matter but the highs of cek is something bof can't achieve

[Ripqozko]

Bof never hit 80, cek did and some more at times . Really in end doesn't matter but the highs of cek is something bof can't achieve

[Snaggles]

While I don’t dispute the dominance (and affordability) of a Meljeldin, with a short parse a lucky extra double attack means a lot more.

For example:
Dps Time Total Damage
93 58 5436

Remove one double attack for a max round of 275x2 and you get 84dps from this same parse. In a similar way, it’s entirely possible a big crit (warrior or BFG) or rogue double backstab will push a parse far higher in a sub 1min fight than it would on an 6+ minute one. I know crits are not relevant in this situation but just using as an example why a bit of lucky RNG can mean a lot more with less time to smooth out that curve.

Also, I haven’t added up all that damage and divided by time on target to get a true average. Maybe that would be a more accurate way to measure this data (presuming buffs are the same)?

Finding that balance between raid-level mitigation, controlling variables (buffs), and surviving for 10+ minutes of parsing is the hard part.

Anyway, great data!! I have a lot of Vindi parses at this point and while I can’t recall all the specifics of each my own testing generally tips to favor the 2h. It’s a bruiser even with EC haste and Shissar.

[kjs86z2]

no raid mob is not going to die over a rangers weapon choice

[Snaggles]

no raid mob is not going to die over a rangers weapon choice

A+ contribution. Liked and Subscribed.

[TytosOfEight]

While I don’t dispute the dominance (and affordability) of a Meljeldin, with a short parse a lucky extra double attack means a lot more.

For example:
Dps Time Total Damage
93 58 5436

Remove one double attack for a max round of 275x2 and you get 84dps from this same parse. In a similar way, it’s entirely possible a big crit (warrior or BFG) or rogue double backstab will push a parse far higher in a sub 1min fight than it would on an 6+ minute one. I know crits are not relevant in this situation but just using as an example why a bit of lucky RNG can mean a lot more with less time to smooth out that curve.

Also, I haven’t added up all that damage and divided by time on target to get a true average. Maybe that would be a more accurate way to measure this data (presuming buffs are the same)?

Finding that balance between raid-level mitigation, controlling variables (buffs), and surviving for 10+ minutes of parsing is the hard part.

Anyway, great data!! I have a lot of Vindi parses at this point and while I can’t recall all the specifics of each my own testing generally tips to favor the 2h. It’s a bruiser even with EC haste and Shissar.


The last line on each parse group is just that - the total damage / time. It showed basically the same overall dps for both weapons.

[Ennewi]

no raid mob is not going to die over a rangers weapon choice

Oakwynd should be a weapon of choice for rangers by now. This long into SoV, let at least one or two rangers live the dream.

[Snaggles]

The last line on each parse group is just that - the total damage / time. It showed basically the same overall dps for both weapons.

Oh thanks. I’m seeing that now but recall you mentioned this when you initially posted it.

[TytosOfEight]

Yes. The only data that I provided in that thread demonstrates that against a level 40 mob, a druid, cleric, and ranger all have similar response to adding AC; that there's no cap whether hard or soft up to 160 worn ac; that adding ac makes otherwise-max-hits into min hits; and that above a (mob-specific) "squelch point" of 160 ac for this mob there's no longer much if any value to ac. Sogundordor provided data against a level 45 mob with a ranger and sk that are in line with my conclusions. No one has yet provided similar data against higher mobs.



I think you missed a couple words. Between 100 ac and what? I would be very appreciative if you read through that thread, especially the last 4-5 pages, and added some data from your testing. Ideally hit distribution charts similar to the ones I provided.

And I have an open offer to anyone who wants to do some ac parsing to heal them on either blue or green.

I couldn’t find my monk log files (probably on a different partition), so I parsed more: I did 20 Geonids with 1237 AC and 20 Geonids with 1312 AC, a difference of 75 AC. I expected to see at least a small difference, but with 1237 AC I took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 23851 / time 1922) and with 1312 AC I also took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 25296 / time 2052). No difference.

On my ranger, I did 30 Geonids with 1055 AC and took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 31149 / time 2966); and did 30 Geonids with 1160 AC and also took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 33635 / time 3218). No difference again.

So you must be correct, that AC is related to a mobs atk and that ranger AC is working correctly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I couldn’t find my monk log files (probably on a different partition), so I parsed more: I did 20 Geonids with 1237 AC and 20 Geonids with 1312 AC, a difference of 75 AC. I expected to see at least a small difference, but with 1237 AC I took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 23851 / time 1922) and with 1312 AC I also took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 25296 / time 2052). No difference.

On my ranger, I did 30 Geonids with 1055 AC and took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 31149 / time 2966); and did 30 Geonids with 1160 AC and also took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 33635 / time 3218). No difference again.

So you must be correct, that AC is related to a mobs atk and that ranger AC is working correctly.

AC wouldn't be "broken" for Rangers specifically. EQEMU code doesn't have special exceptions for Rangers in the mitigation code. Mitigation uses Defense Skill, AGI, and AC.

The first place Rangers have an issue is with their lower defense. They have like 32 less Defense than a Warrior/Paladin/SK. Using my damage calculator, if Vindi was a Ranger instead of a Warrior, he would be taking about 5-6 more DPS on average from a player 60 ranger using Meljeldin. This is from the lower Defense skill.

Theres a second possible place where Rangers have an issue, but I did not include it in my calculator. If AC softcaps do exist on P99, they can be based on what armor type your class wears. In the EQEMU code they do have a place where they specify armor softcaps for Cloth, Leather, Chain, and Plate.

Unsuprisingly, Plate has the highest softcap value, and the other armor types have lower softcaps. Since Rangers use Chain rather than Plate, they could be getting AC softcapped sooner than Warriors/Paladins/SKs.

[bcbrown]

I couldn’t find my monk log files (probably on a different partition), so I parsed more: I did 20 Geonids with 1237 AC and 20 Geonids with 1312 AC, a difference of 75 AC. I expected to see at least a small difference, but with 1237 AC I took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 23851 / time 1922) and with 1312 AC I also took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 25296 / time 2052). No difference.

On my ranger, I did 30 Geonids with 1055 AC and took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 31149 / time 2966); and did 30 Geonids with 1160 AC and also took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 33635 / time 3218). No difference again.

So you must be correct, that AC is related to a mobs atk and that ranger AC is working correctly.

Thanks for going back and running an experiment! If you don't mind sharing the logs either here or in DM I'd like to generate hit distribution graphs like the ones I posted in the ranger AC thread. I'll bet that they all have <3% max hits and around 30% min hits.

I wish the "What is this bullshit we parsed this a decade ago" people would explain what they're talking about because if they're talking about xp mobs I'm pretty sure they're wrong. If they're talking about raid mobs I remain open to the possibility that something is broken, but I would love to see some data showing that.

If in fact the "ranger AC is broken" thing is pure folklore here's my speculation on how it came to be:

* Ranger is an inherently inferior tank due to lower skill caps on defensive skills
* Because rangers are usually pulling or adding DPS and since gear choices always have tradeoffs, most people gear their ranger for strength, dex, and resists. And since all the ranger races start out with fairly low str/sta/dex there's more ground to make up there too.
* Because of those first two points, when a ranger is forced to step in and tank, the healer's gonna notice the difference compared to other tanks
* Because there's mob-specific hardcaps on the impact of AC, it's easy to accidentally run an experiment and conclude AC has no impact
* Because most people look at DPS instead of a hit distribution histogram, it's harder to tell exactly what AC is doing

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I wish the "What is this bullshit we parsed this a decade ago" people would explain what they're talking about because if they're talking about xp mobs I'm pretty sure they're wrong. If they're talking about raid mobs I remain open to the possibility that something is broken, but I would love to see some data showing that.


They probably won't provide data sadly. I've asked them before, and they haven't provided anything yet. But we can always hope.


If in fact the "ranger AC is broken" thing is pure folklore here's my speculation on how it came to be:

* Ranger is an inherently inferior tank due to lower skill caps on defensive skills


This is probably the reason. 32 less Defense skill at 60 will be noticeable. Defense affects both mitigation and how often you get hit. It's even worse for a good portion of the server's timeline, because Rangers are capped at 200 Defense skill until the Oct 1, 2001 patch. So people have experienced playing a Ranger with 52 less Defense skill at level 60.

As I said in the post before, if AC softcaps do exist on P99, Rangers may be getting softcapped sooner than Warriors/Paladins/SKs as well. This is because Rangers use Chain instead of Plate, and the EQEMU code does have the option to specify softcaps for Cloth, Leather, Chain, and Plate.

So Rangers kinda get screwed on both Defense Skill and AC. I assume the idea was Rangers are better at dodging/parrying/etc. That's the idea in Dungeons and Dragons, but it doesn't really work in practice on P99.

[Jimjam]

Wasn't there a big AC overhaul just over 10 years ago, so if the position is "we parsed this like 10 years ago" then it may not be relevant to how the mechanics currently are?

re rangers being balanced by dodge/parry, I have seen posters claim that dodge/parry is not using math from 199-2001 but post pop where things got rejigged thanks to the ever growing skill caps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wasn't there a big AC overhaul just over 10 years ago, so if the position is "we parsed this like 10 years ago" then it may not be relevant to how the mechanics currently are?

re rangers being balanced by dodge/parry, I have seen posters claim that dodge/parry is not using math from 199-2001 but post pop where things got rejigged thanks to the ever growing skill caps.

There have been quite a few patches in the last 10 years, so I agree it is a little silly to simply assume all tests done back then are still valid today.

It would be cool if dodge/parry/riposte and AGI played a bigger part in reducing damage.

[Goregasmic]

I couldn’t find my monk log files (probably on a different partition), so I parsed more: I did 20 Geonids with 1237 AC and 20 Geonids with 1312 AC, a difference of 75 AC. I expected to see at least a small difference, but with 1237 AC I took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 23851 / time 1922) and with 1312 AC I also took 12.4 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 25296 / time 2052). No difference.

On my ranger, I did 30 Geonids with 1055 AC and took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 31149 / time 2966); and did 30 Geonids with 1160 AC and also took 10.5 dps worth of damage (Dmg to PC 33635 / time 3218). No difference again.

So you must be correct, that AC is related to a mobs atk and that ranger AC is working correctly.

Thanks for taking the time!

Can you tell us what's your worn AC before gear switches?

I guess the 1.9dps difference is from avoidance?

If AC softcaps do exist on P99, they can be based on what armor type your class wears. In the EQEMU code they do have a place where they specify armor softcaps for Cloth, Leather, Chain, and Plate.

Unsuprisingly, Plate has the highest softcap value, and the other armor types have lower softcaps. Since Rangers use Chain rather than Plate, they could be getting AC softcapped sooner than Warriors/Paladins/SKs.

Haynar said the low level (<51) AC softcap was lvl*6+25, meaning 325 @50. We saw with the ranger parses this is MUCH MUCH higher than actual mob cap so this doesn't really make sense to me unless you're doing vox/naggy? Or a TOV twink in his 50s actually raiding?

IIRC the mobs are tuned differently on here than EQemu, especially for velious so they tweaked AC differently so it makes more sense. Don't know how much we can rely on EQemu for AC over here.

They also stated that warriors gain 45% AC over softcap so that part seem to be class based but how many rangers raid with 400 worn for this to even matter?

There have been quite a few patches in the last 10 years, so I agree it is a little silly to simply assume all tests done back then are still valid today.

It would be cool if dodge/parry/riposte and AGI played a bigger part in reducing damage.

... I was wondering if anyone ever tested if agi raised avoidance in parses? People came up with how much AC agi gives but the AC total is a composite number of mitigation+avoidance IIRC. If you're above mob AC cap (ie: 200@45) MAYBE agi gives an avoidance boost? This is pure speculation.

[TytosOfEight]

Thanks for taking the time!

Can you tell us what's your worn AC before gear switches?

I guess the 1.9dps difference is from avoidance?



Haynar said the low level (<51) AC softcap was lvl*6+25, meaning 325 @50. We saw with the ranger parses this is MUCH MUCH higher than actual mob cap so this doesn't really make sense to me unless you're doing vox/naggy? Or a TOV twink in his 50s actually raiding?

IIRC the mobs are tuned differently on here than EQemu, especially for velious so they tweaked AC differently so it makes more sense. Don't know how much we can rely on EQemu for AC over here.

They also stated that warriors gain 45% AC over softcap so that part seem to be class based but how many rangers raid with 400 worn for this to even matter?



... I was wondering if anyone ever tested if agi raised avoidance in parses? People came up with how much AC agi gives but the AC total is a composite number of mitigation+avoidance IIRC. If you're above mob AC cap (ie: 200@45) MAYBE agi gives an avoidance boost? This is pure speculation.

I didn't explain the difference between ranger and monk damage because it wasn't really the point of the discussion. But, the reason my ranger took less damage overall (compared to my monk) was because he was using Earthcaller and Silver Whip of Rage. Otherwise, he would have taken way more damage than my monk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

... I was wondering if anyone ever tested if agi raised avoidance in parses? People came up with how much AC agi gives but the AC total is a composite number of mitigation+avoidance IIRC. If you're above mob AC cap (ie: 200@45) MAYBE agi gives an avoidance boost? This is pure speculation.

The EQEMU shows that AGI does affect avoidance. It just isn't a large amount. I included this in my weapon DPS calculator.

According to my weapon DPS calculator, 255 AGI basically gives you the equivalent of 32 Defense skill points when it comes to the check that determines if you get hit or not.

Most of the time you won't have 1 AGI, so you won't feel the full 32 Defense skill points as you increase AGI. An Ogre who starts with 75 AGI will already have 9 out of those 32 Defense skill points naturally. So you'll only really see a gain of up to 23 Defense Skill points as you approach 255 AGI.

255 AGI is basically the equivalent of 64 Defense skill when it comes to reducing the damage you take. However, Defense skill only plays a small role in damage reduction. 64 Defense skill is like 12 worn AC.

I've come to see AGI as something like Parry2. It gives you a small chance to avoid an attack like Parry, but it's not a large amount. Obviously it can help you reduce damage, it just isn't a large enough boost to focus on getting 255 AGI. If you have a free buff slot, might as well ask for an AGI buff. But you won't be asking for AGI as a raid tank, you'll be at max buffs with more important buffs.

[Snaggles]

I didn't explain the difference between ranger and monk damage because it wasn't really the point of the discussion. But, the reason my ranger took less damage overall (compared to my monk) was because he was using Earthcaller and Silver Whip of Rage. Otherwise, he would have taken way more damage than my monk.

I recall mentioning something similar to this in that AC thread. The best way for a ranger to win at tanking is to “cheat” like they do so well. Outside bump, two 50% slow options (one being like 500p) as well as the Silver Whip of Rage. Stack procs, not AC. And pray slow lands.

[Goregasmic]

The EQEMU shows that AGI does affect avoidance. It just isn't a large amount. I included this in my weapon DPS calculator.

According to my weapon DPS calculator, 255 AGI basically gives you the equivalent of 32 Defense skill points when it comes to the check that determines if you get hit or not.

Most of the time you won't have 1 AGI, so you won't feel the full 32 Defense skill points as you increase AGI. An Ogre who starts with 75 AGI will already have 9 out of those 32 Defense skill points naturally. So you'll only really see a gain of up to 23 Defense Skill points as you approach 255 AGI.

255 AGI is basically the equivalent of 64 Defense skill when it comes to reducing the damage you take. However, Defense skill only plays a small role in damage reduction. 64 Defense skill is like 12 worn AC.

I've come to see AGI as something like Parry2. It gives you a small chance to avoid an attack like Parry, but it's not a large amount. Obviously it can help you reduce damage, it just isn't a large enough boost to focus on getting 255 AGI. If you have a free buff slot, might as well ask for an AGI buff. But you won't be asking for AGI as a raid tank, you'll be at max buffs with more important buffs.

Yeah fair point. Not entirely usebless but by the time you optimized ac/hp/str/sta and even dex/mana there's not much room left for agi unless you got insane gear. Not worth sacrificing anything over agi.

[TytosOfEight]

I recall mentioning something similar to this in that AC thread. The best way for a ranger to win at tanking is to “cheat” like they do so well. Outside bump, two 50% slow options (one being like 500p) as well as the Silver Whip of Rage. Stack procs, not AC. And pray slow lands.

The Silver Whip of Rage is the best offhand imo, for both soloing and raids. For soloing, it often procs multiple times while I'm waiting for an Earthcaller proc, which saves a good chunk of HP. For raids, it has a nice ratio, +25 mr and a rune shield proc that takes the edge of nasty AOEs. It's an amazing weapon that often goes cheap.

[Snaggles]

The Silver Whip of Rage is the best offhand imo, for both soloing and raids. For soloing, it often procs multiple times while I'm waiting for an Earthcaller proc, which saves a good chunk of HP. For raids, it has a nice ratio, +25 mr and a rune shield proc that takes the edge of nasty AOEs. It's an amazing weapon that often goes cheap.

Yea I paid too much for my whip a few years ago but it still has a purpose. Nice in HoT or any time you want to walk around with an extra 25mr. I might use it a bit more for offhand work though now that you mention it.

[kjs86z2]

confirmed rune whip bis for any scenario where you'd have to stop damage and seek shelter til you can be healed up

[Solist]

Thanks for going back and running an experiment! If you don't mind sharing the logs either here or in DM I'd like to generate hit distribution graphs like the ones I posted in the ranger AC thread. I'll bet that they all have <3% max hits and around 30% min hits.

I wish the "What is this bullshit we parsed this a decade ago" people would explain what they're talking about because if they're talking about xp mobs I'm pretty sure they're wrong. If they're talking about raid mobs I remain open to the possibility that something is broken, but I would love to see some data showing that.

If in fact the "ranger AC is broken" thing is pure folklore here's my speculation on how it came to be:

* Ranger is an inherently inferior tank due to lower skill caps on defensive skills
* Because rangers are usually pulling or adding DPS and since gear choices always have tradeoffs, most people gear their ranger for strength, dex, and resists. And since all the ranger races start out with fairly low str/sta/dex there's more ground to make up there too.
* Because of those first two points, when a ranger is forced to step in and tank, the healer's gonna notice the difference compared to other tanks
* Because there's mob-specific hardcaps on the impact of AC, it's easy to accidentally run an experiment and conclude AC has no impact
* Because most people look at DPS instead of a hit distribution histogram, it's harder to tell exactly what AC is doing


What are you talking about.

I have two rangers. One in vulak gear. Other in garbage SS etc.

With 300 ac difference they take identical damage in every parse. And a best in slot ranger (another 150ac) tanks identical too.

This is not the case for any other class. It’s been tested extensively.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s been tested extensively.

You need to post that data if you want people to listen. I don't think anybody in this thread has seen the data you are talking about.

[bcbrown]

What are you talking about.

I have two rangers. One in vulak gear. Other in garbage SS etc.

With 300 ac difference they take identical damage in every parse. And a best in slot ranger (another 150ac) tanks identical too.

This is not the case for any other class. It’s been tested extensively.

Look at what I posted in https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438517&page=10 and the next four pages and tell me what I'm missing.

Or post some data.

[Snaggles]

I promised to do more testing and may revisit this in a new thread comparing the Meljeldin to the BoF+Claw. It ended up being a pain proccing Avatar before every parse but at least I feel the test was as accurate as could be with roughly 60,000 hps (10x shady kills) with each setup.

PS: sorry for the formatting. Also, I didn’t use the BoF since I would have to edit out the 100dd as it would skew the testing. This NPC has Dain-like mitigation.

Offhand Test: Swiftwind vs Claw
Shady Swashbuckler, level 45 npc, 6k hps, max hit 114
Snared to start fight, dark cloak of sky + Yeli gloves (91% self haste)
When fleeing would face npc so not to bypass npc's defensive skills

Silver Whip of Rage + Swiftwind + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1489 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 130 46 241 65 24
Shady 2 139 43 263 68 22
Shady 3 128 46 248 68 24
Shady 4 127 47 250 68 24
Shady 5 137 43 269 68 22
Shady 6 118 51 253 68 23
Shady 7 112 53 234 68 25
Shady 8 137 44 274 68 22
Shady 9 122 49 259 65 23
Shady 10 129 46 251 67 23
Shady Set 1279 47 2542 68 23

Silver Whip of Rage + Claw of Lightning + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1448 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 114 52 245 65 24
Shady 2 134 45 272 65 22
Shady 3 111 54 249 65 24
Shady 4 127 47 272 60 22
Shady 5 122 49 258 65 23
Shady 6 138 43 267 62 22
Shady 7 118 50 254 65 23
Shady 8 133 45 268 65 22
Shady 9 126 47 253 63 23
Shady 9 129 46 268 65 22
Shady Set 1252 48 2606 65 23


Summary: basically 47 dps vs 48 dps, win goes to the claw.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I promised to do more testing and may revisit this in a new thread comparing the Meljeldin to the BoF+Claw. It ended up being a pain proccing Avatar before every parse but at least I feel the test was as accurate as could be with roughly 60,000 hps (10x shady kills) with each setup.

PS: sorry for the formatting. Also, I didn’t use the BoF since I would have to edit out the 100dd as it would skew the testing. This NPC has Dain-like mitigation.

Offhand Test: Swiftwind vs Claw
Shady Swashbuckler, level 45 npc, 6k hps, max hit 114
Snared to start fight, dark cloak of sky + Yeli gloves (91% self haste)
When fleeing would face npc so not to bypass npc's defensive skills

Silver Whip of Rage + Swiftwind + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1489 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 130 46 241 65 24
Shady 2 139 43 263 68 22
Shady 3 128 46 248 68 24
Shady 4 127 47 250 68 24
Shady 5 137 43 269 68 22
Shady 6 118 51 253 68 23
Shady 7 112 53 234 68 25
Shady 8 137 44 274 68 22
Shady 9 122 49 259 65 23
Shady 10 129 46 251 67 23
Shady Set 1279 47 2542 68 23

Silver Whip of Rage + Claw of Lightning + CoTP + SoN + Avatar. Max STR, 1448 attack

Fight Time DPS Hits Max Hit Average Hit
Shady 1 114 52 245 65 24
Shady 2 134 45 272 65 22
Shady 3 111 54 249 65 24
Shady 4 127 47 272 60 22
Shady 5 122 49 258 65 23
Shady 6 138 43 267 62 22
Shady 7 118 50 254 65 23
Shady 8 133 45 268 65 22
Shady 9 126 47 253 63 23
Shady 9 129 46 268 65 22
Shady Set 1252 48 2606 65 23


Summary: basically 47 dps vs 48 dps, win goes to the claw.

Thank you very much for spending the time and posting the results! I appreciate the detail and buff list. It's really cool that Rangers can get +195 ATK with this setup, and can go over 200 with AoB.

This matches with my calculator as well. Claw of Lightning in offhand is ~1 DPS higher.

It seems like Shady has around 700 AC since he is getting you down to 48 DPS. This is assuming 200 Defense skill, as he is level 45.

[Snaggles]

Thanks DSM!

It’s a weird mob. Less glamorous than a real raid target but I can solo it and it’s easy to find up. I would encourage people to try it as well with their own setups to see if they can draw trends as well. Maybe while just sitting in the tunnel looking for their next impulse buy? :)

[Crede]

I regret spending money/time on ranger 1h. Just go silver swiftblade, woodmans staff, then cek 2h. Pick up a swarmcaller as well. They can't tank for shit so less riposte is ideal.

[Snaggles]

Yea my obsessive curiosity wasted a lot of DKP. Swapping stuff around kills time during a ring war or HoT though.

The most efficient path for dps classes is just to get a really good 2h. It’s often cheaper as well unless that 2h is an Abashi but nobody cries over that spend.

[Ripqozko]

Yea my obsessive curiosity wasted a lot of DKP. Swapping stuff around kills time during a ring war or HoT though.

The most efficient path for dps classes is just to get a really good 2h. It’s often cheaper as well unless that 2h is an Abashi but nobody cries over that spend.

Lucky for monks bo staff is 2nd bis and way cheaper than 1h options

[Snaggles]

Lucky for monks bo staff is 2nd bis and way cheaper than 1h options

Totally, I guess the logic still holds up. Don’t get distracted by flashy things. 2h and send it.

[Ennewi]

Totally, I guess the logic still holds up. Don’t get distracted by flashy things. 2h and send it.

There's always that small chance push interrupt makes a return, which would add significant value to 1-handed weapons. So maybe not wasted DKP.

[Ripqozko]

There's always that small chance push interrupt makes a return, which would add significant value to 1-handed weapons. So maybe not wasted DKP.

since this server is infinite and nothing else to do, i dont think its wasted dkp. it is the lesser way to go tho atm.

[Snaggles]

There's always that small chance push interrupt makes a return, which would add significant value to 1-handed weapons. So maybe not wasted DKP.

It would be fun if that came back. I still think DW has advantages and disadvantages. I carry all this junk everywhere I go and am always changing it up :) .

since this server is infinite and nothing else to do, i dont think it’s wasted dkp. it is the lesser way to go tho atm.

Yea, basically this. I’m not sure any choice here is a “waste” if you are having fun. If you are on a tight raid budget, a 2h just seems to be the best move.

[Zuranthium]

Cleanse yourselves of Velious gear. Nothing beyond Kunark allowed in order to have fun.

Well, we can allow some weapons for balance purposes. The baseline is Monks don't get any gear better than Kunark and go from there. Wizards can get any Velious gear tho, cause they need it (also Magicians, in this current broken code where chain casting pets dumps aggro on the caster).

[Ennewi]

since this server is infinite and nothing else to do, i dont think its wasted dkp. it is the lesser way to go tho atm.

Plus there's always fashionquest, and the benefit from Mark of Karn. Push interrupt was the real selling point though personally, even just for soloing/grouping.

[Andyman1022]

There's always that small chance push interrupt makes a return, which would add significant value to 1-handed weapons. So maybe not wasted DKP.

Is there always a chance that Ennewi will return to the fold? Us former KWSM in Fuse miss you!

[Ennewi]

Is there always a chance that Ennewi will return to the fold? Us former KWSM in Fuse miss you!

Never say never. Better chance of warders respawning or blue/green merging though. Sorry I don't got magic wand IRL.

[kjs86z2]

vyemm whip still very very good when dmg taken is a legit consideration and would cause you to stop dps and heal up

depending on your affinity for wort pots, etc...could be the smart choice

its just so damn good

[greatdane]

Out of curiosity, how close is Ragebringer to the best rogue weapons?

[PatChapp]

It has the same backstab damage,but is much slower.
Usually the vulak dagger is considered the best at 15/19. True tryhards will swap in the ragebringer(if they aren't offhanding it) for the +atk on backstabs.
I understand their is circumstances where the vyemm fang can be superior to the vulak dagger

[Snaggles]

In the offhand? While the attack is really nice, 15/25 is worse than 13/21 so the CoL is generally considered an upgrade outside hover-swapping.

I’d speculate on MH and general combos but they are just hunches and I’m certain to get spiked hard by those who actually play the class :). I still need to do some more ranger parse combos. Maybe next week.