Experience: How it really works, bad info on the Wiki

[Crass]

I was curious how many kills are needed at each level, so I tabulated the formulas on the wiki. Of course I eventually I found the original calculator in the wayback machine (https://web.archive.org/web/20010305114113/http://eq.stratics.com/crmaps/eqexp.html#expand), which does include the numbers of kills needed at each level.

So the answer is that each non-hell level below 50 takes around 40-50 kills of even cons, or 50-60 blues, and then between double and 5x that on the way to level 60.

Anyway, more useful to the community is that there is still some seriously outdated and conflicting information about group XP sharing and class/race modifiers.

The "How experience works (https://wiki.project1999.com/Experience#How_Experience_Works)" section of the wiki is just a verbatim P99 forum post from 2010 with no sources (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24405). It stresses the importance of XP totals which would be dramatically different for classes with different XP modifiers- and suggests that groups should avoid inviting hybrid classes like shadowknights. Whether or not it's true, this is obviously a pretty harmful conclusion.

However, it should be removed, because it's not true at all. Class and race penalties have been gone from P99 for ten years (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211758). This is even linked on the page and mentioned (though only class penalties). However, all the tables of penalties and the verbatim P99 post remain.

Ironically, there is even a complaint on that very page about bad (unrelated) information influencing players for "nearly a decade".

If someone with time and wiki skills can help bring that page up to date, it could go a long way for helping new players avoid the frustration and discrimination associated with class EXP penalties- which, as it turns out, have been imaginary since 2015.

For the record, we might also want to start addressing whether we should be putting so much faith into ZEM, which Rogean confirmed is not accurate for P99 (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3102180&postcount=84).

[loramin]

If only wikis somehow came with a way for motivated people to improve them ...

[WarpathEQ]

I tend to look at EXP gains on an hourly basis. I find it to be a good equalizer that accounts for differences in mob cons, kill times, spawn rates, number of mobs, and just overall effeciency. Its anecdotle evidence but at the end of the day it boils down to the root of how much time invested vs. what is the outcome.

Also simplifies your life from worrying about ZEM, mob kill counts or exp numbers, etc. Keep it simple.

[Goregasmic]

IIRC exp penalties are removed because it is a timeline thing and the info will still be valid if there's a new server during the appropriate eras.

Most high level hunting spots have a significant mob level variance so it would make it very hard to calculate the number you need precisely, even assuming you always do the same camp in the same zone with the same setup unless you're doing something like grik the exiled. HS north mob level is 42-50 and places like seb disco is 40-55.

And then yeah, you have ZEM to take into account, which no one knows the true values. You'd have to do something like half a level on a level 45 mob in a zone you expect is 100%ZEM and then do the other half on a level 45 mob in another zone and compare the numbers it took. Not many people would do that.

[Crass]

If only wikis somehow came with a way for motivated people to improve them ...

I was thinking we could do the community thing where one person finds and reports the issue while others who have access can make the edits, because of course wiki account registrations are closed (https://wiki.project1999.com/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Main+Page), my fellow friendly forum user.

[Jimjam]

People having misinformation and prejudicing against hybrids is classic.

[Crass]

Its anecdotle evidence but at the end of the day it boils down to the root of how much time invested vs. what is the outcome.


I suspect the real ZEM is nothing like the posted numbers at all, and varies with the zone popularity and possibly other factors. My own anecdote: I just solo'd 19-23 in EK on lvl 15-16 Undead Reavers. I was flying through levels while practically AFK- very easy mobs, only at night, killing 'til OOM and medding. I estimate around 30 kills per level- and the calculator suggests it should have been more than double that.

If posted ZEM isn't real, then it's time to free ourselves from the dark and gloomy grinding dungeons and experience the world!

[Goregasmic]

... it is also possible the calculator is inaccurate.

Are we even certain all trash mobs of a particular level give the same exp (before ZEM is taken into account)? It seems like a level 47 imp protector probably shouldn't give the same exp as a crystalline devourer considering the latter has about 20% more hp.

ZEM numbers were from a table the devs said is not accurate. We don't know if it is wildly inaccurate either. It is only a guesstimate considering testing this would be a painstaking process. Like warpath said, I think people eyeball xp/hour in different zones and then come up with a %.

Now depending on your class/playstyle, mob type, area layout, gear, etc... you might do better in less traditional spots. Everyone will tell you HS is the way to go as an ench/necro and KC is terrible but I've seen quite a few necros prefere KC basement. Some say COM second floor is the best but personally, I hate it. Conventional wisdom isn't always true, you don't have to stick to it if you don't want to. Part of the fun is exploring new areas and trying new things, if you find a better spot then good for you!

[loramin]

I suspect the real ZEM is nothing like the posted numbers at all

You don't have to suspect, it says as much in the wiki (https://wiki.project1999.com/Zem):

IMPORTANT NOTE: These Numbers Are Inaccurate
The values on this page are based on the classic/EQ Emulator values, modified by the announced ZEM changes over time. This means that they are almost entirely speculative, and the only person who can provide accurate ZEM data has stated that:

I don't know where the values on the wiki come from, and we do not reference those. We do not publish the specific values, as it's part of the mystery and should be discovered by the players how each zone stacks up.

In short, no one knows the real ZEMs but the devs, because P99 modified the live/EQ Emulator ZEMs to make them more classic (or at least "classically mysterious"). We could represent that on the wiki by not publishing any ZEMs at all.

But, we do know the live/EQ Emu ZEMs, and presumably P99's ZEMs aren't that different. The staff might have changed some zones a lot (see the unclassic Hole ZEM we had not too long ago), but in general most zones probably have close to the same, if not the same, ZEM that they did on live.

So, the wiki shows those ZEMs as "better than nothing" numbers. But you are completely correct that they are innacurate.

[kjs86z2]

i find that never looking at your XP bar is the way to go