I made a P99 DPS calculator for melee classes based on EQEMU code

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As the title says, I made a P99 DPS calculator for melee classes using the EQEMU code.

Based on how close the current results seem to be compared to the game parses I have done, it seems pretty clear that P99 mostly uses the EQEMU code as-is for melee combat. They simply ignore all of the out-of-era code that has to deal with AA's, item bonuses, etc.

Right now it has a few small issues, like max damage values sometimes being 1-5 points above what they parse in game. This isn't enough to significantly throw off the DPS calculation, as rolling the max damage is rare anyway. The EQEMU codebase is full of magic numbers, so it is possible P99 has some minor tuning to said magic numbers that isn't in the EQEMU code. For people not familiar with coding, the term "magic number" simply refers to a constant value found in the code. As a simple example, when determining Riposte chance, they take the Riposte Skill, add 100, and then divide the result by 50. These numbers were probably arrived at based on various balancing tests.

The calculator currently doesn't have triple attack in it.

Here is a link to the full code, it is in Javascript. Feel free to look around and see how the calculations are done:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/114boRjVuXonMhmnU9tOzGpiI8G_3ZNU-/view?usp=sharing

Here is a link to the minified code:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ks01nbFy0aSMsGzLI0QshN_QbAn3wRzn/view?usp=sharing

You can run both versions for free in your browser via https://playcode.io/javascript . Just copy/paste the code in, and you can see the results in the console window. There's a little green play button on the web view window if you want to re-run the calculation. It has randomized elements in it, so you'll get slightly different DPS numbers every time it's run. The minified version is better for playcode, as playcode has a 8 code line limit before it starts bothering you to pay.

To use it, there is a struct at the top of the document called "playerStats". Modify the variables in the "playerStats" to adjust the values for your character's level, weapon damage, skill levels, etc. To turn off dual wielding, set the "offHandWeaponDamage" to 0.

You can also modify the mob variables using the struct "mobStats". They are currently set to what a level 50's stats are roughly speaking. Take a look at the non-minified version of the code to see some comments for basic rules of thumb for how to adjust the values.

Let me know what you think, and let me know if it is close to your actual in-game parses! There is always room for improvement.

[kjs86z2]

no

[loramin]

I took the liberty of "wikifying" your calculator: https://wiki.project1999.com/Damage_Calculator. It's still quite rough, but it lets people see your work (and I got the sense that you weren't completely finished, so I didn't want to waste a lot of time on polish).

You can see the wiki code at https://wiki.project1999.com/MediaWiki:DamageCalculator.js. As you can see there, I tried to leave your code as is, and just wrap it with form code (so it'd be easy to update with any new versions you make). However, I did have to modify your main function (RunDPSTest), to make it return an object containing the results, rather than logging them to the console (so I could display them).

P.S. It's also untested, so I make no promises about it being bug free ;)

[Snaggles]

I know p99 is a classic EQ simulator and Gameparse was created in 2007 but that’s a compromise I’m willing to make.

I may borrow or buy a Woodsman if I get bored and mix it in. I have a priceless spear which is probably on par with a SBOZ, or close enough when you consider the lower piercing cap.

[Snaggles]

Sorry DSM. I thought this was in the other thread.

Kudos for making something folks can use :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I took the liberty of "wikifying" your calculator: https://wiki.project1999.com/Damage_Calculator. It's still quite rough, but it lets people see your work (and I got the sense that you weren't completely finished, so I didn't want to waste a lot of time on polish).

You can see the wiki code at https://wiki.project1999.com/MediaWiki:DamageCalculator.js. As you can see there, I tried to leave your code as is, and just wrap it with form code (so it'd be easy to update with any new versions you make). However, I did have to modify your main function (RunDPSTest), to make it return an object containing the results, rather than logging them to the console (so I could display them).

P.S. It's also untested, so I make no promises about it being bug free ;)

Thanks a bunch for this Loramin! I'll see if I can polish it up a bit. I can modify this right? This is an awesome starting point. I don't have a ton of knowledge on how to do this sort of thing on the wiki, and a working example is the best way to learn.
Sorry DSM. I thought this was in the other thread.

Kudos for making something folks can use :)

No worries!

[loramin]

I can modify this right?

Unfortunately only wiki admins can edit the Javascript, but if you want to send me a new version I'd be happy to update the wiki with it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Unfortunately only wiki admins can edit the Javascript, but if you want to send me a new version I'd be happy to update the wiki with it.

Great! I'd say the main thing that needs improving at the moment is the display of the output arrays.

In playground.io the console.log() function shows the array index and the value. For example:

Index 0: 100,
Index 1: 22,
Index 2: 1,
...

The wiki version just shows the value:

100,
22,
1,
...

The wiki calculator should show the array index and value. For the damage arrays, the index is the damage number, and the value is the number of times the damage number was rolled. For the roll array, the index is the dice roll and the value is the number of times it was rolled.

The array variables I am referring to are:

uniqueMainHandDamageValueCountArray
uniqueOffHandDamageValueCountArray
uniquediceRollCountArray

If they were displayed in tables that would probably be easy to read as well.

[loramin]

In playground.io the console.log() function shows the array index and the value ...

The wiki version just shows the value:

...

If they were displayed in tables that would probably be easy to read as well.

Those three result fields are now displayed as tables, with a header row of the indices (I assumed you wanted them 1-based and not 0-based).

Again, it's not the most beautiful, so if you want to provide some styling I'll be happy to update ... but at least people can see the indices now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Those three result fields are now displayed as tables, with a header row of the indices (I assumed you wanted them 1-based and not 0-based).

Again, it's not the most beautiful, so if you want to provide some styling I'll be happy to update ... but at least people can see the indices now.

The tables are looking good! They are 0 based actually. 0 is misses. So one small fix there.

EDIT: Maybe name the 0 column "misses" so people know.

[loramin]

The tables are looking good! They are 0 based actually. 0 is misses. So one small fix there.

EDIT: Maybe name the 0 column "misses" so people know.

Fixed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fixed.

That's perfect. Thanks again Loramin!

[bcbrown]

You only run 500 samples in your simulation. You can see if you repeatedly hit the submit button that the resulting DPS estimation jumps around quite a bit. With the default values and hitting submit a dozen times I got values from 28 to 33 DPS. Something from 50,000 to 1 million would be more reasonable imo, depending on the impact to runtime.

It does nicely illustrate, though, that if you want to distinguish between two sets of weapons with DPS values that are within 2-3 DPS of each other, you need more than 500 samples to accurately tell which one is better.

[Duik]

Rohh roh.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You only run 500 samples in your simulation. You can see if you repeatedly hit the submit button that the resulting DPS estimation jumps around quite a bit. With the default values and hitting submit a dozen times I got values from 28 to 33 DPS. Something from 50,000 to 1 million would be more reasonable imo, depending on the impact to runtime.

It does nicely illustrate, though, that if you want to distinguish between two sets of weapons with DPS values that are within 2-3 DPS of each other, you need more than 500 samples to accurately tell which one is better.

There are limitations on websites like playcode.io for how many times you can run a single loop before it catches it as a possible infinite loop. playcode.io has a loop limit of 1500, and when you have double attacks and dual wield, you'll get well over 1000 hits. That is why it is set to 500 for now. Looks like you found a way to get the data you need by just pressing the play button a few times. If the site allows I may run multiple sets of 500 samples and average them.

[bcbrown]

It'd be good to add a parameter for number of rounds for people who want to use large sample sizes but that's really a minor complaint compared to the fact that the calculator is not accurate.

Leaving the weapons as-is and setting the mob AC to 80 doesn't result in the 50ish DPS that you've reported vs the turtle. Setting the mob AC to 850-1200 like raid mobs have doesn't change the DPS value by much vs the default.

What validations have you done before making the claim that this calculator is accurate?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It'd be good to add a parameter for number of rounds for people who want to use large sample sizes but that's really a minor complaint compared to the fact that the calculator is not accurate.

Leaving the weapons as-is and setting the mob AC to 80 doesn't result in the 50ish DPS that you've reported vs the turtle. Setting the mob AC to 850-1200 like raid mobs have doesn't change the DPS value by much vs the default.

What validations have you done before making the claim that this calculator is accurate?

Are you using the one on the wiki, or are you copy/pasting the code into https://playcode.io/javascript ?

Just did a quick test and it looks like the wiki version isn't working correctly. Adjusting the AC/Defense values does nothing. My guess is Loramin has a bug where the calculator only uses the defaults.

Copy/paste the code into https://playcode.io/javascript and it works. I've done a lot of parsing and compared it to the calculator. The results are quite close. Defense skill is going to be between 1-200 for most mobs, and AC will be around 115 for level 50 "classic" mobs, according to an EQEMU code comment. Most mobs probably aren't going to have AC significantly higher than that. Something like AoW will probably have a significantly larger value like 500. Since we don't have the actual AC and Defense values for most mobs, you do need to play around with the values based on what you fought when comparing it to the calculator. The P99 wiki AC values are probably all wrong, as they were scraped from other websites that are probably using out-of-era values. AC is much harder to test than HP. People can kill a mob, figure out how much HP it had, and adjust the P99 wiki.

For the turtle I use something like 25 Defense and 25 AC. I get around 20k primary damage, 10k offhand damage, and 57 DPS, which matches very closely with my turtle parse when using Epic Fist and SoS, as a simple example. The default values being used are my level 52 monk vs. the level 50 FM giants, and that is also very close to my parse. I've done parsing on my SK and Shaman too.

The newer version I am polishing up has things like triple attack, damage caps from 1-39, removing the damage bonus from casters, etc.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fixed.

It looks like the wiki calculator doesn't allow users to adjust the textbox values. Bcbrown and myself are unable to edit things like AC and Defense. The calculator looks like it is only using the default values, it doesn't accept the new values. Some of the textboxes are working, like Off Hand Weapon Damage.

[loramin]

:o

In my defense:

P.S. It's also untested, so I make no promises about it being bug free ;)

... but I'll try to get it fixed soon(-ish).

[loramin]

It looks like the wiki calculator doesn't allow users to adjust the textbox values. Bcbrown and myself are unable to edit things like AC and Defense. The calculator looks like it is only using the default values, it doesn't accept the new values. Some of the textboxes are working, like Off Hand Weapon Damage.

I checked the code, and the problem I found was actually with the mob (not player) stats: they weren't using the form values.

However, I have no idea what values are correct (I don't play many melee characters), so I can't really do much more QA myself: that's all on you DSM.

(Developer Talk) If you want to debug the code further yourself, you can use the browser dev tools to do so. Open the dev tools (F12), go to the sources tab, and pick the file "index.php?title=MediaWiki: DamageCalculator.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript" (it should be the second "index.php?" one on the list). You can then see the source code, add break points, trigger the form, and check any variables' values.

For instance,if you add a break point to line 141:

const results = RunDPSTest(playerStats, mobStats, 500);

... and then hover over playerStats/mobStats, you can now see that they use the form's values.


(Non-Developer Talk) If anyone else wants to check it out, you'll have to clear your cache (or else you might have to wait a few days to see the changes). A simple way (for anyone, not just a developer) to do this in Chrome is to open the developer tools (F12), click and hold down the reload button, and then pick "Empty Cache and Hard Reload" (and then do F12 to close the dev tools after).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I checked the code, and the problem I found was actually with the mob (not player) stats: they weren't using the form values.


Thanks again for the fix! Did some super quick testing and it looks like all the fields are working now.

[bcbrown]

Swarmcaller v Froglok Forager should be about 57 DPS but the calculator shows 17 DPS. Changes made:
Level 60, strength 235, mainhand 29/41, offhand 0 damage, haste 40%. Mob AC of 311. Everything else left default.

Woody vs Bloodmaw should be 39.5 DPS at 138 str and 43 DPS at 175 str, but shows 29 and 30.
Changes made: Level 52, strength 138 or 175, mainhand 31/35, offhand 0 damage, haste 22%. Mob AC of 94, defense of 50.

I respect the ambition but I'd be shocked if this ever got to a point of being even remotely reliable.

[Jimjam]

Nice took! I haven’t tried it yet but have 5*ed the thread on concept alone. Could a factor with the issues experienced be Wiki overestimating mob AC?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Swarmcaller v Froglok Forager should be about 57 DPS but the calculator shows 17 DPS. Changes made:
Level 60, strength 235, mainhand 29/41, offhand 0 damage, haste 40%. Mob AC of 311. Everything else left default.

Woody vs Bloodmaw should be 39.5 DPS at 138 str and 43 DPS at 175 str, but shows 29 and 30.
Changes made: Level 52, strength 138 or 175, mainhand 31/35, offhand 0 damage, haste 22%. Mob AC of 94, defense of 50.

I respect the ambition but I'd be shocked if this ever got to a point of being even remotely reliable.

You didn't read my posts yet again. Your AC values are too high. 115 AC is roughly correct for a level 50 mob. Forager is 45. Of course your DPS is off when a level 45 has the AC of a raid mob at 311. You can't use wiki values, they are out of era.

Please stop going into this with the assumption it's wrong. You do that often, and it clouds your objectivity.

Nice took! I haven’t tried it yet but have 5*ed the thread on concept alone. Could a factor with the issues experienced be Wiki overestimating mob AC?

Thanks! You are correct, the issue is the AC values on the wiki are basically all out of era.

[WarpathEQ]

So in that vein what is the source of AC data for mobs if wiki can't be relied on and how do you know that your AC values are correct and not just a reverse engineering to align to parse results and potentially mask inaccuracies in the calculator.

I assume NPC AC works differently from PC AC as the values stated seem wildly low compared to what I would expect if you were using the calculator to parse a player duel or pvp for example.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Swarmcaller v Froglok Forager should be about 57 DPS but the calculator shows 17 DPS. Changes made:



The other problem with this parse is that misses were turned off:

Thanks bcbrown!

Honestly the 100% hit factor could have been my missed turned off. I figured that would only affect what is displayed in-game. Sorry if that threw a curveball.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3731894&postcount=91

So most likely the DPS value is wrong to begin with.


Woody vs Bloodmaw should be 39.5 DPS at 138 str and 43 DPS at 175 str, but shows 29 and 30.
Changes made: Level 52, strength 138 or 175, mainhand 31/35, offhand 0 damage, haste 22%. Mob AC of 94, defense of 50.


I get around 43 DPS with Woody on Bloodmaw at level 52, 175 STR, 210 offense, 210 weapon skill, 210 double attack, 22% Haste, 16 Damage Bonus when you apply Bloodmaw's stats more accurately. Bloodmaw is level 1-8, so he's going to be similar to corudoth. Probably 25 Defense 25 AC, something around there. He also won't be parrying or riposting, so you'd set those two skills to 0.

So in that vein what is the source of AC data for mobs if wiki can't be relied on and how do you know that your AC values are correct and not just a reverse engineering to align to parse results and potentially mask inaccuracies in the calculator.

I assume NPC AC works differently from PC AC as the values stated seem wildly low compared to what I would expect if you were using the calculator to parse a player duel or pvp for example.

There is a comment in the EQEMU code that says:


According to the guild hall Combat Dummies, a level 50 classic EQ mob it should be ~115


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440

When I did a parse on a level 50 mob with my level 52 Monk, my DPS calculator got the same value as the actual parse when using 115 AC and 200 Defense. Those are the default values in the calculator right now.

When I reduce the mob to a level 5 mob with 25 AC and 25 Defense (corudoth, a level 5 mob), I also get basically the same DPS values as what I parsed in the linked post.

I also have other parses that match the DPS calculator that I haven't uploaded yet.

[WarpathEQ]

Seems pretty challenging when you have an unknown variable as an input (mob AC). No way to validate if the data output is accurate or if we're just reverse engineering the output based on actual parses to determine AC values as they would align to this calculator therefore rending the calculator itself meaningless.

Would be interesting to do some testing on combat logs against PCs with known AC values but I suspect PC AC and NPC AC likely work differently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seems pretty challenging when you have an unknown variable as an input (mob AC). No way to validate if the data output is accurate or if we're just reverse engineering the output based on actual parses to determine AC values as they would align to this calculator therefore rending the calculator itself meaningless.


This is incorrect. You can prove the calculator is correct by parsing a low level mob like Corudoth (level 5) on P99 and comparing the results to the calculator. If the parsed P99 DPS against Corudoth (level 5) matches very low AC and Defense values in the calculator, then you have a baseline to scale the rest of your AC off of. I already did this, and it is correct.

Remember also we have a comment in the EQEMU code:


According to the guild hall Combat Dummies, a level 50 classic EQ mob it should be ~115


When parsing the two FM Giants under the fort (level 50 mobs), the P99 parse matches the calculator when using 115 AC and 200 Defense.

The odds of both the Corudoth parse (level 5) and FM Giants parse (level 50) just happening to match the calculator with low AC/Defense on the level 5 and 115 AC/200 Defense on the level 50 is very low.

You can take a look at the parses I am refering to here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440

My calculator gets basically the same DPS on Corudoth (level 5) and the FM Giants (level 50).

[Jimjam]

Would be nice to have a feature that estimates the ac of the intended emulated mob since the wiki is whacky.

Is this something that would be possible using the guild hall dummy resource you mentioned?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Would be nice to have a feature that estimates the ac of the intended emulated mob since the wiki is whacky.

Is this something that would be possible using the guild hall dummy resource you mentioned?

The main reason why the comment about the guild hall dummy is interesting is because it's in the EQEMU codebase itself. Usually when this happens it's because the developer is trying to remember what value they are scaling their magic numbers off of. Since that 115 AC value happens to work perfectly with a P99 level 50 mob parse, that lends further evidence towards this being the case.

You can also take a look at the Kunark strategy guide to get a very rough idea of what mob stats were for the era:

https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide.pdf

Mob AC is between 1 and 120 for mobs levels 1-42 in that book. This means in-era AC values are certainly not 300+ for mobs that are level 45+, like the P99 Wiki says.

"Typical skill level" for a mob levels 35-44 is listed as 185, which matches Defense skill scaling of 5 * level, similar to how players scale their Defense skill.

The strategy guide does have a number of errors in it, but I think the raw number values are probably more trustworthy. This is because the strategy guide writers were probably given spreadsheets of data by the Everquest developers, and the strategy guide writers transcribed them. Many of the inaccuracies in the strategy guide stem more from misunderstandings of concepts that are more complex than mere numbers.

I gave the range of 1AC -115 AC, where 1AC would be level 1, and 115AC would be level 50. A level 30 mob is probably around 60 AC.

For the Defense skill it looks like 5 * Mob Level with the same skill caps as a Warrior roughly speaking.

I could do something like auto scale those stats based on level, but some mobs probably do have higher AC than normal. The "raid boss" of a lower level dungeon like Splitpaw may have higher stats than the average. People may complain their DPS parse is off if they happen to parse a mob like that.

That's why I am leaving the AC and Defense skill open for people to play with for now, with general guidelines.

[Snaggles]

The other problem with this parse is that misses were turned off:



https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3731894&postcount=91

So most likely the DPS value is wrong to begin with.



Dps is damage per second. Misses are already not counted since they are not damage. Whether you use a Parser like Gameparse or bcbrown adds them up and divides by duration (calculator or uses a program).

Did I misunderstand this? The closest thing to 17dps I’ve seen is my 60 pally accidentally using a Jeldorin on Dain (25dps). A 60 Mage’s focused water pet does high 30’s to mid 40’s on Vindi.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dps is damage per second. Misses are already not counted since they are not damage. Whether you use a Parser like Gameparse or bcbrown adds them up and divides by duration (calculator or uses a program).

Did I misunderstand this? The closest thing to 17dps I’ve seen is my 60 pally accidentally using a Jeldorin on Dain (25dps). A 60 Mage’s focused water pet does high 30’s to mid 40’s on Vindi.

Let me explain why the 57 DPS parse against a level 45 mob with a Swarmcaller is suspicious.

1. The missing misses is odd is due to the amount of time given for each parse.


Three fights, with durations of 1:44, 1:42, 1:44 (from timestamp of first swing to last swing).


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3731894&postcount=91

If you add that up, the total time is 310 seconds. The way delay works is 10 Delay = 1 Second. At 40% haste your Swarmcaller should be swinging once every (41 / 1.40) = 29.3 / 10 = 2.9 seconds rounded down. Double Attack has basically a 50% chance to proc with high skill. This means out of your 168 hits, about 110 of them were the actual swings, and 58 of them were the double attacks.

110 swings * 2.9 seconds = 319 seconds. This means you didn't include the misses in the time calculation, you are only counting the time for the hits. Assuming a miss rate of 40%, the fight time should be extended by ~124 seconds total across all three fights. 17720 Damage / 434 seconds = 41 DPS. My calculator shows a range of 33-41 DPS using a Swarmcaller for a level 60 Ranger with 235 STR, 240 Offense Skill, 245 Double Attack Skill, 240 Weapon Skill, 40% Haste, +40 ATK (Call of the Predator), and 34 Main Hand Damage Bonus against a mob with 185 Defense, 100 AC, and 100 AGI. Your parse was on the high end if I guessed the miss chance correctly, but without having the full log data I don't know how many misses you actually had, and how long the fights actually were.

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU - My level 60 Shadowknight using an NToV weapon with 46 Damage and 44 Delay is doing 70 DPS to a level 5 mob. This is with 231 STR, 225 Offense Skill, 235 Double Attack Skill, 225 Weapon Skill, 34% Haste, +15 ATK, and 37 Main Hand Damage bonus.

I find it highly improbable that a 29 Damage 41 Delay weapon (Swarmcaller) is doing 57 DPS to a mob 40 levels higher than Corudoth given the STR, ATK, Skill Values, and Haste. Looking at these parses: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440 a level 50 mob reduced my Corudoth DPS by about 45%. That means my 46 Damage 44 Delay NToV weapon should be doing roughly 40 DPS to a level 50 mob. My Calculator shows a range of 37-44 DPS on a mob with 185 Defense, 100 AC, and 100 AGI with my NToV Weapon using the stats above. A weapon with a significantly worse ratio (Swarmcaller) should not be doing 15 more DPS than an NToV weapon when both players are level 60 with similar STR, ATK, Skill Values, and Haste on a level 45 mob.

[Snaggles]

Level 60 ranger. 1329 self buffed attack with a swarmcaller. 91% self haste against a level 45 frog.

I’m definitely not looking to game the numbers. No DS at all, no Calefaction, no call of fire. I didn’t proc Avatar because I wanted to eliminate all possible variables like having the buff fade mid-parse.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Level 60 ranger. 1329 self buffed attack with a swarmcaller. 91% self haste against a level 45 frog.

I’m definitely not looking to game the numbers. No DS at all, no Calefaction, no call of fire. I didn’t proc Avatar because I wanted to eliminate all possible variables like having the buff fade mid-parse.

Ah that explains it. Bcbrown said you had 40% Haste. At 91% haste and 40 ATK from CoTP you can hit 57 DPS on the high end with my calculator using swarmcaller. Can you tell me your full stats and buffs? The logs would be great too. Seems like there was a disconnect between you and Bcbrown somewhere. Knowing all your worn items would be helpful too.

[Snaggles]

I’m parked at ST, glad to run over to Iceclad this weekend and run a tests if it is of interest. Can tweak attack figures and send you Discord screenshots if it helps track data.

Swiftwind, two tash sticks, Priceless Spear, Swarmcaller not listed in the Magelo.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m parked at ST, glad to run over to Iceclad this weekend and run a tests if it is of interest. Can tweak attack figures and send you Discord screenshots if it helps track data.

Swiftwind, two tash sticks, Priceless Spear, Swarmcaller not listed in the Magelo.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv

Nice Magelo. I'm very jelly of that Shawl of Protection. Probably my favorite item in the game. 35 SV all on an off slot like shoulders is just bonkers. I see you have Ranger Sky Cloak. Bcbrown probably just missed that detail. That's where your 50% extra haste is coming from.

I might take you up on that offer, not 100% sure if I have time, but we'll see!

[Snaggles]

Nice Magelo. I'm very jelly of that Shawl of Protection. Probably my favorite item in the game. 35 SV all on an off slot like shoulders is just bonkers.

I might take you up on that offer, not 100% sure if I have time, but we'll see!

Thanks! Glad to whenever our schedules align. Glad to attack buff your SK as well.

[loramin]

BTW DSM (or anyone else): I was thinking it might be nice to add a drop-down with example monster stats. That way anyone using the calculator for the first time wouldn't have to know monster stats for it to be useful: they could just pick "orc pawn" or "a temple guardian" from the list, and it would populate the monster fields appropriately.

(We could also do something to let people import their Magelos into the player fields ... but that'd be a bigger project.)

We'd only need a few monsters to get started (maybe one low/mid/high-level and one raid?) ... but the problem is, I don't know monster stats, and (I guess?) I can't just take them from the wiki.

However, if anyone can provide some, I'll happily add such a dropdown.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

BTW DSM (or anyone else): I was thinking it might be nice to add a drop-down with example monster stats. That way anyone using the calculator for the first time wouldn't have to know monster stats for it to be useful: they could just pick "orc pawn" or "a temple guardian" from the list, and it would populate the monster fields appropriately.

(We could also do something to let people import their Magelos into the player fields ... but that'd be a bigger project.)

We'd only need a few monsters to get started (maybe one low/mid/high-level and one raid?) ... but the problem is, I don't know monster stats, and (I guess?) I can't just take them from the wiki.

However, if anyone can provide some, I'll happily add such a dropdown.

Yeah that's an idea! I may do something like the dropdown for mobs. I've been working on a lot of changes, so as a heads up you'll get a big update soon Loramin. Been adding things like damage caps based on level, skill caps, triple attack, class selection, etc. I also transcribed the entire 1h and 2h damage table, so it'll automatically select the main hand damage bonus based on your delay. Made some improvements to the console log results as well.

EDITS:

You are correct about the Wiki, the AC values are all wrong. In-Era Mob AC is like 115 AC for a level 50 mob according to an EQEMU comment:


According to the guild hall Combat Dummies, a level 50 classic EQ mob it should be ~115


P99 Wiki says level 50 mobs have like 344 AC.

The Kunark Strategy Guide also supports In-Era AC being around 115 for a level 50 mob. It shows mobs having 1-120 AC from levels 1-42:

https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide.pdf

The mob with 120 AC is Frost Giants, so it wouldn't surprise me if they are above average AC for their level.

The Kunark Strategy Guide is probably the closest thing we have to a database dump for that period of time, even though the guide is quite flawed at times.

[Jimjam]

The model and size of model an npc used compared to other npcs of the same level often gave clues to the stats of that NPC.

For example an NPC human that used a plate model would likely have more AC than the same level npc of the same class using a leather model. Of course, this was a trend not a rule.

Tangentially off this, I'd agree it is likely Frost Giants have particularly good stats (including AC) for their level (perhaps even compared to most Velious mobs of the same level).

I look forward to a day where you can click on an NPC in live and see their stats... I'm sure it has all been butchered since after 2001, but it would be fun to investigate disirregardlessfully. Until then, the Kunark Guide is probably our best bet - as you say it is likely those numbers are copy-paste, not insubstantially plucked from the void.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Got a big update done. Download links are the same, the version has been updated. As of writing this post the wiki version is not updated. That will be for Loramin to do whenever he has time (Thank you in advance!)


Here is a link to the full code, it is in Javascript. Feel free to look around and see how the calculations are done:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/114boRjVuXonMhmnU9tOzGpiI8G_3ZNU-/view?usp=sharing

Here is a link to the minified code:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ks01nbFy0aSMsGzLI0QshN_QbAn3wRzn/view?usp=sharing

You can run both versions for free in your browser via https://playcode.io/javascript . Just copy/paste the code in, and you can see the results in the console window. There's a little green play button on the web view window if you want to re-run the calculation. It has randomized elements in it, so you'll get slightly different DPS numbers every time it's run. The minified version is better for playcode, as playcode has a 8 code line limit before it starts bothering you to pay.


I also made a few sample sets that have links to P99 parses so you can see how accurate the calculator is using different classes, weapons, character levels, and fighting different mobs.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q-6jVqYPFOzKkhtkOvAq6zZ7A6Xdr3_B/view?usp=sharing

Update Log:
1. Added Triple Attack
2. Added Warrior Crit and Crippling Blows
3. Added Proc Damage
4. Added DoT Proc Damage
5. Added Skill Caps for levels 1-50 and levels 51-60.
6. Added Weapon Damage Caps
6. Added the 1h and 2h Main Hand Damage Bonus tables, they will apply the bonus automatically now based on delay. Use bUsingTwoHandedWeapon to switch between 1h and 2h.
7. Added class selection. Changing from Warrior to Wizard will turn off things like the Main Hand Damage Bonus, Triple Attack, etc. Will also change the skill caps and what skills are available. Wizard's don't have Double attack, for example.
8. Added boolean scaleOffensiveSkillsBasedOnPlayerLevel for playerStats. When set to true, the player's skills will automatically scale based on level. It isn't 100% accurate for all classes, it simply scales 5 + (5 * level) for all classes. Turned on by default to make using the calculator easier initially. These will be skill capped when you hit the appropriate skill cap.
9. Added boolean scaleDefensiveValuesBasedOnMobLevel for mobStats. When turned on the Mob's stats will automatically scale based on the Mobs level. This isn't going to be accurate for every single mob, as mobs can have stats higher than the average for their level. Turned on by default to make using the calculator easier initially.
10. Made the text outputs more robust and hopefully easier to read.
11. Added a few playerStat variables so you can adjust the test yourself without having to modify the code.
11a. numberOfSwingsToTest will allow you to change how many main hand weapon swings you want to test.
11b. numberOfSwingSetsToRun will run the test again that many times, and average the resuts. For example, if numberOfSwingsToTest is set to 500 and numberOfSwingSetsToRun is set to 75, you will run 75 sets of 500 swings.
11c. numberOfColumnsInTables will adjust the number of columns for the table outputs, so if you are on a smaller screen the table won't be way off the screen.

[Botten]

Thank you DeathsSilkyMist. I respect the work and time you put into this. I will be playing with it later for sure. It is great we have fans like you and Loramin that produce so much helpful information.

[Zuranthium]

How does this differ from the one that has already existed for a long time - https://www.jklein.me/eqcalc/

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How does this differ from the one that has already existed for a long time - https://www.jklein.me/eqcalc/

That calculator isn't using the EQEMU code as far as I am aware. It's just using the formulas found on the Game Mechanics wiki page.

My calculator is more precise. It uses the EQEMU code, and it is actually simulating the swings you make against a mob by running through the EQEMU code for attacking. You can set the mob stats to see how differences in those stats affect your DPS. My calculator also includes how ATK affects your DPS, and critical hits. It has proc DPS too.

[Zuranthium]

Okay calculate the best Warrior DPS against Avatar of War - Palladius Axe of Slaughter with offhand swaps to Scimitar of Emerald Dawn inbetween (aka, add 20/42 offhand calc to the Palladius calc).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Okay calculate the best Warrior DPS against Avatar of War - Palladius Axe of Slaughter with offhand swaps to Scimitar of Emerald Dawn inbetween (aka, add 20/42 offhand calc to the Palladius calc).

My calculator does do fistweaving for monks. It doesn't do offhand weaving for other classes, as realistically nobody does that for non-monk classes. I could adjust it to allow for offhand weaving on all classes, but that will just confuse most people.

You are going to miss palladius swings by swapping two weapons like that. I do remember you arguing for this strategy in the past, but I've never seen anybody actually do this.

[Zuranthium]

You won't miss any Palladius swings, just need to install my helpful AI mouse to do it. Link in the description, don't forget to comment, like, and subscribe.

So where's the damage calc at? Just add whatever a 20/42 offhand calc is to the Palladius one, it's easy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You won't miss any Palladius swings, just need to install my helpful AI mouse to do it. Link in the description, don't forget to comment, like, and subscribe.

So where's the damage calc at? Just add whatever a 20/42 offhand calc is to the Palladius one, it's easy.

Scripts aren't allowed. But I'll humor you.

I haven't estimated AoW's actual AC yet, so this DPS number may not be what has been parsed. You'll be able to see the difference between Palladius with and without scimitar weaving. I don't have disciplines, so this will be without disciplines.

AoW with 512 AC vs. A 60 War with 255 STR, 100% Haste, 140 ATK (Avatar + CoTP) who is berserking:

68 DPS no scimitar weaving.
82 DPS with scimitar weaving.

So you could theoretically get a 21% DPS boost if you could actually weave the scimitar without missing Palladius Swings.

Again, I haven't actually estimated AoW's AC yet. So if 512 isn't correct, the exact DPS number will be off.

[Snaggles]

Okay calculate the best Warrior DPS against Avatar of War - Palladius Axe of Slaughter with offhand swaps to Scimitar of Emerald Dawn inbetween (aka, add 20/42 offhand calc to the Palladius calc).

Stop with the offhand swap elf sim fan fiction.

Nobody is clicking 6 times every two 2 seconds unless they are a Swiftie refreshing TicketMaster.

[kjs86z2]

lmao this guy is back with his weaving warrior theoryshitcraft

[Zuranthium]

Scripts aren't allowed. But I'll humor you.

AoW with 512 AC vs. A 60 War with 255 STR, 100% Haste, 140 ATK (Avatar + CoTP) who is berserking:

68 DPS no scimitar weaving.
82 DPS with scimitar weaving.

So you could theoretically get a 21% DPS boost

That's the same DPS % I already said before, yeah. The specific total DPS is ultimately irrelevant since it fluctuates on a per-MOB basis, while the % gained from weapon swapping shouldn't really fluctuate. You shouldn't have 100% haste though. You want 99% haste with Visions of Grandeur.

Also, you don't need to use a script that creates a macro or "interacts with the client", which is the thing that's banned (GINA should be banned too according to this, but anyway). You just use something that makes it so when you click your mouse, it always clicks the part of the screen you want. That isn't inputting multiple actions with one user action, nor interacting with the game client (it's only interacting with your physical device of clicking on your computer screen), nor allowing the game to be played AFK, therefore not actually against the rules (and also how would that even be detected?).

Nobody is clicking 6 times every two 2 seconds unless they are a Swiftie refreshing TicketMaster.

People click more than 6 times every 2 seconds in many competitive games, and this is quite easy if no mouse precision is required. And in the case of clicking normally, you only need to do it over the course of 3-4 seconds when having less haste.

lmao this guy is back with his weaving warrior theoryshitcraft

lmao this guy is banned and still shitposting.

There's no "theorycraft", this happened in classic EQ and it's something everyone should be doing if they want to get maximum DPS when possible, being especially viable when not having max haste, something that happens all time when soloing or for ANY Warrior or Ranger while leveling, before they reach the higher haste caps after level 50.

With max haste it's still realistic to swap every other main attack round, if someone wants to put the effort in, which still results in 10% more DPS.

[Snaggles]

There's no "theorycraft", this happened in classic EQ and it's something everyone should be doing if they want to get maximum DPS when possible, being especially viable when not having max haste, something that happens all time when soloing or for ANY Warrior or Ranger while leveling, before they reach the higher haste caps after level 50.

With max haste it's still realistic to swap every other main attack round, if someone wants to put the effort in, which still results in 10% more DPS.

It is entirely theorycraft. You have no parses to show for the effort and refuse to create them since “I’m retired”. It would be pretty easy to compare gear and buffs and even run a few minute parse, or see who gets the most xp kills.

Even if you could pull off this hat trick a few times nobody is going to do it for 10 cycles for vindi (60 clicks) or 60 cycles (360 clicks) for a 6 minute fight. To think they are going to grind like this is ludicrous…even asking people to stun/bash casters is a tall order.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You just use something that makes it so when you click your mouse, it always clicks the part of the screen you want. That isn't inputting multiple actions with one user action, nor interacting with the game client (it's only interacting with your physical device of clicking on your computer screen), nor allowing the game to be played AFK, therefore not actually against the rules (and also how would that even be detected?).


As far as I know that kind of script isn't allowed on P99. Theoretically you could use a script like that and get away with it. I won't claim it's impossible.

However, someone who has spent a bunch of time and DKP to get a Palladius Axe is not going to risk getting banned for +14 DPS on a raid target.

If you need a script to do this kind of offhand swapping reliably, nobody is going to do it on P99. The risk of getting banned is not worth the reward.

[Zuranthium]

It is entirely theorycraft.

No it isn't. You obviously haven't even tried.

It's only a matter of how consistent someone is able to be depending on the weapon delay they are working with, and how much effort they want to put in. Back in 1999 it was common for a melee character to have zero haste, and that's still the case for a new server or a corpse run. When you have 4+ seconds to spare between swings of your Two-hander, you should absolutely be offhand weapon swapping if you care about increasing your DPS. Same for when you have 3 seconds to spare (the typical attack speed even while hasted, for characters at the levels where they have lower amounts of haste); it can be performed consistently with that much of a window.

Even if you could pull off this hat trick a few times nobody is going to do it for 10 cycles for vindi (60 clicks) or 60 cycles (360 clicks) for a 6 minute fight.

If "nobody" is going to do it, even just 1 time to hit a record parse or for a solo artist challenge, or to save the party/themselves from death in a close fight, then they are bad players.

This game is not competitive, and the mechanics involved in weapon swapping are not exactly fun, so it's understandable why most EQ players are bad/lazy. But people DO care about leveling faster, so everyone should be aware of the mechanic and use it if they care to put the effort in. It's similar to only moving/casting inbetween meditate ticks as a caster. Most people are too lazy to even do that, but I did it a lot and got more performance out of my characters. It's satisfying in the cases where it makes a difference in being able to hold down multiple spawns on recharge or not.

As far as I know that kind of script isn't allowed on P99. Theoretically you could use a script like that and get away with it. I won't claim it's impossible.

Are mouses with extra buttons allowed? Are programs that let you click the screen with your eyes allowed?

That hardware is obviously not banned, despite it giving players an advantage over people who don't have the same hardware.

It's funny how a literal disabled person with no hands could play Warrior and Ranger better than the way most p99 players do it right now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are mouses with extra buttons allowed? Are programs that let you click the screen with your eyes allowed?

That hardware is obviously not banned, despite it giving players an advantage over people who don't have the same hardware.

It's funny how a literal disabled person with no hands could play Warrior and Ranger better than the way most p99 players do it right now.

If you need scripts and/or hardware to do specific gameplay, nobody on P99 is going to do it. Risking getting banned is not worth a few DPS. I am not sure how much clearer I can be. You can choose to believe people on P99 use all kinds of hardware and scripts, but that is simply not reality.

[Zuranthium]

Nobody can get banned for the hardware they are using, LOL. How would p99 even go about trying to stop people from using gaming mouses and eyetracking software? They could force higher ping and longer zoning times if they wanted, removing the advantage people have from modern internet and computers compared to what existed in 1999, but I don't see any legal way they can stop someone from using better mouses and mouse-alternative devices.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody can get banned for the hardware they are using, LOL. How would p99 even go about trying to stop people from using gaming mouses and eyetracking software? They could force higher ping and longer zoning times if they wanted, removing the advantage people have from modern internet and computers compared to what existed in 1999, but I don't see any legal way they can stop someone from using better mouses and mouse-alternative devices.

GMs can always teleport to you, watch how you are playing, and decide if you are playing by the rules or not.

By all means, please get a Palladius Axe and start doing your offhand weaving with scripts and hardware. You'll parse higher than other Warriors, and the GMs may wonder why.

I won't be taking those risks on an account I've put a ton of time into. Raid targets will still die without the +14 DPS from a few Rangers and Warriors.

Most players on P99 won't follow your lead. It's not worth it. If you could do this strategy without scripts and/or hardware, people would be doing it already. Monks on P99 (including myself) fistweave because you don't need scripts and/or hardware to do it.

[Snaggles]

No it isn't. You obviously haven't even tried.

It's only a matter of how consistent someone is able to be depending on the weapon delay they are working with, and how much effort they want to put in. Back in 1999 it was common for a melee character to have zero haste, and that's still the case for a new server or a corpse run. When you have 4+ seconds to spare between swings of your Two-hander, you should absolutely be offhand weapon swapping if you care about increasing your DPS. Same for when you have 3 seconds to spare (the typical attack speed even while hasted, for characters at the levels where they have lower amounts of haste); it can be performed consistently with that much of a window.


Are you truly hanging your augment on unhasted people in 1999 and corpse runs?

I would appreciate specifics about what gear combo makes sense outside the allegation that if you aren’t reliably clicking 6 times a second (presumed 40 delay with 3 seconds to spare) you aren’t a tryhard.

Personally with 91% self haste and a 38 delay 2h this just isn’t happening with manual mouse clicks. Not without the chance of slowing the 2h swings even on occasion which is a more significant dps loss.



If "nobody" is going to do it, even just 1 time to hit a record parse or for a solo artist challenge, or to save the party/themselves from death in a close fight, then they are bad players.

This game is not competitive, and the mechanics involved in weapon swapping are not exactly fun, so it's understandable why most EQ players are bad/lazy. But people DO care about leveling faster, so everyone should be aware of the mechanic and use it if they care to put the effort in. It's similar to only moving/casting inbetween meditate ticks as a caster. Most people are too lazy to even do that, but I did it a lot and got more performance out of my characters. It's satisfying in the cases where it makes a difference in being able to hold down multiple spawns on recharge or not.


There are about a dozen ways to turn a battle with a hybrid and almost as many with a warrior using discs, procs and instant clicks. Outside racing and some pull tricks this is a slow game that rewards thinkers, not quick clickers. We carry wort pots, mystic cloaks, serpent blood potions, leatherfoot caps, and repeatedly quest soulfires. We deliberate over gear choices and prepare for everything…the game seldom surprises and when it does a Wuoshi Scimitar isn’t saving the day.

[Jimjam]

People click more than 6 times every 2 seconds in many competitive games, and this is quite easy if no mouse precision is required. And in the case of clicking normally, you only need to do it over the course of 3-4 seconds when having less haste.

Those are different games. The titanium doesn’t play well with rapid inputs and often fails to register mouse button presses in quick succession, particularly with items on cursor.


I’m sure field testing previously disproved this suggestion? It worked better on Quarm.

[kjs86z2]

imagine taking 1999 elf sim this far

[Zuranthium]

Are you truly hanging your augment on unhasted people in 1999 and corpse runs?

Are you truly pretending that haste caps don't exist?

Warriors and Rangers before level 51 can reliably weapon swap with the max haste available. Attempting to argue that clicking 6 times every 3 seconds is unfeasible (not every second, as you tried to strawman) is completely out of line.

Personally with 91% self haste and a 38 delay 2h this just isn’t happening with manual mouse clicks. Not without the chance of slowing the 2h swings even on occasion

See how it goes with the 45 delay Twisted Steel Bastard Sword (already one of the best weapons in game) or the respectable 45/46 Rekeklo's War Sword.

This is also why the 42/49 Argent Protector is by far the most cost efficient thing in the game. Already a great weapon for the very low cost and gives ample time to swap, generating more DPS than not weapon swapping with some other weapons that are considered better.

the game seldom surprises and when it does a Wuoshi Scimitar isn’t saving the day.

Wrong. Giving yourself a big DPS increase absolutely impacts whether or not you can solo a certain NPC, or kill it before it kills a party member. Not to mention how it impacts exp grinding. Spamming wort pots does 0 extra DPS, is limited by inventory space, and costs money.

Offhand weapon swapping is a free increase in your character's performance (aside from the cost of the offhand, but everyone has one sitting around anyway) and leveling speed.

GMs can always teleport to you, watch how you are playing, and decide if you are playing by the rules or not.

Using alternative mouses IS playing by the rules. And anyone can weapon swap to begin with. A GM watching someone do it and looking at game logs would see nothing wrong whatsoever. Zero extra inputs from the player than what is already possible, zero programs that are altering the Everquest game client.

Let's see Rogean take the stance that disabled people are not allowed to use necessary hardware to play the game. I'm sure that will go over well. Not happening.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Using alternative mouses IS playing by the rules. And anyone can weapon swap to begin with. A GM watching someone do it and looking at game logs would see nothing wrong whatsoever. Zero extra inputs from the player than what is already possible, zero programs that are altering the Everquest game client.

Let's see Rogean take the stance that disabled people are not allowed to use necessary hardware to play the game. I'm sure that will go over well. Not happening.

They can check the data you sent up to the server too. For example, let's say you made a physical machine that hits a key every 0.5 seconds. That consistency would show up in the data. If you are swapping weapons way faster than a normal person should be able to with 6 clicks, they could see that as well.

There are other ways to check cheating if the local dll misses it.

[kjs86z2]

i think this guy just likes making it known that he knows how to theoretically do the best dps but has never actually played that way

aint nobody doin that shit, not ever

[Snaggles]

Are you truly pretending that haste caps don't exist?

Warriors and Rangers before level 51 can reliably weapon swap with the max haste available. Attempting to argue that clicking 6 times every 3 seconds is unfeasible (not every second, as you tried to strawman) is completely out of line.

See how it goes with the 45 delay Twisted Steel Bastard Sword (already one of the best weapons in game) or the respectable 45/46 Rekeklo's War Sword.

This is also why the 42/49 Argent Protector is by far the most cost efficient thing in the game. Already a great weapon for the very low cost and gives ample time to swap, generating more DPS than not weapon swapping with some other weapons that are considered better.

Unhasted in 1999 and corpse run gear has now shifted to haste caps per level. I don’t care what a level 45 ranger or warrior parses, nor should anyone, but I’ll bite assuming an Argent Protector is the best I can get:

Level Max total haste permitted
1-30 50%
31-50 74%
51-54 84%
55-59 94%
60 100%

Delay of Argent Protector with SCHW only (22%) on a level 45 whatever:
New Delay = Delay / (1+ Haste)
40.16 delay = 49/1.22

With CoF
36.02 = 49/1.36

With CoF and Alacrity
28.16 = 49/1.74

So a swing timer of 2.8-4 seconds to de-equip a 2h, swap in an offhand (can’t hover swap since different slot), swap offhand out to bag or open slot, swap in 2h again.

I’d suggest you start playing again as you believe you have much to lend to the community (albeit little proof) even after long retiring from it.

I parse for me and weigh my contribution constantly, revise and retest when possible. That’s the whole point of parsing, to get better and understand objective data, not brag about results.

I’m done bickering as I’ve already slopped up DSM’s thread more than necessary (sorry DSM).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m done bickering as I’ve already slopped up DSM’s thread more than necessary (sorry DSM).

No worries at all! Thanks for the bickering:)

[Jimjam]

i think this guy just likes making it known that he knows how to theoretically do the best dps but has never actually played that way

aint nobody doin that shit, not ever

I’d deffo do it if it was feasible - on quarm i’d juggle my pgt between primary and secondary for extra berserker proc chances because it meaningfully boosted my character.

You simply can’t do stuff like that on p99 as the client doesn’t play nice.

[Zuranthium]

They can check the data you sent up to the server too. For example, let's say you made a physical machine that hits a key every 0.5 seconds. That consistency would show up in the data.

So? That wouldn't be disallowed and can be quickly proven on video that it's not a program interacting with the game code. I've literally done that before in another game, weighing down one of the keys on my keyboard because it was beneficial to keep it pressed at all times.

I don’t care what a level 45 ranger or warrior parses, nor should anyone

Anyone who is level 45 should care. The game is played at all levels and getting to Level 60 is always a time expenditure. Anything you can do to save time and allow your character to farm better along the way is a benefit. Plus you can set records for accomplishing certain challenges at the lowest level possible, if that's something of interest.

So a swing timer of 2.8-4 seconds to de-equip a 2h, swap in an offhand (can’t hover swap since different slot), swap offhand out to bag or open slot, swap in 2h again.

Your open bag slot on screen should be right next to the weapon slots. You don't have to move the mouse hardly any distance. Having 2.8 seconds is sufficient, that's actually the exact amount of time I was working with when I did it back in the day, with a 48 delay weapon and 71% haste (Celerity + FBSS). With 4 seconds it's not even a question, mechanically.

i think this guy just likes making it known that he knows how to theoretically do the best dps but has never actually played that way

The banned person who never played classic EQ or seemingly any real competitive game at a relevant level is wasting space again. What a surprise. I did this for many, many hours during Classic, leveling my friend's Warrior up for him. And I learned about it specifically from watching others do it and discuss it in 1999. The difference between Warriors who weapon swapped or not during that era was always something that could be immediately felt in groups. We didn't allow any Warriors into our guild who weren't doing it, after we told them the trick and tested them in groups.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So? That wouldn't be disallowed and can be quickly proven on video that it's not a program interacting with the game code. I've literally done that before in another game, weighing down one of the keys on my keyboard because it was beneficial to keep it pressed at all times.


Feel free to get a Palladius Axe and test the GM's with your hardware and scripts. If they look at the forums they know you'll be doing that. Nobody else is going to do gameplay that requires scripts and/or hardware. Good luck!

[Jimjam]

I did this for many, many hours during Classic, leveling my friend's Warrior up for him. And I learned about it specifically from watching others do it and discuss it in 1999.

There is your issue. It works better in the classic client.

[Zuranthium]

Nobody else is going to do gameplay that requires scripts and/or hardware.

Categorically wrong. You're sitting here trying to say that people don't use gaming mouses, when obviously tons of people do. It's silly to argue so obtusely. People will use any better hardware if it's available to them and there's no rule against it. I will be glad to use the even more advanced technology that's around decades from now when I might want to play EQ again as an elderly person with time to spare (hopefully we'll have a better version of classic EQ by then, and in full virtual reality).

And tons of people have used scrips on p99, LOL. Thankfully no script that interacts with the game or creates additional inputs is needed for this anyway, breaking no rules.

It works better in the classic client.

Another thing for the p99 devs to work on then! It's still doable on p99 within certain time frames regardless, making it especially beneficially for untwinked and lower level Warriors/Rangers.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Categorically wrong. You're sitting here trying to say that people don't use gaming mouses, when obviously tons of people do. It's silly to argue so obtusely. People will use any better hardware if it's available to them and there's no rule against it. I will be glad to use the even more advanced technology that's around decades from now when I might want to play EQ again as an elderly person with time to spare (hopefully we'll have a better version of classic EQ by then, and in full virtual reality).

And tons of people have used scrips on p99, LOL. Thankfully no script that interacts with the game or creates additional inputs is needed for this anyway, breaking no rules.


You clearly haven't read the rules:


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651


5. You may not use third-party programs on Project 1999.

The use of any third-party programs on Project 1999, including but not limited to, Macroquest/Macroquest2(MQ/MQ2), ShowEQ(SEQ), or any other program that interacts with the Everquest Titanium Client, is strictly prohibited. Use of any third-party programs will be detected and will result in the permanent banning of your account(s). No exceptions will be made, and once a ban has been enacted for violation of this rule it will not be reversed.

This is not limited to programmable keyboards or other input devices that creates multiple inputs for a single keystroke or automated task.

Wineq2 by Lavishsoft is the exception to this rule. In addition, any program that strictly reads log files is acceptable.


You are not allowed to use scripts, programmable keyboards/mice, etc.

If you get caught, you will be banned. Someone with a Palladius Axe is not going to risk getting banned for a few extra DPS.

[Jimjam]

Another thing for the p99 devs to work on then! It's still doable on p99 within certain time frames regardless, making it especially beneficially for untwinked and lower level Warriors/Rangers.

Too risky without being able to reliably swap quickly. You also need to time for the enemy swing timer - about 1/20 swings will be riposted.

DSM you seem fluent in your dps tool - given a 5% riposte rate, how many swings is a lvl 45 npc likely to attempt per round, scaling for riposte chance what is the damage a player with a decent 2her likely to do from riposte per round?

How does this compare to the damage predicted for an offhand swing plus the riposte damage of a naked fist in the same time?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Too risky without being able to reliably swap quickly. You also need to time for the enemy swing timer - about 1/20 swings will be riposted.

DSM you seem fluent in your dps tool - given a 5% riposte rate, how many swings is a lvl 45 npc likely to attempt per round, scaling for riposte chance what is the damage a player with a decent 2her likely to do from riposte per round?

How does this compare to the damage predicted for an offhand swing plus the riposte damage of a naked fist in the same time?

I may have read your post wrong, so apologies if this doesn't answer your question.

I wouldn't worry too much about riposte chances from NPCs. From what I've parsed so far, mob riposte rate is lower than a player's, even at higher levels. A 5% Riposte rate is what my SK was getting in the high 50's.

My calculator basically sets Riposte/Block/Parry skill to 1 for NPCs when using autoscaling to try and get closer to what I have parsed. Even level 50 mobs have a significantly lower Riposte rate than players.

I haven't done large scale testing, so if someone else can provide logs showing a 5% riposte rate on mobs that would be interesting to look at.

[Jimjam]

Sorry for lack of clarity, I meant the player riposting against an npc - it is about 1/20 chance, which isn't bad - especially as an npc is likely do multiple swings per round.

What I'm trying to say is the player riposting with a 2 hander isn't insignificant damage, and I wonder how much more damage off-hand swapping + bare fist riposte does vs riposting with a 2 hander (cos off hand swapping would likely produce mainly fist ripostes).

[Zuranthium]

You clearly haven't read the rules

You are not allowed to use scripts, programmable keyboards/mice, etc.

You're the one who can't comprehend the rules. It says you're not allowed to use programs that alter the EQ client and you're not allowed to use programs that create multiple inputs with a single keystroke. There are no "multiple inputs" happening by having a more precise mouse. Just as there are not multiple inputs happening by having a gaming mouse with extra keys, which allows you to click more buttons than you otherwise would be able to. Something tons of people use. It's allowed, as is having an eye-tracker instead of a hand mouse.

Too risky without being able to reliably swap quickly.

There's no risk. Untwinked characters have an attack delay of more than 4 seconds. Anyone with a working brain can reliably swap during that timeframe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry for lack of clarity, I meant the player riposting against an npc - it is about 1/20 chance, which isn't bad - especially as an npc is likely do multiple swings per round.

What I'm trying to say is the player riposting with a 2 hander isn't insignificant damage, and I wonder how much more damage off-hand swapping + bare fist riposte does vs riposting with a 2 hander (cos off hand swapping would likely produce mainly fist ripostes).

Oh I see. Riposte damage probably isn't very high. My calculator doesn't do player ripostes, only NPC ripostes. However, we can do a quick thought experiment:

Let's say our player is using a 46/44 weapon. That means their Weapon Damage * 2 + Damage Bonus = 129 damage at level 60.

Mobs generally hit every 2 seconds unslowed, so you'll get swung at 30 times per minute. 5% of 30 is 1.5. When factoring in the chance to miss the riposte, we can say you'll get 1 riposte hit per minute with a 5% chance to riposte.

This means on average you are probably getting something like 2-4 DPS from Riposte from your ToV 2H weapon. In theory the offhand swapping would still do more damage if you lose this Riposte DPS, assuming you didn't miss a significant amount of your 2h swings while swapping back and forth.

You're the one who can't comprehend the rules. It says you're not allowed to use programs that alter the EQ client and you're not allowed to use programs that create multiple inputs with a single keystroke. There are no "multiple inputs" happening by having a more precise mouse. Just as there are not multiple inputs happening by having a gaming mouse with extra keys, which allows you to click more buttons than you otherwise would be able to. Something tons of people use. It's allowed, as is having an eye-tracker instead of a hand mouse.

It is is you who didn't read the rules correctly. "Not limited to" means other kinds of hardware that does special stuff is prohibited, not just programmable mice and keyboards that do multiple inputs. That was just the hardware example they gave. Same with the software. You say "not limited to" so you don't have to list every possible hardware/software that is prohibited.

They explicitly state what the only exceptions are. You are allowed a standard keyboard/mouse, wineq2, and log reading programs.

Anything else is risking a ban. Nobody here is going to risk a ban for a few DPS. You are the only poster I know who is trying to interpret these rules differently.

[Zuranthium]

God you are so demented. GAMING MOUSES ARE ALLOWED. Tons of people use them, this isn't an argument whatsoever. There is absolutely no punishment for having a better computer or personal devices, LMAO. Nowhere does it say you are only allowed a "standard" keyboard and mouse (what is even the definition of "standard"?). You are just fabricating that. How would they even be able to police people from using mouses with extra buttons or eye-tracking mouse devices? They can't and don't.

Nobody here is going to risk a ban for a few DPS.

Clueless. While I obviously don't advocate using ShowEQ and such, lots of people have used those things regardless of the risk, with many going unnoticed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

God you are so demented. GAMING MOUSES ARE ALLOWED. Tons of people use them, this isn't an argument whatsoever.


I never said "gaming mice are not allowed". You can check the thread. What you are doing using the term "gaming mice" in a very broad sense to obfuscate the functionality of the mouse you are using. Not all gaming mice have special functionalities. I have a gaming mouse with a few extra buttons, none of which do anything special.

Mice with special functionalities like programmable inputs, multiple inputs, clicking on different parts of the screen other than where your cursor actually is, etc. are not allowed. The rules say so. You are just trying to laywerquest with me, which is irrelevant. The GM will just ban you, they won't care about your lawyerquesting.


Clueless. While I obviously don't advocate using ShowEQ and such, lots of people have used those things regardless of the risk, with many going unnoticed.


You are correct, people have cheated and gotten away with it. That is also risking a ban, which is my point. Plenty of people have been banned too.

Most people who play on P99 follow the rules. The ones who don't have mostly been banned already. You aren't going to convince anybody to use scripts and hardware that are against the rules, which is what you are doing. Lawyerquesting with me doesn't change what the rules actually are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You just use something that makes it so when you click your mouse, it always clicks the part of the screen you want.


There is no real point in continuing this back and forth. You already admitted you need to use "something" that modifies how your mouse works aside from it's standard functionality to get offhand weaving to work for non-monks.

That "something", whether it be a script or a piece of hardware, is against the rules. People are not going to use that "something" on P99 and risk a ban for a few DPS.

[Snaggles]

There is no real point in continuing this back and forth. You already admitted you need to use "something" that modifies how your mouse works aside from it's standard functionality to get offhand weaving to work for non-monks.

That "something", whether it be a script or a piece of hardware, is against the rules. People are not going to use that "something" on P99 and risk a ban for a few DPS.

While it was a distraction from your thread, I feel you accomplished a huge task. For years this person has been claiming people who don’t offhand swap melee every couple seconds are lazy and unskilled. Turns out they were just basing this on outsourcing the labor to programmable hardware.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

While it was a distraction from your thread, I feel you accomplished a huge task. For years this person has been claiming people who don’t offhand swap melee every couple seconds are lazy and unskilled. Turns out they were just basing this on outsourcing the labor to programmable hardware.

Agreed. Thanks! Since I am probably a masochist, I did do a test on my Monk to show what Offhand Swapping would look like on P99 using the legal method. No scripts, no special mice, no special hardware, no eye tracking (lol), etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH304a1EIjQ - Watch the first 10 minutes for the swapping. Second half is the test without swapping.

I was using TStaff in my Main Hand with 34% worn Haste. I was swapping to Addy Club on my Offhand between TStaff swings. Not saying I am great at it since this was my first time trying:

DPS with Offhand Swapping: 34970 over 604 seconds = 57.9 DPS
DPS without Offhand Swapping: 32121 over 598 seconds = 53.7 DPS

I did get like 4 DPS more with swapping to Addy Club. Monks do have much better hand to hand damage compared to every other class though, so I doubt a Warrior would even get a positive DPS boost by doing this. My DPS was probably being helped a decent amount by Monk Fist Damage with the Epic Fist modification.

The offhand swapping took way too much of my focus away from the game. It was tough to do anything else. You can see a few times where I messed up the swaps because I got distracted by something. This strategy is really not worth doing on P99 in my opinion.

I'm sure Zuranthium will call me a bad player or something. But he will probably never provide real evidence of himself doing this offhand swapping, so it's my evidence vs. his word now.

[Zuranthium]

You already admitted you need to use "something" that modifies how your mouse works aside from it's standard functionality to get offhand weaving to work for non-monks.

No I didn't. You have absolutely shit reading comprehension.

Offhand weapon swapping is perfectly viable with a totally "normal" setup as long as your haste % is not too high; higher mechanical ability will result in higher and higher potential performance. Someone has even talked about how they've used it in this thread. Maybe the p99 client is not as good as the classic client, but goal of p99 is to get there, so what's important is discussing how things are supposed to be.

And no, it's not punishable to use a more precise mouse, but keep pretending like you're an admin (while admitting you would hack all users' computers to check for such a thing) when you aren't. Anyone can also change the mouse sensitivity settings on their computer, just as people have also done things like turn up their gamma a ton to curb the effects of nightblindness in game. There's been 0 punishment ever.

Since I am probably a masochist, I did do a test on my Monk to show what Offhand Swapping would look like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH304a1EIjQ

You're either a troll or completely lost. This is all wrong. The whole point is to swap after the Two-hander swing, and without fist damage (you can not leave auto-attack on). You're just spamming the swap with zero regard to when the Two-hand swing is actually happening. Look at how the vast majority of your hits are "you punch", and not "you crush" (attacking with actual weapons). It shouldn't ever say punch.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No I didn't. You have absolutely shit reading comprehension...

And no, it's not punishable to use a more precise mouse...


Let's read your quote again:


You just use something that makes it so when you click your mouse, it always clicks the part of the screen you want


It is clear that "something" is a script or piece of hardware that saves positions on the screen. This allows you to click those saved positions instantly. With this setup, you don't need to move the mouse to these positions with your hand. That isn't allowed on P99.

If you were simply trying to describe how a mouse works, it was a poor description. It isn't an issue with my reading comprehension. Everybody knows how a mouse works, so I don't see the logical reason why you were trying to describe how a mouse works.


You're either a troll or completely lost. This is all wrong. The whole point is to swap after the Two-hander swing, and without fist damage (you can not leave auto-attack on). You're just spamming the swap with zero regard to when the Two-hand swing is actually happening. Look at how the vast majority of your hits are "you punch", and not "you crush" (attacking with actual weapons). It shouldn't ever say punch.

The video shows how obnoxious it is to do all of that clicking. As I said in my previous post, it took way too much focus away from the game to maintain those mouse clicks without messing up. Could I get better at this? Probably. I said this was my first time trying. The focus requirement is too much for normal play in my opinion, so I won't be using this strategy.

I await the video of you doing it way better! Please show us how it's done with your "precise mouse".

[Jimjam]

Hmm could you make a custom ui where the hotbar slot 1 button is also the next hot bar page button?

That way you could click the button, unequipping 2hs and changing to page 2, click again, swapping cursored item from 2hs to 1hs and changing to page 3, click again equipping 1hs to secondary and changing to page 4, click again to unequip 1hs and change to page 5, click again to change cursored item from 1hs to 2hs and change to page 6, then finally click again to equip 2hs to primary and change to page 7… then you’d have to hit your hotkey to go to page 1 and start the process again after 2hs swings…

Edit: you’d also need to disable autoattack before unequipping 2hs obviously. And on again after equipping secondary and maybe off and on again while juggling back to 2hs.

[Snaggles]

I forget outside swapping offhand weapons in and out every 2 seconds, Zuranthium is toggling attack on and off.

[loramin]

That isn't allowed on P99.

We all only know what the Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349) say, ie.:

5. You may not use third-party programs on Project 1999.

The use of any third-party programs on Project 1999, including but not limited to, Macroquest/Macroquest2(MQ/MQ2), ShowEQ(SEQ), or any other program that interacts with the Everquest Titanium Client, is strictly prohibited. Use of any third-party programs will be detected and will result in the permanent banning of your account(s). No exceptions will be made, and once a ban has been enacted for violation of this rule it will not be reversed.

This includes programmable keyboards or other devices that creates multiple inputs for a single keystroke or automated task.

Wineq2 by Lavishsoft is the exception to this rule. In addition, any program that strictly reads log files is acceptable.

But the line:

This includes programmable keyboards or other devices that creates multiple inputs for a single keystroke or automated task.


is the only one that even comes close to supporting your position. However, it doesn't, because it clearly doesn't cover programming a keyboard (or mouse) in a way that doesn't involve creating multiple inputs. The only way it could is if keyboard(/mouse) software was considered "third-party" ... but the line I quoted strongly suggests that keyboard/mouse software isn't unless it meets that criteria.

Side note: As it happens, I'm responsible for that line being added to the PnP ... but in my defense, I did not propose that verbiage (and wasn't a fan of it). I was just happy to see something added to the PnP at all, so I didn't push back on the potential issues I saw with what GM Derubael wrote (I think it was him; this was years ago).

For the record, I think the standard should be "you can't program your input devices to do anything a normal mouse/keyboard can't otherwise do". But, the staff writes the rules, and as written the PnP doesn't explicitly prohibit what Zura has proposed.

[Naethyn]

How does it translate to steam deck controller? It combines single buttons into things like alt + click or ctrl + click.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We all only know what the Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349) say, ie.:



But the line:



is the only one that even comes close to supporting your position. However, it doesn't, because it clearly doesn't cover programming a keyboard (or mouse) in a way that doesn't involve creating multiple inputs. The only way it could is if keyboard(/mouse) software was considered "third-party" ... but the line I quoted strongly suggests that keyboard/mouse software isn't unless it meets that criteria.

Side note: As it happens, I'm responsible for that line being added to the PnP ... but in my defense, I did not propose that verbiage (and wasn't a fan of it). I was just happy to see something added to the PnP at all, so I didn't push back on the potential issues I saw with what GM Derubael wrote (I think it was him; this was years ago).

For the record, I think the standard should be "you can't program your input devices to do anything a normal mouse/keyboard can't otherwise do". But, the staff writes the rules, and as written the PnP doesn't explicitly prohibit what Zura has proposed.

I disagree with your assessment. It says "not limited to" in the hardware section. The point of that language is to say the example given isn't the only thing banned, it's just an example.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651


This is not limited to programmable keyboards or other input devices that creates multiple inputs for a single keystroke or automated task.


If the devs want to come out and say it's fine, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Until then, I wouldn't advise doing something that could be banned based on the language of the rule.

EDIT: The rules are written slightly different in the PnP and the Guidebook. Both posts were last updated at the end of 2024 and the Guidebool was updated a month later, so it isn't like the guidebook is stale. The devs will hopefully clarify what they mean.

[Zuranthium]

Hmm could you make a custom ui where the hotbar slot 1 button is also the next hot bar page button?

That way you could click the button, unequipping 2hs and changing to page 2, click again, swapping cursored item from 2hs to 1hs and changing to page 3

Try it out!

Also speaking of custom UI, interesting how it's allowed to completely change that function of the game with a 3RD PARTY PROGRAM, creating significant advantages over using just the standard Everquest UI, yet there is a spazz here trying to argue that they could somehow detect and police what kind of mouse settings people are using to play the game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Try it out!

Also speaking of custom UI, interesting how it's allowed to completely change that function of the game with a 3RD PARTY PROGRAM, creating significant advantages over using just the standard Everquest UI, yet there is a spazz here trying to argue that they could somehow detect and police what kind of mouse settings people are using to play the game.

You don't seem to understand what things like third party programs actually are. Perhaps that is why you are confused. You've said before GINA shouldn't be used, even though the rules specify log reading programs are OK. You think UI modifications are third party programs when they are not. The client has a UI modification system already built in to it. That is what people use to make new UIs. So it's not too suprising you don't fully understand what kind of hardware is allowed.

You can do what you want. I am just warning you that what you are suggesting may be against the rules, and you can be banned for it. It's not worth taking the risk on an account you've put a lot of time into.

And yes, they can detect bot or hardware like behavior by looking at the data you send up to the server. If you are doing more mouse clicks per second than what is thought possible, they may see that as suspicious.

[Zuranthium]

You think UI modifications are third party programs when they are not.

A program that you put on your computer to drastically modify the client (which is how most people do it) is exactly a third party program. The EQ game client does not naturally provide a way to make more text boxes and things of that nature. Changing the text colors by manually adjusting a couple lines in the game file was the only thing people were doing in Classic (discounting the outright hackers), and that was something Verant themselves told people how to do.

If you are doing more mouse clicks per second than what is thought possible, they may see that as suspicious.

You aren't doing more mouse clicks per second than what is already possible. You aren't doing more mouse clicks at all, than what is already involved with weapon swapping. If someone wants to adjust their mouse settings or use a virtual mouse, it's no different than other personal adjustments that are allowed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A program that you put on your computer to drastically modify the client (which is how most people do it) is exactly a third party program. The EQ game client does not naturally provide a way to make more text boxes and things of that nature. Changing the text colors by manually adjusting a couple lines in the game file was the only thing people were doing in Classic (discounting the outright hackers), and that was something Verant themselves told people how to do.


The titanuim client does have a system built into it that allows the titanium client to read a new UI setup. That is what /loadskin does. That is not a third party program, that is a literal feature within the client. You are incorrect here.


You aren't doing more mouse clicks per second than what is already possible. You aren't doing more mouse clicks at all, than what is already involved with weapon swapping. If someone wants to adjust their mouse settings or use a virtual mouse, it's no different than other personal adjustments that are allowed.

If you are saving screen positions with a script or piece of hardware, you will be able to click more times per second, because you are instantly teleporting your mouse cursor to different positions instead of manually moving the cursor with your hand.

Again, I don't quite believe your story that you were simply suggesting to increase the speed of your mouse cursor with this quote:


You just use something that makes it so when you click your mouse, it always clicks the part of the screen you want


But to give you the benefit of the doubt, lets say you are using a basic mouse and keyboard with a mouse that just has a high cursor speed. From my testing, it takes too much focus away from the game to do this kind of swapping. I wouldn't recommend people to do it. If you were allowed to use software or hardware that teleported your mouse around the screen, offhand swapping would be more feasible. You would be using hotkeys to offhand swap rather than constantly watching where your mouse cursor is.

[Zuranthium]

From my testing, it takes too much focus away from the game to do this kind of swapping.

It doesn't in many cases, as your own testing video shows. Playing melee in this game largely involves standing in one place and not having to do anything else while you stare at the screen. Which is exactly what you were doing. When you are standing around and doing nothing else, there ample room to be inputting other actions when possible. Weapon swapping fills that void, and like I've constantly said, is especially viable with lower haste amounts.

It's not a FUN mechanic, but melee combat in EQ is not fun anyway. Especially on a new server or untwinked character, I'd much rather put the effort in and increase my DPS, than just stand there waiting 4+ seconds between weapon swings and knowing that I'm leveling slower and contributing less to the group as a result. And especially for Warriors, this is crucial for building up more aggro.

[Naethyn]

Is it better than in combat bind wound though?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn't in many cases, as your own testing video shows. Playing melee in this game largely involves standing in one place and not having to do anything else while you stare at the screen. Which is exactly what you were doing. When you are standing around and doing nothing else, there ample room to be inputting other actions when possible. Weapon swapping fills that void, and like I've constantly said, is especially viable with lower haste amounts.

It's not a FUN mechanic, but melee combat in EQ is not fun anyway. Especially on a new server or untwinked character, I'd much rather put the effort in and increase my DPS, than just stand there waiting 4+ seconds between weapon swings and knowing that I'm leveling slower and contributing less to the group as a result. And especially for Warriors, this is crucial for building up more aggro.

For me the constant swapping made it difficult to do other things, even basic stuff like moving around. You just can't really see that in the video. I had to constantly babysit the swapping, or risk misclicking. It took more focus than doing something like fighting a solo challenge mob on my Torpor Shaman. This is because I wasn't able to use hotkeys for this, I had to spend a lot of my focus watching the cursor.

I wouldn't want to do this for hours at a time. My hand was also uncomfortable. I doubt it would be able to do this for even an hour.

[kjs86z2]

It's not a FUN mechanic, but melee combat in EQ is not fun anyway. Especially on a new server or untwinked character, I'd much rather put the effort in and increase my DPS, than just stand there waiting 4+ seconds between weapon swings and knowing that I'm leveling slower and contributing less to the group as a result. And especially for Warriors, this is crucial for building up more aggro.

meanwhile the mage is crankin it on the hub while his mage pet does 4x your dmg