Gearing a ranger

[bcbrown]

I've gotten my ranger up to 51 now, with mostly EC gear but a couple fun no-drop weapons. I have a couple questions on armor as well, but wanted to start with weapons. I've got:

Fellspine's Tail (https://wiki.project1999.com/Fellspine%27s_Tail), 7/17
Revultant Whip (https://wiki.project1999.com/Revultant_Whip), 5/14
Jagged Blade of Mourning (https://wiki.project1999.com/Jagged_Blade_of_Mourning), 13/25
Infestation (https://wiki.project1999.com/Infestation) 9/18 w/ 150 damage poison proc
Woodsman's Staff (https://wiki.project1999.com/Woodsman%27s_Staff) 31/35
Swarmcaller (https://wiki.project1999.com/Swarmcaller) 29/41 w/ slow proc

What should I be using? I'm going to be doing some parsing but just from superficial impressions it seems like the woody is going to be better than any combination of the one-handers.

What are the next upgrades? It seems like the woody is so good it might be a long time before I get anything better. I'm close to swiftwind but not earthcaller; would something like Wurmslayer + Swiftwind be better than woody and SCHW for haste? SWoZ? Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn? What should I be looking for and planning for?

[kjs86z2]

woodsmans staff til epic is the standard

keep swarmcaller around its fantastic for weird duos / trios

[Keebz]

would something like Wurmslayer + Swiftwind be better than woody and SCHW for haste? SWoZ?

It will be better dps. For soloing, it may not be the best strategy though, unless you're fear kiting. For face tanking, I'd probably try jousting/bow rotting with Herbalist's Spade/Swarmcaller.

I wouldn't over think droppable upgrades too much. I would just grind it out til raid loot. That's where all the fun upgrades are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It will be better dps. For soloing, it may not be the best strategy though, unless you're fear kiting. For face tanking, I'd probably try jousting/bow rotting with Herbalist's Spade/Swarmcaller.

I wouldn't over think droppable upgrades too much. I would just grind it out til raid loot. That's where all the fun upgrades are.

Yeah I would have thought Bow Kiting, Fear Kiting, or Jousting would be the way to go on a Ranger in their 50s. Mobs will start hitting too hard to simply face tank efficiently, especially when you get unlucky on your Swarmcaller Procs. I guess you could face tank while dumping your mana into healing, but that won't be very efficient.

[Goregasmic]

Herbalist's spade is better than woodsman if you don't mind the root proc. Not by a huge marging so it depends on your budget. Argent protector is kinda nice with the 49dly for bowing if you're so inclined. Decent stats too. Not much worse than woodsman.

Wurmslayer sucks ass, you lose out on the damage bonus too much, at 60 it is about on par with a lamentation. Might work pre damage bonus but you don't want to DW until ~50 anyway. For mainhand If you have the budget SBoZ is hard to beat, exquisite velium battle hammer at 12/20 isn't too bad either for half the price. But unless you can DW like... horn of hsagra and a Blade of carnage (and even then) you're not gonna touch the efficiency of a shovel/woodsman. And a shovel + COCW or SSHB will give you best damage + 34% haste for about the price of a single SBoZ.

[Snaggles]

Woodsman was often seen as beat by a great 1h (like SBOZ) and epic. TBH, I’m not sure if that was true and these days 2h have a better advantage as the damage bonus grows in the late 50’s. Killing some 6 min spawns like Dyrna I used to mix in Firestrike for a dps boost with a 2h. Plus if the mob has a damage shield, 2h isn’t a suicide mission.

The Rev whip is fun but in my experience wasn’t quite as good as a 10/18. I still use my mine on occasion just for fun.

I’d prob just stay the course with the Woodsman. Maybe even loot a raid 2h and never bother with 1h’s. Unless you get a raid 1h first. That bump between EC and ntov is significant with a ranger. Not needed but it’s very noticeable.

Edit: I doubt a HoH would out damage a SBoZ consistently. It’s a 1.833 vs 1.855 ratio and I recall piercing at 60 caps 10 points lower, which should be about a 30attack power disadvantage.

[Goregasmic]

Mainhand:
Rev whip = 1.5
Jade mace = 1.611
Earthcaller = 1.625
GCM = 1.65
CBoL = 1.722
Exq. Velium = 1.75
SBoZ = 1.833
HOH = 1.855

Offhand:
Swiftwind = 1.238 (and 41% haste)
SBoZ = 1.222
BoC = 1.304

2h:
Argent P. = 2.571
Woodsman = 2.611
Herb shovel = 2,674

Technically a SBoZ + epic scores 3,071 which is higher than the 2handers but you have what, 40% miss rate on offhands? So that swiftwind 1.238 becomes 0.743 so 2.576 combined which is about on par with an argent protector that is now worth 2,5k on green. Nothing wrong with 1handers but they're a lot more money/hassle for similar results on paper. 5% extra haste and +30atk with swiftwind compared to a 36% item and you free up a slot though so that's nice but you now have to get at least a CBoL just to stay on par with a cheap 2hander.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mainhand:
Rev whip = 1.5
Jade mace = 1.611
Earthcaller = 1.625
GCM = 1.65
CBoL = 1.722
Exq. Velium = 1.75
SBoZ = 1.833
HOH = 1.855

Offhand:
Swiftwind = 1.238 (and 41% haste)
SBoZ = 1.222
BoC = 1.304

2h:
Argent P. = 2.571
Woodsman = 2.611
Herb shovel = 2,674

Technically a SBoZ + epic scores 3,071 which is higher than the 2handers but you have what, 40% miss rate on offhands? So that swiftwind 1.238 becomes 0.743 so 2.576 combined which is about on par with an argent protector that is now worth 2,5k on green. Nothing wrong with 1handers but they're a lot more money/hassle for similar results on paper. 5% extra haste and +30atk with swiftwind compared to a 36% item and you free up a slot though so that's nice but you now have to get at least a CBoL just to stay on par with a cheap 2hander.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440

I did a post on 1h vs 2h DPS for my 52 Monk. In the low 50s 1h combos can out DPS 2h weapons. This is because the 2h damage bonus is smaller. My Epic Fist + SoS was out DPSing an IFS when I wasn't fistweaving. They were very similar when fistweaving. Rangers can't fistweave, so it wouldn't surprise me if something like Wurmslayer + Swiftwind could out-DPS a Woodsman Staff at 52.

That being said, Fear Kiting, Bow Kiting, or Jousting would probably work better for solo Rangers in their 50s. 1h weapons don't work well for any of those strategies, so it's somewhat of a moot point.

Hopefully Bcbrown will share some parsing at some point to see if there is any significant difference between Monks and Rangers. Monks do have higher dual wield in the low 50s, so that will be a bit different from a Ranger.

[Snaggles]

At 60 the offhand swings 75% as much as the main hand. I spent half an hour on Bloodmaw parsing and that was the only thing I gleaned from it. Low 50’s I’d say 60% swing ratio is probably fairly close, if not 65%.

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

In general whenever it is close, the tie for me goes to 2h. My best DW and 2h setups on paper are within about 3% but in practice best vs best parsed the 2h is about 10% better. I wish it wasn’t the case…DW is certainly fun. Also, with a ranger often rooting and bowing a bit becomes part of your play. Or casting a spell or two. In either case bow damage is bonused from the MH weapon, yet delay isn’t affected by the MH. While casting and DW’ing you will swing as soon as you are done casting, even fast spells are tough to cast without it impacting your dps. It’s a reason these days I might consider an argent protector over a woodsman. With that I think Firestrike is viable to use when mana isn’t an issue (ie 7 min spawn camping).

Really the best thing is just compare with your own parse. Or without a program, see on average how much hp you end a fight with using each setup (or how much you damage the npc until rooting is needed). Most people will do this a couple times and then make a blanket assessment. Folks like bcbrown will end up with far more notes and the ability to draw objective conclusions for their own needs. Or at least it will help make the time go by which is 99% of EQ anyways :) .

[Snaggles]

While leveling, I remember occasionally root-jousting for a Swarm slow and then switching to my dps weapon(s). Or just doing this with a lumpy 2h until I could reroot for more bowing. The Argent Protector or Herbalist Spade would be ace for this.

[Goregasmic]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440

I did a post on 1h vs 2h DPS for my 52 Monk. In the low 50s 1h combos can out DPS 2h weapons. This is because the 2h damage bonus is smaller. My Epic Fist + SoS was out DPSing an IFS when I wasn't fistweaving. They were very similar when fistweaving. Rangers can't fistweave, so it wouldn't surprise me if something like Wurmslayer + Swiftwind could out-DPS a Woodsman Staff at 52.

That being said, Fear Kiting, Bow Kiting, or Jousting would probably work better for solo Rangers in their 50s. 1h weapons don't work well for any of those strategies, so it's somewhat of a moot point.

Hopefully Bcbrown will share some parsing at some point to see if there is any significant difference between Monks and Rangers. Monks do have higher dual wield in the low 50s, so that will be a bit different from a Ranger.

Yeah, as usual, trust but verify especially before 60 if you care to optimize. At 50 damage bonus and DW starts being significant and at 55+ ranger get an innate offensive bonus. Might play out a little different from expectations. Also, the mobs you fight might mix it up a little.

The previous numbers are weapon basics but other factors may skew the results. It is possible epic + SBoZ fares better (I'd hope so) but you're probably not too far off with an AP especially considering bow damage, weaving casts and jousting like snaggles said... for less than a tenth of the price.

If anything we're seeing both options are viable, which it kinda nice but it depends on your budget. I'm a big fan of slow two handers, feel so good when double attack connects for max damage but missing 4 times in a row when the mob is about to flee and you're about to hit low hp aggro... it makes you want to scream. I know some people can't stand it and I understand.

[bcbrown]

keep swarmcaller around its fantastic for weird duos / trios

Absolutely. Right around when I first got my swarmcaller and was in CoM, I was in a group that I think was something like a rogue, an SK, and me. Think we had potg/c2 but no in-group healer. I would pull, swing till I procced a slow, then back off and heal the SK until it was time to pull the next one. I really love making a weird pug work.

I wouldn't over think droppable upgrades too much. I would just grind it out til raid loot. That's where all the fun upgrades are.

I think this is what I was really asking. I knew a woody was the best leveling weapon, but now that I'm in the 50s and raiding Kael and the planes is there a better setup? Seems like all the responses confirm my sense that no, until the nice raid loot the woody's gonna be Good Enough.

Herbalist's spade is better than woodsman if you don't mind the root proc. Not by a huge marging so it depends on your budget. Argent protector is kinda nice with the 49dly for bowing if you're so inclined. Decent stats too. Not much worse than woodsman.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Out of those three I like the woody for roleplaying/aesthetic reasons, and I didn't think I was giving up enough DPS to regret that choice. I had a worn shai`din naginata before getting the woody, but eventually sold it because I figured the 41 delay on the swarmcaller was good enough for archery and it was nice not to have yet one more weapon in my bags.

The Rev whip is fun but in my experience wasn’t quite as good as a 10/18. I still use my mine on occasion just for fun.

It sure is fun but that's my experience too. Still glad I went to the effort to grab one, though.

At 60 the offhand swings 75% as much as the main hand. I spent half an hour on Bloodmaw parsing and that was the only thing I gleaned from it. Low 50’s I’d say 60% swing ratio is probably fairly close, if not 65%.

My parsing across 30 minutes shows a 65% DW success rate.

[Keebz]

Get better haste. Off-hand epic is good and you'll want it anyway, but doesn't work with 2h, so maybe get a belt/back piece as well.

[kjs86z2]

No need to make this complicated. Woody + Swarmcaller + Seahorse belt is all you need til epics.

After epics save dkp for Melj + 41% haste if you wanna do big dick parses. If you don't care epics are completely fine. Velious was beat in Kunark gear.

[bcbrown]

Mainhand:
Rev whip = 1.5
Jade mace = 1.611
Earthcaller = 1.625
GCM = 1.65
CBoL = 1.722
Exq. Velium = 1.75
SBoZ = 1.833
HOH = 1.855

How are these numbers calculated?

I did a post on 1h vs 2h DPS for my 52 Monk. In the low 50s 1h combos can out DPS 2h weapons. This is because the 2h damage bonus is smaller. My Epic Fist + SoS was out DPSing an IFS when I wasn't fistweaving. They were very similar when fistweaving. Rangers can't fistweave, so it wouldn't surprise me if something like Wurmslayer + Swiftwind could out-DPS a Woodsman Staff at 52.

Your combat model is neither useful nor accurate. The difference between your estimate for the FM giants (34 vs 34.34) and your actual parsed results (30.67 DPS vs 31.5) is larger than the difference between the two sets of weapons. You also need to use the actual results (when you scale your Coroduth numbers by 30.67 / 55.7 to find that "mitigation offset" number). Any approach that needs the actual results when making an estimate is, to use a technical term, fucked beyond redemption.

It's both simpler and just as accurate to just calculate (2*damage + damage bonus) / delay as a way to compare different weapons. And if that gives you a result where two weapon-sets come out within a DPS or two, you can either treat them as equivalent or do the actual parsing to confirm.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your combat model is neither useful nor accurate. The difference between your estimate for the FM giants (34 vs 34.34) and your actual parsed results (30.67 DPS vs 31.5) is larger than the difference between the two sets of weapons. You also need to use the actual results (when you scale your Coroduth numbers by 30.67 / 55.7 to find that "mitigation offset" number). Any approach that needs the actual results when making an estimate is, to use a technical term, fucked beyond redemption.

It's both simpler and just as accurate to just calculate (2*damage + damage bonus) / delay as a way to compare different weapons. And if that gives you a result where two weapon-sets come out within a DPS or two, you can either treat them as equivalent or do the actual parsing to confirm.

You need to re-read my post, as you clearly didn't understand it. Please do not let your obvious biases cloud your ability to think, as you so often do. It doesn't help the conversations, or your understanding of the game.

Each mob has a different AC value, which isn't known to anybody but the devs of P99. Of course you need to get the actual results from each mob, because they have different AC values. These AC values will change the final result that skews the dice roll that determines which damage value to use (the mitigation offset).

Level difference is also a large factor in the equation. This is why Corudoth is a good mob to start with. A level 5 mob has a 55 level difference compared to a level 60, which will heavily skew the mitigation offset towards 1.0.

[Snaggles]

How are these numbers calculated?

The few I checked seem dmg x 2 + 11 (bonus at 60) / delay

For mainland that’s accurate using the common method.

Per level it changes though. That Lucy’s table seems accurate. It’s at least accurate per the few 2hs I’ve checked using bow crit math (hit - crit = damage bonus) at level 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your combat model is neither useful nor accurate. The difference between your estimate for the FM giants (34 vs 34.34) and your actual parsed results (30.67 DPS vs 31.5) is larger than the difference between the two sets of weapons. You also need to use the actual results (when you scale your Coroduth numbers by 30.67 / 55.7 to find that "mitigation offset" number). Any approach that needs the actual results when making an estimate is, to use a technical term, fucked beyond redemption.

It's both simpler and just as accurate to just calculate (2*damage + damage bonus) / delay as a way to compare different weapons. And if that gives you a result where two weapon-sets come out within a DPS or two, you can either treat them as equivalent or do the actual parsing to confirm.

Let me explain my post in a slightly different way, as you didn't seem to grasp the point of the post I made. Here is the post being referenced:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440

We don't have all of the information for P99's damage formula and mob stats. Therefore we must backwards engineer this information using real data from mobs. When backwards engineering, you need to find a mob that can act as a control for the upper bounds of the proposed damage formula. Corudoth is a good mob to use for this, because it is level 5.

A 47 level difference will heavily skew the damage formula. This much as been observed by players time and time again. The data I provided also shows this. I did 55 DPS to Corudoth, and 30 DPS to the FM Giants. My DPS almost doubled when attacking a mob that was 47 levels below me compared to a mob that was only 2 levels below me. This shows how much level difference affects the damage formula.

Obviously the actual mitigation offset of Corudoth is not exactly 1.0. It's probably something like 0.9 or 0.95. Since I don't have Corudoth's exact stats or P99's damage formula, I set the mitigation offset to 1.0 on Corudoth for simplicity to show how the scaling works. This will skew the predicted DPS numbers to be a bit higher than the actual DPS numbers. This is why the predicted DPS for the FM giants was 34 instead of 30.

[Snaggles]

DSM,

Not to slippery slope this, since dps always matters, but a ranger is a “greater than the sum of its parts” kind of class.

Outright ratio is great for end-game parsing but means less as you grind to 60. The toolbox of spells and skills is what makes the fun and the results. I had horrid gear and frankly learned a lot banging my head against the wall.

I’d never criticize the objective. At some point, it’s all that matters. Much of the ranger life is the underdog game though.

I’d be leaning to 2h mainly to avoid damage shield issues, or to maximize bow shot damage (as it’s less tolan bracer clicks). HP recovery is a real pain so it’s an important metric to keep in mind.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’d be leaning to 2h mainly to avoid damage shield issues, or to maximize bow shot damage (as it’s less tolan bracer clicks). HP recovery is a real pain so it’s an important metric to keep in mind.

Indeed. I already agreed with you that 2h weapons would work better for a solo Ranger in their 50s due to the strategies they would employ:


That being said, Fear Kiting, Bow Kiting, or Jousting would probably work better for solo Rangers in their 50s. 1h weapons don't work well for any of those strategies, so it's somewhat of a moot point.


I brought up the DPS of 1h weapons because OP was asking about what weapons were "better":


What are the next upgrades? It seems like the woody is so good it might be a long time before I get anything better. I'm close to swiftwind but not earthcaller; would something like Wurmslayer + Swiftwind be better than woody and SCHW for haste? SWoZ? Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn? What should I be looking for and planning for?

Wurmslayer + Swiftwind will probably out DPS woody in a toe-to-toe battle at level 51, due to how the damage formula most likely works: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440 . I just wanted to be sure OP understood that woody is not "better" DPS-wise, it is "better" strategy-wise.

[Goregasmic]

How are these numbers calculated?

(2*damage + damage bonus) / delay

Dmg bonus at 60. 2h uses the lucy damage charts to calculate 2h bonus. From my understanding that's the commonly used method of comparison.

I noticed for 2handers, usually just checking the ratio between weapons will give you a very good indicator of where they stand against eachother.

For 1h mainhand, speed matters a lot due to damage bonus and ratios are mostly useless.

[Snaggles]

There are some edge cases. The Blam Stick at 30/40 due to raw ratio is about on par with a SBoZ unless the mob AC is very high.

BFG is another strange one. 20/50 but double damage, arrow damage, crits and disc. I figure just based on 8dmg silver arrows it’s about a 2.46 ratio before the disc.

[bcbrown]

(2*damage + damage bonus) / delay

Dmg bonus at 60. 2h uses the lucy damage charts to calculate 2h bonus. From my understanding that's the commonly used method of comparison.

I noticed for 2handers, usually just checking the ratio between weapons will give you a very good indicator of where they stand against eachother.

For 1h mainhand, speed matters a lot due to damage bonus and ratios are mostly useless.

Ah, I was mistakenly looking at the last column on the Lucy chart, but that's level 65 not 60. Now it makes sense. I agree with you that this is the right approach for getting ballpark ideas on comparing weapons.

You need to re-read my post, as you clearly didn't understand it.
It's been a few months since that discussion, so I'm revisiting your analysis and data and it looks like it's flawed from the very start. I'm using this post for the raw data: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708758&postcount=402, where you say:


==========================
2h IFS parse on Giants.
==========================
16964 damage over 553 seconds = 30.68 DPS with fistweaving
15023 damage over 553 seconds = 27.5 DPS without fistweaving
207 punch swings / 297 crush swings = 70% dual wield chance.

==========================
1h Epic Fist + SoS Giant Parse
==========================
16712 damage over 552 seconds = 30.28 DPS
305 crush swings / 730 punch swings = 42% chance to dual wield.

==========================
2h IFS parse Corudoth
==========================
31414 damage over 553 seconds = 56.8 DPS with fistweaving
27455 damage over 553 seconds = 49.6 DPS without fistweaving

==========================
1h Epic + SoS Parse Corudoth
==========================
30819 damage over 553 seconds = 55.7 DPS

Given the data in the spoiler tags, I think you messed up the basic counts. For IFS on giants I get the same damage figures, but I count 123 punches and 183 crushes, not 207 and 297. Similarly on the 1h parse, I also calculate 16712 total damage, but 469 punches and 213 crushes, not 730 and 305.

Could you recheck your figures?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, I was mistakenly looking at the last column on the Lucy chart, but that's level 65 not 60. Now it makes sense. I agree with you that this is the right approach for getting ballpark ideas on comparing weapons.


It's been a few months since that discussion, so I'm revisiting your analysis and data and it looks like it's flawed from the very start. I'm using this post for the raw data: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708758&postcount=402, where you say:



Given the data in the spoiler tags, I think you messed up the basic counts. For IFS on giants I get the same damage figures, but I count 123 punches and 183 crushes, not 207 and 297. Similarly on the 1h parse, I also calculate 16712 total damage, but 469 punches and 213 crushes, not 730 and 305.

Could you recheck your figures?

I didn't include the misses in the logs to make it easier for people to double check the damage numbers. This is why I said "swings" instead of hits. My numbers include the misses.

I would advise you look at the post as a whole first, instead of fixating on trying to disprove specific details like this. You tend to do that a lot, and miss the forest for the trees. I don't mind constructive critisism, it helps hone my argument. But you have a bias towards me that tends to cloud your ability to read my posts, and it just wastes everybody's time.

[bcbrown]

I didn't include the misses in the logs to make it easier for people to double check the damage numbers. This is why I said "swings" instead of hits. My numbers include the misses.

Great, that makes sense. I'm just trying to make sense of your math. With that addition then is my little spreadsheet an accurate summary of your raw data?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Great, that makes sense. I'm just trying to make sense of your math. With that addition then is my little spreadsheet an accurate summary of your raw data?

I'm not going to engage with you until you read the entire post first. I will not continue to enable your pattern of assuming everybody is wrong, and using any mistake you hope to find as justification for thinking this. You won't learn the game this way. You are supposedly good at math, read the post and think about it.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708955&postcount=440

[Snaggles]

Another classic derail in the works.

I’m so glad monks can’t play a race with FSI or this train would be speeding towards a ravine…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Another classic derail in the works.

I’m so glad monks can’t play a race with FSI or this train would be speeding towards a ravine…


Nonsense posts like this simply spam the thread. This doesn't hurt me or help you.

[Snaggles]

Nonsense posts like this simply spam the thread. This doesn't hurt me or help you.

Oh laugh a little :)

I’ve helped the thread quite a bit. For a nonsense poster I know quite a bit about this class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh laugh a little :)

I’ve helped the thread quite a bit. For a nonsense poster I know quite a bit about this class.

You have been helpful! I didn't say your on-topic posts were bad. It was your off-topic posts that were bad:)

[Oakwynd]

Which would you say is a more reliable slow (do two handers proc a bit more reliably)?

Epic or swarmcaller?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me simplify my post on how to determine weapon DPS. This is useful when trying to compare 1h weapons and 2h weapons.

The data being used can be found below in these Youtube links. Download links to Log files are in the video descriptions.

https://youtu.be/Ub0bfwyKpE0 - 10 min FM Giant Parse

https://youtu.be/YXh1lQyRZ_A - 10 min Corudoth Parse

============================================
Corudoth Epic Fist Primary Hand (645 Hits, 64 misses, over 553 seconds)
Log Start Time: [Fri Nov 22 19:54:53 2024]
Log End Time: [Fri Nov 22 20:04:06 2024]
============================================

Damage value = 44 - 17 instances
Damage value = 43 - 16 instances
Damage value = 42 - 20 instances
Damage value = 41 - 23 instances
Damage value = 40 - 17 instances
Damage value = 39 - 24 instances
Damage value = 38 - 22 instances
Damage value = 37 - 24 instances
Damage value = 36 - 23 instances
Damage value = 35 - 22 instances
Damage value = 34 - 17 instances
Damage value = 33 - 24 instances
Damage value = 32 - 20 instances
Damage value = 31 - 18 instances
Damage value = 30 - 21 instances
Damage value = 29 - 26 instances
Damage value = 28 - 21 instances
Damage value = 27 - 205 instances
Damage value = 26 - 4 instances
Damage value = 25 - 4 instances
Damage value = 24 - 5 instances
Damage value = 23 - 10 instances
Damage value = 22 - 4 instances
Damage value = 21 - 8 instances
Damage value = 20 - 6 instances
Damage value = 19 - 6 instances
Damage value = 18 - 7 instances
Damage value = 17 - 5 instances
Damage value = 16 - 4 instances
Damage value = 15 - 6 instances
Damage value = 14 - 4 instances
Damage value = 13 - 5 instances
Damage value = 12 - 5 instances
Damage value = 11 - 3 instances
Damage value = 0 - 64 instances (misses)

21% below Average, 29% at Average, 50% above Average

(19855 Damage / 710 Swings) = 27.96 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing

710 swings in 553 seconds = 1.28 swings per second at 34% haste including Double Attacks

27.96 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing * 1.28 Swings Per Second = 35.79 DPS

==============================================
Corudoth Stave of Shielding Off Hand (276 hits, 26 misses, over 553 seconds)
Log Start Time: [Fri Nov 22 19:54:53 2024]
Log End Time: [Fri Nov 22 20:04:06 2024]
==============================================

Damage value = 68 - 4 instances
Damage value = 67 - 4 instances
Damage value = 66 - 2 instances
Damage value = 65 - 6 instances
Damage value = 64 - 3 instances
Damage value = 63 - 2 instances
Damage value = 62 - 4 instances
Damage value = 61 - 4 instances
Damage value = 60 - 1 instance
Damage value = 59 - 4 instances
Damage value = 58 - 5 instances
Damage value = 57 - 8 instances
Damage value = 56 - 1 instance
Damage value = 55 - 3 instances
Damage value = 54 - 2 instances
Damage value = 53 - 4 instances
Damage value = 52 - 6 instances
Damage value = 51 - 5 instances
Damage value = 50 - 5 instances
Damage value = 49 - 3 instances
Damage value = 48 - 5 instances
Damage value = 47 - 3 instances
Damage value = 46 - 5 instances
Damage value = 45 - 4 instances
Damage value = 44 - 1 instance
Damage value = 43 - 4 instances
Damage value = 42 - 7 instances
Damage value = 41 - 6 instances
Damage value = 40 - 7 instances
Damage value = 39 - 4 instances
Damage value = 38 - 3 instances
Damage value = 37 - 7 instances
Damage value = 36 - 3 instances
Damage value = 35 - 4 instances
Damage value = 34 - 89 instances
Damage value = 32 - 1 instance
Damage value = 30 - 1 instance
Damage value = 29 - 2 instances
Damage value = 27 - 4 instances
Damage value = 26 - 3 instances
Damage value = 24 - 2 instances
Damage value = 22 - 8 instances
Damage value = 21 - 2 instances
Damage value = 20 - 5 instances
Damage value = 17 - 3 instances
Damage value = 16 - 1 instance
Damage value = 15 - 4 instances
Damage value = 14 - 2 instances
Damage value = 12 - 3 instances
Damage value = 11 - 1 instance
Damage value = 10 - 1 instance
Damage value = 9 - 2 instances
Damage value = 5 - 2 instances
Damage value = 3 - 1 instance
Damage value = 0 - 26 instances (misses)

25% below Average, 29% at Average, 46% above Average

(10964 Damage / 302 Swings ) = 36.3 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing

302 swings in 553 seconds = 0.54 Swings Per Second at 34% haste including Double Attacks

36.3 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing * 0.54 Swings Per Second = 19.6 DPS

================================================== =
Eldak Howlingbear Epic Fist Primary Hand (469 Hits, 261 Misses, over 552 seconds)
Log Start Time: [Fri Nov 22 16:30:04 2024]
Log End Time: [Fri Nov 22 17:00:04 2024]
================================================== =

Damage value = 44 - 6 instances
Damage value = 43 - 4 instances
Damage value = 42 - 6 instances
Damage value = 41 - 7 instances
Damage value = 40 - 1 instance
Damage value = 39 - 6 instances
Damage value = 38 - 3 instances
Damage value = 37 - 6 instances
Damage value = 36 - 6 instances
Damage value = 35 - 8 instances
Damage value = 34 - 9 instances
Damage value = 33 - 4 instances
Damage value = 32 - 15 instances
Damage value = 31 - 10 instances
Damage value = 30 - 12 instances
Damage value = 29 - 16 instances
Damage value = 28 - 9 instances
Damage value = 27 - 42 instances
Damage value = 26 - 16 instances
Damage value = 25 - 8 instances
Damage value = 24 - 11 instances
Damage value = 23 - 29 instances
Damage value = 22 - 12 instances
Damage value = 21 - 20 instances
Damage value = 20 - 18 instances
Damage value = 19 - 15 instances
Damage value = 18 - 21 instances
Damage value = 17 - 14 instances
Damage value = 16 - 26 instances
Damage value = 15 - 24 instances
Damage value = 14 - 24 instances
Damage value = 13 - 14 instances
Damage value = 12 - 13 instances
Damage value = 11 - 6 instances
Damage value = 10 - 28 instances
Damage value = 0 - 261 instances (misses)

76% below Average, 6% at Average, 18% above Average

10807 Damage / 730 Swings = 14.8 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing

730 swings in 552 seconds = 1.32 swings per second at 34% haste including Double Attacks

14.8 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing * 1.32 Swings Per Second = 19.54 DPS

================================================== ==
Eldak Howlingbear Stave of Shielding Off Hand (213 Hits, 92 Misses, over 552 seconds)
Log Start Time: [Fri Nov 22 16:30:04 2024]
Log End Time: [Fri Nov 22 17:00:04 2024]
================================================== ==

Damage value = 68 - 1 instance
Damage value = 66 - 3 instances
Damage value = 65 - 2 instances
Damage value = 64 - 3 instances
Damage value = 61 - 4 instances
Damage value = 58 - 1 instance
Damage value = 57 - 1 instance
Damage value = 56 - 2 instances
Damage value = 55 - 1 instance
Damage value = 54 - 1 instance
Damage value = 53 - 2 instances
Damage value = 52 - 1 instance
Damage value = 51 - 2 instances
Damage value = 50 - 3 instances
Damage value = 47 - 1 instance
Damage value = 46 - 2 instances
Damage value = 44 - 6 instances
Damage value = 43 - 1 instance
Damage value = 42 - 3 instances
Damage value = 41 - 2 instances
Damage value = 40 - 4 instances
Damage value = 39 - 1 instance
Damage value = 38 - 4 instances
Damage value = 37 - 7 instances
Damage value = 36 - 1 instance
Damage value = 35 - 1 instance
Damage value = 34 - 23 instances
Damage value = 33 - 4 instances
Damage value = 32 - 7 instances
Damage value = 31 - 5 instances
Damage value = 30 - 3 instances
Damage value = 29 - 7 instances
Damage value = 27 - 2 instances
Damage value = 26 - 7 instances
Damage value = 25 - 2 instances
Damage value = 24 - 4 instances
Damage value = 23 - 3 instances
Damage value = 22 - 3 instances
Damage value = 20 - 3 instances
Damage value = 19 - 7 instances
Damage value = 18 - 4 instances
Damage value = 17 - 6 instances
Damage value = 16 - 4 instances
Damage value = 15 - 3 instances
Damage value = 14 - 6 instances
Damage value = 13 - 2 instances
Damage value = 12 - 4 instances
Damage value = 11 - 2 instances
Damage value = 10 - 5 instances
Damage value = 9 - 4 instances
Damage value = 8 - 4 instances
Damage value = 7 - 5 instances
Damage value = 6 - 2 instances
Damage value = 5 - 7 instances
Damage value = 4 - 1 instance
Damage value = 3 - 1 instance
Damage value = 2 - 13 instances
Damage value = 0 - 92 instances (misses)

74% below Average, 7% at Average, 19% above Average

5905 Damage / 305 Swings = 19.36 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing

305 swings in 552 seconds = 0.55 swings per second at 34% haste including Double Attacks

19.36 Average Damage Per Weapon Swing * 0.55 Swings Per Second = 10.65 DPS

=====
Analysis
=====

1. For this experiment, Corudoth is the control mob. This is because Corudoth is level 5 and has 200k HP. A level 50+ player has a 45+ level difference compared to Corudoth. Level difference is a major factor in how Average Damage Per Weapon Swing is mitigated. A level difference of 45+ should show the highest possible Average Damage Per Weapon Swing for a given set of weapons practically speaking. Trying to get Average Damage Per Weapon Swing values on random level 1 mobs is difficult because a level 50+ player will kill a level 1 mob in one hit.

2. Practically speaking, any mob that is higher level than Corudoth should take less Average Damage Per Weapon Swing from a level 50+ player. Therefore Corudoth is the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing ceiling for a given set of weapons when testing Average Damage Per Weapon Swing on a level 50+ player.

3. At level 52, a Monk with Epic Fist in their primary hand will deal between 10 damage and 44 damage per hit. The average of these two damage values is 27 damage. There were 205 instances of 27 damage in the Corudoth data set for the Epic Fist in the Monk's primary hand. The next closest damage value was 29, with only 26 instances. The average of all the damage values in the Corudoth data set for the Epic Fist in primary hand is 27.96, which is only slightly higher than 27. This shows the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing ceiling is the average between the minimum damage and the maximum damage of the weapon. As mobs get more difficult, the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing will always be lower than the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing ceiling.

4. When fighting a level 50 mob as a level 52 Monk with Epic Fist in their primary hand, the average of all the damage values for the Epic Fist in primary hand was 14.8 damage. This shows that the level 50 mob is reducing the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing ceiling of 27 down to 14.8. 14.8 / 27 = 0.55. This means XP mobs within a few levels of a 50+ player are reducing the player's Average Damage Per Weapon Swing by roughly half compared to the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing ceiling.

5. By using Corudoth as the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing ceiling, we can simply multiply the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing of the weapon by a scalar between 0.1 and 1.0, where 1.0 is the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing dealt to Corudoth, and 0.1 is the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing dealt to the hardest enemy to damage in the game. I call this scalar "Mitigation Offset". Thus far the rule of thumb seems to be ~0.5 is a good assumption to make for what the Mitigation Offset is when dealing with XP mobs within a few levels of a 50+ player, assuming your melee skills are trained up to their maximum. When looking at a raid mob like Avatar of War, you would want to use a lower Mitigation Offset like 0.25.

6. Average Damage Per Weapon Swing includes the chance to miss, so you can simply multiply the Average Damage Per Weapon Swing by the number of swings per second to get DPS.

7. This simple formula is good for comparing 1h and 2h weapons, because it can show you when one set of weapons will deal more damage than the other. Sometimes one weapon set will become better than another weapon set as the Mitigation Offset value changes. This is a function of the main hand damage bonus. The higher the main hand damage bonus of a 2h weapon is compared to a 1h weapon, the more likely a 2h weapon will out damage a 1h weapon set at a lower Mitigation Offset value.

=====
Formula
=====
((Weapon Min Damage + Weapon Max Damage) / 2) * Mitigation Offset * Swings Per Second = Weapon DPS

[Snaggles]

DW vs 2h is a contested topic for monks. Outside anyone with an Abashi or Bo Staff of Trorsmang, that is. There are a number of very good options for 1h and at 60 a Peacebringer is on par with a Priceless 2hb. Triple attack favors 2h but those quality 1h ratios are more plentiful.

With rangers the best 1h is a Baton of Flame. A weapon also bid on by monks. It tends to be priced far higher than a Shovel off Gozz or the Meljeldin. With a lower dual skill for rangers DW isn’t as competitive. Not to mention as a casting class a 2h lets you jolt off Call of Flame aggro (if being used to stop gaters), snare or nuke without any dps loss.

The path of upgrading a ranger in simplicity is: Level to 60 with something decent, get a raid weapon over all else. Ideally a 2h.

As for other gear, cheaper MR items can take you a long way. Tribal boots, Tranix crown, Jacinth rings, Imbued Granite Spaulders, etc. I still use a Loddy shield because those svs are hard to pass up. Outside the BFG maybe my second favorite item is the Ring of Stealthy Shadows. A 2 sec invis on a ranger is just too good to pass up.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Which would you say is a more reliable slow (do two handers proc a bit more reliably)?

Epic or swarmcaller?

1h weapons and 2h weapons proc at the same rate. If you dual wield 1h weapons you have a chance to proc the offhand weapon as well. So dual wielding two 1h proc weapons will see more procs in total over a 2h weapon.

Sadly there aren't two 1h weapons with a 50% slow proc. So you won't get a better chance at procing slow specifically when comparing Earthcaller and Swarmcaller.

[Snaggles]

^

Both epic and swarmcaller have same percentage and duration. Earthcall has a different slow message so it doesnt confuse anyone on raids.

I carry both, so I have a one-click option either way. If root jousting in theory a Swarmcaller has twice as high a chance to proc since it’s almost twice the delay. Even higher than that if it’s not paired with worn haste. Like DSM said though, same “procs per minute” if you keep auto attack on. Additionally, if jousting a double attack with a 29 damage weapon is usually more than a DW cycle.

[bcbrown]

It sure feels nice when Swarmcaller procs on the very first swing and you get to use the Woodsman the entire fight. On the other hand, one fight today I had the first proc on the final killing blow, and that's a lot less nice.

[Snaggles]

It’s really the hp savings averaged than anything else. With root, a bow, and a 2h you can whittle down anything that won’t summon when it’s too close for comfort.

It blows my mind how many raiding level 60’s don’t at minimum have tash sticks and a Swarmcaller. It’s like 1/8th or 1/16th the cost of a Truncheon of Doom and can save your group or even raid.

[Jimjam]

I don’t get it. A resisted tash is a resisted slow. Whats the tash for? Sticking roots?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t get it. A resisted tash is a resisted slow. Whats the tash for? Sticking roots?

Tash is unresistable. So Tash Stick is good for getting some guaranteed -MR on a target if they are more resistant than usual. You have the correct sentiment when it comes to resistable spells like Malosini. Since Malosini has the same resist chance as slow, might as well lead with slow and hope it lands instead of casting Malosini first.

I use Tash Stick quite a bit on my Shaman so I can get an unresistable -63 MR on resistant mobs when you include Malo. Makes it easier to land Slow, Root, Epic Dot, etc. If the mob is still resisting a lot after it is Slowed, a Malosini will make subsequent slows easier if the fight lasts long enough.

[Jimjam]

Oh, didn’t realise tash doesn’t ever resist. Thank you for letting me know!

[Salaryman]

Tash is unresistable. So Tash Stick is good for getting some guaranteed -MR on a target if they are more resistant than usual. You have the correct sentiment when it comes to resistable spells like Malosini. Since Malosini has the same resist chance as slow, might as well lead with slow and hope it lands instead of casting Malosini first.

I use Tash Stick quite a bit on my Shaman so I can get an unresistable -63 MR on resistant mobs when you include Malo. Makes it easier to land Slow, Root, Epic Dot, etc. If the mob is still resisting a lot after it is Slowed, a Malosini will make subsequent slows easier if the fight lasts long enough.

RED99

Is it worth it to carry 2 tash sticks? Im running out of space in my Very Large Coin Purse (how large is your coin purse?)

RED99

[DeathsSilkyMist]

RED99

Is it worth it to carry 2 tash sticks? Im running out of space in my Very Large Coin Purse (how large is your coin purse?)

RED99

On Blue or Green you can get 100 players with Tash Sticks to do whatever content you want. Can't do that on Red.

[Salaryman]

On Blue or Green you can get 100 players with Tash Sticks to do whatever content you want. Can't do that on Red.

RED99

[Snaggles]

RED99

Where the only requirement of a good ranger is collecting four Druid shields.

[Salaryman]

Where the only requirement of a good ranger is collecting four Druid shields.

RED99

First of All I have 3 SHields,

Shield of the Water Dragon
Shield of the RED Dragon
shield of the Green Dargon

Now I dont know what you do with your ranger that has 0 shields and zero PVP Kills but i doubt fun and I am the Top #1 Number 1 PVPER in all of EverQuesy History.

https://i.imgur.com/3SMQ6XK.png
https://i.imgur.com/SkhrCBl.png

RED99

[Jimjam]

I dont know what you do with your ranger that has 0 shields

I find mine is pretty good at grabbing low end twinkage like TT cycle loots, velks spider loots, KC name sniping loots, FM cycle loots and spying on pullers / rogues in PoHate while grabbing the trash mobs which drop the low end stuff the 3000 dkp try hards don't care about :).

[WarpathEQ]

RED99

First of All I have 3 SHields,

Shield of the Water Dragon
Shield of the RED Dragon
shield of the Green Dargon


Imagine not having a shield of the white dragon

[kjs86z2]

imagine playing red

now imagine incessantly spamming p99 forums about red

yikes

[Snaggles]

Imagine not having a shield of the white dragon

He’s one shield away from being able to morph into Voltron.

PS: LOL at that MR with Blue Flower.

[Duik]

Is rm in the stat box MR in this instance?

No wonder he finds playing on red by himself hard to resist...

[Salaryman]

RED99

Another Glorious Kill for Me Today:

https://i.imgur.com/EiF3BOf.png

RED99

[Goregasmic]

Imagine not having a shield of the white dragon

"WTB shield of the white dargon".

The man swallowed the bait up to the reel.

[Salaryman]

"WTB shield of the white dargon".

The man swallowed the bait up to the reel.

RED99

Its a good shield and soon I will have one, do you have a Shield of the White Dargon? I dont think so and you probably never will, but soon I will have one, Because I am the Number #1 Top PVPER in all of EverQuest History.

RED99

[bcbrown]

((Weapon Min Damage + Weapon Max Damage) / 2) * Mitigation Offset * Swings Per Second = Weapon DPS

Your formula is neither descriptive nor predictive. A descriptive formula would illustrate the actual mechanics of how combat works, but this is rather obviously not how combat works. A predictive formula would let you predict how a given weapon would perform against a given mob, but this formula requires you to have already parsed against a mob. If you've already done a parse, you don't need this formula.

Average damage per swing multiplied by swings per second is rather obviously damage per second. There's nothing interesting in this observation; it's just the definition of DPS. Furthermore it hides all the interesting mechanics; breaking it into a hit% and an average damage per hit would be an immediate improvement. Similarly, swings per second hides the double attack % and dual wield %.

This "mitigation offset" is also uninteresting. Like sure, you can parse damage against a giant and a turtle and find that the same weapon does 55% as much damage against the turtle compared to the giant. Ok? Yes, that's a number, but it's not an interesting number. You can't use it for anything. It doesn't do anything. If you know the DPS is 55%, of course the average damage per swing will be 55%. Now what?

Finally, the average damage per swing is not the same thing as (Weapon Min Damage + Weapon Max Damage) / 2). The only interesting thing here is that it comes out kinda close, but you don't have any explanation for why that's true. I do know why, and it is interesting. And if you did know why, you'd know why there's a better way to estimate average damage than (Weapon Min Damage + Weapon Max Damage) / 2).

[Duik]

Rah Roh.

Better stock up on scooby snacks.

[Snaggles]

Parsing against that turtle really means nothing. I wish there was math that would scale. I spent about an hour messing with Bloodmaw, that level 25 or whatever Kodiak in the Great Divide and the numbers were all over the place.

If you want to find out a weapons max/min hit, dual wield percentages of two different weapon skills of the same delay, even proc chances…sure. There just isn’t a DPS weighting principle I know of to take that information and figure out what it means if used against AoW or Tunare.

[Snaggles]

So here is an interesting nugget, not so much “proof” of 2h vs DW but they were close to sleepers tomb and I had 5 mins to kill.

60 ranger, 1375 attack, 41% haste, Earthcaller and Swiftwind
Green con (lvl 43-44) Kromrif Guardsman outside Kael in EW:
6,555 damage in 104 seconds = 63dps

60 ranger, 1326 attack, 41% haste, Swarmcaller
Blue con (lvl 45) Kromrif Guardsman outside Kael in EW:
7,192 damage in 99 seconds = 72 dps

The Epic’s might have had a bad run and the Swarmcaller a lucky one. I likely won’t do more testing unless people are very curious but 2h’s are certainly stronger than they used to be. Not bad for a 500p Kunark weapon.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your formula is neither descriptive nor predictive. A descriptive formula would illustrate the actual mechanics of how combat works, but this is rather obviously not how combat works. A predictive formula would let you predict how a given weapon would perform against a given mob, but this formula requires you to have already parsed against a mob. If you've already done a parse, you don't need this formula.

Average damage per swing multiplied by swings per second is rather obviously damage per second. There's nothing interesting in this observation; it's just the definition of DPS. Furthermore it hides all the interesting mechanics; breaking it into a hit% and an average damage per hit would be an immediate improvement. Similarly, swings per second hides the double attack % and dual wield %.

This "mitigation offset" is also uninteresting. Like sure, you can parse damage against a giant and a turtle and find that the same weapon does 55% as much damage against the turtle compared to the giant. Ok? Yes, that's a number, but it's not an interesting number. You can't use it for anything. It doesn't do anything. If you know the DPS is 55%, of course the average damage per swing will be 55%. Now what?

Finally, the average damage per swing is not the same thing as (Weapon Min Damage + Weapon Max Damage) / 2). The only interesting thing here is that it comes out kinda close, but you don't have any explanation for why that's true. I do know why, and it is interesting. And if you did know why, you'd know why there's a better way to estimate average damage than (Weapon Min Damage + Weapon Max Damage) / 2).

You didn't read my post correctly yet again. It is clear with this answer. Read it again please.

To backwards engineer a formula, you need to parse first. Then it can become predictive for other weapons and mobs. You can plug in the mitigation offset for mobs of similar difficulty without parsing.

Corudoth is the ceiling for how well you can DPS as a level 60. Harder mobs will DPS lower. This includes hit chance. I have a 91% chance to hit corudoth. You won't get better than that on harder targets.

You really need to stop skimming and/ or skipping to the bottom.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Parsing against that turtle really means nothing. I wish there was math that would scale. I spent about an hour messing with Bloodmaw, that level 25 or whatever Kodiak in the Great Divide and the numbers were all over the place.

If you want to find out a weapons max/min hit, dual wield percentages of two different weapon skills of the same delay, even proc chances…sure. There just isn’t a DPS weighting principle I know of to take that information and figure out what it means if used against AoW or Tunare.

Turtle is a viable a parse target, and there is a scalable math formula.

Why do people believe these kinds of things? You have no evidence to suggest turtle is an invalid parse target. I have plenty of parses that show otherwise.

The damage formula is a scaleable formula. Thats how it works. You can see the EQEMU code, which is a scaleable formula.

[Snaggles]

Note to my parse : I had VoG so 99% total haste. Sorry

[Snaggles]

Turtle is a viable a parse target, and there is a scalable math formula.

Why do people believe these kinds of things? You have no evidence to suggest turtle is an invalid parse target. I have plenty of parses that show otherwise.

The damage formula is a scaleable formula. Thats how it works. You can see the EQEMU code, which is a scaleable formula.

Respectfully DSM, I don’t think you can. The damage bonus is doing a lot of heavy lifting on the main hand and the offhand ratio is doing less on high AC targets.

I did like an hour of parsing on Bloodmaw, a lvl 30 npc in Great Divide with 50k hps. I would snare it by Velks and zone just when it turned to flee, then do another once it regenned. I may have already posted this, sorry if so.

Earthcaller/Swiftwind = 74,012 over 688 seconds = 107dps average
Vyemm whip/swiftwind = 71,059 over 597 seconds = 119 dps
Vyemm whip/claw of Lightning = 71,542 over 576 seconds = 124 dps
Meljeldin = 74,358 over 605 seconds = 122 dps

Based on this, going from Kunark epics to a solid NTOV main hand is a 10% in DPS. It’s roughly a 14% increase going to a Claw of Lightning despite the 50 attack loss…which seems steep to me.

The Meljeldin is a 45/38 2h is less a 13% improvement over the two epics.

I truly wish this was the case. I worked harder for the epics than I did for the Meljeldin and they look far nicer. If anyone was crazy enough to use them on Vindi I expect the dps would be under 40 (roughly half the 2h). I used to get mid 40’s with my Zek blade and Swiftwind. I really liked that setup but these days I’m not sure it would beat a woodsman staff at 60.

In the end, raw dps isn’t the only metric that makes an effective player or even the game more fun. I just think a ranger has a lot to gain with a single ToV weapon. We can’t just go grab a Peacebringer for 500p or MQ a rogue epic for 20k pp.

[Duik]

Snaggles. Did u have a full ds buff on? So a slowed mob would lower dps (in theory) so 2hs is even better.

Or did u not include ds in dps?

Or did i miss the point here. DS is counted dps isnt it?

[Snaggles]

Snaggles. Did u have a full ds buff on? So a slowed mob would lower dps (in theory) so 2hs is even better.

Or did u not include ds in dps?

Or did i miss the point here. DS is counted dps isnt it?

In that test I had Ring9+Thorncoat, so 14 total. I got an early Earthcaller proc and a late Swarmcaller one (50% or do)

I’m going to do more controlled tests. Maybe helping a Geos group or something.

In the Bloodmaw test I had no DS, I tried to isolate all variables.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Respectfully DSM, I don’t think you can. The damage bonus is doing a lot of heavy lifting on the main hand and the offhand ratio is doing less on high AC targets.

I did like an hour of parsing on Bloodmaw, a lvl 30 npc in Great Divide with 50k hps. I would snare it by Velks and zone just when it turned to flee, then do another once it regenned. I may have already posted this, sorry if so.

Earthcaller/Swiftwind = 74,012 over 688 seconds = 107dps average
Vyemm whip/swiftwind = 71,059 over 597 seconds = 119 dps
Vyemm whip/claw of Lightning = 71,542 over 576 seconds = 124 dps
Meljeldin = 74,358 over 605 seconds = 122 dps

Based on this, going from Kunark epics to a solid NTOV main hand is a 10% in DPS. It’s roughly a 14% increase going to a Claw of Lightning despite the 50 attack loss…which seems steep to me.

The Meljeldin is a 45/38 2h is less a 13% improvement over the two epics.

I truly wish this was the case. I worked harder for the epics than I did for the Meljeldin and they look far nicer. If anyone was crazy enough to use them on Vindi I expect the dps would be under 40 (roughly half the 2h). I used to get mid 40’s with my Zek blade and Swiftwind. I really liked that setup but these days I’m not sure it would beat a woodsman staff at 60.

In the end, raw dps isn’t the only metric that makes an effective player or even the game more fun. I just think a ranger has a lot to gain with a single ToV weapon. We can’t just go grab a Peacebringer for 500p or MQ a rogue epic for 20k pp.

I am not 100% sure what you disagreeing with me about with this post. Apologies.

Corudoth is a good parse target because Corudoth acts as a DPS ceiling to show the best possible DPS a weapon could output from a level 60. I have a 90% chance to hit Corudoth roughly speaking, and only about 15% of my Damage Rolls are below the average of Weapon Damage * 2 + Damage Bonus. The reason why a DPS ceiling is useful is because you can predict the DPS on harder enemies, because your DPS can only go down.

A mob like AoW is probably the floor for DPS. You will have the worst possible DPS as a level 60 when fighting him. This means all other mobs are between this floor and the ceiling. You can adjust the percentage of DPS being reduced between the floor and the ceiling to see when one weapon will out-perform another.

This also shows how the damage formula is scaleable. This post shows that: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3730155&postcount=32

[wagorf]

does it mean a better ratio offhand 1h (from NToV) is always better than using swifthand


Respectfully DSM, I don’t think you can. The damage bonus is doing a lot of heavy lifting on the main hand and the offhand ratio is doing less on high AC targets.

I did like an hour of parsing on Bloodmaw, a lvl 30 npc in Great Divide with 50k hps. I would snare it by Velks and zone just when it turned to flee, then do another once it regenned. I may have already posted this, sorry if so.

Earthcaller/Swiftwind = 74,012 over 688 seconds = 107dps average
Vyemm whip/swiftwind = 71,059 over 597 seconds = 119 dps
Vyemm whip/claw of Lightning = 71,542 over 576 seconds = 124 dps
Meljeldin = 74,358 over 605 seconds = 122 dps

Based on this, going from Kunark epics to a solid NTOV main hand is a 10% in DPS. It’s roughly a 14% increase going to a Claw of Lightning despite the 50 attack loss…which seems steep to me.

The Meljeldin is a 45/38 2h is less a 13% improvement over the two epics.

I truly wish this was the case. I worked harder for the epics than I did for the Meljeldin and they look far nicer. If anyone was crazy enough to use them on Vindi I expect the dps would be under 40 (roughly half the 2h). I used to get mid 40’s with my Zek blade and Swiftwind. I really liked that setup but these days I’m not sure it would beat a woodsman staff at 60.

In the end, raw dps isn’t the only metric that makes an effective player or even the game more fun. I just think a ranger has a lot to gain with a single ToV weapon. We can’t just go grab a Peacebringer for 500p or MQ a rogue epic for 20k pp.

[Pint]

Someone should create a chat bot that just replies to dsm all day so we can all watch to see who gives up first hehe

[kjs86z2]

vyemm whip is just so damn good when theres aoe dmg going around

people forget this

woe is me, im remembering back when raiding was actually competitive, nvm, do it for the parse

[Snaggles]

does it mean a better ratio offhand 1h (from NToV) is always better than using swifthand

I don’t think so. That attack is really nice and the 13/21 ratio is serviceable. It’s just less of a goal to optimize. I don’t have enough testing to know of CoL is better for me with my level of attack power, off or on Avatar. It looks cool though and I got it cheap. I mostly just use it over the Swift for fashion (and swap when back when I’m using the BFG for +attack).

vyemm whip is just so damn good when theres aoe dmg going around

people forget this

woe is me, im remembering back when raiding was actually competitive, nvm, do it for the parse

It’s certainly not bad at alll. The MR boost is huge. In in HoT left with a Druid healer I’ll use it because I feel bad not. The dps drop over the 2h is there, but get 6 rune procs on a red wurm and it feels less bad when they heal ya :)

[Snaggles]

I am not 100% sure what you disagreeing with me about with this post. Apologies.

Corudoth is a good parse target because Corudoth acts as a DPS ceiling to show the best possible DPS a weapon could output from a level 60. I have a 90% chance to hit Corudoth roughly speaking, and only about 15% of my Damage Rolls are below the average of Weapon Damage * 2 + Damage Bonus. The reason why a DPS ceiling is useful is because you can predict the DPS on harder enemies, because your DPS can only go down.

A mob like AoW is probably the floor for DPS. You will have the worst possible DPS as a level 60 when fighting him. This means all other mobs are between this floor and the ceiling. You can adjust the percentage of DPS being reduced between the floor and the ceiling to see when one weapon will out-perform another.

This also shows how the damage formula is scaleable. This post shows that: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3730155&postcount=32

When 2h weapons are close to the same ratio, while damage bonus isn’t “perfect” it scales per the delay making them far closer than prior to this update. That means on a level 1 turtle or a level 30 cave bear, it’s not a horrible way to determine which 2h is best.

That said…you could solve this with a calculator. The ratio itself should be indicative of performance (at least on average). There are only a handful of 2h weapons and nobody is disputing which is ideal over the other. If close in ratio, they fall into a group where frankly aside from what you looted that day (shovel vs Facesmasher, etc) or stats, people just don’t care which might be technically superior. We all know those are an upgrade over Kunark staves and a downgrade from Abashi or Bo Staff. If there are some people don’t know what is best but are looting them…yikes. They can either dig around in 25 years or forum posts or parse the data. Or just be a warmbody who doesn’t care.

The problem most people are trying to solve is the comparison between 2h and dual wield. The Turtle gives far too much credit to ratio and not enough to damage bonus. When your blam stick is cracking triple digits all the time it’s far closer to a Baton of Flame than it would be under circumstances where you aren’t always blessed with god-like strikes. Furthermore, 2h’s net a far higher damage bonus per second gain and better ratios than DW weapons. Monks get triple attack on the MH and rangers don’t; for monks that can make shoddier ratio 2hs even better than one might expect. Even outside an outlier parse compared to another.

My test on Bloodmaw demonstrates this point. A 14/24 should not be near a 13/19 on a test against a target who isn’t a pile of jelly. It shouldn’t be 13% behind the fifth best ratio in this current state of the game. They aren’t in the same galaxy…trust me.

[kjs86z2]

It’s certainly not bad at alll. The MR boost is huge. In in HoT left with a Druid healer I’ll use it because I feel bad not. The dps drop over the 2h is there, but get 6 rune procs on a red wurm and it feels less bad when they heal ya :)

if you have to move out because you're gonna die, you're doing 0 dps

[Snaggles]

if you have to move out because you're gonna die, you're doing 0 dps

Totally. My toon is very Sv heavy so lacking about 500hps over where I might otherwise be. A few whip procs helps avoid getting into blood aggro so quickly.

I was thinking that and a Tunare braid might be a good setup if you have haste elsewhere. The dot rolling is 8dps and 15/21 isn’t a horrible ratio. They are super cheap pickups and double-whip might be the ultimate ranger fashion.

[kjs86z2]

Totally. My toon is very Sv heavy so lacking about 500hps over where I might otherwise be. A few whip procs helps avoid getting into blood aggro so quickly.

I was thinking that and a Tunare braid might be a good setup if you have haste elsewhere. The dot rolling is 8dps and 15/21 isn’t a horrible ratio. They are super cheap pickups and double-whip might be the ultimate ranger fashion.

my female ogre warrior rocked skull titties, dildo helm, vyemn whip, and dagarns tail for that bdsm fashion

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That said…you could solve this with a calculator.


You are correct, a calculator would be the best for determining which weapons are best given the scenario. That is what I am getting at with this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3730155&postcount=32


My test on Bloodmaw demonstrates this point. A 14/24 should not be near a 13/19 on a test against a target who isn’t a pile of jelly. It shouldn’t be 13% behind the fifth best ratio in this current state of the game. They aren’t in the same galaxy…trust me.

I am not saying parsing Corudoth is equivalent to parsing AoW. The point of a Corudoth parse is to show the DPS ceiling of a weapon for a level 60. This means the best possible DPS a weapon can do. That is what you mean when you say:


The Turtle gives far too much credit to ratio and not enough to damage bonus.


If Corudoth is the DPS ceiling of a weapon for a level 60, all encounters harder than Corudoth will do less DPS. Once you know the DPS ceiling of the weapon, you can scale your DPS down to see when one weapon is better than the other. From my current parsing XP mobs seem to take about 55-60% DPS of a Corudoth parse. A raid target should be taking less damage than that.

Using a calculator like this is useful because you can see what weapons are better depending on the situation. A player may want to use 1h weapons while fighting XP mobs if they are similar or better DPS to their 2H weapon for whatever reason. Quite a few people have said Epic Fist + SoS is worse than IFS, but at level 52 Epic Fist + SoS is better than IFS if you don't fistweave. Not everybody likes fistweaving.

We don't need to presume all parsing questions are about which weapons are best against AoW. OP is level 51, and thus is not asking about what weapons are best for AoW.

[Keebz]

The point of a Corudoth parse is to show the DPS ceiling of a weapon for a level 60. This means the best possible DPS a weapon can do.

... against Corudoth and maybe other level 5s with similar AC.



If Corudoth is the DPS ceiling of a weapon for a level 60, all encounters harder than Corudoth will do less DPS. Once you know the DPS ceiling of the weapon, you can scale your DPS down to see when one weapon is better than the other.

No you can't, because level differential, AC and defense skills are such a large part of the damage equation. A weapon can easily parse better than another against Corudoth but worse against a real target, exp. mob, raid mob, or otherwise.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No you can't, because level differential, AC and defense skills are such a large part of the damage equation. A weapon can easily parse better than another against Corudoth but worse against a real target, exp. mob, raid mob, or otherwise.

Yes you can. That is how a scaling damage formula works. Everquest and P99 use a scaling damage formula. DPS will scale down from the easiest mob (Corudoth) based on level difference, AC, and defense skills to the hardest mob (AoW). Most mobs are somewhere inbetween, and you can figure out roughly where most mobs land with some parsing.

You can test this yourself.

[Snaggles]

Yes you can. That is how a scaling damage formula works. Everquest and P99 use a scaling damage formula. DPS will scale down from the easiest mob (Corudoth) based on level difference, AC, and defense skills to the hardest mob (AoW). Most mobs are somewhere inbetween, and you can figure out roughly where most mobs land with some parsing.

You can test this yourself.

The alternative is just to raid, parse, keep track of results, and opine based on that data which are typically better combinations.

What you are providing is basically an engine dyno before it’s bolted into a chassis. It’s the least functional way to measure real power as there are no drain factors (AC, defensive skills, level range). Those drain factors result in how fast the car ends up being (actual dps).

TBH, I don’t know why we are talking about monks for pages and pages. I don’t even do this when I beat them on a parse…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The alternative is just to raid, parse, keep track of results, and opine based on that data which are typically better combinations.

What you are providing is basically an engine dyno before it’s bolted into a chassis. It’s the least functional way to measure real power as there are no drain factors (AC, defensive skills, level range). Those drain factors result in how fast the car ends up being (actual dps).

TBH, I don’t know why we are talking about monks for pages and pages. I don’t even do this when I beat them on a parse…

We are talking about weapon DPS, which is what OP asked about. OP wanted to know which weapons are better for their scenario. The damage formula works the same for all melee classes, different classes just have different skill caps and weapon options. You can use data from other melee classes as long as you adjust for skill values accordingly. I haven't been "talking about Monks for pages and pages" at all. I am talking about weapon DPS and the damage formula.

Most people don't have every weapon in the game to parse on every mob in the game. That's the point of a calculator. You can figure out what weapons are better without needing to have them. This helps you figure out if you want a weapon or not.

[kjs86z2]

uh hello, human resources?!?!?! theres nerds here getting sweaty over nothing

vulak was killed in kunark gear boys

[DeathsSilkyMist]

uh hello, human resources?!?!?! theres nerds here getting sweaty over nothing

vulak was killed in kunark gear boys

And yet people still kill Vulak to get Vulak loot years later. Clearly people enjoy the loot part of the game, even if it isn't necessary to clear content. Also sometimes being over geared for an encounter allows you to do it with a lower player count than normal, or solo.

[bcbrown]

We don't need to presume all parsing questions are about which weapons are best against AoW. OP is level 51, and thus is not asking about what weapons are best for AoW.

DPS performance against raid targets is in-scope for this discussion.

We are talking about weapon DPS, which is what OP asked about. OP wanted to know which weapons are better for their scenario. The damage formula works the same for all melee classes, different classes just have different skill caps and weapon options. You can use data from other melee classes as long as you adjust for skill values accordingly. I haven't been "talking about Monks for pages and pages" at all. I am talking about weapon DPS and the damage formula.

You've been talking a lot about your damage formula but you haven't done anything to answer the original question: which of those five weapons should I be using? The question has been answered to my satisfaction (keep using the Woodsman's Staff), but if you want to talk about your formula, you should explain how it answers my question.

[Snaggles]

Unless you want to know how a 2h will compare towards two 1h’s on a mob that isn’t trivial to hit. Then the calculator falls apart.

I’m going to work with bcbrown to figure out some Swarmcaller vs Epics math. Frankly that for me is the curious one because part of what we can offer is slowing stuff. I don’t still have a Woodsman Staff or Zek blade, otherwise I’d parse that against other setups.

Stay tuned (it might take a while, my game schedule sucks).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DPS performance against raid targets is in-scope for this discussion.


Good to know. That wasn't noted in your original message.

Typically a level 51 Ranger is going to be using weapons to level. Raids typically don't want level 51 Rangers DPSing, and will ask you to switch to another character instead. It isn't a leap to assume you are mostly leveling at this stage.


You've been talking a lot about your damage formula but you haven't done anything to answer the original question: which of those five weapons should I be using? The question has been answered to my satisfaction (keep using the Woodsman's Staff), but if you want to talk about your formula, you should explain how it answers my question.

You should actually read my posts and you'd have that answer. You can use a damage calculator and a formula to figure out which weapons have better DPS. DPS is a factor in determining which weapon to use.

Please read next time.

[Snaggles]

uh hello, human resources?!?!?! theres nerds here getting sweaty over nothing

vulak was killed in kunark gear boys

This is true haha. This is stuff we can figure out once we come to the crossroads. I’ll help a bit if I can…for sake of science /nerdglasses

[Salaryman]

And yet people still kill Vulak to get Vulak loot years later. Clearly people enjoy the loot part of the game, even if it isn't necessary to clear content. Also sometimes being over geared for an encounter allows you to do it with a lower player count than normal, or solo.

RED99

This right here is the crux of my argument against PVE only servers.

There is no reason to gear up after you are capable of killing the boss, other then to kill the boss quicker so you can kill the next boss before the competing guilds do.

But if your going to be competing why not just fight each other anyways?

RED99

[Snaggles]

RED99

This right here is the crux of my argument against PVE only servers.

There is no reason to gear up after you are capable of killing the boss, other then to kill the boss quicker so you can kill the next boss before the competing guilds do.

But if your going to be competing why not just fight each other anyways?

RED99

Killing AoW in this state of the game using ranger bumps is far more interesting and skillful than bow hunting a sad rogue on a PVP server. You think people are afraid to try Red, they literally just don’t care it exists.

[Snaggles]

Good to know. That wasn't noted in your original message.

Typically a level 51 Ranger is going to be using weapons to level. Raids typically don't want level 51 Rangers DPSing, and will ask you to switch to another character instead. It isn't a leap to assume you are mostly leveling at this stage.



Asking if a Woodsman is still viable over X,Y & Z is fair. I don’t recall bcbrown saying he plans to raid at 51. Let’s not enter that into the discussion.

I’ve gone further to say it’s likely even better at 60 than people give it credit for. It was pretty solid when I was using one at 45-58 back in 2017 and with patches has only become better in the high 50’s. These conversations can happen concurrently.

The way I see it, any serious player will eventually hit 60. The ranger isn’t an easy path but it’s a fun one. If you have a viable weapon that will only become better relative to its competitors, is that better than one which will stagnate? What if those more expensive ones are currently seen as “better” when they really aren’t? Thats my curiosity in this whole thing.

The more time you are buying and selling upgrades in EC, the less time is spent plunking xp mobs. I’d rather do anything than sit around in EC or even log in a mile to try and catch a seller. It’s only slightly more fun than doing a CR.

[Salaryman]

Killing AoW in this state of the game using ranger bumps is far more interesting and skillful than bow hunting a sad rogue on a PVP server. You think people are afraid to try Red, they literally just don’t care it exists.

RED99

I dont think about you pve nerds at all, I dont want you to play RED99 im glad you have your lawyerquest containment pve servers

I post for PVPers like me (Im the Number 1 #1 TOP PVPER in all of EverQuest History (His Story, My Story, which is written by the Victors (me) and Im Number #1) In all of EverQuest History) So that if a real man sees these posts they know RED99 is Legit.

So keep playing your hello kitty island adventure mmo.

RED99

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Asking if a Woodsman is still viable over X,Y & Z is fair. I don’t recall bcbrown saying he plans to raid at 51. Let’s not enter that into the discussion.

I’ve gone further to say it’s likely even better at 60 than people give it credit for. It was pretty solid when I was using one at 45-58 back in 2017 and with patches has only become better in the high 50’s. These conversations can happen concurrently.

The way I see it, any serious player will eventually hit 60. The ranger isn’t an easy path but it’s a fun one. If you have a viable weapon that will only become better relative to its competitors, is that better than one which will stagnate? What if those more expensive ones are currently seen as “better” when they really aren’t? Thats my curiosity in this whole thing.

The more time you are buying and selling upgrades in EC, the less time is spent plunking xp mobs. I’d rather do anything than sit around in EC or even log in a mile to try and catch a seller. It’s only slightly more fun than doing a CR.

I prefer to give people the best factual information possible without bias, and let them figure out what to do with it. Everybody plays the game differently.

I don't want to assume a person wouldn't like using Wurmslayer + Epic over Woodsman staff for fun. That person may decide to avoid having said fun if they think the DPS difference is significant at 51, which it almost certainly isn't given how the game works. Many weapons are cheap enough these days, so it isn't a huge lift to buy a Wurmslayer for 1.5k or w/e and try it out for a while.

This is why I don't like the general rule of thumb "2h is better". It hides a lot of nuance of the game that people may end up missing if they just follow the advise without knowing why it exists. I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, 2h weapons post-buff got a significant boost. I just prefer to give out the facts rather than a general rule of thumb.

[spoil]

Just the facts, ma'am.

[Duik]

Dont Spoil his fun factual facts.

[bcbrown]

Snaggles kindly offered to send me a couple parses with Swarmcaller and the two epics against a froglok forager. Here's the results of a quick analysis.

First, I've been doing some parses on my own ranger, and found some interesting patterns. Here's a damage histogram from a Fellspine's Tail in mainhand vs Bloodmaw, 574 hits:

https://i.imgur.com/Nnw8vXV.png

The most obvious observation from this graph is the huge spike at 22 damage, which exactly equals 2*damage + bonus, or 2*7+8. There's a min value of 9 (or 1+8), and a max value of 34. The other thing I noticed was that there's more hits above this modal value (46%) than below (15%), with 39% at the modal value. I'm not going to go into the rest of my analysis here, as that's far too much for a single post, but I wanted to use this to illustrate my expectations when I started to look into Snaggles' parse.

I expect to see a similar graph for the Swarmcaller, with a modal value of 2*29 + 34 or 92. For Earthcaller + Swiftwind, since both weapons are slashing, I won't be able to pull them into two separate graphs, so instead of a single modal value I expect two, at 2*14 + 11 = 39 for EC and 2*13 = 26 for SW.

If you normalize those modal values by delay you get:
Swarmcaller: 92/41 = 2.24
Earthcaller: 39/24 = 1.625
Swiftwind: 26/21 = 1.24
Earthcaller + .75 * Swiftwind = 2.55

So the epics should be roughly 2.55/2.24 = 13% more DPS than the Swarmcaller.

On to the data

Swarmcaller: Three fights, with durations of 1:44, 1:42, 1:44 (from timestamp of first swing to last swing). Total 168 hits, 0 misses, 168 swings. Total damage is 17720, average hit is 105, DPS is 57.16.

https://i.imgur.com/XtpLHix.png

Earthcaller + Swarmcaller: Two fights, with durations of 1:18 and 1:24. Total 255 hits, 0 misses, 255 swings. Total damage is 11494, average hit is 45, DPS is 70.95.

https://i.imgur.com/Rfql7Ra.png

Discussion

Both graphs are more or less as expected, but there's some interesting wrinkles. The first is the secondary peak at the max hit value; I haven't seen that on any of my parses. The Epic DPS is higher than Swarmcaller as expected, but it's 24% higher rather than the 13% higher I expected.

I'm very surprised that there seems to be zero misses in the logs. I had a 90% hit rate (at level 51) against a level 5-8ish mob, but Snaggles had a 100% hit rate (at level 60) against a level 45 mob. His strength is something like 230 while mine was at 138.

Given the delays and a 75% dual wield success rate, I'd expect the Earthcaller to be about 54% of the total epic swings and the Swiftwind to be about 46% (1/24 vs 1/21 * .75), but the modal peaks imply the Swiftwind has about twice has many hits as the Earthcaller (7% at 26 damage vs 3.9% at 39 damage).

Finally, I'll note that there were 168 and 255 hits for Swarmcaller and Epics, while my Fellspine parse had 574 hits. Given the results I've found so far I think you need about 500 hits to avoid the data being excessively noisy. So I'm not too surprised that not all the projections line up exactly. The secondary peak at exactly the max value is very interesting, though.

In the ranger AC thread I laid out a theory for defense calculations: you'll have peaks at min and max hits and how much AC you have determines the relative proportion of min and max hits. We already knew there was some player-specific calculation that uses the "damage table" values to smear out the damage values, leading to values above what would be the max value for an NPC. The parses I ran suggested that's likely accurate, where the underlying distribution is past the squelch point such that all the min/max values are at the max value, and the "smearing" can lead to up to 30% of all hits being past the modal value, up to twice as high. Snaggles' parses suggest a similar conclusion, except with enough "something" (strength, +attack, skill levels, the "extra offensive bonus" rangers start getting at 55) the "smearing" gets capped at a ceiling leading to a secondary peak at the observed max damage.

[Snaggles]

Thanks bcbrown!

Honestly the 100% hit factor could have been my missed turned off. I figured that would only affect what is displayed in-game. Sorry if that threw a curveball.

I’ll do more parsing on those Kromrif Guardsmen as they are much closer to where my character is parked. Maybe a dozen or so with epics, and then the other weapon.

I will say this, I expected the Swamcaller to be a total dog. It was very close to the Epics outside the one frog. It slightly bested the epics on the one Guardsman. Roughly a SBOZ is 11% better ratio than the Earthcaller. A Woodsman is roughly 19% better ratio than a Swarmcaller. I don’t think this will stop people from hunting for SEOC’s anytime soon.

I don’t know if that’s sufficient enough to speculate but at least on level 45 npcs with a level 60 player, I expect the Woodsman would be competitive if not maybe a bit better on average. On level 60+ raid targets with higher mitigation, I would expect it to run further ahead. The woodsman applying a 31dmg bonus every 3.5 seconds (8.857/sec) unhasted vs the SBOZ an 11 every 1.8 seconds (6.111/sec) unhasted. That doesn’t even consider the price difference between these two setups.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm working on a DPS calculator based on the EQEMU code. Got it mostly working, and so far the results seem pretty close to the P99 results I am getting. Will share it soon. I can share why there is a spike on the WeaponDamage * 2 + Damage Bonus value.

Basically there are two offsets that are applied to the Weapon Damage:

1. First there is a D20 that is rolled, skewed against the attacker's Offense vs. the defenders Defense. Generally speaking the D20 is skewed towards rolling 20 (which is divided by 10 to get 2). As as simple data example, out of 350 D20 Rolls, 100ish of them are rolled as 20 against a level 50 mob as a level 52 Monk. This is the first reason why you see a lot of values at WeaponDamage * 2 + Damage Bonus. You can also read this as WeaponDamage * (D20 Roll / 10) + Damage Bonus.

2. There is a second multiplier that multiplies the result of WeaponDamage * (D20 Roll / 10) before the Damage Bonus is applied. This multiplier has a fixed chance based on level to simply not happen. At level 60 there is a 23% chance of simply not using the second multiplier. If you do use the second multiplier, you can boost the result of WeaponDamage * (D20 Roll / 10) by up to 285% higher at level 60 before adding the Damage Bonus. This second multiplier is increased with your Weapon Skill, Strength, and ATK.

So not only do you have a lot of D20 Rolls that are skewed towards 20, but you also have a percent chance to not use the second multiplier. The result is having a higher number of your damage values at WeaponDamage * 2 + Damage Bonus. As the mob gets harder, the damage values become more diffuse. The easier the mob, the more damage values end up at WeaponDamage * 2 + Damage Bonus.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I forgot to mention the second multiplier is also a roll. So if your max damage percentage multiplier is 285, you are rolling a d285 and multiplying the Weapon Damage * (d20 / 10) by the result. Thats why you don't have a ton of max hit rolls, and why they are more distrubuted.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is a link to the thread related to the DPS calculator:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3731967#post3731967

Let me know what you think.

[bcbrown]

I'm pretty happy with how I've geared out my ranger so far, but there's a couple slots where I'm wondering which item to use. He's mostly EC-geared, and I'm not going to be prioritizing him for raid drops in the foreseeable future. I play him mostly solo with the occasional duo or trio, and sometimes bring him to WW for 6-neck fights. The Magelo is here (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Ranelagh). I don't think any of these gear choices are going to be meaningful but you know, sometimes it's fun to tinker. One thing I'd like is more dex for faster procs on Swarmcaller.

What should I do for boots? I've got Tribal War Boots and Barbed Dragonscale Boots, and I've been going Dragonscale when fighting non-casters, Tribal when I'd like the resists. I could also pick up a pair of Crystal Chitin.

For rings right now I've got a 5/55 and a Knotted Turtlebone Ring. I picked up the turtle ring because I was hoping I'd find some interesting hunting in Kedge, but that didn't go well and I'm considering selling it. I'm conflicted on whether it's better to go hp/ac or something like Fire Emerald Velium Ring for str/dex. I've also been farming goblin skins for a Di'Zok Signet of Service. I also plan to eventually craft a pair of Velium Diamond Wedding Ring for when I want resists.

Is there anything better for the face slot? I was planning to pick up a Golden Diamond Mask for when I want resist gear, but I've been having trouble finding anything obtainable that would be better than Grotesque Alloy Mask. Not interested in trying to do the Eyepatch of Plunder quest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm pretty happy with how I've geared out my ranger so far, but there's a couple slots where I'm wondering which item to use. He's mostly EC-geared, and I'm not going to be prioritizing him for raid drops in the foreseeable future. I play him mostly solo with the occasional duo or trio, and sometimes bring him to WW for 6-neck fights. The Magelo is here (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Ranelagh). I don't think any of these gear choices are going to be meaningful but you know, sometimes it's fun to tinker. One thing I'd like is more dex for faster procs on Swarmcaller.

What should I do for boots? I've got Tribal War Boots and Barbed Dragonscale Boots, and I've been going Dragonscale when fighting non-casters, Tribal when I'd like the resists. I could also pick up a pair of Crystal Chitin.

For rings right now I've got a 5/55 and a Knotted Turtlebone Ring. I picked up the turtle ring because I was hoping I'd find some interesting hunting in Kedge, but that didn't go well and I'm considering selling it. I'm conflicted on whether it's better to go hp/ac or something like Fire Emerald Velium Ring for str/dex. I've also been farming goblin skins for a Di'Zok Signet of Service. I also plan to eventually craft a pair of Velium Diamond Wedding Ring for when I want resists.

Is there anything better for the face slot? I was planning to pick up a Golden Diamond Mask for when I want resist gear, but I've been having trouble finding anything obtainable that would be better than Grotesque Alloy Mask. Not interested in trying to do the Eyepatch of Plunder quest.

Boots-wise you are already well off for non-raid gear. If you really want DEX, perhaps https://wiki.project1999.com/Tigeraptor_Boots at the cost of HP.

Face-wise https://wiki.project1999.com/Eyepatch_of_the_Shadows would be an HP upgrade at the cost of 1 dex, 1 mr, and 2 ac.

Ring-wise https://wiki.project1999.com/Overseer%60s_Signet is a nice DEX piece with MR on it, at the cost of HP. I use https://wiki.project1999.com/Diamond_Wedding_Band on my shaman as a decently balanced stat + resist piece.

Just some quick suggestions based on what you are looking for.

You could also get https://wiki.project1999.com/Cloak_of_Shadows if you want a bit more DEX, but obviously that will be a stat drop in other places.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Gauntlets_of_Fiery_Might would be a good DEX boost at the cost of 3 str.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Rain_Caller would give some DEX too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Silken_Cat-fur_Girdle would be a good swap piece since haste wont affect proc rate snyway.

[Goregasmic]

I'm by no mean a ranger gear expert but I shopped for EC gear a lot.

First question is: on the field, do you feel fine or coming short in some aspect?

I went crystal chitin for boots due to ac/str/dex. Barbed aren't a bad choice though.

For dex you could switch your hero bracer for another silver chitin one. Better all around except for -3str. You could always go cloak of shadows or overseer's signet but I don't feel the trade off is worth it.

For face you got a couple choices. It is basically a toss up between tribal war mask or gangrenous beetle mask imo. If you want mana/hp with decent AC you could go crystal spider eyes. If you want raw str or raw dex the ruby/star ruby veils are there for that.

For rings 6/65 ones are hard to beat. After that it depends if you want to trade hp for offensive stats or mana. If you swap you can make up the lost hp by getting a pearly sarnak bauble. I don't feel your current AC is high enough for a hammered golden loop.

If not bowing much you could get a bow with stats too like the sarnak war bow or a rain caller.

You didn't mention budget but tolan legs are nice if you got the money but if you had unlimited funds you'd probably be rocking a fungi and better 1handers. Is swiftwind in the cards? You could toy with haste options but the belt is solid and that tigerraptor cloak is fine.

[Zuranthium]

But they already have a good swap piece, with that Frostbringer to swap between the 2-hander swings. :cool:

[Keebz]

Some gear upgrades for bc with dex that are pretty attainable.

Silver Chitin Wristband + 1
Cloak of the Maelstrom
6 neck
Gladiator's Chain Sleeves
Eyepatch of the Shadows / Gangrenous Beetle Mask
Dragonleg Breeches

https://wiki.project1999.com/Silken_Cat-fur_Girdle would be a good swap piece since haste wont affect proc rate snyway.

Haste will actually lower proc per swing. So if you're jousting until the proc, take off your haste.