Moss covered Twig

[everquest2025]

Does anyone know if the Moss covered twig holds agro better than wave crasher or frosty?

[zelld52]

No. It’s got 3 damage. The other two weapons have debuff procs.

[WarpathEQ]

Not even close

[everquest2025]

Thank you

[Andreaa23]

I was wondering about this too, luckily I found this article

[Goregasmic]

I'm not an expert so correct me if I'm wrong but:

If you do the (weapdmg x2 +db)/dly formula twig comes slightly ahead. So in the end it is down to how many procs you think you're going to get. Longer fights proc might win but on trash it isn't a given.

Hate is weapdmg + DB on every swing. And then procs.

9/19 on wavecrasher is terrible so unless you're getting it for the slow, for the same price you could get an exquisite velium 1hander that would rip a lot more in white damage at 12/20 and you'd most likely be ahead in hate generation AND damage.

And for 3k you could get a WESS that also has crap damage but is known to be up there for hate procs if hate is your main concern. That would leave 13k in your pockets.

Depending on your class there are some 2handers that also have solid aggro and good ratios.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not an expert so correct me if I'm wrong but:

If you do the (weapdmg x2 +db)/dly formula twig comes slightly ahead. So in the end it is down to how many procs you think you're going to get. Longer fights proc might win but on trash it isn't a given.

Hate is weapdmg + DB on every swing. And then procs.

9/19 on wavecrasher is terrible so unless you're getting it for the slow, for the same price you could get an exquisite velium 1hander that would rip a lot more in white damage at 12/20 and you'd most likely be ahead in hate generation AND damage.

And for 3k you could get a WESS that also has crap damage but is known to be up there for hate procs if hate is your main concern. That would leave 13k in your pockets.

Depending on your class there are some 2handers that also have solid aggro and good ratios.

At 100% haste Mosscovered twig will do 28 hate per second (11 Damage Bonus + 3 weapon Damage) with a swing every 0.5 seconds.

At 100% haste Wavecrasher will do like 21 hate per second (11 Damage Bonus + 9 Weapon Damage) with a swing every 0.95 seconds.

So you are looking at 1680 hate per minute (twig) vs. 1260 hate per minute (wavecrasher) when looking at swing hate.

If you have 255 DEX, you'll get an additional 840 hate per minute on average with Wavecrasher, assuming slow still gives 400 hate per proc from the slow component.

Wavecrasher will generally win out hate-wise at 255 DEX unless you get really unlucky on procs.

I do agree that Wavecrasher probably isn't worth the price, unless you have a lot of money to spare. Spend that money on Truncheon of Doom or Swarmcaller (depending on class) instead for a good slow proc.

Frostbringer generates a bit more hate than Wavecrasher, assuming it still generates 400 hate per proc from the ac reduction component. It generates 1255 hate per minute at 100% haste via swings plus 920 hate per minute at 255 DEX.

So you are correct that there isn't much purpose in spending 15k on wavecrasher when you can spend 1.5k on frostbringer.

[Goregasmic]

At 100% haste Mosscovered twig will do 28 hate per second (11 Damage Bonus + 3 weapon Damage) with a swing every 0.5 seconds.

At 100% haste Wavecrasher will do like 21 hate per second (11 Damage Bonus + 9 Weapon Damage) with a swing every 0.95 seconds.

So you are looking at 1680 hate per minute (twig) vs. 1260 hate per minute (wavecrasher) when looking at swing hate.

If you have 255 DEX, you'll get an additional 840 hate per minute on average with Wavecrasher, assuming slow still gives 400 hate per proc from the slow component.

Wavecrasher will generally win out hate-wise at 255 DEX unless you get really unlucky on procs.

I do agree that Wavecrasher probably isn't worth the price, unless you have a lot of money to spare. Spend that money on Truncheon of Doom or Swarmcaller (depending on class) instead for a good slow proc.

Frostbringer generates a bit more hate than Wavecrasher, assuming it still generates 400 hate per proc from the ac reduction component. It generates 1255 hate per minute at 100% haste via swings plus 920 hate per minute at 255 DEX.

So you are correct that there isn't much purpose in spending 15k on wavecrasher when you can spend 1.5k on frostbringer.

Thanks for doing the math!

If OP mentions midrange weapons I'd guess he's nowhere close to 255 dex and doesn't get raid buffed but I could be wrong.

Hate from procs cap at 400 and its mostly procs with a lot of poison counters IIRC. Frostbringer and wavecrasher have solid hate procs but I'm not sure they go to 400. I know frostbringer is considered up there for hate generation but I've hardly ever seen wavecrasher mentionned, maybe because it is lesser known, maybe because it is so expensive for what it is.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for doing the math!

If OP mentions midrange weapons I'd guess he's nowhere close to 255 dex and doesn't get raid buffed but I could be wrong.

Hate from procs cap at 400 and its mostly procs with a lot of poison counters IIRC. Frostbringer and wavecrasher have solid hate procs but I'm not sure they go to 400. I know frostbringer is considered up there for hate generation but I've hardly ever seen wavecrasher mentionned, maybe because it is lesser known, maybe because it is so expensive for what it is.

No problem.

From my understanding the 400 hate cap only applies to the non damage portion of the spell. So the Slow in the case of Wavecrasher, and the AC reduction in the case of Frostbringer. On top of that you should get 1 hate per point of damage done.

This means Frostbringer will do up to 460 Hate per proc, assuming the AC reduction gets to the cap of 400 hate. This is because Frostbringer proc also does 60 direct damage.

If memory serves they changed how much hate slow generates somewhat recently, so I don't know of Wavecrasher would still cap at 400 for the slow portion of the proc. But if it does it would get 400 hate per proc plus an extra 200 hate per minute. I forgot that Wavecrasher is a DoT. You'd get 20 hate per tick.

Regardless, Wavecrasher isn't mentioned much because it is a weird weapon. It procs a 20% slow at level 1, but the slow only lasts 1 minute. This means you need to keep the weapon equipped for a good portion of the fight to keep the slow going.

However, at level 1 you'd be better off just killing mobs faster with something like Venemous Axe of the Velium Brood, which also procs at level 1. The ratio on axe is only slightly worse than Wavecrasher, and the 85 DD will kill lower level mobs, or significantly damage them.

At level 60 Wavecrasher isn't great because the ratio isn't very good, and you are spending a good amount of the fight with it equipped. While you'll get a 20% slow, you'll also drag the fight out longer by killing slower. So you probably don't save much HP at the end of the day. You also get access to better slow procs that last longer, like Truncheon of Doom or Swarmcaller (depending on classs) or Willsapper.

Wavecrasher would have been more interesting on P99 if it was equippable in offhand. Then you could dual wield willsapper and wavecrasher to try and apply a slow as fast as possible. On P99 people generally do more DPS than what the content was designed for, since a lot of players are heavily geared. So the defensive nature of Wavecrasher isn't as appealing on P99. On live where less people had slow weapons and people had worse weapons + lower DPS, it was probably a nicer weapon.

[Zuranthium]

Mosscovered twig is supposed to be offhand only, what is this talk?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mosscovered twig is supposed to be offhand only, what is this talk?

I believe Mosscovered Twig was primary handed for a short period of time, before it gets removed from the drop table and nerfed to secondary only. Could be wrong though, never used one myself.

[Zuranthium]

I believe Mosscovered Twig was primary handed for a short period of time

Yes but the servers are long past that era now. Why is it being discussed like it's an actual option.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes but the servers are long past that era now. Why is it being discussed like it's an actual option.

I assumed this was a theorycrafting post. I don't think anyone is actually buying/trading mosscovered twigs these days, except perhaps collectors.

[Goregasmic]

Twig as a secondary weapon has a 0.3 ratio and is fucking terrible by any metric at this point, assumed OP asked about its original form.

But considering he's comparing it to velious weaps, yeah, makes no sense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Twig as a secondary weapon has a 0.3 ratio and is fucking terrible by any metric at this point, assumed OP asked about its original form.

But considering he's comparing it to velious weaps, yeah, makes no sense.

It has an even worse ratio because offhand swings are triggered by primary hand swings. This means you get no benefit from having an offhand weapon that is faster than your primary weapon.

At best Twig is a 3/15 weapon in your offhand if you have Mosscovered Branch in your main hand, which is the fastest primary hand weapon at 15 delay. So it's a 0.2 ratio weapon or worse.

[Zuranthium]

offhand swings are triggered by primary hand swings. This means you get no benefit from having an offhand weapon that is faster than your primary weapon.

No, they are independent of each other. How are you making a DPS calculator and saying this shit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, they are independent of each other. How are you making a DPS calculator and saying this shit.

You misunderstood what I said. The Main Hand timer and the Off Hand timer are independent, but the only way an Off Hand Swing can be triggered is via a Main Hand Swing.

For example, Let's say you have a 20 Delay weapon in your Main Hand, and a 10 Delay weapon in your Off Hand:

0 Seconds - Main hand Swing Timer Started (Main hand weapon Swing)
0 Seconds - Off Hand Swing Timer Started (Dual Wield triggered, Off Hand weapon Swing)
1 Seconds - Off Hand Swing Timer Finished
2 Seconds - Main hand Swing Timer Finished
2 Seconds - Main hand Swing Timer Started (Main hand weapon Swing)
2 Seconds - Off Hand Swing Timer Started (Dual Wield triggered, Off Hand weapon Swing)
2 Seconds - Off Hand Swing Double Attack
2 Seconds - Off Hand Swing Triple Attack
etc.

The Off Hand timer finishes before the Main Hand timer, because the Off Hand weapon delay is faster. However, Off Hand Swings require a Main Hand Swing first to check whether dual wield triggers or not. This means there is no normal way to get a second Off Hand Swing between 1 second and 2 seconds, even though the Off Hand timer is ready. The exception to this would be if you get a dual wield trigger from a riposte between 1 and 2 seconds, as ripostes can happen asynchronously to your Main Hand Swings. You can also double/triple attack with an Off Hand Swing, but that wouldn't happen between 1 second and 2 seconds. It would happen at the same time as the Off Hand Swing.

You can test this yourself in P99 by doing Fistweaving on a Monk with a 2h weapon that has a higher delay than your fists. Or use a weapon like Wurmslayer in your Main Hand, and a really fast weapon in your Off Hand. You usually won't get more dual wield attempts than your dual wield percentage chance, unless perhaps you get very lucky with both dual wield triggers and Off Hand double/triple attacks. This is because every time you Swing your Main Hand, you have an X% chance to trigger dual wield, where that percent chance is based on your dual wield skill.

If you could get multiple Off Hand Swings (that are not double/triple attacks) in between Main Hand Swings by using a faster Off Hand weapon, you would see a higher volume of dual wield triggers than your dual wield percentage chance.

[Goregasmic]

I thought for DW, off hand was 100% independent but it had to pass a DW check meaning it fired less often. The DW wiki page says you can get more OH hits than MH hits if OH is faster than MH.

You're not going to get more OH swings than your DW percentage because that's what lets you swIng OH...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I thought for DW, off hand was 100% independent but it had to pass a DW check meaning it fired less often. The DW wiki page says you can get more OH hits than MH hits if OH is faster than MH.

You're not going to get more OH swings than your DW percentage because that's what lets you swIng OH...

I'll double check the game and the EQEMU code again.

[Zuranthium]

The Main Hand timer and the Off Hand timer are independent, but the only way an Off Hand Swing can be triggered is via a Main Hand Swing.

Wrong. Unless something is messed up in the p99 code right now. Otherwise you would never be able to hold a non-weapon in your primary hand and perma auto-attack with the offhand, which is supposed to be possible. Or be able to manually press to swing the offhand weapon only when you want (without auto-attack on), which is supposed to be possible.

[bcbrown]

The Main Hand timer and the Off Hand timer are independent, but the only way an Off Hand Swing can be triggered is via a Main Hand Swing.

This is definitely wrong, but it does explain some of the more baffling computational errors DSM has made in the past.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is definitely wrong, but it does explain some of the more baffling computational errors DSM has made in the past.

I understand you simply want to discredit me in anyway possible. You aren't objective when it comes to these discussions, and your quick gloating posts like this provide more evidence for your lack of objectivity. Your errors with my calculator were due to misuse. You didn't read how to use it, and then complained your DPS was too low when you gave a level 45 mob the same amount of AC as a raid mob.

It is only a minor error in the calculator if this turns out to be true. It wouldn't have affected the actual DPS tests I've done in the past on P99 that were tested against the calculator to confirm it was working.

The P99 tests I have done have all been using two handed weapons, one handed weapons on classes that cannot dual wield, or offhand weapons with a delay greater than or equal to the main hand. The calculator in it's current form will produce the same dual wield results as a 100% independent offhand timer when using a offhand weapon with a delay greater than the main hand. It simply won't give you extra DPS when using a offhand weapon with less delay than the main hand.

[bcbrown]

It simply won't give you extra DPS when using a offhand weapon with less delay than the main hand.

This is also wrong. Your DPS calculator treats low-delay offhand weapons correctly, as far as I can tell. Leaving all the values as default except making the mainhand 25/40 and the offhand 10/20 gives a DPS value of about 26. Making the offhand 10/30 gives a DPS of about 23. I'm using the wiki version. 10/40 offhand gives 21-22 DPS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is also wrong. Your DPS calculator treats low-delay offhand weapons correctly, as far as I can tell. Leaving all the values as default except making the mainhand 25/40 and the offhand 10/20 gives a DPS value of about 26. Making the offhand 10/30 gives a DPS of about 23. I'm using the wiki version. 10/40 offhand gives 21-22 DPS.

1. The wiki version is way out of date. If you read the thread you would know this. Loramin hasn't updated it to version 2.0 yet. The initial version I posted wasn't finished. I've asked Loramin to update it or take it down, but he hasn't done either.

2.Can you please show me the line of code that handles the offhand timer in the latest version of the code that is on google drive? If you think you understand my calculator well enough, then please show it and explain it.

[bcbrown]

I'm saying the wiki version seems to correctly treat offhand delay. Did you really mess it up in the later version?


function computeWeaponDelayWithHaste(attackerStatStruct, bUseOffhand, bLogHasteValue)
{
const mn_WeaponDelayDenominator = 100;

var attackerWeaponDelay = attackerStatStruct.mainHandWeaponDelay;
if(bUseOffhand)
{
attackerWeaponDelay = attackerStatStruct.offHandWeaponDelay;
}
...
}

function RunCombatSimulation(...)
{
...
const mainHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds = (computeWeaponDelayWithHaste(attackerStatStruct, false, false) / 10);
const offHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds = (computeWeaponDelayWithHaste(attackerStatStruct, true, false) / 10);
...
const mainHandOffHandDelayRatio = (mainHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds / offHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds) < 1 ? (mainHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds / offHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds) : 1; // Off hand cannot be faster than mainhand. Clamp to 1 if off hand is faster.
}


Lmao I guess so.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm saying the wiki version seems to correctly treat offhand delay. Did you really mess it up in the later version?


function computeWeaponDelayWithHaste(attackerStatStruct, bUseOffhand, bLogHasteValue)
{
const mn_WeaponDelayDenominator = 100;

var attackerWeaponDelay = attackerStatStruct.mainHandWeaponDelay;
if(bUseOffhand)
{
attackerWeaponDelay = attackerStatStruct.offHandWeaponDelay;
}
...
}

function RunCombatSimulation(...)
{
...
const mainHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds = (computeWeaponDelayWithHaste(attackerStatStruct, false, false) / 10);
const offHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds = (computeWeaponDelayWithHaste(attackerStatStruct, true, false) / 10);
...
const mainHandOffHandDelayRatio = (mainHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds / offHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds) < 1 ? (mainHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds / offHandDelayHasteAdjustedInSeconds) : 1; // Off hand cannot be faster than mainhand. Clamp to 1 if off hand is faster.
}


Lmao I guess so.

You read the code wrong, and you are still referencing wiki results after I told you it wasn't finished. As I've said before, you need to actually read. I'd be curious to know if you can figure out what the issues were.

[bcbrown]

That's the new code, I didn't look at the old code. I just noticed that the DPS prediction (on the wiki) went down when you increased the offhand delay and figured it was correctly handling offhand delay.

Are you saying both versions incorrectly handle offhand delay? That's even funnier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's the new code, I didn't look at the old code. I just noticed that the DPS prediction (on the wiki) went down when you increased the offhand delay and figured it was correctly handling offhand delay.

Are you saying both versions incorrectly handle offhand delay? That's even funnier.

You still haven't shown where the offhand is timer in either codebase. So you don't know how either work.

Keep the gloating posts coming, they just prove my point about you further.

[bcbrown]

I don't care about your DPS calculator, whether it's right or wrong. Just not useful for me. If you find it useful, great!

I'm just amused you wrote a whole-ass DPS simulator without knowing that offhand weapons aren't triggered off mainhand swings.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't care about your DPS calculator, whether it's right or wrong. Just not useful for me. If you find it useful, great!

I'm just amused you wrote a whole-ass DPS simulator without knowing that offhand weapons aren't triggered off mainhand swings.

This is precisely why you are a poor contributor to this forum.

Instead of being interested in what other people have done/contributed, you mainly care about finding mistakes and attacking people for them. You focus more on that than actually trying to help people or understand the game.

At least you exposed yourself for people to see. Thanks for that.

Thank you to Zuranthium and Goregasmic for pointing out the independent offhand timer!

I'll fix the calculator and update it soon, it's only a few lines of code that need changing. This is why I shared my calculator, so I could get input from other players to see if I missed anything.

[Jimjam]

Try something like Wurmslayer + lupine dagger or jade mace.

I thought you were including damage bonus in your aggro calcs cos off hand does use damage bonus for aggro, even if it doesn’t use it for damage).

[Samoht]

I don't care about your DPS calculator, whether it's right or wrong. Just not useful for me. If you find it useful, great!

I'm just amused you wrote a whole-ass DPS simulator without knowing that offhand weapons aren't triggered off mainhand swings.

Wait until he hears about monks twisting 2H main hand and unquipping them to immediately trigger H2H swings on off hand.

[shovelquest]

These simple steps let me get .012% more dps than you.

aW2LvQUcwqc

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait until he hears about monks twisting 2H main hand and unquipping them to immediately trigger H2H swings on off hand.

I've already included Monk fistweaving into the calculator. That was already working. The offhand timer was already acting 100% independent in my calculator before. The offhand timer just couldn't be faster than the mainhand timer. But that is fixed now, the calculator is updated.

[Solist]

DSM not understanding basics of everquest, or ever testing shit; yet saying he is god is whats wrong with p99 and this forum over the past half decade.

You've taken what people who actually test shit have said, fucked it up because you don't understand things, and then posted your drivel 10 times to 1 in every single thread to the point noone wants to even correct you any more.

You could have at any point logged into a dual wield class, put on a weapon in offhand, and just checked swings in a log over like 1 minute to check for the 77% dual wield check is working fine, and it's completely independent.

Instead you attack anyone who calls you out, every single time. Ever stop to ask why they call you out? Less and less so, not because you're more right; but because your constant drivel has worn people down to the point of not wanting to help anymore

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM not understanding basics of everquest, or ever testing shit; yet saying he is god is whats wrong with p99 and this forum over the past half decade.

You've taken what people who actually test shit have said, fucked it up because you don't understand things, and then posted your drivel 10 times to 1 in every single thread to the point noone wants to even correct you any more.

You could have at any point logged into a dual wield class, put on a weapon in offhand, and just checked swings in a log over like 1 minute to check for the 77% dual wield check is working fine, and it's completely independent.

Instead you attack anyone who calls you out, every single time. Ever stop to ask why they call you out? Less and less so, not because you're more right; but because your constant drivel has worn people down to the point of not wanting to help anymore

Yikes. None of this is true. The only drivel is this waste of a post. Sorry you are delusional and think that nobody on the forums is allowed to make a mistake. You want to make people afraid to post by claiming any mistake is equal to knowing nothing.

Posters like yourself are the problem with the p99 forums. You try to shut down discussion with these kinds of attacks. The end result is people leaving the forums so they don't have to deal with posters like you.

I can admit when I am wrong. Can you?

You need some self reflection.

[Duik]

The main reason I am here right now is to see you "defend" yourself from the meanie trollz.
Any credit you have gained for your obvious knowledge (<- yes, this is a compliment. Dont worry, it wont happen again) has been eroded by your inability to be wrong or let anyone else have the final say.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The main reason I am here right now is to see you "defend" yourself from the meanie trollz.
Any credit you have gained for your obvious knowledge (<- yes, this is a compliment. Dont worry, it wont happen again) has been eroded by your inability to be wrong or let anyone else have the final say.

Me admitting I am wrong in this thread is me... having an inability to be wrong? Why do you keep posting this nonsense?

Not sure why you think it's good or healthy for posters to lie on these forums to discredit other posters. That's bad.

The only credit being eroded is from the posters who attack other posters. Not sure why people blame me for other poster's bad behavior. Try blaming the poster at fault next time. Nothing will change otherwise.

[WarpathEQ]

I'm to the point where any thread I see DSM post in I just write off as unreadable, just like this thread has become. Because 100% of the time the thread gets hijacked and turns into him arguing with everyone else.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm to the point where any thread I see DSM post in I just write off as unreadable, just like this thread has become. Because 100% of the time the thread gets hijacked and turns into him arguing with everyone else.

Many posters on this forum have a big problem with posting off topic nonsense to derail threads. I don't do this. I stick to the topic at hand, and then I am attacked. I have the right to defend myself from obvious lies, as does everybody else.

Sadly nobody calls any other posters out for this, and they put all the blame on me. This is why the problem has been so bad for years.

If you want change, call out Solist for posting nothing but an off-topic lie. Call out any other poster who does the same.

There would be zero posts from me defending myself if I wasn't attacked.

[Solist]

DSM. You are solely responsible for the majority of people who test, parse, and spend hours clicking Donal Bp’s/hosh sticks straight not posting anymore. Like this thread, you fuck every single one of them.

[Solist]

And now Allishya is MIA, you have no one hear to leak you information she hardly understood in the first place; for you to claim as your own.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM. You are solely responsible for the majority of people who test, parse, and spend hours clicking Donal Bp’s/hosh sticks straight not posting anymore. Like this thread, you fuck every single one of them.

No, posters like you are the reason. If someone got one piece of information wrong, you write a three paragraph essay of lies claiming they are the dumbest person ever.

Why would anyone want to post their parse results when they just get abused by you and other posters who pile on?

They see how badly I get attacked and are scared off. Take some responsibility instead of just blaming me for your bad behavior.

And now Allishya is MIA, you have no one hear to leak you information she hardly understood in the first place; for you to claim as your own.

I gave credit to Allishya for her Epic Pet parse, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[PatChapp]

Thanks for doing the math!

If OP mentions midrange weapons I'd guess he's nowhere close to 255 dex and doesn't get raid buffed but I could be wrong.

Hate from procs cap at 400 and its mostly procs with a lot of poison counters IIRC. Frostbringer and wavecrasher have solid hate procs but I'm not sure they go to 400. I know frostbringer is considered up there for hate generation but I've hardly ever seen wavecrasher mentionned, maybe because it is lesser known, maybe because it is so expensive for what it is.

Poison counters were nerfed,no longer provide hate
Debuffs,stuns provide 400hate per proc. Any damage from the proc adds +1 hate if it lands.
The only exception is the warrior epic where the proc is 500 hate + any damage

[loramin]

I have the right to defend myself from obvious lies, as does everybody else.

No, you don't, and the fact that you think you do is part of your problem.

This is a forum. Its purpose is to facilitate communication about the game of EverQuest ... not to provide you or anyone else with a platform to endlessly air your grievances and "battles" with other posters.

Disagreement in a forum is normal and healthy, but you post in an abnormal and unhealthy way. You post pages of text no human would ever want to read, refuse to acknowledge the most basic facts that everyone else can plainly see, and otherwise post disengenuously and disrespectfully.

Sadly nobody calls any other posters out for this, and they put all the blame on me. This is why the problem has been so bad for years.

No one else on this forum posts like you do. You can keep playing the victim all you want, but at some point you have to recognize that all the feedback you get in the forum is because of how you post.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, you don't, and the fact that you think you do is part of your problem.

This is a forum. Its purpose is to facilitate communication about the game of EverQuest ... not to provide you or anyone else with a platform to endlessly air your grievances and "battles" with other posters.

Disagreement in a forum is normal and healthy, but you post in an abnormal and unhealthy way. You post pages of text no human would ever want to read, refuse to acknowledge the most basic facts that everyone else can plainly see, and otherwise post disengenuously and disrespectfully.



No one else on this forum posts like you do. You can keep playing the victim all you want, but at some point you have to recognize that all the feedback you get in the forum is because of how you post.

Loramin hasn't read the forum rules. Not suprising, since he doesn't read people's posts either:


Rants and Flames
Any rant or flame against a player or guild should be contained inside of the Rants and Flames forum of the respective Blue or Red server forums. Do not bash a guild or a player outside of Rants and Flames.

Off Topic
Any content not related to Project 1999 should be posted in the “Off Topic” section of the forums. All other forum rules still apply

Trolling
If you must troll another user, keep it contained to Rants and Flames. Don’t over do it.

Forum accounts created for the sole purpose of trolling are not allowed.

We encourage you to list your in-game characters in your signature so other forum users may know who your characters are in game. Its no fun reading posts from AnonymousForumTroll01 without knowing who they are in game, and this does not foster community growth.


Loramin is lying about me, claiming I deserve to be attacked, and is encouraging other people to attack me.

What a joke of an admin he is, he can't even read or uphold the rules.

[loramin]

Loramin hasn't read the forum rules. Not suprising, since he doesn't read people's posts either:



Loramin is lying about me, claiming I deserve to be attacked, and is encouraging other people to attack me.

What a joke of an admin he is, he can't even read or uphold the rules.

Ad Hominem

(Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes Loramin, this is an ad hominem:


Disagreement in a forum is normal and healthy, but you post in an abnormal and unhealthy way. You post pages of text no human would ever want to read, refuse to acknowledge the most basic facts that everyone else can plainly see, and otherwise post disengenuously and disrespectfully.



No one else on this forum posts like you do. You can keep playing the victim all you want, but at some point you have to recognize that all the feedback you get in the forum is because of how you post.


This is a lie you post repeatedly when you cannot rebut a point I have made. Are you really this blind?

[loramin]

This is a lie you post repeatedly when you cannot rebut a point I have made. Are you really this blind?

If that's a lie, why are you treated differently from everyone else in this forum? Either there's a giant conspiracy of everyone against DSM ... or maybe, just maybe ...

You can keep playing the victim all you want, but at some point you have to recognize that all the feedback you get in the forum is because of how you post.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If that's a lie, why are you treated differently from everyone else in this forum? Either A) a giant conspiracy of everyone against DSM ... or maybe, just maybe ...

You have lied about me non-stop these last few days because you lost a debate. It's unhinged.

You did that. I didn't force you to post those lies. You need to take responsibility for your poor behavior, inatead of blaming me for it.

You are breaking the forum rules by attacking me in random threads outside of RnF. How are you so blind?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is a forum. Its purpose is to facilitate communication about the game of EverQuest ... not to provide you or anyone else with a platform to endlessly air your grievances and "battles" with other posters.


It is mind boggling that Loramin says this while simultaneously posting his grievances about me in the same post. This is his first post in this thread too, so Loramin is posting his grievances in random threads.

Somehow he thinks it is my fault that he posted his grievances in this thread. This is the problem. Loramin is unable to take responsibility for his actions.

[shovelquest]

I dont read these threads but it's clear that there is no reason to lecture people about their personalities while you talk about moss covered twigs.

No, you don't, and the fact that you think you do is part of your problem.

No one else on this forum posts like you do. You can keep playing the victim all you want, but at some point you have to recognize that all the feedback you get in the forum is because of how you post.

[shovelquest]

DSM. You are solely responsible for the majority of people who test, parse, and spend hours clicking Donal Bp’s/hosh sticks straight not posting anymore. Like this thread, you fuck every single one of them.

He creates gameplay for everquest nerds? Sounds like a patriot and hero.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I dont read these threads but it's clear that there is no reason to lecture people about their personalities while you talk about moss covered twigs.

This is correct. Thank you.

[shovelquest]

You do realize Loramin is posting his grievances in that very post? This is his first post in the thread too.

This is the problem. Posters like Loramin talk about the forum rules and how to act, but don't follow it themselves.

They blame me for this bad behavior, which is silly.

This is correct. Thank you.

Bro Im a racist fascist nazi (according to them).

I think it's funny they can't even disagree with someone about everquest without making it personal.

:o hope this helps.

[Jimjam]

I dont read these threads but it's clear that there is no reason to lecture people about their personalities while you talk about moss covered twigs.

Well done for speaking up. These pals need to pop each other on ignore for a bit and cool off :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bro Im a racist fascist nazi (according to them).

I think it's funny they can't even disagree with someone about everquest without making it personal.

:o hope this helps.

We are in the same boat it seems. When they can't win with facts and logic, they get personal. It is quite frustrating.

Well done for speaking up.

Indeed, I appreciate it!

I don't put people on ignore, because I know Loramin can act normal. I hope he calms down.

[shovelquest]

Moss covered twigs is serious bizness :o

[Goregasmic]

You guys have a moss covered twig.

[shovelquest]

https://i.imgur.com/rveXZkn.png

[Duik]

On topic again.

Jimjam you have 4 posts to go for the very satisfying post count of 12345.

Onward and upwards.

Also the twig, never had one. Never even seen one. If i did i would have written it off as crappy. Ratio etc. Being a clueless noob and all.

Happy 12345 Day everyone!

[shovelquest]

I did the deepest, and most complete Moss covered twig vs Moss covered branch breakdown for min maxers that want to experience the most out of the game.

Results blow:

https://i.imgur.com/JIeqXbV.png

[Duik]

Looks like a bow and a recurve bow.

And yes, the results do blow. ;+P

[Solist]

Call out DSM for shitposting up threads.

DSM spends 2 pages shitposting up a thread saying he doesnt shitpost nonsense drivel.

Comedy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Call out DSM for shitposting up threads.

DSM spends 2 pages shitposting up a thread saying he doesnt shitpost nonsense drivel.

Comedy

Both yourself and Loramin came into this thread to attack me specifically. Neither of you had even one post that was on-topic before you started shitposting about me.

I find it mind boggling that you and Loramin think you have the right to post off-topic attacks in random threads whenever you want, but I don't have the right to defend myself from said attacks.

I don't start these back and forths. You can check the post history. You are just making yourself look like a child who doesn't understand responsibility with posts like this. The blame lies at the feet of posters who post off-topic attacks in random threads. Posters like yourself.

[shovelquest]

Call out DSM for shitposting up threads.

DSM spends 2 pages shitposting up a thread saying he doesnt shitpost nonsense drivel.

Comedy

That is a strong argument for the twig.

But the moss covered stick has the word stick in it.

So, you are very incorrect.

[Vear99]

Does anyone know if the Moss covered twig holds agro better than wave crasher or frosty?

In principle, 0.3 is a garbage ratio and the twig has no proc. However, if offhands (incorrectly) get damage bonus hate here, then (3+11)/10 = 1.4 which compares pretty reasonably with a Vulak sword (14+11)/19 = 1.35.

[Wakanda]

I believe Mosscovered Twig was primary handed for a short period of time, before it gets removed from the drop table and nerfed to secondary only. Could be wrong though, never used one myself.

The real question is, if it sucked, why was it removed? I remember the rumor back in the day was that it did ridiculous groundbreaking damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The real question is, if it sucked, why was it removed? I remember the rumor back in the day was that it did ridiculous groundbreaking damage.

If you want my thought on why it was removed, I actually think it was for technical reasons. Swinging every 0.5 seconds at 100% haste might have been too fast for 56k modems to handle consistently enough, especially if they knew overhaste was in the works already.

[Goregasmic]

The real question is, if it sucked, why was it removed? I remember the rumor back in the day was that it did ridiculous groundbreaking damage.

I read it fucking wrecked casters in pvp, mainly because of pushing IIRC.

[zelld52]

I don't start these back and forths. You can check the post history.

but you sure do like to finish em.. nothing wrong with just not responding

[zelld52]

If you want my thought on why it was removed, I actually think it was for technical reasons. Swinging every 0.5 seconds at 100% haste might have been too fast for 56k modems to handle consistently enough, especially if they knew overhaste was in the works already.

it was because monks were unbeatable in PvP with the mosscovered twig in primary.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

but you sure do like to finish em.. nothing wrong with just not responding

You didn't need to post this either!

it was because monks were unbeatable in PvP with the mosscovered twig in primary.

That could be. I don't know too much about the Twig lore.

DPS-wise Twig does a little less DPS than Epic Fist (9/16) when using it in the primary hand according to my calculator, so it wasn't exceptionally special DPS-wise. But as Gregorgasmic said, it would have pushed really well.

I read it fucking wrecked casters in pvp, mainly because of pushing IIRC.

[Ripqozko]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/33 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/373 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/1239 (0%)
+ Life: 7/1718 (0%)
```

[DeathsSilkyMist]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/33 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/373 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/1239 (0%)
+ Life: 7/1718 (0%)
```

I know you miss me! I am flattered you really want me to play, to the point where you post this all over.

[Skarne]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/33 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/373 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/1239 (0%)
+ Life: 7/1718 (0%)
```

Who’s the bigger loser the guy who doesn’t raid or the guy who measures a man by their attendance on raids?

[loramin]

Ripqozko is definitely a loser; no question there :)

But in this case at least, he's trying to make a valid point, just in an asshole way. DSM talks about lots of stuff without any basis, and he doesn't just talk, he argues, passionately, refusing to recognize anything that counters his opinion from people who actually know more (eg. one of his famous "100 page threads" was him arguing about Druid charming ... without ever having charmed on a Druid).

When Ripqozko repeats his "0% raiding" troll, he's similarly calling DSM out for saying lots of stuff about raiding (with a tone of authority) ... when he lacks the background to even be involved in such conversations, let alone dominating them with incorrect opinions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ripqozko is definitely a loser; no question there :)

But in this case at least, he's trying to make a valid point, just in an asshole way. DSM talks about lots of stuff without any basis, and he doesn't just talk, he argues, passionately, refusing to recognize anything that counters his opinion (eg. one of his famous "100 page threads" was him arguing about Druid charming ... without ever having charmed on a Druid).

When Ripqozko repeats his "0% raiding" troll, he's similarly calling DSM out for saying lots of stuff about raiding (with a tone of authority) ... when he lacks the background to even be involved in such conversations, let alone dominating them with incorrect opinions.

Loramin continues to lie about my game knowledge. He has no basis for these claims. I provide plenty of evidence to back up my claims, including video evidence, log evidence, and now a DPS calculator based on the EQEMU code that is supported by many P99 parses using different weapons, classes, and levels. My youtube channel and DPS calculator are in my signature, and links to logs can be found in the video descriptions. I admitted to being wrong in this very thread, so his idea I never admit I am wrong is proven false here.

Loramin doesn't provide any evidence for his claims most of the time. I honestly can't remember the last time he did. He just asserts his opinions as facts, and then lies about other posters when he loses the debate. This is yet another example of him doing this. He is projecting his problems on to me. He will stalk people around the forums and just repeat this nonsense as a last-ditch effort to save face.

He also revealed himself as an abuser of his admin powers. Be careful when interacting with Loramin. Once he gets a delusional idea in his head about a poster on this forum, nothing will change his mind. He will do the same thing to you as he is doing to me. Luckily the post history doesn't lie. Loramin's attempts to bury the truth in lies will always fail.

oh, yay. another thread to take above 100!

Your DerPieSt calculator is not a valid source of evidence. It has been proven to contain many uncountable flaws. It was created by a non raider that's been proven time and again to lack basic knowledge of the game.

Please don't try to use this shit as evidence. It's drawn in crayon.

My DPS calculator is open source, and I have multiple P99 parses to back it up that are linked as well. Feel free to go through the code and see if you find any flaws. I've asked you to do this multiple times now, and you havent.

Either you lack the game knowledge to check the DPS calculator, or you did check it without saying and have yet to find a flaw. Either way, your claims are baseless, and you have proven yourself to be a troll.

I find it funny you claim I am a "non raider". My Magelo has no drop raid gear in over half of my Shaman's slots from places like ToV. I raided in Aftermath quite a bit. They had a minimum raid attendence that I always exceeded.

My Enchanter is still Aftermath tagged if you don't believe me:

https://youtu.be/qYCpsgMYx7A?feature=shared

I know you always like to have the last word, so people can read my rebuttal here while you childishly praise your post being last. I understand you want to bloat every thread with nonsense, but please have some self control today.

[Samoht]

oh, yay. another thread to take above 100!

a DPS calculator based on the EQEMU code that is supported by many P99 parses using different weapons, classes, and levels.

Your DerPieSt calculator is not a valid source of evidence. It has been proven to contain many uncountable flaws. It was created by a non raider that's been proven time and again to lack basic knowledge of the game.

Please don't try to use this shit as evidence. It's drawn in crayon.

[Samoht]

My DPS calculator is open source, and I have multiple P99 parses to back it up that are linked as well. Feel free to go through the code and see if you find any flaws. I've asked you to do this multiple times now, and you havent.

Either you lack the game knowledge to check the DPS calculator, or you did check it without saying and have yet to find a flaw. Either way, your claims are baseless, and you have proven yourself to be a troll.

I find it funny you claim I am a "non raider". My Magelo has no drop raid gear in over half of my Shaman's slots from places like ToV. I raided in Aftermath quite a bit. They had a minimum raid attendence that I always exceeded.

My Enchanter is still Aftermath tagged if you don't believe me:

https://youtu.be/qYCpsgMYx7A?feature=shared

I know you always like to have the last word, so people can read my rebuttal here while you childishly praise your post being last. I understand you want to bloat every thread with nonsense, but please have some self control today.

None of your delusions listed here are relevant to the conversation. You're not allowed to use yourself or your flawed calculator as proof of anything other than your massively overinflated sense of self worth.

LOL @ Sarnak Battle Shield and Diamond Wedding Band. Such great raid gear.

[Zuranthium]

DPS-wise Twig does a little less DPS than Epic Fist (9/16) when using it in the primary hand according to my calculator, so it wasn't exceptionally special DPS-wise.

Epics didn't exist when Kunark was released and barely anyone had epics before 2001.

Mosscovered Twig was the top DPS weapon in the game, along with Barbed Scale Whip, and both hilariously dropped from low level MOBs in Frontier Mountains. So of course they were changed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Epics didn't exist when Kunark was released and barely anyone had epics before 2001.

Mosscovered Twig was the top DPS weapon in the game, along with Barbed Scale Whip, and both hilariously dropped from low level MOBs in Frontier Mountains. So of course they were changed.

I didn't say Epics were common back then. My point was simply that Twig doesn't always out DPS other 1h Kunark-Era weapons, so it wasn't over powered from a raw DPS perspective. Adamantite Club in main hand also out DPSes Twig in many scenarios. The scenario in which Twig can out DPS Epic Fist and Addy Club is against a high AC target. But Kunark raid mobs didn't really have the high AC that we see in Velious.

So a nerf would be due to something like technical limitations, pushing, or ease of acquiring the item. It certainly is easier to get than Epic or Adamantite Club.

[Zuranthium]

My point was simply that Twig doesn't always out DPS other 1h Kunark-Era weapons

Your "point" is wrong. Twig did out DPS every other 1H weapon in the game at the time, with the mechanics that were in the game at the time. Hence why people in top raid guilds at the time were complaining about it. They changed the damage formula at some point after Kunark release.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your "point" is wrong. Twig did out DPS every other 1H weapon in the game at the time, with the mechanics that were in the game at the time. Hence why people in top raid guilds at the time were complaining about it. They changed the damage formula at some point after Kunark release.

I am not sure why you keep doing this. The reality is this thread is talking about Mosscovered Twig on P99. My calculator shows that Twig does not out-DPS other 1h weapons on P99 like Epic Fist or Addy Club, unless you are fighting a high AC target. This is using it in your primary hand. Thus far you have no P99 parses to prove otherwise.

Is it possible Twig was the best 1h weapon on live when it came out? Maybe. I doubt you have solid enough evidence for this claim either way. The data from back then is not very reliable, and it isn't really relevant to OP's question on P99.

If you can find some patch notes or a dev talkimg about it, that would be great! Learning EQ history is always fun.

[bcbrown]

Without evidence it is your word vs. my calculator. Remember that most people didn't have higher end kunark weapons, so the data could easily be skewed towards the more common weapon set. You'd have more Twig parses than Addy Club parses. That doesn't mean Addy Club actually did less DPS than Twig, even during the supposed timeframe you are discussing. Often times player reports weren't that accurate. People also tried to keep secrets, so it is possible they didn't want people to know how good other weapons were.

Also remember that the developers knew about weapons that hadn't come out yet. Weapon balance was in the works for weapons like Epic Fist before the weapons came out to the public. They probably had statistics spreadsheets for the amount of DPS different weapons did.


*Low-Delay Weapons and Damage Bonus Changes*

In accordance with our announcement several weeks ago, two low-delay weapons can now only be equipped in the off-hand. Included in this change are the Mosscovered Twig and the Barbed Scale Whip. The delay on these weapons and the associated damage bonus to weapons in the primary hand made these weapons much too powerful for their availability and the risk associated with their acquisition.


from https://archives.jeuxonline.info/fils/17142.html

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The delay on these weapons and the associated damage bonus to weapons in the primary hand made these weapons much too powerful for their availability and the risk associated with their acquisition.


Thanks Bcbrown! As this says, it wasn't due to the DPS being better than all other 1h weapons. It was just better DPS than it should have been for how easy it was to get. My calculator showed as much.

[bcbrown]

The exact same patch released epics, so we can safely disregard epics:


New Epic Quests We are pleased to announce that we have implemented new "Fiery Avenger" style quests for every class in the game (including paladins). The ultimate reward for each quest boasts a custom model with unique particle effects. We think that you will be pleased.

[Zuranthium]

I am not sure why you keep doing this.

The question is why do YOU keep doing this?

You're talking about epic weapons when they were not in the game and you keep talking about your damage calculator when it's NOT how things were calculated at the time. You came up with some random harebrained thesis that "moss covered twig was nerfed because of technical limitations" and you're again trying to double-down on dumb things you say and argue to death, so that you don't have to admit you're wrong.

This post shows how things were working back then - http://web.archive.org/web/20010721115457/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=

Weapons were most commonly hitting for (double the listed damage + level mod) and minimum damage hits were the same for all weapons and happened more frequently. This made it so things were very skewed in favor of low delay weapons.

Exactly as I said, moss covered twig and barbed scale whip were outdamaging every other weapon at the time. Raiders were really mad about it, because the best weapons in game were these easy to obtain things that invalidated planar gear and everything else available.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The question is why do YOU keep doing this?

You're talking about epic weapons when they were not in the game and you keep talking about your damage calculator when it's NOT how things were calculated at the time. You came up with some random harebrained thesis that "moss covered twig was nerfed because of technical limitations" and you're again trying to double-down on dumb things you say and argue to death, so that you don't have to admit you're wrong.

This post shows how things were working back then - http://web.archive.org/web/20010721115457/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=

Weapons were most commonly hitting for (double the listed damage + level mod) and minimum damage hits were the same for all weapons and happened more frequently. This made it so things were very skewed in favor of low delay weapons.

Exactly as I said, moss covered twig and barbed scale whip were outdamaging every other weapon at the time. Raiders were really mad about it, because the best weapons in game were these easy to obtain things that invalidated planar gear and everything else available.

You were the one started this new conversation by claiming I was wrong without evidence.

I believe you think too much about how Everquest was historically. I already stated earlier I wasn't an expert on Twig lore. But you didn't supply any evidence for your claims until this post. I am not sure why you assume I must agree with your historical claims when you do not provide evidence.

I also did not make a historical claim that Epic and Twig were used side-by-side. You assumed that. I just picked a 1h Kunark-Era weapon to compare weapon ratios. That weapon happened to be Epic Fist. I was looking at era-appropriate weapon ratios, not historical data.

I switched to Adamantite Club because it would get you out of your historical headspace. Adamantite Club has a better ratio, so it can replace Epic Fist in my example.

My DPS calculator uses EQEMU code, which was based off of many people backwards engineering live. I trust that they did a good job. My DPS calculator shows the same pattern, where lower delay weapons improve DPS-wise as AC increases due to damage bonus. Nobody is disagreeing with you on that point.

At the same time, many people on live weren't fighting high AC, high level mobs. Many players didn't even get to 60 before Velious came out. A weapon like Adamantite Club would have probably beaten Twig on XP mobs if Adamantite Club was easier to get based on my calculator. Is it a large margin? No, but I don't like absolute statements about Twig beating every weapon, as it hides the nuance.

As the patch notes said, Twig was too powerful for how easy it was to get. Hence the nerf.

[bcbrown]

Seems to me that a weapon that does almost as much DPS as an epic, before epics were released, is a weapon that does exceptional DPS, regardless of whether it's the top DPS weapon or top-2 of its time.

[Wakanda]

It was always explained to me back in the day that the twig was removed because the damage was too insane. I feel like it was discussed excessively on the forums at the time. I never saw one in game though, so it’s basically hearsay at this point.

The reason I inquired about it in this thread is because I saw a YouTube video about the top 10 removed / nerfed EQ items, and the guy filming the video said the Twig was removed because it could push mobs. But I always heard the opposite, and that it was just insane dps.

I feel like fast weapons were a bigger deal in OG EQ in general. I remember jade maces, locustlure and lamentations were really popular compared to how they are now.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4

Some interesting comments from back in the day, although nothing too early. Still shows what a notorious item it was. I remember kicking myself for not getting one :mad:

There was also some other stuff that got removed during this same time period, if I recall? Was there not some 15 damage harpoon when Kunark first came out that they quickly removed from the game?

[Wakanda]

I found it

https://wiki.project1999.com/Gunthak_Harpoon

I started to think I hallucinated this whole thing since it’s not listed under removed items in the wiki page

I guess they left it in game but changed it to no rent and made it weigh 20 pounds instead ��

Also does anyone know why they removed the ringed mace of ykesha? 10/WW with ykesha proc doesn’t seem that op, but I’m guessing it was too good for aggro or something?

[zelld52]

Fuckin hell DSM stop bringing up your DPS calculator.

You have someone telling you HOW IT WAS IN GAME FOR REAL.

Your response, "Yeah but my DPS calculator says..."

Step aside, sit down, take a walk, go home and all of that jazz

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fuckin hell DSM stop bringing up your DPS calculator.

You have someone telling you HOW IT WAS IN GAME FOR REAL.

Your response, "Yeah but my DPS calculator says..."

Step aside, sit down, take a walk, go home and all of that jazz

He didn't post any evidence initally for his claims. There is no reason to simply take his word. Nor is my DPS calculator invalidated simply because you or someone else says so.

[zelld52]

https://imgur.com/a/AzqzyqB#S4yzb4M

Are you just sitting at your PC refreshing the thread so that you can reply if anyone conjurs you via saying "DSM"

OP said "Thank you" and exited this post on page 1, message 4. I think I'll do the same

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://imgur.com/a/AzqzyqB#S4yzb4M

Are you just sitting at your PC refreshing the thread so that you can reply if anyone conjurs you via saying "DSM"

OP said "Thank you" and exited this post on page 1, message 4. I think I'll do the same

You didn't need to post this. Nor did you need to post this:

but you sure do like to finish em.. nothing wrong with just not responding

We saw in this thread multiple thoughts on why Twig might have been removed. There is nothing wrong with speculation.

If people want to make a historical claim of fact, leading with some evidence is the way to go. Not everybody is going to assume someone is correct simply because they say so. This includes myself, which I why I try to provide evidence whenever I can.

[loramin]

OP said "Thank you" and exited this post on page 1, message 4. I think I'll do the same

http://i.imgur.com/1GjrVm1.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seems to me that a weapon that does almost as much DPS as an epic, before epics were released, is a weapon that does exceptional DPS, regardless of whether it's the top DPS weapon or top-2 of its time.

There are other weapons that out-DPS Twig in-era as well. Addy Club was just one example. SK's can also use Twig, and Ebon Mace out DPSes Twig. There is more than one example.

The point I am making is the DPS from Twig was not wildly off-course for the era. It wasn't doing 2x the DPS of Addy Club. It was performing within range of existing weapons, it was just too easy to get.

[Samoht]

Are you just sitting at your PC refreshing the thread so that you can reply if anyone conjurs you via saying "

Yes he is. Arguing on the P99 forums is literally the only thing he has going on in his life.

He didn't post any evidence initally for his claims.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say neither did you. Because you never do.

If you do the (weapdmg x2 +db)/dly formula twig comes slightly ahead. So in the end it is down to how many procs you think you're going to get. Longer fights proc might win but on trash it isn't a given.

Hate is weapdmg + DB on every swing. And then procs.

The correct calculation was provided on the first page. No derpiest calculator required.

The delay on these weapons and the associated damage bonus to weapons in the primary hand made these weapons much too powerful for their availability and the risk associated with their acquisition

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say neither did you. Because you never do.


I provide plenty of evidence in multiple formats, everybody can check the post history. You just discredit yourself further. You provide plenty of lies. I didn't make a factual claim about the history. Zuranthium did.

Do you have any evidence you have ever provided evidence? People can look in my signature for my Youtube channel.

[Ripqozko]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/33 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/373 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/1239 (0%)
+ Life: 7/1718 (0%)
```

[Zuranthium]

I believe you think too much about how Everquest was historically.

One of the dumbest things you could possibly say. The topic of discussion was how things operated historically.

I didn't make a factual claim about the history.

Yes you did. Your claim that twig "wasn't exceptionally special DPS-wise" is completely wrong. Stop talking about things you don't understand.

[Samoht]

I provide plenty of evidence in multiple formats, everybody can check the post history. You just discredit yourself further. You provide plenty of lies. I didn't make a factual claim about the history. Zuranthium did.

Do you have any evidence you have ever provided evidence? People can look in my signature for my Youtube channel.

Did you reply to my post just to bitch and moan? Why didn't you address any of the facts included with it that prove how wrong you are? Wait, we both know the answer to that: you can't deal with being wrong.

This thread is over now. You're only showing how stupid you are. Stop posting.

See? No proof that he has provided any evidence for his claims. We are still waiting for your solo kill videos too.

Can't attack the message, so you attack the poster. Read the rest of my post you quoted. Stop posting. 0% raid attendance. Moron.

Looking at the DPS, Twig falls within the range of existing in-era weapons. OP was asking about Twig on P99, not in on live in 2000. You need to understand that most people want to know how P99 works now.

The existing in-era weapons were much harder to obtain and therefor not OP like the twig. Sorry that's too hard for you to comprehend. If you actually read the posts you're replying to, you might see that that's already been explained here.

AI Overview
Understanding Cognitive Dissonance: The Psychology Behind ...
Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced when holding conflicting beliefs, values, or attitudes, or when actions contradict those beliefs. This discomfort can motivate individuals to reduce the tension by changing their beliefs, behaviors, or attitudes to create consistency.
Here are some key aspects of cognitive dissonance:

Core Concept:
It arises from psychological tension between conflicting thoughts, feelings, or behaviors.

Example:
DSM posting on P99 forums to make arguments against logic that is explained to him because he does not wish to hear answers from people smarter than he is.

You clearly didn't read my posts where I agreed availability was the issue. My point is that the DPS of Twig wasn't far beyond every other 1h weapon in-era. The DPS was in range of existing weapons.

Why are you still backing your failing argument then? Besides the cognitive dissonance, anyway.

I made a valid point, as it is true that Twig DPS falls within range of existing in-era weapons. This point helps clarify why Twig was nerfed. It wasn't due to Twig doing 3x the DPS of Addy Club. It was due to ease of getting Twig. Those are two distinct reasons for nerfing something. Not sure why you keep arguing about this, other than doing it for argument's sake.

You've contributed nothing to this thread other than steering people away from facts. Now shut up. Stop posting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did you reply to my post just to bitch and moan? Why didn't you address any of the facts included with it that prove how wrong you are? Wait, we both know the answer to that: you can't deal with being wrong.

This thread is over now. You're only showing how stupid you are. Stop posting.

See? No proof that he has provided any evidence for his claims. We are still waiting for your solo kill videos too.

One of the dumbest things you could possibly say. The topic of discussion was how things operated historically.

Yes you did. Your claim that twig "wasn't exceptionally special DPS-wise" is completely wrong. Stop talking about things you don't understand.

Looking at the DPS, Twig falls within the range of existing in-era weapons.

OP was asking about Twig on P99, not on live in 2000. You need to understand that most people want to know how P99 works now when they ask questions in these sections.


The existing in-era weapons were much harder to obtain and therefor not OP like the twig.


You clearly didn't read my posts where I agreed availability was the issue. My point is that the DPS of Twig wasn't far beyond every other 1h weapon in-era. The DPS was in range of existing weapons.


Why are you still backing your failing argument then? Besides the cognitive dissonance, anyway.

I made a valid point, as it is true that Twig DPS falls within range of existing in-era weapons. This point helps clarify why Twig was nerfed. It wasn't due to Twig doing 3x the DPS of Addy Club. It was due to ease of getting Twig. Those are two distinct reasons for nerfing something. Not sure why you keep arguing about this, other than doing it for argument's sake.

[Zuranthium]

Looking at the DPS, Twig falls within the range of existing in-era weapons.

NO it doesn't. Epics were not "in-era" weapons and you don't understand how DPS was calculated back then.

OP was asking about Twig on P99, not on live in 2000.

YOU are the one who started talking about how things worked in 2000, writing nonsense and acting like you're some kind of authority, when you're not. I responded to your nonsense to correct it. I was playing back then and following everything closely, you weren't. It's bad enough that you try to argue when you're unqualified in the first place, and it's even worse that you're continuing to argue when in-era parses were linked.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

NO it doesn't. Epics were not "in-era" weapons and you don't understand how DPS was calculated back then.



YOU are the one who started talking about how things worked in 2000, writing nonsense and acting like you're some kind of authority, when you're not. I responded to your nonsense to correct it. I was playing back then and following everything closely, you weren't. It's bad enough that you try to argue when you're unqualified in the first place, and it's even worse that you're continuing to argue when in-era parses were linked.

Why lie about the post history? Everybody can read it.

I didn't say Epics and Twig were together. You assumed that. I just used Epic Fist as an example. I switched to Addy Club for my example so you would stop fixating on something you made up. I said this already.

I already said I wasn't a historian on Twig.

I didn't start the conversation, somebody asked me my opinion, and I gave it. I didn't claim it was factual.
AKA moving the goal post. You were wrong about in-era weapons, and now you're still wrong to compare to addy club, but you're still arguing.



Your knowledge seems to come up short on anything EQ related, not just twig.



I honestly doubt anybody cared to ask your opinion. Can you prove it?

Lol you just keep lying. I'll be suprised when I see a truthful statement.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3749283&postcount=68

Wakanda quoted me specifically and asked why it was removed.


Overhaste didn't even exist. Your response had no basis in reality.

You didn't read my quote. I was talking about the developers of Everquest. They know about the roadmap for how the game is going to develop new features before the players do. They would know about Overhaste before players do.


Your stupid point about overhaste should be disregarded because it's just wild speculation on your part. You cannot inject your delusions and pretend like it's reality.

I just gave my opinion, with no claim of it being a fact. I am sorry you think people are not allowed to say their opinions on a forum.


Oh, yay. Are you finally admitting you got caught in a lie? Now that you're completely disproven and discredited in this thread, you're going to stop posting, right?


I am sorry you don't understand the difference between a lie and an opinion.


NOW this post isn't going to come around and bite you in the ass every time you post... ROFL

It won't. People can read the post history and see the truth. No amount of flailing from you will change what happened in this thread.


Fact is: your response was 100% fabricated and passed off as truth. By definition, that makes it a lie.

I am sorry YOU don't understand the difference between a lie and an opinion.

People can read my quote and make their own decision. People can look at your behavior too. You are just helping me out by looking more and more unhinged. Keep going.

[Samoht]

Why lie about the post history? Everybody can read it.

I didn't say Epics and Twig were together. You assumed that. I just used Epic Fist as an example. I switched to Addy Club for my example so you would stop fixating on something you made up. I said this already.

AKA moving the goal post. You were wrong about in-era weapons, and now you're still wrong to compare to addy club, but you're still arguing.

I already said I wasn't a historian on Twig.

Your knowledge seems to come up short on anything EQ related, not just twig.

I didn't start the conversation, somebody asked me my opinion, and I gave it. I didn't claim it was factual.

I honestly doubt anybody cared to ask your opinion. Can you prove it?

Wakanda quoted me specifically and asked why it was removed.

Holy shit. Look at this bullshit nonsensical made up answer you gave:

If you want my thought on why it was removed, I actually think it was for technical reasons. Swinging every 0.5 seconds at 100% haste might have been too fast for 56k modems to handle consistently enough, especially if they knew overhaste was in the works already.

Overhaste didn't even exist. Your response had no basis in reality.

You didn't read my quote. I was talking about the developers. They know about the roadmap for how the game is going to develop new features before the players do.

Your stupid point about overhaste should be disregarded because it's just wild speculation on your part. You cannot inject your delusions and pretend like it's reality.

I just gave my opinion, with no claim of it being a fact. I am sorry you think people are not allowed to say their opinions on a forum.

Oh, yay. Are you finally admitting you got caught in a lie? Now that you're completely disproven and discredited in this thread, you're going to stop posting, right?

Right?

I am sorry you don't understand the difference between a lie and an opinion.

NOW this post isn't going to come around and bite you in the ass every time you post... ROFL

Fact is: your response was 100% fabricated and passed off as truth. By definition, that makes it a lie.

I am sorry YOU don't understand the difference between a lie and an opinion.

It won't. People can read the post history and see the truth. No amount of flailing from you will change what happened in this thread.

Yeah, they can. They can see that this statement is 0% truth:

If you want my thought on why it was removed, I actually think it was for technical reasons. Swinging every 0.5 seconds at 100% haste might have been too fast for 56k modems to handle consistently enough, especially if they knew overhaste was in the works already.

This is a lie, not an opinion. No facts to back it up. Just conjecture from the forum clown.

[CrazyPro]

inb4 we reach 100 pages

[Samoht]

inb4 we reach 100 pages

The thread was solved on the first page. I'm not sure why DSM is still insisting on adding his misinformation to the thread, but heaven help us if he doesn't stop.

Samoht should take his own advice and stop posting. He is just digging himself deeper. He will just keep posting lies over and over until he gets the last word. He is giving me tons of evidence that he is a troll.

Digging myself deeper where exactly? Is some guy with a 0% raid attendance going to block me from assimilating into the next zerg guild? Is there any point to this post other than bitching and moaning?

I will never understand this kind of self destructive behavior. It doesn't hurt my credibility when he lies and everybody can see it is a lie.

So you'll never understand yourself? Heard that. I'll admit that I lack the expertise to understand you, either. But my credibility isn't in question here. I've already pulled out and shut down several lies you made in this thread and all you can do is cry about it.

Like I said, I'm not sure why you're still posting in a thread where you've been proven wrong. You aren't adding anything except more misinformation.

People can read the thread and make their own decisions.

You have nothing else to add to the moss covered twig topic, right? Does that mean you're going to stop posting now?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The thread was solved on the first page. I'm not sure why DSM is still insisting on adding his misinformation to the thread, but heaven help us if he doesn't stop.

Samoht should take his own advice and stop posting. He is just digging himself deeper. He will just keep posting lies over and over until he gets the last word. He is giving me tons of evidence that he is a troll. I will never understand this kind of self destructive behavior. It doesn't hurt my credibility when he lies and everybody can see it is a lie.

People can read the thread and make their own decisions. We all know Samoht is just itching for the last word. He will probably edit his post above.

[Samoht]

Back on topic:

(weapdmg x2 +db)/dly

Using the correct formula for weapon DPS/hate, the Adamantite Club (https://wiki.project1999.com/Adamantite_Club) is not even half as good as the Mosscovered Twig (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mosscovered_Twig). The super speed means applying damage bonus much more frequently. This is the same reason that makes Nevederia's Horn (https://wiki.project1999.com/Nevederia%27s_Horn) the best warrior offhand weapon for tanking right now. Why Vyemm's Fang (https://wiki.project1999.com/Vyemm%27s_Fang) might sometimes parse better than Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mrylokar%60s_Dagger_of_Vengeance), and why it will beat it if you're weapon swapping when you backstab.

Mace of the Shadowed Souls (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mace_of_the_Shadowed_Soul) is almost as good, not because it's fast, but because it hits hard.

But AClub is monk only, and MOSS is SK only, so both examples were completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Also, both were considerably harder to obtain as level 50s in classic gear entering into Kunark, so the whole risk vs reward thing meant that MOSS was in a good spot while the twig was too available.

[kjs86z2]

inb4 we reach 100 pages

[Samoht]

Using the correct formula for weapon DPS/hate, the Adamantite Club (https://wiki.project1999.com/Adamantite_Club) is not even half as good as the Mosscovered Twig (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mosscovered_Twig).

Typoed the math on this (entered wrong ratio on AClub), and it is as good as twig, but still monk only.

Both Wavecrasher (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wavecrasher) and Frostbringer (https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostbringer) are very close in hate per swing to the twig. The procs should push them over. I personally have a strong dislike for the Wavecrasher, though, because the premium cost. I understand that it's difficult to obtain, but the slow is not very good.

As a note, adding haste does not appear to change the ratings to make one weapon more viable than the other because the increase from haste is flat across all ratios. Hasted twig vs hasted frosty vs hasted wavecrasher are still in same order as long as the haste is the same.

[Snaggles]

Outside hate generation the Wavecrasher actually has a useful proc. Slow also negates NPC haste to my knowledge. It might be the best droppable knight tanking weapon too for anything you can slow which normally wouldn’t be.

[bcbrown]

Samoht didn't do the math right:

((3 × 2) + 11) / 10 = 1.54 - Twig

((15 x 2) + 11) / 25 = 1.64 - Addy Club

((19x 2) + 11) / 24 = 2.04 - Ebon Mace

3*2 is 6. Plus 11 is 17. 17 divided by 10 is 1.7

C'mon now. Not a good look to fuck up the math while saying someone else didn't do the math right.

[Samoht]

He deleted his post! So glad we have it quoted for posterity.

Samoht was talking about hate instead of damage

Excuse me for keeping the thread on topic instead of just spamming personal attacks like you do.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

3*2 is 6. Plus 11 is 17. 17 divided by 10 is 1.7

C'mon now. Not a good look to fuck up the math while saying someone else didn't do the math right.

It was a copy/paste issue with the Addy Club line. It's faster to copy those lines and change the numbers instead of typing it out from scratch. I didn't update the result for that line. It was my bad for not double checking that before submitting.

Samoht was talking about hate instead of damage, so there was no reason to rehash what I said on page 1.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3741675&postcount=7


Excuse me for keeping the thread on topic instead of just spamming personal attacks like you do.

People can still read the thread and see who does the personal attacks. It is you.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3749448&postcount=79

oh, yay. another thread to take above 100!

Your DerPieSt calculator is not a valid source of evidence. It has been proven to contain many uncountable flaws. It was created by a non raider that's been proven time and again to lack basic knowledge of the game.

Please don't try to use this shit as evidence. It's drawn in crayon.

This was your second post in this thread, completely off topic. You can't hide the post history.

[Zuranthium]

I switched to Addy Club for my example

Addy Club didn't do better DPS than Twig in 2000. You are wrong. Get that through your head. Parses have been posted. Twig and Whip were the best DPS in game at the time, and changed to offhand only as a result of raiders loudly complaining about the best weapons in game dropping on random low level MOBs. The EQ designer who put those items in game didn't realize how weapon damage actually worked, like many other people at the time.

[Samoht]

This was your second post in this thread, completely off topic.

The post you quoted seems to be 100% on topic to me. You made some asinine comments about the question and got ripped a part. You've been absolutely shredded in this thread to the point where you're arguing semantics about what is and isn't on topic. More straw man arguments. More moving goal posts.

Why are you still posting here? I have never seen anybody be so wrong and yet keep insisting than you here today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Addy Club didn't do better DPS than Twig in 2000. You are wrong. Get that through your head. Parses have been posted. Twig and Whip were the best DPS in game at the time, and changed to offhand only as a result of raiders loudly complaining about the best weapons in game dropping on random low level MOBs. The EQ designer who put those items in game didn't realize how weapon damage actually worked, like many other people at the time.

It depends on the AC of the mob. I already told you Twig can out DPS Addy Club if the AC is high enough multiple times. There is also a bit of extra DPS from the proc.

We can use Ebon Mace instead if you don't like Addy Club.

[bcbrown]

It depends on the AC of the mob. I already told you Twig can out DPS Addy Club if the AC is high enough multiple times. There is also a bit of extra DPS from the proc.

We can use Ebon Mace instead if you don't like Addy Club.

So is the entirety of your argument that when Zuranthium said:

Epics didn't exist when Kunark was released and barely anyone had epics before 2001.

Mosscovered Twig was the top DPS weapon in the game, along with Barbed Scale Whip, and both hilariously dropped from low level MOBs in Frontier Mountains. So of course they were changed.

There was one, maybe two weapons that were slighly better but class specific that dropped deep inside the hardest dungeons?

[CrazyPro]

allow me to introduce https://wiki.project1999.com/Bixie_Sword_Blade to this conversation

it was originally a 2/6 ratio

with the main hand damage bonus that's gotta be something

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So is the entirety of your argument that when Zuranthium said:

There was one, maybe two weapons that were slighly better but class specific that dropped deep inside the hardest dungeons?

Zuranthium is incorrect for saying Twig was better than every other 1h weapon. It's that simple. I am not sure why he can't concede on even this point.

[bcbrown]

Zuranthium is incorrect for saying Twig was better than every other 1h weapon. It's that simple. I am not sure why he can't concede on even this point.

And you have no historical evidence that he is wrong? No parses, no forum posts from that era?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And you have no historical evidence that he is wrong? No parses, no forum posts from that era?

Yes, the EQEMU code. It was built by multiple smart programmers backwards engineering the game over the years. They already have code for emulating Classic to Velious as well that isn't P99 specific.

I trust the EQEMU folks more than random parses honestly.

[Samoht]

Yes, the EQEMU code. It was built by multiple smart programmers backwards engineering the game over the years. They already have code for emulating Classic to Velious as well that isn't P99 specific.

I trust the EQEMU folks more than random parses honestly.

I'm pretty sure by "EQEMU code" he means his derpiest calculator. He's trying to misdirect you because he knows better than to mention that piece of shit any more.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm pretty sure by "EQEMU code" he means his derpiest calculator. He's trying to misdirect you because he knows better than to mention that piece of shit any more.

My dps calc uses the eqemu code.

[Zuranthium]

Zuranthium is incorrect for saying Twig was better than every other 1h weapon.

No I'm not. YOU are wrong about how damage was calculated and you are wrong for trying to say Twig didn't do any special amount of damage. It absolutely did.

I trust the EQEMU folks more than random parses honestly.

"Random parses". There were a lot done back in the day. It was something all informed players came to understand about weapon damage.

Absolute clown behavior to keep trying to ignore in-era data and the hundreds of people who were writing on forums about it back then.

The base EQEMU code was built based on Planes of Power era, you donkey.

allow me to introduce https://wiki.project1999.com/Bixie_Sword_Blade to this conversation

it was originally a 2/6 ratio

with the main hand damage bonus that's gotta be something

A good weapon but worse than Twig/Whip because attack speed was capped at .5 delay - attacks never went any faster than that. SK's and Paladins can't dual wield either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No I'm not. YOU are wrong about how damage was calculated and you are wrong for trying to say Twig didn't do any special amount of damage. It absolutely did.



"Random parses". There were a lot done back in the day. It was something all informed players came to understand about weapon damage.

Absolute clown behavior to keep trying to ignore in-era data and the hundreds of people who were writing on forums about it back then.

The base EQEMU code was built based on Planes of Power era, you donkey.



A good weapon but worse than Twig/Whip because attack speed was capped at .5 delay - attacks never went any faster than that. SK's and Paladins can't dual wield either.

Even informed players do bad parses. I'll trust the EQEMU over parses from a time when the internet was not very good at recording things. There are many myths and disputes from back then.

[Zuranthium]

What are you talking about recording things? It was concrete game data.

And we all saw with our own eyes back then. Melee players with those weapons killed faster than with anything else.

There are no "EQEMU parses." Their code is based on Planes of Power EQ. Not Kunark EQ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What are you talking about recording things? It was concrete game data.

And we all saw with our own eyes back then. Melee players with those weapons killed faster than with anything else.

There are no "EQEMU parses." Their code is based on Planes of Power EQ. Not Kunark EQ.

EQEMU used techniques like packet sniffing to get the data and rebuild the server code. So yes, they would have combat data.

[bcbrown]

Found another interesting mention:

One last item for today, and this one's going to involve mechanics talk. As of my last post, you saw me mention Damage Bonus. Damage Bonus is an extra mechanic for melee characters to watch; it is a direct bonus to damage done by a weapon. See, damage calculations in EverQuest start with (Base Damage)*2, and goes up based on your skill with that weapon and your Strength score. Damage Bonus adds a flat modifier at the end of the damage calculation, so you'll never hit for "1" ever again once you start to get it. This damage bonus starts at around level 20, and goes up solely based on your level; which is to say, that your level is the determining factor as to what level of damage bonus you get.

Now originally, the damage bonus was hugely in favor of one-handed weapons with low delay, as it was a flat number across all weapons, so it behooved you to slam as many attacks as you could out in as little a time as possible. Even relatively mundane weapons like Fine Steel Daggers (3/19) became absolute blenders with a haste item and a haste spell active on a level 50 melee character. It was changed, and we'll get to why in a moment, during Kunark to a more complicated formula based on level and the delay of the weapon involved. (It was later changed again just before Shadows of Luclin.)

The formula looked like this:

delay<29= ((level - 28)/3) + 1
28<delay<40 = (level - 25)/2
39<delay<43 = (level - 25)/2 + 1
42<delay<45 = (level - 25)/2 + 3
45<delay = (level - 25)/2 + (delay - 31)/3

Faster weapons get comparatively less damage bonus (at level 65, this is 13 points), while higher delay weapons get more, making two-handed weapons more viable. And since the Paladin and Shadow Knights' Epic Weapons are two-handers (which allow bashing without a shield), that made them more viable.

In Kunark, a weapon dropped that helped prompt the Kunark change to the formula above, some five months after Kunark's launch. This item was called the Mosscovered Twig. A comparatively lesser-known item, it dropped in the Frontier Mountains off a named yeti named Boogoog. This weapon was a 3/10 one-handed blunt.

In Kunark, there was no minimum delay. These days, 8 delay is the absolute lowest you can get melee attacks to, and it's because of weapons like this. With a good haste item, and a haste spell buff, this item could absolutely.

Positively.

DESTROY any enemy. 10 delay, plus damage bonus, even on a humble 3 damage weapon, became a completely and utterly destructive force in the hands of the two classes who only hit things - Warrior and Monk, both of whom could use it (along with Rangers, Shadow Knights, and Paladins). To say nothing of what happened when they were hasted below 10 delay; I believe with hitting the 100% haste cap, this became 5 delay, though it's been a while since I looked into the exact math haste does on delay.

To speak briefly on delay, as well - put a decimal point in between the two numbers. A 19 delay causes an attack every 1.9 seconds, for example. A 150 delay, and yes, there is a weapon with 150 delay, attacks every 15 seconds. At 5 delay, that's an attack roll every half-second (0.5), and every attack roll independently rolls for things like Double Attack and crits.

Unlike past nerfs, this was the first example of Verant straight up both replacing the item that caused problems, and nerfing the grandfathered version. The Mosscovered Twig was changed to Secondary only, and was replaced in Boogoog's drop table by the Mosscovered Branch, a 5/15 two-handed blunt weapon - which was positively useless for anything but leveling up your two-handed blunt skill. Secondary weapons do not get the damage bonus, and thus the problem was solved - and then only a few months later they changed the damage bonus calculation anyways which would have made the Twig an interesting, but only moderately useful weapon. Alas, Mosscovered Twig; your time was gone too soon.
From https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4006486

[Zuranthium]

EQEMU used techniques like packet sniffing to get the data and rebuild the server code. So yes, they would have combat data.

No, they wouldn't. There was no packet sniffing they did of 2000 era EQ servers, since they don't have a fucking time machine.

All their packet sniffing came from Alkabor, a PLANES OF POWER era server. What do you not understand about this still?

You are wrong. Stop trying to argue that you're not.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, they wouldn't. There was no packet sniffing they did of 2000 era EQ servers, since they don't have a fucking time machine.

All their packet sniffing came from Alkabor, a PLANES OF POWER era server. What do you not understand about this still?

You are wrong. Stop trying to argue that you're not.

You can keep yelling all you want, that doesn't mean you are correct.

[CrazyPro]

No, they wouldn't. There was no packet sniffing they did of 2000 era EQ servers, since they don't have a fucking time machine.

All their packet sniffing came from Alkabor, a PLANES OF POWER era server. What do you not understand about this still?

You are wrong. Stop trying to argue that you're not.

I don't think there were any changes that affected melee damage output in Luclin or PoP.

A level 60 in PoP with no AAs hitting a mob should do the same damage as they would in velious.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't think there were any changes that affected melee damage output in Luclin or PoP.

A level 60 in PoP with no AAs hitting a mob should do the same damage as they would in velious.

The base code for melee is indeed quite simple. All of the extra stuff like AA's don't directly change the base code, it usually just modifies the results, like adding extra damage or whatever. I don't think they did sweeping changes to the base melee code between classic and PoP.

[Zuranthium]

I don't think there were any changes that affected melee damage output in Luclin or PoP.

I'm not sure about those eras, except there was a Monk nerf during that time, but there were changes pre-Luclin.

[Ripqozko]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/33 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/373 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/1239 (0%)
+ Life: 7/1718 (0%)
```

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I took another look at Zuranthium's evidence he posted:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010721115457/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=

This was posted on Sept 8, 2000, which was before the Twig Nerf. That was Sept 19, 2000:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000919.html

The poster is a 46 Warrior, with a damage bonus of 7. That is the same damage bonus as P99/EQEMU code for a level 46. The pattern of most hits showing up at (9 * 2) + 7 = 25 is also what P99/EQEMU code does. This is because there is a chance to only use the Weapon Damage * (D20 Roll / 10) damage value. You do not always apply the percentage roll that can adjust your damage to be higher than Weapon Damage * 2.

If the damage bonus or damage formula was different from P99/EQEMU while Twig was available, it wasn't different a week before the nerf. You'd have to show a point in time where the damage bonus and/or formula was different from P99/EQEMU code while twig was not nerfed.

[Zuranthium]

The link was missing a '1' at the end - http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

The distribution of hits on P99 is not the same as that graph. P99 has less min hits and more hits in the higher range.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The link was missing a '1' at the end - http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

The distribution of hits on P99 is not the same as that graph. P99 has less min hits and more hits in the higher range.

P99 does have similar distributions. My DPS calculator does the same kind of distribution. I know exactly why this distribution occurs. You could test this yourself if you don't believe me. You just need to log in. Thank you for providing evidence that the damage bonus and damage formula are the same as EQEMU and P99 in the Twig time period.

[bcbrown]

P99 does have similar distributions. My DPS calculator does the same kind of distribution. I know exactly why this distribution occurs. You could test this yourself if you don't believe me. You just need to log in. Thank you for providing evidence that the damage bonus and damage formula are the same as EQEMU and P99 in the Twig time period.

Show us a distribution graph. All my distribution graphs are missing the spike at min value.

[Zuranthium]

P99 does have similar distributions.

No it doesn't. 80% of hits back then were falling in the lower range of the scale. That's not how it works here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Show us a distribution graph. All my distribution graphs are missing the spike at min value.

008: 079
009: 020
010: 026
011: 042
012: 059
013: 039
014: 045
015: 045
016: 067
017: 058
018: 048
019: 054
020: 045
021: 078
022: 051
023: 051
024: 056
025: 235
026: 037
027: 045
028: 029
029: 025
030: 027
031: 030
032: 025
033: 032
034: 023
035: 021

This is from my DPS calculator. It is a 46 Warrior using a 9/24 weapon against a level 40 mob. Left number is damage value, right number is how many times that damage value was rolled.

Same as this guy:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

[Zuranthium]

It's not the same. You're getting less minimum hits and more higher end hits, exactly as I already said.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's not the same. You're getting less minimum hits and more higher end hits, exactly as I already said.

I get the highest damage rolls at 8 damage, 21 damage, and 25 damage. The exact same places as your link. As I keep trying to tell you, the defense and AC of the mob are what change how the numbers are distributed. I don't have the exact mob this guy was fighting, so the numbers aren't going to perfectly align when I just throw a random mob in to test with.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

[Zuranthium]

I get highest numbers at 8 damage, 21 damage, and 25 damage.

The percentages are not the same. You should have more low hits.

the defense and AC are what change how the numbers are distributed.

They weren't fighting anything with high AC.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The percentages are not the same. You should have more low hits.



They weren't fighting anything with high AC.

This is fighting a harder mob using my DPS calculator. Level 46 Warrior with a 9/24 weapon:

008: 118 | 009: 021 | 010: 026 | 011: 037 | 012: 042 | 013: 029 | 014: 044 | 015: 031 | 016: 044 | 017: 044 |
| 018: 042 | 019: 044 | 020: 054 | 021: 062 | 022: 035 | 023: 037 | 024: 040 | 025: 133 | 026: 026 | 027: 032 |
| 028: 016 | 029: 013 | 030: 015 | 031: 011 | 032: 014 | 033: 009 | 034: 010 | 035: 007 |

http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

[bcbrown]

Very interesting... a while back I did a bunch of parses against Bloodmaw with my 51 ranger. I used three mainhands: Fellspine; Revultant Whip; Jagged Blade of Mourning, all with Infestation as offhand. I also parsed with the Woodsman's Staff. In all five of those parses, there's no spike at the lower level.

However when I looked at one of DSM's parses against the FM named giants, I did see spikes at the min value.

Not sure what to make of that yet.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Very interesting... a while back I did a bunch of parses against Bloodmaw with my 51 ranger. I used three mainhands: Fellspine; Revultant Whip; Jagged Blade of Mourning, all with Infestation as offhand. I also parsed with the Woodsman's Staff. In all five of those parses, there's no spike at the lower level.

However when I looked at one of DSM's parses against the FM named giants, I did see spikes at the min value.

Not sure what to make of that yet.

It is because you are fighting bloodmaw, who is like level 5. This is a 46 Warrior with a 9/24 weapon fighting a level 5:

| 013: 006 | 014: 016 | 015: 023 | 016: 025 | 017: 036 | 018: 047 | 019: 042 | 020: 047 | 021: 081 | 022: 063 |
| 023: 042 | 024: 055 | 025: 708 | 026: 093 | 027: 087 | 028: 087 | 029: 081 | 030: 083 | 031: 077 | 032: 063 |
| 033: 076 | 034: 076 | 035: 065 |

[bcbrown]

It is because you are fighting bloodmaw, who is like level 5.

That's what I thought at first, but here's Woody and Swarmcaller v Relik, who was a very tough fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's what I thought at first, but here's Woody and Swarmcaller v Relik, who was a very tough fight.

You are still getting more min damage hits than bloodmaw. You can see they are one of the higher values. I don't remember what level your ranger is, but if he's like 52 you have a good level gap. Also remember that some mobs have lower/higher AC than the average. That guy may just have lower AC than your normal level 40. Relik is using an unarmored dwarf graphic, so they may have lowered his AC to reflect that.

[bcbrown]

This is from my DPS calculator. It is a 46 Warrior using a 9/24 weapon against a level 40 mob. Left number is damage value, right number is how many times that damage value was rolled.

I could keep posting distributions without spikes at the min value but I'm curious about this one from your DPS calculator. What values did you use for player skill, mob ac, agility, defensive skill? I'd like to replicate this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I could keep posting distributions without spikes at the min value but I'm curious about this one from your DPS calculator. What values did you use for player skill, mob ac, agility, defensive skill? I'd like to replicate this.

Sounds like you may be changing your opinion about my calculator.

There are two ways to use my calculator. You can either use autoscaling for skills on players and defensive stats on mobs, or you can manually input everything. By default autoscaling is turned on for ease of use. Autoscaling is a bit less accurate, but not significantly so.

You can turn off player skill autoscaling by setting scaleOffensiveSkillsByPlayerLevel to false.

You can turn off Mob autoscaling by setting scaleDefensiveValuesBasedOnMobLevel to false.

Please listen to how AC works this time. Based on this comment from the EQEMU Code:


According to the guild hall Combat Dummies, a level 50 classic EQ mob it should be ~115


And the Kunark Strategy Guide, which actually posted some rough estimates of AC for the Classic/Kunark Era mobs:

https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide.pdf

It seems like a level 50 Kunark mob has around 115 AC. That is the AC value I used for the level 50 FM giants, to confirm the DPS from my Monk parse matched my calculator:

https://youtu.be/Ub0bfwyKpE0?feature=shared

For all of the level 46 Warrior parses, the player had 100 STR/DEX, and no haste.

Autoscaling is also using this 115 AC value as the guide for how AC scales per level.

Please avoid using like 300 AC for a level 40 mob. I know the wiki says a lot of level 40 mobs have like 300 AC, but as far as I know those values were just scraped from out of era websites. Most if not all of the wiki AC values are probably wrong.

For Riposte/Parry/Dodge on the mob, just leave their skill at 1. From my parsing I noticed that mobs seem to do these less often, on P99 at least.

For the level 46 Warrior using the 9/24 weapon, I was just using autoscaling for both the player and the level 40 mob on the first parse I posted with the 79 min damage rolls.

For the second parse that had more min hits, which closely matched the Sept 2000 parse below, it was a manually tuned mob. It was like a level 40 Mob with 200 Defense Skill, 150 AGI, 120 AC, and 1 for Parry/Riposte/Dodge. Some mobs have higher AC than average according to the Kunark Guide. Frost Giants from Everfrost/Permafrost have like 120 AC, which is what I used as the harder mob.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010721115457/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=

For the Bloodmaw parse I just used autoscaling again for the player and mob. I set the mob to level 5.

Finally, remember that my DPS calculator is a fighting simulator. It uses RNG like the real game, so each time you use the calculator, the results will be a bit different.

Use this link for how to use the calculator:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3733560&postcount=41

[kjs86z2]

Dear diary,

Today I posted on elf sim boards til the wee hours of the morning.

I am always right.

Love,
Me

[Samoht]

They're so far off topic right now. DSM is pushing his DPS calculator in a thread about weapon hate. It's completely off topic and entirely irrelevant. Plus, it doesn't even work right.

Don't help him fix his derpiest calculator. It's not like he's going to give credit to testers and contributors.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They're so far off topic right now. DSM is pushing his DPS calculator in a thread about weapon hate. It's completely off topic and entirely irrelevant. Plus, it doesn't even work right.

Don't help him fix his derpiest calculator. It's not like he's going to give credit to testers and contributors.

I feel bad for Samoht. He wakes up every day just to post the same negative comments that aren't true. They won't change the post history, change reality, or discredit me. It is just pointless.

This is fighting a harder mob using my DPS calculator. Level 46 Warrior with a 9/24 weapon:

008: 118 | 009: 021 | 010: 026 | 011: 037 | 012: 042 | 013: 029 | 014: 044 | 015: 031 | 016: 044 | 017: 044 |
| 018: 042 | 019: 044 | 020: 054 | 021: 062 | 022: 035 | 023: 037 | 024: 040 | 025: 133 | 026: 026 | 027: 032 |
| 028: 016 | 029: 013 | 030: 015 | 031: 011 | 032: 014 | 033: 009 | 034: 010 | 035: 007 |

http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

My DPS calculator can generate very similar results to a parse from Sept 2000. Remember that this parse from Sept 2000 was used in an attempt to claim my DPS calculator cannot produce results showing the DPS of other weapons around the same time as Twig.

[Samoht]

They won't change the post history, change reality, or discredit me. It is just pointless.

You discredit yourself. What the post history shows is that you've managed to derail another thread with your offtopic nonsense and personal attacks. You were SO WRONG about the twig and yet you couldn't help yourself but keep posting more and more and more BULLSHIT trying to prove yourself right by inventing straw men and moving the goal posts. It's what you do in every thread.

But since you continue to insist, I need to point out that you already still call it "my DPS calculator" even though other people have had to fix major issues for you.

So thanks for proving me right.

The title of the thread I made already credits the EQEMU code I used. So this attack is simply false.

Go post in that thread. Keep your bullshit contained to one spot instead of spreading it all over.

My evidence disproves your claim. You can keep denying all you want. People can see the truth.

Your only evidence is your DPS calculator. One that time and time again has been proven to be just as wrong as you are. It is not a valid source.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What the post history shows is that you've really managed to derail another thread with your offtopic nonsense and personal attacks.

But since you continue to insist, I need to point out that you already still call it "my DPS calculator" even though other people have had to fix major issues for you.

So thanks for proving me right.

It sounds like Samoht has given up on claiming my DPS calculator doesn't work. It sounds like he wants to be a part of it now and get credit. Progress!

The title of the thread I made already credits the EQEMU code I used. So this attack is simply false.

[Zuranthium]

My DPS calculator can generate very similar results to a parse from Sept 2000.

No it can't, you're trying to artificially attack a higher AC target when that's not how the parses were done, and even while trying to attack something with higher AC you're still getting more hits for '26' and '27' than people in classic hitting lower AC targets.

P99 has never used the exact same numbers as what existed during classic, what do you not understand about that?

You were not playing back then. Stop trying to tell people who were playing back then what was happening. There's been other testimony linked as well. Low delay weapons were busted and that's why they completely changed Twig/Whip, instead of just making them not drop anymore.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No it can't, you're trying to artificially attack a higher AC target when that's not how the parses were done, and even while trying to attack something with higher AC you're still getting more hits for '26' and '27' than people in classic hitting lower AC targets.

P99 has never used the exact same numbers as what existed during classic, what do you not understand about that?


My evidence disproves your claim. You can keep denying all you want. People can see the truth.

This is fighting a harder mob using my DPS calculator. Level 46 Warrior with a 9/24 weapon:

008: 118 | 009: 021 | 010: 026 | 011: 037 | 012: 042 | 013: 029 | 014: 044 | 015: 031 | 016: 044 | 017: 044 |
| 018: 042 | 019: 044 | 020: 054 | 021: 062 | 022: 035 | 023: 037 | 024: 040 | 025: 133 | 026: 026 | 027: 032 |
| 028: 016 | 029: 013 | 030: 015 | 031: 011 | 032: 014 | 033: 009 | 034: 010 | 035: 007 |

http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

This web archive post was your own evidence. Thanks for providing it!


You were not playing back then.

I played from 1999-2005. It is weird you just asserted this randomly without knowing.

[Samoht]

I played from 1999-2005. It is weird you just asserted this randomly without knowing.

It only makes sense because you have no idea what's going on.

People can look at my evidence. People can look at your posts without evidence. They can decide who is more credible.

Remind me what this has to do with threat of twig? You're just spamming offtopic nonsense. Why are you still posting here?

You can stop posting off-topic nonsense about me and my calculator at any time. There is no reason for you to do it. For threat on twig, I made a post on page 1:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3741675&postcount=7

Your first post in this thread had nothing to do with Twig:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742046&postcount=32

Okay, but you're still spamming the thread with nonsense, why? You're not proving anything that wasn't already proven 25 years ago. Your DPS calculator is the only thing worse than your contribution to this thread. They nerfed twig because it didn't work with 56k modems! Jesus christ, man, get a grip. Move on and stop posting this bullshit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It only makes sense because you have no idea what's going on.

People can look at my evidence. People can look at your posts without evidence. They can decide who is more credible.

This is fighting a harder mob using my DPS calculator. Level 46 Warrior with a 9/24 weapon:

008: 118 | 009: 021 | 010: 026 | 011: 037 | 012: 042 | 013: 029 | 014: 044 | 015: 031 | 016: 044 | 017: 044 |
| 018: 042 | 019: 044 | 020: 054 | 021: 062 | 022: 035 | 023: 037 | 024: 040 | 025: 133 | 026: 026 | 027: 032 |
| 028: 016 | 029: 013 | 030: 015 | 031: 011 | 032: 014 | 033: 009 | 034: 010 | 035: 007 |

http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1


Remind me what this has to do with threat of twig? You're just spamming offtopic nonsense. Why are you still posting here?

You can stop posting off-topic nonsense about me and my calculator at any time. There is no reason for you to do it. For Twig threat, I made a post on page 1:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3741675&postcount=7

Your first post in this thread had nothing to do with Twig. You just really like talking about my DPS calculator!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742046&postcount=32

Samoht always wants the last word. He will edit his comment above with nonsense I am sure. The post history still shows the truth.

[questever]

Yeah....But he's George Clooney. So I have to side with him.

[Zuranthium]

My evidence disproves your claim. You can keep denying all you want. People can see the truth.

Your evidence proves you're wrong. You are getting more hits in the higher range and less min hits. You only had 5% min hits before switching to a higher AC parse, and still only 11% in that instance. In Kunark era over 80% of hits were falling in the lower range of the scale, on a normal low AC target, and 15+% were min hits.

[Snaggles]

Despite the norm, not every response to every thread has to be annoying.

Answer the question and move on. It’s becoming obvious few people are attempting to solve problems and prefer to posture with other blowhards.

Is the MCT a good aggro weapon in 2025? No
Is it a good Monk dps weapon in 2025? lol, no

See? Pretty easy and not nuanced at all. Legacy weapon sucks.
Unlike the BFG. Start a thread about that one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your evidence proves you're wrong. You are getting more hits in the higher range and less min hits. You only had 5% min hits before switching to a higher AC parse, and still only 11% in that instance. In Kunark era over 80% of hits were falling in the lower range of the scale, on a normal low AC target, and 15+% were min hits.

Here is the Sept 8, 2000 parse again, supplied by Zuranthium. This was more than a week before the Sept 19, 2000 Twig nerf:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010709185344/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=1

I converted the data from that post into a new graph, as well as the data from my DPS calculator. I did this so the graph style is the same for both data sets. This makes for easier viewing.

People can take a look at both graphs in the attachment section and come to their own conclusions. If your argument is simply that each parse is not 100% identical, that is a silly argument. People who have done parses know you aren't always going to get the exact number of swings, damage value rolls, double attacks, etc. in two different parses.

People can read the Kunark Strategy Guide and see that 120 AC is not raid-target levels of AC:

https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide/EverQuest_The_Ruins_of_Kunark--Revised_Expanded_Prima_Official_eGuide.pdf

This was the data used in the DPS calculator:


A level 46 Warrior with a 9/24 Weapon in main hand with 100 STR using level appropriate skill levels.
vs.
A level 40 Mob with 200 Defense Skill, 150 AGI, 130 AC, and 1 for Parry/Riposte/Dodge.


I don't think the OP of the Sept 8, 2000 parse said what mob(s) he was parsing against.

[loramin]

Despite the norm, not every response to every thread has to be annoying.

Answer the question and move on. It’s becoming obvious few people are attempting to solve problems and prefer to posture with other blowhards.

Is the MCT a good aggro weapon in 2025? No
Is it a good Monk dps weapon in 2025? lol, no

See? Pretty easy and not nuanced at all. Legacy weapon sucks.
Unlike the BFG. Start a thread about that one.

In normal conversations, one person says something another disagrees with, and then they communicate until one changes their opinion, based on what they learned from the other ... or until they both agree to disagree.

But to DSM, both those outcomes are an anathema. Once he starts one of his many forum fights, he will do everything he can to "win that fight" in his mind, no matter how incorrect his position is (including quite literally spamming the thread so that he always has the last word).

That means he NEVER listens to others or changes his opinion based on new information, and it also means he'll never settle for "we both agree to disagree" (because that would mean he didn't "win"). As a result, every thread where people have reasonable disagreements with DSM will always end this same way: DSM is almost robotic in how predictably he behaves.

(And of course, many posters here have cherished positions that they argue over; the difference with DSM, and the reason he regularly creates 100+ page threads when no one else does, is that he is uniquely extreme in this regard, even for this forum.)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In normal conversations, one person says something another disagrees with, and then they communicate until one changes their opinion, based on what they learned from the other ... or until they both agree to disagree.

But to DSM, both those outcomes are an anathema. Once he starts one of his many forum fights, he will do everything he can to "win that fight" in his mind, no matter how incorrect his position is (including quite literally spamming the thread so that he always has the last word).

That means he NEVER listens to others or changes his opinion based on new information, and it also means he'll never settle for "we both agree to disagree" (because that would mean he didn't "win"). As a result, every thread where people have reasonable disagreements with DSM will always end this same way: DSM is almost robotic in how predictably he behaves.

(And of course, many posters here have cherished positions that they argue over; the difference with DSM, and the reason he regularly creates 100+ page threads when no one else does, is that he is uniquely extreme in this regard, even for this forum.)

I have already rebutted all of Loramin's lies in this exact thread lol. I will simply repost the link:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3749444&postcount=78

Loramin is just spamming random threads with the same nonsense, because he cannot win a debate with facts and logic. He is mad that he could not supply evidence to support one of his postions, and I called him out on it. He's been on a crusade ever since.

Just to be clear, Loramin is a wiki admin actively breaking the forum rules by posting this.

I was hoping he would calm down after he put me on ignore. But as you can see he still cannot let go. I guess we will get more of the same spam from Loramin in the future.

[loramin]

This message is hidden because DeathsSilkyMist is on your ignore list.

[Zuranthium]

People can read the Kunark Strategy Guide

LOL. How about no.

People who have done parses know you aren't always going to get the exact number of swings, damage value rolls, double attacks, etc. in two different parses.

There were many parses done back then. They all brought the same conclusion. Hence why raiders were upset about Twig/Whip. Hence why it was changed.

The code on p99 is not the same as it was back then. Your first parse with only 5% chance of min hit shows how different things are. Min hit chance was 15+% back then, on the weakest targets possible.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

LOL. How about no.



There were many parses done back then. They all brought the same conclusion. Hence why raiders were upset about Twig/Whip. Hence why it was changed.

The code on p99 is not the same as it was back then. Your first parse with only 5% chance of min hit shows how different things are. Min hit chance was 15+% back then, on the weakest targets possible.

People can compare the graphs in the linked post below:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750062&postcount=167

Clearly the P99/EQEMU damage formulas and the Sept 2000 Live damage formulas (from before the Twig nerf) are the same or very similar. The graphs show this. The graphs also show my DPS calculator is correct.

Unless you have some more data to share, you have been defeated. There is no reason to keep doubling down by simply claiming I am wrong without evidence.

[Zuranthium]

Clearly the P99/EQEMU damage formulas and the Sept 2000 Live damage formulas (from before the Twig nerf) are the same or very similar. The graphs show this.

No the graphs don't show that. Make of a graph of your first parse against the lower AC target, which is the actual relevant number.

Not to mention, the thousands of people who played back then are more relevant than your rambling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No the graphs don't show that. Make of a graph of your first parse against the lower AC target, which is the actual relevant number.

Not to mention, the thousands of people who played back then are more relevant than your rambling.

No. I showed my DPS calculator data already here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750062&postcount=167

You don't know the AC of the target(s) the Sept 2000 parse had. You cannot claim you do.

Everybody with eyes can compare the graphs and see you are wrong. If you have more evidence, please show it. Otherwise you have been defeated.

[Zuranthium]

You don't know the AC of the target(s) the Sept 2000 parse had.

Again, there were TONS of parses done back then, on all kinds of trash MOBs. And tons of discussion across various forums, where people specifically tested different weapons. You wouldn't know since you weren't around.

Your data shows you are wrong. A mere 5% chance of min hit is not something that was happening back then. But keep spamming like you always do.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again, there were TONS of parses done back then, on all kinds of trash MOBs. And tons of discussion across various forums, where people specifically tested different weapons. You wouldn't know since you weren't around.

Your data shows you are wrong. A mere 5% chance of min hit is not something that was happening back then. But keep spamming like you always do.

People can look at the two very similar graphs in this post and decide who is more credible:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750062&postcount=167

I played from 1999-2005.

[CrazyPro]

I ran out of popcorn can we stop this discourse until I can go buy some more real quick?

[Samoht]

I ran out of popcorn can we stop this discourse until I can go buy some more real quick?

Can you PROVE that you're out of popcorn or are you just going to spam that you have a popcorn meter that uses an incorrect calculation to show us the volume that your popcorn bowl can hold?

[Zuranthium]

People can look at the two very similar graphs

No what they can look at is this post, from before you artificially changed your numbers - https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3749904&postcount=144. Even in your fake parse where you tried to parse against a more difficult MOB, it's still a lower amount of min hits than what was happening back in 2000 on easier targets.

Another relevant thing is parses done with the 5/14 Revulant Whip pre-Kunark, which was already matching the DPS of the best two-handers in the game on game on its own. The twig and whip in Kunark exceeded that weapon and could be used by more classes, quickly leading to the outcry about how they were making every other weapon in the game obsolete.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No what they can look at is this post, from before you artificially changed your numbers - https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3749904&postcount=144. Even in your fake parse where you tried to parse against a more difficult MOB, it's still a lower amount of min hits than what was happening back in 2000 on easier targets.

Another relevant thing is parses done with the 5/14 Revulant Whip pre-Kunark, which was already matching the DPS of the best two-handers in the game on game on its own. The twig and whip in Kunark exceeded that weapon and could be used by more classes, quickly leading to the outcry about how they were making every other weapon in the game obsolete.

I didn't "artificially change my numbers" or do a "fake parse". You are just making things up. The first parse was a quick guess. A shot from the hip, and it still shows spikes at 8 damage, 21 damage, and 25 damage. That parse doesn't help you, it helps me.

My second parse, which was used in the graph, had a more accurate AC value.

My calculator is open source, and I told you what the values I used were. You can use my calculator and confirm it yourself. The link to my calculator is in my signature.

We can keep going back and forth. At the end of the day I have evidence, and you don't people can look at the graphs and decide for themselves.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750062&postcount=167

[Samoht]

I didn't "artificially change my numbers" or do a "fake parse". You are just making things up. The first parse was a quick guess. A shot from the hip, and it still shows spikes at 8 damage, 21 damage, and 25 damage. That parse doesn't help you, it helps me.

So, it's not a fake parse, it's a... fake.. parse? Do you even read what you post?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So, it's not a fake parse, it's a... fake.. parse? Do you even read what you post?

Neither parse is fake. They are both outputs from my DPS calculator. You can double check the results yourself. I told you the parameters. But we know you won't, because you are scared to admit you are wrong.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3749932&postcount=154

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750062&postcount=167

But any output from your DPS calculator is going to be a fake parse. It's not a real source.

People can use my DPS calculator themselves. It doesn't matter how many times you lie about it. You are still wrong.


Also, please remind me what this has to do with the threat of moss covered twig? You're just spamming more nonsense and bullshit.

You can stop spamming the thread with lies at any time.

[Samoht]

Neither parse is fake. They are both outputs from my DPS calculator. You can double check the results yourself. I told you the parameters. But we know you won't, because you are scared to admit you are wrong.

But any output from your DPS calculator is going to be a fake parse. It's not a real source.

People can use my DPS calculator themselves. It doesn't matter how many times you lie about it. You are still wrong.

The only lie I see is where you said the numbers were made up but then said it was a legit parse. You got caught in another lie, and it looks like you're trying to dodge it, again. And ultimately, any output from your calculator is illegitimate. It is not a real parse because it is not a parse from the game. You need to quit trying to pass your bullshit made up numbers as real numbers and then lying about it.

Also, please remind me what this has to do with the threat of moss covered twig? You're just spamming more nonsense and bullshit.

You can stop spamming the thread with lies at any time.

Love how you refuse to address the actual lies you post when you get called out. You just pretend like you never said it.

[Zuranthium]

The first parse was a quick guess.

You said your first parse was against a Level 40 MOB. Already a more difficult MOB than many parses done in 1999/2000.

it still shows spikes at 8 damage, 21 damage, and 25 damage.

That doesn't equate to being the same percentage. No matter what you try to say, you are getting less min hits and more upper range hits than what was actually happening back then.

For those who are interested in the actual accurate history of Everquest, and as has already been linked in the thread by other sources who described the situation (which you continue to ignore), the Twig and Whip during those days were BIS and caused an uproar that caused them to be nerfed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said your first parse was against a Level 40 MOB. Already a more difficult MOB than many parses done in 1999/2000.

Again, you don't know what mobs the 46 Warrior parsed. They didn't say. You need to stop claiming you do know.

People can look at this post and decide for themselves who is more credible:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750062&postcount=167