Hit point vs. Mana point gearing on a Manna Robe Magician

[Balimon]

So I've been wondering for some time how to best gear my magician in a Velious locked server. For raiding, for the few mage mains left, everyone acquires a Manna robe eventually. This is the only way to increase mana regen without the aid of others and it's also an extremely convenient way to reset the spell recast timer on Call of the Hero(CoTH). It has a 12 second cast time with a 15 second recast time, using a Manna robe with a 3 second cast time allows for perfect chain casting of CoTH without counting.

Once someone has a Manna robe, hit points are suddenly way more valuable for obvious reasons, so I began to wonder if gearing for hit points is preferable to mana points after a certain plateau is reached mana wise. My theory is that after 3500 mana, hit points are better even though the HP to MP ratio is 3 to 1. After reading a long thread with two nerdy folks arguing over how to calculate proc chance, DoT proc effectiveness, and overall DPS, I realized there was someone who might be able to help answer my question. He was kind enough to agree to help out provided I make the discussion public so here we go:

Some references for those who are interested:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Call_of_the_hero

https://wiki.project1999.com/Manna_Robe

A breakdown of how to use the Manna robe:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kurrat%27s_all_in_one_Magician_Guide#Kunark_Chase

An essay I wrote last year on the topic (yes I am that nerdy!):

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kurrat%27s_all_in_one_Magician_Guide#Hammered_Gold en_Loops.2C_Hit_points.2C_and_the_existential_ques tions_of_the_universe

My HP/MP in my best gear and shield of the magi:

2053/3795

Manna Robe and HP gear and shield of the magi:

2030/3551

[Balimon]

Forgot to add raid buffed stats with Manna robe and Z-Heart:

3345/3701

[Snaggles]

I don’t think it’s going to change how most people gear.

As a casual or semi-casual you will shoot for mana and have marginal hps.
With some BiS or near BiS hps pick up in a huge way. The bottleneck is the quality gear, not so much the strategy.

A mage calling for spots, twitches, and bards can effectively coth forever. If you are looking to maximize your mana without any help from anyone, farm some Mystic Cloak’s and Serpent Blood potions. I think having SoW pots, DA stuff, and planning ahead will get most people to about 95% the mage raid capacity. Its part of the reason the class is great.

[bcbrown]

I'm going to split my thoughts on addressing this question over a couple of posts. This first post is essentially a stream-of-consciousness where I was trying to figure out how to structure my thinking on how to answer this question. The next post will be written to try to explain what conclusion I reached and how I reached it, so if you're not interested in the details it's safe to skip this post.

Max mana/hp matters in the tough fights where you're gonna end up almost oom/low-health at the end of the encounter. For a healer, it lets you sustain a healing chain longer. For a nuker, it lets you keep nuking non-stop for longer. So when deciding whether a slot should add X mana or Y health, the question becomes, what lets me sustain my max mana burn for longer? Neither mana nor health will let you burn mana faster.

So the question I'll try to answer is "using a manna robe, how do you maximize the time before hitting oom while burning mana at a constant rate."

If you're burning 500mana/minute, adding 500 mana gives you another minute of casting. Since manna robe converts 60hp->20m, 1500hp gives you another minute of casting. But this doesn't take into account passive mana regeneration, canni dancing, or passive hp regeneration. I'm going to refer to using manna robe as "canni", as it's similar to shaman cannibalization line.

To calculate how long you can burn, you need to know:
mana/minute burn rate: call it burn
total mana pool: call it pool
passive mana regeneration: call it passive
total hp available to canni: call it hp
canni burn rate in hp/minute: call it canni_burn
canni regen rate in mana/minute: call it canni_regen

simplest equation:
time = pool / burn, for example 3500 mana / (500 mana/minute) = 7 minutes. As a sidenote, the most important error-checking in calculations is dimensional analysis: mana divided by (mana/minute) gives you minutes, the right dimension you want to end up with. If you keep track of the units for each number, you can confirm that everything cancels out except the unit/dimension you're trying to calculate, time in this case.

Without manna robe:

total mana regen = time * passive
time = (pool + regen) / burn
time = (pool + time * passive) / burn
time = pool/burn + time * passive / burn
time - time * passive / burn = pool/burn
time * (1 - passive/burn) = pool/burn
time = (pool/burn) / (1 - passive/burn)

1 - passive/burn = (burn - passive) / burn

time = (pool/burn) * burn/(burn - passive)

time = pool/(burn - passive)

This makes sense. Effective burn rate equals actual burn rate minus mana regeneration

When adding manna robe, we can skip a lot of steps and just go to the last equation, adding canni regen:

time_to_oom = pool/(burn - passive - canni_regen)

or, if we define total_regen = passive + canni_regen, we have:
time_to_oom = pool/(burn - total_regen)

the other equation that matters is how long you can sustain canni:

time_to_low_health = hp / canni_burn

So, you want to ensure you have enough health to sustain canni until you hit oom.

Next, let's look at some of the regen rates. At 60, 21 mana/tick while medding gives you 210 mana/minute. 3.2 seconds per cast gives you 18.75 casts/minute, or 375 mana/minute with 1125 health/minute

With some rough numbers, we can start with a 3500 mana pool, 500 mana/minute burn rate, and maybe 2000 health to burn. That gives us 7 minutes before oom without manna robe, and perhaps two minutes of canni that can add 750mana, or another minute and a half of burn, getting us to 8.5 minutes. So clearly, we'll burn through all the health we feel safe burning before going oom.

Since that's the case, the encounter can be split into two sections. For the first few minutes we're going to canni down until we're at whatever low-hp threshold we're comfortable with. After that, we'll mostly med, adding a couple canni clicks as passive hp regen builds up.

The time spent canni-ing will be hp / canni_burn. During that period, the burn rate will be burn - passive - canni_regen. After that period and discounting passive hp regen, the burn rate will be burn - passive.

Passive hp regen will be 29 hp/tick or about one canni every other click.

[Ripqozko]

I'll never wear a mana robe, all that really matters is having a pool high enough in a competitive environment to get 8 coths off (4k pool) , rest is up to necros and bards to do the additional coths. Clicking the robe is ass but I wish ya well. I'm of the opinion to gear for a solid mana pool then survivability for DAing as you can live taking a few hits lots of times.

[Jimjam]

Can’t you pick up skin like nature / regrowth to help recover?

If you get below 50% hp just do a bandage while you cast coth? It has enough time.

[bcbrown]

Let's try to put it all together now. We're going to continue to ignore the time spent casting the spells that are burning mana. We're going to assume that as long as you have health to burn, you'll be canni-dancing the manna robe. Once you've burned through the health you have to burn, you'll canni-dance to match your passive health regen. We'll write equations in terms of ticks, and calculate how many ticks until you run out of mana. Mana burn will be guestimated at 500 mana/minute or 50 mana/tick. For explanatory purposes we'll assume 3500 mana and 2000 health to burn - meaning that after you've burned through 2000 health you're at 20% or whatever safe minimum threshold you've chosen. For now we won't worry about the casting time of the spells that burn mana; it's just a constant 50 mana/tick drain.

At the end of this post we'll have equations for mana burn rate and health burn rate before and after you've burned through all extra health. In the next post we'll take those equations, solve for the time until zero mana, and answer the question initially asked: If you want to add hp or mana to extend the time until out of mana, what's the relative exchange rate between the two?

We have a couple of equations to juggle:
h(t) is current health after t ticks have passed
m(t) is current mana after t ticks have passed

Balimor explains the regen options here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Kurrat%27s_all_in_one_Magician_Guide#Hammered_Gold en_Loops.2C_Hit_points.2C_and_the_existential_ques tions_of_the_universe, but we'll just assume 29 hp/tick from regrowth, z-heart, phantom armor, and standing regen. Since manna robe costs 60 health, that means the steady state after we've burned all the health we can is one click every other tick. Since two ticks regens 58 health we're close enough.

In the first phase, we'll canni-dance the manna robe until we run out of health:
each tick, you'll burn 60 hp, regen 29, and start at 2000 hp, so:
h(t) = 2000 - 60t + 29t = 2000 - 31t
And each tick we're assuming a mana burn of 50, while a manna robe click each tick gets us 20 mana for an adjusted burn rate of 30 mana per tick - note that this isn't accounting for medding mana regen yet.
m(t) = 3500 - 50t + 20t = 3500 - 30t

total ticks in the first phase:
h(t) = 0 = 2000 - 31t
t = 2000/31 = 64.5 ticks

If you graph h(t) you'll see a straight line with a value of 2000 at ticks=0, and a value of 0 at ticks=64.5
If you graph m(t) you'll see a straight line with a value of 3500 at t=0, and a value of 1565 at t=64.5

In the second phase you'll click manna robe every other tick
h(t) = starting health + 29t - 30t = starting health -1t ; we're just not going to worry about losing one health per tick
m(t) = starting mana - 50t + 10t = starting mana - 40t

[Balimon]

I don’t think it’s going to change how most people gear.

As a casual or semi-casual you will shoot for mana and have marginal hps.
With some BiS or near BiS hps pick up in a huge way. The bottleneck is the quality gear, not so much the strategy.

A mage calling for spots, twitches, and bards can effectively coth forever. If you are looking to maximize your mana without any help from anyone, farm some Mystic Cloak’s and Serpent Blood potions. I think having SoW pots, DA stuff, and planning ahead will get most people to about 95% the mage raid capacity. Its part of the reason the class is great.

You're not wrong, I'm just thinking beyond all that. On green when I still raided, I spent hours and hours clicking the robe and wondering how to optimize my character.

[Ripqozko]

You're not wrong, I'm just thinking beyond all that. On green when I still raided, I spent hours and hours clicking the robe and wondering how to optimize my character.

Have you quaded? Id start there, by far the best thing we can do to help raids.

[Toxigen]

if you aint quaddin you aint mage'in

[Ripqozko]

if you aint quaddin you aint mage'in

Yup this

[Balimon]

Have you quaded? Id start there, by far the best thing we can do to help raids.

Yup

[Jimjam]

if you aint quaddin you aint mage'in

Is that the contemporary term for Spergin DAs in raids? These days I only do level 1-10.

[bcbrown]

So far, we have health and mana equations for the two phases; first you have enough health to canni-dance the manna robe every tick, then once you run out of surplus health you click every other tick as passive health regen builds up.
First phase:
h(t) = 2000 - 60t + 29t = 2000 - 31t
m(t) = 3500 - 50t + 20t = 3500 - 30t
Second phase:
h(t) = starting health + 29t - 30t = starting health - 1t ; we're just not going to worry about losing one health per tick
m(t) = mana when starting phase two - 50t + 10t = mana when starting phase two - 40t

In order to get the right starting mana value when starting phase two, we need to calculate when the first phase ends, which is when h(t) = 0:
h(t) = 0 = 2000 - 31t
t = 2000/31 = 64.5 ticks

After 64.5 ticks, mana will be:
m(t) = 3500 - 30 * 64.5 = 1565
Or using variables:
t = health_to_burn / 31
m(t) = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31)

Where 30 is the modified mana burn rate (50 mana burned per tick, 20 mana regained from manna robe), and 31 is the modified health burn rate (60 mana burned per robe click, 29 mana regained through passive regen)

So we can rewrite the mana equation for the second phase to take into account how much mana you've spent at the end of phase one

m(t) = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31) - (t - health_to_burn / 31) * 40

Now we can solve for the time when we hit oom:
0 = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31) - (t - health_to_burn / 31) * 40
(t - health_to_burn / 31) * 40 = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31)
40t - 40/31 * health_to_burn = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31)
40t = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31) + 40/31 * health_to_burn
40t = 3500 - 30/31 * health_to_burn + 40/31 * health_to_burn
40t = 3500 + 10/31 * health_to_burn
t = 3500/40 + 10/(31*40) * health_to_burn
t = 3500/40 + 10/(1240) * health_to_burn
t = 3500/40 + health_to_burn / 124

So under these assumptions, to add an additional tick before you run out of mana you can either add 40 mana or 124 health.

In the final section, I'll convert the raw numbers back into variables so it's easier to play around with the assumptions to see how it changes this conversion rate.

[bcbrown]

Although converting variables into numbers can make the calculations easier to follow, it will ultimately be more helpful to have a final equation where everything is a variable, so you can plug in different health regen rates, for example, to see how that will change the conclusions. Let's start with the first equation from the section above:
0 = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31) - (t - health_to_burn / 31) * 40
30 is the mana burn rate in the first section: 50 - 20, or mana_burn - mana_regen
31 is the health burn rate: 60 - 29, or health_burn - health_regen
40 is the mana burn rate in the second section: 50 - 10, because we're only clicking the robe once every other tick, since each two ticks we will regain 58 health.

Putting these variables back in we get:
0 = starting_mana - (mana_burn - mana_regen_one) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) - (t - health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) * (mana_burn - mana_regen_two)

We can unify the mana regen rates by observing that the mana regen in phase two is equivalent to the mana gain from clicking the robe scaled by how many ticks it takes to regain the 60 health cost:
mana_regen_two = 20 * health_regen / 60 = robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health
mana_regen_one = robe_mana

this gives us:
0 = starting_mana - (mana_burn - robe_mana) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) - (t - health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) * (mana_burn - robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health))

I'm not going to try to simplify that, but I will plot the graph of mana over time with Python:

def mana(
t,
starting_mana=3500,
mana_burn=50,
robe_mana=20,
health_to_burn=2000,
health_burn=60,
health_regen=29,
robe_health=60
):
if t < health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen):
return starting_mana - (mana_burn - robe_mana) * t
mana_spent_phase_one = (mana_burn - robe_mana) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen)
mana_spent_phase_two = (t - health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen)) * (mana_burn - robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health)
return starting_mana - mana_spent_phase_one - mana_spent_phase_two

import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
import numpy as np

# Generate x values (time)
t_values = np.linspace(0, 110, 100) # Adjust range as needed

# Calculate corresponding mana values
mana_values = [mana(t) for t in t_values]

# Plot the graph
plt.plot(t_values, mana_values)
plt.xlabel('Time')
plt.ylabel('Mana')
plt.title('Mana Over Time')
plt.grid(True)
plt.show()


Adding more mana shifts the whole graph upwards, extending the time until mana=0. Adding more health lengthens the first part of the graph.

If you have a Google account you can play around with the assumptions here: https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1tla-XkXMbj4GVsSw9o1m-V63t_ZbFnYw?usp=sharing

One final note: although I'm assuming canni-dancing the manna robe, I'm not taking into account of medding for mana regen. If you'd like to so do, you can just adjust the mana burn rate per tick to account for that.

[Ripqozko]

DSM has returned to the forums

[Zuranthium]

if you aint quaddin you aint mage'in

A very dumb mechanic that makes no thematic sense for a Summoner class.

Trying to kite raid trash won't work when my patch gets implemented. They will have half a brain and start ignoring the kiter and attack the raid. A bunch of MOB's will also only spawn when the main raid target is attacked, and remain leashed to them; it will be impossible to clear everything before initiating a raid encounter. The rise of offtanks. Mages will be summoning a bunch of pets to push huge DPS. That is their role.

[Ripqozko]

A very dumb mechanic that makes no thematic sense for a Summoner class.

Trying to kite raid trash won't work when my patch gets implemented. They will have half a brain and start ignoring the kiter and attack the raid. A bunch of MOB's will also only spawn when the main raid target is attacked, and remain leashed to them; it will be impossible to clear everything before initiating a raid encounter. The rise of offtanks. Mages will be summoning a bunch of pets to push huge DPS. That is their role.

You play on red, no one really to kite trash for. Hope that helps.

[Zuranthium]

God you're so obtuse and lack reading comprehension. Also, there are people on Red and I don't play there.

[loramin]

God you're so obtuse and lack reading comprehension

But that witty quip let him forget about how much he hates himself for 2 whole seconds! Who cares if it made no sense?

[Ripqozko]

But that witty quip let him forget about how much he hates himself for 2 whole seconds! Who cares if it made no sense?

You are better off staying on the wiki

[Duik]

Simple question promotes...
Hate filled SYDG and IHTH bullshit responses are the best sort of responses.

[Snaggles]

With a manna robe…

A single Mystic Cloak is 1k mana worth of runes.
Every 9 click of worts is worth about 900 mana
Every 4 Serpent Blood potions is worth 666 mana.


Strictly as a mana battery, mana and hp gear. FT gear. Be sure to get ench buffs. Be sure to get a bard. Be sure to bug necros. Get an anchor who isn’t asleep at the wheel.

If you are needing to move bodies fast you need organization of who to coth and more mage bodies. More mana and tricks always helps but it’s good to stick to the stuff that will make or break you.

Good conversation OP :) I’ll get a robe someday!

[shovelquest]

What do you really gain by having a mage furiously generating mana in the corner over there?

[Snaggles]

What do you really gain by having a mage furiously generating mana in the corner over there?

More of these in the same amount of time

https://wiki.project1999.com/Call_of_the_Hero

[shovelquest]

More of these in the same amount of time

https://wiki.project1999.com/Call_of_the_Hero

I sit around waiting for a COTH group invite for like 10 minuets half the time I raiding in this game.

[Ripqozko]

good luck to yall with all that, if you want to move a whole raid fast you stack more necros. all i care about is the few fights where its competitive to coth quickly, rest doesnt matter if its .2 sec slower waiting on a necro to pump me. the competitive ones only your pool matters, after the first 5-8 coths you either won or didnt.

[shovelquest]

Mage trying to mage-ana-dance while answering tells from 40 different players in the raid:

https://i.imgur.com/pkAXlLi.gif

[Duik]

I Love Luclin. That was a great show.

[Toxigen]

A very dumb mechanic that makes no thematic sense for a Summoner class.

Trying to kite raid trash won't work when my patch gets implemented. They will have half a brain and start ignoring the kiter and attack the raid. A bunch of MOB's will also only spawn when the main raid target is attacked, and remain leashed to them; it will be impossible to clear everything before initiating a raid encounter. The rise of offtanks. Mages will be summoning a bunch of pets to push huge DPS. That is their role.

oh cool didn't realize you were on the dev team and have RogBog convinced this will be great for p99

[Salaryman]

all these nerdy graphs and charts just steal a manastone and play on RED99

[Duik]

Better dead than red.

[Vivitron]

I have only bot maged, but mana over hp seems right to me. Being able to cast an extra coth from fm is a nice win for stabilizing coth engages.

I have a manna robe on my enchanter. If the raid needs me to have mana ASAP I can often get twitches or at least spot heals to cover robe clicks, so max hp isn't typically a major concern for that purpose. (That said he's hp geared for charming already, and enchanters aren't magicians.)

Counterpoint: I have survived a hit while quadding. It's rare to get hit and rarer still for gear to make a difference, but saving a quad would be big.

[Ripqozko]

I have only bot maged, but mana over hp seems right to me. Being able to cast an extra coth from fm is a nice win for stabilizing coth engages.

I have a manna robe on my enchanter. If the raid needs me to have mana ASAP I can often get twitches or at least spot heals to cover robe clicks, so max hp isn't typically a major concern for that purpose. (That said he's hp geared for charming already, and enchanters aren't magicians.)

Counterpoint: I have survived a hit while quadding. It's rare to get hit and rarer still for gear to make a difference, but saving a quad would be big.

gear makes a difference for that last statement, i made sure i had a 4k mana pool then i stacked resists and such for survivability. rest doesnt really matter.

[shovelquest]

Better dead than red.

https://i.imgur.com/ox0SLI8.png

[Balimon]

Although converting variables into numbers can make the calculations easier to follow, it will ultimately be more helpful to have a final equation where everything is a variable, so you can plug in different health regen rates, for example, to see how that will change the conclusions. Let's start with the first equation from the section above:
0 = 3500 - 30 * (health_to_burn / 31) - (t - health_to_burn / 31) * 40
30 is the mana burn rate in the first section: 50 - 20, or mana_burn - mana_regen
31 is the health burn rate: 60 - 29, or health_burn - health_regen
40 is the mana burn rate in the second section: 50 - 10, because we're only clicking the robe once every other tick, since each two ticks we will regain 58 health.

Putting these variables back in we get:
0 = starting_mana - (mana_burn - mana_regen_one) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) - (t - health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) * (mana_burn - mana_regen_two)

We can unify the mana regen rates by observing that the mana regen in phase two is equivalent to the mana gain from clicking the robe scaled by how many ticks it takes to regain the 60 health cost:
mana_regen_two = 20 * health_regen / 60 = robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health
mana_regen_one = robe_mana

this gives us:
0 = starting_mana - (mana_burn - robe_mana) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) - (t - health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen) * (mana_burn - robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health))

I'm not going to try to simplify that, but I will plot the graph of mana over time with Python:

def mana(
t,
starting_mana=3500,
mana_burn=50,
robe_mana=20,
health_to_burn=2000,
health_burn=60,
health_regen=29,
robe_health=60
):
if t < health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen):
return starting_mana - (mana_burn - robe_mana) * t
mana_spent_phase_one = (mana_burn - robe_mana) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen)
mana_spent_phase_two = (t - health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen)) * (mana_burn - robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health)
return starting_mana - mana_spent_phase_one - mana_spent_phase_two

import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
import numpy as np

# Generate x values (time)
t_values = np.linspace(0, 110, 100) # Adjust range as needed

# Calculate corresponding mana values
mana_values = [mana(t) for t in t_values]

# Plot the graph
plt.plot(t_values, mana_values)
plt.xlabel('Time')
plt.ylabel('Mana')
plt.title('Mana Over Time')
plt.grid(True)
plt.show()


Adding more mana shifts the whole graph upwards, extending the time until mana=0. Adding more health lengthens the first part of the graph.

If you have a Google account you can play around with the assumptions here: https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1tla-XkXMbj4GVsSw9o1m-V63t_ZbFnYw?usp=sharing

One final note: although I'm assuming canni-dancing the manna robe, I'm not taking into account of medding for mana regen. If you'd like to so do, you can just adjust the mana burn rate per tick to account for that.

Thank you for all this! What an incredible amount of work you've done, so I finally had a chance to dig into your posts and play around with the graphs. It seems to me, after plugging in different numbers that 1 mana is at least twice as effective as hit points in delaying zero mana. Do you think that spam clicking the robe would change the results at all? Are those the results you're seeing as well?

[bcbrown]

Thank you for all this! What an incredible amount of work you've done, so I finally had a chance to dig into your posts and play around with the graphs. It seems to me, after plugging in different numbers that 1 mana is at least twice as effective as hit points in delaying zero mana. Do you think that spam clicking the robe would change the results at all? Are those the results you're seeing as well?

I'm glad you appreciate the posts. Hopefully it's helpful in giving you a better understanding of the mana/health gearing tradeoffs.

Two things initially come to mind: first, without someone else checking carefully checking my calculations there's a good chance I made a mistake somewhere. If you read to the end of the thread that prompted you to reach out to me, you'll see an example of my fallibility. Second is the difference between the map and the territory. I made a bunch of assumptions, some more and less realistic. For example, canni-dancing for ten minutes while also doing everything else you need to do is clearly unrealistic. So it's always better to trust your real-life experiences over the predictions of a model. A model can only inform your estimates, not replace reality as it confronts you.

In terms of thinking about whether spam clicking would change the results, I would approach that through looking at that graph I posted. There's two sections, first where you have excess health and you're clicking the robe frequently, and then afterwards where you're just clicking to burn off regenerated health. You can think about the two sections as each having two attributes. First, there's the vertical distance traveled by the segment. Second, there's the slope of the line for that segment.

Increasing the vertical distance increases the length of the segment. Flattening the slope (lowering the number) increases the length of the segment. Each depends on the other: if you increase the vertical distance a constant value, it will extend the segment further if the slope is less. You can think about it like base jumping off a cliff: if you sink like a stone, it doesn't really matter how high the cliff you jump off, while if you can glide like a glider, your distance before you land is strongly influence by how high the cliff is.

In the first segment, the horizontal length kind of represents how much excess health you have. The slope is how much mana you're burning/regenerating. So if you're hitting the robe as fast as you can the first section will have a shallower slope, since you'll be regenerating more mana and therefore having a lower burn rate. However, the horizontal (time) length will be shorter, because you'll burn through your health faster.

So in each section, horizontal or vertical stretching depends on either gearing/buffing choices or behavior choices. In the first section, the health buffer depends on the gearing/hp-buffing, the slope depends on the behavior/regen-buffing. Once you know the slope, the health buffer will tell you the length of the segment.

In the second segment you're constrained by hp regeneration for how often you can click the robe, so there's not as many options where behavior can change the graph.

I know that didn't directly answer the question but did it help? Keep asking questions!


good luck to yall with all that, if you want to move a whole raid fast you stack more necros. all i care about is the few fights where its competitive to coth quickly, rest doesnt matter if its .2 sec slower waiting on a necro to pump me. the competitive ones only your pool matters, after the first 5-8 coths you either won or didnt.

This is a much more thoughtful post than your initial response. Why you gotta be so mean at first? For what it's worth, I agree with you. Initial burst used well with good communication being more important than sustained mana generation is a reasonable position. But good communication can't be improved with better gear, and once your pool is sufficient it seems reasonable to optimize for longer scenarios. Finally, and somewhat defensively, I'll point out that I didn't type that all out just for the hell of it. Balimon specifically asked me for my thoughts.

Mage trying to mage-ana-dance while answering tells from 40 different players in the raid

Good objection and clear weakness in the assumptions. However, I also did not include any mana regeneration from medding. How about standing the entire time and clicking the robe 6 times a minute? You can also change the assumption to be only 3 times a minute, in which case both segments will have the same slope and the math is much simplified. More detail can improve the model.


all these nerdy graphs and charts just steal a manastone and play on RED99

Maybe if you had more intelligence than a gnoll or more charisma than a troll your server would have more players than I have fingers and toes.

[Balimon]

I'm glad you appreciate the posts. Hopefully it's helpful in giving you a better understanding of the mana/health gearing tradeoffs.

Two things initially come to mind: first, without someone else checking carefully checking my calculations there's a good chance I made a mistake somewhere. If you read to the end of the thread that prompted you to reach out to me, you'll see an example of my fallibility. Second is the difference between the map and the territory. I made a bunch of assumptions, some more and less realistic. For example, canni-dancing for ten minutes while also doing everything else you need to do is clearly unrealistic. So it's always better to trust your real-life experiences over the predictions of a model. A model can only inform your estimates, not replace reality as it confronts you.

I'm not sure how many other people on the forums are qualified to check your math, certainly not me, I can plug your equations in and make them work and beyond that my eyes glaze over. I agree that canni dancing for ten minutes is unrealistic for most people, although I know a few people who play that hardcore. Personally on raids I would canni pretty much constantly while I wasn't doing anything else.


In terms of thinking about whether spam clicking would change the results, I would approach that through looking at that graph I posted. There's two sections, first where you have excess health and you're clicking the robe frequently, and then afterwards where you're just clicking to burn off regenerated health. You can think about the two sections as each having two attributes. First, there's the vertical distance traveled by the segment. Second, there's the slope of the line for that segment.

Increasing the vertical distance increases the length of the segment. Flattening the slope (lowering the number) increases the length of the segment. Each depends on the other: if you increase the vertical distance a constant value, it will extend the segment further if the slope is less. You can think about it like base jumping off a cliff: if you sink like a stone, it doesn't really matter how high the cliff you jump off, while if you can glide like a glider, your distance before you land is strongly influence by how high the cliff is.

In the first segment, the horizontal length kind of represents how much excess health you have. The slope is how much mana you're burning/regenerating. So if you're hitting the robe as fast as you can the first section will have a shallower slope, since you'll be regenerating more mana and therefore having a lower burn rate. However, the horizontal (time) length will be shorter, because you'll burn through your health faster.

So in each section, horizontal or vertical stretching depends on either gearing/buffing choices or behavior choices. In the first section, the health buffer depends on the gearing/hp-buffing, the slope depends on the behavior/regen-buffing. Once you know the slope, the health buffer will tell you the length of the segment.

In the second segment you're constrained by hp regeneration for how often you can click the robe, so there's not as many options where behavior can change the graph.

I know that didn't directly answer the question but did it help? Keep asking questions!

Noted, I'll play around with it some more. It didn't answer all my questions, however it did give me a better idea of what I was working with. I knew that hit points were weighted heavier with a manna robe, and I knew that past 3500 mana (7 CoTH's, as other have mentioned is sort of the magic number) hit points should have a different weight.

While I was right, it wasn't as strong as my gut believed, I'm glad to know that 1 mp = 2hp. What's interesting to me about this result is that it's not obvious considering we only knew that 3hp = 1mp or that 4hp > 1mp before. Calculating in standing regeneration really is the 'X' factor that allows us to see a more clear vision of how the stats are weighted this is admittedly obscure situation since no one plays mages much (especially on blue). I think on green people still do use mages fulltime on raids in ToV for example.

In regards specifically to the essay that I wrote where I was curious if two HGL's were actually an upgrade considering they weren't a straight 3 to 1 hp to mp ratio, I traded 75 mana for 163 hit points. This is indeed a minor upgrade according to your calculations, I always 'felt' this, and now I can know this. Thank you!

Random thought about standing regen, robe, and CoTH: In a CoTH race situation like Vulak, in the time it takes to cast CoTH 7 times with 3500 starting mana, you would click the robe 7 times, for 140 mana and regen 17.5 ticks at 21 standing mana regen is 367.5 mana, or 507.5 mana. Draw your own conclusions.

[bcbrown]

While I was right, it wasn't as strong as my gut believed, I'm glad to know that 1 mp = 2hp. What's interesting to me about this result is that it's not obvious considering we only knew that 3hp = 1mp or that 4hp > 1mp before. Calculating in standing regeneration really is the 'X' factor that allows us to see a more clear vision of how the stats are weighted this is admittedly obscure situation since no one plays mages much (especially on blue). I think on green people still do use mages fulltime on raids in ToV for example.

How did you reach the conclusion that 1 mp = 2 hp? That's not what I took away from my analysis.

[loramin]

Bcbrown, your posts were ... long. Too long for me to review.

But I will point out that this whole calculus has been done already a ton in this forum (and on Reddit too I think) ... only with Shaman cannibalizing (both with and without "cann dancing", ie. trying to catch med ticks).

Obviously Mana Robe isn't exactly the same as casting Cannibalize (I through IV) ... but the all the math should be basically the same, with just a couple of the initial numbers changing.

One simple way to verify your numbers is to find one of those calculation threads, take someone else's calculations, plug the Mana Robe numbers in, and see if you get similar numbers to your's.

[YudanNashi]

All I want to know is, do I (would you) drop phat DKP for it on mage or not? Thanks!

[loramin]

For the mana robe itself? I think it's a top tier item for Mages.

[bcbrown]

Bcbrown, your posts were ... long. Too long for me to review.

But I will point out that this whole calculus has been done already a ton in this forum (and on Reddit too I think) ... only with Shaman cannibalizing (both with and without "cann dancing", ie. trying to catch med ticks).

Obviously Mana Robe isn't exactly the same as casting Cannibalize (I through IV) ... but the all the math should be basically the same, with just a couple of the initial numbers changing.

One simple way to verify your numbers is to find one of those calculation threads, take someone else's calculations, plug the Mana Robe numbers in, and see if you get similar numbers to your's.

Yeah man, anyone would have to be a little unhinged to want to read all of my posts in this thread. To be honest, the reason I asked Balimon to take this from DMs to a public thread was because I wanted to be able to preview my writing in order to correct any mistakes and make edits.

I enjoyed getting to use my mathematical modeling skills, but I'm honestly not chomping at the bit to put a lot of more work into this topic; although I didn't expect to get much if any engagement, the complete lack of interest is a little discouraging. Your suggestion to look up shaman Canni threads is a great idea, but a brief search didn't find anything promising. If you want to find some of those calculation threads I'd take a look at them.


Now that I've done all the work to come up with an answer, I think I can rewrite it in a way that's shorter and easier to follow. If I did that, would you be interested in reading that?

[Ripqozko]

All I want to know is, do I (would you) drop phat DKP for it on mage or not? Thanks!

Nope but most mages would.

[Vivitron]

although I didn't expect to get much if any engagement, the complete lack of interest is a little discouraging.

I started thinking about your posts some (admittedly didn't read them all) but didn't get to the point of having a coherent reply. Given this I'll share the two thoughts I had about it:

1. I think COTH's cast per time instead of mana remaining per time is probably the more interesting way to model this.

2. We should probably graph two competing gear configurations on the same chart for easier comparison.

At the time I had an LLM cook up thought 2 based on your code as a single page of html/js, but I never got back around to swapping it to thought 1.

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<body>
<div>
<label>Line 1: Starting Mana <input id="mana1" type="number" value="3500"></label>
<label>Health to Burn <input id="health1" type="number" value="2000"></label>
</div>
<div>
<label>Line 2: Starting Mana <input id="mana2" type="number" value="3200"></label>
<label>Health to Burn <input id="health2" type="number" value="2300"></label>
</div>
<button onclick="drawChart()">Update Chart</button>
<svg id="chart" width="600" height="400"></svg>
<script>
function mana(t, params = {}) {
const {
starting_mana = 3500,
mana_burn = 50,
robe_mana = 20,
health_to_burn = 2000,
health_burn = 60,
health_regen = 29,
robe_health = 60
} = params;

const phase1_end = health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen);

if (t < phase1_end) {
return starting_mana - (mana_burn - robe_mana) * t;
}

const mana_spent_phase1 = (mana_burn - robe_mana) * health_to_burn / (health_burn - health_regen);
const mana_spent_phase2 = (t - phase1_end) * (mana_burn - robe_mana * health_regen / robe_health);

return starting_mana - mana_spent_phase1 - mana_spent_phase2;
}

function drawChart() {
const svg = document.getElementById('chart');
const width = svg.getAttribute('width');
const height = svg.getAttribute('height');
const margin = 40;
const chartWidth = width - 2 * margin;
const chartHeight = height - 2 * margin;

const tMax = 110;
const manaMax = 3500;

const params1 = {
starting_mana: Number(document.getElementById('mana1').value),
health_to_burn: Number(document.getElementById('health1').value)
};
const params2 = {
starting_mana: Number(document.getElementById('mana2').value),
health_to_burn: Number(document.getElementById('health2').value)
};

const points1 = Array.from({length: 100}, (_, i) => {
const t = i * tMax / 99;
return `${margin + t/tMax*chartWidth},${height - margin - mana(t, params1)/manaMax*chartHeight}`;
}).join(' ');

const points2 = Array.from({length: 100}, (_, i) => {
const t = i * tMax / 99;
return `${margin + t/tMax*chartWidth},${height - margin - mana(t, params2)/manaMax*chartHeight}`;
}).join(' ');

svg.innerHTML = `
<polyline points="${points1}" fill="none" stroke="blue" stroke-width="2" />
<polyline points="${points2}" fill="none" stroke="red" stroke-width="2" />
<line x1="${margin}" y1="${height-margin}" x2="${width-margin}" y2="${height-margin}" stroke="black" />
<line x1="${margin}" y1="${margin}" x2="${margin}" y2="${height-margin}" stroke="black" />
<text x="${width/2}" y="${height-10}" text-anchor="middle">Time</text>
<text x="10" y="${height/2}" text-anchor="middle" transform="rotate(-90 10,${height/2})">Mana</text>
`;
}

drawChart();
</script>
</body>
</html>

[loramin]

but I'm honestly not chomping at the bit to put a lot of more work into this topic; although I didn't expect to get much if any engagement, the complete lack of interest is a little discouraging.

I completely get that. I'd suggest that at least a few people here would likely be interested in some well-summarized math ... but they're also allergic to walls of text, and that is the reason for the lack of engagement.

Your suggestion to look up shaman Canni threads is a great idea, but a brief search didn't find anything promising. If you want to find some of those calculation threads I'd take a look at them.
Will try, but I'm in a similar place of "not exactly chomping at the bit" on this. ;)

Now that I've done all the work to come up with an answer, I think I can rewrite it in a way that's shorter and easier to follow. If I did that, would you be interested in reading that?

I think that depends on the exactly how much shorter/easier to follow it is. I'd happily read something that laid out the basics of what's involved in like a paragraph (or two tops), then threw out some (possibly dense, but not a wall of text) algebra equations, and then ended with a paragraph or two explaining what conclusions those equations lead to.

Just to be honest, anything more and you'd probably lose me.

[Balimon]

All I want to know is, do I (would you) drop phat DKP for it on mage or not? Thanks!

At this point in the timeline? Probably not really worth it. If you enjoy the class and don't mind pure support roles on raids it's a fun laid back option. All you need are sky DA ring, earring of the frozen skull, manna robe, and z heart to be effective. Everything else is icing on the cake, the epic is nice for raiding however with the way most guilds zerg you won't use it that much.

For the mana robe itself? I think it's a top tier item for Mages.

Yup, the tippy top. Nothing else gives that kind of utility, it should be the number one goal for anyone raiding on a mage.

How did you reach the conclusion that 1 mp = 2 hp? That's not what I took away from my analysis.

From playing around with the graphs, it took approximately 2x hp to equal the same time in ticks for 1 mp. What did you take away?

[Jimjam]

I like your maths posts bcbrown, they are a little wordy, but I like them.

[bcbrown]

I like your maths posts bcbrown, they are a little wordy, but I like them.

Just for you I'll rewrite my analysis in a more accessible format.


From playing around with the graphs, it took approximately 2x hp to equal the same time in ticks for 1 mp. What did you take away?

My topline conclusion was 124 hp = 40 mana. I didn't spend much time playing around with the graphs though. I'd love to know what number inputs gave you 2hp = 1hp.

[Jimjam]

I know the thread started with 12 sec cast time but 15 sec recast time, so using a mana robe with a 3 sec cast time is a perfect spacer between COTHs. I believe on the first page it was established that the damage done by that mana robe every 15 secs can be basically ignored in a variety of conditions.

Obviously the conversation has moved on from there, where are we at now?

[WarpathEQ]

TLDR, I skipped the responses because this is a pretty simple scenario, when looking at gear every +30hp is the same as +10 mana, look for the items the give the most combined by adding the +mana and +hp/3 together.

Ultimately the pool doesn't matter that much if you're looking at long term sustainability its all about how much you can regen so things like zheart and flowing thought items will be way more valuable than the max pool.

Of course that is highly revolved around being a coth bot, the maxes start to matter a if you want to be anything more than a coth bot.

[Ripqozko]

TLDR, I skipped the responses because this is a pretty simple scenario, when looking at gear every +30hp is the same as +10 mana, look for the items the give the most combined by adding the +mana and +hp/3 together.

Ultimately the pool doesn't matter that much if you're looking at long term sustainability its all about how much you can regen so things like zheart and flowing thought items will be way more valuable than the max pool.

Of course that is highly revolved around being a coth bot, the maxes start to matter a if you want to be anything more than a coth bot.

In sustainable environments yes, pool matters the most in competitive coths ie: lady never, zlandi etc where having enough for 8 fast coths matters the most. If ya not getting the core down ASAP you aren't winning the mob.

[Snaggles]

Being able to robe click between coths (8 times) is 160 mana gained. Over the course of the night bringing people to HoT it’s a luxury but as mentioned before it’s not a necessity.

If you are maining a mage, generally you are checking the lobby for stragglers or a reason to DA bomb. There might be causes for a DS or a few rods but in general past that coth race-scenario or the kind involving training out mobs it’s a very relaxed game. A reason a mage is maybe the ultimate warmbody raider…no faction hits even.

[bcbrown]

In sustainable environments yes, pool matters the most in competitive coths ie: lady never, zlandi etc where having enough for 8 fast coths matters the most. If ya not getting the core down ASAP you aren't winning the mob.

8 coths is 4k mana. Is your mage geared to a 4k mana pool? If not, what do you have to do to cast the eight coth? Why is eight the crucial number of coths to cast?

I know the thread started with 12 sec cast time but 15 sec recast time, so using a mana robe with a 3 sec cast time is a perfect spacer between COTHs. I believe on the first page it was established that the damage done by that mana robe every 15 secs can be basically ignored in a variety of conditions.

Obviously the conversation has moved on from there, where are we at now?

Perhaps this is more realistic than my initial scenario: At first you chain-cast coth, with a single robe click between coths while waiting for the recast timer. When you run out of mana you rapidly click the robe until you have enough mana for the next coth. It takes 25 clicks and 75 seconds to regain 500 mana, costing 1500 health in the process.

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

[Balimon]

8 coths is 4k mana. Is your mage geared to a 4k mana pool? If not, what do you have to do to cast the eight coth? Why is eight the crucial number of coths to cast?



Perhaps this is more realistic than my initial scenario: At first you chain-cast coth, with a single robe click between coths while waiting for the recast timer. When you run out of mana you rapidly click the robe until you have enough mana for the next coth. It takes 25 clicks and 75 seconds to regain 500 mana, costing 1500 health in the process.

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

Generally the group is either pre-made or you someone acting as anchor at entrance to invite people. You can target off the group window during the robe cast to speed it up. In other situations you eyeball to entrance and invite people manually.

[Ripqozko]

8 coths is 4k mana. Is your mage geared to a 4k mana pool? If not, what do you have to do to cast the eight coth? Why is eight the crucial number of coths to cast?



Perhaps this is more realistic than my initial scenario: At first you chain-cast coth, with a single robe click between coths while waiting for the recast timer. When you run out of mana you rapidly click the robe until you have enough mana for the next coth. It takes 25 clicks and 75 seconds to regain 500 mana, costing 1500 health in the process.

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

Yes im geared for 4k mana, then rest is resists for quadding

edit: 8 is just a good number to get the core down to sustain, 4 clerics, shm, ench, tank, last call a mage. if you are 2nd mage you could add couple more cleric, backup tank, bard, necros. You just want to be able to get the core down as one of the primary mages on actual competitive coths. if you arent competitive cothing then you just stack a bunch of necros to twitch you all eternity it doesnt matter at that point and ya min/maxing is pointless.

[bcbrown]

TLDR, I skipped the responses because this is a pretty simple scenario, when looking at gear every +30hp is the same as +10 mana, look for the items the give the most combined by adding the +mana and +hp/3 together.

There's two ways in which this isn't quite true. First, 60hp needs 3 seconds of casting to turn into 20 mana, so 20 mana is strictly better. Secondly the surprising part of my result is that it's not quite hp/3. You have to scale the health bonus by the ratio between the mana burn rate before and after you click through your health buffer. And that ratio is dependent upon how much health regen you have.

I'm still struggling to understand all the implications of that, but here's one way of thinking about it. If you have infinite health regen (say, a shaman who's doing nothing but keeping you torpored), adding more max hp won't help your mana pool, because you'll always be able to click the robe as much as you want.

The only time it would be hp/3 is if your mana burn rate is very low, equal to the mana you're getting from your robe clicks. In that scenario, you'd burn no mana while you're using the robe to burn through your health buffer, and then you'd burn through your mana pool.

So I think this suggests that the more health regen you have, the less important hp gear is for maximizing mana. But, like, when I crunched the numbers for one scenario I came up with hp/3.1, so I think it's totally fine to stick with hp/3 as a simple rule of thumb.

Here's the final result I came up with:
time til oom = initial_mana/burn2 + (1 - burn1/burn2) * initial_health/health_burn

Here, burn1 is the slope of the first portion and burn2 is the slope of the second portion in the graph I posted at the bottom of page 2.

Also, this is a lot of words just to come to the same conclusion as you:
Ultimately the pool doesn't matter that much if you're looking at long term sustainability its all about how much you can regen

[Toxigen]

the pool does matter on the only thing that matters (competitive coth engages)

[Ripqozko]

the pool does matter on the only thing that matters (competitive coth engages)

bunch of people that dont really play mages going full DSM and saying what matters to mages, oof.

[Toxigen]

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

Yep, leader is on anchor duty.

We used to call it RTE (ready to engage), and paid extra DKP for such duties. Players are at the keyboard, fully buffed, ready to rock with an established coth order. Typically when a pop goes late into window or high value target.

As Rip said, 8 is the magic number where you can yellow text and survive long enough for the 2nd mage to get another 7 up and stabilize. This is where worts, reapers, etc can make a big difference.

[Naethyn]

There is a significant difference between geared mages and ungeared mages for competitive coth engages.

[enjchanter]

i couldnt imagine spending 200k plat just so u can coth more lmao