Shadowknight - Ogre vs Human

[Revanx22]

I posted a thread about shadowknights and paladins the other day, and got some great advice. Ultimately I decided on a shadowknight, but I'm now stuck on race choice.

How much benefit does being an ogre benefit a shadowknight? Is it enough to justify the xp penalty? FSI seems great, but I've read mixed things on how helpful it is. I've stepped l scraped up about 17k to gear it, so I figure the extra stats from an ogre wouldn't hurt either. I'm also a little concerned about being so large, and was wondering how big of a negative that is when dungeon diving. My other option is human - mainly because I think they look cool and have better faction.

[Toxigen]

ogre is prob min/max but terrible fashion imo...i HATE being big on my warrior i wished i had made a gnome

its 2024, all that matters is looking good

pick for aesthetics and you'll never notice a difference in performance, trust me

go human lil buddy

[Revanx22]

Good, I was hoping that was the case. Ogres are ugly as hell.

[Toxigen]

Good, I was hoping that was the case. Ogres are ugly as hell.

If you want to be smaller but still get something useful theres always iksar. Racial regen is pretty damn nice.

Kinda depends on if you're gonna be solo or just grouping in the popular zones. If planning on mostly grouping then the regen won't be noticed as much.

But yeah, sounds like you're making a human.

[Snaggles]

With casual gear your STR and STA will be lacking significantly over the ogre. The last couple hundred HP’s or 3 dps aren’t worth looking a certain way though. Fill a backpack with some +STR gear for certain occasions.

A human can solo and hold aggro just as good. No 15% exp penalty either.

[PatChapp]

Iksar get greenmist pretty easy these days, really neat weapon. Play what you'll like leveling since most sks get abandoned at 60

[Toxigen]

Thats a good point. If you're on a sub 20k budget, greenmist would be a fantastic weapon if you have friends for the end targets.

Still prob not even close to 2H, but its cool.

[Keebz]

Troll or Iksar is the true question, but it's not easy being green. Consider erudite or DE.

Human might be the only bad SK race imho, but it's not _that_ bad I guess.

Being large sucks for old world dungeons, but nothing in kunark and velious.

[Naethyn]

Humans get the most out of items.

[Naethyn]

Also, I'd like to note that human SK can get the same exact gold plane of growth plate I wear, but paladins can't. I think this would be a dope sk.

[Troxx]

FSI is overrated.

Play you think looks the best. Fashionquest = most important stat

[Toxigen]

Also, I'd like to note that human SK can get the same exact gold plane of growth plate I wear, but paladins can't. I think this would be a dope sk.

wait...which one is this

ive never seen a gold BP on a SK

[Naethyn]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Noctivagant_Armor
And
https://wiki.project1999.com/Berserker%27s_Armor

Are identical.

[sajbert]

IMO disregard the XP penalty now that class penalty is gone.

Ogre has the best stats for starting but eventually with raid gear and a lot of dedication you will max stamina and strength either way. Primal weapons will also buff your dex to the point of it being maxed. Agi is more or less useless people say but Dark Elves have the best. Dark elves also have the highest INT, which is hard to max on a class like Ogre so if you wanna be technical, Dark Elves have the best stats for SK.

But..

FSI is considered useful for tanking and can also save your life when soloing and will be a QoL thing to be sure. Personally I'd much rather take regen however. It's not often that it'll make or break anything grouping and you don't really do much during raids anyway, regen will however be really strong for both solo end-game and leveling.

Some still swear by FSI though, so go Ogre if you prefer. I'd go Troll since Iksar can't use the clicky plate items but Iksar does get the AC boost which we don't really know how good or bad it is (afaik). Iksar also looks cool and could never get guise anyway if minmax is an issue for you. Technically guise is not so important for SKs since they get skellyform and they're evil to begin with, so once again up to you.

[Elizondo]

Even Dark Elves tank just fine

Play what you want to look at

[Revanx22]

You guys are making some good points. I never thought about dark elves, but they do look pretty sexy in plate. I already have a troll so I don't want another one. Iksars have tails, so that's out.

I think human or dark elf might be the way to go. Ogres are just so.... ogrey.

[Toxigen]

flip a coin and get grinding!

dark elf would prob be my vote but nothin wrong with regular ole hooman

[sajbert]

Just keep in mind dark elf stats are pretty terrible until raid geared.
Twinking will help but not mitigate the problem entirely.

Onthe bright side leveling an SK has never been easier with lots of cheap velious gear available and no class XP penalty.

[skulldudes]

honestly stats are an absolute non-factor unless you're completely broke, my human monk nearly caps stam just self-buffed and hits 250+ str w/ FoS and my gear is mid at best prioritizing hp/resists

[Insaiyan]

Dark elves get that sweet plate helm. And you can see in the dark. Mine looks badass. But having leveled him to 30, I feel like if he was an ogre I would have kept leveling him. Just because it’s annoying getting stunned. My 2c. He still has the best swag and gets compliments tho

[Snaggles]

honestly stats are an absolute non-factor unless you're completely broke, my human monk nearly caps stam just self-buffed and hits 250+ str w/ FoS and my gear is mid at best prioritizing hp/resists

Most mid-level tank gear if optimized for HP’s has AC/Stam/hps. HGL’s, Vindi Bp, Vindi boots, etc. It doesnt really matter, aggro is king, but an ogre or troll will hit those caps easier outside intel.

[Toxigen]

its 2024 stats dont matter....only fashion

[Insaiyan]

its 2024 stats dont matter....only fashion

It’s true. Play what looks cool, unless being optimal with the stats digs at you or something. In the broad spectrum of things — say you get your class to 60 and join a raid guild. They are likely going to ask you to log on a cleric or rogue guild toon instead of playing your character anyway lmao 🤣

[Jimjam]

It’s true. Play what looks cool, unless being optimal with the stats digs at you or something. In the broad spectrum of things — say you get your class to 60 and join a raid guild. They are likely going to ask you to log on a cleric or rogue guild toon instead of playing your character anyway lmao 🤣

So the minmax build is the one that convincingly passes as cleric or rogue at a glance.

That eliminates trolls, ogres and iksar off the bat.

Dark elf seems a strong contender. Rogues like to present as dark elf. Is there a good chain look and piercer for SK?

Likewise, plate/hammer builds to illusion cleric?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troll or Ogre is min/max, depending on what you are doing. Troll Regen will be better if you mostly solo. Ogre FSI will be better if you mostly group/raid. Big races also get access to weighted axe for bow kiting.

It sounds like OP doesn't want to pick Ogre though, so go Human. You still get access to Blood Ember clickies, which is nice. I would avoid Iksar. Greenmist isn't worth the loss of Blood Ember clickies.

[Snaggles]

I mean, stats don’t matter compared to how much you like the look your character. You can’t change certain aspects of that.

Still, 50 base STA and 70 base STR over an Erudite isn’t nothing unless you are moderately geared.

[busted]

With Ogre FSI, 2 FD spells and clickie FD pants you die WAY less often when you get too many mobs on a pull.

Not having FD interrupted is super OP

Aside: you will be fat as ogre but you get skele form at 55 to mitigate that

Additionally the other clickies like blood ember gauntlets for snare, you can basically cast it and it almost always will land with FSI. Maybe like 1/1000 casts gets push channeling interruption. Bashes/kicks from mobs are no problem. TBH its the most powerful racial trait in the game, If game was being rebalanced I'd probably remove it. But we classic babay!

[Sizar]

I solo leveled 99% of 1-60 on my Human SK and now raid tank. I can tell you FSI has never been a concern

[Insaiyan]

It’s not a concern but it is a nice quality of life thing they have on top of the huge stats. The drawback? You’re subjectively ugly and objectively big and cumbersome when moving around the world. Getting to level 55 to get smaller is no small task. I personally don’t like being stunned. My SK is also a dark elf though, because I think they look coolest and I like to see in the dark.

[Duik]

So u can see who is stunning you?

[busted]

I personally don’t like being stunned.

This is the way. Embrace fatness and FSI

2nd best would be Troll for regen + access to blood ember clickies. But trolls are also fat AND ugly. Ogre's maintain dominance as handsome fatties.

[Zuranthium]

I wish different types of SK's had access to specific clicky items that only their race/deity can obtain, would make things more interesting:

Human, all but Bertox = Feign Death
Human, Bertox worshipers = Disease DoTs, up to Scourge and Asystole
Erudite = all Fear and Shielding (HP, AC, Magic Resist buff) spells, up to level 44 Necro list
Dark Elf = Gather Shadows (instant invis) and Darkness (snare)
Troll = Darkness
Ogre = Shroud of Pain
Iksar = nothing because they already have both regen and AC buff

Also for Necro the same line of thinking, with the one difference being Human bertox followers would get a more powerful disease clicky than Gnome bertox followers, since Gnomes already have other benefits.

[Snaggles]

I can’t remember a single time being bashed from the front cost me a death or the guild/group anything.

I can remember a lot of times getting murdered by LDC’s when the zone-out was blocked or getting stuck on a ladder in HK.

I’m a proponent of the stats. It’s a nice perk. If you like ogres and trolls all the better. Its just not what is going to hold you back on your goals. A human SK is just badass. It’s also the only “medium” SK other than iksar that can use a Frostreaver.

[Sonark]

Most mid-level tank gear if optimized for HP’s has AC/Stam/hps. HGL’s, Vindi Bp, Vindi boots, etc. It doesnt really matter, aggro is king, but an ogre or troll will hit those caps easier outside intel.Amazing that the idea of "mid-level tank gear" is No Drop raid items.

[Snaggles]

Amazing that the idea of "mid-level tank gear" is No Drop raid items.

Yea for sure. My pally is mid-tier at best for p99. On live in this era would be considered heavily geared. Still doesn’t cap STR without maniacal or Yaulping. Caps STA though.

My baby SK ERU is nowhere near capping either.

https://wiki.project1999.com/index.php?title=Magelo_Blue:Corinnia&action=view&preload=&editintro=&section=

She is still in progress so I don’t care about the Chardok staples but even with those, and SS plate will need some help to “not have to worry about stats”.

[greatdane]

FSI is very convenient for a shadowknight. No other racial is useful while tanking, and the ability to ignore most bashes is great QOL. It's also amazing for pulling with FD because you don't always have room to do it without letting the mobs reach you. Nice when fear-kiting as well because you're gonna eat a bash literally every time fear breaks, although a dedicated soloer would probably get more out of regen.

But the most underrated thing about ogres is that you get like 50 free stamina. Contrary to popular belief (and constant claims by dumb people), you don't just max out stamina as a smaller race. You would need pretty much full BIS Velious raid gear to cap the stat unbuffed, which is what you really want because a free buff slot is worth a lot.

Most players never even have the opportunity to think about getting the kind of gear that a hum/iks/DE/eru needs to max out their stamina. Even doing it buffed requires some pretty serious gear, and getting to 255 unbuffed is very nearly impossible for those races. There's like, what, maybe ten players on the server who have that kind of gear?

When someone asks what race to pick, it's generally safe to assume that they're not the kind of player who's going to be raiding hardcore full-time in the server's top guild. In that case, ogre is so vastly superior to the other races that it's kind of absurd. You're pretty much just getting +50 stamina for free, on top of the best SK racial. There's no contest.

[Crede]

I've done 4 different SK builds(Iksar/Troll/Ogre/Human).

Order of importance(IMO) is Fashion > Regen > FSI. Regen is so clutch on a class that struggles with self healing, and it translates to more than just solo. Any type of small man stuff where heals may be lacking regen goes even further. FSI is not what it used to be since they fixed how often bash = stun.

If your main desire is to join full groups/raid then roll a pally IMO. SKs thrive in the smaller more niche stuff.

[enjchanter]

I'd go erudite and and if you pick ogre you're a coward

[shovelquest]

I missed some of the middle pages.. the most important stat in this game is eyepatch so human wins by a large margin strictly speaking in terms of min/max.

[Keebz]

Eyepatch human is just overplayed. It will never not scream "tunnel bard" to me. In time you come to prefer the obscure ones and work their features into your role play.

[PatChapp]

Mustache human is strongk, but that eyepatch is certainly bis

[Jimjam]

Mustache human is strongk, but that eyepatch is certainly bis

This is getting dangerously close to arguing for mix and match parts and ergo luclin.

[Duik]

Just call eyebrows eye moustaches and be done with it.

[strongNpretty]

If we're talkin fashion comes first.. I always think Erudite Melee's with their cultural armor is a hands down winner.

[Infectious]

20k budget... Going troll for racial regen and 2hd slam(1hd suck after level 20).

[busted]

My Ogre SK is super OP with FSI.

Pulling in hate and getting beat on by 4+ mobs and being able to reliably cast and land FD without getting bash interrupts is amazing.

Sure you are fat. But you can jenny craig weigh loss yourself with skele form at lvl 55

[Kreator6666]

I went Ogre because I really dislike being stunned. I would have done Iksar if I could tolerate being stunned.

[Knuckle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/712449384150990959/1279623818754654248/human_SK.jpg?ex=66d51e0c&is=66d3cc8c&hm=8cffffb1b0e44b1b1c8d486868189d2cecca3845a89e57f 17b054a268e903d53&

Human SK's are ballers. And they have the best SK stats besides ogre/troll, no exp penalty, highest fashion besides DE.

[Snaggles]

I went Ogre because I really dislike being stunned. I would have done Iksar if I could tolerate being stunned.

It happens very rarely and it’s really is just an interrupt. Not a big deal on casting 1.5 second aggro spells. Death Peace is only 1 second.

[Vexenu]

Given that SKs are literally the worst raiding class in the game, the act of leveling one to 60 is itself basically a fashion statement. Playing a max level SK is essentially saying, "I don't really care about min/maxing, I'm here to have fun." That being the case, you might as well play what looks and feels best to you. For most players that's probably a Human, DE or Erudite. But maybe others genuinely prefer the look of an Iksar or a fat Ogre/Troll. Just go with your own individual preference. The extra stats of a large race or FSI/regen are in no way necessary, especially if you can afford modest twinking.

[Naethyn]

In riot our SK’s tank ntov dragons and most of the trash as well. Warriors are dps.

[Kreator6666]

I just don't like the physical part of being stunned. Not being able to move and the sound it makes. I played an Iksar SK on live to uhh 80 I think and don't remember stun being an issue for me.

Coming to P99 I made an Iksar SK and could not stand being stunned. It happened enough to make it not fun. I dont raid or anything. Just play for fun.

I'm not saying Ogre is better for everyone. Just what I chose and why.

It sucks being an Ogre in tight Dungeon and getting around Neriak

[Toxigen]

In riot our SK’s tank ntov dragons and most of the trash as well. Warriors are dps.

because theres no competition and everyone is working on their 7th alt

[Troxx]

Not every guild throws 70+ max geared characters at raid content. When you’re doing NToV with 18-24 to maybe 30 characters … having a warrior front line tanking can make or break the success threshold when you’re operating the bare minimum number of clerics to roll a chain for a long ass fight. Extra clerics? Stoutness of the tank matters less. Extra dps? Fights end in a fraction of the time. Extra of both? Who cares - p99 raiding never was challenging if you have a Zerg.

Regardless, for content tankable by knights, a paladin is going to soak the hits just as well while also having some neato tricks the SK won’t.

Vex was more or less correct for most raid content.

[Toxigen]

if they were competitive engages it would be warriors lol

you know the raid scene / server is dead when SKs get to play the game

[Ripqozko]

if they were competitive engages it would be warriors lol

you know the raid scene / server is dead when SKs get to play the game

it died 8 years ago, long before most here started

[Keebz]

There's more to the game than tanking shit in NToV.

[Crede]

I just don't like the physical part of being stunned. Not being able to move and the sound it makes. I played an Iksar SK on live to uhh 80 I think and don't remember stun being an issue for me.

Coming to P99 I made an Iksar SK and could not stand being stunned. It happened enough to make it not fun. I dont raid or anything. Just play for fun.

I'm not saying Ogre is better for everyone. Just what I chose and why.

It sucks being an Ogre in tight Dungeon and getting around Neriak

This quote should be prefaced in every racial debate thread where people are praising FSI for all it's "benefits".

[Sonark]

but Iksar does get the AC boost which we don't really know how good or bad it is (afaik).Iksar War get 34 (or is it 37?) extra AC at 60. All the other classes get 30

So they basically get a free extra breastplate's worth of AC.

Which amounts to probably nothing.

[shovelquest]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Noctivagant_Armor
And
https://wiki.project1999.com/Berserker%27s_Armor

Are identical.

What's it look like on a DE i wonder.

[Duik]

I just don't like the physical part of being stunned. Not being able to move and the sound it makes. I played an Iksar SK on live to uhh 80 I think and don't remember stun being an issue for me.

Coming to P99 I made an Iksar SK and could not stand being stunned. It happened enough to make it not fun. I dont raid or anything. Just play for fun.

I'm not saying Ogre is better for everyone. Just what I chose and why.

It sucks being an Ogre in tight Dungeon and getting around Neriak

You prolly had stun resist gear? 88 is pretty high and a few expats so u prolly forget the lower lvls and revel in the superior memories.

I know i did. Wizard critz are my best memory. Not really a thing here.

[Eisai]

There were AAs for stun resistance also

[shovelquest]

I too know the feeling of pure rage while you are stunned.

https://i.imgur.com/jKK2SIy.png

[Eisai]

Definitely ogre. Slam and fsi. Troll and iksar have min max arguments (feign death and lich Regen) but human only has robes? Rather be dark elf for that + fashion)... Unless it's a girl maybe? Female helm: human beats elf.

[Sonark]

There's AAs that give every tank class complete frontal stun immunity. Monks get a 75% stun resist from any angle, which helps a lot with pulling. It's also supposed to be only physical-based, but seems to apply to the cheaper stun spells, like the ones from the 2015 Droga.

Racial differences are equally as cosmetic as the Velious raid level, 23 years ago, but people on here will act like there's a difference.

[Sizar]

You have to look at your character too, for days of your life. This for me ends the debate. Ogre is the last race I would ever choose, I have a shaman Ogre and regret it

[Eisai]

You have to look at your character too, for days of your life. This for me ends the debate. Ogre is the last race I would ever choose, I have a shaman Ogre and regret it


Elaborate.

I can't imagine it's a big issue being large after you out level unrest really? Most other tiny areas are flagged indoors for shrink, and we're in the outdoor ant potion era so being a shaman kinda kills that disadvantage. Is it the butt scratching or the ugly velious helm?

[PatChapp]

Toaster hat is one of the ogre redeeming qualities

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have to look at your character too, for days of your life. This for me ends the debate. Ogre is the last race I would ever choose, I have a shaman Ogre and regret it

Elaborate.

I can't imagine it's a big issue being large after you out level unrest really? Most other tiny areas are flagged indoors for shrink, and we're in the outdoor ant potion era so being a shaman kinda kills that disadvantage. Is it the butt scratching or the ugly velious helm?

Ogre Shamans are the best. They can even scratch their butts through plate armor. If that doesn't impress, I don't know what will!

[Duik]

Gotta say shrunken ogre is pretty hilarious.

[Sizar]

Elaborate.

I can't imagine it's a big issue being large after you out level unrest really? Most other tiny areas are flagged indoors for shrink, and we're in the outdoor ant potion era so being a shaman kinda kills that disadvantage. Is it the butt scratching or the ugly velious helm?

Fashion is a thing, ogre's are hard to look at, are huge (yeah shrink is a thing, so is skel form at 55) . If not shrunk they are ungainly to move around in tight quarters. When fighting things that are smaller than you, which is most things, it's nice to be able to see what you are hitting, which you can't a lot of the time without going 1st person or camera manip.

End of the day, it really doesn't matter which race you choose when you are thinking end game gear etc. Anything will be good. A factor for me, and for a lot of folks, is fashion / how your character actually looks...as well as how they "feel" when playing them. That "feel"....ogres are just the worst.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fashion is a thing, ogre's are hard to look at, are huge (yeah shrink is a thing, so is skel form at 55) . If not shrunk they are ungainly to move around in tight quarters. When fighting things that are smaller than you, which is most things, it's nice to be able to see what you are hitting, which you can't a lot of the time without going 1st person or camera manip.

End of the day, it really doesn't matter which race you choose when you are thinking end game gear etc. Anything will be good. A factor for me, and for a lot of folks, is fashion / how your character actually looks...as well as how they "feel" when playing them. That "feel"....ogres are just the worst.

I disagree. Personally I very rarely have issues with Ogre/Troll size, and I play both. I rarely shrink myself. I have played big races for years, even on live, so perhaps I am used to it.

Same with fighting mobs. Never really have a problem due to height. Sometimes the extra height is better, as your camera is higher off the ground.

Being taller also helps with getting up certain terrain, stairs, etc. You don't need to jump like a smaller race would. It's easier to shrink yourself than it is to make yourself bigger.

Visually I think Ogres/Trolls are more interesting. The humaoid races all have terrible running animations. That is the toughest thing to look at for me.

[Crede]

If we’re talking about ogre fashion then sk epic is the coolest weapon in the game and is massive on an ogre so that’s a huge plus.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If we’re talking about ogre fashion then sk epic is the coolest weapon in the game and is massive on an ogre so that’s a huge plus.

Agreed!

[Snaggles]

The ogre stats are an advantage for anything but a heavily geared little. Fortunately lacking some attack and hps to not look like a manatee is a wash.

[Naethyn]

Human sk can look like me.

[RobotGraveyard]

Having a blast playing my Erudite SK. Just hit 54 and moderately twinked. Damage is not high by anymeans, but Tantor's Tusk + Eyepatch haste + RBB makes me hit pretty damn hard. Oh, and I am wearing Imbued Steelsilk Breastplate (https://wiki.project1999.com/Imbued_Steelsilk_Breastplate_(Cazic_Thule))

[rjw513]

^ fashion win!!

[Crede]

Erudite is the true min/max sk from a stat perspective. As soon as I hit 51 with my sk, i just found myself wanting INT more than anything else. INT returns are much better than stamina as well and having more mana for taps/fears is key later on. If you want to be a pulling specialist, I could see the case for ogre. An sk with 3 different fds & FSI is going to have some fun if youre doing a lot of pulling, although once you get snare gaunts splitting is pretty easy/cheap. But really like any build fashion is usually > all. I quit my ogre sk around lvl 52 as I could not stand staring at him anymore.

[Snaggles]

This is a pretty generic SK alt with a few nice things. You could replace the SD or Epic with any 1h and be in a similar spot.

I put 5 starting points in AGI and 20 in STA. A +6 Neck would take me to 200 unbuffed STA.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Corinnia

A larger race would have less issues capping stamina and would likely go with other things such as the greaves. Raid armor would make things better and shore up some of the STR issues. I think for a knight fashion and no XP penalty is the BiS combo. I leveled this char, geared it up to a tolerable point, and haven’t played it much since.

Outside using BE legs for AFK breaks, messing with stalking probes, or crawling green con places I rather dislike them. I bought likely due to DSM brainwashing lol. The gloves are certainly handy for low-mana regen grouping.

[wagorf]

dark elves sk pog armor ftw

[99Light]

while i am not uber end raider or perfect min maxer, i think if you have not played ogres the FSI doesnt seem like much. Yes all sorts of races can be warrs, sks, and shamans. But once you level an ogre or two, then try to play something else your like this is bs. Gimmie back my but scratches and FSI

[sajbert]

Iksar War get 34 (or is it 37?) extra AC at 60. All the other classes get 30

So they basically get a free extra breastplate's worth of AC.

Which amounts to probably nothing.
It's supposedly a different kind of AC, avoidance AC or whatever. So may be more impactful than you think.

[Trelaboon]

Ogre are objectively better stat-wise, but then you have to be an Ogre.

I absolutely cannot stand being a large race. I have a Barbarian Shaman and even that is too large for me. I can’t stand Troll and Ogre. I kinda wish I liked Trolls though just for the innate regen which is pretty nice for soloing downtime. I also never cared much for Iksar so that’s out as well.

As others have said though, if you plan to raid at top end, melee stats won’t matter much. Intelligence is actually hard to max so Dark Elf, in raid gear, is one of the better options. At the end of the day though, I’d pick whatever race you like the best. Theres nothing worse than regretting your race pick later on. I’ve done that on numerous characters that I now barely play just because I can’t stand the race I chose lol

[CrazyPro]

ogre master race

[Duik]

ogre masterbates

There, it's fixed it.