DPS: Monk vs. Warrior vs. Rogue vs. Ranger

[Dundrige]

I am just curious and have wondered this for awhile:

How does DPS compare between the four? In both order and % difference?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is one DPS log of heavily raid geared melee:


[Fri Jan 11 16:32:31 2019] Dannyll tells the guild, 'Derakor the Vindicator in 119s, 188k @1578dps --- Jumbasa 15k @128dps --- Detoxx 14k @121dps --- Paulgiamatti 12k @112dps --- Evulsion 11k @97dps --- Cracck 10k @90dps --- Shaolen 10k @90dps --- Narienna 10k @90dps --- Stabzer 10k @89dps --- Nuge 9k @82dps --- Tulenk 9k @83dps


Jumbasa Is a Rogue, Detoxx is a Warrior, Shaolen is a Monk, and Tulenk is a Ranger.

Obviously this is only one log, and most likely Detoxx wasn't main tanking. He was probably Berserking with an offensive disc.


/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps


According to Ripqozko, he's done 118 DPS on his ranger vs Vindi before.

Rogue DPS is generally the highest. They can generate high DPS more consistently than the other classes due to not needing things like disciplines or berserk to boost damage.

Based on the data above, the difference across the four classes is 40 DPS at worst, with RNG, Discs, Berserk, and other wiggle room that reduces this delta. This is looking at characters with a lot of raid gear.

[Dundrige]

Wow, thanks for that... Warriors are so close to rogue! That's amazing.. and Monk is farther away than I thought it would be!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wow, thanks for that... Warriors are so close to rogue! That's amazing.. and Monk is farther away than I thought it would be!

As I said, Detoxx was probably Berserking with an offensive disc. This means Warrior DPS over an hour would be lower, as they may not be in Berserk 100% of the time, and they can't maintain offensive discs over an hour. Monk DPS is more consistent over a longer period of time, as they do not need to do these things to maintain their DPS.

[Sonark]

Okay, so how about those classes without that kind of gear, which is what 99% of the player base is?

[Dundrige]

Okay, so how about those classes without that kind of gear, which is what 99% of the player base is?

This isn't about each class's particular DPS, just curious the comparison between them.

[Sonark]

This isn't about each class's particular DPS, just curious the comparison between them.
You wouldn't REALLY know unless you had BiS for everyone. Saying "raid geared" is as nebulous a concept as "well geared"

But group geared is easier, and is about as well as the vast majority of people are going to get, so is kinda the only number that really matters, if we're gonna play that game.

[Dundrige]

You wouldn't REALLY know unless you had BiS for everyone. Saying "raid geared" is as nebulous a concept as "well geared"

But group geared is easier, and is about as well as the vast majority of people are going to get, so is kinda the only number that really matters, if we're gonna play that game.

I don't care if they are raid geared or group geared I just want to know the comparison between them!

[Sonark]

I don't care if they are raid geared or group geared I just want to know the comparison between them!

Gear would decide the comparison between them. You can't have an answer to your question unless you know that.

If someone has two Rusty Daggers, and the other guy has two Lamentations, no gear and no haste for both, the Lammy is gonna win every time

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You wouldn't REALLY know unless you had BiS for everyone. Saying "raid geared" is as nebulous a concept as "well geared"

But group geared is easier, and is about as well as the vast majority of people are going to get, so is kinda the only number that really matters, if we're gonna play that game.

Raid geared characters can be a bit easier to compare, because a number of factors are more likely to be equal across the players, such as:

1. level (They are all 60 with max skills)
2. Stats (They all have 255 STR)
3. Haste (Same haste buff and probably same worn haste)
4. The mob they are fighting (Not that many raid bosses, so you have more parses of the same fight)

This will narrow down the DPS differences to class differences rather than other factors like gear, stats, and enemy stats.

BiS/Near BiS weapons vary on ratio, but there aren't a lot of options for top tier drops. This means you'll see more end-game raiders with the same weapons if they all play a lot. Same with armor.

"Normal" players also tend to gravitate towards similar gear, as some items are just better than others, while still being reasonably priced. However, stats, buffs, skills, level, and haste can vary more in the "Normal" players, which can skew the data more than raiders. There is more target variety too, which means you have more variety in mob stats when looking at parses.

Ideally you do a controlled test where all four classes are level 60 with the same stats, same buffs, max skills, same haste, and using weapons with the same ratio. Would love to see that if someone ever does it.

[Toxigen]

warriors tanking unslowable mobs with max DS is fuckin baller dps

[WarpathEQ]

General convention is Rogues are the highest DPS, monks and warriors compete for second, and rangers are 4th.

I've seen each of the 4 classes at the top of parses so as previously stated gear is typically a bigger factor than class so results can vary greatly.

While I think there is some validity to "raid geared" toons having more similar comparables there is still a massive disparity in items. Being HoT geared vs. NToV geared, vs. Vulak geared and very different worlds

And of course tanks can get a huge boost by loading up on damage shields

[DeathsSilkyMist]

General convention is Rogues are the highest DPS, monks and warriors compete for second, and rangers are 4th.

I've seen each of the 4 classes at the top of parses so as previously stated gear is typically a bigger factor than class so results can vary greatly.

While I think there is some validity to "raid geared" toons having more similar comparables there is still a massive disparity in items. Being HoT geared vs. NToV geared, vs. Vulak geared and very different worlds

And of course tanks can get a huge boost by loading up on damage shields

To clarify, the data I was using is with top raiders who have a lot of BiS or near BiS peices already. HoT gear is more like pre-raid gear honestly. Most people wouldn't consider an alt in HoT armor to be raid geared.

[Jimjam]

General convention is Rogues are the highest DPS, monks and warriors compete for second, and rangers are 4th.

I've seen each of the 4 classes at the top of parses so as previously stated gear is typically a bigger factor than class so results can vary greatly.

While I think there is some validity to "raid geared" toons having more similar comparables there is still a massive disparity in items. Being HoT geared vs. NToV geared, vs. Vulak geared and very different worlds

And of course tanks can get a huge boost by loading up on damage shields

DS is huge and rangers have the worst avoidance, making them the best DS tank.
Keeping them alive is the cleric’s problem.

[Vivitron]

Typically I see rogues taking the top of the parse, but the top monks outdamaging the majority of the rogues. This is the top monk's damage as a % of the top rogue's damage from some parses:

Tunare: 78%
AoW: 80%
Tunare: 83%

Not sure how it would differ selecting average damages instead of top.

[Snaggles]

I wouldn’t put the average 2h offensive disc Warrior (especially if zerking) in the world of rogues. Not as a general practice. It’s a segment of a segment and while technically accurate is not what people tend to show up to do.

Assuming all warriors do monk and rogue dps most the time is how we get 70 page threads that don’t hold up to normal parses.

Warpath stated it very accurately. Dps tends to fall exactly where you expect it to, with an occasional freak outlier. Rogues do insane dps per plat/dkp spent.

[Toxigen]

Rogues do insane dps per plat/dkp spent.

Thats the key right there.

Epic, Lodi Belt, SWC, save all DKP for primal. Fill the rest in with HP / resists because odds are you're gonna be STR capped. Pick up some raid scraps after primal if you're wanting to live longer without spot heals. You won't be that far off from the sweaty vulak/vyemm rogues that weapon swap.

[Jimjam]

I have had a brain fart. Please remind me - what is SWC an abbreviation of?

[Toxigen]

I have had a brain fart. Please remind me - what is SWC an abbreviation of?

spirit wracked cord: 100 hp, resists, aura of battle which stacks with all other AoB (lodi belt in this case)

oh and can be worn shoulders, arms, or wrist so can slap it in your worst spot and move it around in case of upgrades

its a pain in the nuts to get but 100% worth

[Snaggles]

A rogue with a MH Epic and tolerable offhand won’t be top dog on Tunare but will consistently deliver impressive numbers if played correctly. Get all the buffs possible, don’t let haste fade, don’t die mid-fight or enrage.

All the good stuff makes any class much better. The rogue is just broken though for what you can get from a 30k pp MQ. It’s basically Kunark doz loot…

[Naethyn]

https://i.imgur.com/KtOdgBC.png

[Snaggles]

There you go. Proof to roll a bard.

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/KtOdgBC.png

is diamondfist still playing or did he donate the char?

[Sonark]

I'm curious why no one ever talks about DEX on this server

[Toxigen]

I'm curious why no one ever talks about DEX on this server

because its shit

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm curious why no one ever talks about DEX on this server

The formula is straightforward. You get 2 procs per minute on average at 255 DEX. There isn't much to say other than try to get more DEX if you want to proc more. With Avatar + Focus of Spirit, all melee characters will be over 200 DEX.

https://i.imgur.com/KtOdgBC.png

As for Naethyn's parse he provided, more than half of his DPS is from the damage shield. Just making sure people understand what is going on there. That is why he has 700 hits while everyone else only has around 400. This isn't normal for a Warrior. Avatar of War hits more often than most mobs too, which means more DS damage.

[Jimjam]

Okay. For fair comparison answer this: Whats a rogue’s dps while tanking AoW?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Okay. For fair comparison answer this: Whats a rogue’s dps while tanking AoW?

All classes would get roughly the same damage shield DPS on AoW if they simply stood there with auto attack off, and had enough clerics to keep them alive. Classes without parry, block, etc. would deal a bit more damage shield DPS.

The damage shield damage is not Warrior specific, and isn't part of a normal discussion about which class does more or less DPS.

You need multiple classes to apply the damage shields that a Warrior uses. You could easily move the DPS from the Warrior to the players casting the damage shield instead, as the Warrior would be doing zero damage shield damage otherwise.

[Jimjam]

All classes would get roughly the same damage shield DPS on AoW if they simply stood there with auto attack off, and had enough clerics to keep them alive. Classes without parry, block, etc. would deal a bit more damage shield DPS.

The damage shield damage is not Warrior specific, and isn't part of a normal discussion about which class does more or less DPS.

You need multiple classes to apply the damage shields that a Warrior uses. You could easily move the DPS from the Warrior to the players casting the damage shield instead, as the Warrior would be doing zero damage shield damage otherwise.

Wrong. Other classes won’t survive tanking AoW so don’t get to claim DS dps vs AoW.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wrong. Other classes won’t survive tanking AoS so don’t get to claim DS dps vs AoW.

With enough Clerics any class can survive AoW. You usually just don't have guilds fielding 100+ Clerics.

The Warrior does not add Rogue Backstab damage to their DPS simply because the Warrior is enabling the mob's back to be turned.

The reality is the Warrior can only apply the damage shield DPS via the other classes that cast the damage shields. Those classes would get the damage shield DPS credit.

[Toxigen]

With enough Clerics any class can survive AoW.


the fuck are you talking about?

this is going in my sig, thanks

every time you make some bullshit post im gonna chime in with a "see sig"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

the fuck are you talking about?

this is going in my sig, thanks...godamn you're retarded

Yes, any class can survive AoW with enough Clerics. If you don't understand the basic math there, that's on you.

Warriors enable lower cleric kills, which is more ideal since single guilds generally can't field enough clerics to facilitate an any class tanking scenario.

[Toxigen]

lmao

holy mfkin autism

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lmao

I'd ask you to back up your assumptions with something more than this, but you don't do that generally speaking. Also, putting other people's comments in your signature just makes you look bad lol.

Sorry you got.

[Toxigen]

no amount of clerics save a 1 rounder

you are the most dense piece of wall-licking-raider-garbage ive ever had the displeasure of reading here

you're a prime example of why it was terrible when freedom had to absorb azure guard

[DeathsSilkyMist]

no amount of clerics save a 1 rounder

you are the most dense piece of wall-licking-raider-garbage ive ever had the displeasure of reading here

you're a prime example of why it was terrible when freedom had to absorb azure guard


Cloth casters can get +4200 HP from HP items, 255 STA, FoS, Aego, and Divine Strength. This doesn't include their base HP, which is at least 500. This is a minimum of 4700 HP. They can survive one round of a 1154 quad attack, which is 4616 HP. With enough Clerics in a chain, you can land CH's multiple times per second.

I am not saying it would be easy, or recommended. You can say it isn't practical to do this. But it's incorrect to claim only Warriors can tank AoW. It's also not relevant to Warrior DPS, or why damage shield damage is not included in a Warrior's DPS.

[Toxigen]

k bud

[DeathsSilkyMist]

k bud

Again, you have nothing to back up your point.

[Jimjam]

you're a prime example of why it was terrible when freedom had to absorb azure guard

It’s been a while since I’ve been played a warrior on a tank list for AoW. Please refresh my memory, doesn’t it aggressively flurry?

Even going for roundly cheals I recall running defensive was key to surviving rounds/flurries/ripostes?

DSM’s post makes AOW sound far easier than I recall.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s been a while since I’ve been played a warrior on a tank list for AoW. Please refresh my memory, doesn’t it aggressively flurry?

Even going for roundly cheals I recall running defensive was key to surviving rounds/flurries/ripostes?

DSM’s post makes AOW sound far easier than I recall.

Yes, AoW can flurry. My logs show he can hit up to 7 or 8 times in one second on a single target. However, logs only show seconds as the smallest increment. They don't show if a mob attacks, pauses, and then attacks again within that second.

From my memory, he can only do 4 attacks simultaneously at a time. An 8 hit attack in one second is not doing all 8 hits simultaneously, it's two sets of four attacks. This means a CH chain going fast enough could save you inbetween attacks as long as you can survive 4600 damage per attack set. This is generally just impractical, as 1 second CH chains are the standard. You'd need at least double the clerics to do a 0.5 second chain.

But if someone shows that all 8 hits indeed happen simultaneously, then I would be wrong. It's been a while since I've done AoW, so I could be misremembering.

[Snaggles]

While I think sometimes people who “tank AoW” overlook minor details like the 25+ clerics or the classes giving the DS that puts them on the parse, outside charmed pets nobody is tanking AoW but warriors.

A 25+ chain instant chain is still subject to human error. Warriors especially with defensive add a safety net where the beefiest knight would be on razor thin margins even if avoiding that one-round dirt nap. They will drop more quickly and you will need a bump…so more bumps and tanks to do the same job.

A theoretical 100 cleric chain of course is sustainable forever but it just adds more chance of error. Unless you have a substantial amount of dps it’s going to be a slow fight so just more chance for error as boredom and fatigue sets in.

Plus…there is a reason why clerics universally get dkp bonuses. You can’t just pick a number and expect them to show up in droves.

Rather than push people into silly warrior roles (like AoW) I do think there is a case for more knight tank targets. If you have the clerics and the knight has 6k+ why not? It keeps things fun.

Anyways what were we saying about dps classes? Rangers are the best? :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

While I think sometimes people who “tank AoW” overlook minor details like the 25+ clerics or the classes giving the DS that puts them on the parse, outside charmed pets nobody is tanking AoW but warriors.

A 25+ chain instant chain is still subject to human error. Warriors especially with defensive add a safety net where the beefiest knight would be on razor thin margins even if avoiding that one-round dirt nap. They will drop more quickly and you will need a bump…so more bumps and tanks to do the same job.

A theoretical 100 cleric chain of course is sustainable forever but it just adds more chance of error. Unless you have a substantial amount of dps it’s going to be a slow fight so just more chance for error as boredom and fatigue sets in.

Plus…there is a reason why clerics universally get dkp bonuses. You can’t just pick a number and expect them to show up in droves.

Rather than push people into silly warrior roles (like AoW) I do think there is a case for more knight tank targets. If you have the clerics and the knight has 6k+ why not? It keeps things fun.

I agree with all of this. I never claimed tanking AoW with a non-Warrior was easy, or advisable.

I was simply rebutting the claim: "Warriors are the only Tank who can tank AoW, so they get to add the damage shield damage to their parse".

For the first part of the claim, in theory any class can tank AoW. This is assuming AoW can only hit four times maximum per attack (Double attack with two flurry triggers), and this is assuming you have enough Clerics. So the first part of the claim is disproven. But you are correct it would be difficult to get a 0.25 second CH chain working consistently enough. Both in terms of player count and human error.

For the second part of the claim, Tanks do not get to take backstab damage and add it to their DPS, even though backstabs are generally only possible when you have another player tanking the mob for the Rogue. Same logic applies to Damage Shields. The person casting the damage shield gets DPS credit, not the player wearing the damage shield. This disproves the second part of the claim.

[Jimjam]

Warriors aren’t adding ds to their parse. It is baked into it.

[Kirdan]

To answer the OP:
It's generally going to be rogue > monk > warrior/ranger. Certain fights favor one class over another, whether it's due to different threat conditions (FD is much better than evade) or different raid strategies (sometimes archery is preferred for dps), but outside of those niche situations, and assuming gear levels are roughly equal, it's rogue > monk > warrior/ranger.

Yes, any class can survive AoW with enough Clerics.
To this guy:
Um, no. Unless you are just saying that anyone can get lucky enough that they never eat a max flurry round? That would be a pretty asinine thing to suggest though. Even max HP defensive warriors (the very best tank for this encounter) can die within a 1s window vs AoW. Remove defensive and it becomes literally impossible to survive a max flurry round. (1154 x 6) + 309 = 7233 dmg in one round where no heals can possibly land between the damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To this guy:
Um, no. Unless you are just saying that anyone can get lucky enough that they never eat a max flurry round? That would be a pretty asinine thing to suggest though. Even max HP defensive warriors (the very best tank for this encounter) can die within a 1s window vs AoW. Remove defensive and it becomes literally impossible to survive a max flurry round. (1154 x 6) + 309 = 7233 dmg in one round where no heals can possibly land between the damage.

Again, I didn't say it would be easy or advisable.

Also, why do you think AoW can hit 6x in one attack?

As far as I know, he can only hit 4 times per single attack (Double Attack + 2 Flurries). He does attack fast enough to attack multiple times per second, but a CH chain going faster than 1 second could heal between attacks.

The reason why a Warrior can die in one second is because the CH chain is a 1 second chain, not because AoW is doing 6+ hits in a single attack. This is because AoW can do multiple attacks in a second, which can add up to like 8 hits. You could theoretically heal between those attacks on a CH chain faster than a second.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warriors aren’t adding ds to their parse. It is baked into it.

No. The parser is simply applying the Damage Shield DPS to the wearer, because the parser doesn't know who cast the damage shield(s) on the wearer.

That is just a limitation of the parser. The parser doesn't know or care about nuance like that.

[Kirdan]

You are incorrect. He can hit 6x on a flurry round (plus a bash for a little extra 7th). That is not 2 rounds in the same second. There is no way to remove that chance of death via a faster chain. Now, if you have a TON of dps and a TON of luck, then sure, maybe you avoid the worst case scenario (and many slightly less worse case scenarios that are also fatal) long enough to kill AoW with a lesser tank, but that is just not reasonably possible.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are incorrect. He can hit 6x on a flurry round (plus a bash for a little extra 7th). That is not 2 rounds in the same second. There is no way to remove that chance of death via a faster chain. Now, if you have a TON of dps and a TON of luck, then sure, maybe you avoid the worst case scenario (and many slightly less worse case scenarios that are also fatal) long enough to kill AoW with a lesser tank, but that is just not reasonably possible.

What's the mechanic for him getting 6 hits? Does he have tripple attack (3 hits + 3 flurry triggers)?

And yes, I agree it's very tough, I never claimed otherwise.

[Sonark]

because its shitAlso increases how often you hit the mob, which no one ever seems to think is important.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also increases how often you hit the mob, which no one ever seems to think is important.

This is incorrect unfortunately. No stat like DEX, STR, etc. affects how often you hit on P99.

[Kirdan]

What's the mechanic for him getting 6 hits? Does he have tripple attack (3 hits + 3 flurry triggers)?

And yes, I agree it's very tough, I never claimed otherwise.

I need to revise that 6 up to an 8, but it's still one flurry round. 8 round flurries are very rare but they do happen. 7 more common, 6 even more common. My understanding of the mechanics is that a flurry is up to 2 extra attacks per arm so he gets 0-4 extra swings on top of his 0-4 for a normal quad chance. As you can see, there is absolutely nothing in between the 7 and 8 swing rounds, they are not stacked rounds within the same second - they are single rounds happening instantaneously.

[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Bloodraven!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] The Avatar of War tries to bash YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] Fapp tries to slash The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] Fapp slashes The Avatar of War for 5 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] Deathtoll slashes The Avatar of War for 16 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] Galbimaru pierces The Avatar of War for 44 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:51:59 2023] Galbimaru tries to pierce The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vertebreaker pierces The Avatar of War for 15 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vertebreaker pierces The Avatar of War for 31 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Ratadm tries to pierce The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Ratadm pierces The Avatar of War for 16 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Leker tries to hit The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Meathookk crushes The Avatar of War for 32 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Jabekn tries to hit The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] You try to slash The Avatar of War, but miss!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] You slash The Avatar of War for 37 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Ushiyama crushes The Avatar of War for 12 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Ushiyama tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Trooper Jhonev bashes The Avatar of War for 36 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Deathtoll crushes The Avatar of War for 31 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Deathtoll crushes The Avatar of War for 39 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vertebreaker tries to pierce The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vertebreaker tries to pierce The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Guard Svatek bashes The Avatar of War for 28 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Jafa crushes The Avatar of War for 53 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Jafa crushes The Avatar of War for 28 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Jafa tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Jafa crushes The Avatar of War for 5 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Fapp tries to pierce The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Ushiyama tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Meathookk tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Meathookk tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vabobn tries to slice The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vabobn slices The Avatar of War for 14 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vobanab tries to slice The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vobanab tries to slice The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Trooper Jhonev hits The Avatar of War for 71 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Trooper Jhonev tries to hit The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Trooper Jhonev hits The Avatar of War for 100 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Galbimaru pierces The Avatar of War for 60 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Galbimaru pierces The Avatar of War for 6 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Ratadm pierces The Avatar of War for 20 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vertebreaker pierces The Avatar of War for 12 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Vertebreaker pierces The Avatar of War for 20 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Guard Svatek hits The Avatar of War for 26 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Guard Svatek tries to hit The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:00 2023] Galbimaru pierces The Avatar of War for 57 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Ratadm pierces The Avatar of War for 17 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Deathtoll tries to slash The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Ushiyama crushes The Avatar of War for 29 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Faynes crushes The Avatar of War for 48 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Meathookk crushes The Avatar of War for 28 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Deathtoll tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Deathtoll tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Deathtoll tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Deathtoll kicks The Avatar of War for 6 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Meathookk kicks The Avatar of War for 68 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Neehai backstabs The Avatar of War for 120 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Neehai tries to backstab The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Bloodraven!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Jafa crushes The Avatar of War for 12 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Jafa crushes The Avatar of War for 33 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Jafa crushes The Avatar of War for 15 points of damage.
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] Jafa tries to crush The Avatar of War, but misses!
[Tue May 16 16:52:01 2023] The Avatar of War tries to bash YOU, but YOU parry!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I need to revise that 6 up to an 8, but it's still one flurry round. 8 round flurries are very rare but they do happen. 7 more common, 6 even more common. My understanding of the mechanics is that a flurry is up to 2 extra attacks per arm so he gets 0-4 extra swings on top of his 0-4 for a normal quad chance. As you can see, there is absolutely nothing in between the 7 and 8 swing rounds, they are not stacked rounds within the same second - they are single rounds happening instantaneously.

Thanks for the logs. I have logs of him doing 8 attacks in one second as well.

The issue is logs only show seconds as the smallest time period. This means if AoW did multiple attacks in one second, you wouldn't be able to see it in the logs.

For AoW to do 6-8 simultaneous hits, we just need to be sure he could do all of that in one attack. Wiki doesn't say what skills he has like dual wield, double attack, etc.

Most mobs have double attack, so that is an easy assumption. Not all mobs have innate dual wielding though. Not sure if mobs specifically can get triple attack either.

If AoW has triple attack or innate dual wield, then yeah he could hit 6 times simultaneously if he got 3 flurry triggers.

I think flurry is only 1 extra attack per trigger, but it can trigger off of the extra attack from double attack. It could probably trigger off of a dual wield hit too. Thats how you can get 4 attacks off of a single double attack. You hit twice via double attack, and eat hit triggers a flurry.

[Kirdan]

It's like you didn't even read, so I'll say it again. Those aren't multiple rounds within 1s, those are single rounds that are happening instantaneously. If they were multiple rounds, there would be combat spam in between them (there is an entire raid of people hitting AoW between every combat round).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's like you didn't even read, so I'll say it again. Those aren't multiple rounds within 1s, those are single rounds that are happening instantaneously. If they were multiple rounds, there would be combat spam in between them (there is an entire raid of people hitting AoW between every combat round).

I did read it.

You can't necessarily guarantee that, unless you know how the messages get ordered, filtered, and sent down to the client code-wise.

It's possible messages within a time period like a second are not strictly ordered, as a small difference between ordering wouldn't affect gameplay.

[bcbrown]

In the log provided, AoW has 7 attacks with a timestamp of 16:51:59, 0 attacks with a timestamp of 16:52:00, and 8 attacks with a timestamp of 16:52:01.

If there's no attacks with a timestamp of 16:52:00, then the delay between rounds must be greater than 1 second. If the delay between rounds is greater than one second, all the attacks within a single second must be within a single round.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In the log provided, AoW has 7 attacks with a timestamp of 16:51:59, 0 attacks with a timestamp of 16:52:00, and 8 attacks with a timestamp of 16:52:01.

If there's no attacks with a timestamp of 16:52:00, then the delay between rounds must be greater than 1 second. If the delay between rounds is greater than one second, all the attacks within a single second must be within a single round.

When programming an application thats send down logs to a client, the time stamps and ordering may not be as strict as you think they are.

If all message timestamps get rounded to the nearest second, as a simple example, you lose the actual order of the messages within that second.

This is one example of how you wouldn't see logs inbetween the attacks.

[Kirdan]

If you think the log file ordering is somehow inconsistent with the lines as they happen realtime, then I think the onus is on you to prove that. We see these rounds happen realtime - they are often the cause of unexpected tank deaths. The logs are not lying to us, they tell the same story as our melee combat in chat windows.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you think the log file ordering is somehow inconsistent with the lines as they happen realtime, then I think the onus is on you to prove that. We see these rounds happen realtime - they are often the cause of unexpected tank deaths. The logs are not lying to us, they tell the same story as our melee combat in chat windows.

Yes, tanks do die when you have 1 second CH chains, because AoW can hit 8 times in a second. I don't normally see CH chains faster than that, so it is difficult to do A B testing.

That doesn't mean all 8 hits were part of a single attack within that second, and thus you couldn't heal between them.

Since we don't know how the log order is coming in within 1 second intervals, order may not be strong enough evidence.

That's why I asked about Triple Attack and Innate Dual Wield. If he has one of those abilities, then he is certainly hitting at least 6 times simultaneously, which would prove my thought wrong that he only has double attack + flurries.

[Kirdan]

It's possible the flurry swings are 0-3 extra instead of 0-2 extra because I've found rounds with more than 8 now.

10 attacks in a single flurry round:
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War hits Deathtoll for 524 points of damage.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War tries to hit Deathtoll, but Deathtoll parries!
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War hits Deathtoll for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War tries to hit Deathtoll, but Deathtoll dodges!
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War hits Deathtoll for 456 points of damage.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War hits Deathtoll for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War tries to hit Deathtoll, but Deathtoll parries!
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War tries to hit Deathtoll, but Deathtoll parries!
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War hits Deathtoll for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War hits Deathtoll for 681 points of damage.
[Wed Sep 28 12:44:02 2022] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Deathtoll!
9 attacks in a single flurry round:
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 726 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 726 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War tries to hit Smash, but misses!
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 726 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 659 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 726 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 591 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 411 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War was burned.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War hits Smash for 726 points of damage.
[Thu Sep 29 13:21:41 2022] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Smash!

Those are the only 2 rounds I've found over 8 swings so far in dozens of AoW kills I've looked at.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's possible the flurry swings are 0-3 extra instead of 0-2 extra because I've found rounds with more than 8 now.

10 attacks in a single flurry round:

9 attacks in a single flurry round:


Those are the only 2 rounds I've found over 8 swings so far in dozens of AoW kills I've looked at.

Yeah I couldn't find any instances of more than 8 swings in my logs, so it's probably pretty rare.

I did take a look at the EQEMU server code, since I can't seem to find any websites describing precisely how many attacks Flurry gives you.

In the code I looked at, you could get up to five attacks on a flurry via your main hand attack. One from the initial attack, one from a double attack, one from a triple attack, and 1-2 from the flurry. You have to trigger both a double and triple attack to randomly roll to get a Flurry, which is an additonal attack. The second flurry attack rolls on another dice. That may explain the rarity.

Can't guarantee the code is the same on P99, but the logic is probably close enough. So AoW is probably attacking you twice, with up to 5 hits in each attack.

Still not sure if you'd have enough time to heal between the two attacks, but it looks like each attack is a new function call. You'd only get 10 hits simultaneously if the functions were both called immediately back to back. This is possible for sure, but I don't know.

[Troxx]

lmao

holy mfkin autism

I giggled when I saw him post that bullshit as well

Edit: oh Jesus … he just kept going for 2 more pages

Poor fella has no understanding of game mechanics …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I giggled when I saw him post that bullshit as well

Edit: oh Jesus … he just kept going for 2 more pages

Poor fella has no understanding of game mechanics …

As usual, Troxx contributes nothing to the thread, while making himself look foolish. Just look at his signature and location. An obvious troll.

Nobody cares that Troxx is pretending to know everything. It doesn't make you look cool.

[Croco]

Nobody cares that DSM is pretending to know everything. It doesn't make you look cool.

FTFY

[Troxx]

stuff

When a mob has a “round” all strikes hit instantly - the exact same moment. You could have 10,000 clerics all landing a complete heal every millisecond and still die if your tank doesn’t have the hp pool to survive a worst possible round.

Once again you simply do not understand the most basic concepts of EQ.

It is embarrassing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When a mob has a “round” all strikes hit instantly - the exact same moment. You could have 10,000 clerics all landing a complete heal every millisecond and still die if your tank doesn’t have the hp pool to survive a worst possible round.

Once again you simply do not understand the most basic concepts of EQ.

It is embarrassing.

As usual, you make assumptions about other peoples knowledge and attack them. You are embarassing yourself again. Nobody cares that you are pretending to know everything.

We will continue to have a normal conversation about game mechanics, while you can seethe in the corner. You continue to contribute nothing to this forum.

The question is whether or not he does two rounds in quick succession to generate 8-10 hits, or one round. If it's two in quick succession, it may be possible to heal between. Since most CH chains are 1 second in length, I don't know how much testing people have done on CHing in between seconds to test this.

It doesn't matter too much in the long run, but it is interesting to think about. You don't normally need to worry about whether or not rounds can happen in quick succession, as all other mob DPS is much lower, and AoW attacks faster than other mobs.

[Troxx]

It is one round. There is a reason we have always referred to it as “being one rounded”…. And no it doesn’t matter how tight you try to make a chain you can’t land one mid-round. Please tell me you are not literally THIS stupid.

For a mob that quads and can flurry that means a potential of 6 hits (excluding bash/kick) on a round where flurry triggers. Wiki specifically states he can hit up to 6 times and flurry. This is how EQ worked in classic. It worked that way in kunark and now on velious. It is how it continued to work in every single expansion thereafter. This is not the kind of situation that requires the services of Sherlock Holmes man … this is basic EQ game mechanics.

Or should we call the Hardly Boys to help us solve this mystery?

https://y.yarn.co/a7f4cb07-c9c4-40e1-8c42-682ee252d7f9_text.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is one round. There is a reason we have always referred to it as “being one rounded”…. And no it doesn’t matter how tight you try to make a chain you can’t land one mid-round. Please tell me you are not literally THIS stupid.

For a mob that quads and can flurry that means a potential of 6 hits (excluding bash/kick) on a round where flurry triggers. Wiki specifically states he can hit up to 6 times and flurry. This is how EQ worked in classic. It worked that way in kunark and now on velious. It is how it continued to work in every single expansion thereafter. This is not the kind of situation that requires the services of Sherlock Holmes man … this is basic EQ game mechanics.

I appreciate the herculean effort it must have taken you to try and write a normal post for once. Sadly it is still infused with nonsense and trolling, but it's an improvement! You may be redeemable.

Your post shows you are making a number of assumptions about how the mechanics work, which means you probably don't have the answers to my specific questions. That is fine, unlike yourself I do not revel in other people's lack of knowledge. Conversations help everybody learn the game better. It doesn't matter who is wrong or right.

Here are the assumptions you are making:

1. The term "one rounded" actually translates to the mechanical truth that he is doing 10 hits simultaneously. This is an assumption because CH chains are generally 1 second long on AoW. If he can do two rounds in one second, the CH chain is unable to handle that scenario, which means you could be taking two rounds within a second instead of one. This term isn't proof of anything.

2. You are assuming the wiki is correct. The flurry page doesn't tell you how many hits flurry actually gives. https://wiki.project1999.com/Flurry_(NPC_Ability)

3. People keep saying he can hit up to 6 times, but myself and Kirdan have logs of him hitting 7-10 times. Where is he getting those extra hits if he can only hit up to 6 times? Are you suggesting he gets 6 hits and flurry gives him 4 more? I haven't seen any code in the EQEMU server that supports this setup. From what I have seen, you can attack up to 3 times via triple attack, and flurry gives 1-2 more hits. This means the mob would be calling the combat round function twice. There was some code that suggested a mob could do x attacks based on a number supplied by the mob, but AoW isn't always hitting 6 times. I'd need to dig deeper to see if the number was random or constant. It doesn't seem like the 6 number is correct based on the variability of how many hits he can do within a second. Now, I am not claiming P99 code is always the same as EQEMU code, but P99 was built from that code. This means it can give insight into possible ways the code was migrated into P99.

4. You assume that P99 works the same as live, which is not always the case.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Alright, looks like I found conclusive enough evidence when delving deeper into my logs:


[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War tries to hit Pwnstarr, but Pwnstarr blocks!
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War hits Pwnstarr for 299 points of damage.
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War hits Pwnstarr for 884 points of damage.
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War tries to hit Pwnstarr, but Pwnstarr dodges!
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War tries to hit Pwnstarr, but misses!
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War hits Pwnstarr for 479 points of damage.
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War hits Pwnstarr for 1154 points of damage.
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] Pwnstarr has been slain by The Avatar of War!
[Sat May 11 16:51:08 2019] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Pwnstarr's corpse2651!


This shows AoW can hit at least 7 times simultaneously, as the Flurry message is targeting Pwnstarr's corpse. Even if the logs aren't in the exact order, this shows everything happened simultaneously. I was incorrect in my previous thought about how many attacks AoW could do in a single round.

Thank you Kirdan, Jimjam, and Snaggles for having a proper discussion about game mechanics. It's always great to learn something new through discourse.

Unfortunately Croco, Troxx, and Toxigen continue to attack people and bloat threads. Hopefully one day they will stop doing this, or at least keep it to RnF.

[Snaggles]

The little AoW thought experiment was fun but we don’t need to keep this tangent going. I’m an advocate for letting warriors tank but if I was keeping my warrior going would probably get a solid 2h and hope to never raid tank. DPS is a fun path and you need less dkp to perform well.

[Troxx]

… this shows everything happened simultaneously. I was incorrect in my previous thought about how many attacks AoW could do in a single round.

Thanks for admitting you were wrong. I do not say this sarcastically.

And yes a flurry has always been precisely 2 extra attacks. This is how it has worked for NPCs. It is how it worked for players later in the game when AA abilities let them have a chance at a flurry.

As an aside, it is nauseating to have to prove that water is wet, the earth is round … or otherwise prove the truth of well established and well known game mechanics. This game is 25 years old.

To my knowledge no player in this game fully buffed can survive a worst possible AoW round. Of those that can come closest and who can reasonably expect to survive bad rounds (mitigation, dodge/parry/etc) outside of disc … all of them are warriors.

Once Luclin went live and combat agility/stability, natural durability were in game, the dynamic did shift. Even more than better gear, these AAs meant thatwith a tight enough chain you could keep a single warrior up close to forever. It was still at PoP or beyond before AoW was considered reliably knight tankable.

—————

Back on topic: warriors are very solid dps with raid level 2handers and buffs. If they have the opportunity to blow precision disc they really shine.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for admitting you were wrong. I do not say this sarcastically.


You're welcome!


As an aside, it is nauseating to have to prove that water is wet, the earth is round … or otherwise prove the truth of well established and well known game mechanics. This game is 25 years old.


Nobody knows everything. That's why we have a forum, to discuss things and learn.

You have been factually wrong in the past on many occasions, and you troll more often than not. The trolling means it is difficult to take anything you say at face value.

If you know the mechanics well enough, simply provide some evidence like I did, instead of proclaiming you are correct and everybody else is stupid. This is what's nauseating.

Thank you for a civil reply though! I do not say that sarcastically either. You can create good posts when you aren't trolling.

[Croco]

As usual, you make assumptions about other peoples knowledge and attack them. You are embarassing yourself again. Nobody cares that you are pretending to know everything.

We will continue to have a normal conversation about game mechanics, while you can seethe in the corner. You continue to contribute nothing to this forum.

The fact that you said this with a straight face is irony on a universal scale.

Remove yourself from these forums, all your posts, everything you've ever said, and nothing of value would be lost.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fact that you said this with a straight face is irony on a universal scale.

Remove yourself from these forums, all your posts, everything you've ever said, and nothing of value would be lost.

Nobody cares about your delusions regarding me. I am sorry you are unable to lose a debate with grace, and thus resort to trolling and bloating threads to try and get back at me. Living in fantasy isn't going to solve your problems.

You've been banned from these forums before. Fix yourself before judging others please.

[Troxx]

This thread got funny on page 3.

Having said that this might be the fastest example/case of DSM being 100% completely wrong before being forced to eat his words. I mean … did we really win a devolving DSM thread in 5 pages???

https://media0.giphy.com/media/229OX0vSVNys10AZnS/200w.gif?cid=6c09b9522x1tjfg05s708er5jxpf3lhzmkvsh b2klkko8wch&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Who wants to bake the celebratory cupcakes?!

Remember that time he very assertively stated there wasn’t a fail message for FD?

(Ahem … check my sig)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This thread got funny on page 3.

Having said that this might be the fastest example/case of DSM being 100% completely wrong before being forced to eat his words. I mean … did we really win a devolving DSM thread in 5 pages???

https://media0.giphy.com/media/229OX0vSVNys10AZnS/200w.gif?cid=6c09b9522x1tjfg05s708er5jxpf3lhzmkvsh b2klkko8wch&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Who wants to bake the celebratory cupcakes?!

Remember that time he very assertively stated there wasn’t a fail message for FD?

(Ahem … check my sig)

More trolling and nonsense. You are projecting your inability to admit you are wrong on to me. There is nothing wrong with being incorrect about something, admitting you were wrong, and learning.

There is plenty of stuff you are wrong about that has been proven, and you have yet to admit you were wrong. Spreading wrong information and passing it off as fact is not a good look for you.

As I said to Croco, fix yourself first.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/9im1YQbtaw4AAAAe/we-did-a-thing-worth.png

Keep flailing.

DSMs brain has fallen to the ground

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://media.tenor.com/9im1YQbtaw4AAAAe/we-did-a-thing-worth.png

Keep flailing.

DSMs brain has fallen to the ground

Continuing to show you are a troll via posts and your location/signature isn't hurting me lol. How many years will it take for you to learn this?

Even Croco was smart enough to realize putting other people's quotes in your signature is a bad idea.

Thanks for helping me out by providing more evidence you are just a troll. I am not sure why you think anybody listens to you.

[Croco]

The unfortunate irony of DSM threads is that anyone who spends any amount of time on these forums knows to basically ignore him because he's just a troll that loves to bloat threads and very clearly doesn't understand game mechanics, often times very simple ones, but the people who are rarely on here and read his posts thinking they're going to get good information from a DSM post are the ones suffering actual harm.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The unfortunate irony of DSM threads is that anyone who spends any amount of time on these forums knows to basically ignore him because he's just a troll that loves to bloat threads and very clearly doesn't understand game mechanics, often times very simple ones, but the people who are rarely on here and read his posts thinking they're going to get good information from a DSM post are the ones suffering actual harm.

Typical projection, and the opposite is reality. You are just wasting your time with lies and nonsense. I honestly feel bad for you, as you are just a broken troll.

You were wrong about game mechanics in the past, and it seems you have never recovered from being shown you were wrong. Chill out, it's just a game.

The real danger comes from proven liars like yourself. Nobody can trust anything you say once you go down this path

As with Troxx, these posts hurt you. They don't hurt me. Maybe one day you'll learn that acting like a troll ruins your credibility.

You cannot back up any of your false claims about me by finding and citing past posts of mine. I can just point to posts like these to show you are a troll. Why do this to yourself?

[Croco]

Chill out, it's just a game. Why do this to yourself?

You should try some self reflection.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Chill out, it's just a game. Why do this to yourself?

You should try some self reflection.

I am fine. Having discussions about game mechanics is the purpose of these forums.

You are the one coming here to exclusively troll because you lost a debate about P99 a few years ago. Lying about other posters and spamming threads because you lost a debate years ago is silly.

It's time to let it go.

You can't ruin someone's reputation by trolling and lying about them. People can simply check my post history and find you are wrong if they cared enough. The only reputation you ruin by doing this is your own. Just look at Troxx, his reputation is trashed because of his trolling and lying.

You can go to RnF if you want to post nonsense. You've posted way too much nonsense here already.

[Troxx]

I think the only reputation “faction” of mine that has taken a hit is DSM specific … but it is a faction I don’t mind keeping at max KOS at this point :p

Ironically, he tends to think that there exists this unseen (or heard from) silent majority that shares his opinions or who is waiting for him to cough up knowledge nuggets. Sadly, methinks he is too obtuse to realize that this silent majority is just a figment of his imagination. The people who read here typically post. Those posts tend to fall almost solely within the categories of:

-laughing at him
-being repulsed by him
-rolling their eyes at him

The consummate adults in the room (Bcbrown is a great example) will sometimes try to educate him with an abundance of patience. Sooner or later they give up after he lashes out with an air of narcissistic pseudo-intellectualism. He’s the worst kind of stupid. He’s barely intelligent enough to think he knows things but ultimately not intelligent enough to know what he doesn’t know …

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I have watched him pull a 180 and go from talking to and kindly about a person to biting them in the face dozens of times. Sometimes he has gone from not knowing a person at all to being an absolute little bitch to them after a first post that questions him or his logic. Forever more he brands them as trolls.

It is unfortunate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think the only reputation “faction” of mine that has taken a hit is DSM specific … but it is a faction I don’t mind keeping at max KOS at this point :p

Ironically, he tends to think that there exists this unseen (or heard from) silent majority that shares his opinions or who is waiting for him to cough up knowledge nuggets. Sadly, methinks he is too obtuse to realize that this silent majority is just a figment of his imagination. The people who read here typically post. Those posts tend to fall almost solely within the categories of:

-laughing at him
-being repulsed by him
-rolling their eyes at him

The consummate adults in the room (Bcbrown is a great example) will sometimes try to educate him with an abundance of patience. Sooner or later they give up after he lashes out with an air of narcissistic pseudo-intellectualism. He’s the worst kind of stupid. He’s barely intelligent enough to think he knows things but ultimately not intelligent enough to know what he doesn’t know …

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I have watched him pull a 180 and go from talking to and kindly about a person to biting them in the face dozens of times. Sometimes he has gone from not knowing a person at all to being an absolute little bitch to them after a first post that questions him or his logic. Forever more he brands them as trolls.

It is unfortunate.

As usual, Troxx will type a lot of text, but cannot back any of it up. This is why it's easy to prove he is a liar. People can check the post history themselves.

He can't show a single occasion where I "bit someone in the face", or labeled someone a troll without cause. Defending yourself from an attack is not doing this. If you don't want someone to defend themselves, don't attack them. I am sorry your feelings were hurt because you attacked me, and expected me to roll over and take it. Typical bully mentality.

The reality is you are so difficult to talk to, people simply avoid you. It is trolls like you that discourage discussion here. They see you will just lie about them and spam threads nonsensically if they disagree with you on anything. Your post history reflects this. I can literally find hundreds of posts where you do this, even when you are wrong.

I am not sure why you champion Bcbrown either. He has actually admitted to being a troll. The post is on these forums.

That is ultimately the difference between us. I can back up my position proving you are a troll, while you can never actually show me doing the things you accuse me of.

[Troxx]

He can't show a single occasion where I "bit someone in the face", or labeled someone a troll without cause.

You did it to bcbrown when he was very patiently trying to explain the math behind your misunderstandings of the proc on your precious little hammer.

You can find at least a dozen or two (or more) instances in this thread … all 4600+ replies, half of which are yours.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

https://media1.giphy.com/media/VXdMNWVKEAGTdyszsF/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952vghqpluqa8dftqp5gpp0gvkrtl09 salg4gal45i5&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You did it to bcbrown when he was very patiently trying to explain the math behind your misunderstandings of the proc on your precious little hammer.


Bcbrown admitted he made a mistake in his calculations:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3675049&postcount=850

For all of his posting, in the end I was correct that his DPS calculations were off regarding Blight, Hammer of the Scourge.

I am not sure where you saw me "bite his face off". He wasn't always polite in that thread. If he attacked me, I defended myself.

He has also admitted to trolling me:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663707&postcount=162

Once you start trolling, it's difficult to know when you are being sincere.


You can find at least a dozen or two (or more) instances in this thread … all 4600+ replies, half of which are yours.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923


I am not sure why you keep linking that thread as a whole to hurt me. You literally have hundreds of posts there showing you are a troll. Silly gifs, calling people autistic, etc.

Thanks for providing the evidence you are a troll in your own "rebuttal".

Linking an entire thread is not a specific instance of me doing anything you claim. Nobody is going to go through that entire thread to try and find what you are accusing me of.

Give specific posts of mine.

What other evidence do you have?

[Troxx]

Oh geez, DSM, I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you think I was trolling yesterday. I got a little frustrated towards the end of the evening, and I was intemperate. I apologize.

He didn’t admit to trolling. The nuance here isn’t even subtle. He apologized for losing his temper with you.

Do words often confuse you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He didn’t admit to trolling. The nuance here isn’t even subtle. He apologized for losing his temper with you.

Do words often confuse you?

It was in the PM he sent aftwrwards:

I'd like to follow up with a personal apology. I did not mean to troll you yesterday. I got intemperate at the end, and I regret that. I'm sorry. As I said publicly, I truly do like you.

I don't like the people who use personal insults. I don't engage with those people. You don't do that, and I admire that about you.

I hope you can accept this apology.

I accepted his apology at the time, but it shows he is willing to do this when he gets angry.

So, where is your specific evidence about me?

[bcbrown]

What a world we live in, where someone can think "I didn't mean to troll you" is an admission of trolling.

I stand by what I said. I am a little bothered you chose to publicize a private message without my consent, but that's more than outweighed by the fact that what you quoted demonstrates my exemplary character, as when you seemed hurt by my words I responded with both a public and a private apology.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What a world we live in, where someone can think "I didn't mean to troll you" is an admission of trolling.

I stand by what I said. I am a little bothered you chose to publicize a private message without my consent, but that's more than outweighed by the fact that what you quoted demonstrates my exemplary character, as when you seemed hurt by my words I responded with both a public and a private apology.

The PM is the same as your public apology, just with a bit more truth to what you did. I appreciate your honestly about it, and accepted your apology at the time.

You have demonstrated attacks on me multiple times on these forums in the same pattern of behvaior. I can post them if you like. Pretending like you don't randomly attack/troll me is not possible at this point.

[bcbrown]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I am sorry you feel the need to attack other people when having a discussion, instead of sticking to the facts and logic in a reasonable manner.

[Troxx]

So just to recap:

-an honest discussion was happening
-DSM said something stupid
-multiple people told him he was wrong
-he argued back obtusely
-after donning his lab coat to prove that water isn’t wet he realized he did yet another whoopsie
-?????
-here we all still are

Lots of people who are not trolls have engaged in making fun of specifically you … and only you. You being the target of ridicule is your own fault. You reap what you sow.

[Vexenu]

This forum is populated by hundreds of vicious trolls and one man of sterling reputation, extraordinary game knowledge and unimpeachable character: DeathsSilkyMist.*











*This post was sponsored by DeathsSilkyMist.

[Troxx]

Lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So just to recap:

-an honest discussion was happening
-DSM said something stupid
-multiple people told him he was wrong
-he argued back obtusely
-after donning his lab coat to prove that water isn’t wet he realized he did yet another whoopsie
-?????
-here we all still are

Lots of people who are not trolls have engaged in making fun of specifically you … and only you. You being the target of ridicule is your own fault. You reap what you sow.

As you can see, Troxx still cannot provide even one post showing me doing anything he is accused me of, which I asked for earlier. He keeps deflecting and posting more nonsense.

Instead, he goes back to his old nonsensical idea that: " If someone is being attacked, they must have deserved it". Typical bully mentality. He cannot concieve of the notion that people do not talk to him because they don't want to be harassed by him.

Here is Troxx admitting to trolling by the way:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.


He also admits that he agrees there are other people trolling. He disproves his own argument that people are attacking me because "I deserve it" lol.

[Troxx]

Lots of people who are not trolls have engaged in making fun of specifically you … and only you. You being the target of ridicule is your own fault. You reap what you sow.

YOU get trolled by people who are generally not trolls.

The problem is and has always been you man.

There is not an intelligent way to approach you. If anyone wants a masterclass on why DSM gets picked on so much … just read this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

It is epic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

YOU get trolled by people who are generally not trolls.

The problem is and has always been you man.

There is not an intelligent way to approach you. If anyone wants a masterclass on why DSM gets picked on so much … just read this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

It is epic.

As you can see, Troxx has no specific examples of me doing what he is accusing me of, and he has admitted to being a troll. He has also admitted that he agrees other people are trolling too.

People do not engage with him because they have seen his behavior, and do not wish to be harassed. His reputation is completely trashed, and he is discouraging people from posting here.

You reap what you sow indeed.

The only thing he can do is post a large thread without a specific post of mine. This thread simply shows Troxx posting hundreds of gifs, calling people autistic, etc. He only provides more evidence of his trolling and thinks that is an intelligent move.

[Troxx]

As you can see...

https://y.yarn.co/144f16f2-c6dd-40d9-a5b7-9d51742aed49_text.gif

Ironically, he tends to think that there exists this unseen (or heard from) silent majority that shares his opinions or who is waiting for him to cough up knowledge nuggets. Sadly, methinks he is too obtuse to realize that this silent majority is just a figment of his imagination.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx doesn't seem to understand the basic concept of a forum. Other people can read this thread. It is not exclusively read by the posters.

[Troxx]

Yes, any class can survive AoW with enough Clerics. If you don't understand the basic math there, that's on you.

https://i.gifer.com/31i.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When Troxx has lost a debate, his default behavior goes back to posting silly gifs. It is very predictable.

He cannot provide examples of me doing what he has accused me of, while admitting to being a troll. He also admits there are other trolls, which ruins his idea that I am simply calling other people trolls on a whim.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.


He thinks that any mistake made on this forum is a trophy he can wear. Just look at his signature. And he wonders why people avoid him. Why would anyone want to deal with that level of childishness?

Thank you for conceeding.

[Toxigen]

Glad you boys had a great weekend debating with the Almighty DSM.

This guy has never once clutched a long AoW with a soulfire / reaper / bump. He's a wall-licker wannabe "raider." Its ok, every guild needs people like DSM. Just stay on the pad in VP and wait til you're called up for the clean pull, its ok.

Even BiS 7k HP warriors can be close to 1-rounded on AoW, thats why you have a reaper list. Even an instant chain can fail due to latency / human error. When I played it was a pretty big deal to "1 tank" AoW. It meant your reaper list was on point and your raid damage was utterly insane. Sooner or later, AoW is gonna one round ya.

But GAAAIIIZ! My paper napkin math says clerics can tank AoW! I read the wiki I see the numbers!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Glad you boys had a great weekend debating with the Almighty DSM.

This guy has never once clutched an AoW with a soulfire / reaper. He's a wall-licker wannabe "raider."

Even 7k HP warriors can be close to 1-rounded on AoW, thats why you have a reaper list. Even an instant chain can fail due to latency / human error.

But GAAAIIIZ! My paper napkin math says clerics can tank AoW!

I admitted to making a mistake regarding how AoW's rounds work. There is nothing wrong with admitting a mistake. Due to CH chains being a second long on average for AoW, they wouldn't cover AoW doing two rounds in one second if he could do that.

I've done quite a few AoW's as a chain healer or main Torpor Shaman, so I understand how the encounter works. I find it strange you think the CH chain is simply for "wall lickers", as the Warrior can't tank AoW without it lol. Soulfire and Reaper won't save a tank that has no CH chain.

This was a thought experiement regarding other classes tanking AoW, which nobody attempts. Due to the competitive nature of AoW, people wouldn't do it anyway unless they were desparate. There is nothing wrong with discussion.

My main point was about damage shield damage anyway. Every class does roughly the same damage shield damage when getting hit. Warriors aren't special in this regard.

It's interesting that when Troxx says something obviously wrong, you are silent on the matter:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3686564&postcount=546

I have a NTOV 60 paladin and a 60 Frostreaver warrior.

The paladin and warrior can both solo easy shit. They both lock aggro equally well.


Where is your outrage that Troxx doesn't understand basic game mechanics like spell agro? Why is this not in your signature? A Paladin isn't "equal" to a Warrior in agro generation, Paladins can generate agro at will via spells. They can wear Frostreaver too.

It's quite obvious, you are choosing who to troll. You have no standards where you attack everybody equally.

And you wonder why people attack me disproportionately.

[Troxx]

And you wonder why people attack me disproportionately.

https://y.yarn.co/6f148540-13e9-44dd-b260-308f04acd296_text.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://y.yarn.co/6f148540-13e9-44dd-b260-308f04acd296_text.gif

More gifs. He's lost the debate. Troxx cannot rebut anything said. Nor is he admitting he is wrong about Paladin and Warrior agro generation.

Thanks for continuing to show you are just a troll.

[Troxx]

There never was an actual debate here buddy. You said any class can tank AoW with enough clerics. Multiple people told you were wrong. You doubled down. We all laughed.

Stop sperging up this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There never was an actual debate here buddy. You said any class can tank AoW with enough clerics. Multiple people told you were wrong. You doubled down. We all laughed.

Stop sperging up this thread.

You are the one "sperging" the thread. Troxx continues to refuse to admit he was wrong about Knight/Warrior agro, he cannot supply any examples of posts to back up his accusations against me, and he has admitted he is a troll. He also acknowledges other trolls exist.

I admitted I was wrong, and the only people who cannot move on from this are desparate trolls like yourself. Just take a look at your signature. If you want to lie and rant about other posters, keep it to RnF please.

Nobody cares about your troll posts and attempts derail threads. This is another Troxx and friends thread unfortunately. If you don't attack other posters, they don't need to defend themselves. Learn some self control.

[Troxx]

Flailing again are we?

Tsk tsk

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Flailing again are we?

Tsk tsk

Not at all. You still have three points you are purposely dodging, and everybody can see your cowardice:

1. You are an admitted troll, and you agree other trolls exist. This ruins multiple nonsensical lies you keep spouting.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.


2. You still cannot find any posts that I have made which support your accusations against me.

3. You were wrong about Knight/Warrior agro, which you still haven't admitted to. This shows you are the one unable to admit you are wrong, while also showing you don't know everything. It's ok that you don't know everything, you do not have to project your inability about admitting you are wrong on to other posters.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3686564&postcount=546


I have a NTOV 60 paladin and a 60 Frostreaver warrior.

The paladin and warrior can both solo easy shit. They both lock aggro equally well.


Ideally you stop spamming this thread, but you've lost the debate thus far regarding your lies about me.

When you are backed into a corner like this, you always end up deflecting and running away.

[Croco]

When you are backed into a corner like this, you always end up deflecting and running away.

Better than what you do. Constantly post and recheck every thread and make sure you get the last post and flood every thread with so many posts that they become completely unusable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Better than what you do. Constantly post and recheck every thread and make sure you get the last post and flood every thread with so many posts that they become completely unusable.

You don't understand the basic concept of how cause and effect works it seems.

If trolls like yourself do not attack other posters, then said posters do not need to defend themselves.

I never start this, you can check all of the Troxx and friends threads.

If you don't want thread bloat, then don't troll. Talk you your fellow trolls and tell them not to troll too.

You do not have the right to troll and spread lies in random threads with impunity. I am sorry you are fragile enough to think so.

You've been banned before, and multiple posts you have made that I have responded to in the past were deleted. Reflect on your own behavior before talking about others.

[Croco]

Bloat

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bloat

When you attack other posters, expect a post in response. You are indeed responsible for the bloat. Fix youself and talk to your fellow trolls if you wish to resolve the issue.

[Croco]

I am indeed responsible for the bloat. I am incapable of fixing myself and my entire identity as a person is wrapped up in all the posts I make on these forums. The issues will never resolve because I don't want them to.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Croco's delusions are getting worse I fear. He is now inventing quotes out of thin air. I feel sorry for him to be honest. He can only provide nonsense posts now, due to losing a debate years ago.

He cannot even comprehend basic logic like causr and effect. He will continue to attack posters and bloat threads unfortuntately. Hopefully he recovers one day.

[Croco]

Croco's delusions are getting worse I fear. He is now inventing quotes out of thin air. I feel sorry for him to be honest. He can only provide nonsense posts now, due to losing a debate years ago.

It's the words you should say if you were ever self reflective and honest enough to do so, but sadly that day will never come.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's the words you should say if you were ever self reflective and honest enough to do so, but sadly that day will never come.

As you can see, Croco's delusions about me continue to persist. He is a broken record now, and will simply bloat threads with more delusions.

Again, I feel sorry for him. He will waste his time lying about other posters, instead of being productive.

[Croco]

As you can see, Croco's delusions about me continue to persist. He is a broken record now, and will simply bloat threads with more delusions.

Who will bloat more? Should we count how many posts we each have in this thread when it's inevitably locked? Bet you win.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Who will bloat more? Should we count how many posts we each have in this thread when it's inevitably locked? Bet you win.

You are the one bloating this thread with lies and delusions. You started it, so you tell me when you want to stop.

[Croco]

You are the one bloating this thread with lies and delusions. You started it, so you tell me when you want to stop.

How about you just stop posting in this thread completely. You've already made all the correct posts and arguments right? Surely anyone will be able to come along and see the merits of everything you've said and be able to sus out that everyone else is just a troll right? So there's no need for you to keep going, right?

Bet you will though.

[Toxigen]

sips coffee and smiles

[Troxx]

#popcorn

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How about you just stop posting in this thread completely. You've already made all the correct posts and arguments right? Surely anyone will be able to come along and see the merits of everything you've said and be able to sus out that everyone else is just a troll right? So there's no need for you to keep going, right?

Bet you will though.

It looks like you want to stop posting, as you didn't attack anyone this time.

You shouldn't have posted here at all, since your intent was simply to troll and bloat the thread. You have zero on-topic posts. Next time learn some self control. Remember that you have been banned before due to your behavior.

You can have the last post if you wish. If it doesn't attack anyone, I won't respond to you further in this thread.

Thank you for taking responsibility for the thread bloat, and seeking to stop it. That is some progress towards your rehabilitation I hope.

[Snaggles]

I actually think DSM did a great job on the 2nd post of the thread. Granted, these are certainly best case scenarios (warrior zerking and not dying, avatar ranger BFG, etc) but shows a similar level of geared toons.

About a page later people clarified that generally it’s rogue > monk > warrior/ranger which more or less is accurate. As warriors need to be using non-tank weapons and forfeiting a defensive disc timer it is rare they pop into the lead on a parse outside damage shield dps. It’s even more rare to be zerking. 120+ dps, on the edge of blood aggro, no way to dump thread…roll the dice.

While there are a lot of BFG’s still in use it’s another edge-case. Legacy weapon, needing 8dmg arrows to shine, suffer a 72 min CD which is generally saved to bump. A lot can happen in 72 mins on a quake so while I’ve burned mine gleefully on Vindi those 72 minutes after aren’t exactly comforting as you wait to reset it.

The monk vs rogue game is odd. Clearly a rogue has a leg-up in terms of ease to get to a solid level, 30k Epic MQ and you are a beast. Monks need a lot of help to close that gap. Usually there is peppered “but they can tank/solo/pull” added to disclaim the difference. Mend is nice for AoE fights and all that. In the end though one class is more purpose built than the rest because outside picking locks and a slick invis mechanic they are a single purpose tool and very efficient. If you are talking ONLY DPS the rest of the stuff while helping justify your choice is just a red herring.

The rest of this thread doesn’t need to keep going. The AoW thing could have been a quick retraction. This isn’t court, admitting you might be (or are) wrong is a quick solution to a problem. The rest of the pages are just a train wreck, nobody needs to keep this going and while some may be more or less to blame it’s a shared experience.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I actually think DSM did a great job on the 2nd post of the thread. Granted, these are certainly best case scenarios (warrior zerking and not dying, avatar ranger BFG, etc) but shows a similar level of geared toons.

About a page later people clarified that generally it’s rogue > monk > warrior/ranger which more or less is accurate. As warriors need to be using non-tank weapons and forfeiting a defensive disc timer it is rare they pop into the lead on a parse outside damage shield dps. It’s even more rare to be zerking. 120+ dps, on the edge of blood aggro, no way to dump thread…roll the dice.

While there are a lot of BFG’s still in use it’s another edge-case. Legacy weapon, needing 8dmg arrows to shine, suffer a 72 min CD which is generally saved to bump. A lot can happen in 72 mins on a quake so while I’ve burned mine gleefully on Vindi those 72 minutes after aren’t exactly comforting as you wait to reset it.

The monk vs rogue game is odd. Clearly a rogue has a leg-up in terms of ease to get to a solid level, 30k Epic MQ and you are a beast. Monks need a lot of help to close that gap. Usually there is peppered “but they can tank/solo/pull” added to disclaim the difference. Mend is nice for AoE fights and all that. In the end though one class is more purpose built than the rest because outside picking locks and a slick invis mechanic they are a single purpose tool and very efficient. If you are talking ONLY DPS the rest of the stuff while helping justify your choice is just a red herring.

The rest of this thread doesn’t need to keep going. The AoW thing could have been a quick retraction. This isn’t court, admitting you might be (or are) wrong is a quick solution to a problem. The rest of the pages are just a train wreck, nobody needs to keep this going and while some may be more or less to blame it’s a shared experience.

Agreed!

[Troxx]

I actually think DSM did a great job on the 2nd post of the thread.

Yes he did. Unfortunately, he didn’t stop there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes he did. Unfortunately, he didn’t stop there.

You and the trolls didn't stop there. Having a discussion about game mechanics is normal, regardless of who is right or wrong. Attacking other posters is not, and is against the forum rules. Do you want to continue bloating the thread via more attacks?

[Troxx]

Yes, any class can survive AoW with enough Clerics. If you don't understand the basic math there, that's on you.

You weren’t just 100% wrong you also insinuated you understood some imaginary math that doesn’t exist.

Can we get back on topic and stay there?

Jesus.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You weren’t just 100% wrong you also insinuated you understood some imaginary math that doesn’t exist.

Can we get back on topic and stay there?

Jesus.

We can get back on topic when you stop trolling and acting like a child. You keep forgetting that yourself and your fellow trolls derailed the thread to begin with by attacking people.

You have also been 100% wrong while insinuating your experience matters more than math. This was with the JBB argument. I proved that you were wrong about leveling with JBB, yet you continue to post things that aren't true about JBB. The difference between us is I admit when I am wrong.

[Troxx]

You attacked another poster (Toxigen) who was correct citing your understanding of “math” that he didn’t comprehend. It was a childish attack … and extraordinarily idiotic given that you were wrong.

YOU derailed this thread like you always do. Please for the love of god just tuck your tail, walk away, and cut it out.

This is why we call shenanigans like this DSM threads. You always do it. Quit ruining threads.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You attacked another poster (Toxigen) who was correct citing your understanding of “math” that he didn’t comprehend. It was a childish attack … and extraordinarily idiotic given that you were wrong.

YOU derailed this thread like you always do. Please for the love of god just tuck your tail, walk away, and cut it out.

This is why we call shenanigans like this DSM threads. You always do it. Quit ruining threads.

If you think disagreeing with someone is an attack, you are a very silly person lol.

This is not an attack:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687309&postcount=32

Yes, any class can survive AoW with enough Clerics. If you don't understand the basic math there, that's on you.

Warriors enable lower cleric kills, which is more ideal since single guilds generally can't field enough clerics to facilitate an any class tanking scenario.

I was a bit annoyed at Toxigen's initial attack, I admit. This is the post I was repesponding to. Toxigen started attacking first, and I was on the defensive. The post above is #32, and this is #31:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687306&postcount=31

the fuck are you talking about?

this is going in my sig, thanks

every time you make some bullshit post im gonna chime in with a "see sig"

These are also attacks, which further derailed/bloated the thread:

lmao

holy mfkin autism

I giggled when I saw him post that bullshit as well

Edit: oh Jesus … he just kept going for 2 more pages

Poor fella has no understanding of game mechanics …

You really need to take a look at the post history before making a fool of yourself. Do you now understand why I call you a liar? You make things up and assert them as true, even when they are trivial to disprove.

I did admit I was wrong about AoW when I discovered I was wrong. That is the difference between us. You won't admit you were wrong by accusing me of derailing the thread, when the post history shows otherwise.

Toxigen started derailing the thread by attacking me, you and Croco piled on later.

I never start this lol. Learn some self awareness please.

[Croco]

Thanks for proving me right.

[Toxigen]

see sig

[DeathsSilkyMist]

see sig

Indeed. Only trolls put other people's quotes in their signature to try and discredit them. Marking yourself as a troll simply ruins your credibility, which undermines what you are trying to accomplish.

Thanks for making it easier for people to ignore your nonsense. I'll happily be telling people to look at your signature. It says a lot more about you than it says about me.

Only Croco has been smart enough to realize this, to his credit. He did the same thing at one point, but has since removed it. Hopefully it was of his own volition, and not part of his ban.

I actually think DSM did a great job on the 2nd post of the thread. Granted, these are certainly best case scenarios (warrior zerking and not dying, avatar ranger BFG, etc) but shows a similar level of geared toons.

About a page later people clarified that generally it’s rogue > monk > warrior/ranger which more or less is accurate. As warriors need to be using non-tank weapons and forfeiting a defensive disc timer it is rare they pop into the lead on a parse outside damage shield dps. It’s even more rare to be zerking. 120+ dps, on the edge of blood aggro, no way to dump thread…roll the dice.

While there are a lot of BFG’s still in use it’s another edge-case. Legacy weapon, needing 8dmg arrows to shine, suffer a 72 min CD which is generally saved to bump. A lot can happen in 72 mins on a quake so while I’ve burned mine gleefully on Vindi those 72 minutes after aren’t exactly comforting as you wait to reset it.

The monk vs rogue game is odd. Clearly a rogue has a leg-up in terms of ease to get to a solid level, 30k Epic MQ and you are a beast. Monks need a lot of help to close that gap. Usually there is peppered “but they can tank/solo/pull” added to disclaim the difference. Mend is nice for AoE fights and all that. In the end though one class is more purpose built than the rest because outside picking locks and a slick invis mechanic they are a single purpose tool and very efficient. If you are talking ONLY DPS the rest of the stuff while helping justify your choice is just a red herring.

The rest of this thread doesn’t need to keep going. The AoW thing could have been a quick retraction. This isn’t court, admitting you might be (or are) wrong is a quick solution to a problem. The rest of the pages are just a train wreck, nobody needs to keep this going and while some may be more or less to blame it’s a shared experience.

This is a good stopping point, assuming Troxx, Toxigen, and Croco are finished bloating and derailing the thread. This is another Troxx and friends thread unfortunately. They decide when the nonsense ends. This post shows how the derailment started: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687634&postcount=131

[Snaggles]

You weren’t just 100% wrong you also insinuated you understood some imaginary math that doesn’t exist.

Can we get back on topic and stay there?

Jesus.

Yes he did. Unfortunately, he didn’t stop there.

We were so close.

[Toxigen]

This week DSM finally learns what a flurry mob is, busting all napkin math based off the wiki.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This week DSM finally learns what a flurry mob is, busting all napkin math based off the wiki.

Incorrect. The number of attacks that flurry gives is what I was looking into, as I've never actually thought about it. I had assumptions that turned out to be false. You simply see the results of X attacks in the log. This is both the normal attacks, and the flurry attacks mixed together. For something that is supposedly common knowledge, it isn't written down anywhere that is easy to google. The P99 wiki doesn't say how many attacks flurry gives https://wiki.project1999.com/Flurry_(NPC_Ability) .

There is also no proof that you knew this information beforehand. It's easy to learn something new and pretend you knew it all along. Look at his signature for proof he is a troll. This kind of tactic is normal for trolls.

Remember that Kirdan and I provided proof, while you simply asserted you were correct without evidence. You need to understand the mechanics of the game to be able to provide evidence for how it works, even when it disproves your previous thoughts.

You rarely provide evidence for you claims, so it's easy to question how much you actually know, verses simply assuming you are correct, and attacking everyone who disagrees. You have a proven track record of attacking people who disagree with you. You derailed this very thread with such tactics https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687634&postcount=131 .

[Alarria]

Man, as someone who has always played casters, I thought wow! A 14 page thread comparing melee dps. Yeah....too good to be true. If it makes me a troll also, then whatever. But Deathsilkymist, sometimes it's better to just stop. I get having the last word, but you (and yes the people who like making you angry to keep you going) really do shit up really good threads. Please don't quote or respond to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Man, as someone who has always played casters, I thought wow! A 14 page thread comparing melee dps. Yeah....too good to be true. If it makes me a troll also, then whatever. But Deathsilkymist, sometimes it's better to just stop. I get having the last word, but you (and yes the people who like making you angry to keep you going) really do shit up really good threads. Please don't quote or respond to me.

I do not care about the last word. Allowing trolls to post lies and false information will not improve the situation. You'll just get threads full of false information.

I have proof showing Troxx, Toxigen, and Croco derailed the thread. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687634&postcount=131

If you care about fixing the problem, talk to them. They will continue to bloat threads, even if I disappeared, because they are the problem. I never start this. they'll just find a new target.

I understand you don't want to be targeted by them, so you ask me to stop instead. Sadly that will not stop the problem, you are asking the wrong person. Cause and effect. When trolls don't attack posters, posters don't defend themselves.

[Alarria]

I didn't ask you to do anything, other than not respond or quote me, both of which you did regardless. I don't care who "targets me" on a game forum I've posted on 100 times in 13 years. Why would anyone care what an anonymous person says about you on a emulated game forum? I'm saying that sometimes, it's fun to read about a game without having to see huge quoted posts full of stuff irrelevant to the original topic. You, and they, are the cause. However, if you did have the grace to stop, the "trolls" would have no ammo.

Regardless, please don't reply. I'm just stating something.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't ask you to do anything, other than not respond or quote me, both of which you did regardless. I don't care who "targets me" on a game forum I've posted on 100 times in 13 years. Why would anyone care what an anonymous person says about you on a emulated game forum? I'm saying that sometimes, it's fun to read about a game without having to see huge quoted posts full of stuff irrelevant to the original topic. You, and they, are the cause. However, if you did have the grace to stop, the "trolls" would have no ammo.

Regardless, please don't reply. I'm just stating something.

I honestly don't care about the insults. Posters like Troxx have provided factually false information after being proven wrong, and have asserted it to be true to troll other posters. Toxigen and other trolls reinforce this information, giving the illusion of consensus. That's a real problem if you enjoy having discussions about game mechanics in an honest and open way.

When you have a bunch of trolls bullying people into submission, discussion shuts down. Nobody bothers posting, as they will just be attacked by the mob.

If you really care about seeing interesting game mechanic discussions happen organically in an honest and open way, you cannot allow this kind of behavior. All I can do is point out this behavior, and hope that other people step up to keep these forums alive.

I appreciate Snaggles doing just that. Thank you! Jimjam and Kirdan were also great in this thread.

[Troxx]

This week DSM finally learns what a flurry mob is, busting all napkin math based off the wiki.

:p

[Alarria]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go. Let this rest. Here, I'll help move on:

For DPS, what is a greater contributing factor, given similar gear levels? Better worn haste, or better damage/delay on weapons? I have never played anything but casters, and don't understand the math really. Like 36% haste vs 41%, or 5 more base damage or 5 less delay. I do want to learn. I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go.

I appreciate your opinion. I am giving you mine. Letting the trolls run rampant is the problem, whether you agree with that or not.

If you want to solve the problem, talk to the trolls. If you don't, then you will unfortunately see this issue continue. They will not stop if I leave, they will simply find a new target. That is how they operate.


For DPS, what is a greater contributing factor, given similar gear levels? Better worn haste, or better damage/delay on weapons? I have never played anything but casters, and don't understand the math really. Like 36% haste vs 41%, or 5 more base damage or 5 less delay. I do want to learn. I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)


An easy starting point is weapon ratios.

Lets look at a cracked staff. 5 damage, 32 delay.

You divide 5/32 to get the ratio of 0.156

Haste reduces the delay of the weapon. An FBSS has 21% worn haste. If you divide 32 by 1.21, you get a new delay of 26.44.

Your cracked staff's ratio is now 5/26.44 = 0.189.

You can do these calculatuons with whatever weapon. Bigger ratio is generally better.

[Troxx]

Must … always … post … last ……

[bcbrown]

I am leveling a monk whos 53 with a T-staff, and its faster and has a great proc, but with the same haste (CocW) why is it more dps than a 38/40? I know that 0.966 is > than 0.95, but it seems that max hits would be more. Is there a calculating best dps for dummies? =)

When thinking about melee damage you need to incorporate the additional bonus damage added when at high levels. I also mostly play casters, so I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage is helpful.

Here's how I think of it. First, adjust the delay for haste: new delay = old delay / (1 + haste percentage). Second, weapons can generally hit for twice the stated value, so double the damage. Then, add a level-based damage modifier for main hand; wiki suggests it would be 8 or 9 for your level. That's the actual ratio you should be optimizing for.

So, if you have 36% haste and are comparing a 29/30 and a 38/40, the haste makes them 29/22 and 38/28. Doubling the damage and adding 9 gets you 38/22 and 47/28. So the final ratios are 1.72 and 1.68.

This calculation is just for example's sake, as I don't know the actual damage bonus values, and I believe they can be different for 1h and 2h weapons.

I think the other two important considerations is that the damage bonus only applies to main-hand weapon, and that off-hand weapon procs are half the rate of main-hand procs.

[Croco]

You continue to reply to my posts despite me asking you not to, lol. Whatever. However, you are the target of the trolls. I have never been attacked, and VERY rarely in 13 years of lurking and reading have I seen others attacked in normal gameplay conversations. Honestly, these forums have seen less of good discussion with these "DSM" threads. Good honest questions, good answers mostly, then you post, and it's usually fine. However, once you are disagreed with, you begin trying to refute anything that is contrary to what you're saying. Which makes people want to laugh, point and troll. Then the thread devolves into exactly this.

This is just an opinion. You DO NOT have to respond to it, quoting me and then continuing to be the white knight of saving these forums. If you truly care, let it go. Let this rest...

Don't be too hard on him he can't help himself. He desperately needs to get the last word. If his posts about game mechanics and math were so good and correct a normal person wouldn't feel the need to keep defending and reiterating over and over and over. He would just let his work stand for itself and trust that discerning readers would realize the correctness of his posts, but he can't do that. Whether it's compulsion from any number of underlying causes or because he knows deep down he's just spouting garbage but is unwilling or unable to let things rest I don't think we'll ever know.

Don't worry DSM I knew you wouldn't drop things and stop posting. You can't help yourself. I'd say it's all good but it really isn't. You're a very large net negative on these forums.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't be too hard on him he can't help himself. He desperately needs to get the last word. If his posts about game mechanics and math were so good and correct a normal person wouldn't feel the need to keep defending and reiterating over and over and over. He would just let his work stand for itself and trust that discerning readers would realize the correctness of his posts, but he can't do that. Whether it's compulsion from any number of underlying causes or because he knows deep down he's just spouting garbage but is unwilling or unable to let things rest I don't think we'll ever know.

Don't worry DSM I knew you wouldn't drop things and stop posting. You can't help yourself. I'd say it's all good but it really isn't. You're a very large net negative on these forums.

Croco's delusions continue to haunt him. He doesn't understand every single post he has made in this thread is off topic, and completely worthless.

Somehow he thinks bloating threads with posts that are just random words makes him look good, and me look bad.

If you care about the health of the forum, stop acting like a crazy person who will relentlessly attack all posters who disagree with yoi. It's a bad look.

[Croco]

Oh see that's where we differ. I know my posts are worthless. You can't seem to ever see it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know my posts are worthless.

You have your answer then. Stop bloating threads with posts you know are worthless.

If you don't attack me with a worthless post, I don't post in response. The solution is obvious, and it's within your control!

For every worthless post you don't make, you will have saved the thread two posts.

If you think I am wrong about something, make a post using logic and evidence. As you keep saying, the readers can make up their own minds. You may find that your posts will become worthwhile! Everybody can be given a second chance. I do not block you because I have seen you post normally in the past. You are just in a bad slump right now for some reason.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is what kittens is all about now, i feel bad for them. Join kittens and be with DSM

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is what kittens is all about now, i feel bad for them. Join kittens and be with DSM

This is another confirmed troll:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634510&postcount=367

I troll lot but even I tried having a normal conversation with some good info based on my experience with gear. Sta is not as easy to max on a DE. If I went int I’d be in a super hole. Even atm I need like vulak bracer to cap with 1h.

Edit: all he did was shit on it even tho I showed what I have

He did try to have a normal conversation, but couldn't accept any outcome other than he must be correct.

He will post messages occasionally to try and attack posters. They are always ignored.

Troxx is actually trying to get the last post, while accusing other people of trying to get the last post. The mental gymnastics are next level.

[Troxx]

Must … always … post … last ……

[Duik]

Boop boop.

[Croco]

You have your answer then. Stop bloating threads with posts you know are worthless.

If you don't attack me with a worthless post, I don't post in response. The solution is obvious, and it's within your control!

For every worthless post you don't make, you will have saved the thread two posts.

If you think I am wrong about something, make a post using logic and evidence. As you keep saying, the readers can make up their own minds. You may find that your posts will become worthwhile! Everybody can be given a second chance. I do not block you because I have seen you post normally in the past. You are just in a bad slump right now for some reason.

So you're saying that I have power over you. Any time I want I can make you dance like my own personal monkey. Dance DSM, come post. Dance monkey, dance!

Your worst trait is the undeniable urge to respond to people you perceive as trolls. If your posts are so good and true and golden and correct you would let them stand on their own. Either you think the average reader who might benefit from your posts are too dumb to differentiate between your golden wisdom and malicious trolling, you know you're full of it (I think you definitely have a high view of yourself so I discount this option), or you have a compulsion/ocd/other mental illness that prevents you from being able to resist responding.

If you look around the forums there are plenty of other people who don't respond to trolls. Ramen and I use to be at each others throats pretty often until I grew as a person and just learned to ignore him the vast majority of the time. I wonder why you're unable to grow in a similar way. Your post count and how you got there is very embarrassing.

[Vexenu]

DSM is the ultimate forum troll, he lacks fundamental knowledge of EverQuest and rumors persist that he has a transvestite alter-ego named Madeline.

DSM, or Madeline, I insist that you do not quote or reply to this post.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So you're saying that I have power over you. Any time I want I can make you dance like my own personal monkey. Dance DSM, come post. Dance monkey, dance!

Your worst trait is the undeniable urge to respond to people you perceive as trolls. If your posts are so good and true and golden and correct you would let them stand on their own. Either you think the average reader who might benefit from your posts are too dumb to differentiate between your golden wisdom and malicious trolling, you know you're full of it (I think you definitely have a high view of yourself so I discount this option), or you have a compulsion/ocd/other mental illness that prevents you from being able to resist responding.

If you look around the forums there are plenty of other people who don't respond to trolls. Ramen and I use to be at each others throats pretty often until I grew as a person and just learned to ignore him the vast majority of the time. I wonder why you're unable to grow in a similar way. Your post count and how you got there is very embarrassing.

More delusional nonsense. You clearly haven't grown at all. You have simply put me in Ramen's place, and are now attacking me instead. I am amazed that you think that attacking me is somehow a sign of your growth lol

You aren't hurting me at all. Your insults and lies mean nothing to me. They do not hurt me or my reputation.

The only thing your are doing is hurting yourself and these forums. I am still amazed that trolls do not understand this basic concept. You aren't ruining the reputation of the people you are trolling, you are runing your own reputation and the forum's reputation.

Personally I don't want to see these forums die because of the abhorrent behavior from posters like you.

You are spreading false information, bloating threads to unreadability, and driving people away from the forums because they do not want to be attacked by you. That is how you kill a forum. Is that your intention? That is the only thing you are accomplishing by acting unhinged.

[Croco]

I appreciate you confirming I have power over you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate you confirming I have power over you.

You only posted because I did. You only started posting in this thread to begin with because I did. Remember that all of your posts are off-topic. You wouldn't be posting here if it wasn't for me.

It seems like you have things backwards. It is you who are enslaved to your delusions about me, which is why you must compulsively post here.

That is why I said you have the power to stop. Everybody can see that you are enslaved to your obsession over me. I hope that you can see that one day too. You'll stop posting worthless posts, and perhaps get back to posting worthwhile ones. I hope to see that day.

[Croco]

If you don't attack me with a worthless post, I don't post in response. The solution is obvious, and it's within your control!

For every worthless post you don't make, you will have saved the thread two posts.

I didn't attack you. You replied anyways. Confirming that I have the power to cause you to post. Living in your head rent free as it were. I appreciate you confirming that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't attack you. You replied anyways. Confirming that I have the power to cause you to post. Living in your head rent free as it were. I appreciate you confirming that.

You did attack me, this was your first post here. I also didn't respond to it. Your delusions are clouding your memory:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687381&postcount=63

I am sorry that you are unable to realize this is backwards. You wouldn't be posting in this thread if I wasn't. You have no control when you see me post.

I hope you can break free, and realize you are the one enslaved to your delusions. You need to take back control and stop these worthless posts.

[Croco]

Wrong. In post #158 I was simply thanking you. That wasn't an attack. You posted anyway. Once again thanks for confirming my power over you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wrong. In post #158 I was simply thanking you. That wasn't an attack. You posted anyway. Once again thanks for confirming my power over you.

I am a bit worried about your mental state to be honest. You've done this same routine regarding control over me before if I recall, and then you disappeared for a while. I hope you arent off prescribed medications or something. Seek help if this is true in all seriousness.

[Ripqozko]

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 185s, 167k @900 | Davai 17758@(97 in 182s) | Ripqozko 14630@(79 in 183s) | Mattio 13841@(78 in 176s) | Grimswald 11904@(66 in 178s) | Crunchberries 11437@(79 in 144s) | Enessae 11369@(72 in 156s) | Blackduck 11083@(62 in 178s) | Lucyin 10595@(59 in 179s) | Naethyn 10021@(54 in 184s) | Naerron 9964@(73 in 135s) | Zealnier 9567@(52 in 181s) | Snacsize 7977@(43 in 182s) | Pwnasaurus 7884@(79 in 99s) | Gonarer 7877@(43 in 181s) | Karobtik 5661@(48 in 116s)

Last vindi today , pure melee with cek sword which is bis for ranger

[Croco]

I am a bit worried about your mental state to be honest. You've done this same routine regarding control over me before if I recall, and then you disappeared for a while. I hope you arent off prescribed medications or something. Seek help if this is true in all seriousness.

Who's resorting to personal attacks now? I thought you were above such things. Yikes. If you actually cared, which you certainly don't, you'd have sent that in DM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 185s, 167k @900 | Davai 17758@(97 in 182s) | Ripqozko 14630@(79 in 183s) | Mattio 13841@(78 in 176s) | Grimswald 11904@(66 in 178s) | Crunchberries 11437@(79 in 144s) | Enessae 11369@(72 in 156s) | Blackduck 11083@(62 in 178s) | Lucyin 10595@(59 in 179s) | Naethyn 10021@(54 in 184s) | Naerron 9964@(73 in 135s) | Zealnier 9567@(52 in 181s) | Snacsize 7977@(43 in 182s) | Pwnasaurus 7884@(79 in 99s) | Gonarer 7877@(43 in 181s) | Karobtik 5661@(48 in 116s)

Last vindi today , pure melee with cek sword which is bis for ranger

Thanks for the logs! Your Ranger does put out mean DPS, you can't deny that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Who's resorting to personal attacks now? I thought you were above such things. Yikes. If you actually cared, which you certainly don't, you'd have sent that in DM.

It wasn't sarcasm. I do remember you doing this before, so now I am worried. Please seek help if you need it.

[Croco]

It wasn't sarcasm. I do remember you doing this before, so now I am worried. Please seek help if you need it.

One of us definitely needs help. I'll let all the other readers in this thread decide who that is.

[Toxigen]

see sig

[Troxx]

mine too

[Snaggles]

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 185s, 167k @900 | Davai 17758@(97 in 182s) | Ripqozko 14630@(79 in 183s) | Mattio 13841@(78 in 176s) | Grimswald 11904@(66 in 178s) | Crunchberries 11437@(79 in 144s) | Enessae 11369@(72 in 156s) | Blackduck 11083@(62 in 178s) | Lucyin 10595@(59 in 179s) | Naethyn 10021@(54 in 184s) | Naerron 9964@(73 in 135s) | Zealnier 9567@(52 in 181s) | Snacsize 7977@(43 in 182s) | Pwnasaurus 7884@(79 in 99s) | Gonarer 7877@(43 in 181s) | Karobtik 5661@(48 in 116s)

Last vindi today , pure melee with cek sword which is bis for ranger

I think my highest with the Meljeldin on Vindi off Avatar (no primal) is 73. I only have AoB item too. Very solid results.

Not mine but Baadboye uses BoF/Swiftwind and has a primal. Cek is still ideal. Jolting with DW is horrible so skipping that process for dps is just rolling dice on the tank’s weapon procs

**Xanthiss:** *Derakor the Vindicator in 145s, 162k @​1116 / Plunge 16k@​(113 in 139s) / Slaxor 12k@​(89 in 139s) / Rohki 12k@​(88 in 136s) / Xanthiss 11k@​(78 in 141s) / Bagelicious 10k@​(80 in 127s) / Baadboye 10k@​(77 in 130s)) / Foxstab 10k@​(75 in 133s) / Frydeigh 10k@​(93 in 103s) / Tinypope 8k@​(62 in 137s) / Pokesticku 8k@​(61 in 138s) / Mixa 8k@​(117 in 69s) / Kabbo 7k@​(64 in 111s) / Apeirophobia 7k@​(50 in 136s) / Howwe 6k@​(49 in 126s) / Sunwind 6k@​(42 in 139s) / Prettikitty 6k@​(41 in 140s) / Fatally 6k@​(40 in 139s)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When thinking about melee damage you need to incorporate the additional bonus damage added when at high levels. I also mostly play casters, so I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage is helpful.

Here's how I think of it. First, adjust the delay for haste: new delay = old delay / (1 + haste percentage). Second, weapons can generally hit for twice the stated value, so double the damage. Then, add a level-based damage modifier for main hand; wiki suggests it would be 8 or 9 for your level. That's the actual ratio you should be optimizing for.

So, if you have 36% haste and are comparing a 29/30 and a 38/40, the haste makes them 29/22 and 38/28. Doubling the damage and adding 9 gets you 38/22 and 47/28. So the final ratios are 1.72 and 1.68.

This calculation is just for example's sake, as I don't know the actual damage bonus values, and I believe they can be different for 1h and 2h weapons.

I think the other two important considerations is that the damage bonus only applies to main-hand weapon, and that off-hand weapon procs are half the rate of main-hand procs.

You don't add the main hand damage bonus to the weapon's damage when calculating ratio. That has been said a lot on these forums, so it's understandable why you thought that was the case.

You simply add the main hand damage bonus to the final damage number. So if a weapon hits for a maximum of 100 on your character, you would deal 109 damage total after the main hand bonus is applied.

2 handed weapons get an additonal damage bonus if their delay is large enough. I want to say this damage table is accurate for P99: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

So in the case of TStaff vs. IFS, TStaff gets +29 damage added to the final damage value, and IFS gets +34 damage added to the final damage value. These values have the main hand damage bonus already added in, and are for a level 60 character.

EDIT: I did do max damage calculations before. This is using a 46/44 weapon on a level 60:

Minus factor can be found in the link starting on line 5285:

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/5ee285613398fb9fcc157520fcc26cfaecf1acae/zone/attack.cpp

Damage Table for a level 60: { 285 Max Extra, 23 Chance, 65 Minusfactor }

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 350.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 285
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 242.5
2c. ((46 Weapon Damage * 2) * 242.5) / 100 = 223.1
2d. Add 2h damage table bonus. Total is 37 according to https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1 (this includes the formula 3 + ((60 level - 28) / 3) + ((44 delay - 40) / 3)). 37 + 223.1 = 260.1

https://youtu.be/Py96jk2NflU video link for test.

[Snaggles]

You calculate damage bonus when doing ratio. That’s how you compare weapons of varying ratios when accounting for damage bonus application/second. The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

11x2+11 (damage bonus)/18 Delay = 1.8333
30x2+11 (damage bonus) /40 (delay) = 1.775

Calculation above is the same for OH but no damage bonus and you should account record swing ratio. For a 60 ranger the offhand swings exactly .75 times compared to the MH parsed over a 20 minute fight.

2h’s damage bonus is not flat calculated as it changes depending on delay; there are still more and less efficient 2h’s.

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

While it does really matter since there are a finite amount of options, the tstaff is an example where a sub 1/1 ratio weapon can exceed a post 1/1 ratio weapon. Not by much, but by some. Especially if factoring the DD proc.

29/30 (tstaff)
29 (weapon dmg)x2 + 29 (dmg bonus) / 30 (delay) = 2.9 ratio

45/44 (priceless brawl stick)
44 (weapon dmg)x2 + 37 (dmg bonus) / 44 (delay) = 2.886

[Keebz]

The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.

That's correct, on high AC targets lower delay can be better. This is due to the high AC weighting your dice negatively. The dice will roll lower than average damage numbers, so the flat damage bonus matters more. Swiftblade has good damage for it's low delay, which is why it works nicely on high AC targets.

You calculate damage bonus when doing ratio. That’s how you compare weapons of varying ratios when accounting for damage bonus application/second. The Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) is a much worse flat ratio than a Blam Stick (30/40) at .6111 vs .75. But on low AC stuff it’s not horrible.


Here is why it's not quite right to simply add the damage bonus to the weapon damage when calculating ratio. The weapon itself is generating damage in a range based on a weighted roll, while the flat damage bonus is always constant.

Let's say you are fighting a mob with a 25 damage weapon. For eases sake we will say max damage is just 25 * 2 = 50, and the minimum damage is 1. We will also say the mob's AC allows you to roll unweighted dice.

The average damage of the weapon would be 25, and you are always getting + 11 as a flat bonus. So your average damage per swing is 36.

If you add 11 to 50 instead, the calculation would say you have 30.5 damage per swing on average, which isn't correct.

In practice a player's max damage is higher than simply weapon Damage x 2. In the calculation I did above, A 46 damage weapon can hit up to 223 before damage bonus. The average of that would be 111.5 + 37 = 148.5 on unweighted dice. If you added the damage bonus first, it would be 260/2 = 130 average damage on unweighted dice.

[Snaggles]

I think you meant high AC stuff. For high AC mobs, your hits are at the lower end of their distribution which makes the damage bonus (static) constitute a larger percentage of your overall damage.

Another thing to consider is min hit. Weapons with over 15 damage have a min hit of 2 versus a min hit of 1. There may be other cutoffs as numbers get higher, but I never tried to parse it.

Yea that was just a formatting typo. The SBoZ being significantly better on high ac, moderately better on low AC. Despite the Blam having a better ratio.

Just an extreme way to view the adage of “speed is always better in MH”. It still depends on how the math breaks on ratio vs damage bonus application.


DSM,

The calculation I reference is the standard way to compare weapons in EQ. At least per the community and wiki. It’s not perfect but that’s why people parse. If you are trying to figure out which weapon is an “upgrade” you need a napkin math way to solve the issue because you can’t borrow Tunare’s hair to parse for hours and give it back.

Every weapon I’ve done the math for has made sense over a number of parses. The calculated ratio between the BoF/Swiftwind and Meljeldin is very similar and those two parses have them both at 77dps. It’s not perfect but it’s the closest we have to a proven method. At least that I’m willing to accept without a lot more math to justify a change. If it’s not broke…

[Ripqozko]

Mainhand always calcs DMG bonus, offhand pure ratio, 2h pure ratio. 2x DMG +11/delay is the formula for mainhand

[Snaggles]

Agreed.

[bcbrown]

2h pure ratio? Wouldn't damage bonus make e.g. a 30/30 2h better than a 51/50 2h?

Edit: ah ha, since damage bonus is delay-dependent for 2h, that's not true. Now I understand why you say 2h pure ratio, nevermind.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea that was just a formatting typo. The SBoZ being significantly better on high ac, moderately better on low AC. Despite the Blam having a better ratio.

Just an extreme way to view the adage of “speed is always better in MH”. It still depends on how the math breaks on ratio vs damage bonus application.


DSM,

The calculation I reference is the standard way to compare weapons in EQ. At least per the community and wiki. It’s not perfect but that’s why people parse. If you are trying to figure out which weapon is an “upgrade” you need a napkin math way to solve the issue because you can’t borrow Tunare’s hair to parse for hours and give it back.

Every weapon I’ve done the math for has made sense over a number of parses. The calculated ratio between the BoF/Swiftwind and Meljeldin is very similar and those two parses have them both at 77dps. It’s not perfect but it’s the closest we have to a proven method. At least that I’m willing to accept without a lot more math to justify a change. If it’s not broke…

This is very close. Using min damage value of 9 for a level 60 based on some log data for Frostwrath. Not sure what the min damage formula is for lower levels.

MinusFactor
Level 1-50 = 105
Level 51-55 = 80
Level 56-59 = 70
Level 60 = 65

Blam Stick

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * (231 Strength + 21 ATK from 1x AoB and Firefist) - 150) / 3) = 343.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 278
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 239
2c. ((30 Weapon Damage * 2) * 239) / 100 = 143.4 max damage before damage bonus
3. 143.4 + 9 (min damage) / 2 = 76.2. average damage
3a. 76.2 + 11 (damage bonus) = 87.2 damage average * 0.5 miss rate = 43.6
3b. 43.6 / 40 (delay) = 1.09 ratio

SBoZ

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * (231 Strength + 21 ATK from 1x AoB and Firefist) - 150) / 3) = 343.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 278
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 239
2c. ((11 Weapon Damage * 2) * 239) / 100 = 52.58 max damage before damage bonus
3. 52.58 + 9 (min damage) / 2 = 30.79 average damage
3a. 30.79 + 11 (damage bonus) = 41.79 damage average * 0.5 miss rate = 20.895
3b. 20.895 / 18 (delay) = 1.16 ratio

You can see that 21 is almost 22 if you simply added 11 (weapon damage) + 11 (damage bonus) for SBoZ, and 43.6 is close to 41 if you simply added 30 (weapon damage) + 11 (damage bonus). That's why the simplified formula often works, but you can see the values are not quite correct with the simpler calculation, which could give you the wrong answer when the weapons are close.

[bcbrown]

11x2+11 (damage bonus)/18 Delay = 1.8333
30x2+11 (damage bonus) /40 (delay) = 1.775


Blam Stick
44.125 / 40 (delay) = 1.1 ratio

SBoZ
21.0875 / 18 (delay) = 1.17 ratio

Your calculations are different than Snaggles, and I understand why, but both calculations come up with the same result: SBoZ is the better weapon. Is there any example where your calculations come up with a different result than Snaggles' would?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your calculations are different than Snaggles, and I understand why, but both calculations come up with the same result: SBoZ is the better weapon. Is there any example where your calculations come up with a different result than Snaggles' would?

Read my previous edited post.

[bcbrown]

Read my previous edited post.

Back-running your calculations, I think a 32.34/40 weapon would be equivalent to SBoZ, meaning SBoZ is better than a 32/40, but worse than a 33/40.

Using (2*dmg + bonus)/delay, 32.34/40 comes out to a 1.89 ratio, very slightly better than the 1.83 ratio for SBoZ under this approach. 31/40 comes out to 1.825, 32/40 comes out to 1.875, 33/40 is 1.925.

So under your approach, these would be ranked best-to-worst as 33/40, 11/18, 32/40, 31/40. Under Snaggles' approach, the ranking would be 33/40, 32/40, 11/18, 31/40.

To back-run the equivalent 40-delay weapon as SBoZ under DSM's approach:
3b: 46.40 / 40 = 1.16
3a: 81.8 + 11 = 92.8 average damage * 0.5 miss rate = 46.40
3: (154.6 + 9) / 2 = 81.8
2c: 32.34 * 2 * 239 / 100 = 154.58

Does that look correct, DSM?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Back-running your calculations, I think a 32.34/40 weapon would be equivalent to SBoZ, meaning SBoZ is better than a 32/40, but worse than a 33/40.

Using (2*dmg + bonus)/delay, 32.34/40 comes out to a 1.89 ratio, very slightly better than the 1.83 ratio for SBoZ under this approach. 31/40 comes out to 1.825, 32/40 comes out to 1.875, 33/40 is 1.925.

So under your approach, these would be ranked best-to-worst as 33/40, 11/18, 32/40, 31/40. Under Snaggles' approach, the ranking would be 33/40, 32/40, 11/18, 31/40.

To back-run the equivalent 40-delay weapon as SBoZ under DSM's approach:
3b: 46.40 / 40 = 1.16
3a: 81.8 + 11 = 92.8 average damage * 0.5 miss rate = 46.40
3: (154.6 + 9) / 2 = 81.8
2c: 32.34 * 2 * 239 / 100 = 154.58

Does that look correct, DSM?

I'll trust your numbers ratio-wise. These are using unweighted dice. On High AC targets, we need to lower the damage values by some percentage as the average skews lower. We can just make it up for now and say you divide that max damage + min damage by 3 instead of 2:

Blam Stick

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * (231 Strength + 21 ATK from 1x AoB and Firefist) - 150) / 3) = 343.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 278
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 239
2c. ((30 Weapon Damage * 2) * 239) / 100 = 143.4 max damage before damage bonus
3. 143.4 + 9 (min damage) / 3 = 50.8. average damage
3a. 50.8 + 11 (damage bonus) = 61.8 damage average * 0.5 miss rate = 30.9
3b. 30.9 / 40 (delay) = 0.77 ratio

SBoZ

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * (231 Strength + 21 ATK from 1x AoB and Firefist) - 150) / 3) = 343.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 278
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 239
2c. ((11 Weapon Damage * 2) * 239) / 100 = 52.58 max damage before damage bonus
3. 52.58 + 9 (min damage) / 3 = 20.52 average damage
3a. 20.52 + 11 (damage bonus) = 31.52 damage average * 0.5 miss rate = 15.76
3b. 15.76 / 18 (delay) = 0.87 ratio

As you can see, the difference between Blam Stick and SBoZ is now 0.1 instead of 0.07. Not a huge leap, but SBoZ gained ratio. So with these formulas you can see the specific gains for different scenarios roughly speaking.

[Snaggles]

Ultimately as long as the system has some degree of common sense and is used consistently, I wouldn’t knock any someone tweaking their own.

Many of the spreadsheets either assume an optimistic offhand swing ratio or uses outdated damage bonuses for 2h’s. This makes dual wield look far better than it is. People rarely look at the cell calculations too…which is troubling. I’ll let Excel do my math but I’d like to know how it’s doing it, lol.

[bcbrown]

Seems to me that DSM's approach is indeed more accurate, but that the (2*DMG + bonus) / delay is so much simpler with only minimal loss in accuracy (32.1 SBoZ equivalence at 40 delay instead of 32.4 in this scenario) that I understand why that's the popular rule of thumb. And that last example also helped me understand why SBoZ gets even better at high AC targets.

I have some follow-up questions to help clarify some of the mechanics I still understand poorly:

Using min damage value of 9 for a level 60 based on some log data for Frostwrath.
Could you clarify what min damage means here? I think what you're saying is that the minimum pre-bonus hit is 9, which means the log data here would be showing a minimum actual hit of 20 (with 11 damage bonus). Is that correct?

The damage table thing you linked shows { 285 Max Extra, 23 Chance, 65 Minusfactor }. The calculation you did uses the Minusfactor value. What do the other two numbers do?

Is the calculation you provided documented anywhere on the wiki?

And lastly, as an FYI, if you click the line number in Github it updates the URL to to link directly to that line: https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/5ee285613398fb9fcc157520fcc26cfaecf1acae/zone/attack.cpp#L5285

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Could you clarify what min damage means here? I think what you're saying is that the minimum pre-bonus hit is 9, which means the log data here would be showing a minimum actual hit of 20 (with 11 damage bonus). Is that correct?


Yes. I never hit for 12, which would be the lowest damage value if the minimum damage was 1 at level 60. Lowest damage value I saw was 21 on Frostwrath (21 - 11= 10) and 46 on my 46/44 2handed weapon (46-37 = 9). Since the difference was 1 damage lower on the 2h weapon, I am assuming that is the min value. I don't know right now what the exact formula is for determining minimum damage. These damage bonus values of 11 and 37 are from this table:

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1


The damage table thing you linked shows { 285 Max Extra, 23 Chance, 65 Minusfactor }. The calculation you did uses the Minusfactor value. What do the other two numbers do?


I don't remember off the top of my head.


Is the calculation you provided documented anywhere on the wiki?


It is similar to the existing one on the wiki if I recall, but this one is more detailed. I probably should update the wiki at some point.

[bcbrown]

I'd be happy to collaborate with you on the wiki update, or serve as a reviewer to double-check the math, because https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage is the only wiki reference I see, and it's very much incomplete and outdated.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'd be happy to collaborate with you on the wiki update, or serve as a reviewer to double-check the math, because https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage is the only wiki reference I see, and it's very much incomplete and outdated.

Yeah I wouldn't mind doing that. Only outstanding thing is testing attack bonus. I need to test with avatar at some point to see if extra attack is actually added as extra strength. That's what it seems like, but only having +21 attack is not a huge difference in the calculation. so that could be incorrect. I am pretty confident extra attack does increase your max damage, so it has to go somewhere.

Oh and minimum damage calulations.

[Jimjam]

On the subject of rounding dmg, how does this work woth the 20 damage intervals? Is it round up to 1 otherwise round to closest?


for i=1,20

if((i/10*dmg)<1,1,ROUND(i/10*dmg))

What would be the best way to check? A 10 dmg vs 3 dmg weapon on a low level caster?

[Naethyn]

Attack absolutely does not increase your max damage. Attack increases your average damage in a similar way that mob AC reduces your average damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On the subject of rounding dmg, how does this work woth the 20 damage intervals? Is it round up to 1 otherwise round to closest?


for i=1,20

if((i/10*dmg)<1,1,ROUND(i/10*dmg))

What would be the best way to check? A 10 dmg vs 3 dmg weapon on a low level caster?

Depends. What line is that code? If the result is stored in an integer type variable, generally speaking it will always round down on a positive value, and up on a negative.

[Jimjam]

It’s a garble of lua and xml i just made up as an hypothetical example :)

Are you suggesting the first few di with a low dmg weapon like dagger* would hit for zero damage?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s a garble of lua and xml i just made up as an hypothetical example :)

Are you suggesting the first few di with a low dmg weapon like dagger* would hit for zero damage?

Most likely the value is clamped at 1 as a minimum, so you'd always hit for at least 1. But a value like 1.7 would still round down to 1 if it was just being stored in an integer without any other rounding done to it beforehand.

[bcbrown]

Attack absolutely does not increase your max damage. Attack increases your average damage in a similar way that mob AC reduces your average damage.

I'm very curious what you believe impacts your max damage. Weapon, strength, level, anything else? Does offensive skill matter?


Are you suggesting the first few di with a low dmg weapon like dagger* would hit for zero damage?

I would love for someone to fully explain the Damage Interval mechanic, because how I've heard it described does not match either my understanding of the emulator code, nor the logs I've looked at.

That said, here's the emulator code that I think is applying the DI mechanic:

There's a method, RollD20(int offense, int mitigation), that returns a number between 0.1 and 2.0. I think this is where attack and defense values are compared to determine if hits will skew higher or lower.

This number [roll] is used inside MeleeMitigation to adjust the damage done:

hit.damage_done = std::max(static_cast<int>(roll * static_cast<double>(hit.base_damage) + 0.5), 1);

So it takes the "base_damage", multiplies it by a number between 0.1 and 2.0, adds 0.5, converts to int (which rounds down iirc, so 3.9 becomes 3), then if it's below 1, sets it to 1.

So, to start, none of the DI intervals will have zero damage, there's always a minimum of 1. Secondly, if the damage of a weapon is low enough, more of the damage intervals will end up at the minimum value of 1.

E.g., if "base_damage" is 10, the 20 intervals will be 1, 2, 3, ..., 19, 20. If the "base_damage" is 3, 0.4 * 3 + 0.5 is 1.7, truncated to 1, so the intervals will be 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, .., 6.

So low-damage weapons end up with multiple intervals clamped at the minimum value.

References:
https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/5ee285613398fb9fcc157520fcc26cfaecf1acae/zone/attack.cpp#L1050

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/5ee285613398fb9fcc157520fcc26cfaecf1acae/zone/attack.cpp#L999

[Jimjam]

Thanks guys, those are really insightful answers and good jumping off points!

[Keebz]

hit.damage_done = std::max(static_cast<int>(roll * static_cast<double>(hit.base_damage) + 0.5), 1);

So it takes the "base_damage", multiplies it by a number between 0.1 and 2.0, adds 0.5, converts to int (which rounds down iirc, so 3.9 becomes 3), then if it's below 1, sets it to 1.


This explains the 15 dmg magical cutoff for the lower bound, but also mean every X5 (25, 35, etc) bumps the lower bound by 1. Neat.

[Toxigen]

who fkin cares its 2024 just get your items and play holy fuck

[DeathsSilkyMist]

who fkin cares its 2024 just get your items and play holy fuck

Nobody cares that you don't care. I am not sure why you are trying to stop discussion on a forum. Some people do care, and like discussing it.

[Naethyn]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NixAkHvJHV29ziul55lSTsmyPNJnIH4GRDg_dmEp4DA/edit?usp=sharing

[WarpathEQ]

who fkin cares its 2024 just get your items and play holy fuck

What else are all the people on here that are banned from actual gameplay supposed to do with their EQ addiction?

[Troxx]

Drugs?

[Ripqozko]

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 171s, 151k @882 | Junar 18133@(113 in 160s) | Paijun 15708@(96 in 163s) | Inappropriate 15482@(99 in 155s) | Ripqozko 14417@(87 in 164s) | Scather 13672@(88 in 154s) | A storm giant berserker 11778@(92 in 128s) | Mashiara 10812@(79 in 136s) | Jobekn 7893@(47 in 166s) | Carboload 7614@(45 in 167s) | Jener 7359@(44 in 164s) | Blackduck 5259@(44 in 118s) | Dirtydiana 5067@(50 in 101s) | Gonober 4024@(42 in 95s) | Tiras 3381@(21 in 154s) | Flutin 2301@(16 in 142s)

Vindi this morning with cek sword +primal pre proc'd

[Snaggles]

Nice! New ranger record by my accounting. How many AoB’s does Rip have? No bard epic proc right?

[Ripqozko]

Nice! New ranger record by my accounting. How many AoB’s does Rip have? No bard epic proc right?

no aob on my ranger, its been neglected on items since 2018

[Ripqozko]

https://wiki.project1999.com/index.php?title=Magelo_Blue:Ripqozko&action=view&preload=&editintro=&section= old magelo but gear same

[Cecily]

Cek sword is so good. I've bagged my Baton / Swiftwind for over a year now.