Remaking Everquest with a modern game engine

[rooter]

Hey all!

My cousin and I started playing EverQuest back in 1999 on Povar. I was Rooter, the human Shadow Knight and he was Obian the Barbarian Warrior. We were just starting college that year (I didn't go to class enough, was playing EQ all the time). Those times in EverQuest for the first 6 years or so of the game were some of the best moments in gaming I had ever had. Since then I have tried various MMOs, but nothing ever measured up. Today, my cousin and I are both professional software engineers with over 20 years of experience each. We both miss EverQuest, the friendships we made and the experiences we had.

Here are why modern MMOs are a letdown for us:

1. Community breakdown: In giving in to player demands and not sticking to a vision, the games have become watered down. People don't form strong communities anymore because of things like dungeon finders, auction houses, server transfers, name changes, etc.

2. You don't have to really earn anything: Everyone gets to raids, easy modes, in game purchases, etc.

3. Large parts of the world are static or dead: Did you discover a neat cave in a remote location? Why is it empty? Exploration doesn't make any sense, everything is on rails.

I could go on forever, and I think many in this community understand what I'm getting at.

What we want to do: We want to remake EQ with a modern game engine, but stay faithful to the feel. We also have some ideas to add in some dynamic elements to keep the world evolving and fun to explore while maintaining a balance and not overloading players.

I'd like to hear from the community about what you think of this? Good idea? Do you have suggestions? What might you want to see in a remake?

Thanks for your time,
-Rooter Darktide of Povar

[magnetaress]

check out lanterneq

butt ya

my perfect MMO

Forced First Person Perspective (avoids DDR mechs, and creates immersion)
Low APM (constantly spamming the same 10 keys over and over is dumb), High and Deep on Strategy.

And high fantasy class design without tons of giant flaming swords and huge clubs with eyeballs and stuff floating around it like some kind of cosmic petrified turd. Like real LOTR style stuff. Wizards aren't flashy until they are. At those key moments etc.

[rooter]

Great stuff magnetaress, thanks for contributing your thoughts! I definitely agree with everything you said, and we will definitely be having a vision and sticking to it!

[One Tin Soldier]

Forced first person camera? I won't be playing. That doesn't add immersion for me it just pisses me off.

And big multi-group raids? Honestly, how many people actually want to do that. The endgame of EQ was the thing I hated the most about it.

I basically want EQ with the harsh death penalties and grouping and no hand holding but not the awful endgame. Keep the enjoyable part of the game going forever instead of turning it into a tedious, not-enjoyable mess.

Luckily some people are already making that game. Or at least it says so in their FAQ. We'll see if they are playing a cruel trick on us all.

[Evia]

I relate to the love OP has for the game and the memories it created. It's sad that MMOs didn't truly build off what EQ did but rather went away from its design. Modern MMOs don't really resemble EQ at all sadly. I'd love to play "eq with updated graphics" and if anyone ever manages to do so I'd play in a heartbeat. I hope someone does it eventually...but if not, always have p99 to fall back on.

One thing that might have been a huge part of the magic of original EQ is the online aspect and playing with other players all over the world. When EQ launched that was half of the selling point and part of the allure and magic. Now playing a game online with other people isn't "amazing" and it doesn't captivate the audience like it once did. I think this is why we've all become pretty jaded and solo most of the time or stopped socializing with others. I'm not sure that part of the experience can ever be recreated again.

[Trexller]

Yeah the next big thing is gonna be AI bots that seem like real players

Until that novelty wears off and the human species just dies of boredom

[Swish]

Are you going to do a kickstarter?

[Swish]

One thing that might have been a huge part of the magic of original EQ is the online aspect and playing with other players all over the world. When EQ launched that was half of the selling point and part of the allure and magic.

This is very true. Most EQ players were in North America but us Euros loved having some across the pond friends and as a general signpost of where everyone was at the time... everyone was friendly, reputation mattered, and very few people were soloists.

In 2024 the world is becoming a cesspool online, and it carries over into people's gaming interactions. I feel like its moved from having fun with others online to having fun online at other people's expense in a lot of games. I think anyone nostalgic for old game remakes wants the full 1999 experience. Be kind, help people out, and join others in the quest for ultimate victory :)

[Rimitto]

Yeah the next big thing is gonna be AI bots that seem like real players

Until that novelty wears off and the human species just dies of boredom
you mean like those spambots in ecommons? :rolleyes:

[Rimitto]

This is very true. Most EQ players were in North America but us Euros loved having some across the pond friends and as a general signpost of where everyone was at the time... everyone was friendly, reputation mattered, and very few people were soloists.

In 2024 the world is becoming a cesspool online, and it carries over into people's gaming interactions. I feel like its moved from having fun with others online to having fun online at other people's expense in a lot of games. I think anyone nostalgic for old game remakes wants the full 1999 experience. Be kind, help people out, and join others in the quest for ultimate victory :)
People don't want victory they just want to have ultimate level 60's max gear of everything and then die.

not a single one of them gives a shit about finding the answers to broken items or unsolved quests. Just replace them with AI and you wouldn't notice a difference.

[Trexller]

People don't want victory they just want to have ultimate level 60's max gear of everything and then die.

not a single one of them gives a shit about finding the answers to broken items or unsolved quests. Just replace them with AI and you wouldn't notice a difference.

some of us will notice, if the AI is as bad as yours

[Swish]

People don't want victory they just want to have ultimate level 60's max gear of everything and then die.


The interaction with others is the only thing that makes the journey for that worthwhile.

[mokfarg]

Forced first person camera? I won't be playing. That doesn't add immersion for me it just pisses me off.

And big multi-group raids? Honestly, how many people actually want to do that. The endgame of EQ was the thing I hated the most about it.

I basically want EQ with the harsh death penalties and grouping and no hand holding but not the awful endgame. Keep the enjoyable part of the game going forever instead of turning it into a tedious, not-enjoyable mess.

Luckily some people are already making that game. Or at least it says so in their FAQ. We'll see if they are playing a cruel trick on us all.

Couldn't agree more, no raids!

[rooter]

We may do a kickstarter, but not until we have enough to show, we definitely don't want this to be vaporware.

In response to the single player VS multi player: I think people kind of go with the flow on servers. I have been playing WoW SoD lately, and my server all but died, but a few holdouts stayed on it, and it has been amazing. I know half of the server by name, and I get messaged when I log in to join groups. We have managed to do BRD with a group of 50s, and man was it tense. I have forged some real connections for the first time in WoW and it made me realize that if you set the stage correctly, the right kind of people will come and make the community strong :)

[magnetaress]

Yeppers!

[Ciderpress]

Ultima online already had p99 end game raiding beat in like 1997 in terms of antisocial behavior. There is nothing special about 2024, it's just the internet doing it's thing.

[rooter]

I had a great time raiding at the endgame, but my guild was a few expansions behind after several of them had come out, but it was still a lot of fun and a great group. I think your experience with things like that are going to be all about the people you are with. Here are some ideas I've been kicking around to keep the community good:
1. Don't give in to demands of sweatlords, in fact, actively discourage them from playing.
2. Have rewards for exploring the world and having social interactions that are positive. Think AI controlled GMs popping in and out of the world and generating story and content.
3. Discourage power leveling to max and skipping content by making all of the content engaging at lower levels (dungeons in EQ were fun and challenging at level 20, there was no reason to rush to 50).

EQ was cool because you needed a strong community of friends to really succeed, and that's what I'd like to preserve.

[Penish]

to much money / effort, can already see this swirling the metaphorical drain

[One Tin Soldier]

Here are some ideas I've been kicking around to keep the community good:
1. Don't give in to demands of sweatlords, in fact, actively discourage them from playing.
2. Have rewards for exploring the world and having social interactions that are positive. Think AI controlled GMs popping in and out of the world and generating story and content.
3. Discourage power leveling to max and skipping content by making all of the content engaging at lower levels (dungeons in EQ were fun and challenging at level 20, there was no reason to rush to 50).

EQ was cool because you needed a strong community of friends to really succeed, and that's what I'd like to preserve.

I may agree with point (1) although I'm not sure what a "sweatlord" is but I can make a guess what that means.

(2) Sounds nice. How realistic is it? I know it's getting closer to being feasable.

(3) I very much do agree with but there are people who will strongly disagree, and they are likely the same people who want the type of raid, raid, raid game that I don't want. Thing is you can't please everyone...even among us old school types. We don't all agree on everything.

Edit: I think I misunderstood (3). I thought you meant to take stronger action to stop powerleveling. I re-read it and it sank in that you just said to discourage it by making lower level content engaging. That would accomplish exactly nothing. The people who want to power level don't give a damn about low level content.

[magnetaress]

raiding is fun butt really should be only 1 entire raid per expansion with like 3 bosses max and should be not the focus at all just something extra/bonus at the end of the xpansion to do once u done all the other lil 1 group quests and adventures and explorations and secret findings.

[rooter]

Yeah, I'm on the fence about putting in actual barriers to power leveling VS just making content fun at all levels. Ideally, if the game appealed to both types you could have different servers for different types of players, or possibly the option to "graduate" to a different shard populated by like minded players.

As for the AI angle, I've been programming for over 20 years and I dove into AI last year, and you would be surprised what you can already do with it. Our focus as programmers will be more on the game engine itself and features that make the game very fun, dynamic and interesting. The graphical parts are less important because you can pretty much use an MMO template with modern game engines like Unreal. I don't think players that would gravitate to this game would be overly concerned about the latest cutting edge graphics (people are still playing EQ and the graphics are objectively horrible).

[WarpathEQ]

I watched a youtube video the other day where someone had recreated antonica on a new engine (unreal 5 maybe?) and made it all a seemless/zoneless world using the original printed maps of the world to reconnect all of the zones.

It was cool and fun to watch

[rooter]

I'm going to see if i can contact this guy and work with him. It looks amazing! What do you guys think of realtime action combat?

[magnetaress]

He's doing it totally for the artistic value. He's got zero plans to make a game with it because of the assets involved.


He could do it without EQ assets. But it can't resemble antonica in layout. And since he's done this project he'd be liable, or a liability to a company if the new game came too close.

[magnetaress]

That sad you could make a "crater lake zone" where said dieties felll... or The Dark Forest zone (kithicor) if you change enough. They just shouldn't be connected in the order they are.

I think the northwest should be more mountainous and connected by Forest. More claustrophobic. So like... everfrost, EK, kithicor, nektulous, lavastorm, jagged pine STYLE mashup. With lots of cave areas. Highpass and gorge style map too. It could be done with some decent originality.

[loramin]

He could do it without EQ assets. But it can't resemble antonica in layout. And since he's done this project he'd be liable, or a liability to a company if the new game came too close.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure that's quite right.

Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed

Images, like the textures used on everything in the game, are copyrightable. Text, like every line an NPC speaks (and every NPC name) is copyrightable. But the layout?

Again, IANAL, but I that sounds more like "ideas, systems, or methods of operation" than "poetry, novels, movies" to me.

BTW, in general games are not copyrightable at all. You can copyright the picture on your monopoly box, and the board and the pieces and such, but you can't copyright the gameplay (which is why there are a million knockoff monopoly games).

[magnetaress]

The layout is artistic in nature. It's "the world".

I get what you are saying though. You can't copyright the flow of a dungeon or the progression of newbie zone to raids.

I'm talking about a path like this Qeynos > WK > NK > SK > Lake > RMnts and on to FP.

You could probably mostly replicate this changing names. And assets. But then we are hitting a grey area. If you just want to clone your own and make it Free for arts sake it's probably less grey and more "fanart".

I think DBG deserves some respect though. I wouldn't ever try to make a 1:1 copy of antonica and sell it in any format.

[loramin]

I think DBG deserves some respect though. I wouldn't ever try to make a 1:1 copy of antonica and sell it in any format.

Agreed. I'd much rather see someone make "EverQuest 2.0" (by which I do not mean EverQuest 2) than try to fight Daybreak's legal team to remake EQ.

But that being said, we can still dream that Daybreak will sell the rights to someone who wants to make a (real) EQ 2.0. Heck, in a sense they already "sold them" to the P99 team (for free).

[Evia]

One of us just needs to get Uber rich and buy the rights of the eq ip from daybreak already and make a real eq2 happen. Or if any of you are secret millionares you know what you gotta do!
It's funny because I think most of us agree that it's pretty niche to recreate everquest...but tbh, considering how dogshit most modern games have been, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually appealed to the masses on a broad scale if done right. Eq was a bit ahead of its time. I bet it'd easily become a mainstream success if done correctly and in the right hands.

[Trexller]

We could all pool resources and start a company that could obtain the IP rights and then hire ppl (most of the og devs) to come and try to make lightning strike twice

[magnetaress]

EQ ip was like 300 mil. Gotta get Musk or Bezos.

[Evia]

300 mil?! I was thinking we could buy it for maybe 3-4. You foreal?!
I'm not doubting you necessarily im just surprised.

[Trexller]

I was thinking we could buy it for maybe 3-4.

you aren't alone

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2016738-How-much-do-you-think-the-EverQuest-IP-is-worth

maybe there actually would be enough interest to crowdfund the IP rights, most of us who still play the game at all are at least in our 30s and have figured out how to make money

ideas about corporate structure? the top 5 donors are officers and the rest are stakeholders?

[Elijah850]

Making a new Everquest with the same bones in a new engine and retaining all the geography and flow of zones is not illegal with an active and creative Dev team building new lore and "zone names" even if it ends up a zoneless world. Using the insane amount of information about the original game, original vision(before Smedley and corporate profits rushed it to fruition), and recoding the actual gameplay and network integrations etc. is not something that can't be done.

The sad truth is, it's all about the dollar bill, yall.

No one with the funds to do such a project is going to do it if there isn't a pay off. No company is going to fund it if there isn't a pay off. This is why Pantheon has failed. Regardless of how noble and passionate a group of people are, it all comes down to having the monetary freedom to get across the finish line with a product that people want.

Ashes of Creation is only where it is because of the Studio founder's passion and wallet thus far. Time will tell how that goes.

I hope for the sake of massively multiplayer online role playing games in general someone gets it right again one day.

[Trexller]

Yeah game studios dont want ppl to play a game for years and years

They want you to buy new games every month and buy the shit from the in game cash shop

So the mmo doesn't fit that model very well

Buuut something like a crowd funded non-profit could get it right

Call it wikimmo or something

[magnetaress]

Thankfully there's M&M which is very EQC++

[Ciderpress]

It's almost like you guys have given up hope on Pantheon!

[Ciderpress]

I think at the end of the day, we were just lucky as shit to have been around and played when EQ originally launched. I don't count on it ever being recreated, which is why I play here and very much appreciate that this exists.

UO was my first mmo, and I loved that too during its 1-2 year glory days before the devs ruined it.

[Evia]

It's almost like you guys have given up hope on Pantheon!

So did Brad...RIP

[magnetaress]

I think at the end of the day, we were just lucky as shit to have been around and played when EQ originally launched. I don't count on it ever being recreated, which is why I play here and very much appreciate that this exists.

UO was my first mmo, and I loved that too during its 1-2 year glory days before the devs ruined it.
Putting all of the sandbox and player interaction stuff on "rails" that is what killed wow and EQ?. There was no stepping off the "designed and approved " path to pixels! To do anything else.

[Swish]

So did Brad...RIP

oof

[Ciderpress]

Putting all of the sandbox and player interaction stuff on "rails" that is what killed wow and EQ?. There was no stepping off the "designed and approved " path to pixels! To do anything else.

Yes, exactly. That is what killed them, even though I never played wow, but I'm sure that's why it's now lame too.

UO died the day they made trammel\felucia, which was just opt-in or opt-out pvp. You were already safe in town, the deal you agree to when you start paying 9 bucks a month is that you are not safe *outside* of town. Well, a bunch of bitches cried about having bad experiences sometimes and it became extremely bad and lame instantly.

I'm a staunch capitalist, but capitalism surely ruins one thing without fail and that's mmo's that I used to love.

[Swish]

WoW turned into a run around quest simulator with easy access cash shop/WoW tokens/no community spirit.

[Evia]

I feel like a subscription based mmo would be both profitable and something most of us would be willing to do for a high quality one. Yet for some reason these "free to play" games have been more or less what developers have been moving towards. I wish they'd get on this "live service" game trend they're doing and shift it to a quality mmo instead of another hero shooter.

[magnetaress]

RLY good video

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