Healing Aggro on Charmed Pets

[7thGate]

I've been theorycrafting some charmed pet kills, and one of the things that I'm not sure about it how much aggro gets generated by healing pets. I've had a couple of anecdotal claims that healing pets essentially does not produce any heal aggro, from people that have done cleric+chanter leveling and reported never pulling aggro on the cleric. I'm not sure if that's just due to the pet aggro being much higher and transferring to the enchanter on charm break, or if its actually that there isn't healing aggro.

What I'm wondering is if I ran two dictate chains, offset by enough that there is always at least one pet attacking a target, would it be possible to keep them up with a cheal chain for an extended fight? Or would the heal aggro build up on the clerics from the pets wiping their aggro tables every 48 seconds on charm break, and get the healers all summoned and killed without some way to wipe aggro periodically?

Does anyone know what the behavior would likely be there? Eqemu code has it DB controlled and reduced by default, which means it could be basically anything here depending on what it got set to but would accrue aggro at about ~750 aggro/cheal if its not changed.

[Toxigen]

what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

[7thGate]

what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Been looking at the possibility of a double dictate chain to do a ~18-25 man avatar of war, as there are a few mobs in Kael that can both put out enough dps to kill in ~20-30 minutes and durable enough to survive with a 3 second cheal chain. But the two dictate targets would have a minimum of around 20 seconds of aggro generation at some times given the periodic charm breaks, while the clerics would keep accumulating heal aggro from running a chain without zoning or clearing somehow.

[Troxx]

My understanding is that healing pets does generate aggro in the sense that you will get on the threat list of the mob being attacked by the charmed pet … but that it is very minimal. If the pet breaks the mob is gonna go for the chanter or any other player who took a hostile action long before the healer.

Others may know better… but I’m pretty sure that’s how it works.

[Toxigen]

Been looking at the possibility of a double dictate chain to do a ~18-25 man avatar of war, as there are a few mobs in Kael that can both put out enough dps to kill in ~20-30 minutes and durable enough to survive with a 3 second cheal chain. But the two dictate targets would have a minimum of around 20 seconds of aggro generation at some times given the periodic charm breaks, while the clerics would keep accumulating heal aggro from running a chain without zoning or clearing somehow.

Interesting idea on paper but g'luck with that one. People have a hard enough time following a single chain...with constant swaps you're bound to have an oopsie-daisy.

Even if you could get a stable pull, CH will still only heal for 10k...so not sure where you're getting the 3 second chain from.

Not hating, I love fun shit like this...but gonna give this one a big fat nerp.

Soulfire nerf basically makes very low number AoW near impossible unless you've got a straight up BiS A-team across the board. Even with a reaper list and perfect execution its still tough.

Anyone know the lowest number kill on AoW post soulfire paladood only?

[7thGate]

Interesting idea on paper but g'luck with that one. People have a hard enough time following a single chain...with constant swaps you're bound to have an oopsie-daisy.

Even if you could get a stable pull, CH will still only heal for 10k...so not sure where you're getting the 3 second chain from.

Not hating, I love fun shit like this...but gonna give this one a big fat nerp.

Soulfire nerf basically makes very low number AoW near impossible unless you've got a straight up BiS A-team.

From the parses I've seen, AoW does about 1.5k dps vs. a defensive war, or about 2.5k dps vs. a non-defensive target. Burst is obviously higher, and will create situations where a warrior dies in 2 combat rounds with about a 1.5 second spacing periodically if not healed, which means the chain has to go at a stable 1 second to deal with variance, since any time you get two combat rounds in between heals you might die if you're unlucky.

Yetarr has 20k HP buffed, which is enough to give time to react when damage spikes come in. Generally with a 3 second chain I would expect them to usually drop to 60% or so before healing to full each heal, very rarely spiking down to 30-40% and going lower only when the chain is off a bit and there's a bunch of max combat rounds at once, where sky neck clicks would be needed.

For the lowest man, and assuming there's no significant heal aggro, I would probably run the entire healing off ~600 corpsed box of the voids + sky neck so there's no casting at all, just assist AoW and click when you see HP hit 50%. 4 to 5 clerics can sustain a chain on that, it would just be a bit of a pain to set up since you would need about 15-20 man-hours of corpsing time.

[Vivitron]

I'm not sure if that's just due to the pet aggro being much higher and transferring to the enchanter on charm break, or if its actually that there isn't healing aggro.

Bard charm aggro essentially doesn't transfer on a charm break*. My bet is on enchanter charm aggro not transfering either.

So that puts cleric heal aggro below slow aggro when the mob comes for the enchanter.

But levelling you put in 1 ch every several xp mobs killed; I don't know how aggro would build up over a 20 minute chain.

I think in a draft situation you could get away with some memblurs if aggro builds slowly. It might cost you a 5% tick up on his hp when you do it though?

* When you kill a cliff golem you get a couple dozen charm breaks, and it would be very obvious if the pet didn't re-aggro the cg on its first hitround.

[enjchanter]

Imagine you do all this with 18 people and then still get out bid on the drops

[Snaggles]

Most guilds can’t do a 18-25 person vindi without a neckbeard composition of chain-dying bane wizards. AoW ain’t no Vindi…

If you are feeling adventurous with your pet choice during a draft I’d get a few knights and some other Ench’s try to wrangle Yetarr. Basically each knight just buying a couple seconds for the next Dictate to land. Unless they are solidly geared the sacrifice would be worth it. Assuming your ench squad can handle it.

[Toxigen]

From the parses I've seen, AoW does about 1.5k dps vs. a defensive war, or about 2.5k dps vs. a non-defensive target. Burst is obviously higher, and will create situations where a warrior dies in 2 combat rounds with about a 1.5 second spacing periodically if not healed, which means the chain has to go at a stable 1 second to deal with variance, since any time you get two combat rounds in between heals you might die if you're unlucky.

Yetarr has 20k HP buffed, which is enough to give time to react when damage spikes come in. Generally with a 3 second chain I would expect them to usually drop to 60% or so before healing to full each heal, very rarely spiking down to 30-40% and going lower only when the chain is off a bit and there's a bunch of max combat rounds at once, where sky neck clicks would be needed.

For the lowest man, and assuming there's no significant heal aggro, I would probably run the entire healing off ~600 corpsed box of the voids + sky neck so there's no casting at all, just assist AoW and click when you see HP hit 50%. 4 to 5 clerics can sustain a chain on that, it would just be a bit of a pain to set up since you would need about 15-20 man-hours of corpsing time.

AoW chains are instant, not 1 second.

Doesn't matter what the paper napkin math says.

Most effective thing is to make sure the enchanters and druids are working together. Snare all troopers, tash all wolves, rune druids, spot heal enc on bad breaks, etc.

Soulfire nerf killed the low number kills. Since your DPS is low your tank WILL get splattered after disc is down eventually. All it takes is 1 missed reaper. Then you're off to the bumps / 2nd tank and re-establishing. The good part w/ troopers and wolves is they can just keep on going.

[7thGate]

Most guilds can’t do a 18-25 person vindi without a neckbeard composition of chain-dying bane wizards. AoW ain’t no Vindi…

If you are feeling adventurous with your pet choice during a draft I’d get a few knights and some other Ench’s try to wrangle Yetarr. Basically each knight just buying a couple seconds for the next Dictate to land. Unless they are solidly geared the sacrifice would be worth it. Assuming your ench squad can handle it.

Sanctum did this on one of our AoW kills a few drafts back. It went pretty well, with room for improvement. Used 3 enchanters for Yetarr's slot by doing controlled pet breaks to swap (so 8 enchanters holding 5 pets + Yetarr, with 2 open at any given time). On break we mostly just allowed him to path towards his enchanter snared until the fresh dictate landed, since he wasn't tanking here. so wouldn't summon.

We ended up with this parse:

/GU The Avatar of War in 347s, 993k @2862 | Yetarr 126k | A Drakkel Dire Wolf 69631 | Dyeniel + pets 46464 | Darkin + pets 33024 | Trooper Pejhayor 26092 | Trooper Ymmedlor 23885 | Repo 22764 | Jayya 22701 | Snurre 21297 {X} | Kobayashii 21147 {X} | Lookwhosbehind 18885 | Senior Guard Whiteaxe 18427 | Shoeshineboy 18047 | Jadsen 17638 {X} | Teslacoil 17199

Yetarr did 362 DPS. Log file analysis showed we had him on target for 56% of the fight, so improving that could potentially get up to ~500-600ish. That seems about right based on relative AC vs. Vindi, as we've got some parses of him doing 750 dps vs. Vindi, and I do about 2/3 as much damage to AoW as I do to Vindi, so it lines up pretty well.

[Toxigen]

Sanctum did this on one of our AoW kills a few drafts back. It went pretty well, with room for improvement. Used 3 enchanters for Yetarr's slot by doing controlled pet breaks to swap (so 8 enchanters holding 5 pets + Yetarr, with 2 open at any given time). On break we mostly just allowed him to path towards his enchanter snared until the fresh dictate landed, since he wasn't tanking here. so wouldn't summon.

We ended up with this parse:

/GU The Avatar of War in 347s, 993k @2862 | Yetarr 126k | A Drakkel Dire Wolf 69631 | Dyeniel + pets 46464 | Darkin + pets 33024 | Trooper Pejhayor 26092 | Trooper Ymmedlor 23885 | Repo 22764 | Jayya 22701 | Snurre 21297 {X} | Kobayashii 21147 {X} | Lookwhosbehind 18885 | Senior Guard Whiteaxe 18427 | Shoeshineboy 18047 | Jadsen 17638 {X} | Teslacoil 17199

Yetarr did 362 DPS. Log file analysis showed we had him on target for 56% of the fight, so improving that could potentially get up to ~500-600ish. That seems about right based on relative AC vs. Vindi, as we've got some parses of him doing 750 dps vs. Vindi, and I do about 2/3 as much damage to AoW as I do to Vindi, so it lines up pretty well.

damn that is some nutty dps

[7thGate]

damn that is some nutty dps

He innately triples and flurries for 110 to 430 but doesn't innately dual wield. Torch makes him dual wield to get 6 attacks a combat round, so when hasted he starts cranking out ~7 attacks per second. He's a monster.

[7thGate]

Interesting idea on paper but g'luck with that one. People have a hard enough time following a single chain...with constant swaps you're bound to have an oopsie-daisy.

Even if you could get a stable pull, CH will still only heal for 10k...so not sure where you're getting the 3 second chain from.

Not hating, I love fun shit like this...but gonna give this one a big fat nerp.

Soulfire nerf basically makes very low number AoW near impossible unless you've got a straight up BiS A-team across the board. Even with a reaper list and perfect execution its still tough.

Anyone know the lowest number kill on AoW post soulfire paladood only?

Was able to do a low man Vindi with a variant of this technique; 10 people on the core kill, using Yetarr and Bvellos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyZfNjvsDRE

Though I was originally planning a double dictate chain, I am leaning more now towards a Yetarr+Bvellos setup and running chains on both, just ducking whichever doesn't have aggro.

Yetarr took 64% of his life in damage when he went 15 seconds without heals around 2:02->2:17. AoW hits about 3-4x as hard as Vindi, so 3 second chain would be fine to handle if that had come in in 4 seconds instead of 15. I might go to 2 second chain for Yetarr to be safe, though. Bvellos is tougher, but I didn't get a good video of him in this part. I think 3 seconds is probably ok for him still, there were some cases with him taking 36% of his life in damage during a 10 second CH cast; that's probably ok durability metrics for a 3 second AoW chain.

[Toxigen]

Was able to do a low man Vindi with a variant of this technique; 10 people on the core kill, using Yetarr and Bvellos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyZfNjvsDRE

Though I was originally planning a double dictate chain, I am leaning more now towards a Yetarr+Bvellos setup and running chains on both, just ducking whichever doesn't have aggro.

Yetarr took 64% of his life in damage when he went 15 seconds without heals around 2:02->2:17. AoW hits about 3-4x as hard as Vindi, so 3 second chain would be fine to handle if that had come in in 4 seconds instead of 15. I might go to 2 second chain for Yetarr to be safe, though. Bvellos is tougher, but I didn't get a good video of him in this part. I think 3 seconds is probably ok for him still, there were some cases with him taking 36% of his life in damage during a 10 second CH cast; that's probably ok durability metrics for a 3 second AoW chain.

i want to see the video of the attempt...maybe next draft talk to the guild officers and convince them to let you pick AoW on round 1

[Videri]

OP, my understanding is that when you heal someone that’s fighting a mob, the mob has to pass a witness check to notice that you’ve healed. You can try this by healing somebody that’s fighting a mob that’s not KOS to you, then conning the mob. Sometimes you’ll go on the aggro list, sometimes you won’t.

[circlerogue]

On break we mostly just allowed him to path towards his enchanter snared until the fresh dictate landed, since he wasn't tanking here. so wouldn't summon.

I don't quite understand how Yetarr wouldn't summon upon charm breaking. Wouldn't he summon immediately if not in melee range of the enchanter?

[7thGate]

In that situation, Yetarr was being used for DPS and not tanking, so was at 100% life and wouldn't summon since the warrior had Avatar turned.

We have since improved the technique, and the enchanter zones before dictate ends. Since Yetarr is pacified and ensnared, he doesn't aggro anyone or move away from the target, and the next dictate can pick him up and have him start attacking immediately with no loss of DPS moving.

[Toxigen]

In that situation, Yetarr was being used for DPS and not tanking, so was at 100% life and wouldn't summon since the warrior had Avatar turned.

We have since improved the technique, and the enchanter zones before dictate ends. Since Yetarr is pacified and ensnared, he doesn't aggro anyone or move away from the target, and the next dictate can pick him up and have him start attacking immediately with no loss of DPS moving.

yeah thats pretty sick stuff

[7thGate]

PL killed AoW at their draft target with Bvellos tanking. No Yetarr, but Bvellos had no problems staying up with a 3 second chain. He's a tanking monster.

They also ran a CH chain on him for an hour. It was a deep chain, but I feel like there's probably not a lot of aggro being generated by healing the pets here.

[enjchanter]

Everyday warriors become more and more useless

[Zuranthium]

He innately triples and flurries for 110 to 430 but doesn't innately dual wield. Torch makes him dual wield to get 6 attacks a combat round, so when hasted he starts cranking out ~7 attacks per second. He's a monster.

Charm pets (and most NPC's in general) should not be able to do dual wield attacks. It's so dumb.

[Solist]

Wot.

It was common practice to put a 2h to remove dual wielding from NPC's in classic.

NPC's dual wielding, and doing so when charmed was always a thing.

Forcing dual wield was always a thing.

[Duik]

It was common practice to put a 2h to remove dual wielding from NPC's in classic.
I recall doing this with a static friends group in mid 2000. Defo a thing then.

[Jimjam]

I recall doing this with a static friends group in mid 2000. Defo a thing then.

Also far more two handers were secondary slot equippable (for pets and npcs only, obv!) so your pet could offhand something like a bbc! Nice!

[Zuranthium]

It was common practice to put a 2h to remove dual wielding from NPC's in classic.

NPC's dual wielding, and doing so when charmed was always a thing. Forcing dual wield was always a thing.

You're not getting it. That SHOULDN'T be in the game. It's highly imbalanced and makes no sense whatsoever from an RPG perspective. You don't learn to suddenly dual wield just because someone puts the weapons in your hand, and nobody is ever going to change the weapons they are wielding because of some random opponent walking up to them and trying to hand them a shittier one.

There aren't many charmable MOBs that actually do 4 attacks per round on their own, but even among the ones available it should be turned off for balance purposes.

Also there IS something unclassic here on p99 about the mechanic - giving a MOB an offhand-only item, like a torch, should not cause it to dual-wield.

[Duik]

Waa