shaman duo

[abysalwhip2008]

Assuming I had access to twink gear could a warrior or sk duo with a shammy in group content? which would you choose? whats are some pros and cons to each?

[Ripqozko]

its 2023, it doesn't matter if you are twinking, get ST key, get weapons, get fungi and SS gear, Ring 10, chardok earrings, eye patch of plunder and go ham on either class

[Crede]

Sham can duo with anybody. Go sk.

[Snaggles]

A sham and warrior don’t have the best splitting/pulling options, just root. While they take and deliver hits nice any hybrid (outside a bard for sake of kill speed) or a monk would make your life easier.

If someone is hell bent on a warrior though you can certainly still do a lot of content. Anything slowed is pretty easy to heal for.

[Troxx]

The pros for one can be considered direct cons for the other.

Pros for sk: opens up close to everything with FD pull. Some limited other spell utility.

Pros for warrior: pretty much everything else while actually fighting is better. higher dps, faster kill rate (fight per fight), will take less damage at baseline and then gets obscene after evasive disc is available.

In a true duo without outside buffs, sk use of mana bar will be limited due to mana constraints making them, at best, a weak warrior without med breaks.

Having said that and regardless of any advantage the warrior might have, the pulling ability of FD is probably the most important of the pros. SK sham is considered a power duo for a reason. It makes most all camps and dungeon crawling fairly painless.

My vote goes to the SK. Either class can duo easily with a shaman. Ultimately play what you find most fun.

[Crede]

Sham/sk will have access to more lucrative risky camps. If the shaman gets sky fd ring then you each can fd if you get into a sketchy situation or decide to up the anti a bit in places like fear/hate/etc.

I’d only make a warrior if it was like a 4-6 man static group where it would unlock some additional boss fights.

[Toxigen]

Depends on what you want out of the duo.

Sham + Warrior is by far the best for just plowing through levels. Shaman has all the tools to keep War in zerk. If you're just trying to get to 60 ASAP and raid this is the answer. Get the war a fungi, the best worn haste possible, and a big 2 hander and its cruise control to 60.

If you're aiming to do tricky / risky / hard cash camps, then SK is better suited. Safer FD pulls / snare splits / etc...but their dmg pales vs War.

The real best answer is monk...but if that isn't on the table my vote goes War so if/when you do get to 60 you actually have a worthwhile tank that can do harder stuff if you wind up with friends beyond the duo.

(fungi on the shaman will help a lot too if you can afford 2)

[Crede]

Depends on what you want out of the duo.

Sham + Warrior is by far the best for just plowing through levels. Shaman has all the tools to keep War in zerk. If you're just trying to get to 60 ASAP and raid this is the answer. Get the war a fungi, the best worn haste possible, and a big 2 hander and its cruise control to 60.

If you're aiming to do tricky / risky / hard cash camps, then SK is better suited. Safer FD pulls / snare splits / etc...but their dmg pales vs War.

The real best answer is monk...but if that isn't on the table my vote goes War so if/when you do get to 60 you actually have a worthwhile tank that can do harder stuff if you wind up with friends beyond the duo.

(fungi on the shaman will help a lot too if you can afford 2)

I dunno about that man. I’m not denying monks are an overall superior class than sk due to the raid scene. But a static duo I’d almost rather have sk. You lose dps and mitigation but you gain snap aggro and snare pulling. Most wipes I’ve seen are because the shaman couldn’t land a slow and the monk couldn’t hold aggro.

[Troxx]

I haven’t seen many if any wipes from a sham/monk duo due to aggro and inability to land slow. Typically at that level of gameplay where a slow is critically needed to succeed - both players are seasoned enough that they know how to roll with the punches. Wipes under these circumstances is honestly a player skill issue.

Snap aggro is less important in this duo to be honest … unlike a group scenario where you’re competing with rogues.

[Toxigen]

I dunno about that man. I’m not denying monks are an overall superior class than sk due to the raid scene. But a static duo I’d almost rather have sk. You lose dps and mitigation but you gain snap aggro and snare pulling. Most wipes I’ve seen are because the shaman couldn’t land a slow and the monk couldn’t hold aggro.

huh? you literally root, then slow...and the monk has control every single time

theres no way SK/shaman is better than monk/shaman for standard leveling and basic camps

sure...for difficult duo camps ill take the SK...but the OP never specified this and odds are that isn't the goal of the duo

[Crede]

huh? you literally root, then slow...and the monk has control every single time

theres no way SK/shaman is better than monk/shaman for standard leveling and basic camps

sure...for difficult duo camps ill take the SK...but the OP never specified this and odds are that isn't the goal of the duo

Yea good luck trying to keep gwurms rooted. But yah I agree monk for general level but if you’re trying to go all in at the end I’d take sk.

[Toxigen]

Yea good luck trying to keep gwurms rooted. But yah I agree monk for general level but if you’re trying to go all in at the end I’d take sk.

i wasnt aware the op said hes looking for a duo for gwurms

[DeathsSilkyMist]

huh? you literally root, then slow...and the monk has control every single time

theres no way SK/shaman is better than monk/shaman for standard leveling and basic camps

sure...for difficult duo camps ill take the SK...but the OP never specified this and odds are that isn't the goal of the duo

I am not sure why ease of leveling matters in this scenario. Duoing makes the game easy to level already. The point of leveling is to get to the end. It honestly doesn't matter if leveling to 30 and stopping with one class combo is better than the other. Leveling to 30 with a duo is already dirt easy with basically any class combo, except maybe Rogue Rogue.

[Troxx]

Yea good luck trying to keep gwurms rooted. But yah I agree monk for general level but if you’re trying to go all in at the end I’d take sk.

Good luck trying to duo gwurms with just a shaman for heals. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s gonna be nasty.

If you could manage to get them single, this is the type of fight where the warrior with disc would shine.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Good luck trying to duo gwurms with just a shaman for heals. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s gonna be nasty.

If you could manage to get them single, this is the type of fight where the warrior with disc would shine.

Yeah GWurms are pretty nasty. I can single pull them to BW zoneline, but I can't solo them with just Torpor. You probably need a lot of wort pots. Not sure if a duo could do it either.

[Crede]

Good luck trying to duo gwurms with just a shaman for heals. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s gonna be nasty.

If you could manage to get them single, this is the type of fight where the warrior with disc would shine.

I’ve done it heh. Moderately geared monk. Used my Ranger for harmo. It’s perfectly manageable when slow lands. But I’ve wiped multiple times with the sham just trying to slow 4-5+ times and the monk couldn’t pull aggro. Sk would be better who could spam taps/aggro spells while sham keeps them torpd and trying to slow it while sk also has a tash stick going.

[Ripqozko]

he said twinked, the amount of twink gear with hot, kael bosses (vindi, statue, aow), VP, ring 10 etc, who cares what it is, unless he doesnt really mean twinked. there is levels to this.

[Snaggles]

The OP is asking about a sk or warrior. While a lot of other combos would work (I like pally here) I’m guessing it’s a preference of the parties.

Realistically in this case the window for what you can do with a warrior and torp/slow over a knight is pretty slim. Compared to the ability to split camps and move through contact thanks to snare/fd/rest the dead.

That said, a tank and shaman make a very solid basis for a trio. You can easily blaze to 60 and if you have desire to do certain camps add a CC or lull/harmo/fd class and you just get more options.

[Naethyn]

iksar shaman necro is my favorite

[Toxigen]

iksar shaman necro is my favorite

always wanted to do a iksar sham / monk / necro static trio from scratch

[Crede]

always wanted to do a iksar sham / monk / necro static trio from scratch

Necro is dead weight here unless you specifically limit your places to undead charming. I’d swap in a war or sk.

[Naethyn]

The synergies between shaman and necro are really strong.

[Toxigen]

The synergies between shaman and necro are really strong.

big time

Necro is dead weight here unless you specifically limit your places to undead charming. I’d swap in a war or sk.

nah not unless ubertwinked...low budget / self fund necro provides so much synergy its insane

[Crede]

The shaman/necro synergy is strong because shamans can’t dps for shit(lol hi DSM). If you’re making a trio just go ham on dps like iksar monk/war/shaman or even like ogre sham/war/sk would be good and war zerks the whole time.

[Naethyn]

The necro is the healer actually.

[Toxigen]

The shaman/necro synergy is strong because shamans can’t dps for shit(lol hi DSM). If you’re making a trio just go ham on dps like iksar monk/war/shaman or even like ogre sham/war/sk would be good and war zerks the whole time.

shaman will be forever oom and pretty miserable

necro becomes the main healer, shaman has plenty of mana for all the things, shaman regen so good for necro, etc

its a better trio...even more so if no fungis / twinking are involved...probably the best trio that doesnt use an enchanter

[DeathsSilkyMist]

shamans can’t dps for shit(lol hi DSM).

I am not sure why you keep saying that, you don't have any data to back this up. With JBB, EBolt, and a hasted Pet, Shamans can output 55 DPS on a single target if you are killing one mob per minute. This is not a level 60 Shaman either. My ToV geared SK does 60-70 DPS with 54% haste. If the Shaman has Epic you can also root rot multiple targets while your duo partner is focusing down one mob at a time. This would further increase your DPS.

A Cleric outputs zero DPS if you are using them for a healer instead, for example.

[Troxx]

DSM please do not derail another thread.

Just stop.

Now.

Back to the evolving topic of discussion: yeah necro and shaman synergy is stellar. They complement each other beautifully.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM please do not derail another thread.

Just stop.


You are the only one trying to troll/derail the thread with nonsense like this. Don't blame me for your lack of self control. Learn some self restraint and stick to the topic at hand instead of reverting to your normal pattern of trolling, or reply to the substance of my post. At least your aren't attacking autistic people this time. Progress!

Crede is incorrect in his assertion that Shamans cannot output good DPS. He has no evidence for this claim. If people are worried about DPS in a Shaman/X duo, you need to take into account the realistic DPS a Shaman can output.

[Troxx]

No, please just let this stop here. We don’t need another DSM thread about you talking about root rotting mobs beside otherwise functioning groups to support the notion of DPS shamans.

Please stay on topic or at least create a different thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, please just let this stop here. We don’t need another DSM thread about you talking about root rotting mobs beside otherwise functioning groups to support the notion of DPS shamans.

Please stay on topic or at least create a different thread.

Take your own advise and stick to the topic at hand, instead of posting nonsense like this. Your normal posting pattern of derailing and trolling threads is not the correct method to disprove something you think is wrong. You are the only one starting to derail this thread, and you can stop derailing it by acting like an adult.

Factually speaking a Shaman can root rot in a duo, and it is a good strategy to increase your DPS if your care about increasing DPS. Just imagine how a Shaman normally solos with Epic, and add a second player into the mix. It's not difficult to park multiple mobs with a free Epic DoT, while slowing the mob that the melee class is currently attacking.

Back to the topic at hand (please stop trolling Troxx), Shamans can output good DPS in a duo. This can indeed be taken into account when choosing the class of your duo partner. The claim that "Shamans cannot output good DPS" is wrong, and Crede/Troxx have no evidence to back up this baseless claim.

[Troxx]

Well guys … we made it more than halfway through page 3 this time …

/facepalm

Crede … you sir are a black belt in rustling his jimmies lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well guys … we made it more than halfway through page 3 this time …

/facepalm

Crede … you sir are a black belt in rustling his jimmies lol

I am simply correcting false claims that are being posted, so OP can get real information. Crede is not correct about Shaman DPS, and he hasn't provided any evidence to back up his claims. You also haven't provided any evidence.

The only one with rustled jimmies is yourself. It is why you keep posting off topic nonsense, while trying to pretend you aren't the one derailing the thread. When will you take your own advise and get back to the topic at hand? Why are you compulsively posting nonsense instead?

[Duik]

Cant.
Be.
Wrong.

Must.
Reply.
With.
Derpa derp, shaman multiple root rot in group to augment group DPS.

There.
I.
Have.
Corrected.
Everyone.

Parse data > ALL.

[Gloomlord]

You know, DSM: you may actually have a point sometimes, but the sheer audacity of some of your arguments (Root rotting in a group that doesn't need it and putting starting points into INT as SK) is doing you a serious disservice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You know, DSM: you may actually have a point sometimes, but the sheer audacity of some of your arguments (Root rotting in a group that doesn't need it and putting starting points into INT as SK) is doing you a serious disservice.

If you think I am wrong, the solution is to present counter-evidence and logic. You have 350+ posts of literally nothing other than insults. It's over half of your entire post history. That is the only disservice here, you have completely discredited yourself and wasted peoples time with your posts.

I am sorry you lack the imagination to understand a simple concept like rooting and doting a mob. You do understand that players already root adds off to the side in a group, right? Applying a DoT is easy enough to do in that circumstance. A Shaman/SK duo is not going to worry about breaking Enchanter Mez with DoTs.

Basic statistics show INT is the best stat to dump into if you want to Min/Max an SK. P99 will never leave Velious, so there will be no new items that change the statistical distribution of equipment stats. There's really no reason for this to be a contentious issue, all the data is available.

Please stop trolling and posting off-topic nonsense. If you want to contribute to the thread, please stick to the topic at hand.

[Troxx]

All aboard!

https://media.tenor.com/isLc31YzCfYAAAAC/war-dogs-war-dogs-movie.gif

See you guys in 20 pages … we got ourselves another DSM thread!!

[Lune]

https://i.imgur.com/diE21BN.jpg

[Penish]

DSM off his meds again eh?

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/diE21BN.jpg

well played

[Danth]

Haven't posted in months--I'm inactive on P99 for now--but this thread is relevant to me so l'll chime in. I played a shadowknight on P99, paired with my wife's shaman, for many years, and we certainly pushed the limit of our duo as far as we cared to, and farther than most.

Monk/Shaman levels faster than SK/Shaman. This should not be in dispute. The average hourl exp rate difference is not as large as might be expected, however, so a human or dark elf SK paired with a barbarian shaman should be competive with say, Iksar monk/shaman.

At level 60 once levels don't matter overmuch they're pretty much interchangeable. They'll do all the same camps. The SK is favored in some areas, the Monk-based duo has an advantage in others, but in over ten years I never found an area the monk-based duo could do, that my wife and I couldn't. The SK has an easier time keeping aggro when the shaman has to spam slow back-to-back against resistant creatures like guardian wurms, Bledrek/Kerdelb, and such things, and also has an easier time splitting where snare splits are desired. Monk-based duo's get it done too, so it's not an insurmountable problem. The Monk offers a faster killspeed, especially if the SK doesn't use his pet (say, WW dragons), and doesn't need to meditate but again, we kill the same ones too, if just a little slower.

Attached is an image from over a decade ago of my wife root-rotting multiple mobs in a leveling duo with my SK, just to show some people actually do that sort of thing.

[Danth]

I haven’t seen many if any wipes from a sham/monk duo due to aggro and inability to land slow. Typically at that level of gameplay where a slow is critically needed to succeed - both players are seasoned enough that they know how to roll with the punches. Wipes under these circumstances is honestly a player skill issue.

(wanted to add a little, can't edit)

I've watched exactly that happen enough times to agree it's a potential limitation that he was right to bring up. Slow aggro may even be the most common cause of failure for monk/shaman in the toughest areas. That being said, it's also a manageable limitation that won't actually stop monk/shaman from doing the same encounters, even if they might die once in awhile due to bad RNG rolls on chain resists. SK also has an easier time kiting from a distance for a pre-slow if you want to take that route, like for Lodizal duo. Shaman/Monk get it done too so none of it's insurmountable. These are also very specific, difficult types of duo content that most player duos seldom or never attempt. For more ordinary areas it's a nonissue.

DN pebala ratmen was a tough one for us to figure out to do duo. Snare was pretty important there, root being less desired due to unstunable gaters. Monk based duo could manage it but at a disadvantage. Most people will do that type of area only as part of a larger group or small raid. SK had a slight theoretical advantage in Charasis due to more HP for soaking multiple-mob harm touches, but in practice the monk-based duo is stronger there due to faster killrate making it easier to keep ahead of that zone's fast respawn rate.

[Snaggles]

If I was going to duo a sham and SK I would probably roll Cazic for diety. The symbol quests would make fear kiting in those early levels far better until slow/heal is more efficient. Could even go Iksar with some faction work.

I like my Inny troll for the clinging darkness neck and halfling mask but more in theory. I seldom use those.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Disciple_Symbol_of_Cazic_Thule
https://wiki.project1999.com/Initiate_Symbol_of_Cazic_Thule

A warrior or rogue with a snare proc weapon would work nice too. This ratio is hot garbage but level 15 proc is quite nice.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Glaive_of_Marltek

[Gloomlord]

If you think I am wrong, the solution is to present counter-evidence and logic. You have 350+ posts of literally nothing other than insults. It's over half of your entire post history. That is the only disservice here, you have completely discredited yourself and wasted peoples time with your posts.

I mean, if you're going to try to go into another rant at me, at least try to stop saying lies like "wasted people's time". I was arguing with you in those threads, DSM. You wanted to respond to me, so get off your high horse.

Please, for the love of God, just grow up for once in your life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean, if you're going to try to go into another rant at me, at least try to stop saying lies like "wasted people's time". I was arguing with you in those threads, DSM. You wanted to respond to me, so get off your high horse.

Please, for the love of God, just grow up for once in your life.

You spent 350+ posts ranting and raving. It was a waste of time. Danth posted a screenshot of people root rotting in a duo over 10 years ago. Looks like your assumption that nobody does this was wrong. Are you willing to grow up and admit you were wrong?

Haven't posted in months--I'm inactive on P99 for now--but this thread is relevant to me so l'll chime in. I played a shadowknight on P99, paired with my wife's shaman, for many years, and we certainly pushed the limit of our duo as far as we cared to, and farther than most.

Monk/Shaman levels faster than SK/Shaman. This should not be in dispute. The average hourl exp rate difference is not as large as might be expected, however, so a human or dark elf SK paired with a barbarian shaman should be competive with say, Iksar monk/shaman.

At level 60 once levels don't matter overmuch they're pretty much interchangeable. They'll do all the same camps. The SK is favored in some areas, the Monk-based duo has an advantage in others, but in over ten years I never found an area the monk-based duo could do, that my wife and I couldn't. The SK has an easier time keeping aggro when the shaman has to spam slow back-to-back against resistant creatures like guardian wurms, Bledrek/Kerdelb, and such things, and also has an easier time splitting where snare splits are desired. Monk-based duo's get it done too, so it's not an insurmountable problem. The Monk offers a faster killspeed, especially if the SK doesn't use his pet (say, WW dragons), and doesn't need to meditate but again, we kill the same ones too, if just a little slower.

Attached is an image from over a decade ago of my wife root-rotting multiple mobs in a leveling duo with my SK, just to show some people actually do that sort of thing.

Thanks for the post btw Danth. Level headed and informative as always!

[Gloomlord]

Do you realise I was talking about the thread where you said 2 Enchanters and 1 Cleric would prefer a root rotting Shaman over a Magician? That was one of the audacious arguments I was talking about.

I didn't say root rotting was an unviable tactic for leveling, did I? You're putting words into my mouth, which is a specialty of yours, isn't it?

You're crazy, DSM. I mean that, genuinely.

Edit: Ah, yes. Another stealth edit from the legend. If I was ranting and raving, hypocrite, then don't respond.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you realise I was talking about the thread where you said 2 Enchanters and 1 Cleric would prefer a root rotting Shaman over a Magician? That was one of the audacious arguments I was talking about.

I didn't say root rotting was an unviable tactic for leveling, did I? You're putting words into my mouth, which is a specialty of yours, isn't it?

You're crazy, DSM. I mean that, genuinely.

I am not putting words in your mouth. If you can root rot in a duo (which is a group), you can root rot in a group of 4 people. If you agree a shaman can root rot in a duo, you agree a shaman can root rot in a group of four people. I am not sure why this concept is so difficult for you.

The only person twisting people's words is yourself. I never told people to "prefer" one type of DPS over the other. Each group can take whatever classes they want. My argument has always been that a Shaman can output pretty good DPS if the group wants the shaman to act as a pure DPS role in a group. You are the one making stuff up about my arguments lol.

[Gloomlord]

Are we really going to have this conversation again, DSM? Do I, or anyone else here, need to explain to you AGAIN why a charm group does not want a root rotting Shaman?

Fuck it! Why don't we throw your stupid comebacks right back at you?!

1000+ posts of trolling nonsense from an insane child. You've discredited yourself, DSM!!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are we really going to have this conversation again, DSM? Do I, or anyone else here, need to explain to you AGAIN why a charm group does not want a root rotting Shaman?

Fuck it! Why don't we throw your stupid comebacks right back at you?!

1000+ posts of trolling nonsense from an insane child. You've discredited yourself, DSM!!!

Thanks for continuing to show you are just a ranting and raving troll. Please stop posting off topic nonsense every time you see me posting in a thread. It just looks crazy. You don't have to follow me around and rehash an argument you lost. It's ok to be wrong.

[Gloomlord]

It's fine when you say stupid things to discredit people, but it's not fine when they throw it back at you.

Moral myopia, DSM. Look into it!

Guess 20+ people lost in that thread against you, didn't they? Truly you are an EQ genius at work when you suggested root rotting in a charm group.

Whatever helps you endure yourself everyday, I suppose.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's fine when you say stupid things to discredit people, but it's not fine when they throw it back at you.

Moral myopia, DSM. Look into it!

Guess 20+ people lost in that thread against you, didn't they? Truly you are an EQ genius at work when you suggested root rotting in a charm group.

Whatever helps you endure yourself everyday, I suppose.

Yes, it is possible for multiple people to be wrong at the same time. You are the one who randomly came into this thread to attack me. I didn't force you to do it. I am simply defending myself.

If you don't want to look like a fool, stop acting like one. Learn some self control and resist the urge to randomly post off topic nonsense.

Please post in the four man group thread if you have evidence that you think proves me wrong. I will take a look at it. As for this thread, please stick to the topic at hand.

[Ripqozko]

Another DSM thread, close it down boys

[Gloomlord]

I'm sorry, guys. I shouldn't have tried to give this arrogant fool a reality check. He lacks the humility and maturity to self-improve. This will be my last post addressing him, at least on this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm sorry, guys. I shouldn't have tried to give this arrogant fool a reality check. He lacks the humility and maturity to self-improve. This will be my last post addressing him, at least on this thread.

The reality check is Shamans can output pretty good DPS when they focus on DPSing. Shamans can root rot in a duo to increase DPS, which is directly related to OP's question. I am not the only one who is saying this. Danth has done this 10+ years ago with a Shaman/SK duo, which is again directly related to OP's question. It's not a new strategy I made up. If you have some Shaman DPS numbers that you think are relevant in proving me wrong, I would be happy to take a look at them.

Otherwise please stop doing the disservice of posting misinformation simply because you are salty about another thread on these forums.

Nobody needed you to come in to this thread and randomly insult people you dislike. Thank you for ceasing your senseless posting.

[Snaggles]

Why would anyone care to put a shaman into a DPS box? The epic is just a free mediocre version of Splurt.

In a duo that's the last thing a shaman is bringing to the table. Sure throw the dots around I guess but still.

[Penish]

Do you realise I was talking about the thread where you said 2 Enchanters and 1 Cleric would prefer a root rotting Shaman over a Magician? That was one of the audacious arguments I was talking about.

I didn't say root rotting was an unviable tactic for leveling, did I? You're putting words into my mouth, which is a specialty of yours, isn't it?

You're crazy, DSM. I mean that, genuinely.

Edit: Ah, yes. Another stealth edit from the legend. If I was ranting and raving, hypocrite, then don't respond.

lol'd again

[Infectious]

You're all wrong. Dsm has the data to back his claims. I've went over the spread sheets and couldn't believe it myself.

[Toxigen]

yikes another one off the rails

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why would anyone care to put a shaman into a DPS box? The epic is just a free mediocre version of Splurt.

In a duo that's the last thing a shaman is bringing to the table. Sure throw the dots around I guess but still.

Ask the people who think adding DPS to a group is the only thing that matters. It isn't my argument that DPS is the end all be all of grouping. The people who think DPS is the only thing that matters are the ones trying to downplay Shaman DPS. I am simply refuting the incorrect claim that Shamans can't DPS well.

I agree the Shaman shouldn't solely DPS in a group, their other utility is more useful than DPS. Since Epic is free it is easy to DoT rooted mobs to increase DPS while still doing your utility role.

[Snaggles]

Ask the people who think adding DPS to a group is the only thing that matters. It isn't my argument that DPS is the end all be all of grouping. The people who think DPS is the only thing that matters are the ones trying to downplay Shaman DPS. I am simply refuting the incorrect claim that Shamans can't DPS well.

I agree the Shaman shouldn't solely DPS in a group, their other utility is more useful than DPS. Since Epic is free it is easy to DoT rooted mobs to increase DPS while still doing your utility role.

It’s ok to be frustrated at people but let’s not even elude to the fact a shaman can DPS with the epic. It’s a 9 second cast and 90 second duration that scales the longer it lasts (ie: not the best dps tool for short fights). Best case in 99 seconds if not resisted it will do 14.39 dps. That doesn’t even count time to root stuff.

You would have to run 5x dots concurrently to do 71dps and with varying timers. Meanwhile with most fights being 30 seconds or so a real dps could have done that to three individual mobs in the same duration and reduced the total npc count.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s ok to be frustrated at people but let’s not even elude to the fact a shaman can DPS with the epic. It’s a 9 second cast and 90 second duration that scales the longer it lasts (ie: not the best dps tool for short fights). Best case in 99 seconds if not resisted it will do 14.39 dps. That doesn’t even count time to root stuff.

You would have to run 5x dots concurrently to do 71dps and with varying timers. Meanwhile with most fights being 30 seconds or so a real dps could have done that to three individual mobs in the same duration and reduced the total npc count.

There are a few things wrong with this logic.

1. A Shaman/SK duo is not killing mobs every 30 seconds when they are level 50+, which is when the Shaman would be using their Epic. If your group is killing one mob every 30 seconds, you already have enough DPS in your group.

2. Using your own calculation of 71 DPS on 5 dotted mobs, that is the equivalent of a max level water pet with full buffs and muzzle that is backstabbing. That means your Shaman with Epic is a mage pet + all of the utility a shaman has to offer. You could also include your Shaman pet for another 15ish DPS if you are comfortable controlling them while doing other things.

[Crede]

There are a few things wrong with this logic.

1. A Shaman/SK duo is not killing mobs every 30 seconds when they are level 50+, which is when the Shaman would be using their Epic. If your group is killing one mob every 30 seconds, you already have enough DPS in your group.

2. Using your own calculation of 71 DPS on 5 dotted mobs, that is the equivalent of a max level water pet with full buffs and muzzle that is backstabbing. That means your Shaman with Epic is a mage pet + all of the utility a shaman has to offer. You could also include your Shaman pet for another 15ish DPS if you are comfortable controlling them while doing other things.

Both points are total fallacies btw. But we already know this so no need to explain why.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Both points are total fallacies btw. But we already know this so no need to explain why.

You can't explain why you think what I said are fallacies. That is why you "don't need to explain it". Nice excuse lol. It's painfully obvious to see you have nothing to back up your claims.

Please explain if you actually have a point to make. Otherwise you are just spouting nonsense as a hail mary, and hope that people believe it.

[Toxigen]

well im leaving early today, ill see this thread at 20+ pages on monday

[Snaggles]

There are a few things wrong with this logic.

1. A Shaman/SK duo is not killing mobs every 30 seconds when they are level 50+, which is when the Shaman would be using their Epic. If your group is killing one mob every 30 seconds, you already have enough DPS in your group.

2. Using your own calculation of 71 DPS on 5 dotted mobs, that is the equivalent of a max level water pet with full buffs and muzzle that is backstabbing. That means your Shaman with Epic is a mage pet + all of the utility a shaman has to offer. You could also include your Shaman pet for another 15ish DPS if you are comfortable controlling them while doing other things.

I responded to your post talking about a shaman in a GROUP doing DPS and you quote me and insert a scenario where it’s a SK duo. See how that’s problematic? I didn’t assume a duo was burning down geos in 30 seconds, lol. However, if killing nobles or bards in HK 30 second kills are very easy.

Because I’m a glutton for punishment I’ll respond in good faith to this new premise:

1. Don’t refer to a shaman as “dps” if with a SK duo. Just dont. By any stretch of the definition it’s a toddler bragging about whose dad is “stronger”. A free 14dps dot is like less than half of the SK pet.

2. 71 dps between 5 mobs is not the same as on one target. By doing that feat of clicking you are speeding up the overall kill time but not as much as you think. Rerooting, heals, just in general it’s a PITA. I had 5 geos in camp with a duo (I was PL’ing) last night, I did not steal one kill from a 56 ranger even with my pet and epic dotting constantly.

In a group of two (lol) if the SK is doing 50dps, their pet is doing 25’ish DPS, and a shaman is doing 14dps and let’s say mixing in JBB’s when possible can bump that to 30dps (would have to be clicking JBB 50% of the time uninterrupted)….guess what? You are still not the dps of the group. Only adding a bit more.

[Ripqozko]

I’m gonna need 3 hours of logs posted here to prove this, don’t send parses only logs. The burden of proof is on you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I responded to your post talking about a shaman in a GROUP doing DPS and you quote me and insert a scenario where it’s a SK duo. See how that’s problematic? I didn’t assume a duo was burning down geos in 30 seconds, lol. However, if killing nobles or bards in HK 30 second kills are very easy.


You do realize the topic is about a Shaman/X duo, correct? I am not inserting a scenario, I am sticking to the topic at hand. The only problem here is other posters keep bringing in off-topic discussions because they are salty about another thread.


1. Don’t refer to a shaman as “dps” if with a SK duo. Just dont. By any stretch of the definition it’s a toddler bragging about whose dad is “stronger”. A free 14dps dot is like less than half of the SK pet.


I didn't refer to a Shaman as a DPS class. I said they can do good DPS, which is factually true. I am not sure why people have this idea that only DPS classes can output good DPS. If the numbers show a class can output good DPS, it doesn't matter what their class specification is. An Enchanter isn't designated as a DPS class either, but they do great DPS.


2. 71 dps between 5 mobs is not the same as on one target. By doing that feat of clicking you are speeding up the overall kill time but not as much as you think. Rerooting, heals, just in general it’s a PITA. I had 5 geos in camp with a duo (I was PL’ing) last night, I did not steal one kill from a 56 ranger even with my pet and epic dotting constantly.


DPS is DPS. It is the same thing. Just look at the math. If your group does 100 DPS to a single target, and you have 5 mobs rooted in camp with 4000 HP each, it will take 200 seconds to kill all 5 mobs, fighting them one at a time.

Two rounds of Epic DoTs will deal 2850 damage to each of the 5 targets over 220 seconds if you include the first round's casting time for each Epic click. If your SK does 50 DPS, they only need to fight each mob for 30 seconds roughly speaking while the DoTs are ticking. You just need the SK to switch targets every 30 seconds or so to get the DPS needed to kill each mob including the two rounds of DoTs. The strategy differs slightly, but the results are the same.


In a group of two (lol) if the SK is doing 50dps, their pet is doing 25’ish DPS, and a shaman is doing 14dps and let’s say mixing in JBB’s when possible can bump that to 30dps (would have to be clicking JBB 50% of the time uninterrupted)….guess what? You are still not the dps of the group. Only adding a bit more.

Your Shaman numbers are way off. You are just pulling them out of thin air lol.

Let's say the duo perfers to fight one mob at a time. The mobs in the area have 4000 HP each, and the SK does 70 DPS including the pet.

1. EBolt does 128 damage per tick over 8 ticks if you include the initial 146 damage divided by 8.
2. Hasted level 55 Shaman pet does around 100 damage per tick.
3. JBB does 128 damage per tick over 6 ticks if you cast it three times.
4. Using the numbers above, the Shaman is doing 356 damage per tick. That is 59 DPS.
5. The SK + pet does 420 damage per tick.

The mob would go down in roughly 6 ticks if they are taking 776 damage per tick. The Shaman is doing roughly 85% of the SK's damage using the strategy above. This strategy is similar to what I did when I was soloing with JBB on my Shaman while leveling. It 100% works fine. This is also not including the DPS increase the SK/SK pet get from the Shaman's Haste spell. With haste that probably ends up closing the DPS gap, which means the Shaman is effectively doubling the duo's DPS.

However, a mid 50s Shaman with Epic can do more than 59 DPS by root rotting 4+ targets instead of single targeting with JBB. So you might as well take advantage of that fact if you have Epic, because you will increase your DPS further.

[Snaggles]

If you think 14 dps off shaman epic is “good dps” I’m not sure how to explain it any better.

In that regard, bards are the best dps class because they can swarm 25npcs at once without a tick of mana. That’s like 1500dmg every 6 seconds. Maybe bards and shamans should duo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you think 14 dps off shaman epic is “good dps” I’m not sure how to explain it any better.

In that regard, bards are the best dps class because they can swarm 25npcs at once without a tick of mana. That’s like 1500dmg every 6 seconds. Maybe bards and shamans should duo.

Yes, bards do really good DPS when swarming. You have the right idea now. That is why they power level people. I don't know how much damage per tick a bard can do when swarming. Looking at their spells, one of their PBAoE spells does 30 damage per tick. That means if they only use 1 PBAoE spell, they are doing 30 x 25 = 750 per tick, or 125 DPS. If you are inferring the 1500 damage comes from using 2x PBAoE spells, that means the bard is doing 250 DPS while swarming. Hasted Rogues that are backstabbing are doing 120ish DPS to normal mobs if they are using Epic in their main hand.

More simultaneous DoTs = More DPS. Each individual mob in a bard swarm is only taking 5 DPS. But 5 multiplied by 25 is 125.

[Snaggles]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Bard_Instruments

[skulldudes]

cool another

https://media.tenor.com/1VeybuINCpQAAAAC/sml-cody.gif

thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Bard_Instruments

Ah I see what you are saying. The single PBAoE spell is getting multiplied by the instrument. So you are doing like 60 damage per mob instead of 30 from a single PBAoE tick. Makes sense!

So Bards do like 250 DPS while swarming 25 mobs because 10 DPS (60 Damage / 6 seconds) x 25 Mobs = 250 DPS. That is why they are the kings of power leveling. Swarm kiting just feels slower because each mob is dying slower. But mathematically you killed the same number of mobs in the same amount of time as a group that focuses their combined 250 DPS into one mob at a time.

Now you should understand why Shamans can do more DPS than you think. When DoTing more than one mob with your Epic, you are multiplying your Epic DoT's DPS for each mob DoTed. The multiplier is not as large as a Bard's multiplier since the Epic's cast time extends the time it takes for each mob to become DoTed, but the same logic applies.

[Naethyn]

Careful you’re going to summon that most dps server breaking record enchanter who has like 5 records in his sig.

[Troxx]

2. Using your own calculation of 71 DPS on 5 dotted mobs, that is the equivalent of a max level water pet with full buffs and muzzle that is backstabbing. That means your Shaman with Epic is a mage pet + all of the utility a shaman has to offer. You could also include your Shaman pet for another 15ish DPS if you are comfortable controlling them while doing other things.

5x rooted mobs = 5x 9 sec click you’re refreshing (45 seconds per 90 sec duration dot cycle).
Plus the time spent pulling those mobs
Plus the time spent casting root on those mobs
Plus the time spent refreshing root on mobs when/if they break
Plus all the time lost clicking your targets, managing your timers and cycling through which mob needs what and when (nobody is perfect).

That doesn’t leave very much time per 90 seconds to do really anything else.

All so you can keep up with a mage pet? Not even factoring the inherent risk of keeping 5-6 mobs in camp at all times? And only if each dot magically ends a mobs life at highest tick so “real” dps isn’t hampered by the nature of this unique dot?

Lol. You’re not making a strong argument here. You effectively take away what a shaman is best at (utility) in a futile attempt to pretend you are dps.

[Crede]

5x rooted mobs = 5x 9 sec click you’re refreshing (45 seconds per 90 sec duration dot cycle).
Plus the time spent pulling those mobs
Plus the time spent casting root on those mobs
Plus the time spent refreshing root on mobs when/if they break
Plus all the time lost clicking your targets, managing your timers and cycling through which mob needs what and when (nobody is perfect).

That doesn’t leave very much time per 90 seconds to do really anything else.

All so you can keep up with a mage pet? Not even factoring the inherent risk of keeping 5-6 mobs in camp at all times? And only if each dot magically ends a mobs life at highest tick so “real” dps isn’t hampered by the nature of this unique dot?

Lol. You’re not making a strong argument here. You effectively take away what a shaman is best at (utility) in a futile attempt to pretend you are dps.

It’s just bad dsm napkin math. He recommended to not do it in droga, yet that’s a viable strat in a harder zone? Lol. This has all been debunked in the big caster thread. He just can’t let it go. Solo shamans in super controlled environments are root rotting like 3-4 on average. Maybe 5 tops. It just gets crazy to manage. Guarantee you if we actually made a group with an epic mage/velk with 2 enc they would obliterate shaman dps.

He’s basically arguing that Usain Bolt can run a marathon in an hour based on his 100m record.

[Vivitron]

Ah I see what you are saying. The single PBAoE spell is getting multiplied by the instrument. So you are doing like 60 damage per mob instead of 30 from a single PBAoE tick. Makes sense!
Yes the effects that get instrument modded are multiplied by the mod/10, so a 24 mod instrument with a 30 damage song does 2.4*30.

So Bards do like 250 DPS while swarming 25 mobs because 10 DPS (60 Damage / 6 seconds) x 25 Mobs = 250 DPS. That is why they are the kings of power leveling. Swarm kiting just feels slower because each mob is dying slower. But mathematically you killed the same number of mobs in the same amount of time as a group that focuses their combined 250 DPS into one mob at a time.

The 4 ae spells all stack and you sing them all, except that the level 48 spell doesn't stack with ae snare (you only ae snare in tight spaces like hs though), and the fourth dot isn't until 59.

According to the wiki, base damage on the lute ae songs are 30, 32, 18; and the brass ae's base damage is 19. Don't forget the moving npc dot damage nerf (multiply the damage by .66, I think). A little napkin math suggests BIS instruments put you at like 180 dps on a 10 mob kite where you have to snare, up to over 600 dps on a 25 mob kite where you don't. RIP Bard DN spider ae (it was nerfed by making the spiders summon); that may be the only place where pling on 25 mobs blue to a 60 was really practical.

[Troxx]

Shamans = a hell of a class. Superb solo ability. Amazing group utility (2-6 players). Easy to primary heal on at all levels, better even at 60. They have a pet which adds some dps and can tank/offtank in a pinch. They can SUPPLEMENT killing/dps with mana free clickies, burstyish dots, and even longer dots on high hp mobs. Yes they can root an add and toss some clicks - it IS helpful.

They are so great at so many things. I know. Mine is 60.

What they aren’t good at is dedicated dps. If they go absolutely apeshit casting dots/nukes and clicks along with their pet all while furiously canni-ing and self healing they are the rough equivalent of a level 50-51 Ranger in EC gear at 60 with torpor.

Again, no shaman hate. They are absolutely amazing.

They just aren’t dps.

For sustained dps they’re really only more effective than clerics, Druids/wizards (mana regen woes), and meleeing bards. If the group they are in needs a lot of utility uptime (buffs, slows, heals, cc) .. their dps is in the shitter - well below bards.

Hell, I probably have put out more damage on my cleric in some groups using extra mana to nuke in a high activity group where the shaman is juggling the job they do best. Complete heal need is infrequent and efficient … as are undead nukes.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shamans = a hell of a class. Superb solo ability. Amazing group utility (2-6 players). Easy to primary heal on at all levels, better even at 60. They have a pet which adds some dps and can tank/offtank in a pinch. They can SUPPLEMENT killing/dps with mana free clickies, burstyish dots, and even longer dots on high hp mobs. Yes they can root an add and toss some clicks - it IS helpful.

They are so great at so many things. I know. Mine is 60.

What they aren’t good at is dedicated dps. If they go absolutely apeshit casting dots/nukes and clicks along with their pet all while furiously canni-ing and self healing they are the rough equivalent of a level 50-51 Ranger in EC gear at 60 with torpor.

Again, no shaman hate. They are absolutely amazing.

They just aren’t dps.

For sustained dps they’re really only more effective than clerics, Druids/wizards (mana regen woes), and meleeing bards.

Again, you keep saying Shamans can't do good DPS, but you don't back this up with any data. Please stop, you are just providing misinformation. Enchanters also aren't classified as a DPS class, but they do great DPS.

Shamans can provide good DPS while also providing utility. If you don't understand this, you need to play the class more.

[Troxx]

Coming from the guy caught on video unable to solo 4 mobs in KC …

[Vexenu]

"Group LF DPS, Shaman preferred."

These words have never been typed in the history of EverQuest. I wonder why?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Coming from the guy caught on video unable to solo 4 mobs in KC …

When you can't win with facts and logic, you make up lies. Your typical posting pattern unfortunately. You can watch my channel and see that I can solo harder content than KC. Penish is simply lying, and you bought into it because you prefer to troll people instead of have an adult conversation. Penish has yet to post the video, because he knows he didn't catch me do anything. He jumped the gun because he was too eager to troll me, and lost his chance. As I said before, be careful when playing with Penish in the future, he will troll you in game and waste your time.

[Troxx]

Every class can put out dps. Some do it well. Some do it badly. Shamans can put out some dps. They can do it better than a few classes hands down. But they have to work really hard and focus exclusively on it to come anywhere close to a scrub, fairly poorly geared melee several levels below them.

Great class.

“Meh” dps in a group.

Decent damage contribution in a duo or trio of the content easily allows, but still lower than any comparably geared melee by a college mile or necro/mage pet (excluding the pet owners contributions).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Every class can put out dps. Some do it well. Some do it badly. Shamans can put out some dps. They can do it better than a few classes hands down. But they have to work really hard and focus exclusively on it to come anywhere close to a scrub, fairly poorly geared melee several levels below them.

Great class.

“Meh” dps in a group.

Decent damage contribution in a duo or trio of the content easily allows, but still lower than any comparably geared melee by a college mile or necro/mage pet (excluding the pet owners contributions).

I agree that DPS oriented classes do more DPS than a Shaman. That doesn't mean a Shaman's DPS is bad, or that their utility doesn't make up for their lower DPS.

Again, if you want to claim that Shamans objectively have low DPS on average, you need to bring some data. Otherwise you are just guessing.

[Crede]

I agree that DPS oriented classes do more DPS than a Shaman. That doesn't mean a Shaman's DPS is bad, or that their utility doesn't make up for their lower DPS.

Again, if you want to claim that Shamans objectively have low DPS on average, you need to bring some data. Otherwise you are just guessing.

Luckily you brought it for us, doing about 5 dps over 3 hours in an HS group. Saved us having to prove what we already knew.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Luckily you brought it for us, doing about 5 dps over 3 hours in an HS group. Saved us having to prove what we already knew.

You keep forgetting the purpose of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI was not to show the max DPS a Shaman can do in a group. It was to disprove the idea that a Shaman's group DPS can never be the same as a Shaman's solo DPS. That is why I was using Ice Strike, to show the 1:1 comparison to this solo video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E . You can indeed use a solo video to show how a class can perform DPS-wise in a group. Honestly this is such a simple concept that I shouldn't have needed to do it in the first place.

The HS group was a pickup group of two sub 60 characters who had never done HS west before. I myself was rusty at doing it. Of course the video isn't going to show what a group of 60s who know the zone like the back of their hand can do. Why would you think that lol? You just keep making yourself look foolish with these silly attempts at trolling.

[Crede]

You keep forgetting the purpose of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI was not to show the max DPS a Shaman can do in a group. It was to disprove the idea that you cannot translate a solo DPS video into a group scenario. That is why I was using Ice Strike, to show the 1:1 comparison to this solo video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E . Honestly this is such a simple concept that I shouldn't have needed to do it in the first place.

The HS group was a pickup group of two sub 60 characters who had never done HS west before. I myself was rusty at doing it. Of course the video isn't going to show what a group of 60s who know the zone like the back of their hand can do. Why would you think that lol? You just keep making yourself look foolish with these silly attempts at trolling.

Ahh that’s right, you tried to “gotcha” us with that poor attempt at that to be able to say solo super slow/controlled root rotting = fast kill group scenario.

Nobody bought it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ahh that’s right, you tried to “gotcha” us with that poor attempt at that to be able to say solo super slow/controlled root rotting = fast kill group scenario.

Nobody bought it.

Why would I post a video showing myself doing lower DPS that I normally would to show that Shamans can do higher DPS? It makes zero sense lol. Your constant trolling has clearly rotted your brain.

If I was worried about showing the highest DPS possible, I wouldn't have posted the video at all. I would have made a video of me playing with two or three level 60 characters who knew what they were doing.

The purpose of the video was to disprove one of the core ideas that caused the four man group thread to spiral out of control. That idea was that you cannot use a solo DPS video to simulate group DPS. I proved this idea wrong. You can use a solo DPS video to simulate group DPS.

[Troxx]

The burden of proof is on you DSM. It is unfortunate you never did what was asked of you in this thread.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

You never joined a fast paced group (or hell even normal group) to log your dps over any extended period of time across multiple fights while competing for damage done with others. You just gave us napkin math and videos of you soloing low level seb trash as “surrogate proof”.

The established “truth” is known. Shamans aren’t gonna be good dps in a group over extended periods of time.

If you want to challenge that truth - you gotta provide that *factual evidence* you like to demand from others. Go join a group (big or small). Parse your damage and your pets damage over time. Do your damndest to do your best. Parse the other dps in the group too. Show us how it goes after a few dozen fights.

[Ripqozko]

The burden of proof is on you DSM. It is unfortunate you never did what was asked of you in this thread.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

You never joined a fast paced group (or hell even normal group) to log your dps over any extended period of time across multiple fights while competing for damage done with others. You just gave us napkin math and videos of you soloing low level seb trash as “surrogate proof”.

The established “truth” is known. Shamans aren’t gonna be good dps in a group over extended periods of time.

If you want to challenge that truth - you gotta provide that *factual evidence* you like to demand from others. Go join a group (big or small). Parse your damage and your pets damage over time. Do your damndest to do your best. Parse the other dps in the group too. Show us how it goes after a few dozen fights.

And we need 3 hours of logs, don’t give us parses. Parses are not accurate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The burden of proof is on you DSM. It is unfortunate you never did what was asked of you in this thread.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

You never joined a fast paced group (or hell even normal group) to log your dps over any extended period of time across multiple fights while competing for damage done with others. You just gave us napkin math and videos of you soloing low level seb trash as “surrogate proof”.

The established “truth” is known. Shamans aren’t gonna be good dps in a group over extended periods of time.

If you want to challenge that truth - you gotta provide that *factual evidence* you like to demand from others. Go join a group (big or small). Parse your damage and your pets damage over time. Do your damndest to do your best. Parse the other dps in the group too. Show us how it goes after a few dozen fights.

You didn't meet your own standard in the first place. There is no proof your pixelated screenshot of an excel spreadsheet was your DPS in a group at all, much less a fast paced or "normal" group. Bring a video and logs first before asking others. I provided way more evidence than you did, including videos and logs. I disproved your idea that you cannot use solo videos to simulate group DPS. I made a group video to do it too! The burden of proof is on you to provide ANY evidence for your claims lol. You have nothing, and expect everybody else to do all the work. I am sorry, but a pixelated screenshot of an excel spreadsheet is very flimsy evidence that you did anything you claimed to do.

That is why you resort to trolling. You know you have nothing, so you use underhanded tactics to try and pretend to be correct. You are taking the easy way out. If it was easy to disprove what I have been saying, you would have posted a video with logs last year.

[Keebz]

There's almost never a good reason to respond to DSM. Just let him ramble into the void.

[Gloomlord]

I honestly think Troxx is a little too nice trying to explain to him things he already knows.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I honestly think Troxx is a little too nice trying to explain to him things he already knows.

Troxx regularly attacks people he disagrees with on these forums. You do too. You have 350+ posts of it. That is not really nice behavior.

I don't attack anyone I disagree with. I only defend myself from nonsense like this.

I have spent a lot of time providing evidence and presenting multiple variations of explanations to try and help people understand the game.

You and Troxx have done none of that. You just insult people and think that is how you communicate your ideas. Either you are delusional, or are just trolling some more.

There's almost never a good reason to respond to DSM. Just let him ramble into the void.

When you can't win with facts and logic, you simply attack people you disagree with.

[Gloomlord]

https://i.etsystatic.com/6782226/r/il/402b87/701495995/il_1080xN.701495995_em32.jpg

[Penish]

DSM confirmed retard, lets LoL together

[Vivitron]

DSM confirmed retard, lets LoL together

You turned tail and ran away when it was clear he was going to prove you wrong.

[Troxx]

DSM is actually right about a lot of things. He is situationally a good source of information. There are a few things that he is just flat wrong on (hey none of us are perfect) … and several other things he is highly opinionated but are subjective (ie regen vs FSI). Especially with FSI … that one can be a matter of opinion. If you truly value that FSI … it may be a thing you’re willing to sacrifice regen for … and that’s ok as long as you know what you’re giving up.

The big problem is that whatever his opinion is, he digs in fully and is incapable of abstract thought. Beyond that, incredibly condescending.

DSM threads end up being about a fairly narrow range of topics - generally relating to shamans, SKs, and his personal preferences as it relates to race/class combos.

Narrow-mindedness, lack of humility, and a warped view of the scientific method are the issue.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is actually right about a lot of things. He is situationally a good source of information. There are a few things that he is just flat wrong on (hey none of us are perfect) … and several other things he is highly opinionated but are subjective (ie regen vs FSI). Especially with FSI … that one can be a matter of opinion. If you truly value that FSI … it may be a thing you’re willing to sacrifice regen for … and that’s ok as long as you know what you’re giving up.

The big problem is that whatever his opinion is, he digs in fully and is incapable of abstract thought. Beyond that, incredibly condescending.

DSM threads end up being about a fairly narrow range of topics - generally relating to shamans, SKs, and his personal preferences as it relates to race/class combos.

Narrow-mindedness, lack of humility, and a warped view of the scientific method are the issue.

I use to think he was a troll because tbh its a good ass troll, but I think he’s just oblivious now.

[Naethyn]

The best race is the one you like most on the velious fashion page.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is actually right about a lot of things. He is situationally a good source of information. There are a few things that he is just flat wrong on (hey none of us are perfect) … and several other things he is highly opinionated but are subjective (ie regen vs FSI). Especially with FSI … that one can be a matter of opinion. If you truly value that FSI … it may be a thing you’re willing to sacrifice regen for … and that’s ok as long as you know what you’re giving up.

The big problem is that whatever his opinion is, he digs in fully and is incapable of abstract thought. Beyond that, incredibly condescending.

DSM threads end up being about a fairly narrow range of topics - generally relating to shamans, SKs, and his personal preferences as it relates to race/class combos.

Narrow-mindedness, lack of humility, and a warped view of the scientific method are the issue.

I appreciate you are toning down your obvious insults and trolling. It looks like you are finally learning that being a complete asshole to everybody all the time is not the way to get people to agree with you. You also aren't insulting autistic people anymore, which is good.

You claim I have a warped view of the scientific method, but the warped view is clearly your own. You think a pixelated screenshot of an excel spreadsheet is superior evidence to videos with logs. Unlike yourself, I have never said my evidence is 100% conclusive with no room for doubt. If you can provide better evidence I will happily admit defeat. The problem is you DON'T provide better evidence. You stubbornly hold on to the idea your pixelated screenshot of an excel spreadsheet is the only data you need to prove you are correct. You keep asking other people to provide evidence for your own claims, which isn't how the process works.

You claim I am unable to think abstractly, but you are the one who needs a video of me specifically in a four man group doing DPS to see how much DPS a Shaman can do. You cannot use abstract thinking to translate a solo DPS video into a group DPS situation.

You claim I lack humility, but you are the one who is resorting to trolling when you don't want to admit you may be wrong. You are so desperate to be correct that you will accept the help of other trolls to gang up on people you disagree with. This gives the illusion other people agree with you, which boosts your ego.

You claim I am narrow minded, but you are the one who keeps saying that all the truth has been discovered, which is why you don't need to provide evidence for your claims.

This is why you are narrow minded, unable to think abstractly, lack humility, and have a warped view of the scientific method. The accusations you hurtle at me are simply projections of your own issues. Fix yourself and bring real evidence to prove me wrong. If what I am saying is so obviously wrong, it should be very easy to do this.

If you want to be a troll, go full troll so people know what you are. If you want to help people on these forums, don't troll at all. Being in the middle is the worst of both worlds, because nobody can tell when you are being serious, and when you are trolling. You just discredit yourself, and aren't funny doing it.

[Duik]

Way to snatch an insult from the maw of compliment.
Also.
TB;DR
To Boring;Didn't Read (beyond the second condicentence) new word, call the dictionary.

[Gloomlord]

DSM: Troxx was saying you're not completely bereft of virtue, just that you need to tone your arrogance down.

I mean, come on...you are arrogant. You say things like "I won't ignore you because you can redeem yourself" without seeing the irony.

I know I said I wasn't going to address you anymore in this thread, but you need a wakeup call.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Way to snatch an insult from the maw of compliment.
Also.
TB;DR
To Boring;Didn't Read (beyond the second condicentence) new word, call the dictionary.

A backhanded compliment is not a compliment. Nobody needs Troxx's backhanded compliments. He just needs to stop lying, trolling, and turning every thread into an RnF thread. If he wants to do RnF posting, he needs to stick to RnF. He can insult, lie, and troll there all he wants. Or he can learn from this and try to better himself. Hopefully he will do the latter.

DSM: Troxx was saying you're not completely bereft of virtue, just that you need to tone your arrogance down.

I mean, come on...you are arrogant. You say things like "I won't ignore you because you can redeem yourself" without seeing the irony.

I know I said I wasn't going to address you anymore in this thread, but you need a wakeup call.

You probably now have 400+ posts that exclusively look like this. You don't log on to these forums to help people. You log on to insult and troll people. Please fix yourself before trying to fix others. If you want to try and give me a "wakeup call", do it in RnF where it belongs.

[Gloomlord]

Why do keep bringing up how most of my posts are insulting you? We've already established that and I don't deny it. It's because you bring out the worst in people, DSM. You already incite people to anger without me chipping in.

You're just changing the subject because you know I'm right.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do keep bringing up how most of my posts are insulting you? We've already established that and I don't deny it. It's because you bring out the worst in people, DSM. You already incite people to anger without me chipping in.

You're just changing the subject because you know I'm right.

The only irony is you have 400+ posts out of 500 posts that are exclusively trolls and insults, while you demand I fix myself.

You really need to look in the mirror and stop blaming me for your bad behavior. Your logic that I am forcing you to act like an asshole on this forum is just absolute nonsense. Take responsibility for your own actions.

[Gloomlord]

Repeating yourself will do you no favours...

I may have insulted you, but I am not an arsehole like you. Full stop.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

but I am not an arsehole

400/500 of your posts show otherwise lol.

[Gloomlord]

To you. Geez, I wonder why...?

"LOL"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To you. Geez, I wonder why...?

"LOL"

Thank you for admitting you are acting like an asshole to me. That means you are acting like an asshole. It's really that simple. It doesn't matter how many people you do it to, you are still acting like an asshole.

Next time, if you think I am wrong, formulate 400+ posts that use evidence and logic to prove it. The only thing you keep proving is that you are an asshole by your own volition.

[Gloomlord]

Someone even told you before that you incite people to anger to otherwise completely calm and reasonable people on this forum.

It's a shame that blatant fact flies over your head. You should be exceedingly thankful to be blessed with insanity, because it has enabled you to endure yourself.

Edit: missing word

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Someone even told you before that you incite people to anger

I cannot fix your anger management issues, or the anger management issues of other posters on this forum.

You need to fix that problem yourself. Your 400/500 troll/insult posts show you are not a calm and reasonable person here. The norm is for you to insult people you disagree with, it's 80% of your post history.

[Gloomlord]

Wait a minute. I know you're a lunatic, but can you genuinely not remember the times you've gone into threads and most people decide to insult and mock you?

You genuinely don't think it has anything to do with your behaviour?

Pointing out my post history at this point is just an admission of your guilt.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait a minute. I know you're a lunatic, but can you genuinely not remember the times you've gone into threads and most people decide to insult and mock you?

You genuinely don't think it has anything to do with your behaviour?

Pointing out my post history at this point is just an admission of your guilt.

How do you expect me to fix your compulsive behavior to insult people due to anger management issues? I didn't create those 400+ posts of trolling/insults. You did. Blaming me for your fingers typing is absolute nonsense.

[Gloomlord]

So, when those people became angry with you, that was just on them, was it?

You think people just become angry with you for no reason? Is that what you're saying?

Don't you realise that very same behaviour is what incited me in the first place to knock you off your high horse?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So, when those people became angry with you, that was just on them, was it?


Yes. That is completely on them and yourself. If you are rage posting on an elf forum, the solution is to stop rage posting on the elf forum and calm yourself.

I am not the only poster on the internet. Your anger management problem will not go away if I stopped posting this very second. You will just find someone else to rage post at until you can fix your anger management issues.

[Gloomlord]

No more games...

I call your bluff! You know you're a lying narcissist that argues in the most obnoxious manner possible.

You're acting willfully obtuse now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No more games...

I call your bluff! You know you're a lying narcissist that argues in the most obnoxious manner possible.

You're acting willfully obtuse now.

It seems like what I said has resonated with you. I think that is progress. This is your defense mechanism, because you are not ready to address your anger management issues.

You have to fix your own anger management issues. I cannot do it for you, and this pattern of rage posting on elf forums isn't going to solve your problems.

[PatChapp]

Part of a shamans role in a melee/shaman duo is cc. If I was duoing with a shaman and they didn't at least epic dot the rooted adds I would be very unimpressed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Part of a shamans role in a melee/shaman duo is cc. If I was duoing with a shaman and they didn't at least epic dot the rooted adds I would be very unimpressed.

Agreed!

[Gloomlord]

Ah, so then why are you bothering to respond to me?

I'm just an "angry troll", yet you decide to engage with me? Could it actually be that you know I'm right and that you need convince yourself otherwise?

The only one you can convince is yourself at this point, because noone else is buying your nonsense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, so then why are you bothering to respond to me?

I'm just an "angry troll", yet you decide to engage with me? Could it actually be that you know I'm right and that you need convince yourself otherwise?

The only one you can convince is yourself at this point, because noone else is buying your nonsense.

It's really quite simple. I don't have a grudge against anyone on these forums, including yourself.

I am confident you can fix your anger management issues if you realize you have them. You can keep insulting me if you want, but you aren't going to accomplish whatever goal you think you are trying to achieve by exclusively trolling and insulting people. The only thing you are doing is looking like an asshole.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/rmtvkkGm7xYAAAAM/laugh-cant-hold-it-in.gif

[Gloomlord]

You can't have it both ways...

You can't say Troxx and I are trolling for the mere sake of it, then decide to engage with us. That reveals you're a liar who keeps the flames going for either your amusement or to save face because you know you look foolish.

You know I've checkmated you here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can't have it both ways...

You can't say Troxx and I are trolling for the mere sake of it, then decide to engage with us. That reveals you're a liar who keeps the flames going for either your amusement or to save face because you know you look foolish.

You know I've checkmated you here.

I certainly can have it both ways, and I do!

Your strange ideas of what people "must" do are simply delusions. I don't have to follow whatever nonsensical ideas you have in your head.

Please fix your anger management issues so you can be a positive poster here.

[Gloomlord]

You can't have it both ways in a logical sense, because you're contradicting yourself.

I can't claim someone is an angry arsehole whilst I go completely out of my way to annoy them and exacerbate the situation.

Read what I'm writing before you childishly reply "I can have it both ways!".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can't have it both ways in a logical sense, because you're contradicting yourself.

I can't claim someone is an angry arsehole whilst I go completely out of my way to annoy them and exacerbate the situation.

Read what I'm writing before you childishly reply "I can have it both ways!".

The problem is you assume people must operate in specific ways, and there is no grey area. Your "logic" is deeply flawed. This may be why you keep talking in circles. You cannot seem to understand that people can operate outside of the assumptions within your head.

[Gloomlord]

Of course you can continue to act like a hypocrite without seeing the logic. Not saying you can't.

It's just indicating to us you are indeed a pathetic person who can't admit you're incorrect.

How on earth could you misinterpret what I mean with "you can't have it both ways"?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Of course you can continue to act like a hypocrite without seeing the logic. Not saying you can't.

It's just indicating to us you are indeed a pathetic person who can't admit you're incorrect.

How on earth could you misinterpret what I mean with "you can't have it both ways"?

I didnt misinterpret it. I simply disagree with your flawed logic that " if a person does X, it must be for Y reason!". That is a nonsensical idea.

[Gloomlord]

Are you aware of what the word "hypocrisy" means?

You're a "smart" man. I'm sure you can figure it out. It has nothing to do with "if a person does X, it must be for Y reason", but we already knew that.

Regardless, you know you've been checkmated here. I'm sorry you lack the humility to admit defeat.

Anyone else want to try reasoning with this creature?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you aware of what the word "hypocrisy" means?

You're a "smart" man. I'm sure you can figure it out. It has nothing to do with "if a person does X, it must be for Y reason", but we already knew that.

Regardless, you know you've been checkmated here. I'm sorry you lack the humility to admit defeat.

Anyone else want to try reasoning with this creature?

Yes, I know what hypocrisy means. You clearly do not, because you seem to think it is hypocritical to engage with an obvious troll such as yourself.

I disagree with that idea, and I believe this is why you keep acting like a fool on these forums. You have a very rigid ideology, where if a person does a specific action, it can only be for a specific reason. You ignore the complexity of human behavior.

I can indeed engage with an obvious troll such as yourself in an attempt to get you to see reason. Is it futile? Probably. Do I care that it is probably futile? No. I think you can redeem yourself, and I hope that you do!

[Gloomlord]

Troxx, you want to take over, man? Maybe another person telling him this will pierce through the insanity.

DSM clearly isn't clever enough to see he's been exposed for the millionth time already.

[Troxx]

This is fun.

Nobody wins discussing anything with DSM but it sure is entertaining!

[Duik]

DSM is trying to
A: Save the noob from "le bad info" from trolls and
B: Save the trolls from themselves so they can be better. He knows they (we?) can.
C: It takes one person telling him he is a clever troll (race!), for him to run with that. But 10's of others will never convince him he is, or ever could be wrong.

DSM: Damage Simulation Manipulator.

DUIK: Dispensing Unsolicited Inspiring Knowledge.

[Gloomlord]

Notice how he tried to tell people in the 4 man caster thread to "ignore the trolls"? Who in the hell was he talking to by that point? Nobody was on his side.

It almost seems like he has a psychosis going on.

[Guesty07]

Speaks into the void. Like the readers are all in agreement with him lol

[Gloomlord]

I notice how Reddit is like if the place was populated by people like DSM who are paid to control dissent using the very same arguing tactics and will downvote you to oblivion and even ban you if you go against the Reddit's agendas. Which is why I feel a particular disdain for DSM: I don't want a repeat of shitty people you see in Reddit like DSM in a forum like this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I notice how Reddit is like if the place was populated by people like DSM who are paid to control dissent using the very same arguing tactics and will downvote you to oblivion and even ban you if you go against the Reddit's agendas. Which is why I feel a particular disdain for DSM: I don't want a repeat of shitty people you see in Reddit like DSM in a forum like this.

You should worry more about people like yourself on these forums. Please stop spamming threads with nonsense due to your anger management issues. I am not sure why you think anybody agrees with you. You have this delusion that you must stop me from making you angry. It's very nonsensical.

[Ripqozko]

i feel bad for kittens

[Troxx]

I am not sure why you think anybody agrees with you.

You are the only person who DOESN’T agree with him.


Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Adjective

Delusional

characterized by or holding false beliefs or judgments about external reality that are held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, typically as a symptom of a mental condition.
"hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are the only person who DOESN’T agree with him.


Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Adjective

Delusional

characterized by or holding false beliefs or judgments about external reality that are held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, typically as a symptom of a mental condition.
"hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia"

As usual you have no data to back up your claims.

Multiple bullies will tell you the sky is orange and yell at you when you correct them. Just because these bullies disagree with you, it doesn't mean they are correct.

Please stop spamming threads with nonsense. If you want to troll, stick to RnF. Nobody wants you to troll threads.

[Trelaboon]

Not me sitting here baffled that we’re having a 15 page argument about Shaman DPS lol

[Gloomlord]

As usual you have no data to back up your claims.

Multiple bullies will tell you the sky is orange and yell at you when you correct them. Just because these bullies disagree with you, it doesn't mean they are correct.

Please stop spamming threads with nonsense. If you want to troll, stick to RnF. Nobody wants you to troll threads.

Remember how many people disagreed with you in the infamous caster thread, DSM? You kept telling us "argumentum ad populum" over and over again, but then you switch to saying "I am not sure why you think anybody agrees with you".

Do you not see how much of a massive hypocrite you are, even if this were true?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Remember how many people disagreed with you in the infamous caster thread, DSM? You kept telling us "argumentum ad populum" over and over again, but then you switch to saying "I am not sure why you think anybody agrees with you".

Do you not see how much of a massive hypocrite you are, even if this were true?

You seem to not understand nuance. You are a troll who has 400+ posts that are only insults, and the only people who agree with you are other well known trolls.

Why do you think regular posters who aren't the normal trolls agree with you? There's no data to supoort this claim. You haven't done anything to win support. You just act like an asshole, while supplying nothing of value.

Not me sitting here baffled that we’re having a 15 page argument about Shaman DPS lol

I agree it is baffling. People like Troxx keep posting nonsense about Shaman DPS with no data to back it up.

[Gloomlord]

Okay, first off: the people who don't engage with you still don't like and/or agree with you. A lot of them just say "you're a moron/weirdo" and leave it at that. I'm pretty sure, even by your idiotic standards, they weren't "trolls".

Second of all: you didn't refute your own hypocrisy with your stupid post. It's another case of "having your cake and eating it too".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Okay, first off: the people who don't engage with you still didn't like and/or agree with you. A lot of them just say "you're a moron/weirdo" and leave it at that. I'm pretty sure, even by your idiotic standards, they weren't "trolls".

Second of all: you didn't refute your own hypocrisy with your stupid post. It's another case of "having your cake and eating it too".

It is completely fine for someone to disagree with me. There have been many posters over the years who aren't trolls who have disagreed with me. I am not sure why you think disagreement means they think you are a "moron/weirdo". Yet another nonsensical idea you have.

You are one of a handful of trolls on this forum who actively harasses me. I am not sure what you gain from it, it is just backfiring on you by making you look like an asshole. The more you expose yourself, the less people will listen to you.

Your ideas of my "hypocrisy" are baffling and nonsensical. I don't think anybody actually understands what you are talking about. "If a person does X, it must mean Y" is not a logical argument of any kind. People are not machines who must follow a strict behavioral pattern.

[Snaggles]

You can refute the "trolls" best by just discussing more about the original topic. Or adding literally anything beneficial to the community.

The travesty in the end isnt the trolls vs DSM but rather that so little actual discussion is taking place about the game itself.

Luckily these threads solve themselves in the first couple pages. Most the topics arent so profound that people cant read the wikis, reason, and make their own decisions.

What pairs well with a shaman? Hmm based on a quick scroll down the list of stat buffs, slows and heals I'm going out on a wild limb and guessing a melee would work ok. :rolleyes:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can refute the "trolls" best by just discussing more about the original topic. Or adding literally anything beneficial to the community.


I agree. I did a lot of that too! I have an entire youtube channel dedicated to helping people understand the game, and a detailed wiki guide. The problem is the trolls have resorted to creating many lies about the game and posters like myself, and constantly repeat them. This ends up causing confusion for any normal reader who doesn't understand forum drama.


The travesty in the end isnt the trolls vs DSM but rather that so little actual discussion is taking place about the game itself.


It is a travesty indeed. The solution to this problem is to stand up to the regular trolls who constantly create lies, so they stop. Otherwise the forum just becomes one giant RnF dumpster fire, where everybody is just trolling and lying. That is how the forum dies. People already avoid it because they get harassed by trolls, and nobody does anything to stop the trolls. This is why I keep asking people to stand up to them. Simply putting someone on block isn't helping the casual reader who doesn't know to block a specific troll.

[Duik]

What pairs well with a shaman? Hmm based on a quick scroll down the list of stat buffs, slows and heals I'm going out on a wild limb and guessing a melee would work ok.

On a serious note, would a mage with a woobs (pet) up count as a melee?
Say str sta dex (for splitpaw stun whips) etc add to dps like it does for a player char? Mage pet haste buff is better than shaman haste I think? Slow and heals. Root and chain casting. Many ways to do it.

And Lolocaust @ DSM protecting newbs from da naughty trolls cuz dey carnt workz out how dis forums workzes and block da disinformation.
All hailz Forum Champion DSM.
Disinformation Selection Moderator.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On a serious note, would a mage with a woobs (pet) up count as a melee?
Say str sta dex (for splitpaw stun whips) etc add to dps like it does for a player char? Mage pet haste buff is better than shaman haste I think? Slow and heals. Root and chain casting. Many ways to do it.

Yeah Mage would work fine with a Shaman. The Shaman solves the Mage's lack of CC, and the Shaman can slow tank the mob so the Mage can use a backstabbing pet. The only downside is the Mage's Damage Shield spells aren't quite as useful due to the mob being slowed, but it isn't the end of the world.

[Snaggles]

On a serious note, would a mage with a woobs (pet) up count as a melee?
Say str sta dex (for splitpaw stun whips) etc add to dps like it does for a player char? Mage pet haste buff is better than shaman haste I think? Slow and heals. Root and chain casting. Many ways to do it.

For 59 out of 60 levels (or a shaman on a budget) healing mana is limited. Stuns are a great way to mitigate incoming dps from a NPC outside slow. The air pet and stun whips especially with a malosini'd mob is a stunlock dream and far more tanky than an earth (unless comparing say the 49 air to the 57 earth). As for stat-buffing I would skip that completely, just slow the npc and let the mage keep their pet hasted with Burnout and DS. Even slowed a 30dmg DS is about 8dps on a npc that doubles. I used to use sham pots when farming chardok.

The spread between a good and bad pet is pretty severe and any pet 39+ regens at 30hp/sec. With a solid root & slow before the pet jumps in it's barely going to need a rest between pulls. Especially with regrowth on it. Plus keeping most your mana can come in handy for burndowns. Chain summoning without C2 is going to slowly take a toll on that ability. The sham can make more mana, IMHO, let them heal the pet and keep those stun whips equipped on a good one.

[Troxx]

As for stat-buffing I would skip that completely, just slow the npc and let the mage keep their pet hasted with Burnout and DS.

Disagree. The difference between a pet with shaman str alone vs same pet without shaman str is quite large. Pets benefit hugely from pumping up str. It doesn't raise their max hit but it raises their average hit by a good margin.

Sham + mage combo is actually quite strong. Mage pets will take less damage than a lot of melee classes out there.

[Snaggles]

Disagree. The difference between a pet with shaman str alone vs same pet without shaman str is quite large. Pets benefit hugely from pumping up str. It doesn't raise their max hit but it raises their average hit by a good margin.

Sham + mage combo is actually quite strong. Mage pets will take less damage than a lot of melee classes out there.

Do have any parsed information? Not trying to pull an evidence-request but just have always understood normal stat buffs do very little for npc dps. Hence why cripple in general is meh outside bored shamans during HoT raids.

I might carry a Frost Giant beard though with my mage and give it a whirl.

[Zuranthium]

Part of a shamans role in a melee/shaman duo is cc. If I was duoing with a shaman and they didn't at least epic dot the rooted adds I would be very unimpressed.

Shaman being a potential high tier DPS completely falls apart when fighting things that summon. You absolutely do not want to DoT the adds. You want to root them and not touch them with damage until it's time to kill.

[Gloomlord]

Shaman being a potential high tier DPS completely falls apart when fighting things that summon. You absolutely do not want to DoT the adds. You want to root them and not touch them with damage until it's time to kill.

Yet DSM root rots low level trash in a dungeon and uses this as proof of Shaman DPS superiority over a Magician...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman being a potential high tier DPS completely falls apart when fighting things that summon. You absolutely do not want to DoT the adds. You want to root them and not touch them with damage until it's time to kill.

Yet DSM root rots low level trash in a dungeon and uses this as proof of Shaman DPS superiority over a Magician...

These two quotes show you do not really know what you are talking about to be honest. Please name a zone where you are going to be killing tons of summoning trash for XP or loot with a duo/small group. This question is even trickier if we assume the duo/small group isn't level 60 yet.

Generally speaking you are either clearing non-summoning trash for XP, or you are camping a specific mob for loot and not plowing through a lot of summoning mobs.

When a Shaman needs to do single target DPS on a named mob or summoning mob, they can stack DoTs and use their pet + JBB. JBB + EBolt + Hasted Pet is already 55 DPS or so. Stack Epic DoT and Bane on top of that and your DPS is 80+.

You really need to think about these situations a little more.

[Zuranthium]

LOL, you have no clue. There many loot/faction farm spots where summoning MOBs are prevalent. Kael is a common one and JBB is also doing 0 DPS there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

LOL, you have no clue. There many loot/faction farm spots where summoning MOBs are prevalent. Kael is a common one and JBB is also doing 0 DPS there.

Which mobs are the Shaman/X duo going to be fighting that summon in Kael? Especially before level 60? 4 way mobs don't summon, you can root rot them. Are you suggesting a duo is going to try Kael Arena?

Please name the "many spots" that you are talking about.

[Toxigen]

well im leaving early today, ill see this thread at 20+ pages on monday

good morning my beautiful elf spergs

[Troxx]

Do have any parsed information? Not trying to pull an evidence-request but just have always understood normal stat buffs do very little for npc dps. Hence why cripple in general is meh outside bored shamans during HoT raids.

I might carry a Frost Giant beard though with my mage and give it a whirl.

Yes and no.

Yes: I have parsed long series of fights with and without str, str/focus stack and just plain old mage buffs on same pet same content. The difference was obvious and proportionally large to the degree of the buff. It won’t make them hit for higher dmg like players but it skews the average hit up fairly stoutly improving dps by widely parseable margins over time.

No: I have no idea which fights those were and where to dig them up. Also no, the difference was so big that I don’t care to repeat them hehe. Take or leave my experience without provision of hard proof. It makes a big difference. I always ask for str (and attack buff str of nature) whenever they are available from whatever source is highest.

Also pro tip: npcs benefit more from ac buffs than players. They have no hard/softcaps. If your pet is tanking, it’s worth grabbing them as they are available.

[Snaggles]

I can bum a str buff and kill Shady a few times to see if I can glean anything. Not gonna put anyone on blast, just interested

[Troxx]

Str buffs are most important on level appropriate content where your pet level is closer to and below the level. On green content/farm content the pet so out-classes what you’re killing you won’t see the same degree of jump.

“Level appropriate” here can even be defined as xp giving green cons in KC with a 60 max summon water pet. The differences in a zone like KC are most pronounced when fighting Warlords/Bodyguards/pit trash. In higher level areas like Kael arena, SG, Seb, and DN the benefits are more universally obvious.

Cheers and happy hunting.

(Ps: shamans can actually test this out easily over time especially at 60 because they can self buff their 55 pet)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do have any parsed information? Not trying to pull an evidence-request but just have always understood normal stat buffs do very little for npc dps. Hence why cripple in general is meh outside bored shamans during HoT raids.

I might carry a Frost Giant beard though with my mage and give it a whirl.

Yes and no.

Yes: I have parsed long series of fights with and without str, str/focus stack and just plain old mage buffs on same pet same content. The difference was obvious and proportionally large to the degree of the buff. It won’t make them hit for higher dmg like players but it skews the average hit up fairly stoutly improving dps by widely parseable margins over time.

No: I have no idea which fights those were and where to dig them up. Also no, the difference was so big that I don’t care to repeat them hehe. Take or leave my experience without provision of hard proof. It makes a big difference. I always ask for str (and attack buff str of nature) whenever they are available from whatever source is highest.

Also pro tip: npcs benefit more from ac buffs than players. They have no hard/softcaps. If your pet is tanking, it’s worth grabbing them as they are available.

Troxx is correct here from my experience as well. STR and AC buffs are great on pets. On harder fights I will usually apply those, unless the mob does a lot of dispel. I don't know what the HP ratio is for STA on pets, but I will put that on too because it's free with my thurg BP. DEX doesn't matter on Shaman pets since they cannot wield procable weapons. I don't really know if AGI does anything on a pet. There's technically no reason not to use it on the off chance it does something, but you could probably skip it if you're worried about time/mana.

Cripple is meh in normal content because the mana cost is too high for what you get in return. Typically putting that 225 mana towards damage will kill the mob faster, which also translates to taking less damage. If cripple only cost like 50 mana, it would probably get used more on normal content. But the spell slot usage is still a problem, especially on a Shaman since we are hurting for spell slots.

[Troxx]

I don't really know if AGI does anything on a pet. There's technically no reason not to use it on the off chance it does something, but you could probably skip it if you're worried about time/mana.

Insofar as agility raises ac I strongly suspect it does help. To what degree I don’t know, it’s probably minimal. Whether it helps with avoidance I honestly have no clue. I don’t have any parses aiming to evaluate the benefit of agility. Defensive parses are inherently a lot more difficult to reliably obtain, gather enough data for, and interpret … so I never bothered to even try.

When I solo with my shaman using pet to tank I load it up with str/focus, agility, and any other ac/hp buffs available along with haste. I also skip dex, no benefit there. A fully buffed shaman pet is a lot more capable than an only-hasted pet that goes well beyond the benefits of the extra 405hp from focus.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Insofar as agility raises ac I strongly suspect it does help. To what degree I don’t know, it’s probably minimal. Whether it helps with avoidance I honestly have no clue. I don’t have any parses aiming to evaluate the benefit of agility. Defensive parses are inherently a lot more difficult to reliably obtain, gather enough data for, and interpret … so I never bothered to even try.

When I solo with my shaman using pet to tank I load it up with str/focus, agility, and any other ac/hp buffs available along with haste. I also skip dex, no benefit there. A fully buffed shaman pet is a lot more capable than an only-hasted pet that goes well beyond the benefits of the extra 405hp from focus.

Agreed! A fully buffed Shaman pet is really nice.

[Troxx]

Also agree that cripple makes a difference. It’s a big difference but as DSM points out … the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze on non-raid target. Mana cost for relative return on trivial xp garbage … it’s a waste. Even on harder xp group targets and named the fights are short enough that mana is best spent elsewhere.

How much damage you do to a mob and it does to you is a dynamic of its level/attack/ac and your level/skills/ac/attack. Anything you can do to alter that dynamic and balance will have real in game results.

As DSM said, if it was like a 50hp a 1 sec cast spell I would cast it on all mobs after slow at any level of content.

[Toxigen]

stuff like gwurms its good

[DeathsSilkyMist]

stuff like gwurms its good

Agreed, GWurms are worth crippling. Anything that is double attacking for 500+ damage per hit is a tough cookie.

[7thGate]

I kind of like this conversation, actually, when its talking about the actual mechanics.

Most of my experience duoing with a shaman has been on Puppet Show. My experience has also been that cripple is fairly high impact, but only worth it on stuff like puppet show because you are fighting a single target for a very long time.

There's a couple techniques I've used there depending on Shaman gear. Safest is to have me tank, shaman logs out/in after debuffing and gently DoTs and we just grind it out. Can do that with a naked Torp Shaman. Slow, but not dangerous. Really well geared Shaman that can tank, torp, spam DoTs while I backstab is just awesome, and I've been pleasantly surprised at the amount that can be added on fights where the DoTs are allowed to tick. There's fights like this one where the shaman pulled 55 DPS with DoTs, melee and pets while we shared tanking.

/GU Tribunal Puppet in 252s, 21793 @86 | Jayya 18185 | Jenekab 2439 | Jallai 1169

They have approx 32K HP, so can back out the shaman contribution that way. Here's an example where I did the same fight with a shaman that didn't DPS at all:

/GU Tribunal Puppet in 471s, 32207 @68 | Jayya 31475 | Riddian 732

One thing I would really like to see parses on at some point is the impact of Avatar on charmed pet DPS, because I suspect its actually a sneaky way a shaman can have a much higher group DPS impact that they would appear on a 2 ench charm pet group since it adds their contribution to other players. I push for Avataring pets on Vindi kills, but I don't have enough samples and didn't track who got what for what fight, and then there's charmed pet breaks and stuff that makes it too hard to compare.

Like, I have Yetarr doing 682 dps vs. Vindi, but he's a big enough pain to get over there and Dictate that I have only a few samples (actually, only 1, which is confusing since I'm almost positive we've used him three times, and I know for sure there should be a low man parse to go with 1 or 2 full raid kills. Maybe I was out of parser range for that one.) He was definitely Avatar'ed, but how much DPS came from that?

I've got Bvellos parses all over the place from 80 (charm breaks + no haste?) to 250 (Avatar, Haste, Torch, no charm breaks, muzzle?) to a ton at the 180 range (normal haste/torch?). But I don't have a break down of when he got Avatar and when he didn't. Are the 205-220ish ones RNG or Avatar pushing things up?

I also really wonder if NPCs STR cap. We had a scout giant with torch+Avatar+Focus+Manicial+SoN+WR+Muzzle kill his enchanter through Rune and Bedlam in 9 seconds once. I wonder if any of that STR did anything. The fight was too chaotic when the drop on Sontalak occurred to tell what actually happened when we used him, but the giant pack whacked him down fast to 90% before the first fear went out and everything fell apart.

[Snaggles]

Str buffs are most important on level appropriate content where your pet level is closer to and below the level. On green content/farm content the pet so out-classes what you’re killing you won’t see the same degree of jump.

“Level appropriate” here can even be defined as xp giving green cons in KC with a 60 max summon water pet. The differences in a zone like KC are most pronounced when fighting Warlords/Bodyguards/pit trash. In higher level areas like Kael arena, SG, Seb, and DN the benefits are more universally obvious.

Cheers and happy hunting.

(Ps: shamans can actually test this out easily over time especially at 60 because they can self buff their 55 pet)

Shady Swashbuckler is a lvl 45 merchant with pretty high AC. Here is just a short run. Two fights each, combined and averaged (one pair of unbuffed, one pair buffed).

Only Celerity: 2 fights @ 834 seconds. 10,766 damage to Shady Swashbuckler (lvl 45 merchant)
Konekn (52 hitting lvl 55 pet) = 12dps. Max hit 36; average hit 20


Maniacal Strength, Focus, & Celerity: 2 fights @ 853 seconds. 10,566 damage to Shady Swashbuckler (lvl 45 merchant)
Konekn (52 hitting lvl 55 pet) = 12dps. Max hit 38; average hit 21

Id parse for longer than that but 31 minutes doing this is watching paint dry...

[7thGate]

Shady Swashbuckler is a lvl 45 merchant with pretty high AC. Here is just a short run. Two fights each, combined and averaged (one pair of unbuffed, one pair buffed).

Only Celerity: 2 fights @ 834 seconds. 10,766 damage to Shady Swashbuckler (lvl 45 merchant)
Konekn (52 hitting lvl 55 pet) = 12dps. Max hit 36; average hit 20


Maniacal Strength, Focus, & Celerity: 2 fights @ 853 seconds. 10,566 damage to Shady Swashbuckler (lvl 45 merchant)
Konekn (52 hitting lvl 55 pet) = 12dps. Max hit 38; average hit 21

Id parse for longer than that but 31 minutes doing this is watching paint dry...

Would you be willing to repeat this with Avatar?

[Snaggles]

Would you be willing to repeat this with Avatar?

I had it loaded but frankly couldn’t do another 16 mins.

Logically nobody will Avatar a summoned pet so perhaps that’s for an enchanter/shaman to figure out. Even asking for SoN and CoTP is a tall ask considering how few rangers tend to be at raids and are hard pressed to get all the melees.

Not saying it shouldn’t be done. Just gonna let someone else do it :)

[Troxx]

How did you never see a max hit in nearly 1700 seconds of fighting?

That’s weird.

And interesting.

I am at run over to Shady on my 60 shaman later tonight if I have the time.

[Snaggles]

He’s got pretty nasty AC. Not like Lucan but there is some weird mojo going on.

It’s possible on normal stuff there would be a better spread. I just didn’t know of a target nearby. Maybe like one of those lvl 50 giants in the Frontier Mountains cave?

[Troxx]

I may run*

God I hate iPhone autocorrect

FM giants should be a good option. They don’t have funky ac or anything else weird that I can remember.

[7thGate]

How did you never see a max hit in nearly 1700 seconds of fighting?

That’s weird.

And interesting.

I am at run over to Shady on my 60 shaman later tonight if I have the time.

I believe that when AC is sufficiently higher than ATK, you start to lose max hits from the damage interval calc. At the maximum case of infinite AC, I believe you approach 1/2 normal max damage as the max possible.

IIRC from reading hte code, its something like you roll ATK vs. opponents's AC, then you do your roll - opponent's roll. Then you multiply by 20 and divide by the average of opponent's AC + ATK. Add 10, divide by 10, clamp between 0.1 and 2.0, and that's your multiplier. Then you do damage bonus.

So if you have AC 100 and ATK 20, the most you could do is roll a 20 while the opponent rolls a 1. You do 20 * 20 = 400 / (Avg 20 and 100) = 400/60 = 6. 6 + 10 = 16/10 = 1.6 is your max multipler, when it would normally be 2.0.

I remember doing analysis when we used Yetarr vs. Avatar of War, and noted he never max hit. He had 540 hits over the fight, but max hit for 379 when he usually hits for 430. Further analysis showed the top 3 damage intervals were missing, he only hit for 17 distinct values instead of 20.

[Jimjam]

I had it loaded but frankly couldn’t do another 16 mins.

Logically nobody will Avatar a summoned pet so perhaps that’s for an enchanter/shaman to figure out. Even asking for SoN and CoTP is a tall ask considering how few rangers tend to be at raids and are hard pressed to get all the melees.

Not saying it shouldn’t be done. Just gonna let someone else do it :)

I love CoTP/SoNing pets :D

[Jimjam]

The shady parse shows a 5% improvement in max hit and average hit. I think looking at things like average hit, max hit and frequency of max hit is more useful than total damage or dps in these situations as it better controls variables of missed rounds due to stun, double/quad attacks rates, miss rates, etc

[Troxx]

I’m still planning on investigating this shady phenomenon. I have a 4 day weekend so ample time. Can hammer after and test those named giants in FM tunnel after for comparison.

[Jimjam]

I’m still planning on investigating this shady phenomenon. I have a 4 day weekend so ample time. Can hammer after and test those named giants in FM tunnel after for comparison.

Yeah, but do consider shady is a mob that gets killed just about never so it isn’t a realistic parse. Ideally parses would be on mobs killed for xp/raid/solo or mobs which perform similarly to those targets. Shady is pretty exceptional.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, but do consider shady is a mob that gets killed just about never so it isn’t a realistic parse. Ideally parses would be on mobs killed for xp/raid/solo or mobs which perform similarly to those targets. Shady is pretty exceptional.

Yeah I wonder if Merchants have other special properties besides not giving experience and not social aggroing. Since they already have some unique properties, they may not be good parse targets if they have some sort of special defense modifier to make them harder to kill. I am just guessing though, I haven't looked through the NPC flags in the EQEMU code.

I’m still planning on investigating this shady phenomenon. I have a 4 day weekend so ample time. Can hammer after and test those named giants in FM tunnel after for comparison.

Those should be good targets. I am interested in seeing the results! Only downside with them is they are often camped.

[Jimjam]

Only downside with them is they are often camped.

Not even really a downside - proves they are an applicable target for testing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not even really a downside - proves they are an applicable target for testing.

That's true! I more just mean that if you don't have a lot of time to play, you won't get a chance to do testing.

[Duik]

Parsing is the worst way to gauge mob toughness. Raw logs only thanks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Parsing is the worst way to gauge mob toughness. Raw logs only thanks.

Yes, please post raw logs so we can double check the parser. It's not difficult to do since you need logging enabled anyway. Logs provide additonal insight since you get more data like what spells you cast, how often you were stunned, number of ripostes, etc.

Things like ripostes will skew the parser's data. Let's say we are testing how much STR affects DPS. If I get 15 ripostes on mob A with 200 STR, and I get 5 ripostes on mob B with 230 STR, that will cause the DPS number on Mob A to more closely resemble the DPS number on mob B. It makes it harder to see how much of a difference STR actually made.

[Troxx]

He was being sarcastic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He was being sarcastic.

I know, but he happens to be correct, which is why his sarcasm didn't work as intended. Please post the raw logs!

[Jimjam]

Yes, please post raw logs so we can double check the parser. It's not difficult to do since you need logging enabled anyway. Logs provide additonal insight since you get more data like what spells you cast, how often you were stunned, number of ripostes, etc.

Things like ripostes will skew the parser's data. Let's say we are testing how much STR affects DPS. If I get 15 ripostes on mob A with 200 STR, and I get 5 ripostes on mob B with 230 STR, that will cause the DPS number on Mob A to more closely resemble the DPS number on mob B. It makes it harder to see how much of a difference STR actually made.

This is why I suggest looking at hits not dps. It controls for random factors like random variance in frequency of hits and focuses in on the thing actually being measured.

[Snaggles]

Yeah, but do consider shady is a mob that gets killed just about never so it isn’t a realistic parse. Ideally parses would be on mobs killed for xp/raid/solo or mobs which perform similarly to those targets. Shady is pretty exceptional.

Yea but he’s always the same level, has like 5k hps, 6 min repop or so, won’t straight up murder you, etc.

It’s a soul crusher but a consistent one; if you can’t handle doing crap DPS just come up with a multiplier. It’s really difficult to control variables when testing raid targets. It’s definitely better than parsing on the little turtle in Iceclad or Bloodmaw when every hit is a winner.