Paladin agro spells post-patch

[Lune]

So I came back after a long break and rolled an SK, noticed disease cloud was doing virtually nothing, learned about the patch, did some research/asked some people and switched to clinging darkness.

I've been playing around with a paladin but I'm still pretty low level... and still trying to decide which class I ultimately want to go with this time around. What are paladins doing for agro at higher levels (group and raid), and how well is it working? I grouped with a rogue in unrest and noticed it took flash of light spam throughout an entire fight to hold agro over a rogue. Does stun work better when I get it? Please tell me they aren't relying on root. My SK was able to do really well with just clinging darkness.

[Snaggles]

It depends on the player and the dps’ gear. If using a GCD reset clickies with Flash of Light in slot 1 you won’t have any issue. I did a 5 person VSR not attacking, with two rogues who waited like 10 seconds and it never flipped. That said, at 55 if the pally or SK doesn’t have great gear and the rogue has the epic it’s a struggle to keep aggro. Especially if the rogue isn’t trying to help.

In short the pally spell set is unnerfed. Disease/poison aggro as I understand will restored at some point. The paladin is a more boring class but has a better spell book for tank work (outside pulling). The SK is a more dynamic class. There is nothing sexy about being able to cast MR, DA, and Hp buffs. Stuns are kind of fun. LoH is less flashy than Harm Touch. These are objectively better though later on. Not having snare is a pain at times but a lot of classes can do this somehow.

[Toxigen]

Just play a warrior and people won't expect you to hold aggro.

[Crede]

So I came back after a long break and rolled an SK, noticed disease cloud was doing virtually nothing, learned about the patch, did some research/asked some people and switched to clinging darkness.

I've been playing around with a paladin but I'm still pretty low level... and still trying to decide which class I ultimately want to go with this time around. What are paladins doing for agro at higher levels (group and raid), and how well is it working? I grouped with a rogue in unrest and noticed it took flash of light spam throughout an entire fight to hold agro over a rogue. Does stun work better when I get it? Please tell me they aren't relying on root. My SK was able to do really well with just clinging darkness.

Get epic for that phat proc, best haste, crown of narandi, and mostly flash with the occasional stun and you'll be good. Would be more fun though I think to just small man stuff where aggro isn't really an issue, or do some fun solo dungeon crawling. Pallies have plenty of tools to get the job done.

I prefer playing my SK for twink builds because I like the chillness of fd if I need to afk at a moment's notice. But can't go wrong with either.

[Snaggles]

Tox with the dunk.

Really at some point dps with aggro problems are a self correcting problem. At least when CH is doing the heavy lifting. On live we gave dps hell if they were taking physical hits. On p99 it seems to be the tank’s problem. All the elite gamer dps who don’t start attacking at 95%…

A paladin in those early levels has the luxury of casting root and standing close. Just gotta assume the rogue isn’t dumb enough to stand closer.

[Troxx]

From my understanding, the nerf really only affected disease and poison counter aggro.

This killed a lot of weapons warriors were using (RIP infestation and some of the VP weapons) and had an impact on the sk spell kit (ie disease cloud spam). I would think clinging darkness remains a good low level spam aggro spell. Costs twice as much mana and casts a wee bit slower.

To my knowledge blind, stuns, snares, and debuffs weren’t affected. I certainly haven’t noticed a difference on my paladin. Primary threat spell remains flash of light but I keep 1-2 stuns on mana bar at all times.

As Snaggles mentioned, how hard it is to hold aggro depends a lot on your weapons and who you’re holding aggro off of. With a rock solid 2hander, I’d wager most paladins can function fine with 1, maybe 2 flashes of light per fight. I typically can get by with just one at the start. With my PoH 1hander and shield - it’s gonna be a few casts per fight potentially.

For raid level content I don’t bother with GCD but cast FoL frequently when it naturally refreshes. At 1.5 sec cast time it’s easy to get a FoL off between melee rounds of a 2hander without missing a beat.

On big raid targets if tanking I would sometimes use

https://wiki.project1999.com/Natures_Defender

Instead of

https://wiki.project1999.com/Great_Spear_of_Dawn

Big dps drop but has 20 more ac and the stun proc helps aggro stay healthy on the longer fights. On those raid fights, my personal dps is more negligible so the focus is just live and hold threat.

Epic is better but I’m lazy. I happen to think ND is one of the most badass looking weapons in the game as well.

I cannot recall ever losing aggro while raid tanking. If a knight wants it, they’re gonna have it.

[Lune]

Thanks, sounds like FoL is scaling better at higher levels at least.

I'm quite familiar with the toolkits of each, just having trouble deciding which I prefer to actually play. Harm touch vs lay hands is lopsided and it frustrates me not being able to clutch save somebody on an SK or heal somebody who is dying. I used to play a monk and adore pulling/splitting with FD, and miss FD+snare and circlet when on my pally. Paladin feels great punking on casters but so does SK, to a lesser extent, with fear. Paladin has higher piercing and lances look badass. Deepwater BP and helm are OP, but circlet is fun. SK has pet DPS but pets can be a bitch to manage well, especially when giving up circlet use while they're alive. Paladins are somewhat useful on raids while SK's are usually a warm body if not pulling, though that utility is predicated on constantly questing soulfires.

However if paladins struggle with agro that makes my decision easier. Sounds like they do not. Think I'm leaning toward SK if for no other reason than the QoL out in the world tips the balance.

[Troxx]

Play them both. They’re both fun classes.

[Vivitron]

So I came back after a long break and rolled an SK, noticed disease cloud was doing virtually nothing, learned about the patch, did some research/asked some people and switched to clinging darkness.

I've been playing around with a paladin but I'm still pretty low level... and still trying to decide which class I ultimately want to go with this time around. What are paladins doing for agro at higher levels (group and raid), and how well is it working? I grouped with a rogue in unrest and noticed it took flash of light spam throughout an entire fight to hold agro over a rogue. Does stun work better when I get it? Please tell me they aren't relying on root. My SK was able to do really well with just clinging darkness.

FoL is twice as much aggro as root/snare/clinging (ignoring the damage portion)/slow/stun. It is great.

What is causing your issue is another change that went in on that patch: aggro for these spells scales with the target's max HP. Bad on these newbie mobs, but not a problem on high level mobs.

[Troxx]

Is FoL stronger now vs raid targets than it was before the patch?

Do we know to what degree it scales with hp and to what high end value?

[Snaggles]

Never had aggro issues before, don’t now.
With a SK I’d just be more inclined to burn mana on vortex and shroud of pain if needed. A good GCD click is worth it’s weight in gold.

[Ripqozko]

aggro isnt an issue, pally can still use same spells, sk just doesnt use disease cloud. They still have shadow vortex, shroud of hate and clinging. SK uses a bit more mana now but neither class has issues holding threat. No one should have issues getting a GCD because ring 9 exists and doesnt take any raiding. Not that im really out here using GCD on my knights.

[Vivitron]

Is FoL stronger now vs raid targets than it was before the patch?

I don't know the pre-patch aggro details as well as post but I think the answer is "technically yes" and "it doesn't matter because you easily out-aggro dps and slows get the same moderately increased aggro, so you probably have to cast at the same rate as before."


Do we know to what degree it scales with hp and to what high end value?

Each high aggro effect scales up to 1200 max (probably scaling at 1 aggro per 15 hp). Since FoL has both blind and atk debuff you get 2400 max. Blinds are (close to?) unique in having two high aggro effects.

[Infectious]

Just root and stand closest to the mob.

[Jimjam]

aggro isnt an issue, pally can still use same spells, sk just doesnt use disease cloud. They still have shadow vortex, shroud of hate and clinging. SK uses a bit more mana now but neither class has issues holding threat. No one should have issues getting a GCD because ring 9 exists and doesnt take any raiding. Not that im really out here using GCD on my knights.

IIRC SK got a lil hit in the unclassic Bladestopper nerf too? IIRC, p1999 removed aggro gained from popping runes/damage absorbs (people were instaspamming Rune IV on raid engages to create a big lead on aggro). Previously, occasionally you may pop a Steelskin/shieldskin on an SK, but now the spell isn't really worth memming unless you're going against a lot of life taps.

[Ripqozko]

IIRC SK got a lil hit in the unclassic Bladestopper nerf too? IIRC, p1999 removed aggro gained from popping runes/damage absorbs (people were instaspamming Rune IV on raid engages to create a big lead on aggro). Previously, occasionally you may pop a Steelskin/shieldskin on an SK, but now the spell isn't really worth memming unless you're going against a lot of life taps.

i guess, i never was out there popping them, someone may have. we just use a bit more mana but threat isnt an issue since DC was so cheap and vortex/clinging/shroud of hate isnt as cheap.

[Troxx]

Steelskin did used to generate mild to moderate aggro (“aoe” aggro for anything you were on the hate list for) but was less than ideal. It’s mana intensive for the purpose of threat and has a 4.5 sec cast time. Costs a jasper but those are pretty cheap.

I carry jaspers on my necro and will make use of it from time to time vs the more expensive rune, but even before rune aggro nerf I probably wouldn’t have bothered with it on a Sk for threat purposes.

It is useful for pre-loading when harm touches are in the equation or on a heavy hitter in group content to help speed bump the dps until the mob is debuffed and slowed.

[Ripqozko]

Steelskin did used to generate mild to moderate aggro (“aoe” aggro for anything you were on the hate list for) but was less than ideal. It’s mana intensive for the purpose of threat and has a 4.5 sec cast time. Costs a jasper but those are pretty cheap.

I carry jaspers on my necro and will make use of it from time to time vs the more expensive rune, but even before rune aggro nerf I probably wouldn’t have bothered with it on a Sk for threat purposes.

It is useful for pre-loading when harm touches are in the equation or on a heavy hitter in group content to help speed bump the dps until the mob is debuffed and slowed.

The only real loss from the rune change was VP pulling, can’t just use a beard for it now. Rest is fluff and didn’t matter.