Warriors are useless in 90% of the games content

[Zuranthium]

Why would I bring a Warrior for DPS?

That wasn't the discussion, it's about who in the tank role is doing more damage and thus contributing to the group killing more.

Monk > Warrior > (Ranger if they are a good enough tank for the content) > Shadowknight > Paladin

But besides just the tank role, groups don't always have the option of forming the exact ideal setup. You just take who is available, so it's a question of which class is better on average. Warriors not only contribute more in the tank role on average, they also can serve as DPS while not tanking for a group. Paladins can't do that very well. 2 Warriors in a group is going to kill far more than 2 Paladins, except in the case of the Paladins being the only healers around.

[Crede]

Genuinely curious where are these parses where wars just blow away knight dps, especially in velious. Tuna sword knights have surpassed rogues in certain fights.

I leveled a war to 60 with KT axe. Not the best weapon but fairly decent at 37/36 with good stats. Honestly never felt like I was doing special dps.

If you really want to play a war, then find a group who will let you zerk while the knight actually tanks.

[Snaggles]

I have nothing against warriors, or any class. In normal content where a group are killing non-raid bosses Paladins and SK's hold up very close to Warriors. In some cases, they may even do more dps. Tanking or not. Mainly because of easy access to 1.0-1.15 or better ratio 2hs and they dont need to use "tanking weapons" to hold aggro.

Warriors can and do more damage than knights but there is always fine print to it. Usually with a non-aggro/good ratio 2h. Or with zerking. Or with offensive discs. Often with higher level raid mosses where the attack difference really shines. It's nice warriors have a few different gears to use depending on what they are doing. Knights mainly trade those performance perks for versatility and aggro.

[Gloomlord]

Let's say we have an awesome composition here: 2 Rogues, 1 Enchanter, 1 Cleric, 1 Monk. I'm heading off to Seb. I have a choice between Warrior or Paladin. Guess which one I'm going to pick?

I contribute to spell interrupts with stuns and bash. I save Enchanters from charm breaks via stun, taunt and being incredibly tanky, and I give them Divine Strength to make this extra safe, and I LoH just in case it goes really south. I ensure my Enchanter and Cleric can spend their mana on things other than root with my snap aggro, whilst I basically never run out of mana. I can also help my Cleric with group heals if mana permits, of which there will be plenty with C2. I make my group more idiot proof and less exhausting.

You're saying I should trade all that for some extra DPS and survivability? Even though I have two Rogues, monk and a charmed pet, am still a brick shithouse, and I have an Enchanter for slows and Cleric for CH.

[Jimjam]

Both war and paladin are useless in that group (:

[Gloomlord]

Elaborate, perhaps? I'm not seeing the uselessness here. This is a group that can take on some seriously nasty stuff.

[Guesty07]

I don't know if yall either don't have a geared 60 warrior or don't play with any, but you are underselling what beats they are in groups

[Gloomlord]

I listed why I'd prefer a Paladin over a Warrior in a group.

It's time to start facing facts: Warrior is an incredibly boring and poorly designed class. I start out as the crappiest class in the entire game, and I need a mountain of platinum and/or a lot of help to even start being worthwhile. I need to rely on a person in my group to actually do my job properly -- that's even with good aggro proc weapons.

And in the end, my only true purpose is to tank raid bosses. Which, whilst important, is incredibly stupid in a game designed around a group doing dungeon crawls together. It was only until Verant was out of the picture that the new developers realised how moronic it was for Warriors to not even have a unique ability to hold aggro.

Warriors suck. End of story. Case closed. I don't like having them in my group because
I don't like having to rely on others, who may be incredibly stupid and lazy, to enable them. Barely any Warriors I've grouped with even ask for a damn root, so they're also partially to blame.

[Guesty07]

State facts then go on to give nothing but opinion.

[Gloomlord]

You just made a statement that people are underselling them, but you didn't even elaborate how. Why? Because you know, deep down, you have no argument.

Amazing gear on a defensive discipline machine masquerading as a proper class. That's all you're basically arguing. I'm not underselling amazing gear by any means.

Why the hell would I want them over a Monk or a knight?

[Videri]

You want your guildmates to have level 60 warriors to tank raid mobs with Defensive so you can loot the items.

You carry them through group content so they can allow you to beat raid content.

[Gloomlord]

In that sense, yes.

In the sense of trying to maximise efficiency, strength and safety for a small group that may be a PuG? No.

So, that just proves Ya.dingus right: Warriors are a charity case outside of raids.

[Snaggles]

Group content isn’t hard. On blue often there are only like 350 players online. Yet we frequently propose the scenario where two tanks want to join our group at the exact same moment? Lol.

Here is a tip: Fill your stupid groups quickly and get grinding. Pick competent people who aren’t annoying. Also, if anyone is afraid to invite a warrior into the group it probably says more about their own ability or those around them. Bring a charged cap if you join that group or better yet, just solo.

[Gloomlord]

Nobody said they can't or won't invite a warrior.

They're/I'm just saying it's not the most optimal. That may not matter to you much, but it is at least a slight factor to consider.

Notice how, in my hypothetical scenario, I said if it was my personal choice if I had both a Warrior and Paladin to play with, in close to equal gear, I would pick a Paladin? They just bring more to the table.

If you know a very well geared and smart Warrior who is willing to be the tank, and if you're willing to make up for their shortcomings, go ahead and pick them.

[Botten]

In that sense, yes.

In the sense of trying to maximise efficiency, strength and safety for a small group that may be a PuG? No.

So, that just proves Ya.dingus right: Warriors are a charity case outside of raids.

Not at all and picking and choosing the post to respond to given the numerous posts saying otherwise is just pushing off the valid statements that warriors are still best.

[Gloomlord]

You apologists are completely impermeable to reason.

DSM can't admit Shaman has worse DPS than a Magician, and you can't admit Warriors are not "the best" in small group content.

[Toxigen]

I duo'd with a shaman mostly on my war and zerked the whole way to 60. Eashen 2 hander absolutely insane dps can confirm. No way would a knight keep up with that.

[Snaggles]

I’m glad it’s taken 27 pages to conclude a knight might be optimal at tanking casual content. It’s basically the crux of the first post of this stupid thread. No, in normal situations warriors don’t do substantially more dps than knights. No, epics won’t fix all a warriors aggro problems with 30 second fights.

If a warrior needs to believe they are the best tank for all situations they are sorely mistaken but likely won’t accept the fact.

If a knight feels warriors have no place with group content because someone else might occasionally get hit. Same thing.

If you are in seb and not wearing kunark gear it shouldn’t be challenging. Just fill the “tank” roll with anyone and move on.

[Snaggles]

I duo'd with a shaman mostly on my war and zerked the whole way to 60. Eashen 2 hander absolutely insane dps can confirm. No way would a knight keep up with that.

No kidding. A few asterisks to that though.

Frankly, managing zerk health is probably more annoying than doing less dps. That and the warrior losing their mind every time they get a huge crip would be tiring.

[Toxigen]

No kidding. A few asterisks to that though.

Frankly, managing zerk health is probably more annoying than doing less dps. That and the warrior losing their mind every time they get a huge crip would be tiring.

idk my shaman bud seemed to enjoy it...those 1k+ crips were spicy

joining 5-6 man pugs is for the birds anyway...turns to shit XP because of bloat and laziness...only exception was when the Hole first received that massive ZEM boost...all the sweaties came out for that

[Botten]

I’m glad it’s taken 27 pages to conclude a knight might be optimal at tanking casual content. It’s basically the crux of the first post of this stupid thread. No, in normal situations warriors don’t do substantially more dps than knights. No, epics won’t fix all a warriors aggro problems with 30 second fights.

If a warrior needs to believe they are the best tank for all situations they are sorely mistaken but likely won’t accept the fact.

If a knight feels warriors have no place with group content because someone else might occasionally get hit. Same thing.

If you are in seb and not wearing kunark gear it shouldn’t be challenging. Just fill the “tank” roll with anyone and move on.

So there you have it Group EXP equals easy.

Knights get over monks better damage and mitigation.

Best group exp tank (cuz it is easy) is Ranger with best aggro tools, Damage, utility and awareness when Named pops.

What don't like Ranger mitigation and HP pool, meh, should have gotten a warrior. After all warriors have better damage than knights.

In conclusion, poor knight classes.

[Guesty07]

Knights are a great low man group tank. My issue is when people say things like warriors are rubbish in groups. It's completely made up bullshit. You either don't group with them enough or you already have a bias against them. Warriors shred and ate tough as nails.

[Zuranthium]

Genuinely curious where are these parses where wars just blow away knight dps, especially in velious.

I leveled a war to 60 with KT axe. Not the best weapon but fairly decent at 37/36 with good stats. Honestly never felt like I was doing special dps.

If you really want to play a war, then find a group who will let you zerk while the knight actually tanks.

Warrior should be trying to stay berserk in most situations where they aren't depending on Complete Heal; it's viable while tanking for plenty of group content. Warrior can dual wield, knights can not (you were playing Warrior sub-optimally). Warrior has higher offensive skillcaps and also triple attack at 60. Warrior gets precision/aggressive discipline (and precision disc on p99 is bugged to give 100% hit rate). Add up all those things and it's a big difference, a huge one when considering a Warrior using disc.

Let's say we have an awesome composition here: 2 Rogues, 1 Enchanter, 1 Cleric, 1 Monk. I'm heading off to Seb. I have a choice between Warrior or Paladin. Guess which one I'm going to pick?

I'm taking the Warrior pre-Velious for a Sebilis exp group. Paladin stats are poopy at that point and they cause the group an exp penalty on top of it (technically in Velious era a Warrior still provides the group a better exp modifier, but it's very minor at that point).

Velious era, for a group like that, it generally won't matter between the Warrior or Paladin. Having the Paladin will allow the Cleric to be lazier but that's not a strictly better thing. If planning to break a hard area of the zone, Warrior popping defensive disc can be nice.

epics won’t fix all a warriors aggro problems with 30 second fights.

Warriors don't have an "aggro problem" unless you're with a group of bad players, or trying to fight content where your casters are too low level for root to land consistently.

[Jimjam]

Well the OP is cross talking themself, and gloomy continues that troll.

The premise is warriors are useless in 90% of content but the argument made to support that other classes do better than them 90% of the time.

The assumption underlying the argument that being “competent but not best” is equivalent to “useless” is inherently faulty, which is why this thread drags on.

I must confess to being guilty at fishing for exciting big crips.

[Philistine]

I agree that "not optimal" does not equal useless. I love warriors, but others don't have to!

How great is this game that the classes are different enough that we can have these* discussions/arguments instead of tanks all being clones of each other? Love it.

[Toxigen]

Let's say we have an awesome composition here: 2 Rogues, 1 Enchanter, 1 Cleric, 1 Monk. I'm heading off to Seb. I have a choice between Warrior or Paladin. Guess which one I'm going to pick?


Drop the 2 rogues unless you're going to CE and forget about the tank.

Enc / Cleric / Monk is all you need for literally every camp in Seb except Emperor + Crypt which these days some idiot will probably try to lawyerquest you off crypt even if you're holding all the spawns down throughout CE.

[7thGate]

Managing aggro is not difficult at all, the casters just need to root the MOBs and also blind if needed for summoning level MOBs.

I don't think blind works like this. I've been trying to figure out if there are any possible raid uses for Blinding Poison III for a long time now, and one of the mechanics tests I tried was to see if I could do controlled tank swaps without having high aggro on a permarooted mob while ranged characters DPS and having the blind keep them from summoning. The end result was the caster got summoned even though the tank was in melee. Maybe its different if the target is actually rooted and blind or unrooted and blind, but I doubt it.

This threw a wrench in plans I had to try and do a 25 puppet PBAOE puppet show in Plane of Mischief by having a shaman solo Geb for a day, then getting ~10 wizards and some Melees with bump disc and PBAOE out each puppet stack for throne farming. But the only 25 target AOE blind lasts 1 tick, so can't be made permanent even with a chain, and blind doesn't seem to block summon anyway, so that dream died :(.

[Jimjam]

Drop the 2 rogues unless you're going to CE and forget about the tank.

Enc / Cleric / Monk is all you need for literally every camp in Seb except Emperor + Crypt which these days some idiot will probably try to lawyerquest you off crypt even if you're holding all the spawns down throughout CE.

See! Testimony that both the Paladin and Warrior are useless in the given example!

[Snaggles]

If you are dealing with mobs that summon root and blind are only going to last so long.
I have a 60 pally and love the class. I’ve tanked most the content one would expect outside slowed non-Lord/Lady dragons in ToV. Warriors are really cool, full stop.

Monks actually take hits really well; per hit better than knights. Without aggro spells or even a taunt skill you just have to rely on dps to peel or hope someone will root stuff. That and like rangers the average ones aren’t HP optimized like tanks that gear for that.

Monk: 252 Defense, 230 Dodge, 225 Block, 225 Riposte
Pal: 252 Defense, 155 Dodge, 205 Parry, 200 Riposte

I’d agree with most here. I don’t like “____ class sucks” threads. There is fair critique for all the classes but these aren’t detail oriented. In the end just slow stuff, root stuff, let the tank take hits. Keep the yellow bar ticking away.

[Ripqozko]

Warrior should be trying to stay berserk in most situations where they aren't depending on Complete Heal; it's viable while tanking for plenty of group content. Warrior can dual wield, knights can not (you were playing Warrior sub-optimally). Warrior has higher offensive skillcaps and also triple attack at 60. Warrior gets precision/aggressive discipline (and precision disc on p99 is bugged to give 100% hit rate). Add up all those things and it's a big difference, a huge one when considering a Warrior using disc.



I'm taking the Warrior pre-Velious for a Sebilis exp group. Paladin stats are poopy at that point and they cause the group an exp penalty on top of it (technically in Velious era a Warrior still provides the group a better exp modifier, but it's very minor at that point).

Velious era, for a group like that, it generally won't matter between the Warrior or Paladin. Having the Paladin will allow the Cleric to be lazier but that's not a strictly better thing. If planning to break a hard area of the zone, Warrior popping defensive disc can be nice.



Warriors don't have an "aggro problem" unless you're with a group of bad players, or trying to fight content where your casters are too low level for root to land consistently.

Just one thing, even war are better off with 2h for dps now . Which knights would also use. If ya dpsing you shouldn’t be dual wielding it’s worse dps.

[Toxigen]

Just one thing, even war are better off with 2h for dps now . Which knights would also use. If ya dpsing you shouldn’t be dual wielding it’s worse dps.

funny the guy saying people who dont weapon swap are shitters is the same guy saying wars use 1 handers in xp groups lol

[Vivitron]

I don't think blind works like this. I've been trying to figure out if there are any possible raid uses for Blinding Poison III for a long time now, and one of the mechanics tests I tried was to see if I could do controlled tank swaps without having high aggro on a permarooted mob while ranged characters DPS and having the blind keep them from summoning. The end result was the caster got summoned even though the tank was in melee. Maybe its different if the target is actually rooted and blind or unrooted and blind, but I doubt it.

This threw a wrench in plans I had to try and do a 25 puppet PBAOE puppet show in Plane of Mischief by having a shaman solo Geb for a day, then getting ~10 wizards and some Melees with bump disc and PBAOE out each puppet stack for throne farming. But the only 25 target AOE blind lasts 1 tick, so can't be made permanent even with a chain, and blind doesn't seem to block summon anyway, so that dream died :(.

Untanked blind mobs (including rooted; I specifically tested this on puppets) have a summon range that is longer than their melee range but still short. Probably 30-50 units. I think the summon range is still long enough to make your dream impossible, but you can blind kill a puppet using targeted damage from a further range. I believe I have seen this work on tanked mobs too: I recommend redoing your test with the caster near max casting range. But as far as tank swaps go I don't know of an intersection between {want to tank swap} / {can land blind or blinding poison 3} / {don't need the boss to summon the tank throughout the fight}.

My blind mechanic dream was to use blind kiting for solo challenges on my bard. I used my bio orb to solo ww dragons up to and including Ayillish (Ayillish is still hard due to resists and a loooong kill time, I did use 3 clicks of a wort), and a4 Grink/Gronk, so I consider it a great success.

[Naethyn]

You can blind flurry drakes in ntov so they run away from the raid and kill everyone. Tested this with bio orb.

[enjchanter]

I tried the weapon swapping thing today on my warrior with guadralek and Kragg club (just highest dmg thing I have) and I felt like an idiot because warriors are so fucking bad

[Gloomlord]

Well the OP is cross talking themself, and gloomy continues that troll.

Yep. I'm a troll alright. :rolleyes:

[Troxx]

I have a level 60 paladin and 60 warrior. Paladin has NToV Greatspear of Dawn. Warrior has inferior ratio Dain axe.

In defense of the warrior:
-Never really had aggro problems on my warrior. Blips here and there? Yeah it goes with the territory but with 2h white dog aggro being what it is and a stun/dd proc … it’s trivial
-Never did a group with my paladin that wouldn’t have been trivial with my warrior.
-I have done some harder group content with my warrior that was snooze-fest easy but my paladin would have had a tougher time (that disc is godly). These types of scenarios are very uncommon though. They are the exception not the norm.
-Warrior dps is much higher … even factoring massive difference in weapon ratio my two toons have
-warrior takes less damage without disc and there is literally no comparison for the 3 of 7 minutes they evasive is up.

Objectively, Paladin does get the job done better most of the time … at least I know that aggro is 100% always on me. Utility is stellar to boot.

But those implying warriors are “useless in 90% of game content” fall into one of the following buckets

-has never actually owned/leveled/played a well geared warrior
-has never actually played WITH a well geared warrior
-suck at everquest
-is retarded

EverQuest is a really simple game.

[Gloomlord]

Clearly, Warriors are not "useless". However, they only fulfill the niche of enabling raids to happen. In small group content, they are less optimal than a knight and Monk in the tanking department. They also suck at soloing, which is another big con.

EverQuest is indeed a really simple game. So, I don't know why we can't just agree that Warrior is a poorly designed class.

[Troxx]

Yeah no, that is simply not the case. Warriors are fine in small group content.

Less optimal than monk? I’ve got one of those at 60 too. A monk in the modern era (even raid geared) wanting to tank and looking for maximum threat is rocking a 29/30 TStaff with a stun proc unless they are relying solely on white damage. I’m using a 42/43 with a stun proc … but also do have a taint button for what it’s worth. I probably am going to have higher dexterity than a comparably geared monk because of race, starting points invested, and intentionally seeking out dexterity on gear. Beyond that, massive hp advantage and disc use.

Maybe it’s because I’m the weirdo who put all available starting points into dexterity and intentionally sought out dex gear … but I can honestly tell you I have never had threat generation frustrations playing p99.

[Ripqozko]

I dont believe any of yall until DSM reads through 3 hours of logs. I dont want any parses i need pure logs.

[Troxx]

:p

[Gloomlord]

"Fine"? Yes. Optimal? No.

It's fine to bring a Wizard, too, in small group content. They are, however, an incredibly shitty DPS class that only brings evac and mobility to the table.

Unless you're going to tell me now that Warrior isn't as bad as Wizard for small group content. That would be the truth, but that does mean there is a difference between "fine" and "optimal".

[7thGate]

You can blind flurry drakes in ntov so they run away from the raid and kill everyone. Tested this with bio orb.

Yeah, blinding a flurry is actually the only real raid contribution I've ever made with Blinding Poison III. I stopped a wipe with it once after the CH chain screwed up and it finished eating all the warriors. Nimbled and landed poison, and it wandered off while everyone had a chance to cycle camp.

I got it to land on Dain too, about a 15% success rate, but I don't know if there's any way to actually make that useful. If stalling wasn't a thing it could be used to put him on pause for recovery/med breaks, but I think raid rules kind of block that most of the time.

I did test Karkona didn't summon while blind and untanked, that's interesting about puppets and the range. I might try to test that out a bit more in the future and see if I can get a better understanding on how this works with permarooted mobs, exactly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I dont believe any of yall until DSM reads through 3 hours of logs. I dont want any parses i need pure logs.

You don't manually read through logs silly. You use basic programming and search tools to parse it yourself. That's what I do. When you have the logs you can separate the data much better, and double check the work. You also get more context as to what happened during the fight. You can see what spells are cast, if you were interrupted with a stun, if you turned off auto attack, etc.

Gameparse isn't going to remove ripostes from a parse, for example. This means your DPS parses are going to be skewed if you are testing something like how much STR affects your DPS. Also, if any bugs exist in Gameparse, you wouldn't know.

Here is a very simple example that you can code yourself and run in browser using https://playcode.io/javascript (Check the console result):


var array =
[
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"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:17 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 62",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:19 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 26",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:19 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 16",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:19 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 73",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:22 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 31",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:22 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 88",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:23 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 78",
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"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:29 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 54",
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"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:32 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 70",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:34 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 54",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:34 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 78",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:36 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 40",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:36 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 41",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:37 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 96",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:37 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 70",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:38 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 22",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:40 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 26",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:41 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 41",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:41 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 59",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:42 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 62",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:42 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 41",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:43 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 14",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:43 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 61",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:43 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 25",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:44 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 14",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:45 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 41",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:45 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 64",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:45 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 20",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:46 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 21",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:46 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 41",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:46 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 8",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:47 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 37",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:48 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 9",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:48 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 5",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:48 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 20",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:49 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 28",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:50 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 74",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:50 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 11",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:51 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 55",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:51 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 65",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:55 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 77",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:55 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 49",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:56 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 64",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:56 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 5",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:59 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 20",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:59 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 29",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:33:00 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 41",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:33:00 2022] Wickedsteal pierces froglok bok wizard for 23",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:12 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 55",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:12 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 39",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:13 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 18",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:16 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 66",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:16 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 68",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:17 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 54",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:17 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 28",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:20 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 42",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:20 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 6",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:21 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 32",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:23 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 30",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:23 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 67",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:27 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 9",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:29 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 83",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:29 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 62",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:30 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 48",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:33 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 12",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:38 2022] Wickedsteal crushes froglok bok wizard for 36",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:25 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 194",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:31 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 180",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:43 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 369",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:43 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 194",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:49 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 299",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:49 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 194",
"[Sun Aug 21 07:32:55 2022] Wickedsteal backstabs froglok bok wizard for 478",
];

var result = 0;
for(var i = 0; i < array.length; i++)
{
var last3 = array[i].slice(-3).replace(/\D/g,'');
result += parseInt(last3, 10);
}

console.log(result);


I use Notepad++ to search through the document to find the results that you plug into the array. Doesn't take long at all.

[Troxx]

Warriors are more than fine.

Discussion here relates to mob/mobs are in camp and you have an option for a tank. When you factor in all of the "other" .. Paladins have a huge toolkit with a ton of useful spells.

If your group needs a tank .. given a choice between me playing my 60 Paladin, Monk (TStaff) or Warrior (Frostreaver) for group as a tank you'll get a choice between:


Threat:
-all 3 are going to hold aggro without problems, group isn't going to suffer.
-Paladin, unlike warrior/monk, will have 100% snap aggro from the start and throughout every fight.
-My warrior will hold aggro a bit better than my monk due to higher dexterity
-Warrior solidifies the advantage over the monk with taunt snap-back as needed

Winner: Paladin >> warrior > monk

Baseline "Tankiness"
-Paladin will take the most damage out of the 3
-Monk has the lowest hp pool but will take less damage than the Paladin.
-Warrior will take the least damage at baseline
-Warrior has significantly more hp than the other 2

Winner: Warrior >> Paladin (more hp) = Monk (more avoidance)

DPS:
-My paladin isn't a slacker here. 53/46 ratio Spear. Still will be doing the least damage of the 3
-Warrior and monk are really close. You'd have to do a long string of parses over an extended duration to reliably see a difference between the 2. Warrior's weapon ratio is a tiny bit better but 30 delay is the "sweet spot" for capitalizing on dmg bonus. Monk 2hb caps 252 Warrior 2hs 250. Same offense skill caps. Same Riposte skill cap. Both have triple attack main hand at 60. Warrior can critical hit and while tanking will have higher damage ripostes. My experience playing both is that the warrior puts out more damage while tanking by a small margin.

Winner: Warrior = Monk >> Paladin

Extras that each class has available while tanking:
-Paladin: can self heal pretty well - not to be discounted. Stuns can help defer some of the damage intake and the utility.
-Monk: Stonestance is a brief discipline (12 sec) but 60% dmg reduction on a fairly brief reuse timer. Quite useful in a pinch. Oh ... and mend. It's good stuff.
-Warrior: kicks 55+ (or slam if large race) interrupt casters. Evasive up-time 3 minutes out of every 7 puts them in a tanky-tier all their own.

Winner: Warrior (evasive/kick_interrupts) > paladin (on-demand self heals and stun) > monk (stonestance/mend)

Special Caveat: small grouping certain areas that require FD ... monk is really your only choice.

All 3 options will work. Most will prefer the Paladin because we're spoiled and love not having to think twice about aggro. For the dedicated role of tank where nothing else is expected other than tanking? Warrior properly geared will perform better than monk.

TLDR: Everquest is easy. P99 is Everquest. All 3 choices are 99% interchangeable 99% of the time if appropriately geared. The game ain't hard.

[Gloomlord]

Let's not forget that Paladin is the perfect Enchanter/Necromancer bodyguard for charms. That's a pretty significant positive for them in a group. Can't tell you how many times I've saved the Enchanter's life and saved so much time from a potential death.

If we look at it only from the perspective of only DPS and Durability, then obviously Warrior wins. The utility that Paladin (And perhaps even Shadow Knight) brings is a big plus that, in my opinion, overrides that.

[Vivitron]

Yeah, blinding a flurry is actually the only real raid contribution I've ever made with Blinding Poison III. I stopped a wipe with it once after the CH chain screwed up and it finished eating all the warriors. Nimbled and landed poison, and it wandered off while everyone had a chance to cycle camp.


That's a great save. l wonder how many people noticed that blind-fleeing mobs do not get assisted. I've moved mobs around in kael with my bio orb just to see it work. Congratulations on finding a solid use for for that mechanic, I haven't found a way to benefit from it yet.

A monk in the modern era (even raid geared) wanting to tank and looking for maximum threat is rocking a 29/30 TStaff with a stun proc unless they are relying solely on white damage.

Surely the Fist of Nature with one of the other beefy options in the offhand comes out way ahead of the TStaff, and is probably top monk aggro? 15/18 with a higher aggro proc than the Frostreaver or tstaff (stun and root are equal aggro on this patch). Its price is in a whole other league, though.

-Warrior and monk are really close. You'd have to do a long string of parses over an extended duration to reliably see a difference between the 2. Warrior's weapon ratio is a tiny bit better but 30 delay is the "sweet spot" for capitalizing on dmg bonus. Monk 2hb caps 252 Warrior 2hs 250. Same offense skill caps. Same Riposte skill cap. Both have triple attack main hand at 60. Warrior can critical hit and while tanking will have higher damage ripostes. My experience playing both is that the warrior puts out more damage while tanking by a small margin.

Winner: Warrior = Monk >> Paladin

I think you're referring to parsing yourself, not doubting your parse but you mentioned mechanisms too. Monks are on a unique* damage table, so they get some bonus damage not reflected in the skill caps.

*Someone should check whether rogues are on this damage table in error, if they want to make monks even more relatively overpowered compared to everyone else.

[Jimjam]

Monk (more avoidance)

This may seem insane but I’ve found avoidance to be quite a situational benefit. As you say P99 is easy. Often groups have an excess of heal. Often it is better to have worse avoidance so you take more hits and do substantially more damage through DS. This is why I often prefer ranger to even warrior.

Despite their reputation they actually mitigate reasonably on most content - it is their avoidance that lets them down. This isn’t really that big a problem - as previously stated most groups have an excess of heals (and the ranger itself may add like 23/tick through fungi, chloro and skin like nature) - so all it means is the ranger gets to land more hits with damage shields than other tanks (and handily the ranger has plenty of baked in DS).

Obviously there are higher end circumstances where their lesser tankiness does become problematic, but 100% unironic post, I promise.

[Jimjam]

Gameparse isn't going to remove ripostes from a parse, for example. This means your DPS parses are going to be skewed if you are testing something like how much STR affects your DPS.

When investigating the impact of strength on damage looking at damage per hit removes more variables than looking at dps, especially as Dps can be extrapolated as a factor on damage per hit.

Looking at damage per hit you don’t need to worry about variance in hit rate, parries, blocks, dodges, ripostes, etc. As such ripostes actually just give extra data points rather than taint the data.

[Troxx]

Let's not forget that Paladin is the perfect Enchanter/Necromancer bodyguard for charms. That's a pretty significant positive for them in a group. Can't tell you how many times I've saved the Enchanter's life and saved so much time from a potential death.

If we look at it only from the perspective of only DPS and Durability, then obviously Warrior wins. The utility that Paladin (And perhaps even Shadow Knight) brings is a big plus that, in my opinion, overrides that.

No doubt man. Paladins are amazing and are, in my opinion, the actual ideal and "perfect" group tank. I'm not gonna dispute that.

My only beef is with the sentiment that they "only fulfill the niche of enabling raids to happen. In small group content, they are less optimal than a knight and Monk in the tanking department.".

I honestly feel warriors are just fine. They aren't weak, broken, or worthless. They sacrifice that absolute reliability for un-matched durability and are an core necessity for raid progression in content-appropriate gear. On p99, if they had the kind of on-demand snap aggro they got in later expansions they would be flatly overpowered. No point in playing a knight at all. For many expansions they were so far ahead of knights it wasn't even funny. Thankfully knights got mini-defensive disciplines of their own later on down the line which helped to restore some balance.

Surely the Fist of Nature with one of the other beefy options in the offhand comes out way ahead of the TStaff, and is probably top monk aggro? 15/18 with a higher aggro proc than the Frostreaver or tstaff (stun and root are equal aggro on this patch). Its price is in a whole other league, though

Is root aggro really the same as stun? I don't think it is but admittedly I could be mistaken. It should be 160 threat from the DD component with the side benefit of granting aggro after proc to whomever is standing closest ... if it lands. It's a 3 minute duration but can break early by chance or whenever the enemy is nuked. If it doesn't land ... no root perk. If you are correct and root generates the same flat 400 threat that stun does ... well FON would be a massive aggro hog indeed.

From a DPS standpoint, the *new damage bonus tables along with the dynamic of monks triple attacking with their main hand weapon should work out such that TStaff should be comparable to the best raid monk dual wield setups out there .. including fist of nature. Perhaps a raid geared monk could weigh in? I'd parse it but I don't have the weapons. BotB monk DPS at the raid level are gonna be the ToV 2handers, but none of them have a threat proc.

TStaff should be the best monk aggro weapon setup in the game ... excluding 2 scepters of destruction. Any super experienced monk who knows better ... please feel free to correct me.

I think you're referring to parsing yourself, not doubting your parse but you mentioned mechanisms too. Monks are on a unique* damage table, so they get some bonus damage not reflected in the skill caps.

*Someone should check whether rogues are on this damage table in error, if they want to make monks even more relatively overpowered compared to everyone else

All I know is that my warrior swinging a 42/43 Frostreaver (stun + dd proc) puts out near-indentical aggro to my Monk swinging 29/30 (stun + dd proc) if both of them buff dex to 255. As my warrior has a higher unbuffed dex, with anything short of focus/dex stack or avatar - the warrior's baseline threat is higher. From a DPS standpoint, the warrior wins by a pinch. Warrior having higher impact ripostes and critical hits wins out over slightly higher skill cap, that sweet-spot delay of 30, +/- any unique damage tables that are at play.

This may seem insane but I’ve found avoidance to be quite a situational benefit. As you say P99 is easy. Often groups have an excess of heal. Often it is better to have worse avoidance so you take more hits and do substantially more damage through DS. This is why I often prefer ranger to even warrior.

Despite their reputation they actually mitigate reasonably on most content - it is their avoidance that lets them down. This isn’t really that big a problem - as previously stated most groups have an excess of heals (and the ranger itself may add like 23/tick through fungi, chloro and skin like nature) - so all it means is the ranger gets to land more hits with damage shields than other tanks (and handily the ranger has plenty of baked in DS).

Obviously there are higher end circumstances where their lesser tankiness does become problematic, but 100% unironic post, I promise.

My ranger is 52 now. Maybe things will get better as I push closer to 60 but from 46 on I feel a whole heck of a lot more squishy than I ever did solo leveling my warrior and paladin through those ranges. It is also possible that my anecdotal experiences of squishiness are due to the lower hp pool ... each hit taking a larger percentage of my health etc etc.

Regardless, I have healed many a group with ranger tanks. They get the job done admirably unless low-ish level for the content or poorly geared.

When investigating the impact of strength on damage looking at damage per hit removes more variables than looking at dps, especially as Dps can be extrapolated as a factor on damage per hit.

Looking at damage per hit you don’t need to worry about variance in hit rate, parries, blocks, dodges, ripostes, etc. As such ripostes actually just give extra data points rather than taint the data.

Bingo. Higher or lower strength will not affect how often you riposte. A riposte is simply an extra potential swing at standard damage tables. If the only different variable is strength, ripostes don't matter from one parse set (Gamparse set) to the other from a comparison standpoint. Assuming you have sufficiently long parses or a robust enough compilation of individual fights ... riposte rates will average out over time.

[Vivitron]

Is root aggro really the same as stun? I don't think it is but admittedly I could be mistaken. It should be 160 threat from the DD component with the side benefit of granting aggro after proc to whomever is standing closest ... if it lands.

Root definitely is the same aggro as stun. I don't think it was before the recent aggro patch.

Spells don't need to land to give full aggro either, and didn't take hold / mob is immune to changes in runspeed still give full aggro too.

From a DPS standpoint, the *new damage bonus tables along with the dynamic of monks triple attacking with their main hand weapon should work out such that TStaff should be comparable to the best raid monk dual wield setups out there .. including fist of nature. Perhaps a raid geared monk could weigh in? I'd parse it but I don't have the weapons.

I would also like to hear a monk who parsed it weigh in. My bet is FoN+Gharns dps is below an Abashi's but comfortably above a Tstaff.

[Ripqozko]

Root definitely is the same aggro as stun. I don't think it was before the recent aggro patch.

Spells don't need to land to give full aggro either, and didn't take hold / mob is immune to changes in runspeed still give full aggro too.



I would also like to hear a monk who parsed it weigh in. My bet is FoN+Gharns dps is below an Abashi's but comfortably above a Tstaff.

thats correct except bo staff is really right there too for cheap asf dkp.

[Arvan]

op revealing he's bad ;)

[7thGate]

Is root aggro really the same as stun? I don't think it is but admittedly I could be mistaken. It should be 160 threat from the DD component with the side benefit of granting aggro after proc to whomever is standing closest ... if it lands. It's a 3 minute duration but can break early by chance or whenever the enemy is nuked. If it doesn't land ... no root perk. If you are correct and root generates the same flat 400 threat that stun does ... well FON would be a massive aggro hog indeed.

From a DPS standpoint, the *new damage bonus tables along with the dynamic of monks triple attacking with their main hand weapon should work out such that TStaff should be comparable to the best raid monk dual wield setups out there .. including fist of nature. Perhaps a raid geared monk could weigh in? I'd parse it but I don't have the weapons. BotB monk DPS at the raid level are gonna be the ToV 2handers, but none of them have a threat proc.


I've done a decent amount of puppet show with Teslacoil, who has a FoN/Fist of Lightning setup. I can confirm that he has no problems holding aggro from me running a Tunare daggger/epic setup. Not sure how that would compare to TStaff though.

I know a few monks that are definitely using Facesmasher/Abashi's/Shovel, I might be able to find some parses that have both of them on it for comparison. I'm not sure he's always running FoN on raid targets though due to aggro problems.

[Troxx]

If root aggro is truly the same as stubble then by far best tradable warrior threat setup is

https://wiki.project1999.com/Herbalist%27s_Spade

[Jimjam]

But then you need to do an archaeology/gardener/gravedigger theme toon which really limits the most thematic deity selections…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bingo. Higher or lower strength will not affect how often you riposte. A riposte is simply an extra potential swing at standard damage tables. If the only different variable is strength, ripostes don't matter from one parse set (Gamparse set) to the other from a comparison standpoint. Assuming you have sufficiently long parses or a robust enough compilation of individual fights ... riposte rates will average out over time.

You are correct that STR doesn't affect riposte rate. That isn't my point, nor did I make that claim. If you have 15 ripostes in fight A with 200 STR, and 5 ripostes in fight B with 230 STR, your DPS has been skewed on the fight with 200 STR, because you got more hits in Fight A than fight B. That is why it is important to screen out variables like ripostes when looking at DPS specifically. You also want to check if the mob dodged/parried/riposted more in one fight than the other, because that also affects DPS. You are incorrect that things like ripostes do not affect parse sets. This is especially true when we have seen STR generally doesn't provide an extremely large bonus to DPS. When the difference is only a few DPS, that can easily be skewed by other factors like riposte.

I have had long parses where there were significantly more ripostes in one data set as opposed to the other. Eventually everything evens out over a long enough time, but that doesn't mean it will even out in the data sets you have.

When investigating the impact of strength on damage looking at damage per hit removes more variables than looking at dps, especially as Dps can be extrapolated as a factor on damage per hit.

Looking at damage per hit you don’t need to worry about variance in hit rate, parries, blocks, dodges, ripostes, etc. As such ripostes actually just give extra data points rather than taint the data.

If you want to do this you need the logs instead of a DPS parse. That is why I ask for logs instead of parses. You can use the data from logs in multiple ways.

[Jimjam]

Dps parsers can also draw distribution charts of hit amounts, calculate average hits and all sorts of other wonderful things as well as simply parse dps. While your home grown solutions are cool and doubtlessly appropriately effective, you're really missing out by not trying out gamparse. Maybe run it on a VM if you are too worried about malware?

[Zuranthium]

Just one thing, even war are better off with 2h for dps now . Which knights would also use. If ya dpsing you shouldn’t be dual wielding it’s worse dps.

You're misunderstanding; when I said dual wield, I mean swapping to an offhand weapon inbetween 2-hander swings. Paladins lose a lot of DPS compared to an ideally played Warrior/Ranger/Monk because of not having dual wield (plus all the other reasons).

Paladins between some attack swings should swap to shield to get bashes in, but it's such a tiny DPS addition, really not even an "addition", just the baseline of getting to use their attack skill that most other melee always get to use.

Shadowknights are the most easymode, they never need to swap (when playing one of the slam races). Their additional pet DPS makes me prefer them over Paladins on average. Incidentally, in 1999 SK's were the best melee DPS, aside from certain raid situations, because of the pet attacking much faster when given low delay weapons.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dps parsers can also draw distribution charts of hit amounts, calculate average hits and all sorts of other wonderful things as well as simply parse dps. While your home grown solutions are cool and doubtlessly appropriately effective, you're really missing out by not trying out gamparse. Maybe run it on a VM if you are too worried about malware?

It's not about malware. I simply know that programs have bugs in them (especially freeware), and I don't really care enough to vet Gameparse. It's easy enough to do it yourself, and you remove any factors that can skew the data.

Any bugs that are present may affect your outcomes, and you have no way of knowing unless you are able to debug Gameparse specifically.

[Toxigen]

You're misunderstanding; when I said dual wield, I mean swapping to an offhand weapon inbetween 2-hander swings. Paladins lose a lot of DPS compared to an ideally played Warrior/Ranger/Monk because of not having dual wield (plus all the other reasons).



There is at max 1 person (you) out there doing this.

[Troxx]

You're misunderstanding; when I said dual wield, I mean swapping to an offhand weapon inbetween 2-hander swings.

Ah man … not this horse shit again.

[Toxigen]

yeah so back in the real world 2 handers are pretty sweet these days

premo 1 handers for raiding

[Samoht]

That's not even going to work. When you remove your 2h, your offhand is basically going to fire immediately. You'd then equip your offhand weapon and hope that your main hand doesn't fire before you get the 2 hander back in.

Guaranteed dps loss.

The only reason weapon twisting works for monks is because they have h2h skill. You watch combat logs, wait for 2h swing, then unequip, wait for fist swing, re-equip. It works for warriors the exact same way, except it does significantly less damage.

Not worth.

[Ripqozko]

Ah man … not this horse shit again.

its like DSM variant has arrived

[Gloomlord]

Ironic, considering he went off at DSM for a while.

[Ripqozko]

He who remains

[enjchanter]

I'm bout to go zero mode

[Snaggles]

Most knights can just hover-swap their epic and not lose anything off the delay timer. Even the SK epic vs the tunare sword is a 6 delay difference pre-haste (for those w/o slam).

The issue is...its not much dps. Even a hover click isnt worth it. Hell, it's barely worth kicking as anything but a monk on a raid target. My last ranger vindi I did 100 dps and just over 11k damage, I kicked three times, I did a total of 20 damage from kick.

The off-hand swap isnt worth it. Most quality 2h's are around 40 delay, fully hasted that's 20 delay. It's 2 seconds before your MH fires. If you are doing enough damage to be noticable on a parse you are more worried about dumping aggro and not dying than swapping in an offhand weapon for more dps.

[Zuranthium]

There is at max 1 person (you) out there doing this.

Wrong, it has been happening since 1999, and the Warrior and Monk who won BotB did this. If you are too lazy to put the effort in, that is your own problem. Granted, the amount of robotic execution it requires without a macro is not the most fun, but playing melee in this game is not that fun anyway. Might as well do something more than stand around autoattacking when it matters for a fight.

That's not even going to work. When you remove your 2h, your offhand is basically going to fire immediately.

You don't understand how it works. You don't leave auto-attack on. Using auto-attack isn't needed at all, weapon attacks can be manually pressed.

The off-hand swap isnt worth it.

Yes it is, you're going to get a 20% DPS increase at minimum. That can absolutely make the difference between being able to solo something or not with a character, and for the general amount of MOB's you can farm when grinding.

Most quality 2h's are around 40 delay, fully hasted that's 20 delay.

2+ seconds is sufficient to do the swaps but there are many times where a melee does not have full haste (aka, playing actual classic EQ before everyone has full haste gear/buffs, or any time a melee is doing something without a high level Enchanter around to buff them). It was 4+ second attack delays for Warriors in many situations in 1999, hence why the technique was born. It's boring as fuck standing around and just staring at the screen waiting for your character to do something, and the DPS increase when swapping is very noticeable.

[Crede]

I'm going to pull a DSM here and demand some logs to see what the actual DPS difference could be. If it amounts to like 1-2 dps tops, not worth it IMO to go totally apeshit with APM. Despite what people think, player fatigue is a thing and you will burn out faster doing this. If it's going to be more significant, say for instance similar to what the 52/58 SK pet can put out, then I could potentially be on board.

[plzrelax]

Also if you mess up at any point or misclick that would ruin the whole thing

[Toxigen]

at least dsm has real numbers to go by

this joker is just "but muh theoretical says this is good"

[Snaggles]

Nah 2 seconds is an eternity. Plenty of time to swap a weapon, drop aggro with a spell or evade/flop macro, glug a Wort and refresh a junk buff. EQ raiding is just Dance Dance Revolution with a keyboard after-all.

I’m with the rest. Throw up a video doing this for a couple minutes or just stop trolling.

[Jimjam]

Wrong, it has been happening since 1999, and the Warrior and Monk who won BotB did this. If you are too lazy to put the effort in, that is your own problem. Granted, the amount of robotic execution it requires without a macro is not the most fun, but playing melee in this game is not that fun anyway. Might as well do something more than stand around autoattacking when it matters for a fight.



You don't understand how it works. You don't leave auto-attack on. Using auto-attack isn't needed at all, weapon attacks can be manually pressed.



Yes it is, you're going to get a 20% DPS increase at minimum. That can absolutely make the difference between being able to solo something or not with a character, and for the general amount of MOB's you can farm when grinding.



2+ seconds is sufficient to do the swaps but there are many times where a melee does not have full haste (aka, playing actual classic EQ before everyone has full haste gear/buffs, or any time a melee is doing something without a high level Enchanter around to buff them). It was 4+ second attack delays for Warriors in many situations in 1999, hence why the technique was born. It's boring as fuck standing around and just staring at the screen waiting for your character to do something, and the DPS increase when swapping is very noticeable.
I remember my Kunark manual mentioning ‘x’ being the offhand attack. I never got it to work. What is the trick?

Also if you mess up at any point or misclick that would ruin the whole thing Click detection in client is terrible, so it is not just a skill issue either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah 2 seconds is an eternity. Plenty of time to swap a weapon, drop aggro with a spell or evade/flop macro, glug a Wort and refresh a junk buff. EQ raiding is just Dance Dance Revolution with a keyboard after-all.

I’m with the rest. Throw up a video doing this for a couple minutes or just stop trolling.

I've asked for data, logs and videos from Z before. As of yet he hasn't provided anything. I hope he will provide something and prove everybody wrong, but I am not holding my breath.

[Zuranthium]

Plenty of time to swap a weapon, drop aggro with a spell or evade/flop macro, glug a Wort and refresh a junk buff. EQ raiding is just Dance Dance Revolution with a keyboard after-all.

Raiding is not all of EQ and even when raiding you don't always need to be dropping aggro or managing buffs in combat. For a Monk it's laughable to suggest that it's difficult to just click the weapon on and off for fist damage while managing to flop as needed. If you're a Warrior tanking, then you're not trying to drop aggro in the first place, LMAO. You're either using a clicky to build aggro at the start of the fight or you're just sitting there auto-attacking and pressing one combat skill button when refreshed. If "only attacking" is what's happening, then maximum effectiveness is 2-hander + offhand swapping.

I'm going to pull a DSM here and demand some logs to see what the actual DPS difference could be. If it amounts to like 1-2 dps tops, not worth it IMO to go totally apeshit with APM. If it's going to be more significant, say for instance similar to what the 52/58 SK pet can put out, then I could potentially be on board.

The difference is easily calculatable. Just plug in the numbers for a character's dual wield chance and the damage of the weapon being used. Using an offhand is obviously more than 1-2 DPS; that's already completely obvious when dual-wielding normally. It's braindead how certain people are saying swapping to an offhand "doesn't matter" or is only "theoretical", when this has been done since 1999 and was used to win BotB.

Quick calculation example: for a Ranger at Level 60 using Shovel of the Harvest + Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn (their best 2H + offhand combo), the offhand swap creates a 22% increase in DPS compared to not weapon swapping. That percentage increases when using a 2-hander that isn't the absolute best, like for example the Argent Defender that is easily obtainable on p99 (and makes swapping more user friendly, because of the longer delay); 26% increase in that case.

[skulldudes]

jesus christ man put up or shut up

[Ripqozko]

He could at least show an aary parse higher than mine, seems simple enough

[Samoht]

Wait, so he's talking about PVP? Ok, I can see warrior weapon twisting working in PVP where every little HP matters.

PVE still useless.

[Ripqozko]

Wait, so he's talking about PVP? Ok, I can see warrior weapon twisting working in PVP where every little HP matters.

PVE still useless.

If he's talking pvp there's only like 10 people that will care total

[Vexenu]

I can't even see how this would be useful in PvP, since any melee vs. melee fight is always jousting with the highest damage two-handed weapon you have, not standing next to each other autistically equipping an offhand weapon between swings.

This shit is pure theorycraft.

[enjchanter]

Nah 2 seconds is an eternity. Plenty of time to swap a weapon, drop aggro with a spell or evade/flop macro, glug a Wort and refresh a junk buff. EQ raiding is just Dance Dance Revolution with a keyboard after-all.

I’m with the rest. Throw up a video doing this for a couple minutes or just stop trolling.

Dance dance revolution atleast has an apm above like 6

[Samoht]

I can't even see how this would be useful in PvP, since any melee vs. melee fight is always jousting with the highest damage two-handed weapon you have, not standing next to each other autistically equipping an offhand weapon between swings.

This shit is pure theorycraft.

You swing the 2h and unequip for bonus 5 damage. It's that fast. Lol.

Like kicking.

[Snaggles]

Ok so DPS for a ranger involves an argent protector. (Lol). 42/49 or 2.5 second delay.
“Best offhand ratio” is a Scimiter of the Emerald Dawn @ 20/34 (it isn’t).
A Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn drops to 17 delay (1.7 seconds).
That gives you .8 seconds to swap weapons and get a swing off before you miss a MH AP swing, or at least delay it.

Or…

Hasted a shovel of the harvest goes from 43 delay to about 22 (2.2 seconds).
A Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn drops to 17 delay (1.7 seconds).
That gives you half a second to swap weapons and get a swing off before you miss a MH shovel swing, or at least delay it.

In my situation a Meljeldin is 38 delay, 19 hasted. 1.9 seconds
A Claw of Lightning is 18 delay, 9 delay hasted. .9 seconds.
That’s a margin of error of just about 1 second.

Ps: just use different weapons for a warrior and the results are equally stupid.

[Gloomlord]

And ping is obviously a factor, isn't it?

[Snaggles]

And ping is obviously a factor, isn't it?

Yea I would think so. With my ranger even timing jolts with 2h swings isnt a perfect result. I expect the same from monks. So swapping multiple slots in that time is just...not easy.

If there is a warrior out there for example consistantly topping the charts with a 2h like an Vulak, Eashen or Meljeldin using this trick (alone), I'd be interested. It's still a lot of work and a lot of luck. I just dont hear about it outside the forums.

[Ripqozko]

i dont see why he cant just link a aary parse, surely the guy that is this good would have one somewhere in there

[Infectious]

I duo'd with a shaman mostly on my war and zerked the whole way to 60. Eashen 2 hander absolutely insane dps can confirm. No way would a knight keep up with that.

Problem with 90% of warriors they aren't willing to do that. It's like people who cry about enchanters. Where 5% of the enchanters actually farm shit. The rest die to pet breaks at level 45 in com.

[greatdane]

I can't even see how this would be useful in PvP, since any melee vs. melee fight is always jousting with the highest damage two-handed weapon you have, not standing next to each other autistically equipping an offhand weapon between swings.

This shit is pure theorycraft.

Yeah, it wouldn't work at all in PvP unless you're fighting some AFK idiot. Jousting means running through each other and tapping auto-attack, then moving away and doubling back while the swing timer counts down. Literally like medieval jousting, hence the name. It's mechanically impossible to add a weapon-swap during the milliseconds that you're within striking distance. It's hard enough just timing the auto-attack with EQ's horrible netcode and hitbox detection. Anyone who thinks this is something you can do in PvP is someone who has never done it and just wants to sound smart.

[7thGate]

Ok so DPS for a ranger involves an argent protector. (Lol). 42/49 or 2.5 second delay.
“Best offhand ratio” is a Scimiter of the Emerald Dawn @ 20/34 (it isn’t).
A Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn drops to 17 delay (1.7 seconds).
That gives you .8 seconds to swap weapons and get a swing off before you miss a MH AP swing, or at least delay it.

OrÂ…

Hasted a shovel of the harvest goes from 43 delay to about 22 (2.2 seconds).
A Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn drops to 17 delay (1.7 seconds).
That gives you half a second to swap weapons and get a swing off before you miss a MH shovel swing, or at least delay it.

In my situation a Meljeldin is 38 delay, 19 hasted. 1.9 seconds
A Claw of Lightning is 18 delay, 9 delay hasted. .9 seconds.
ThatÂ’s a margin of error of just about 1 second.

Ps: just use different weapons for a warrior and the results are equally stupid.

My understanding of how this is supposed to work is that you attack with the offhand once per mainhand attack round. Since your two hander has a delay of 43 with a shovel, you effectively lock your offhand to delay 43. That makes scimitar the best offhand for this I'm aware of, since the long delay on the weapon is irrelevant and it has high base damage, effectively adding a 20/43 offhand dual wielded with the 50/43.

I'm still skeptical its possible to execute this, though. I would want to see someone do it or at least get a parse.

[Videri]

My understanding of how this is supposed to work is that you attack with the offhand once per mainhand attack round. Since your two hander has a delay of 43 with a shovel, you effectively lock your offhand to delay 43. That makes scimitar the best offhand for this I'm aware of, since the long delay on the weapon is irrelevant and it has high base damage, effectively adding a 20/43 offhand dual wielded with the 50/43.

I'm still skeptical its possible to execute this, though. I would want to see someone do it or at least get a parse.

That is a common myth. Mainhand and offhand are on separate, independent timers.

But since there is no damage bonus for the offhand (like there is for mainhand), it does make sense to focus on ratio only for the offhand weapon, if DPS is the only goal.

[Samoht]

Yeah, they're on separate timers. Most of the time, offhand is going to swing almost immediately after you unequip main, so you don't have time to swap in a weapon unless it's already on a delay.

This just isn't going to be worth it under any circumstances (except being a monk).

[7thGate]

That is a common myth. Mainhand and offhand are on separate, independent timers.

But since there is no damage bonus for the offhand (like there is for mainhand), it does make sense to focus on ratio only for the offhand weapon, if DPS is the only goal.

The assertion is that the offhand, being on an independent timer, does not fire when the mainhand attacks or when weapons are swapped, but only when the offhand actually attacks. Because you're swapping back to the mainhand after attacking once with the offhand, the timer will recharge during the swapping process, and you only get one attack per mainhand round out of the offhand. If you have a faster weapon, you just recharge the offhand timer earlier while no offhand is equipped and the lower delay is wasted.

[PatChapp]

Warriors just bow quest in PvP.
Weapon swapping would be dumb, noone stands toe to toe in eq PvP. Swing your weighted axe, run away and fire some arrows

[Jimjam]

Yeah, they're on separate timers. Most of the time, offhand is going to swing almost immediately after you unequip main, so you don't have time to swap in a weapon unless it's already on a delay.

This just isn't going to be worth it under any circumstances (except being a monk).

This is why the theory is you turn off autoattack before removing the 2hander?

[Ripqozko]

Did he find an aary parse to compare to mine yet?

[Jimjam]

Did he find an aary parse to compare to mine yet? I mean to be glib, but of course not.

I have the appropriate off hand, which 2hs would I want for my ranger? I’ll put it as a back burner project. Maybe 4 months time I’ll make some results.

[Ripqozko]

I mean to be glib, but of course not.

I have the appropriate off hand, which 2hs would I want for my ranger? I’ll put it as a back burner project. Maybe 4 months time I’ll make some results.

He was saying shovel to do the offhand thing, my parse was with cek 2h with none of the swapping .

[Snaggles]

I mean to be glib, but of course not.

I have the appropriate off hand, which 2hs would I want for my ranger? I’ll put it as a back burner project. Maybe 4 months time I’ll make some results.

For raiding there are only two: Shovel of the Harvest and Meljeldin, Bane of Giants. Mel is a bit better ratio with better combat stats, shovel has 100 raw hps and is a bit slower so jolts and nukes are easier to place mid-swing.

But outside raiding, Id prob get an Exquisite 2hs and call it a day past level 30. Same skill as the swarmcaller.

[Jimjam]

For raiding there are only two: Shovel of the Harvest and Meljeldin, Bane of Giants. Mel is a bit better ratio with better combat stats, shovel has 100 raw hps and is a bit slower so jolts and nukes are easier to place mid-swing.

But outside raiding, Id prob get an Exquisite 2hs and call it a day past level 30. Same skill as the swarmcaller.

I believe I have mel and the scimitar on Jimjam. I can probably test on him (warrior) rather than ranger.

[Zuranthium]

Wait, so he's talking about PVP? Ok, I can see warrior weapon twisting working in PVP where every little HP matters.

PVE still useless.

It's better for PVE than PVP (very bizarre how you think DPS is "useless"), since NPC's generally are standing still. Still useful for PVP though, particularly when landing a stun or when someone is casting.

Most of the time, offhand is going to swing almost immediately after you unequip main, so you don't have time to swap in a weapon.

That's not how it works. You don't auto attack while taking off the primary weapon.

Ok so DPS for a ranger involves an argent protector. (Lol). 42/49 or 2.5 second delay.
“Best offhand ratio” is a Scimiter of the Emerald Dawn @ 20/34 (it isn’t).
A Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn drops to 17 delay (1.7 seconds).
That gives you .8 seconds to swap weapons and get a swing off before you miss a MH AP swing, or at least delay it

You don't understand the mechanic. The offhand weapon swings right after you equip it and press the attack button. As 7thGate said, the offhand weapon used while "Two-hander dual wielding" ends up having the same delay as your 2-hander, so what matters is the damage on the offhand weapon. Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn is the best.

The offhand weapon does need to have a somewhat lower delay then the two-hander still, so there isn't a timing issue of swapping a bit later on one round and missing out on the offhand swing because of it. The delay of the Scimitar is sufficient meet that requirement for a 42+ delay Two-hander.

I believe I have mel and the scimitar on Jimjam. I can probably test on him (warrior) rather than ranger.

Meljeldin may run into some trouble with the Scimitar if you're trying with high haste. 38 delay leaves very little wiggle room, both for swapping back to the primary in time for that attack round, and the timing of swapping to the offhand. If you are a bit slow to offhand swap on a certain round, then the next round your offhand timer can be slightly delayed, causing you to either miss the offhand that round or wait too long and delay the primary swing.

I think a weapon with at least 42 delay is needed if having high haste. Or, if you can manage to always primary swap in time with a 38 delay two-hander and high haste, an offhand with a bit of a lower delay than 34 may still need to be used. Very interested to see you experiment with it!

[Jimjam]

Will plugging primary with a firebeetle eye or whatever prevent it’s timer from getting esten on a fumble?

[Zuranthium]

The primary attack should never be "eaten", it just becomes delayed from what it should have been if you were slow to swap to the offhand and back again. Trying to insert a lightstone into your primary slot wouldn't help anything, it just takes up more of your time adding that extra step.

[Jimjam]

Does it add so much time? Having a lightstone on your cursor when you unequip the 2hs doesn’t seem a big deal? It also lets you just autoi the secondary in.

Have you actually tried this? Is it theory quest?

[Jimjam]

The primary attack should never be "eaten", it just becomes delayed from what it should have been if you were slow to swap to the offhand and back again. Trying to insert a lightstone into your primary slot wouldn't help anything, it just takes up more of your time adding that extra step.

Okay the fact you aren't doing non-weapon to primary, 2hs to 1hs (bagged), 1hs to secondary, 1hs to 2hs (bagged), 2hs to primary as your cycle kinda proves to me you're trolling and never actually used this.

[7thGate]

Okay the fact you aren't doing non-weapon to primary, 2hs to 1hs (bagged), 1hs to secondary, 1hs to 2hs (bagged), 2hs to primary as your cycle kinda proves to me you're trolling and never actually used this.

I don't think this does anything different, does it? If you don't include a lightstone it's still empty to primary, 2 hs to 1 hs (bagged), 1 hs to secondary, 1 hs to 2 hs (bagged), 2 hs to primary. You still need to turn auto attack off before you swap out the two hander or you'll punch with the offhand, I think. I don't think the lightstone prevents that.

Or are we concerned the mainhand timer is going to come off cool down by the time we pulse autoattack (or is there an offhand attack button?) With the 1 hs equipped? If you're that slow you're already seriously screwing yourself up by trying this.

[Snaggles]

You don't understand the mechanic. The offhand weapon swings right after you equip it and press the attack button. As 7thGate said, the offhand weapon used while "Two-hander dual wielding" ends up having the same delay as your 2-hander, so what matters is the damage on the offhand weapon. Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn is the best.


Oh I understand the mechanic. I wish you understood how time worked.

Meljeldin haste capped is 19 delay or just under 2 seconds to complete the cycle. Not just once, but every two seconds for an entire fight. Most Vindi's are about 140 seconds. Have fun doing that cycle 70 times and being flawless at it.

It's pretty easy, just fire up OBS or any screen capture system. Record a couple minute video. Outside using programable hardware or systems to make this into a one click system, which is not legal, I dont see this being a rational ask. Especially since if anyone cared that much to sit there stationary and hit 2 buttons they would just be
on a rogue.

Looking forward to you actually running something (like a video) rather than just your mouth.

The primary attack should never be "eaten", it just becomes delayed from what it should have been if you were slow to swap to the offhand and back again. Trying to insert a lightstone into your primary slot wouldn't help anything, it just takes up more of your time adding that extra step.

Goodness, finally. Ding ding ding. So you're trading MH ratio for a free offhand swing if you execute w/o robotic flawlessness.

[Guesty07]

Guys please do not listen to this person. Weapon swap does not exist for anyone but a monk. End of story. Theory quest at its finest

[Toxigen]

bUt muH wEaPon SWapS!!11!!

[Crede]

Ngl This feels a lot like dsms root rotting theory where shamans can root rot 8 mobs at a time and equate to mage dps in a fast killing xp group. Just throwing numbers together and claiming it as reality. I’m sure an hour session of raiding you might see a slight uptick in the first minute but then it would likely level out to the point of worthlessness.

As others have already asked for, let’s see some proof.

[Jimjam]

I don't think this does anything different, does it? If you don't include a lightstone it's still empty to primary, 2 hs to 1 hs (bagged), 1 hs to secondary, 1 hs to 2 hs (bagged), 2 hs to primary. You still need to turn auto attack off before you swap out the two hander or you'll punch with the offhand, I think. I don't think the lightstone prevents that.

Or are we concerned the mainhand timer is going to come off cool down by the time we pulse autoattack (or is there an offhand attack button?) With the 1 hs equipped? If you're that slow you're already seriously screwing yourself up by trying this.

Yeah, the stone is insurance against the primary going off as fist if you fumble (or lag). It's something I found useful in the few times I've tried offhand swings. Obviously its not a strategy I routinely use. The attention required to keep it up just is too demanding at the expense of situational awareness (not being distracted by loads of clicks so you can take on whats going on around you is one of the benefits of warrior)!

[Duik]

Today my lil ranger main hand (lolocaust) punched for 3 points when swapping from 2hs to 2 paw whips. D P S fucking machine.

[Zuranthium]

Okay the fact you aren't doing non-weapon to primary, 2hs to 1hs (bagged), 1hs to secondary, 1hs to 2hs (bagged), 2hs to primary as your cycle ...

You're confused about something. There's no need to have a lightstone, you just press a button to swing the offhand once after equipping it, there shouldn't be a risk of auto attack eating that next primary swing.

Does it add so much time? Having a lightstone on your cursor when you unequip the 2hs doesn’t seem a big deal?

I suppose it doesn't take more clicks itself to include the lightstone in the rotation. Hadn't used that before, but now I see what you mean. However, there might be more lag, clicking an item into already equipped primary slot, instead of just putting the 2-hander in. Would need to test that.

Oh I understand the mechanic. Meljeldin haste capped is 19 delay or just under 2 seconds to complete the cycle. So you're trading MH ratio for a free offhand swing if you execute w/o robotic flawlessness.

Hello, reading comprehension? I already said people probably shouldn't be doing this with a haste capped Meljeldin (unless using macro). It should be 42+ delay weapon used, unless having less haste. And no, you clearly didn't understand the mechanic with what you wrote before.

if anyone cared that much to sit there stationary and hit 2 buttons they would just be on a rogue.

What a silly fallacy. Warriors and Rangers want to maximize their DPS, it has nothing to do with being a Rogue. Even besides that, EQ melee combat without weapon swapping generally just equates to standing around and doing almost no actual actions/movement anyway.

[Ripqozko]

You're confused about something. There's no need to have a lightstone, you just press a button to swing the offhand once after equipping it, there shouldn't be a risk of auto attack eating that next primary swing.



I suppose it doesn't take more clicks itself to include the lightstone in the rotation. Hadn't used that before, but now I see what you mean. However, there might be more lag, clicking an item into already equipped primary slot, instead of just putting the 2-hander in. Would need to test that.



Hello, reading comprehension? I already said people probably shouldn't be doing this with a haste capped Meljeldin (unless using macro). It should be 42+ delay weapon used, unless having less haste. And no, you clearly didn't understand the mechanic with what you wrote before.



What a silly fallacy. Warriors and Rangers want to maximize their DPS, it has nothing to do with being a Rogue. Even besides that, EQ melee combat without weapon swapping generally just equates to standing around and doing almost no actual actions/movement anyway.

Do you have 1 single parse?

[enjchanter]

No this is a theorycraft

[Zuranthium]

No this is a theorycraft

No it isn't.

Do you have 1 single parse?

I don't play the game anymore, stop asking for parse (unless you're going to offer an account with equipped Warrior/Ranger; then maybe I would reinstall and come do it quick). Anyone can do it for themself, if they bother to put the effort in.

[Snaggles]

I don't play the game anymore, stop asking for parse (unless you're going to offer an account with equipped Warrior/Ranger; then maybe I would reinstall and come do it quick). Anyone can do it for themself, if they bother to put the effort in.

Lol. Sure lemme level up a mid-50's ranger or warrior with an Argent Protector and Scimitar of The Emerald Dawn. That's way easier than you logging in and parsing on a random Vindi at the WL zone.

[Duik]

This part of the thread is a joke right?

[Guesty07]

TheoryQuest, you're in our world now.

[Gloomlord]

Zuranthium is an elitist who wants to feel superior to others. Nothing more to discuss here...

[Ripqozko]

This might be worse than DSM

[PatChapp]

For sure it's worse,dsm has no problem posting logs and videos of him doing his crazy stuff
Side note: warrior much more fun to gear than a knight,upgrades feel like they make a big difference rather than almost nothing. Getting my warrior his epic certainly the coolest thing I've done on p99, knight epics are very boring

[Toxigen]

For sure it's worse,dsm has no problem posting logs and videos of him doing his crazy stuff
Side note: warrior much more fun to gear than a knight,upgrades feel like they make a big difference rather than almost nothing. Getting my warrior his epic certainly the coolest thing I've done on p99, knight epics are very boring

mfw soulfire is more useful than paladin epic

[Crede]

For sure it's worse,dsm has no problem posting logs and videos of him doing his crazy stuff
Side note: warrior much more fun to gear than a knight,upgrades feel like they make a big difference rather than almost nothing. Getting my warrior his epic certainly the coolest thing I've done on p99, knight epics are very boring

You done sk epic? Literally the coolest looking weapon with the best proc. Most game changing weapon imo.

[Guesty07]

SK epic most game changing? Cleric > Bard > Rogue > Wizard > everyone else

[Troxx]

Have you actually tried this? Is it theory quest?

He has not.

He’s just blowing smoke. This is just not doable. Not once successfully without losses of primary swings and certainly not reproducible consistently. Even if it were doable, it would be insanity inducing for really marginal gain. I get annoyed pulling this trick on my monk where you do it all in 2 clicks … taking almost no time.

If bandolier was a thing in this era, it’d be more believable.

[skulldudes]

my favorite part is how it's a technique used only by "elite warriors who know how to play their class" except it "doesn't work" with ntov wep w/ capped haste

[7thGate]

To be fair, Warriors have better weapons than Meljeldin. Especially if it actually made the difference in this working, Twisted Steel Bastard Sword would suddenly be a lot better than Meljeldin.

I'm still skeptical you can do this even with Twisted Steel though. This is a neat theorycraft, but feels like it might be more applicable to leveling in classic environments where you might actually be swinging around a weapon that really has a 5+ second delay. Like, Gatorsmash Maul + Runed Falchion or something.

[Jimjam]

So I revisited this in KC, and as anticipated the attention put on spamming clicking just is too expensive, ruining situational awareness. Fighting a curate, swapping in and out a secondary, but took a while to realise some skeletal guardians were passing and ended up having to train out. 0/10

[enjchanter]

weaponmaster RP is insane

[Samoht]

Okay the fact you aren't doing non-weapon to primary, 2hs to 1hs (bagged), 1hs to secondary, 1hs to 2hs (bagged), 2hs to primary as your cycle kinda proves to me you're trolling and never actually used this.

The answer to whether or not this is worth the potential DPS increase is so obvious that there's no reason to even bother testing.

[Ripqozko]

To be fair, Warriors have better weapons than Meljeldin. Especially if it actually made the difference in this working, Twisted Steel Bastard Sword would suddenly be a lot better than Meljeldin.

I'm still skeptical you can do this even with Twisted Steel though. This is a neat theorycraft, but feels like it might be more applicable to leveling in classic environments where you might actually be swinging around a weapon that really has a 5+ second delay. Like, Gatorsmash Maul + Runed Falchion or something.

Wars do, rangers don’t

[PatChapp]

You done sk epic? Literally the coolest looking weapon with the best proc. Most game changing weapon imo.

Doesn't change much, your still logging in a cleric bot

[Infectious]

Warrior should be trying to stay berserk in most situations where they aren't depending on Complete Heal; it's viable while tanking for plenty of group content. Warrior can dual wield, knights can not (you were playing Warrior sub-optimally). Warrior has higher offensive skillcaps and also triple attack at 60. Warrior gets precision/aggressive discipline (and precision disc on p99 is bugged to give 100% hit rate). Add up all those things and it's a big difference, a huge one when considering a Warrior using disc.



I'm taking the Warrior pre-Velious for a Sebilis exp group. Paladin stats are poopy at that point and they cause the group an exp penalty on top of it (technically in Velious era a Warrior still provides the group a better exp modifier, but it's very minor at that point).

Velious era, for a group like that, it generally won't matter between the Warrior or Paladin. Having the Paladin will allow the Cleric to be lazier but that's not a strictly better thing. If planning to break a hard area of the zone, Warrior popping defensive disc can be nice.



Warriors don't have an "aggro problem" unless you're with a group of bad players, or trying to fight content where your casters are too low level for root to land consistently.

As long as someone is keeping targets rooted, the warrior can stay in zerk pretty easy and just back up for patch heals when needed.

[PatChapp]

mfw soulfire is more useful than paladin epic

Soulfire palis are awesome,just such a time investment everytime you burn it.
If your going to play a knight at least play a pali,100% less chance of being shelved once you hit 60

[Snaggles]

Wars do, rangers don’t

Using Lucy's damage bonus table and the napkin-math calculation, ratio wise the Mel and the Twisted are very close.

Twisted Steel Bastard Sword 3.20
Melijeldin Bane of the Giants 3.210
Vulaxe 3.238

The whole premise is very stupid though. The only time I could see even putting forth the tryhard effort (ie it actually working but being a PITA) is if the Tantor's Tusk had a better ratio. Say like 65/60 or something. Swapping weapon sets every 3 seconds haste capped would still be a chore without programmable hardware which is not allowed by my understanding of the P99 rule set.

In general, all melees should...
Use the best weapons possible
Get the best buffs possible
Melee as much as you can without dying
Use some dirty tricks if you got them, swap outs like primals, cast nukes, BFG etc.

Don't spend time tinfoil hat thinking outside the box. You can only do what you can do. Any time a warrior or ranger beats a rogue should be a celebration because in general if its apples vs apples that won't happen often.

[Naethyn]

The real question for rangers is shovel vs cek.

[Ripqozko]

The real question for rangers is shovel vs cek.

Cek

[Naethyn]

For warriors a faster 2h means more crippling blows which translates to more dps than a slower weapon has a better ratio. For rangers I don't see any benefits to a faster weapon when calculating dps and shovel has a better ratio. That said I've been #ceklyfe this whole time, but if an opportunity arises I'll get a shovel and try it.

[Ripqozko]

For warriors a faster 2h means more crippling blows which translates to more dps than a slower weapon has a better ratio. For rangers I don't see any benefits to a faster weapon when calculating dps and shovel has a better ratio. That said I've been #ceklyfe this whole time, but if an opportunity arises I'll get a shovel and try it.

i have shovel on my pally i like it in general

[Jimjam]

i have shovel on my pally i like it in general

Deffo BIS for Brell Pallies. Dirt for the Dirt god!

[bobjonesp99]

so i expected it to be low but expected it to be easier.

on the most recent vindi i attempted this with a 38 delay vyemm 2h on my warrior (41 haste plus 58 from vog). even without turning off attack and doing the offhand swap (ie i was just unequip 2h after primary 2h then reequipping after offhand attack).... it was too fast to do reliably without making a mistake and firing a h2h primary attack instead of the 2h. i think the punch dps from gamparse was like 1.5 (~200 total damage); to be fair i dont have my h2h skill up much so while it could have been higher i missed multiple 2h hits, which reduce my 2h dps by 10+ compared to the previous vindi.

[Zuranthium]

Even if it were doable, it would be insanity inducing for really marginal gain. I get annoyed pulling this trick on my monk where you do it all in 2 clicks … taking almost no time.

20+% DPS increase is not "marginal" gain. If you think doing it with just fist offhand is difficult, that is your own issue. It's fair to say people aren't going to want to try and weapon swap with max haste all the time. Yes it is annoying to do. But playing melee in this game is boring and weapon swapping factually creates the best DPS. People should be aware, try to get better at it, and use it when they feel like putting the effort in.

my favorite part is how it's a technique used only by "elite warriors who know how to play their class" except it "doesn't work" with ntov wep w/ capped haste

It does work with top tier weapons and haste, but regardless the haste cap is 74% in actual classic Everquest (and for any character Level 50 or lower), where the technique originated and was being used by the best Warriors. The game is not just Level 60 with max haste. Even at 60 with good gear there will be times a Warrior doesn't have max haste, particularly for a solo challenge.

So I revisited this in KC, and as anticipated the attention put on spamming clicking just is too expensive, ruining situational awareness. Fighting a curate, swapping in and out a secondary, but took a while to realise some skeletal guardians were passing and ended up having to train out.

Weird fallacy. Why were you pulling a curate somewhere there would be pathers (soloing I assume)? If you pull properly, then you're just going to be standing there auto attacking until the target dies. If you're just standing around auto attacking, then there is opportunity to weapon swap instead and kill faster. And don't say you're too busy doing other things in groups all the time. In most groups the Warrior is still just standing there doing nothing else while fighting. Some of the most boring gameplay sessions I've had are logging onto a friend's Warrior to help them grind. Weapon swapping was the only thing to do that added dimension. Maybe it's still not fun, but at least I knew I was contributing more.

[Toxigen]

strange hill to die on

[Samoht]

some people are just bad

missing a main hand swing for a 5 damage offhand punch is bad

missing several main hand swings for a 20 damage offhand slash is worse

i haven't seen any evidence that anybody has ever used this to any degree of success before except for on a monk.

warrior secondary damage is negligible at best.

this is just nonsense.

don't do it.

[Zuranthium]

strange hill to die on

Yes it's definitely strange to keep insisting that extra DPS (and possibly procs) doesn't matter, simply because you're too lazy to do something. Reminds me of people who don't cast between meditate ticks properly and lose a lot of mana.

some people are just bad

missing a main hand swing for a 5 damage offhand punch is bad

missing several main hand swings for a 20 damage offhand slash is worse

You don't miss any mainhand swings. Unless you're bad. So don't be?

warrior secondary damage is negligible at best.

No it isn't. Otherwise we wouldn't have bothered to dual wield so much in this game. People would have just used a one-hand weapon + shield most of the time (in the cases where they had a better one-hander available than a two-hander, like the mosscovered twig era).

[PatChapp]

This is a great argument,please continue.

[Toxigen]

this guy is the ultimate turbonerd

[Gloomlord]

Zuranthium, you realise nobody is saying that "extra DPS doesn't matter", but rather that "miniscule increases in damage requiring rapid weapon swaps, good ping and fast mouse clicking permitting, isn't worth the effort"?

You chose the worst game possible to try and reach the skill cap.

[Samoht]

Zuranthium, you realise nobody is saying that "extra DPS doesn't matter", but rather that "miniscule increases in damage requiring rapid weapon swaps, good ping and fast mouse clicking permitting, isn't worth the effort"?

it's worse than that. if you miss your main hand swings once because they're replaced by a punch this will LOWER your DPS.

this is just a terrible idea all around.

[Gloomlord]

Of course he'll say "because you're a baddie" or some such crap, won't he?

[Guesty07]

Still waiting for parse

[bobjonesp99]

Still waiting for parse

your more likely to bump into elvis and tupac having a drink at the bar

[Zuranthium]

miniscule increases in damage requiring rapid weapon swaps, good ping and fast mouse clicking permitting, isn't worth the effort

It's not "miniscule" increases. Stop saying that. It is a very significant increase and it doesn't require good ping or fast mouse clicking if you don't have a lot of haste (which is something that will happen during various periods of a melee's lifetime). Even when it does require that, you're simply talking about personal capability. Whether it's worth the effort or not depends on someone's ability and willingness.

You have a major attitude issue, btw. Nothing you write is constructive and you constantly are making incorrect assumptions.

if you miss your main hand swings once because they're replaced by a punch this will LOWER your DPS

That never happens if you're doing it properly. It's not even difficult to avoid that.

I don't see how a click macro for this would be punishable either. It's not some kind of AFK bot or client modification or anything like that, and regular macros and things like GINA timers are already being used.

Still waiting for parse

It's already been shown, and anyone can easily do it themself, both the math (https://jklein.me/eqcalc/ - set the offhand weapon speed to whatever your primary is) and a simple test with no haste to get the hang of it.

[Naethyn]

Gina doesn't interact with the client. A click macro is not allowed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Gina doesn't interact with the client. A click macro is not allowed.

Exactly. Gina just reads the logs and provides feedback from there. It's not allowed on P99 to use a program that automatically mimics key presses.

You need to manually press all of the keys you are using, even when using Gina.

As far as I am aware, P99 macros canot be used to equip/unequip an item. You need to click with your mouse to do it.

[Zuranthium]

Gina doesn't interact with the client.

Yes it does. Live tracking the game data and responding to it. Much different than a simple log file.

How would a very basic click macro even be detectable for this? If someone is not AFK and not doing something that isn't humanly possible already, then there's no smoking gun to point at. Regular macros already allow people to automate pauses that can't be exactly timed with human perception, and to do actions that would normally take more clicks and/or button presses. I would argue GINA introduces more of "cheat" than a weapon swap macro; there is no in-game timer for when mezzes and such are going to end. Having a program that tracks all of it perfectly and tells you in advance is a big advantage.

And really, with the ping disparity that has been brought up, a weapon swap macro would make the playing field more fair. Poor Gloomy with his Australian ping is mad as hell, it's not his fault he was born in the Desert of Ro, and I've experienced that problem in several games myself (including this one with zone loading times; very impactful for PvP).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes it does. Live tracking the game data and responding to it. Much different than a simple log file.


When you are playing the game with logs enabled, Gina just reads the data being written into your log file. It checks for specific text and uses that for triggers. Gina isn't doing anything to the client executable. It says as much on the website:

https://eq.gimasoft.com/gina/Default.aspx


Introducing GINA, a log monitoring application that provides audio and visual feedback based on triggers you either define or import.



How would a very basic click macro even be detectable for this?


The P99 client does check what you and your PC is doing to some degree. This includes checking for third party programs. Most people don't want to risk getting banned, even at the cost of losing some DPS. Using a click macro is against the rules:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324838


Third party programs (MQ2 or SEQ, for example), Real Money Trades (RMT), and multi-boxing are not allowed on this server, and will result in a permanent ban for your account.

[Zuranthium]

What you linked doesn't say having click software on your computer is disallowed. A click program doesn't interact with the game code. It just tells your computer to perform a pre-defined motion of clicks on your own screen. Much like software for people with broken/dismembered hands that tells their computer to perform clicks based on eye movement.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What you linked doesn't say having click software on your computer is disallowed. A click program doesn't interact with the game code. It just tells your computer to perform a pre-defined motion of clicks on your own screen. Much like software for people with broken/dismembered hands that tells their computer to perform clicks based on eye movement.

A click program is a third party program.

[Zuranthium]

GINA is a third party program.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

GINA is a third party program.

Correct. The devs have explicitly allowed a few third party programs like gina. They are the exception. Auto click third party programs are not allowed.

[Toxigen]

gina is cheating and if you crutch on it you're terrible at the game

id normally say hope this helps but i know it does for sure

[Gloomlord]

It's not "miniscule" increases. Stop saying that. It is a very significant increase and it doesn't require good ping or fast mouse clicking if you don't have a lot of haste (which is something that will happen during various periods of a melee's lifetime). Even when it does require that, you're simply talking about personal capability. Whether it's worth the effort or not depends on someone's ability and willingness.

You have a major attitude issue, btw. Nothing you write is constructive and you constantly are making incorrect assumptions.

Noone is agreeing with you, though. More seasoned veterans than I don't concur with this.

Yeah, I do have a major attitude issue when I see arrogant people. Indeed. And you're insulting people for not complying with your ideas on how to play, so isn't it a little hypocritical for you to say I'm not constructive?

[Videri]

Zuranthium, it’s clear by your writing style that you are very intelligent. So how come your viewpoints or theories are so often at odds with the other smart/knowledgeable folks?

[Jimjam]

You can use /system as an IDE to write and execute new software such as VBS scripts from inside EQ, which makes those programs not external .... right :D

[enjchanter]

My paladin is almost level 60
I'm so excited to be a better tank than a warrior but at level 60 instead of 54

[Naethyn]

At max gear all of the tanks are really good here. I think the biggest differentiator between tanks is those with a sow sword and those without.

[enjchanter]

I have a pd robe tho

[bobjonesp99]

At max gear all of the tanks are really good here. I think the biggest differentiator between tanks is those with a sow sword and those without.

honestly in velious era i think druushk is low key a better target than pd for that reason.

[Vivitron]

At max gear all of the tanks are really good here. I think the biggest differentiator between tanks is those with a sow sword and those without.

Late velious Monks seem overpowered, but they do have this going against them.

[Zuranthium]

Noone is agreeing with you, though.

Several people have, but that's irrelevant. It's a fact that can not be disagreed with. Correctly using weapon swapping = more DPS.

It's only a question of whether an individual has the ability/willingness to do it (not difficult with a macro, which I still don't see how it would get punished and don't think it should be; highly doubt it would even be detected).

And you're insulting people for not complying with your ideas on how to play, so isn't it a little hypocritical for you to say I'm not constructive?

No, YOU have been insulting, writing shit like "just wants to feel superior to others, nothing more to discuss here". I've never said anyone has to play this way or insulted someone for not, stop putting words in my mouth. I've just discussed the mechanic and the DPS increase it brings, whereas you and others have been sticking your heads in the sand about it, clearly because you're mad at the prospect of someone else getting more mileage out of their character if they have better micro gameplay.

I think the biggest differentiator between tanks is those with a sow sword and those without.

...huh? Why.

[Gloomlord]

"I haven't insulted others"? You're so full of shit...

Your last post was pretty much mocking me for being an Australian and having to connect to an American server.

And now you're insinuating that people are lying to themselves about the ineffectiveness of weapon swapping as a Warrior.

[Jimjam]

I’m not the only one who loses mouse clicks when clicking to quickly on inventory, am I?

[Vivitron]

I’m not the only one who loses mouse clicks when clicking to quickly on inventory, am I?

Happens to me too.

[Gloomlord]

Yeah, it's almost like...it actually isn't a good idea to be weapon swapping in this manner, is it?

[PatChapp]

If any of this was feasible,try hard monks would be swapping in high ratio offhands rather than just punching

[Guesty07]

Everybody knows this doesn't work. We said as much 20 pages ago.

[Jimjam]

Another exhausting fast clicking strat is the sword and board dual wield - not swapping a shield in to bash - something new I call the Jimjam Juggle.

Lets say you have a polished granite tomahawk and a cracked darkwood shield, but you want to squeeze out a few more procs.

When primary slashes unequip, swap PGT to secondary keeping shield on cursor, then immediately requip shield and reequip the PGT to primary.

With this strategy you are now dual wielding a single polished granite tomahawk, increasing your rune procs by 50%, adding in some serious bash damage and improving your tanking thanks to shield ac.

It's exhausting and totally not worth it.

[Jimjam]

not to be confused with the Jumjum Jiggle, caused by increasingly sedentary lifestyles in Rivervale.

[Toxigen]

...huh? Why.

How to say "ive never raided competitively" without saying it. Great job bub keep clamoring for warrior weapon swaps lmao.

[Snaggles]

Everybody knows this doesn't work. We said as much 20 pages ago.

Nah it works. You just have to have crappy gear like an Argent Protector and the reflexes of a computer but no goals for this super power outside mid-tier EQ prowess.

“This one crazy carpal tunnel trick to make all the coaches jealous of your 37dps”

[Troxx]

Are we still talking about warriors trying to weapon swap lol?

[Jimjam]

Are we still talking about warriors trying to weapon swap lol?

Nah, you gotta fungi swap on tick for extra hp while wearing your tanking tunic the rest of the time.

[Toxigen]

Are we still talking about warriors trying to weapon swap lol?

The guy clamoring for war weapon swaps is the same guy that didn't understand why Naethyn put a big emphasis on SoW sword.

So yeah. There's that.

[fortior]

weapon swapping is something you do when in a scrappy small group or solo trying to punch above your weight or trying to show off imo

[Jimjam]

The guy clamoring for war weapon swaps is the same guy that didn't understand why Naethyn put a big emphasis on SoW sword.

So yeah. There's that.

In fairness, with Naethyn there is a 70% chance Naethyn is putting such a strong emphasis on a BOK because it looks great coupled with berserker armour fashion suit…

[reznor_]

A lot of shitty warriors in this thread.

[enjchanter]

I almost can't even fathom how to be a shitty warrior cuz the class is so brain dead

[reznor_]

I almost can't even fathom how to be a shitty warrior cuz the class is so brain dead

Yet, surprisingly, there is a big differential between a good warrior and a shitty one.

[Jimjam]

I almost can't even fathom how to be a shitty warrior cuz the class is so brain dead

I like to solo 51-60 untwinked on bats, show up to raids with exhausted clickies and gear worse than crusty.

[enjchanter]

you know a class is good when optimal play is using clickies to cast other classes abilities to function at a fundamental level

Yet, surprisingly, there is a big differential between a good warrior and a shitty one.


im ngl, the only difference i can think of is basically just making sure auto attack is on, and your monitor isnt off

[Allishia]

I agree except for war it is gear dependent. Krez flame + Nev horn = snap agro for group content /nod...just not many leveling warriors are going to have that combo.

[Jimjam]

you know a class is good when optimal play is using clickies to cast other classes abilities to function at a fundamental level




im ngl, the only difference i can think of is basically just making sure auto attack is on, and your monitor isnt off

I'm a big proponent of bash being upgraded to cause aggro in a similar fashion to spell stuns. When Dragons of Norrath came out one of the devs did actually say they had intended it to, didn't realise it was broke for years cos they thought people just overlooking shields as an option through ignorance.

[Botten]

you know a class is good when optimal play is using clickies to cast other classes abilities to function at a fundamental level




im ngl, the only difference i can think of is basically just making sure auto attack is on, and your monitor isnt off

Since we are not hearing Ranger Down as nearly as we heard at retail warriors must be doing something right.

[enjchanter]

Since we are not hearing Ranger Down as nearly as we heard at retail warriors must be doing something right.

The warrior probably has the least agency over how frequently they die in the whole equation.

Press defensive
Have good gear
Don't auto attack if you're really low hp?
I mean what else can you do lol

[PatChapp]

The warrior probably has the least agency over how frequently they die in the whole equation.

Press defensive
Have good gear
Don't auto attack if you're really low hp?
I mean what else can you do lol

Mousewheel chug worts

[Gloomlord]

I'm a big proponent of bash being upgraded to cause aggro in a similar fashion to spell stuns. When Dragons of Norrath came out one of the devs did actually say they had intended it to, didn't realise it was broke for years cos they thought people just overlooking shields as an option through ignorance.

That kind of shows how incompetent the devs are then, doesn't it?

It took them until Dragons of Norrath to figure that out?!

[Naethyn]

Forget bash aggro. Monks have block.

[Ennewi]

It's odd that only monks received block, but also that it works against attacks from the front and back. IIRC even in WoW players can only block/parry attacks from the front but in EQ...

Like Dodge, Block allows a character to avoid all damage from a physical attack. However, unlike other defensive skills, block can defend against attacks from behind the character.

If nothing else, war/pal/shd could have received block but with the skill requiring a shield be equipped. A secondary shield would have blocked attacks from the front and a back slot shield attacks from behind. And nothing would have been taken away from monks, since theirs would still be the better version independent of gear.

[Jimjam]

Block represents movie martial arts style block of the weapon with the hands, rather than the parrying, etc that other fighting classes would do with their own weapons.

Sony seem to agree with you though, and did add a way for non-monks to block with shields.

[bcbrown]

That kind of shows how incompetent the devs are then, doesn't it?

It took them until Dragons of Norrath to figure that out?!

IIRC there was something completely broken about Shamans for the first 6-9 months. I think it was Alchemy, maybe it never succeeded or never gave skill-ups. The devs insisted it wasn't broken, because whenever they did their testing, they used dev tools that created mid-level shamans that skipped over whatever mechanism caused the bug. If a single member of the dev team had leveled a shaman up naturally the bug would have been obvious.

Anyone else remember this? I just found a newsgroup post complaining about it: https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.everquest/c/eTn9DwdwPhY
Aside from the potions, Alchemy is broken for the basic reason that you
*can't train* the skill. It's permanently stuck at zero due to a bug (trade
skills can't be trained past 21- and alchemy is obtained at 25, which means
if you could put a point in it, you'd train it past the limit. Ergo, no one
can make the skill go up.) The result is that making any potion except one
is equivalent to trying to make banded with a zero skill- not happening.

[Duik]

A bit late but that sounds like a job for a quest to fix.
Hail Alchemy Dude. Hello young one. Feel like making a potion do we? Give me ItemA + ItemB and you get 25 skill points. (Or whatever lvl it starts at.)

[Xitayasl]

A bit late but that sounds like a job for a quest to fix.
Hail Alchemy Dude. Hello young one. Feel like making a potion do we? Give me ItemA + ItemB and you get 25 skill points. (Or whatever lvl it starts at.)

There's no doubt this needs to be fixed

[cd288]

It's odd that only monks received block, but also that it works against attacks from the front and back. IIRC even in WoW players can only block/parry attacks from the front but in EQ...



If nothing else, war/pal/shd could have received block but with the skill requiring a shield be equipped. A secondary shield would have blocked attacks from the front and a back slot shield attacks from behind. And nothing would have been taken away from monks, since theirs would still be the better version independent of gear.

What do you think an Iksar's tail is for

[Ennewi]

What do you think an Iksar's tail is for

Impressing mates and storing fat? Blocking would also make sense, though that doesn't explain human monks, unless...

https://i.imgur.com/UEVruHZ.gif

[greatdane]

If you frighten an iksar, their tail falls off. Seen it myself.

[Dundrige]

Warriors are very good DPS in addition to being the tankiest of classes I've heard, so they are actually useful. I'm not sure why anyone would find them useless?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not sure why anyone would find them useless?

There are a few reasons:

1. Warriors are one of the worst solo classes in the game, which does limit their usability for some players. I am not saying Warriors can't solo, but most classes do it better, and cheaper.

2. Warriors often need assistance to hold agro. For example: a root class will root the mob, so the Warrior doesn't need to get to the top of the hate list. While this is effective, the Warrior is doing less work in the group compared to a Knight. There are some items like Bio Orb that can offset this issue. A blinded mob will also just attack the nearest player. But blind is riskier due to the mob running away when all the mob's targets are out of melee range. Knights do not need to spend 100k to have a reliable method for getting the mob to attack them.

3. The self sustaining agro of Knights, and their superior ability to pull, is worth the trade-off of lower DPS for most P99 content. This is because dedicated DPS classes typically do enough damage to clear most group content already, and DPS has diminishing returns in a lot of scenarios. This is why you rarely see 6 player groups. The extra DPS the additional group members are providing does not offset the XP loss the group is getting for having 6 players instead of 3-4.

Obviously Warriors are amazing in the situations we use them. Warriors are the best tanks in the game when you need Warrior Discs. When geared with raid items, they can solo well enough too.

[Toxigen]

I'm not sure why anyone would find them useless?

bad players, namely

[DeathsSilkyMist]

bad players, namely

That applies to all classes, it isn't Warrior specific. Understanding the strengths/weaknesses of each class is part of what defines a good player.

Warriors have a number of weaknesses that are harder to offset than other classes. With the right gear, understanding of the class, and good teammates, these weaknesses will be overcome.

A skilled Knight can overcome the same weaknesses of a Warrior in EC gear, and they do not need to rely on having good teammates. Knights are better at tasks like pulling, which enables more low man group compositions. The only thing Knights end up lacking is Warrior Discs, which are only needed on a small percentage of content.

The other thing people forget (due to everybody being well geared these days), is most content wasn't designed around characters with end-game droppable gear (and/or raid gear) at level 30. While a Knight does do less DPS than a Warrior, the average P99 Knight is going to be much better geared than what the developers balanced the content around. P99 Knights are probably doing more damage than a Warrior in the expected gear at level 30 (something like Minotaur Axes and Crafted Armor). This means P99 Knights are pulling their weight DPS-wise when you look at the gear the content was balanced around.

That is the difference in the end. For most P99 content, a Warrior isn't as good as a Knight.

When you are level 60 and have other experienced players farming content with you, the Knight's advantage will wane. Many players do not get to this point, however. A lot of Warriors are alts that get extra DKP thrown at them, and they get stuck somewhere before level 60 forever. This is due to their weaknesses, like not being able to solo well. Any time you can't find a group for your Warrior, you probably aren't going to be leveling them. While a Knight does level slower than a Warrior, the Knight's ability to solo well will often times offset the Warrior's XP per kill advantage.

[enjchanter]

Warrior is just simply a terribly designed class
Unfortunate

[Vexenu]

Warrior is just simply a terribly designed class
Unfortunate

How would you fix Warriors with the fewest changes possible? I've heard people suggest giving them block (at least with a shield equipped), but this would really just enhance them as raid tanks (where they already shine) and do nothing to address their weaknesses in the other aspects of the game (where they underperform).

What makes Warriors feel weak is their almost total reliance on procs to accomplish anything (i.e. agro, healing, CC). So giving them more options in that regard would help them a lot. You could add in a couple of extra special attacks that would share a single timer (like Monk special attacks):

Hamstring - applies a 50% snare lasting 10 seconds on a successful attack
Foot Stomp - applies a root lasting 10 seconds on a successful attack

Then give them another ability called Weapon Attunement, which would basically allow them to guarantee a weapon proc on their next successful attack. Should probably be on a 30 second cooldown.

Finally, throw in an innate ability that allows Warriors to heal themselves double from bandages and allows them to innately bind wound up to 75% regardless of BW skill.

[Jimjam]

The battle bandaging bug fixed them for soloing. Obviously that is no longer a thing.

When Dragons of Norrath expansion came out a dev posted “whoops, bash was meant to generate aggro like spell stun. We now realise it doesn’t, so here is a bunch of new shields designed to fix that”. I reckon fixing bash’s aggro generation would go a long way to fixing warriors for multiplayer uses.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The battle bandaging bug fixed them for soloing. Obviously that is no longer a thing.

When Dragons of Norrath expansion came out a dev posted “whoops, bash was meant to generate aggro like spell stun. We now realise it doesn’t, so here is a bunch of new shields designed to fix that”. I reckon fixing bash’s aggro generation would go a long way to fixing warriors for multiplayer uses.

Agreed. If Warriors had a consistent way to generate hate on the fly, they would be much better in standard group content.

[Snaggles]

Imagine a dps pacing itself and avoiding taking unnecessary hits.
This one wild trick to make healers not hate you…

[Sonark]

Give Warriors the Combat Abilities (I.e. their aggro abilities.) from Live that they give them in TLPs off the hop so they're not completely useless

Bam, you just fixed Warriors on p99 for group content.

That's why they include them off the hop. Because they know they're broken early on due to bad design choices.

[Snaggles]

Every class has its achilles heel. What is broken to some is proper design to others.

Most hps of any class? Check
Best mitigation plus mitigation discs on short cooldown? Check
Aggro issues so they don’t trivialize raid encounters? Check

Also, who cares about group content? Ive probably said it before but grinding exp is easy. Even soloing a warrior to 60 isn’t bad. You group to have fun with others and help classes like warriors. If you need a knight to succeed in the Hole maybe it’s a “you problem”.

[PatChapp]

If warriors held agro like knights,Knights would be even more useless as tanks
I leveled my warrior mostly in groups and agro was rarely a problem
Let the rogue take a couple hits

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, who cares about group content? Ive probably said it before but grinding exp is easy.

Some people do care about group content. People prefer faster leveling experiences to slower leveling experiences generally speaking. Time is the issue, not difficulty. Every class can afk camp an easy single static spawn all the way to 60. That takes much longer time-wise, however. This is why you don't see an overabundance of Rogues trying to solo to 60.

The strengths and weakness of Warriors on P99 will remain as facts, regardless of whether you care about grouping or not.

[spoil]

How would you fix Warriors with the fewest changes possible? I've heard people suggest giving them block (at least with a shield equipped), but this would really just enhance them as raid tanks (where they already shine) and do nothing to address their weaknesses in the other aspects of the game (where they underperform).


On Secrets' playground server warriors get an ability /shield at level 30 that mitigates 50% of the damage to a targeted player (within close range) and transfers like 75% of the damage to the warrior, with a few minute cooldown. I'm not sure what expansion that ability is from, but it adds much-needed depth to the class. It felt satisfying when a quick reaction made the difference in saving an enchanter on a charm break or giving some relief to a cleric who pulls aggro. Almost like playing a good class.

[Snaggles]

Some people do care about group content. People prefer faster leveling experiences to slower leveling experiences generally speaking. Time is the issue, not difficulty. Every class can afk camp an easy single static spawn all the way to 60. That takes much longer time-wise, however. This is why you don't see an overabundance of Rogues trying to solo to 60.

The strengths and weakness of Warriors on P99 will remain as facts, regardless of whether you care about grouping or not.

I didn’t mean literally who cares about group content (ie doing it). I meant, who cares if it’s moderately more difficult. A shaman can drop 66% slow on something in the early 50’s and it scales to 75%. Just slow stuff and kill it, or CC with mez, or split tank, or root, or kite. My point was most group content is very easy, but fun. If people struggle they should practice their own class, not nitpick another to break progression history.

So get some buddies together and kill stuff. Don’t get precious optimizing group dynamics. Also, rogues and monks should have a bit of patience with a warrior tank. It’s not their fault. Slowers can debuff like a belly caster or pre-root. Lots of ways to work with a warrior if people care to try.

[Sonark]

Aggro issues so they don’t trivialize raid encounters? Check...are you serious?

They made them bad at managing aggro so raids won't be as easy.

Is that seriously your position?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn’t mean literally who cares about group content (ie doing it). I meant, who cares if it’s moderately more difficult. A shaman can drop 66% slow on something in the early 50’s and it scales to 75%. Just slow stuff and kill it, or CC with mez, or split tank, or root, or kite. My point was most group content is very easy, but fun. If people struggle they should practice their own class, not nitpick another to break progression history.

So get some buddies together and kill stuff. Don’t get precious optimizing group dynamics. Also, rogues and monks should have a bit of patience with a warrior tank. It’s not their fault. Slowers can debuff like a belly caster or pre-root. Lots of ways to work with a warrior if people care to try.

I agree that you shouldn't prevent Warriors from joining XP groups as a tank. That wasn't what I was suggesting.

I was just explaining why Warriors are considered to be less useful in groups generally speaking. It's good to know why this bias occurs.

When people know what the weaknesses/strengths of a Warrior are, they can determine if their group would be able to handle a Warrior tank.

If you have a lazy random Rogue in your group who can't handle a Warrior tank, you have to choose between:
1. Denying the Warrior.
2. Kicking the Rogue.
3. Invite the Warrior and hope you find a Cleric for reses.
4. Try to teach the Rogue how to play.

All are valid options the group leader will have to decide for themselves based on their own laziness/willingless to handle the situation.

[Snaggles]

...are you serious?

They made them bad at managing aggro so raids won't be as easy.

Is that seriously your position?

They could have made taunt generate 1k aggro a click and didn’t. It’s pretty obvious aggro was a problem since day one.

Sorry the game is too hard.

[Jimjam]

I agree that you shouldn't prevent Warriors from joining XP groups as a tank. That wasn't what I was suggesting.

I was just explaining why Warriors are considered to be less useful in groups generally speaking. It's good to know why this bias occurs.

When people know what the weaknesses/strengths of a Warrior are, they can determine if their group would be able to handle a Warrior tank.

If you have a lazy random Rogue in your group who can't handle a Warrior tank, you have to choose between:
1. Denying the Warrior.
2. Kicking the Rogue.
3. Invite the Warrior and hope you find a Cleric for reses.
4. Try to teach the Rogue how to play.

All are valid options the group leader will have to decide for themselves based on their own laziness/willingless to handle the situation.

Rogues need to take a few hits to cap defensive skills, and they do have good defensive skills, so imo just leave them to it. If they are stretching healer mana the healer can choose not to heal them. People will be careful engaging as their hp lowers :).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Rogues need to take a few hits to cap defensive skills, and they do have good defensive skills, so imo just leave them to it. If they are stretching healer mana the healer can choose not to heal them. People will be careful engaging as their hp lowers :).

Assuming people play well, there is no problem of course. My post is referring to when people are not playing well.

[Samoht]

How would you fix Warriors with the fewest changes possible?

Hate on shield bash.

[Jimjam]

Assuming people play well, there is no problem of course. My post is referring to when people are not playing well.

When they respawn naked in kelethin they’ll have plenty of time to think about what they’ve done as they hitch hike back to velious/kunark!

[enjchanter]

Warrior design is great ! All it requires is everyone else in the group to work extra to make them viable at their role

[Toxigen]

root exists

hope this helps

[Gloomlord]

root exists

hope this helps

Yes, but that just proved his point. Also, root can be resisted, whilst neither a Paladin, Ranger or Shadowknight care if their spells are resisted, because they're still generating hate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, but that just proved his point. Also, root can be resisted, whilst neither a Paladin, Ranger or Shadowknight care if their spells are resisted, because they're still generating hate.

Indeed. While root is obviously effective for Warriors to maintain agro, it is an extra step the group must do for every mob the Warrior is tanking. All hybrids can generate enough agro to remove the need to root the mob, and all hybrids can prevent mobs from running when nullifying mob movement is needed.

Warriors need a Bio Orb (if they want infinite clicks) to get the same effect as root (mob will attack the closest enemy regardless of hate). This is riskier, due to mobs running away when blinded if there are no mobs on their hate list in melee range. Bio Orb is also 100k.

[Naethyn]

Warriors are better in groups that are better. Knights are better in groups that are not better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warriors are better in groups that are better. Knights are better in groups that are not better.

I disagree. Overall Knights are better in groups, unless the content needs Warrior discs. This is regardless of group skill. The above average gear level on P99 means Knights are still doing good DPS compared to the content they are fighting in most cases. Most content isn't balanced around everybody having end game drops and/or ToV raid gear.

High skill groups still make mistakes and/or get resists/early breaks on root. Warriors can't really do much in that scenario other than hope the player highest on the hate list doesn't die.

While it is true high skill players probably won't die, at that point your group is probably skilled enough to not need a tank if you want to go down that line of thinking.

A pro Enchanter can solo most of the content they would be grouping against. In places like Funi King where duoing/trioing is preferred, you aren't using a Warrior. You'll be using a Shadowknight or Monk for pulling/tanking. In low-man group scenarios, having classes that are more flexible like Knights or Monks allow you to do more with less. Again, this is for all content that doesn't need Warrior discs, which is most content on P99.

[Toxigen]

Warriors are better in groups that are better. Knights are better in groups that are not better.

this, 100%

[fortior]

Evasive against blues is basically god mode

[enjchanter]

There must be some secret tech to defeating blue con mobs
They just do so much damage
If only there was a class that could withstand the onslaught

[fortior]

I know your shtick is 'jaded boring guy who only plays enchanter' but for instance seb juggs are way rougher on a knight than on a warrior
The answer is bring a monk if you want a melee, that's not what this thread is about though

[Toxigen]

The answer is bring a monk if you want a melee, that's not what this thread is about though

ding ding

[Troxx]

Warriors are just fine. For the hardest content they are more or less a requirement. For everything else 3 minute evasive on a 7 minute cooldown while doing badass dps is cool too.

[Toxigen]

Warriors are just fine. For the hardest content they are more or less a requirement. For everything else 3 minute evasive on a 7 minute cooldown while doing badass dps is cool too.

welcome back!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warriors are just fine.

Indeed. People should invite Warriors into their groups. They can operate just fine as a tank.

People also need to know what the strengths/weaknesses of Warriors are, so they know what to expect when inviting a Warrior. Unfortunately Warriors do have a number of weaknesses that take more effort to overcome in a group scenario.

Knights are better than Warriors in group content that doesn't require Warrior discs due to their added utility. Same with Monks. It's easier to form low number groups when each class has more functionality, as one player can fill multiple roles.

[Gannun]

Can Shaman be the main tank? Are they arguably better at it than Warriors?

[Naethyn]

Knights are better than Warriors in group content that doesn't require Warrior discs due to their added utility.

Warriors are better than Knights in group content that doesn't require Knight spells due to their added dps.

[Toxigen]

oh shit here we go again dot jpg

[Troxx]

welcome back!

Thanks buddy!

[fortior]

you can keep a warrior up more easily than a knight, and FD/lull aside I don't see the added utility. that warrior better be raid geared though otherwise I'm inviting the monk.


I'm never inviting the knight.

[Troxx]

I always found that knights shine in situations where the group is worse … especially paladins. For a groups that adequately cover all basic necessities and with players who actually know how to play and possess even a mediocre level of talent - the warrior shines.

Problems are gonna occur if you have a group geared warrior paired with raid geared melee … but assuming everyone is comparably geared the warrior should have no problems.

[WarpathEQ]

This thread is useless for 100% of the games content. This is P99, if you're still grouping to get exp you're taking whatever person is willing to stand in front of the mobs and take the hits.