Best trio to self farm gear/dungeons

[trevellyan06]

What's the best trio of classes to do dungeons and self farm gear as you level?

[spoil]

Enchanter and cleric are the necessary components, third spot is flexible.

[trevellyan06]

Could the cleric be replaced with like a shaman?

[Degalian]

Depends on how far u want to go and if it will be self found only.

For Dungeon you need Split/CC, Tank, Heal, Snare and preferably have slow and evac/ports.

Here are some possible Trios:

Dru, Shammi, SK
Dru, Shammi, Monk
Dru, Mage, Mage
Dru, Mage, Sham
Dru, Mage, Bard
Necro, Bard, Shammi
Enc, Cler, SK
Mage, Mage, Mage (3 earth pets works for runners)
Cler, Enc, Enc (rely on root for runners).

If you take every room prepared, you can prolly rush them.
It all depends on what exactly you want to do. For anything apart from high level Dungeons you can always work it out so long as you don't go there too early.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Could the cleric be replaced with like a shaman?

Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is one of the best trios at 60 when the Shaman has Torpor and the Enchanter has all of their spells, if you are planning on doing end game farming.

Before level 60 the Shaman's healing isn't great, so you will need to be more careful. Still shouldn't be a huge deal due to the amount of slows and CC both the Shaman and Enchanter can dish out.

As long as Dial-a-Port is around, having a dedicated Wizard or Druid in a trio for ports is more of a luxury than a necessity.

[spoil]

Could the cleric be replaced with like a shaman?

I wouldn't. Cleric buffs, heals and having that 90% rez available from 50-60 is just too much utility to pass up.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I wouldn't. Cleric buffs, heals and having that 90% rez available from 50-60 is just too much utility to pass up.

It mostly depends on what OP's trio wants to farm, and at what level. If they take a standard leveling path and farm gear after they are a bit over leveled for the content, you really don't need a cleric. Enchanter, Shaman, and Monk can solo to 60 just fine, and when you solo you don't have a cleric.

[Vexenu]

Enchanter/Cleric/Necro

Stupidly powerful and versatile dungeon trio that needs very little gear to boot. Any other answer is wrong.

[Jimjam]

3 enchanters pretending to solo so each enc can sit on a different named and claim camp.

Enchanter, cleric and druid could be cool too. Druid is mainly there to help with logistics for selling unwanted loot, moving camps but also can help woth snare, charm, regen, ds i guess.

Higher level maybe wiz would be better (than druid) just for opening up hate to sell loot rights.

[eqravenprince]

I guess I look at this question different than most. Self farm gear is way more fun with classes that can't solo nakid in my opinion. Just do 3 troll or ogres, one of each class. 2 of the 3 classes will really benefit from each upgrade.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I guess I look at this question different than most. Self farm gear is way more fun with classes that can't solo nakid in my opinion. Just do 3 troll or ogres, one of each class. 2 of the 3 classes will really benefit from each upgrade.

Yeah a big boi group would be fun. SK can pull/tank, with Shaman slowing and Warrior DPSing.

[spoil]

It mostly depends on what OP's trio wants to farm, and at what level. If they take a standard leveling path and farm gear after they are a bit over leveled for the content, you really don't need a cleric. Enchanter, Shaman, and Monk can solo to 60 just fine, and when you solo you don't have a cleric.

That's great but the OP is interested in the "best" trio from 1-60. Obviously you can make anything work, but there's no replacement for a cleric or enchanter if you're aiming for efficiency. Otherwise just play whatever you want and don't worry about what's the best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's great but the OP is interested in the "best" trio from 1-60. Obviously you can make anything work, but there's no replacement for a cleric or enchanter if you're aiming for efficiency. Otherwise just play whatever you want and don't worry about what's the best.

You don't need a cleric for efficent trio leveling 1-60. Downtime is already heavily reduced by having 3 players with most content. Slowing and non-CH heals are more than sufficient.

[spoil]

You don't need a cleric for efficent trio leveling 1-60. Downtime is already heavily reduced by having 3 players with most content. Slowing and non-CH heals are more than sufficient.

Best and sufficient mean different things.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best and sufficient mean different things.

I think you misread "efficient" and "sufficient".

You don't need a cleric for efficent trio leveling 1-60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me break it down in a bit more detail. A lot of people don't think about why CH is efficient, so they just assume it is always better.

A Cleric gets CH at 39, so from 1-38 you don't have it. Therefore, when you talk about clerics being efficient for leveling, you are really talking about leveling from 39-60.

From levels 39-52 roughly speaking, you really aren't healing more than about 1200 HP per cast of CH. This is because your tank (or charmed mob) isn't going to have more than 2k HP, especially on a non-twinked run, and most clerics will CH around 40% life. My 51 Monk with decent twink gear like Fungi, IFS, and Epic only has 1800HP for reference.

At 39 a Shaman can slow for 40% at 125 mana, and heal for 540 with 300 mana. 40% of 1200HP = 480 HP, so for 425 mana a Shaman is mitigating 1020 damage. With the 10 HP/Tick regen the Shaman is providing, that is another 100 damage mitigated per minute. That is very comparable to a cleric in terms of mana to hp from levels 39-52 or so.

CH really starts to shine like 54-60 when the enchanter is starting to charm mobs with 4k HP or more, and your gear/HP buffs are pushing the tank player closer to 3k+ HP. Even then, a Shaman is doing better than you think. At 3k HP CH is typically healing about 1800 HP when you start healing at 40% life. Turgurs insects slows for 66%, so it is mitigating roughly 1200 HP, and Chloroblast is healing 385 HP for 175 HP. So again for 425 mana you are mitigating basically 1600 damage instead of 1800 damage when compared to CH. If you add regen (150HP per minute), the difference is pretty small.

The nice thing about having the Shaman slowing instead of the Enchanter is it saves the Enchanter more mana for CC and pet management. A Shaman being able to cannibalize means they have more mana to play around with than the Enchanter, so you can manage mana usage a bit better for more balanced meditate sessions. You aren't being very efficient if your cleric is always sitting at full mana and your enchanter is running low.

CH is obviously more efficient when you have a tank with 5K+ HP, or are keeping a pet with like 8k+ HP, but that is really an end game scenario, when you can think about getting Torpor for your Shaman, a full spellbook for your Enchanter, etc.

[Absinthium]

I have found a trio of Wizard, Enchanter, and Shaman to be fantastically flexible

[Vivitron]

Let me break it down in a bit more detail. A lot of people don't think about why CH is efficient, so they just assume it is always better.

A Cleric gets CH at 39, so from 1-38 you don't have it. Therefore, when you talk about clerics being efficient for leveling, you are really talking about leveling from 39-60.

From levels 39-52 roughly speaking, you really aren't healing more than about 1200 HP per cast of CH. This is because your tank (or charmed mob) isn't going to have more than 2k HP, especially on a non-twinked run, and most clerics will CH around 40% life. My 51 Monk with decent twink gear like Fungi, IFS, and Epic only has 1800HP for reference.

At 39 a Shaman can slow for 40% at 125 mana, and heal for 540 with 300 mana. 40% of 1200HP = 480 HP, so for 425 mana a Shaman is mitigating 1020 damage. With the 10 HP/Tick regen the Shaman is providing, that is another 100 damage mitigated per minute. That is very comparable to a cleric in terms of mana to hp from levels 39-52 or so.

CH really starts to shine like 54-60 when the enchanter is starting to charm mobs with 4k HP or more, and your gear/HP buffs are pushing the tank player closer to 3k+ HP. Even then, a Shaman is doing better than you think. At 3k HP CH is typically healing about 1800 HP when you start healing at 40% life. Turgurs insects slows for 66%, so it is mitigating roughly 1200 HP, and Chloroblast is healing 385 HP for 175 HP. So again for 425 mana you are mitigating basically 1600 damage instead of 1800 damage when compared to CH. If you add regen (150HP per minute), the difference is pretty small.

The nice thing about having the Shaman slowing instead of the Enchanter is it saves the Enchanter more mana for CC and pet management. A Shaman being able to cannibalize means they have more mana to play around with than the Enchanter, so you can manage mana usage a bit better for more balanced meditate sessions. You aren't being very efficient if your cleric is always sitting at full mana and your enchanter is running low.

CH is obviously more efficient when you have a tank with 5K+ HP, or are keeping a pet with like 8k+ HP, but that is really an end game scenario, when you can think about getting Torpor for your Shaman, a full spellbook for your Enchanter, etc.

I think you are getting 6k unbuffed hp charm pets as a 51ish enchanter, probably hitting 8k unbuffed on your charm pets at 55ish.

[Lampolo]

clr/ench/tank. monk if you need splits, war if you dont need splits. IMO theres not a lot of wiggle room on this. There will be no way to win this argument with words. You have to farm a lot with a few different classes to learn for your self. I would say ench/clr/war overall for better xp tanking and less limits on what you can tank at 60.

[Lampolo]

yah is war/clr/ench and its not up for debate

[DeathsSilkyMist]

clr/ench/tank. monk if you need splits, war if you dont need splits. IMO theres not a lot of wiggle room on this. There will be no way to win this argument with words. You have to farm a lot with a few different classes to learn for your self. I would say ench/clr/war overall for better xp tanking and less limits on what you can tank at 60.

There is wiggle room, that is not the only strong trio. You don't need a Cleric or Warrior as a requirement. Only fixed class is Enchanter due to their unique CC abilities combined with high DPS from charm. As I mentioned above, most people misunderstand how good CH is for most of the leveling process.

There aren't a lot of trio mobs that need Warrior discing. That's basically up to OP in terms of what they want to farm at 60, and if they want to expand their group size endgame.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you are getting 6k unbuffed hp charm pets as a 51ish enchanter, probably hitting 8k unbuffed on your charm pets at 55ish.

It depends on where you fight, and how ballsy your enchanter is. You're getting 4-7k pets at Sebilis ent, depending on the mob. The mob levels there are like 41-50 or so if you include the golems by the exit. The 4k mobs are like the zol knights, the 7k mobs are the golems. I don't think a group of 51s is going to be doing Sebilis ent though, at least not that I have seen. That would be more like mid 50s.

An easier zone in the low 50s would be something like Howling Stones, and North/Basement mobs are generally 4k or less. I think the golems may be 5k.

[Lampolo]

What's the best trio of classes to do dungeons and self farm gear as you level?

Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter is the answer to this question. The weak spot in this trio for what op is asking is the heals. Bringing a sham or weaker tank makes the heals worse. The cleric feels weak while leveling and struggles with mana, a backup healer can be nice for steady pulls. A shaman or druid only as heals will not cut it. The slows and haste will not be an option for the shaman while they are the only healer, this will always be done by the ench. The cleric gets sup heal at 34, sham at 51... Take a look at the hp/ac buffs. Im not going to bother but im sure its a win by quite a lot for the cleric. If we are talking xping on loot camps for appropriate levels like op is asking it is clearly war/clr/ench.

The warrior can run around with a bow chain pulling with this trio. Nothing else can sustain this as well as this trio. If the warrior uses some discretion for pulls there is no down time and the kill rate is unmatchable. Still feels OP without twinking.

[Lampolo]

Enchanter/Cleric/Necro

Stupidly powerful and versatile dungeon trio that needs very little gear to boot. Any other answer is wrong.

The only person happy here is the necro. This would be charity on the clr/ench behalf. It would be unusual for a cler or ench to seek this trio over something else unless it was a guild/friend thing. not sure what your thinking?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter is the answer to this question. The weak spot in this trio for what op is asking is the heals. Bringing a sham or weaker tank makes the heals worse. The cleric feels weak while leveling and struggles with mana, a backup healer can be nice for steady pulls. A shaman or druid only as heals will not cut it. The slows and haste will not be an option for the shaman while they are the only healer, this will always be done by the ench. The cleric gets sup heal at 34, sham at 51... Take a look at the hp/ac buffs. Im not going to bother but im sure its a win by quite a lot for the cleric. If we are talking xping on loot camps for appropriate levels like op is asking it is clearly war/clr/ench.

The warrior can run around with a bow chain pulling with this trio. Nothing else can sustain this as well as this trio. If the warrior uses some discretion for pulls there is no down time and the kill rate is unmatchable. Still feels OP without twinking.

You haven't played enough if you think CH is the only way to efficiently mitigate damage while leveling. This is simply not the only answer, and you can do basic math to prove it.

[Knuckle]

I have found a trio of Wizard, Enchanter, and Shaman to be fantastically flexible

I'd take a druid over a wizard, the extra damage doesnt offset POTG/Regen/DS especially when you are using hasted enchanter pets. Extra oh shit heals way better with a non torpor shaman.

[Absinthium]

I am happy enough to bow out of this conversation, one, I did not keep 'best' in mind, and I did not answer in that vein. Two, I am hardly a "master" of the game, and while I have seen plenty of things work that involved "unwanted" classes, I am happy to admit that there probably is some mystical perfect, mathematical best, and that people who have been playing the game from it's inception, and followed right along to P99 at founding.

[Lampolo]

You haven't played enough if you think CH is the only way to efficiently mitigate damage while leveling. This is simply not the only answer, and you can do basic math to prove it.

You have a tendency to come into arguments with a bunch of technical vagrancies that dont mean anything. We are not talking about ways to efficiently mitigate damage while leveling. We are talking about the best leveling trio for keeping name ph's down while xping. You take your shaman trio into any dungeon for xp and the clearing power will be tiny compared to cleric/ench/war it doesnt matter how much technical nonsense you spew about CH. We do not need an equation. We need to go back to grade 5 logic.

[BigPlays]

I think Cleric and Enchanter are the two where you really cannot replace them. Sure you can use other classes at lower levels that would be more efficient, but when it comes down to 50+, where the real grind begins, you are gonna want that CH and the rez. So I would say 1-49 is debatable but 50+ there is no debate really. As for that third spot, Gotta go with a monk for pulls/splits. Gonna make life a lot easier on the enchanter.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have a tendency to come into arguments with a bunch of technical vagrancies that dont mean anything. We are not talking about ways to efficiently mitigate damage while leveling. We are talking about the best leveling trio for keeping name ph's down while xping. You take your shaman trio into any dungeon for xp and the clearing power will be tiny compared to cleric/ench/war it doesnt matter how much technical nonsense you spew about CH. We do not need an equation. We need to go back to grade 5 logic.

Claiming you are right without evidence is what you are doing. I am sorry, but that means nothing. Here, let me do it "I am right, and you are wrong".

See? Now we are at an impasse. The difference is I can show the math, and you can't. It is grade 5 math as well. I am not sure what you think games are other than a series of mathematical equations with rules. There is no magic here.

[Lampolo]

Claiming you are right without evidence is what you are doing. I am sorry, but that means nothing. Here, let me do it "I am right, and you are wrong".

See? Now we are at an impasse. The difference is I can show the math, and you can't. It is grade 5 math as well. I am not sure what you think games are other than a series of mathematical equations with rules. There is no magic here.

ok lets see the math for how a trio with a shaman can get more xp/pp an hour than a war/clr/ench trio from 1-60. You dont have the math because there is no trio with a shaman that can do this. This is why we dont need the math. but please explain what you are talking about

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ok lets see the math for how a trio with a shaman can get more xp/pp an hour than a war/clr/ench trio from 1-60. You dont have the math because there is no trio with a shaman that can do this. This is why we dont need the math. but please explain what you are talking about

reread this:

Let me break it down in a bit more detail. A lot of people don't think about why CH is efficient, so they just assume it is always better.

A Cleric gets CH at 39, so from 1-38 you don't have it. Therefore, when you talk about clerics being efficient for leveling, you are really talking about leveling from 39-60.

From levels 39-52 roughly speaking, you really aren't healing more than about 1200 HP per cast of CH. This is because your tank (or charmed mob) isn't going to have more than 2k HP, especially on a non-twinked run, and most clerics will CH around 40% life. My 51 Monk with decent twink gear like Fungi, IFS, and Epic only has 1800HP for reference.

At 39 a Shaman can slow for 40% at 125 mana, and heal for 540 with 300 mana. 40% of 1200HP = 480 HP, so for 425 mana a Shaman is mitigating 1020 damage. With the 10 HP/Tick regen the Shaman is providing, that is another 100 damage mitigated per minute. That is very comparable to a cleric in terms of mana to hp from levels 39-52 or so.

CH really starts to shine like 54-60 when the enchanter is starting to charm mobs with 4k HP or more, and your gear/HP buffs are pushing the tank player closer to 3k+ HP. Even then, a Shaman is doing better than you think. At 3k HP CH is typically healing about 1800 HP when you start healing at 40% life. Turgurs insects slows for 66%, so it is mitigating roughly 1200 HP, and Chloroblast is healing 385 HP for 175 HP. So again for 425 mana you are mitigating basically 1600 damage instead of 1800 damage when compared to CH. If you add regen (150HP per minute), the difference is pretty small.

The nice thing about having the Shaman slowing instead of the Enchanter is it saves the Enchanter more mana for CC and pet management. A Shaman being able to cannibalize means they have more mana to play around with than the Enchanter, so you can manage mana usage a bit better for more balanced meditate sessions. You aren't being very efficient if your cleric is always sitting at full mana and your enchanter is running low.

CH is obviously more efficient when you have a tank with 5K+ HP, or are keeping a pet with like 8k+ HP, but that is really an end game scenario, when you can think about getting Torpor for your Shaman, a full spellbook for your Enchanter, etc.

[Lampolo]

Let me break it down in a bit more detail. A lot of people don't think about why CH is efficient, so they just assume it is always better.

A Cleric gets CH at 39, so from 1-38 you don't have it. Therefore, when you talk about clerics being efficient for leveling, you are really talking about leveling from 39-60.

Clerics get all healing spells earlier and some the shaman does not making the cleric more efficient at leveling at all levels.

At 39 a Shaman can slow for 40% at 125 mana, and heal for 540 with 300 mana. 40% of 1200HP = 480 HP, so for 425 mana a Shaman is mitigating 1020 damage. With the 10 HP/Tick regen the Shaman is providing, that is another 100 damage mitigated per minute. That is very comparable to a cleric in terms of mana to hp from levels 39-52 or so.

We are talking about a trio. The slow is already happening without the shaman. You can have slows and complete heal at the same time in a trio. Back to matching shapes and colors for you pal!

The nice thing about having the Shaman slowing instead of the Enchanter is it saves the Enchanter more mana for CC and pet management. A Shaman being able to cannibalize means they have more mana to play around with than the Enchanter, so you can manage mana usage a bit better for more balanced meditate sessions. You aren't being very efficient if your cleric is always sitting at full mana and your enchanter is running low.

The clerics mana is the bottle neck in this trio, not the enchanters. You have no clue what you are talking about.

[Jimjam]

The clerics mana is the bottle neck in this trio, not the enchanters. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Furthermore, speaking of experience levelling to low 50s, a cleric’s CC FAR better supports enchanters CC than a shamans does.

[Toxigen]

If its self-found and no twinking, you're better off with a monk than a war for the 3rd.

I'm still a big, big fan of 3x iksar monk/shaman/necro though! Not as strong as enchanter but synergy all the way and if your group has no interest in playing enc/cleric its a great alternative.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Clerics get all healing spells earlier and some the shaman does not making the cleric more efficient at leveling at all levels.


That may be where some of your assumptions are coming from. P99 does not always require maximum efficiency heals to maximize kills per hour. There are also factors that typically limit max kills per hour, such as respawn timers.


We are talking about a trio. The slow is already happening without the shaman. You can have slows and complete heal at the same time in a trio. Back to matching shapes and colors for you pal!


If you are killing a large number of mobs per hour, and your Enchanter is the one pulling, the Enchanter will not be able to slow every mob. They don't have the mana. Remember, when you are pulling and casting spells you are not meditating. If the mobs are easy enough for the Warrior to face pull multiple at a time, I am not sure why you think the group is going to take enough damage to require a Cleric's higher efficiency heals for maximum kill speed.


The clerics mana is the bottle neck in this trio, not the enchanters. You have no clue what you are talking about.

If the Cleric is the bottleneck, you are relying too much on CH to fix your strategy flaws. An Enchanter is in greater danger of running out of mana when managing a pet, pulling, buffing, and CCing all at the same time. The cleric is spending most of their time meditating with Clarity.

If its self-found and no twinking, you're better off with a monk than a war for the 3rd.

I'm still a big, big fan of 3x iksar monk/shaman/necro though! Not as strong as enchanter but synergy all the way and if your group has no interest in playing enc/cleric its a great alternative.

I agree that sounds like a fun combo!

[BigPlays]

reread this:

I think the problem is that 54-60 takes longer (or as long) as 1-54.

Parameters mean everything too. Are you going to get a 90 or 96% rez every time you die from another player? Or are you gonna raw dog it? Are you assuming this group is going all the way to 60 or are they just playing for fun and want to be most efficient in their use of time?

And in case of death, you could be losing hours if not days of exp. So I think the 90% rez (even the 50%) must factor in as you will most likely eat some deaths. Granted you could pay for a rez, but I think having the rez ready and available is important.

This is all factoring in this group is going 1-60 and not getting bored at 40 and stopping.

I think you need to come up with parameters before you can really have this discussion.

[Lampolo]

If its self-found and no twinking, you're better off with a monk than a war for the 3rd..

Monk would be much harder to heal. This is already the weak spot like I said earlier

[Lampolo]

That may be where some of your assumptions are coming from. P99 does not always require maximum efficiency heals to maximize kills per hour. There are also factors that typically limit max kills per hour, such as respawn timers.
Bringing up spawn timers is another technical vagrancy. Are you bringing it up to sound right to OP or to yourself? Heals mean a lot for xp. Sham needs special playstyle to heal for group. That play style is not optimal for xp regardless of spawn timers.
If you are killing a large number of mobs per hour, and your Enchanter is the one pulling, the Enchanter will not be able to slow every mob. They don't have the mana. Remember, when you are pulling and casting spells you are not meditating. If the mobs are easy enough for the Warrior to face pull multiple at a time, I am not sure why you think the group is going to take enough damage to require a Cleric's higher efficiency heals for maximum kill speed.
Enchanters don’t pull well for xp. Not sure why you brought this up. You need to stop advising people on here. You have probably wasted 1000’s of hours of newbies time on dog shit class selection. [/QUOTE]
If the Cleric is the bottleneck, you are relying too much on CH to fix your strategy flaws. An Enchanter is in greater danger of running out of mana when managing a pet, pulling, buffing, and CCing all at the same time. The cleric is spending most of their time meditating with Clarity.
The enchanters mana comes and goes very quickly. There is nothing you can do about a series of pet breaks. The clerics mana is deep and needs to be protected. Cleric feels very weak until close to 60 if not 60 and having anyone else heal for xp 1-60 would be super slow and boring.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bringing up spawn timers is another technical vagrancy. Are you bringing it up to sound right to OP or to yourself? Heals mean a lot for xp. Sham needs special playstyle to heal for group. That play style is not optimal for xp regardless of spawn timers.


It's not a technical vagrancy at all. If you only have 10 mobs spawning per 30 minutes in your camp, you can only kill 10 mobs per 30 minutes, even if your group is the most min/max composition possible. If a suboptimal group can clear the spawns and recover before the next wave, they are getting the same kills per hour as the min/max group. You cannot make the assumption that you have an endless supply of mobs, or that endless supplies of mobs have zero costs. Pulling mobs from farther away has a cost.


Enchanters don’t pull well for xp. Not sure why you brought this up. You need to stop advising people on here. You have probably wasted 1000’s of hours of newbies time on dog shit class selection.

The enchanters mana comes and goes very quickly. There is nothing you can do about a series of pet breaks. The clerics mana is deep and needs to be protected. Cleric feels very weak until close to 60 if not 60 and having anyone else heal for xp 1-60 would be super slow and boring.

You need to play more, this is simply incorrect. The only thing you got right here is that enchanter mana can go very quickly.

[Lampolo]

It's not a technical vagrancy at all. If you only have 10 mobs spawning per 30 minutes in your camp, you can only kill 10 mobs per 30 minutes, even if your group is the most min/max composition possible. If a suboptimal group can clear the spawns and recover before the next wave, they are getting the same kills per hour as the min/max group. You cannot make the assumption that you have an endless supply of mobs, or that endless supplies of mobs have zero costs. Pulling mobs from farther away has a cost.
So now we are framing OP’s question into something extremely custom so you can still be right?

You need to play more, this is simply incorrect. The only thing you got right here is that enchanter mana can go very quickly.
If all you got is a 58 sk and a 60 sham you have a very limited point of view. I think you need to go play more if you want to take that argument. Again with your custom situation to make your self right. Your talking about an enchanter pulling for xp in the “BEST” trio possible. In what world does the ench pull in the best xp trio possible? The reason your talking about an ench pulling is so there is a situation where he needs someone else to slow so your shaman is now viable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So now we are framing OP’s question into something extremely custom so you can still be right?


No. The entire game has respawn timers. You cannot frame a P99 discussion on trio exp efficiency without respawn timers. You are basically assuming there is no limit on mobs to try and eek out extra performance, even though you can't actually kill mobs that haven't respawned yet. That isn't how P99 works.


If all you got is a 58 sk and a 60 sham you have a very limited point of view. I think you need to go play more if you want to take that argument. Again with your custom situation to make your self right. Your talking about an enchanter pulling for xp in the “BEST” trio possible. In what world does the ench pull in the best xp trio possible? The reason your talking about an ench pulling is so there is a situation where he needs someone else to slow so your shaman is now viable.

The only person who has a limited point of view here is yourself. Nobody is saying Enchanter/Warrior/Cleric is a bad trio. You are making a claim that any trio outside of this is going to be considerably slower, without evidence.

You are assuming that your Warrior is doing all the pulling while your Enchanter/Cleric are medding in camp. In the vast majority of scenarios where you can do that, the mobs are easy enough to where you don't need maximum efficiency heals or Enchanter slows on every mob to maximize kills per hour.

But hey, you could put up a video showing how you trio, so we can do a comparison. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can show some data.

[Lampolo]

No. The entire game has respawn timers. You cannot frame a P99 discussion on trio exp efficiency without respawn timers. You are basically assuming there is no limit on mobs to try and eek out extra performance, even though you can't actually kill mobs that haven't respawned yet. That isn't how P99 works.
Generally, most of the time you can add more mobs to rotation even in a full group. It's a good idea to go to places where you can get a lot of mobs in rotation. Dungeons are great for this. You can get multiple PH's in your xp groups rotation if your puller is focused. This is my advice for you Silky.
The only person who has a limited point of view here is yourself. Nobody is saying Enchanter/Warrior/Cleric is a bad trio. You are making a claim that any trio outside of this is going to be considerably slower, without evidence.
I’m just answering OP’s question. I think its obvious the trio he wants is ench/clr/tank. IMO the war is the best tank for this trio but you could get similar performance with any tank. We are talking best here so its war. Please acknowledge original question. The sham repping the cleric would ruin this trio for xp so I’m not sure why your on about it so much.
You are assuming that your Warrior is doing all the pulling while your Enchanter/Cleric are medding in camp. In the vast majority of scenarios where you can do that, the mobs are easy enough to where you don't need maximum efficiency heals or Enchanter slows on every mob to maximize kills per hour.
But hey, you could put up a video showing how you trio, so we can do a comparison. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can show some data.
In almost all dungeon xp scenarios the warrior can and should be running around keeping as many spawns down as possible. Throughout the journey to 60 some of the mobs should be slowed, most shouldn’t. Mobs come in varying levels and classes.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Generally, most of the time you can add more mobs to rotation even in a full group. It's a good idea to go to places where you can get a lot of mobs in rotation. Dungeons are great for this. You can get multiple PH's in your xp groups rotation if your puller is focused. This is my advice for you Silky.


I am not saying you can't add mobs to a rotation. You are simply ignoring the costs of doing so. It isn't like there are just singular mobs respawning in front of you every 30 seconds.


I’m just answering OP’s question. I think its obvious the trio he wants is ench/clr/tank. IMO the war is the best tank for this trio but you could get similar performance with any tank. We are talking best here so its war. Please acknowledge original question. The sham repping the cleric would ruin this trio for xp so I’m not sure why your on about it so much.


I am acknowledging the original question. I disagree that a Shaman replacement for a Cleric would considerably slow down OP, and you have no data proving Ench/Clr/Tank is miles away from every other trio.


In almost all dungeon xp scenarios the warrior can and should be running around keeping as many spawns down as possible. Throughout the journey to 60 some of the mobs should be slowed, most shouldn’t. Mobs come in varying levels and classes.

If you can do that, the mobs are easy and aren't dealing as too damage, which means your range of acceptable heals is larger (not limited to CH). You aren't going to be face pulling 3 wizards in Sebilis just so your Warrior can get triple nuked for 3k and die lol.

[Lampolo]

Well we could go on and on. Wars dont face pull. Clerics heal better than sham. Ench can slow. So i think I am done here

[Knuckle]

For dungeon gear farming its safe to assume you would want FD, youd want slows, youd want a charmed pet, and youd want heals. You can pretty much Plug and Play Enchanter + Cleric + Monk pre torpor and be able to take the toughest stuff on. Im not 100% sure a shaman could grind the toughest named stuff in a trio the way a cleric could before torpor. And if there is a surefire way to get to the toughest named without FD, might as well run a 2nd enchanter or shaman at that point.

[Vexenu]

For dungeon gear farming its safe to assume you would want FD, youd want slows, youd want a charmed pet, and youd want heals. You can pretty much Plug and Play Enchanter + Cleric + Monk pre torpor and be able to take the toughest stuff on. Im not 100% sure a shaman could grind the toughest named stuff in a trio the way a cleric could before torpor. And if there is a surefire way to get to the toughest named without FD, might as well run a 2nd enchanter or shaman at that point.

You have the right idea, but a Necro fits in much better than a Monk, because in addition to FD you get:



Snare
Screaming Terror for charm breaks
Undead charms
Spot heals to save Cleric mana
Corpse summons
DMF


Ench/Cleric is already such a powerhouse duo they don't really NEED a third wheel. So when you're considering what to throw in (and again, the OP was VERY SPECIFIC in his request for a trio that could farm dungeons for gear while leveling) you want a class that's very good in dungeons and which doesn't need much gear while leveling.

Monk is not a horrible answer, but Necro is much better. Warrior and Shaman are terrible answers from Lampolo and DSM, but what can you expect from retards who just want to fanboy for their respective favorite classes and desperately try to shoehorn them into EVERY hypothetical class discussion thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Monk is not a horrible answer, but Necro is much better. Warrior and Shaman are terrible answers from Lampolo and DSM, but what can you expect from retards who just want to fanboy for their respective favorite classes and desperately try to shoehorn them into EVERY hypothetical class discussion thread.

It is pretty clear you don't know much about this game when you think respawn timers are hypothetical, or that Enchanters are never used for pulling. But not surprising from someone who offers nothing but insults.

What's the best trio of classes to do dungeons and self farm gear as you level?


To OP, don't get fooled by the lazy players who think Clerics are the only healer who can efficiently level a trio to 60. Trios make the leveling experience trivial to begin with, you don't need to min/max to level efficiently. Some people think raiding is how levels 1-60 work apparently. You can easily math out how much HP Complete Heal gives you back, and how much HP a standard player/mob would have in each level range. It isn't like this information is hidden, or hard to figure out.

Worry more about what you want to farm during the level process/endgame, and build your team based on that. Realistically I wouldn't even worry too much about what gear you want to farm while leveling. Just try out the mob, and if the content is too hard, come back in a few levels. Many of the lower level mobs that drop the gear you are looking for can be beaten with a good level advantage. Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is a very powerful combo, and most people who come here spouting nonsense because they have some weird grudge end up saying Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is good in another thread.

[trevellyan06]

I appreciate all the ideas. I think we are gonna try out the iksar shaman/monk/necro. We are also currently playing with a group of 5 and have a cleric/enc/pal/shaman/monk in that group but we can only get everyone together like 1 or 2 days a week for that one. So this will gives us something to play the rest of the time and hopefully be able to farm some things along the way.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate all the ideas. I think we are gonna try out the iksar shaman/monk/necro. We are also currently playing with a group of 5 and have a cleric/enc/pal/shaman/monk in that group but we can only get everyone together like 1 or 2 days a week for that one. So this will gives us something to play the rest of the time and hopefully be able to farm some things along the way.

Yeah that should be a really fun combo! Glad to hear we helped.

[Vexenu]

It is pretty clear you don't know much about this game when you think respawn timers are hypothetical, or that Enchanters are never used for pulling. But not surprising from someone who offers nothing but insults.

Best leveling duo: Ench/Cleric

Best untwinked dungeon soloer (excluding Ench): Necro

Fills the few holes that Ench/Cleric are missing (i.e. snare, FD): Necro

Largely redundant when grouped with Ench/Cleric: Shaman

Winning EQ by ignoring tryhard suggestions and playing an Iksar trio: the OP

Highest levels of autism ever observed on P1999 forums: You

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best leveling duo: Ench/Cleric

Best untwinked dungeon soloer (excluding Ench): Necro

Fills the few holes that Ench/Cleric are missing (i.e. snare, FD): Necro

Largely redundant when grouped with Ench/Cleric: Shaman

Winning EQ by ignoring tryhard suggestions and playing an Iksar trio: the OP

Highest levels of autism ever observed on P1999 forums: You

Nobody thinks you are cool for calling other people autistic, or just saying stuff in an assertive manner. Please keep this in RnF. You aren't capable of being helpful it seems. You should play the game more before just saying things.

I always find it strange when people use the word "redundant" when talking about a Shaman/Enchanter combo. People are happy with running Enchanter/Enchanter, which is pure redundancy, but they are fine with it. It is a great duo. Clearly "redundant" is not a negative term, simply a fuzzy term people think sound good, without actually thinking. Apparently you can't have two DPS classes in a group, because it is "redundant" /sarcasm.

[Absinthium]

I appreciate the fun read here, very informative from the various perspectives

[trevellyan06]

Best leveling duo: Ench/Cleric

Best untwinked dungeon soloer (excluding Ench): Necro

Fills the few holes that Ench/Cleric are missing (i.e. snare, FD): Necro

Largely redundant when grouped with Ench/Cleric: Shaman

Winning EQ by ignoring tryhard suggestions and playing an Iksar trio: the OP

Highest levels of autism ever observed on P1999 forums: You

Lol well I am already playing a cleric in the other group we play in and one of the others is playing an enchanter. There's no sense in playing those 2 classes again. So when someone suggested the 3x iksar group we decided to give it a try. Had we not already been playing those 2 classes we would have most certainly gone with a ench/cleric.

[BigPlays]

Lol well I am already playing a cleric in the other group we play in and one of the others is playing an enchanter. There's no sense in playing those 2 classes again. So when someone suggested the 3x iksar group we decided to give it a try. Had we not already been playing those 2 classes we would have most certainly gone with a ench/cleric.

I think you will be fine with this if you already have a cleric/enchanter for the big crawls. For basic stuff, this trio will pretty much steamroll everything. The biggest problem with this trio is CC and you would only need it if you get a bad split or you get mobs warping through walls and pull a ton of trash. The Shammy is gonna get dirtnapped since the monk and nec can FD.

1-20 in Kurns > Giant Fort and then Dalnir will get you easy to 40. CoM to 50 and 50+ in Seb/Karnors. Would never need to leave Kunark.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you will be fine with this if you already have a cleric/enchanter for the big crawls. For basic stuff, this trio will pretty much steamroll everything. The biggest problem with this trio is CC and you would only need it if you get a bad split or you get mobs warping through walls and pull a ton of trash. The Shammy is gonna get dirtnapped since the monk and nec can FD.

1-20 in Kurns > Giant Fort and then Dalnir will get you easy to 40. CoM to 50 and 50+ in Seb/Karnors. Would never need to leave Kunark.

The Shaman can just gate. Same with a Cleric, Enchanter, etc.

[BigPlays]

The Shaman can just gate. Same with a Cleric, Enchanter, etc.

It can...but not as reliable or as fast as FD.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It can...but not as reliable or as fast as FD.

Both have risks. Gate can collapse or be interrupted, FD can fail or be interrupted (Necro). The point is any class with Gate has a good chance of getting out with Gate. I've done it plenty of times.

Usually you only have a problem when your group has characters without FD or Gate like Warriors. Those classes would need something like a WC cap or Gate Potion to get out.

[Lampolo]

Those classes can just run to the zonline. I've done that many times. Don't need gate or fd pshhhh

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Those classes can just run to the zonline. I've done that many times. Don't need gate or fd pshhhh

You certainly can, unless there's another group in the way and you train them. It's situational based on zone, camp, and player count.

[Seducio]

1. ENC, ENC, CLE - high stress, high reward

2. ENC, NEC or SHA, CLE - less stress, slightly less high reward

3. NEC, SHA, CLE - low stress play, still good rewards

Any of these groups are doing things that solo ENCs and Shamans can't at the highest end.

More important than min maxing is to pick a class that you plan to play for the long haul.

[Mateo]

Mon, sha, enc if you have access to res and corpse summon and planning on going to 60 for torpor.

If not cle, enc, x. X being war or sk. War if you can get corpses. Also, depends if going to level 55+ and raiding. If so, war. A plate tank will just smooth everything out so much better, imo, than alternatives like necro, and allow harder targets to be downed.

[enjchanter]

idk why you would take enc / shm / monk over enc / clr / monk

the shaman offers nothing

[DeathsSilkyMist]

idk why you would take enc / shm / monk over enc / clr / monk

the shaman offers nothing

Shamans can solo content that Enchanters cannot. They are the second best solo class in the game. Put them together with an Enchanter, and you have expanded the amount of content you can do.

Monk is the best solo melee class. It isn't rocket science to combine the three best soloers for their class type (melee, priest, int caster) together to make a powerful team.

You should play with more Shamans, it sounds like you don't understand the class.

[Mateo]

Monk would be much harder to heal. This is already the weak spot like I said earlier

You might be underestimating monk durability on p99. I mained a monk here. I tanked for the vast majority of my way to 60, np. Between their avoidance and mends, they do quite well. Threat will be a bigger problem with epic rogues than survivability. If things get hairy you can always FD. Are they as durable as a plate tank, of course not, but they are not takp monks. When I was looking for tanks for groups on other characters I would look for monks first because the utility and damage they bring outweighed the need for a plate tank almost every time.

[ScottBerta]

Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter

Or

Monk, Cleric, Enchanter.

Why Cleric over Shaman? When a hasted Krup/Ilis Knight breaks your going to need more than torpor to keep the enchanter up..

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter

Or

Monk, Cleric, Enchanter.

Why Cleric over Shaman? When a hasted Krup/Ilis Knight breaks your going to need more than torpor to keep the enchanter up..

Enchanters don't need CH to survive a break. Otherwise they wouldn't be the best solo class in the game:) Shaman can simply slow the mob that broke if you need a quick way to significantly reduce Mob DPS, then you can rehaste the mob when you get control.

With the mob constantly Malosini'ed you are getting less breaks too.

[Jimjam]

I don’t think that post referenced CH but hots/spots/stuns/roots (which in fairness shaman get most of(to a degree)).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think that post referenced CH but hots/spots/stuns/roots (which in fairness shaman get most of(to a degree)).

Torpor is more efficient than Celestial Elixir, and Chloroblast is only slightly less efficient than Remedy. Chloroblast is 175/385 vs Remedy's 175/438, so you're looking at a 50 HP difference. Torpor can tick an extra 300 over CE, so you are generally making up for that 50 HP loss unless you get really unlucky with the server tick. Shamans get root as well, so there really isn't that much difference between a Cleric and a Shaman in a situation where you don't have time to CH.

I can save Enchanters just fine on a bad break. Luckily most 60 Enchanters are good enough on this server to where there's rarely an issue anyway.

You're basically just trading stuns for Slow and Malosini, and you rarely need Cleric stuns or Slows for a bad break.

[Jimjam]

But charm breaks are about frontloading assistance to the enc, not about slow burn efficiency.

[Lampolo]

remedy, divine light and celestial elixir are all better than anything a shaman gets

[Lampolo]

I started a war, cler, ench trio not too long ago. No twinking as none of us have toons on green. We were xping in Sola a lot so I have fresh xping example. We were all lvl 24, static trio, war may have been 23 not sure. We held foreman, pred and singe no problem with about 20+ mobs in rotation on a 18 min timer. Singe is a 28 named. You cannot hold this camp at level 24 with any other trio and kill this many xp mobs on top. An untwinked monk will get destroyed by singe at lvl 24. A shaman as heals will be lucky to have 10 mobs in rotation and singe might not be doable. A necro instead of tank leaves nobody to train the xp.

This example is the same in almost all xp camps in dungeons including seb and hs. A lot of the time there are those level checking mobs/pats. You either need to come in with a real tank or you need to be a few levels higher. Being able to xp train blue mobs on the trio and keep yellow/red names in rotation is only something this trio can do and allows for insane xp/drops for any given level. When mobs start going green you have to move. Being able to kill yellows+ if needed opens up the best xp spots.

[Vivitron]

Shaman can simply slow the mob that broke if you need a quick way to significantly reduce Mob DPS, then you can rehaste the mob when you get control.

You can't just haste to cancel a slow; you have to either wait or dispel. So that's a niche tactic.

IMO the shaman's main advantages for a charm break:
* If there's nobody else holding aggro (duo or whatever), the shaman keeps the target off the enchanter by default (both shaman having slow aggro and shaman's pet possibly holding the mob). You can have a cleric pump aggro, but in my experience we only bother with that for some targets.
* If you have a malosini on a risky pet it could keep stun from being resisted, saving the enchanter. If you're using a conservative pet you basically won't get stun resists.

For the cleric:
* Better hp buffs (underrated in this thread so far imo)
* Rez
* Better stun or spot heal option

[Jimjam]

You can't just haste to cancel a slow; you have to either wait or dispel. So that's a niche tactic.

Could use a lower level short duration slow in theory just to strip haste temporarily but you don’t really see that used in practice.

[Mateo]

As was stated, it rather depends, as all things. Depends on what level ranges you are talking about, how far do you plan to go, do you plan to raid, do you have access to pocket res, corpse, buffs, etc. I don't have the math but shaman canni with torpor and fungi is absurd mana regen, combined with en epic with a dot thats fairly easy to get and a jbb. Basically, a monk doesn't need a CH, and the mana regen of the shaman will allow it to do so much more than the cleric(help slow, buffs, damage, malo) and the monk does more damage than the warrior. About the cleric stuns, I mean what good enchanter needs a cleric stun, when you have two stuns yourself and a rune. Is it nice, sure, but more damage is nicer. Same for cleric hp buffs. Nice, but not needed. The grind consists mostly of damage and regen. The hp buff only matters if you need to CH, because otherwise the shaman is more efficient because of canni. Otherwise, I basically agree, through the leveling process to 60 the sk, cle, enc, are going to have the smoothest ride if you are starting from scratch.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can't just haste to cancel a slow; you have to either wait or dispel. So that's a niche tactic.

I didn't explain it very well. You slow the mob and then dispel after you get control, or use a 3 minute slow and wait. I used the rehaste as a shorthand for dispel, which was confusing. The reality is you rarely need to save a good enchanter with tons of heals, slows, extra stuns, w/e. Its a niche case to begin with, unless your Enchanter is just not very good.

But charm breaks are about frontloading assistance to the enc, not about slow burn efficiency.

You misunderstand. Slow cuts a mobs DPS by 70% instantly. If a mob was doing 100 DPS, now it is doing 30 DPS. An Enchanter with 2000 HP is dying in 20 seconds from 100 DP. At 30 DPS the same Enchanter would need more than a minute to die. It's a huge change. There is no need for Cleric heals on a mob doing 30 DPS at level 60.

remedy, divine light and celestial elixir are all better than anything a shaman gets

Torpor is better than CE, its more mana efficient and can heal for 1500 instead of 1200. Remedy isn't better enough from Chloroblast to matter. Divine Light is more life, but slow can make up for for that loss, and divine light has a longer cast time. CH is the main reason why Clerics are amazing from a healing perspective.

[Vexenu]

I started a war, cler, ench trio not too long ago. No twinking as none of us have toons on green. We were xping in Sola a lot so I have fresh xping example. We were all lvl 24, static trio, war may have been 23 not sure. We held foreman, pred and singe no problem with about 20+ mobs in rotation on a 18 min timer. Singe is a 28 named. You cannot hold this camp at level 24 with any other trio and kill this many xp mobs on top. An untwinked monk will get destroyed by singe at lvl 24. A shaman as heals will be lucky to have 10 mobs in rotation and singe might not be doable. A necro instead of tank leaves nobody to train the xp.

This example is the same in almost all xp camps in dungeons including seb and hs. A lot of the time there are those level checking mobs/pats. You either need to come in with a real tank or you need to be a few levels higher. Being able to xp train blue mobs on the trio and keep yellow/red names in rotation is only something this trio can do and allows for insane xp/drops for any given level. When mobs start going green you have to move. Being able to kill yellows+ if needed opens up the best xp spots.
If you really think you need a tank, an SK will serve infinitely better in this trio, as the benefits of snare and FD in dungeons easily outweigh the Warrior's moderately higher DPS. Or just bring a Necro and get the same snare and FD, plus patch heals, undead charms, mez on charm breaks, off-tank pet, higher DPS, corpse summon and a second rez. And then just let the Enchanter's charmed pet tank, since it will be outperforming a PC tank anyway.

Ench/Cleric/Necro can basically do anything they want with zero risk. CC, charms and heals out the wazoo, very good DPS, pulling tricks galore, four DAs, three gates, and two rezzers. Worst case scenario for any other trio involves a nasty CR at the bottom of a dungeon. Worst case scenario for this trio is summoning corpses, rezzing and trying again ten minutes later.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I started a war, cler, ench trio not too long ago. No twinking as none of us have toons on green. We were xping in Sola a lot so I have fresh xping example. We were all lvl 24, static trio, war may have been 23 not sure. We held foreman, pred and singe no problem with about 20+ mobs in rotation on a 18 min timer. Singe is a 28 named. You cannot hold this camp at level 24 with any other trio and kill this many xp mobs on top. An untwinked monk will get destroyed by singe at lvl 24. A shaman as heals will be lucky to have 10 mobs in rotation and singe might not be doable. A necro instead of tank leaves nobody to train the xp.

This example is the same in almost all xp camps in dungeons including seb and hs. A lot of the time there are those level checking mobs/pats. You either need to come in with a real tank or you need to be a few levels higher. Being able to xp train blue mobs on the trio and keep yellow/red names in rotation is only something this trio can do and allows for insane xp/drops for any given level. When mobs start going green you have to move. Being able to kill yellows+ if needed opens up the best xp spots.

The issue is you are using level 24 characters as an example. Based on how you were talking before I kind of figured as much. I leveled a twinked Monk to 51 a few months ago, so I also have fresh experience. With Fungi and IFS, I was getting 1 level an hour from levels 30-40ish. It was more like 2 hours a level in the 40s. If my Monk can get 1 level an hour by himself with roughly 250 HP/Minute worth of mitigation from Fungi + mend + bind wound, an untwinked trio with an Enchanter pet can do the same. For reference, a Shaman casting 1 Greater Healing a minute is mitigating 270 HP/Minute, and can meditate the mana back within the same minute. When you look at the numbers you realize that you don't need the best possible heals in a lot of cases, especially at lower levels.

I think you just need to get some more levels before you make broad statements. The game changes quite a bit when you need to start fighting mobs that are level 40+. They get a huge boost to HP/AC/Damage, and it changes how you need to approach the game a bit. You can't just do the easy face tank solution that you can do in the lower levels.

[PatChapp]

That 2000hp enchanter would be over 3k with aego.
I'm at 3400 cleric only buffed, aego is a gamechanger

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That 2000hp enchanter would be over 3k with aego.
I'm at 3400 cleric only buffed, aego is a gamechanger

You don't need 3400 HP on a mob doing 30 DPS after being slowed, so it doesn't really matter. Nor do Enchanters need Aego when soloing. It's a nice to have, not a requirement. You aren't doing any new content with Aego. You can do more content with a Shaman though, because there is some content Enchanters can't solo.

[PatChapp]

No,but it drastically increases survivability.
Noone is going to slow my pet fast enough for it to matter,a clerics stun would be much more useful

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No,but it drastically increases survivability.
Noone is going to slow my pet fast enough for it to matter,a clerics stun would be much more useful

I've slowed broken pets just fine when playing with 60 Enchanters before. It's a 3 second cast. It's pretty rare that 60 Enchanters die in my experience when I group with them. If you are dying so fast that you need a 1 second stun instead of a 3 second slow, you are taking like 500 DPS a second lol, and are probably dead anyway. Mobs with that much damage are probably stun immune. If you were low health and without Rune to begin with, either you weren't playing right, or in a bad situation already.

[Lampolo]

The issue is you are using level 24 characters as an example. Based on how you were talking before I kind of figured as much. I leveled a twinked Monk to 51 a few months ago, so I also have fresh experience. With Fungi and IFS, I was getting 1 level an hour from levels 30-40ish. It was more like 2 hours a level in the 40s. If my Monk can get 1 level an hour by himself with roughly 250 HP/Minute worth of mitigation from Fungi + mend + bind wound, an untwinked trio with an Enchanter pet can do the same. For reference, a Shaman casting 1 Greater Healing a minute is mitigating 270 HP/Minute, and can meditate the mana back within the same minute. When you look at the numbers you realize that you don't need the best possible heals in a lot of cases, especially at lower levels.

I think you just need to get some more levels before you make broad statements. The game changes quite a bit when you need to start fighting mobs that are level 40+. They get a huge boost to HP/AC/Damage, and it changes how you need to approach the game a bit. You can't just do the easy face tank solution that you can do in the lower levels.

60 cleric, 60 war, 60 ench, 60 monk, 52 monk and many other alts on blue. I also played live. I am well aware of shamans and their capabilities due to my time on monks. Due to my time on clerics, enchanters and tanks i can tell you sham is overrated and so is sk. Your view point is narrow. You get a better take on some classes and how they fit in when your not playing them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

60 cleric, 60 war, 60 ench, 60 monk, 52 monk and many other alts on blue. I also played live. I am well aware of shamans and their capabilities due to my time on monks. Due to my time on clerics, enchanters and tanks i can tell you sham is overrated and so is sk. Your view point is narrow. You get a better take on some classes and how they fit in when your not playing them.

I think the only person with a narrow experience is yourself, considering you don't have a 60 Shaman and apparently haven't played with them very much. It's ok to be wrong. Leading with a level 24 as an example is questionable to begin with. If you actually have that many level 60 characters, you would know exactly how much healing is needed for most single group encounters, and most single group encounters don't need CH or Divine Light. It just sounds like you haven't been playing as well as you could.

[Lampolo]

This thread is about xp. Level 24 is perfectly relative example. I used this because it was my most recent time spent on p99.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This thread is about xp. Level 24 is perfectly relative example. I used this because it was my most recent time spent on p99.

Then why say Shamans can't keep up with healing? You would know that's not true at level 24. Fungi Tunic by itself can take care of most mitigation and downtime recovery from 1-40 or so, and Shamans can easily heal better than Fungi Tunic. With 3 people your DPS is high enough to reduce damage taken per kill as well.

[Lampolo]

If an enchanter is sending out tells trying to put together a trio for xp, they are not asking shamans unless they are shit out of luck. You would know this but you can't think straight and have never played an enchanter. All your math doesn't matter. You just got KO'd again and your acting like your still in the argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If an enchanter is sending out tells trying to put together a trio for xp, they are not asking shamans unless they are shit out of luck. You would know this but you can't think straight and have never played an enchanter. All your math doesn't matter. You just got KO'd again and your acting like your still in the argument.

You lost the argument. If you don't understand that P99 is a game built on math, you don't know very much about the game, regardless of how many 60s you have.

My guess is you just aren't playing very well, and using Clerics as a crutch to make up for it.

[Lampolo]

If you don't understand that P99 is a game built on math, you don't know very much about the game, regardless of how many 60s you have.for it.

Straw man argument like usual. Try the technical vagrancy next please.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Straw man argument like usual. Try the technical vagrancy next please.

It is not a straw man. I don't think you know what that means.

Computer programs are built on math and rules. You can calculate the average DPS of any given monster and determine how much healing is needed to mitigate the damage.

You making incorrect statements about what you think is a strawman will not change that.

[Lampolo]

Computer programs are built on math and rules. You can calculate the average DPS of any given monster and determine how much healing is needed to mitigate the damage.

Technical vagrancy right on que. Thank you

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Technical vagrancy right on que. Thank you

Either you are trolling, or have a very poor understanding of computers. It doesn't hurt my argument when you make yourself look bad, so it doesn't really matter.

I would advise that you learn how to calculate average DPS, so you can better understand how encounters work in this game, and when certain classes are actually necessary.

[Lampolo]

I suppose that's why you only have one level 60 in a 20+ year old game. Your so busy calculating things you forgot to play. You can't learn how to swim without getting in the water.

I don't think you understand how much work would go into building a model to accurately measure each class and their efficiency in different combinations from 1-60. It is far more efficient to learn by feel. You wouldn't even know how to weigh the variables without experience and simulation. Even with a model it would take tons of trial and error and a real sample to measure your accuracy, which you could never get. You are talking nonsense and you don’t know it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I suppose that's why you only have one level 60 in a 20+ year old game. Your so busy calculating things you forgot to play. You can't learn how to swim without getting in the water.

I don't think you understand how much work would go into building a model to accurately measure each class and their efficiency in different combinations from 1-60. It is far more efficient to learn by feel. You wouldn't even know how to weigh the variables without experience and simulation. Even with a model it would take tons of trial and error and a real sample to measure your accuracy, which you could never get. You are talking nonsense and you don’t know it.

I've played the game for years, and I played it on live from 1999-2005. I have the learning by feel down too. You don't need to play all the classes in the game to understand how the game works, how encounters work, and how other classes work. You are also making a lot of assumptions about what classes I have and haven't played hehe.

You are trying to use the fallacy of argument by authority. Leveling to 60 doesn't mean you've learned a lot about the game. You could have been power leveled to 60 on all those characters while AFKing for all we know. It proves nothing.

You have already shown you don't know what you are talking about if you think Shaman's don't have great damage mitigation. Clerics are obviously better for any of the tougher encounters in the game (6 man group content, raids, etc.), but that is all endgame content.

OP is asking about a trio. Can you trio Xenovorash with a single Cleric and Warrior with only an Enchanter for DPS? Maybe, but it's pretty risky considering you only have 40ish minutes to kill him or you lose your quest progress. The vast majority of trio encounters don't need a Cleric/Warrior, and the ones that do would be safer if you brought an extra friend or two.

[Lampolo]

Anyways its been a fun pass time going back and forth. I am burning time today so thank you DSM.

Would love to see a race to 60 between untwinked war/clr/ench and monk/sham/ench or w/e it is your advocating is the best xp trio. Anything with a shaman in the trio would get smoked if all other things were equal. Splitting mobs and slowing them would destroy your xp. Don't forget to put that in your phone calculator model.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Anyways its been a fun pass time going back and forth. I am burning time today so thank you DSM.

Would love to see a race to 60 between untwinked war/clr/ench and monk/sham/ench or w/e it is your advocating is the best xp trio. Anything with a shaman in the trio would get smoked if all other things were equal. Splitting mobs and slowing them would destroy your xp. Don't forget to put that in your phone calculator model.

Yeah thanks for the time!

You are incorrect about the Shaman trio getting smoked, and it's easy enough to prove with some basic math.

I think the issue here is you are assuming having a monk in the group means you are always splitting. If an encounter is easy enough to face pull multiple mobs with a Warrior, you can simply do the exact same thing with a Monk. The Shaman/Enchanter can just root the adds, and slowing the monster is simply doing what the Cleric is doing: spending mana to mitigate damage.

I am not sure why you think a Cleric/Warrior is going to be considerably faster at this, especially in the lower levels. Any encounter that can be pulled into camp and easily CC'ed is a trivial encounter. With the Monk you have the option to split a harder encounter that you wouldn't be face pulling.

Finally, I never said Cleric/Warrior/Enchanter is a bad trio. It's a great trio. You are the only person here trying to claim that your trio is the only good one for leveling. Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is a very powerful trio at 60 with Torpor and a full Enchanter spellbook. It is still a strong trio while leveling, because most content you would level on from 1-60 is on the easy side anyway.

I wouldn't advise trying to min/max the leveling process, because the point is to get to 60 and farm the good stuff. It mostly comes down to what you want to farm in terms of what classes you want to play. Remember, if you need a Cleric or Warrior for a random fight, you can always just ask your guildies/friends. The trio you play should reflect the content your group wants to do while trioing.

[Lampolo]

My level 24 sola example highlights why the cleric/war combo is better. More, higher level mobs killed per hour. This example is very applicable to the entire game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My level 24 sola example highlights why the cleric/war combo is better. More, higher level mobs killed per hour. This example is very applicable to the entire game.

It really isn't. Leveling from 1-40 is easy on any class. Mobs in the level range of 1-39 are specifically tuned to be easier. There is a reason why a Fungi Tunic by itself can carry a solo player from 1-40. A Shaman can heal better than a Fungi Tunic once they reach level 19, and levels 1-20 are a joke.

Fighting mobs that are level 40+ is a different game from fighting mobs level 1-39. Again, you should know this if you have the feel of the game down as well as you think you do.

[Lampolo]

The gap between cleric heals and shaman heals only grows. Aswell as the gap between tanks

[Lampolo]

I'm not trying to say the shaman is less than top teir class. The trio difference in xp flow is tremendous tho. Most of my playtime has been duos and trios. Plenty have included shamans

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The gap between cleric heals and shaman heals only grows. Aswell as the gap between tanks

Only CH has a significant gap, and you can look at the wiki to confirm this.

Torpor is more efficient than Celestial Elixir. The only downside to it is the snare obviously, but in a Shaman/Enchanter/Monk trio the Shaman will be tanking with Torpor. It isn't like you are letting the monk or the Enchanter pet tank. It is better to have them DPSing behind the mob to maximize damage.

Chloroblast is only 50 HP lower than Remedy for the same mana cost. Divine Light is niche because it basically costs the same amount as a CH. Most of the time you would want to cast a CH over Divine Light, because it is more mana efficient.

Most trio encounters are slowable, which means the Shaman is very efficient at mitigating damage. There is a reason why Shamans are the second best solo class in the game. They can out-mitigate a large chunk of content solo with Torpor/Slow.

Once content starts needing CH and Warrior discs, it is a bit risky to do it with a trio, especially the epic stuff. Better to ask for help than lose progress.

[Lampolo]

Sham cannot substitute a cleric or an ench in this trio. I mean they can just not so great. Just like a cleric can't substitute a sham In a mnk/shm duo. They can but not so great

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sham cannot substitute a cleric or an ench in this trio. I mean they can just not so great. Just like a cleric can't substitute a sham In a mnk/shm duo. They can but not so great

Please show some examples of trio content that requires a Warrior + Cleric, and is not risky to do with just a trio.

[Worry]

60 cleric, 60 war, 60 ench, 60 monk, 52 monk and many other alts on blue. I also played live. I am well aware of shamans and their capabilities due to my time on monks. Due to my time on clerics, enchanters and tanks i can tell you sham is overrated and so is sk. Your view point is narrow. You get a better take on some classes and how they fit in when your not playing them. Shaman is NOT overrated. What the hell?

[Lampolo]

If we are talking "requires" you can get rid of every class in the game. Can probably zerg raid naked with ench tanking with enough practice. This is a discussion on "best" xp trio with self dropped gear.

[Lampolo]

Shaman is NOT overrated. What the hell?

Well I think they are overrated based on the fact I never cared for one unless I was playing a monk. I still say s teir but overrated for most situations

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If we are talking "requires" you can get rid of every class in the game. Can probably zerg raid naked with ench tanking with enough practice. This is a discussion on "best" xp trio with self dropped gear.

That is a nothing answer. You are adamantly claiming Cleric healing efficiency is required for fast xping, but you have provided no evidence for this claim, and you think math plays no factor in this.

Please give some examples of camps that need Clerics over Shamans for fast XPing. Your level 24 example is irrelevant when Fungi Tunic could carry that group just as easily.

[Jimjam]

I didn't explain it very well. You slow the mob and then dispel after you get control, or use a 3 minute slow and wait. I used the rehaste as a shorthand for dispel, which was confusing. The reality is you rarely need to save a good enchanter with tons of heals, slows, extra stuns, w/e. Its a niche case to begin with, unless your Enchanter is just not very good.



You misunderstand. Slow cuts a mobs DPS by 70% instantly. If a mob was doing 100 DPS, now it is doing 30 DPS. An Enchanter with 2000 HP is dying in 20 seconds from 100 DP. At 30 DPS the same Enchanter would need more than a minute to die. It's a huge change. There is no need for Cleric heals on a mob doing 30 DPS at level 60.



Torpor is better than CE, its more mana efficient and can heal for 1500 instead of 1200. Remedy isn't better enough from Chloroblast to matter. Divine Light is more life, but slow can make up for for that loss, and divine light has a longer cast time. CH is the main reason why Clerics are amazing from a healing perspective.

You’re flip flopping on whether immediate impact or efficiency is more important on charm break.

Imo a burst heal, stun or basic root and toeing the mob are often better than slow/dispel. Dispel could end up being equivalent to a nuke for thousands of hp if you’re retaining a buffed pet. If you aren’t retaining pets the slow isn’t ao bad as you can just cc the old pet for being killed and charm a new one.

Enc/shaman better lends itself to a different play style so it is a bit apples/oranges.

Edit: forgot to mention encs are usually pretty keen on active positioning so that is a big red glaf on torpor there.

[Mateo]

You’re flip flopping on whether immediate impact or efficiency is more important on charm break.


None of it is important. Enchanters are gods of EQ classic to POP. You stun the mob, instant refresh gems and recharm it.

[Jimjam]

None of it is important. Enchanters are gods of EQ classic to POP. You stun the mob, instant refresh gems and recharm it.

This is crux to why cleric is better (than shaman - we know many encs prefer solitude to a duo/trio anyway). The chance of resisting both stuns is far smaller than a single one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You’re flip flopping on whether immediate impact or efficiency is more important on charm break.

Imo a burst heal, stun or basic root and toeing the mob are often better than slow/dispel. Dispel could end up being equivalent to a nuke for thousands of hp if you’re retaining a buffed pet. If you aren’t retaining pets the slow isn’t ao bad as you can just cc the old pet for being killed and charm a new one.

Enc/shaman better lends itself to a different play style so it is a bit apples/oranges.

Edit: forgot to mention encs are usually pretty keen on active positioning so that is a big red glaf on torpor there.

I am not sure what you mean by flip flopping. I think you are misreading something, or I wasn't very clear.

The important thing on a charm break is getting it under control. A Shaman can root, heal, and slow to prevent the mob from killing the Enchanter. I am not advocating you immediatly go for the slow hehe. As you say, root works fine a lot of the time, or spot heals + Torpor.

Slow is more of an emergency option, and it is an effective one. If you can wait a minute or two for root to wear off, you can wait for a 3 mimute slow to wear if you don't want to dispel buffs. If your Echanter is good, slow should be rarely needed to begin with.

I've never seen Torpor snare significantly hinder an Enchanter. They don't need to run long distances to handle their pets.

With Malosini you should be getting less charm breaks as well, which reduces the need to do anything.

[Jimjam]

I've never seen Torpor snare significantly hinder an Enchanter. They don't need to run long distances to handle their pets.

I have to defer to your more recent experiences … I’ve not personally duoed a torpor shaman with an enchanter since pop-coa era which is a lifetime ago and a different iteration of eq.

All i have here is second hand xp, external observations and theoryquest.


Regarding roots wearing off I always keep the lowest level root on my bar (and usually at least one longer duration one on top of that). I don’t think you need to be waiting so long for root to fade.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have to defer to your more recent experiences … I’ve not personally duoed a torpor shaman with an enchanter since pop-coa era which is a lifetime ago and a different iteration of eq.

All i have here is second hand xp, external observations and theoryquest.


Regarding roots wearing off I always keep the lowest level root on my bar (and usually at least one longer duration one on top of that). I don’t think you need to be waiting so long for root to fade.

I agree using the short term root is a good strategy. I just think it doesn't matter too much if you have to wait 3 minutes for a slow to fade after a really bad break, which should be rare. This is assuming you don't want to dispel to speed it up.

If you are getting multiple bad breaks per hour that require a slow, the issue is probably with the Enchanter, and your group isn't going to be very efficient anyway. If your Enchanter is good, it isn't like you are going to need to slow on a break multiple times in an hour.

[PatChapp]

This is crux to why cleric is better (than shaman - we know many encs prefer solitude to a duo/trio anyway). The chance of resisting both stuns is far smaller than a single one.

This is it,if I get interrupted or resisted there is a good chance the cleric won't
If I get summoned right after a break il likely have 2 mobs on me,so this is very useful.
With cleric support im much less likely to need to mes my pet,so it's out of the fight for just a few seconds

Enchanter shaman works, but it's a completely different playstyle.
It works if you cycle through pets and have the shaman pulling and slowing. Shaman pulls, roots and slows and keeps mobs lined up for your pet to chew through.
It's good in spots like geos, target rich environments with lots of room.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is it,if I get interrupted or resisted there is a good chance the cleric won't
If I get summoned right after a break il likely have 2 mobs on me,so this is very useful.
With cleric support im much less likely to need to mes my pet,so it's out of the fight for just a few seconds

Enchanter shaman works, but it's a completely different playstyle.
It works if you cycle through pets and have the shaman pulling and slowing. Shaman pulls, roots and slows and keeps mobs lined up for your pet to chew through.
It's good in spots like geos, target rich environments with lots of room.

You don't need to cycle pets with a Shaman. You can keep the same pet just fine.

[Crede]

The answer here is enc/cleric & ogre SK. Can kill basically anything. If there is like one trioable mob out there that requires war disc, just find a war bot for it.

[PatChapp]

You don't need to cycle pets with a shaman, but why wouldn't you.
New pet costs malo,tash,allure and haste. Very mana efficient, I did a lot of this while leveling.
Shaman doesn't get a lot of breaks to canni/med so his mana was usually pretty tight

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't need to cycle pets with a shaman, but why wouldn't you.
New pet costs malo,tash,allure and haste. Very mana efficient, I did a lot of this while leveling.
Shaman doesn't get a lot of breaks to canni/med so his mana was usually pretty tight

Oh I am not saying you can't cycle, I just don't want people to think that is the only way with a Shaman. Whichever strategy works best for the camp is doable with a Shaman.

If someone wants to name some camps that they think a Cleric would be considerably better at we could test it. Obviously any camp that requires a Warrior discing is going to need a Cleric, but there aren't too many of those camps for a trio. You can generally just ask a Warrior and Cleric outside of your trio for help when you are doing epic pieces. It is safer anyway, since you don't want to lose your progress.

[PatChapp]

A cleric is required for dok royals.
Not just for complete heal,but to res the enchanters as they die
A shaman could probably outheal queen damage on the pets once she's slowed,but I don't think torpor would keep up until that point

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A cleric is required for dok royals.
Not just for complete heal,but to res the enchanters as they die
A shaman could probably outheal queen damage on the pets once she's slowed,but I don't think torpor would keep up until that point

Oh sure, Chardok Royals is a camp where you need a Cleric. You can use a Mage as well to do some CoTH shenanigans. That is one of the camps where unless OP wants to farm it endlessly, you can just bring friends when you want to do it. No need to level a Cleric to 60 for that.

I am not saying Cleric/Enchanter/Warrior is a bad trio. I am simply saying Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is a powerful trio that can do all of the normal stuff a trio would want to do, all the way to 60. You can bring Clerics and Warriors for specific content you occasionally want to do. If OP is looking to do some very specific end game farming, the trio he wants to build could change. I would totally agree that Cleric/Enchanter/Warrior would be better if OP just wants to do a lot of Chardok Royals, getting a few more players together to do a lot of Epic stuff, etc. It really just depends on what you want to farm at that point.

[Toxigen]

Cleric is just better because you can keep the ideal pet and not have to worry about healing it up w/ a blur.

[PatChapp]

I wish I had a toon on blue,would be fun to try it with a shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Cleric is just better because you can keep the ideal pet and not have to worry about healing it up w/ a blur.

With a Torpor Shaman your pet doesn't need to take damage, the Shaman can tank the mob with Torpor and Slow. Then your Pet and third party member can poke the mob's butt for more damage.

I wish I had a toon on blue,would be fun to try it with a shaman

Yeah Enchanter/Shaman is a very smooth experience, I like it. As long as there are enough players on both servers, it's not hard to get ports or the rare res.

[Bardp1999]

Monk/Shaman/Necro is my favorite group

[BigPlays]

Cleric is going to come in handy for even 50% Rez. Gonna save a lot of hours in lost experience when you have Rez at your fingertips. While a shaman may be stronger and help clear faster, you are going to die and the Rez is going to make things easier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Cleric is going to come in handy for even 50% Rez. Gonna save a lot of hours in lost experience when you have Rez at your fingertips. While a shaman may be stronger and help clear faster, you are going to die and the Rez is going to make things easier.

Realistically it isn't tough to find a res pretty quickly in most areas. There are exceptions of course, but the population on the server is still quite healthy.

[Toxigen]

With a Torpor Shaman your pet doesn't need to take damage, the Shaman can tank the mob with Torpor and Slow. Then your Pet and third party member can poke the mob's butt for more damage.



Yeah Enchanter/Shaman is a very smooth experience, I like it. As long as there are enough players on both servers, it's not hard to get ports or the rare res.

This whole thing about self farm as you level. Not what classes work at 60 with full spell books.

You're so dense sometimes. Just stop. Its enc + cleric + whatever the 3rd wants to play it doesn't matter.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This whole thing about self farm as you level. Not what classes work at 60 with full spell books.

You're so dense sometimes. Just stop. Its enc + cleric + whatever the 3rd wants to play it doesn't matter.

Im not sure whats difficult about this. You level characters so you can get to 60.

Leveling to 60 is easy with just about any trio, unless you do something silly like 3 rogues.

The only dense idea here is trying to min/max leveling just for the sake of it lol. Whats the point of getting to 60 if you don't like the class, or can't farm the things you want?

I am not saying Ench/Cleric/Whatever is bad or slow. I am countering the idea that other trios without a cleric are going to take a lot longer, or won't be able to get gear while leveling. It sounds like most people on these forums haven't leveled without a Cleric lol.

If OP's trio doesn't make it to 60, that's fine too. Leveling 1-50 is even easier with most trios.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't need to take my word for it either. Just look at the market and the wiki.

Why is Fungi Tunic so popular? One of the reasons is it is the best leveling tool from 1-50 for any class that can use it. That means 150HP/Minute of mitigation is already really good for that level range. A Shaman at level 29 can heal for 270HP/Minute and recover the mana from meditating. With regen you are recovering 320 HP/Minute, which is 2 Fungi Tunics on top of each other. Shamans also have slow for mitigation.

If I can level a twinked monk from 1-50 with a Fungi solo quickly (1 level an hour from 30-40 for example), a lot of trios with bad gear can do the same. Think of the other players as pieces of gear if it helps. An Enchanter with pet is basically a monk with an IFS (or better). A Shaman/Cleric/Druid is like wearing 2 fungi tunics for your tank. The numbers are easy to calculate.

People who have leveled enough characters should know how easy mobs are from 1-50. Past level 50 you will have enough spells and equipment to level from 50-60 just fine. You can pick up a lot of gear you missed once you get to the low 50s if some content was too hard at a lower level.

[Vexenu]

Im not sure whats difficult about this. You level characters so you can get to 60.

Leveling to 60 is easy with just about any trio, unless you do something silly like 3 rogues.

OP's post:

What's the best trio of classes to do dungeons and self farm gear as you level?

He is clearly NOT asking, "What is the absolute most powerful trio at 60?"

He's specifically asking for a trio that can level together effectively and acquire gear from dungeons. Implication: you need three classes that aren't super gear dependent, that operate well indoors and which are strong and capable all the way from 1-60 (meaning NOT backloaded in power like the Shaman class).

He does not give a single, solitary FUCK about your Torpor Shaman fetish, so please stop stroking yourself in this thread as you prattle on endlessly about how powerful Shamans are at 60. Literally everyone knows this. Shamans are an extremely OP class at 60 when geared out with a full spellbook. You don't have to remind anyone of this fact. It's simply not germane to the question at hand, because the OP presented very specific criteria that you are willfully ignoring.

Now please cease your autistic Ogre posting and return to Oggok.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP's post:



He is clearly NOT asking, "What is the absolute most powerful trio at 60?"

He's specifically asking for a trio that can level together effectively and acquire gear from dungeons. Implication: you need three classes that aren't super gear dependent, that operate well indoors and which are strong and capable all the way from 1-60 (meaning NOT backloaded in power like the Shaman class).

He does not give a single, solitary FUCK about your Torpor Shaman fetish, so please stop stroking yourself in this thread as you prattle on endlessly about how powerful Shamans are at 60. Literally everyone knows this. Shamans are an extremely OP class at 60 when geared out with a full spellbook. You don't have to remind anyone of this fact. It's simply not germane to the question at hand, because the OP presented very specific criteria that you are willfully ignoring.

Now please cease your autistic Ogre posting and return to Oggok.

I know exactly what he is asking. The problem is you clearly don't understand the purpose of leveling:) The purpose of leveling is to get to 60 and finish your spellbook, inventory, etc. It's irrelevant if you never finish your character, because the goal remains the same.

It is the dumbest thing in the world to suggest the perfect min/max trio to OP just for the sake of leveling, without considering how your characters will operate when they get to 60, or what you want to do when you hit 60.

It isn't like other people haven't been talking about endgame, so I don't know why you think I am the only one. People rightfully say Cleric is the best healer because of CH. However, CH really only gets good when your closer to level 60, when you have players with 3K+ life or pets with 5K+ life. Before then you're only getting like 1 mana per 3 HP on CH or less. A level 40ish character doesn't have more than 2K life. My level 51 Monk with Epic has 1800 HP. If you understand the numbers, you really can't argue that Clerics are going to be leagues ahead of other healers for the vast majority of the leveling process. CH simply isn't as good on characters with lower max life.

You need to think a little bit more before just rage posting like a silly person. I don't have a Torpor fetish, you have a fetish about me and what you think I think. Even if I did have a Shaman fetish, that doesn't mean I am incorrect. I am not sure what your point is, regardless of whether it's true or not.

Leveling 1-60 is easy with most trios. Period. You don't need to min/max the leveling process to have a great trio that can clear content quickly and efficiently, while farming gear.

[Jimjam]

Mate, the purpose of levelling is to enjoy the level 1-59 content. A benefit of having levelled is you get to enjoy the level 60 content, but that is not necessarily the purpose (certainly not for everyone).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mate, the purpose of levelling is to enjoy the level 1-59 content. A benefit of having levelled is you get to enjoy the level 60 content, but that is not necessarily the purpose (certainly not for everyone).

Precisely. You don't need an Enchanter/Cleric/Whatever to enjoy the leveling process, or do so in an efficient manner. The end goal of leveling is getting to 60, and that will never change. The only real exception to this is if you are making level 52 Naggy/Vox characters, but even that assumes you will never decide to move them out of SolB/Perma. If OP is planning on just having some fun and stopping at level 40, I have no idea why people would think Cleric is leagues ahead. They are stopping a level after you get CH hehe. The game is not going to be challenging to most trios from 1-40, unless you are doing something like 3 rogues.

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/8r650cC.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There are only two types of players. Those who make it to 60, and those who don't.

If you are the type of player who wants to hit 60, you need to think about what your trio will be doing at 60. This includes understanding what each class can do at 60 with a full spellbook and good enough gear.

If you are the type of player who makes a lot of alts and stops at level 55, you don't need to stress about which trio is more efficient. The leveling process from 1-50 is easy for most trios.

You aren't going to be getting enough of a benefit from something like CH at level 50 for you to fret over which healing class you end up picking. A level 50 trio isn't raiding or fighting Epic mobs with Warrior discs. They are XPing and farming lower value items with their max life around 2k.

[Lampolo]

I think silky is having a hard time coming to terms with the fact shaman does not fit into the "best xp trio". I'm OK with this. He just doesn't know and nobody can prove to him otherwise. This feels like trying to convince someone the sky is blue and they prattle on about math and optical illusions and it's actually everything but blue.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think silky is having a hard time coming to terms with the fact shaman does not fit into the "best xp trio". I'm OK with this. He just doesn't know and nobody can prove to him otherwise. This feels like trying to convince someone the sky is blue and they prattle on about math and optical illusions and it's actually everything but blue.

The projection here is painfully obvious. I don't need to come to terms with anything when the math is on my side. You don't need to listen to me, just do the math yourself.

I am simply trying to help people who seem to have spent too much time at level 60 to remember that CH is only as efficient as the max HP of the person/pet you are healing. It's very easy to figure out how efficient CH is on an under geared melee character at level 50 hehe.

[Toxigen]

shaman is best

why? because fuck you, thats why

[Lampolo]

Silky your including slow in your equation. That is incorrect. It is already being done by the enchanter when needed. Can you accept this fact?

[Lampolo]

You would fail math class bad

[DeathsSilkyMist]

shaman is best

why? because fuck you, thats why

It's the second best solo class in the game, only behind an Enchanter. I am not sure when people forgot that on these forums. That isn't just my opinion either, most people agree with this.

Putting the two best solo classes together doesn't seem like much of a controversial opinion, and you can math out the differences between a level 50 Shaman and a level 50 Cleric in terms of damage mitigation.

You have a level 60 raid geared Enchanter yourself, Toxigen. Looks like you are extremely obsessed with Enchanters, because you say they are the best class for this trio. You're opinion is obviously skewed. See? I can do the same thing:) It is a really bad attempt to discredit someone simply because they have a level 60 character on a 13 year old server that is extremely level 60 heavy.

Silky your including slow in your equation. That is incorrect. It is already being done by the enchanter when needed. Can you accept this fact?

You forget that Slow costs mana, and takes up a spell slot. A Shaman can slow instead, which saves the Enchanter time, mana, and a spell slot. A Shaman can cannibalize too, so they have a bigger mana pool to play with. This really isn't difficult to understand. If your Enchanter is meditating often because they are doing all the work, your group isn't very efficient. There is a problem when your Enchanter is OOM and your Cleric is FM.

[Lampolo]

Either you answer my question or you are troll

[Lampolo]

Or you have lost the argument

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Either you answer my question or you are troll

I did answer your question in my previous post. I'll repost:

You forget that Slow costs mana, and takes up a spell slot. A Shaman can slow instead, which saves the Enchanter time, mana, and a spell slot. A Shaman can cannibalize too, so they have a bigger mana pool to play with. This really isn't difficult to understand. If your Enchanter is meditating often because they are doing all the work, your group isn't very efficient. There is a problem when your Enchanter is OOM and your Cleric is FM.

[Lampolo]

Saying the shaman can slow is not a logical argument. We alrdy know this. Having two showing classes is a waste of space in this trio. Having a free spell slot and extra mana for the enchanter does not equal more xp/hr. The enchanter can alrdy do their job in full without your help

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Saying the shaman can slow is not a logical argument. We alrdy know this. Having two showing classes is a waste of space in this trio. Having a free spell slot and extra mana for the enchanter does not equal more xp/hr. The enchanter can alrdy do their job in full without your help

You simply saying something isn't a logical argument... isn't a logical argument:)

Under your logic the cleric is a waste of space because they share lulls/roots/stuns with the Enchanter. I guess you can't have two classes with similar spells lol. /sarcasm

If you have ever played an enchanter, you would know they are one of those classes that needs every spell slot they can get. They are also spending quite a bit of mana if they are actively playing.

And yes, an Enchanter can solo efficiently without a Cleric or a Shaman. That helps prove my point!

[Lampolo]

OK then let's go with your logic. We might as well have 2 tanks cause then they can mitigate more dmg. Your arguments only make sense to you or a new player. This is why I say stop giving advice. You can't make sense of anything

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OK then let's go with your logic. We might as well have 2 tanks cause then they can mitigate more dmg. Your arguments only make sense to you or a new player. This is why I say stop giving advice. You can't make sense of anything

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that having two classes with slow is equal to having two tanks. You are really shooting yourself in the foot here.

You do know that people run trios with 2 Enchanters, right? That is literally a complete duplication of all spells (including slows!), but it still works great. Are you going to say that a trio with 2 Enchanters is bad? With your logic it is bad, because there are two classes with slow in the same trio.

[Lampolo]

Who said a trio with two showers is bad? You doing strawman again?

[Lampolo]

It's not best xp trio moron. That's what I said

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Who said a trio with two showers is bad? You doing strawman again?

You did:

Having two showing classes is a waste of space in this trio.

That is a pretty clear statement, and includes 2 Enchanters. They both have slow. Would you like to clarify?

[Lampolo]

Do you drool?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you drool?

Thank you for admitting defeat. Please try again when you have a more salient argument than "two 'showing' classes are bad in a trio".

[Lampolo]

Sorry enchanters don't need shamans to slow. Hope you can recover some day

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry enchanters don't need shamans to slow. Hope you can recover some day

Enchanters don't need Clerics to heal either. You can simply break the pet and let it heal out of combat, then recharm.

The question isn't "do you need a Shaman to slow?". The question is "can you be more efficient at killing mobs by sharing duties?". The answer to that question is yes.

Healing a charmed pet is simply a faster way of healing the pet than breaking and recharming. You are asking the Cleric to do that duty so the Enchanter doesn't have to.

Having the Shaman slow is simply doing the exact same thing the Cleric is doing: spending time and mana to mitigate damage so the Enchanter doesn't have to.

[Lampolo]

Trust me you don't know what the question is

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trust me you don't know what the question is

Thank you for admitting defeat. You cannot rebut any of my arguments, and must resort to insults to try and save face. This will be my last response to you until you can provide a better argument.

[Lampolo]

Enchanters don't need Clerics to heal either. You can simply break the pet and let it heal, then recharm.

The question isn't "do you need a Shaman to slow?". The question is "can you be more efficient by sharing duties?". The answer to that question is yes.

Healing a charmed pet is simply a faster way of healing the pet than breaking and rechamring.

Having the Shaman slow is simply doing the exact same thing a Cleric is doing: spending time and mana to mitigate damage instead of the Enchanter.

Thank you for admitting defeat

[BigPlays]

Regarding rez, I personally rather have Rez on hand then wait for a cleric to come to where you are and spend 500 pp of pp that could go to gear. Losing exp at say lv 57 is not fun

[Snaggles]

Yea in the game of risk v reward having 96% or even 90% rezzes on tap is very helpful. An enchanter and shaman toolkits have enough overlap that unless you absolutely need malo a cleric is simply better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea in the game of risk v reward having 96% or even 90% rezzes on tap is very helpful. An enchanter and shaman toolkits have enough overlap that unless you absolutely need malo a cleric is simply better.

It really just depends on how much you die. If your group isn't very good, a Cleric can be a good crutch for sure. An experienced group is going to die from time to time, but not often enough for it to be a necessity.

Your group can also level a pocket cleric and a low level rogue if they are concerned, you don't need a cleric constantly in group just for a res.

[Jimjam]

Deffo if you are good and experienced you won't die so often.

However, if I were doing a self farm gear / dungeons trio, I'd deffo do a lot of stuff that pushed the limits of my equipment, experience and talents as I'd enjoy the challenging aspect to it as well as doing content I may have previously overlooked or skipped.

As such I'd expect to go on many adventures that would be likely to involve a lot of dying. Of course, there would be the option to just pile up the corpses and get them rezzed after 2 hours even without a cleric/paladin/nec to hand.

[BigPlays]

Gonna be spending a lot of time in guk for gear especially on a reset. Cleric is gonna do big things other than healing there. Plus even if you are experienced, bad pulls or bad pathing happen more often than you think. Unless you have a monk pulling it’s gonna be tough. Still gonna go with cleric chanter and monk

[Jimjam]

Safehall bound cleric?

[Toxigen]

Its still cleric / chanter / monk no matter how many pages DSM argues for shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Its still cleric / chanter / monk no matter how many pages DSM argues for shaman.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3613637&postcount=8

Eh. Typically if you're getting a port, it will come w/ SoW too. Unfortunately EQ is going to be more about mastering 1 camp / dungeon at a time and then moving on to the next after a few (or many) levels.

SoW potions are a cheap way to have access to movement speed buffs as well.

While not quite as strong, another composition that would work extremely well would be an all iksar SK / Monk / Shaman / Necro.

You get to start in the same area right at character creation, fantastic 1-20 leveling between Field of Bone and Kurns, amazing synergy between all those classes, 3x Feign Deaths / the shaman can gate when shit hits the fan, shaman SoW, and later on the necro can bring amazing damage charming undead. Did I mention Iksar master race?

Its just played a bit differently....but would be FAR more forgiving for completely untwinked and inexperienced players. As long as the shaman continues to play, anyone else could quit and the group would still perfectly capable.

Just food for thought. I always wanted to do an untwinked static sham / necro / monk trio.

You know what I am referring to with a Shaman, and agree they synergize well. I am not sure what content you think requires a Cleric.

[Crawdad]

What's the best trio of classes to do dungeons and self farm gear as you level?

Anybody who says something besides Cleric/Ench/Monk or Cleric/Ench/SK is trying to be provocative or is pushing an agenda.


Or they want you to have fun. Have fun instead, its a 24 year old game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Anybody who says something besides Cleric/Ench/Monk or Cleric/Ench/SK is trying to be provocative or is pushing an agenda.


Or they want you to have fun. Have fun instead, its a 24 year old game.

It is not provocative to say you don't need a Cleric in a trio to level efficiently, as it is true.

Also, have fun and don't think you need to play a Cleric:) Shaman/Enchanter/Monk or Shaman/Enchanter/SK is a very powerful trio.

[Jimjam]

I started with an enc / druid / sk trio and honestly the sk was an xp sponge dead weight.

[BigPlays]

I would argue that enc/clr/monk is a fun group. It is also the most efficient at doing everything. If you want to race to 60 just play bard and anything else and get to 60 in a few days and steamroll all content.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would argue that enc/clr/monk is a fun group. It is also the most efficient at doing everything. If you want to race to 60 just play bard and anything else and get to 60 in a few days and steamroll all content.

Cleric is a great class, and that is a great combo. I am simply saying it is not your only option for healer, both during the leveling process and at 60. Cleric is not required for an efficient leveling process.

People usually assume Cleric is going to be the best due to CH, but until you are above level 50, your parties max HP and your Enchanter pet's max HP is going to be around 2K or less, so it isn't that much more efficient than a Shaman's heals + regen + slows.

[Toxigen]

Greater Healing is 2 hp for 1 mana.

As soon as CH starts landing for 1k you're already way ahead.

Thats like early CoM mobs...think they got like 1.5-2k.

Whats the /played time 1-50 compared to 50-60?

Most enchanters want to torch and haste an ideal pet to keep...maybe even throw it some -MR gear. Sure, you can break charm, mez / blur, and heal it...but that takes time away from not killing moar merbs.

The CH is king pretty much right at level 39, if not very shortly thereafter.

Yes, an enchanter can level with a shaman, and it would be fine...but you're not keeping up with the same enchanter playing with a cleric instead. Not even close.

[BigPlays]

Cleric is a great class, and that is a great combo. I am simply saying it is not your only option for healer, both during the leveling process and at 60. Cleric is not required for an efficient leveling process.

People usually assume Cleric is going to be the best due to CH, but until you are above level 50, your parties max HP and your Enchanter pet's max HP is going to be around 2K or less, so it isn't that much more efficient than a Shaman's heals + regen + slows.

CH aside I think having a 90or 96% Rez on tap is going to save time. Regardless of how good plays are, pathing and other stuff will happen that may wipe a group. Sure you can pay 500 per character for a Rez or just Rez right away and save time and money. A shaman would also be efficient but CH and Rez are just too good to pass up

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Greater Healing is 2 hp for 1 mana.

As soon as CH starts landing for 1k you're already way ahead.

Thats like early CoM mobs...think they got like 1.5-2k.

Whats the /played time 1-50 compared to 50-60?

Most enchanters want to torch and haste an ideal pet to keep...maybe even throw it some -MR gear. Sure, you can break charm, mez / blur, and heal it...but that takes time away from not killing moar merbs.

The CH is king pretty much right at level 39, if not very shortly thereafter.

Yes, an enchanter can level with a shaman, and it would be fine...but you're not keeping up with the same enchanter playing with a cleric instead. Not even close.

You're not taking into account Slow, Regen, and a larger mana pool with cannibalize. Having the Enchanter not need to slow saves time/mana since they cannot cannibalize to regain mana, and slow is reducing how much HP you need to heal.

[Toxigen]

You're not taking into account Slow, Regen, and a larger mana pool with cannibalize. Having the Enchanter not need to slow saves time/mana since they cannot cannibalize to regain mana, and slow is reducing how much HP you need to heal.

you're not going to rely on regen for pets nor the enchanter - you want the enc topped up asap in case of another charm break

enchanter can easily "downrank" their slow and even up their mana with the cleric if need be

what the fuck is this about canni? moot

weak/shitty argument, next

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you're not going to rely on regen for pets nor the enchanter - you want the enc topped up asap in case of another charm break

enchanter can easily "downrank" their slow and even up their mana with the cleric if need be

what the fuck is this about canni? moot

weak/shitty argument, next

I guess you don't understand more mana = more heals, slows, etc. That is why canni helps.

Shaman slows are better than Enchanter slows. Shamans have a higher % slow for each rank of slow. They also get Drowsy, which is cheaper than the lowest enchanter slow if you want to save mana that way.

Enchanter not slowing = more mana for other things.

This is pretty simple stuff.

Malo from Shaman also means less charm breaks, so more time killing.

[Toxigen]

lol

[Jimjam]

I wanna see vids of an enc duoing or trioing with dsm (or another shaman).

It’s interesting seeing all this theoryquest on the combo but I don't remember ever seeing it out in the field.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I wanna see vids of an enc duoing or trioing with dsm (or another shaman).

It’s interesting seeing all this theoryquest on the combo but I don't remember ever seeing it out in the field.

I've done it quite a few times. It works great. People don't seem to realize that when you are in a group of 3 players, the vast majority of content you want to go after is not going to out-damage Slow + Torpor. The content that does usually needs a Warrior discing. You don't need to CH the pet when the Shaman is tanking.

Before 60 the leveling experience isn't difficult enough to require CH for efficiency.

lol

As per usual, no actual rebuttal:)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me put it another way. Looking at my parses, my 51 Monk took 1200 damage from fighting a level 42 guard. My Monk has 1800 HP, so that would have been CH'ed. That means CH is a 3 to 1 mana ratio in this scenario.

With https://wiki.project1999.com/Tagar%27s_Insects , a 51 Shaman is slowing for around 45% at 125 mana. That reduces the 1200 damage to 660 damage. If you spend 250 mana on Superior Healing, that reduces the total damage take to 136. At level 52 with Regrowth, that 136 is reduced to zero if the fight lasted a minute.

For 395 mana (including 20 mana a minute for Regrowth) the Shaman mitigated the same damage as the CH. CH costs 400 mana.

[Jimjam]

Thats good but ngl getting the same heal effect and more ripostes for a single click is probably preferable.

On monk/priest synergy (in self geared trio) which priest is giving more hp/ac to enhance mend/cheal efficiency/mitigation at 50ish?

Lets say monk doesn’t have stave of shielding yet cos self geared.

[Toxigen]

DSM's autism knows no bounds.

[Vexenu]

DSM cannot accept that fact that it takes a level 60 Shaman with raid gear and 200k+ worth of spells to be as effective an Enchanter duo partner as a naked level 39 Cleric with vendor spells.

But it is wot it is, m8.

Another uppity Shaman hopelessly mogged by a Cleric. Many such cases.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM cannot accept that fact that it takes a level 60 Shaman with raid gear and 200k+ worth of spells to be as effective an Enchanter duo partner as a naked level 39 Cleric with vendor spells.

But it is wot it is, m8.

Another uppity Shaman hopelessly mogged by a Cleric. Many such cases.

The only thing people seem to be unable to accept is min/maxing the leveling process just for the sake of it is pointless. Why level a Cleric to 60 if you don't want to play it, or your group can't do the camps they want at 60?

If you want an effective group that you have fun playing, you need to think about what your characters are doing at 60.

If you are the type of player who never gets to 60, don't worry about efficient group comps. The game is going to be easy with most trios during the leveling process, unless you are doing something like 3 rogues.

You can get to level 40 just fine with a Druid/Necro/Mage trio, and a lot of other combinations.

[Vivitron]

DSM cannot accept that fact that it takes a level 60 Shaman with raid gear and 200k+ worth of spells to be as effective an Enchanter duo partner as a naked level 39 Cleric with vendor spells.

50kish for torpor just doesn't seem like such a huge investment that it would influence class choice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

50kish for torpor just doesn't seem like such a huge investment that it would influence class choice.

Agreed. It isn't like an Enchanter's spellbook is cheap. Your paying like 30k for Dicate, Visions of Grandeur, and Bedlam, for example.

[BigPlays]

The only thing people seem to be unable to accept is min/maxing the leveling process just for the sake of it is pointless. Why level a Cleric to 60 if you don't want to play it, or your group can't do the camps they want at 60?

If you want an effective group that you have fun playing, you need to think about what your characters are doing at 60.

If you are the type of player who never gets to 60, don't worry about efficient group comps. The game is going to be easy with most trios during the leveling process, unless you are doing something like 3 rogues.

You can get to level 40 just fine with a Druid/Necro/Mage trio, and a lot of other combinations.

Agreed if OP was asking best but most fun or just most fun trio to play. The issue with this discussion is there are too many variables to take into consideration. We assume they will never die, are the best at playing each class etc. I mean if you want the best trio to 60, you will not beat a swarm kiting bard. You can have 3 bards swarming or a bard swarming and two druids quadding. But I assume they want to play the game legit with the three best classes who can do all content with minimal gear. I cannot see that being anything but enchanter, cleric and monk

[Jimjam]

Monk is gonna be stuck with fists for like 15 levels and then ibc for like another 30 until wqs.

While these weapons are okay for self found, they really don’t hold a candle to even light twink gear or self found casters.

[Toxigen]

The title of the thread is "best trio for self farm gear."

That means this trio wants to go into dungeons and camp their own gear as they level. They aren't twinked and they aren't shopping in EC for items. This isn't "what trio is best for farming at 60."

The answer is enchanter, cleric, monk. Having the ability to rez starting at 29 is massive for this specific setup/ruleset as deaths are an inevitability.

I will say all iksar shaman/monk/necro would also be good for this. Double FD, double gate, corpse summons / rezzes later on. And since post #3 of this thread is the OP asking if the cleric can be subbed for the shaman, I would probably steer his group towards this setup.

Not nearly as strong in the later stages as clr/enc/monk but a better option if nobody among the trio is capable of piloting a severely under-geared enchanter.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The title of the thread is "best trio for self farm gear."

That means this trio wants to go into dungeons and camp their own gear as they level. They aren't twinked and they aren't shopping in EC for items. This isn't "what trio is best for farming at 60."

The answer is enchanter, cleric, monk. Having the ability to rez starting at 29 is massive for this specific setup/ruleset as deaths are an inevitability.

I will say all iksar shaman/monk/necro would also be good for this. Double FD, double gate, corpse summons / rezzes later on. And since post #3 of this thread is the OP asking if the cleric can be subbed for the shaman, I would probably steer his group towards this setup.

Not nearly as strong in the later stages as clr/enc/monk but a better option if nobody among the trio is capable of piloting a severely under-geared enchanter.

Again, if you understand why Shaman/Monk/Necro is good, you understand why Shaman/Monk/Enchanter is good. You don't need a Cleric while leveling, and their mitigation isn't going to be vastly superior until you get to the endgame. Dying isn't a big deal from 1-50, you can quickly make the XP back.

An undergeared trio is going to kill things lower level than them to make up for the lack of gear. There is no reason to try and tell them they have to camp frenzy in guk when he cons white or yellow to the party. It is nonsense.

[Jimjam]

The title of the thread is "best trio for self farm gear."

That means this trio wants to go into dungeons and camp their own gear as they level. They aren't twinked and they aren't shopping in EC for items. This isn't "what trio is best for farming at 60."

The answer is enchanter, cleric, monk. Having the ability to rez starting at 29 is massive for this specific setup/ruleset as deaths are an inevitability.

I will say all iksar shaman/monk/necro would also be good for this. Double FD, double gate, corpse summons / rezzes later on. And since post #3 of this thread is the OP asking if the cleric can be subbed for the shaman, I would probably steer his group towards this setup.

Not nearly as strong in the later stages as clr/enc/monk but a better option if nobody among the trio is capable of piloting a severely under-geared enchanter.
Shaman/monk/nec has bone chips for days on their doorstep as well as iksar berserker club for the shaman/monk. Loads of interesting options 20+ too. Eventually dalnir and kaeaora for some self gearing. I think they may start to struggle in the 50s for decent self gear on the monk?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman/monk/nec has bone chips for days on their doorstep as well as iksar berserker club for the shaman/monk. Loads of interesting options 20+ too. Eventually dalnir and kaeaora for some self gearing. I think they may start to struggle in the 50s for decent self gear on the monk?

If you are in Kunark Monks are well off in terms of droppable weapons. Just go to CoM and get https://wiki.project1999.com/Wu%27s_Quivering_Staff .

You can upgrade to an https://wiki.project1999.com/Imbued_Fighters_Staff once your group can do Seb.

Armor-wise there aren't a ton of options for Monks, so they will be suffering a bit more in that department. If your group is brave enough, you can farm the https://wiki.project1999.com/Crescent_Armor_Set in Dalnir.

[Jimjam]

Yeah, WQS is great. That is 40s attainable. I’m more talking velious content worthy AC / hp gears

No fire wedding rings without enc if strict.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, WQS is great. That is 40s attainable. I’m more talking velious content worthy AC / hp gears

No fire wedding rings without enc if strict.

True, you won't have the standard 160-200HP from rings and earrings.

You could make a stop in lguk for 2x Adamantite Bands. The -10MR sucks, but you can take them off when fighting casters.

[Jimjam]

-10 MR worth it just for the hilarious stories getting charmed bound to generate.

[Vexenu]

1) The Shaman/Necro/Monk trio is severely crippled in the long run without an Enchanter if they're focusing on dungeons. Untwinked/self-found Monk will be dying left and right while trying to split casters. No Cleric to rez, either! No bueno. It's a very workable trio, to be sure, but not ideal for this specific scenario.
2) Monks are obviously not a terrible choice to level untwinked, but absolutely pale in comparison to the capability of an untwinked Necro.
3) Ench/Cleric/Nec shits all over any other trio in in terms of a power curve for this scenario. They start strong, even with no gear, and remain strong all the way to 60. Further, they have ALL the tools they need to operate very safely in dungeons. Tons of DPS, CC out the wazoo, loads of healing, multiple rezzes, snare, FD. No other trio comes close to what Ench/Cler/Nec brings to the table.

[Lampolo]

Mana check?

[BigPlays]

1) The Shaman/Necro/Monk trio is severely crippled in the long run without an Enchanter if they're focusing on dungeons. Untwinked/self-found Monk will be dying left and right while trying to split casters. No Cleric to rez, either! No bueno. It's a very workable trio, to be sure, but not ideal for this specific scenario.
2) Monks are obviously not a terrible choice to level untwinked, but absolutely pale in comparison to the capability of an untwinked Necro.
3) Ench/Cleric/Nec shits all over any other trio in in terms of a power curve for this scenario. They start strong, even with no gear, and remain strong all the way to 60. Further, they have ALL the tools they need to operate very safely in dungeons. Tons of DPS, CC out the wazoo, loads of healing, multiple rezzes, snare, FD. No other trio comes close to what Ench/Cler/Nec brings to the table.

Necro fd pulling is gonna have a hard time

[Lampolo]

It would be slow as fuck xp without a real puller/tank. only a necro would take this line of thought. dudes trippin

[Raj]

Necro fd pulling is gonna have a hard time

It would be slow as fuck xp without a real puller/tank. only a necro would take this line of thought. dudes trippin

What are they going to be regularly pulling that can't be pacified?

[Seducio]

It would be slow as fuck xp without a real puller/tank. only a necro would take this line of thought. dudes trippin

Any group with an Enchanter doesn't need a tank. They just take up space, require too much heals, and slow the group down.

Btw I love me my tanks. I just understand the meta.

[Lampolo]

Trying to make a point on the internet always works out well. I'm glad evyone understands how hilarious it is to have 3 classes that need to med being called best xp trio.

Can you explain how the necro trio can match the pace of war/clr/ench. I want to know

[Lampolo]

Most of my time on p99 has been in duo's and trios. If you have played a cleric or an ench youll know that for almost all xp grinds splitting with fd is a waste of time. From the cleric and ench point of view the best third man is always a tank for xp.

[Seducio]

Do you even play on p99?

Best 3rd is a ENC

[Lampolo]

No it's ench ench ench

[Seducio]

From the cleric and ench point of view the best third man is always a tank for xp.

Why did you write this then?

Sunk Cost Fallacy my guy

[Lampolo]

Someone needs to train the cleric and ench for hours at a time. The best class for this is war. Do you not train xp? Just one at a time?

[Lampolo]

Like dsm

[Toxigen]

nah you just send the pet into full rooms and aoe mez

[Seducio]

For any group content that a warrior would be a considered a Monk would be superior if it's group content.

[Seducio]

Someone needs to train the cleric and ench for hours at a time. The best class for this is war. Do you not train xp? Just one at a time?

You said it yourself when you said three enchanters. No you don't need to train mobs into a group as a puller with Enchanters around. Enchanters can pull with slow ones, twos, or threes with ease.

Literally can have all three or even two ENCs soloing or working together. Choice of gameplay would belong to the player. Any group with 2 or 3 ENC would destroy a group with any Melee/Tank in it exp wise.

You already know this though. You just like your warrior.

[Lampolo]

K

[Lampolo]

So when enchanters are lfm because soloing is slow and boring they want more enchanters and necros? I see. Interesting

[Seducio]

ENC slow and boring?

You def have not played a real class yet have you.

[Lampolo]

soloing is slow and boring, not enchanters. learn how to read

[Lampolo]

are there only trolls on this board?

[Seducio]

Lampolo your ideas aren't well thought out.

Roll an Enchanter for the first time if you want play a character that isn't boring solo.

If you have one and find an Enchanter boring solo then you need to fight harder mobs man.

[Lampolo]

I suppose boring or not could be a matter of taste. Speed of xp is not. ench solo is slow xp compared to trio

[Lampolo]

no you roll a chanter! lol

[Seducio]

This is one of those you can't fix stupid situations isn't it.

[Lampolo]

yes

[Vexenu]

Necro is really only needed for FD pulling once you get into more risky stuff 50+. With Ench and Cleric both able to Lull (and Ench Mez obv) the general XP pulling will be easy. Warrior is a complete waste. SK and Monk could be decent long term but the Necro is so much better 1-60 with trash gear it comes out well ahead.

You could argue Enc/Enc/Cleric as technically stronger, but in any zone with undead the Necro is basically filling the charm DPS role of the second chanter anyway, plus also bringing all the Necro utility. And in non-undead zones the Necro can still add very respectable DPS with summoned pet and nukes/DoTs. Having every enemy mob snared during combat is, by itself, a huge added safety factor while charming that the Necro brings. And Screaming Terror as a backup mez on charm breaks to help the chanter is another layer of safety. And when all else fails, the Necro FDs and rezzes the Cleric and the trio picks up where they left off rather than starting a nasty CR. So all that being the case, I think the added Necro utility outweighs the benefits of stacking a second Enchanter in most cases (although if both Enchanters are skilled and dialed-in they will obviously steamroll everything).

[Seducio]

Would take a Necro, Shaman, Mage over melee literally any day of week in a trio.

When considering Complete Heal. Tanks/melee cost too much mana to keep alive.

Tanks/Melees don't have enough hit points. Charmed pets have like 8k hitpoints or higher in the low 50s. And that's Kunark mobs. Velious mobs have even higher hitpoints.

Healing that many hitpoints via CH for 360 mana is what make ENC/CLR/(any high end caster) so dang efficient.

This meta was known years and years ago.

[Lampolo]

If any caster pulls as much as a tank does in this trio they are out of mana making them a cloth melee effectively. Yes you can pull fast at 50+. Describing what necros do as a class doesn't really mean anything. Nothing of what you say about them increases xp per hr. This is same garbage technical vagrancies dsm is spewing. I might as well say warriors bind wound and taunt so there fore they are better. Same logic

[Seducio]

How many hitpoints does your warrior have? Stop wasting the clerics mana.

/kicks Warrior. Get better gear guy. Once you have 8k hitpoints let me know.

/Invites Necro, Shaman, or Mage

[Lampolo]

That's over simplified. Are you dsm? The war is better than necro in this trio long before cheal

[Seducio]

It isn't. It is very simple. You waste clerics mana and now you aren't in the group.

This necro is kicking ass though. Glad I invited him.

[Lampolo]

Well I'm glad too then. You guys have a good night

[Vexenu]

If any caster pulls as much as a tank does in this trio they are out of mana making them a cloth melee effectively. Yes you can pull fast at 50+. Describing what necros do as a class doesn't really mean anything. Nothing of what you say about them increases xp per hr. This is same garbage technical vagrancies dsm is spewing. I might as well say warriors bind wound and taunt so there fore they are better. Same logic

What is body pulling?
What is pulling with a lvl 1 spell?
What is pulling with a pet?
What is the Lich line if not the best mana regen in the game?

If you think a Necro can't pull effectively for this trio you've never seen someone even halfway decent play the class.

[Lampolo]

What is body pulling?
Something you can’t do while you meditate.
What is pulling with a lvl 1 spell?
Something you can’t do while you meditate.
What is pulling with a pet?
Something you can’t do while you meditate. You have to acquire the target in case you missed my point. Which you would have missed for sure cause your dumb.
What is the Lich line if not the best mana regen in the game?
Are you saying the Lich line eliminates the need for meditate?
If you think a Necro can't pull effectively for this trio you've never seen someone even halfway decent play the class.
If you think a necro can pull as well as a tank for a xp trio you have never had a tank pull. Doesn’t even have to be good, just needs a bow.

Are you sure your not DSM? You make no sense

[Seducio]

Your right Lampolo. I see the error of my ways after reading your stimulating questions of others that play p99 better than you. How could I be so silly about warriors in trios all this time. The best class for trios in this twenty four year old game was right under my nose this whole time. The Warrior class! Silly me.

Where can I sign up for your guild oh wise leader?

[BigPlays]

What are they going to be regularly pulling that can't be pacified?

Casters. As soon as a failed fd happens it’s dirtnap time.

[Vexenu]

Something you can’t do while you meditate.

The point is that you don't NEED a melee to pull, and you don't need to be medding 24/7 on a Necro in this trio. You are contributing largely mana-free DPS from your pet, Lich is constantly returning mana and you can get more than enough med time during kills to sustain both your health and your mana pool. As far as pulling goes, there's no functional difference between you shooting an arrow at a mob and a Necro hitting it with a level 1 Siphon Strength (https://wiki.project1999.com/Siphon_Strength) (which costs a whopping 5 mana). Both can be sustained indefinitely, but in addition to being able to pull, the Necro also offers a FUCKLOAD more utility than the Warrior. And a trio, even with double charm pets, isn't killing fast enough to require non-stop chain pulls into camp like a full group ideally does. Also, if you envision your Warrior primarily running around chain pulling, why the fuck aren't you just playing a Monk to begin with?

Warrior offers basically nothing to this group, to the extent that I'd honestly rather have a Wizard in the third slot instead. Snare, ports/evacs, spike DPS to burn mobs, backup stuns, flux staff pulling/aggro kiting provide actual value and needed utility. Warrior is literally just a warm body pulling mobs while providing sub-par tanking and DPS.

[BigPlays]

The point is that you don't NEED a melee to pull, and you don't need to be medding 24/7 on a Necro in this trio. You are contributing largely mana-free DPS from your pet, Lich is constantly returning mana and you can get more than enough med time during kills to sustain both your health and your mana pool. As far as pulling goes, there's no functional difference between you shooting an arrow at a mob and a Necro hitting it with a level 1 Siphon Strength (https://wiki.project1999.com/Siphon_Strength) (which costs a whopping 5 mana). Both can be sustained indefinitely, but in addition to being able to pull, the Necro also offers a FUCKLOAD more utility than the Warrior. And a trio, even with double charm pets, isn't killing fast enough to require non-stop chain pulls into camp like a full group ideally does. Also, if you envision your Warrior primarily running around chain pulling, why the fuck aren't you just playing a Monk to begin with?

Warrior offers basically nothing to this group, to the extent that I'd honestly rather have a Wizard in the third slot instead. Snare, ports/evacs, spike DPS to burn mobs, backup stuns, flux staff pulling/aggro kiting provide actual value and needed utility. Warrior is literally just a warm body pulling mobs while providing sub-par tanking and DPS.

Everything is gonna depend where you fight. Sure if you can get single pulls but if things go south a monk can fd. I never been in an efficient group where a monk or bard is not pulling.

[Jimjam]

I never been in an efficient group where a monk or bard is not pulling.

Do you feel your reported experiences here may be a reflection on the limits of your experiences?

[Vexenu]

Everything is gonna depend where you fight. Sure if you can get single pulls but if things go south a monk can fd. I never been in an efficient group where a monk or bard is not pulling.
So can a Necro, though?

Maybe you misread me. I am advocating for a Necro as the third wheel, not a Wizard. I was just saying that even a Wizard would be preferable to a Warrior, because the Wizard legitimately brings a decent amount of utility to the trio, while the Warrior brings basically nothing to the table. Worse tanking and DPS than the Enchanter pet, no CC, no healing, no FD. Literally just an XP sponge whose biggest contribution is pulling (which a Monk could do much better, and which several other classes could do just as well).

[BigPlays]

Do you feel your reported experiences here may be a reflection on the limits of your experiences?

No. Been playing since 1999 and generally good groups are pulling with monks and or bards. I have been in groups where other tanks pull but are not as efficient

[BigPlays]

So can a Necro, though?

Maybe you misread me. I am advocating for a Necro as the third wheel, not a Wizard. I was just saying that even a Wizard would be preferable to a Warrior, because the Wizard legitimately brings a decent amount of utility to the trio, while the Warrior brings basically nothing to the table. Worse tanking and DPS than the Enchanter pet, no CC, no healing, no FD. Literally just an XP sponge whose biggest contribution is pulling (which a Monk could do much better, and which several other classes could do just as well).

I’m just saying the necro is squishy. One caster hitting you while fd is gonna be bad times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m just saying the necro is squishy. One caster hitting you while fd is gonna be bad times.

Necros have options. If their FD fails they can get up and harmshield. That is enough time for FD to pop up and you can try again.

[Vexenu]

I’m just saying the necro is squishy. One caster hitting you while fd is gonna be bad times.
True, but an untwinked Monk is not going to fare much better against casters when things inevitably go south.

But with Ench/Cleric both pacifying as needed, Mez, Screaming Terror from the Necro, two DAs on the Cleric, Harmshield on the Necro and two pets to help pull... the group really shouldn't have much of an issue pulling most content very safely.

[BigPlays]

True, but an untwinked Monk is not going to fare much better against casters when things inevitably go south.

But with Ench/Cleric both pacifying as needed, Mez, Screaming Terror from the Necro, two DAs on the Cleric, Harmshield on the Necro and two pets to help pull... the group really shouldn't have much of an issue pulling most content very safely.

I think 1-50 I would agree but once you hit sebilis etc the monk should be pretty well geared. Necro is gonna take dirt naps left and right once you start doing 50+ content. You are gonna be doing mostly old world stuff to 50 due to low hitpoint mobs. I am not really considering any of these groups having a hard time 1-50, so I think necro would fit better especially in lower guk.

[Toxigen]

monks sole purpose is to keep mobs coming into the enc / pet. let the pet tank and ch it

[Vexenu]

monks sole purpose is to keep mobs coming into the enc / pet. let the pet tank and ch it

I think 1-50 I would agree but once you hit sebilis etc the monk should be pretty well geared. Necro is gonna take dirt naps left and right once you start doing 50+ content. You are gonna be doing mostly old world stuff to 50 due to low hitpoint mobs. I am not really considering any of these groups having a hard time 1-50, so I think necro would fit better especially in lower guk.
I mean a Monk is definitely not a bad answer here. I'd probably take the Monk either #2 or #3 (behind SK). You guys are really underestimating Necro pulling, though. They get an absolutely STUPID bag of tricks as far as pulling goes (CoS, snare, fear, 2x DA, undead charm, Mez, pet, FD, self-evac). A well-played Necro is probably the single most powerful pulling class in the game. That being said, most Necros don't push the class that far, and since most pulling isn't that complicated to begin with, a Monk is often preferable with their superior FD.

Necro brings so much valuable utility to a trio, though. Personally, I wouldn't pass that up in favor of more straightforward Monk pulling. But, different strokes.

[Crede]

Anybody who says something besides Cleric/Ench/Monk or Cleric/Ench/SK is trying to be provocative or is pushing an agenda.


Or they want you to have fun. Have fun instead, its a 24 year old game.

Pretty much tbis.

But I’d give sks the edge because snap aggro. Seen the most low man wipes because the monk couldn’t hold aggro, not because dps or mitigation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is not an agenda or provocative to tell people how other classes and trios work in the game lol. Absolute absurdity.

[Naerron]

they obvious answer is...enchanter, enchanter, enchanter, and a cleric bot you all share and mage coth bots you make later.

But if u don't want to make bots, as, enchanter, enchanter, enchanter, you will have enough money to buy most anything in the form of gear/services

[Vexenu]

Given how obviously OP Enchanters are, the more thought provoking question at this point is, "What is the best trio that does NOT include an Enchanter?"

DSM will be delighted that a Shaman would undoubtedly be included in this case, but the other two slots seem debatable. I'd probably say Shm/Pal/Nec. That covers a lot of bases.

What else?
Shm/Mag/Clr?
Shm/SK/Rog?
Shm/Mnk/Nec?
Wiz/Wiz/Wiz? (shoutout to Sam DeathWalker of SZ fame)

[BigPlays]

I remember on one of images severs we made 3 necros and was able to take down the evil eye at lv 20

[Baldwooky]

I remember on one of images severs we made 3 necros and was able to take down the evil eye at lv 20

In live, 5x lvl 16-20 untwinked necros could take down sand giants.

Also, dont overlook Ranger in the Ench + Cleric trio

Provides way more than an SK or monk imo
More dps than sk
Better outdoor pulling
More safety via Better snare and agro for peeling pets off enchanters, sow
Dont underestimate how much tracking can help you farm gear to use or sell.


doubling up on classes like ench ench cleric or necro necro necro/mage prob more efficient but its better to have alot of stuff in a groups toolkit imo, youll be able to do more different content.

Anyone can level up to 60 in safe zones., were looking self farming dungeon content here. I take a ranger over the monk or sk any day in that trio, it keeps the enchanter and their pet running at peak efficiency, and opens up alot more loot to be found.

[BigPlays]

In live, 5x lvl 16-20 untwinked necros could take down sand giants.

Also, dont overlook Ranger in the Ench + Cleric trio

Provides way more than an SK or monk imo
More dps than sk
Better outdoor pulling
More safety via Better snare and agro for peeling pets off enchanters, sow
Dont underestimate how much tracking can help you farm gear to use or sell.


doubling up on classes like ench ench cleric or necro necro necro/mage prob more efficient but its better to have alot of stuff in a groups toolkit imo, youll be able to do more different content.

Anyone can level up to 60 in safe zones., were looking self farming dungeon content here. I take a ranger over the monk or sk any day in that trio, it keeps the enchanter and their pet running at peak efficiency, and opens up alot more loot to be found.

Makes sense if you are doing all outdoor content. I think in the end you play what is fun but if you want the best, it will vary on where you level, what risks you are willing to take and if you are going for loot vs exp