Why do people say SK's do more DPS than Paladins?

[long.liam]

They both have the Same Offensive Caps. They both have access to the same weapons. The SK might have slightly more starting strength, if you choose ogre or troll, but with good gear both will be strength capped. You could argue the SK's pet increases his DPS, but most SK's rarely use the pet since it is so low level it will pull aggro and does very little damage to mobs. The SK spells might do damage, but all of them are low level necro spells and SK's lack the mana regen to sustain that damage for very long. Paladin and SK's should have roughly the same amount of sustained DPS assuming equal gear, stats, weapons.

[Snaggles]

They have a lower piercing cap than paladin which I recall is about 30 attack (an issue if you use a poker).

Yaulp4 is 40str which closes the race gap over SK biggies (mostly). It also gives 40 attack. Shroud of Hate is 20attack and stacks with ranger SoN (25). Yaulp4 overlaps SoN so it’s pretty close. If you can land shroud of hate on stuff every 10 mins or so to keep it active.

Probably the cumulative dots, 44 necro pet, and belief in racial str if I had to guess why the general logic. Tap procs will land on stuff but only a few dps on average; divine might won’t since it’s 0 MR check resist. If the sk is chaining drain soul via top slot I’m sure they could beat a paladin while mana held up.

Typically though, most knights parse about the same with the same buffs and weapons. Randomness considered of course.

[Naethyn]

Sk's regularly parse lower than paladins on raids.

[Jimjam]

Parses don’t show others’ spell damage.

I believe people attribute SK’s improved dps to their spells. I also think they are referring more to the level process than when killing red raid mobs.

Unnerf lifetaps tho.

[jolanar]

Probably just holdover from live where that statement is a lot more true. Also probably the same reason people think Paladin is somehow a lot better against undead than regular mobs. Ya you could unload your mana bar on mediocre undead nukes or mediocre SK DoTs, but in practice it's not worth it and you'd be better off saving that mana for heals/lifetaps.

[Jimjam]

It is also worth mentioning on a server where there is such a proliferation of 1:1 dmg delay knight weapons spending time casting spells won’t do as much damage relative to melee.

[Ripqozko]

It is also worth mentioning on a server where there is such a proliferation of 1:1 dmg delay knight weapons spending time casting spells won’t do as much damage relative to melee.

yea pretty much this, there is a threshold where weapon dps starts overtaking spellcasting time, most folks have access to tov knight weapons since draft and the common rate of them. at this point both do about same minus rng.

[Snaggles]

In most situations everyone who can use it should be getting strength of nature over divine strength. Most SK’s ask my pally for DS. I also expect most aren’t keeping Shroud of Hate up. If a paladin is yalping at 60 that’s a 40 attack difference.

I don’t know what chaining drain soul is while meleeing. Or really what targets can be tapped. I don’t sk or necro. With good rmg it’s possible for Shroud of Death to proc a ton and that can add up.

In general though relative dos should come down to buffs, weapons, and luck.

[Insaiyan]

That’s wild. You would think SKs do more damage, since life taps are unresistable + pets + dots. What exactly pushes paladins over in damage? Buffs? I find it hard to believe! Looks like I need to re-read some of the stuff above me.

[Crede]

They both have the Same Offensive Caps. They both have access to the same weapons. The SK might have slightly more starting strength, if you choose ogre or troll, but with good gear both will be strength capped. You could argue the SK's pet increases his DPS, but most SK's rarely use the pet since it is so low level it will pull aggro and does very little damage to mobs. The SK spells might do damage, but all of them are low level necro spells and SK's lack the mana regen to sustain that damage for very long. Paladin and SK's should have roughly the same amount of sustained DPS assuming equal gear, stats, weapons.

Really common misconception here about sk pets. The max one at 52 will quad for 39 and the max one at 58 will quad for 46. This is honestly no joke, and puts sks ahead of paladins for group content dps. If you’re not finding ways to utilize your pet then you’re just being inefficient(get a reclaim energy clicky). Also you have things like sk epic that do damage over time or lifetaps as needed. Pallies are great but their spells suck for doing dmg.

For raids who cares they both aren’t that great but pallies get the raid edge for sure for other reasons.

[Ripqozko]

Really common misconception here about sk pets. The max one at 52 will quad for 39 and the max one at 58 will quad for 46. This is honestly no joke, and puts sks ahead of paladins for group content dps. If you’re not finding ways to utilize your pet then you’re just being inefficient(get a reclaim energy clicky). Also you have things like sk epic that do damage over time or lifetaps as needed. Pallies are great but their spells suck for doing dmg.

For raids who cares they both aren’t that great but pallies get the raid edge for sure for other reasons.

Raids all that matters tho, 5 more dps in group content isn’t making or breaking , sk won’t be using their pet on raids except like vindi/aow

[Crede]

Raids all that matters tho, 5 more dps in group content isn’t making or breaking , sk won’t be using their pet on raids except like vindi/aow

Lol why is raiding all that matters? Literal worst part of this server

[Ripqozko]

Lol why is raiding all that matters? Literal worst part of this server

Sorry you don’t got raid

[Snaggles]

Lol why is raiding all that matters? Literal worst part of this server

I assumed the OP was talking dps relative to when other knights are around. Nobody cares pally vs sk for a group tank or duo/trio. Other reasons one might shine and if you have multiple knights in a group that’s kind of strange.

The best sk pet is like 25-27dps. That’s no joke.

[Trelaboon]

As others mentioned, in raids the DPS is pretty equal. Paladins can actually win out depending on weapons being used by both, given the different weapon skill caps. In groups, or solo content, Shadowknights can pull more DPS.

[Crede]

I assumed the OP was talking dps relative to when other knights are around. Nobody cares pally vs sk for a group tank or duo/trio. Other reasons one might shine and if you have multiple knights in a group that’s kind of strange.

The best sk pet is like 25-27dps. That’s no joke.

Yea, the max 49 to max 52 pet is an 8 level jump. getting an extra 1-1.5k hp to soak up some damage(especially HTs) comes in handy a lot in addition to the dps gain for a class that needs every bit of help it can get.

Personally if I was forming a knight trio it would be cleric/enc/SK. I'd rather have FD/snare then pally utility since that's all covered by enc/cleric anyway. But both are fun classes and the correct answer is to just have both of them.

[Snaggles]

Cleric/ench/SK probably makes the most sense. You have a redundancy system of stuns, lulls, and a FD puller with snare.

A pally maybe for a trio without a cleric. Monk/sham/pally for example.

Often playing my pally I wish I had my sk’s spell kit from live. Often I’m glad I have the pally instead. Why I never got the “pally vs sk” threads. They are both great, each slightly excelling at different things. It’s not like Chevy vs Ford when one is objectively terrible (jk).

[Jimjam]

My fave trio without a cleric 55-59 is ranger, monk, necromancer. Ranger and monk counts as a knight right .... kinda?

[Ripqozko]

All of yall are wrong, clearly shm/shm/shm is the best trio -DSM

[Duik]

Trollocaust.

[Toxigen]

Best trio w/o cleric (and no 2x of 1 class) is enc / shaman / monk (can sub in pally/sk/war here but monk is best).

Could also argue enc / necro / shaman and sticking to undead charm spots. Don't have to focus on keeping pets alive but rather sending them into big packs of mobs and letting all the adds do the damage.

[Duik]

Best trio w/o cleric (and no 2x of 1 class) is enc / shaman / monk (can sub in pally/sk/war here but monk is best).

Could also argue enc / necro / shaman and sticking to undead charm spots. Don't have to focus on keeping pets alive but rather sending them into big packs of mobs and letting all the adds do the damage.
And this has exactly what to do with SK's vs Pal DPS?
I expected better.
No wonder you where banned. (EXP loss death).

[Snaggles]

And this has exactly what to do with SK's vs Pal DPS?
I expected better.
No wonder you where banned. (EXP loss death).

Threads tend to shift topically by page 3. 2/5 troll attempt.

[Jimjam]

And this has exactly what to do with SK's vs Pal DPS?
I expected better.
No wonder you where banned. (EXP loss death).

Well Sk/Pal is a knight question which is tangentially related to monks and rangers too, but by that point you have to acknowledge the group is better without knights so why even bother with a melee… didn’t you follow the thread?!

[Crede]

Best trio w/o cleric (and no 2x of 1 class) is enc / shaman / monk (can sub in pally/sk/war here but monk is best).

Could also argue enc / necro / shaman and sticking to undead charm spots. Don't have to focus on keeping pets alive but rather sending them into big packs of mobs and letting all the adds do the damage.

I know monks are hugely broken, but I’d rather take sk snap aggro/snare in exchange for less mitigation/dps if I’m making a trio. Never seen a trio wipe because of the difference in mitigation between a monk and sk. I’ve seen it wipe because the slower got killed because the monk couldn’t hold aggro. Enchanter/cleric can kill damn near anything so protecting them is the most important IMO. Is a monk an overall better class than a sk? Absolutely but this is one scenario I like sks better.

[Toxigen]

I know monks are hugely broken, but I’d rather take sk snap aggro/snare in exchange for less mitigation/dps if I’m making a trio. Never seen a trio wipe because of the difference in mitigation between a monk and sk. I’ve seen it wipe because the slower got killed because the monk couldn’t hold aggro. Enchanter/cleric can kill damn near anything so protecting them is the most important IMO. Is a monk an overall better class than a sk? Absolutely but this is one scenario I like sks better.

topic got a little disjointed but i feel ya - i just prefer monk FD / stone / mend for nearly all situations save for some niche camps

if all 3 are competent players monk is the clear choice...but yeah...if not exactly p99 all-stars SK is just more forgiving

its funny...we have to use "no enc / cleric" parameters to even have an interesting conversation about best group trios

I still want to do a static, no twinking, all iksar necro / shaman / monk. Go out in the world and farm for gear upgrades. I think thats gotta be the most baller trio outside of enc / cleric / whatever.

[Insaiyan]

topic got a little disjointed but i feel ya - i just prefer monk FD / stone / mend for nearly all situations save for some niche camps

if all 3 are competent players monk is the clear choice...but yeah...if not exactly p99 all-stars SK is just more forgiving

its funny...we have to use "no enc / cleric" parameters to even have an interesting conversation about best group trios

I still want to do a static, no twinking, all iksar necro / shaman / monk. Go out in the world and farm for gear upgrades. I think thats gotta be the most baller trio outside of enc / cleric / whatever.

You seem to be missing the best tank in your signature link down there … what gives ?

[Toxigen]

You seem to be missing the best tank in your signature link down there … what gives ?

SKs are garbage hope this helps

[Insaiyan]

SKs are garbage hope this helps

Noooooooooooooo :(

[long.liam]

Can anyone Confirm the Skill caps for Paladins and Shadowknights per the wiki. It says paladins get higher piercing, but shadowknights get slightly higher offense. I don't have a level 60 of either class otherwise I wouldn't be asking.

[Zuranthium]

Really common misconception here about sk pets. The max one at 52 will quad for 39 and the max one at 58 will quad for 46. This is honestly no joke, and puts sks ahead of paladins for group content dps.

Yes, use your pet. Do damage. Kill more.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can anyone Confirm the Skill caps for Paladins and Shadowknights per the wiki. It says paladins get higher piercing, but shadowknights get slightly higher offense. I don't have a level 60 of either class otherwise I wouldn't be asking.

SKs do have a lower piercing cap. My SK is capped at like 207 at 58. Not sure about offense, would need to double check what my current skill number is. Don't have a paladin to compare offense skills either.

To OPs question, SKs do out DPS paladins in any solo/group content. They have a pet, lifetap proc, and an exclusive attack buff via shroud of hate.

Raid DPS isn't really relevant for knights. Neither are DPS classes in raiding. You bring paladins for buffing and soulfire, you bring SKs for some specific pulling in VP.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just doing a quick parse on a few mobs in Howling Stones, my 58 SK was doing around 58 DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge , 54% haste, and Shroud of Death procs.

The SK pet did about 12 DPS with 20% haste, so the pet is boosting an SK's DPS by around 20%. I don't think a Paladin has anything in their toolkit to boost DPS by 20%. This doesn't include SK spells, but obviously casting spells causes melee DPS loss for both Paladins and Shadowknights.

[Toxigen]

SK might do more damage but a Paladin is going to clear a room a lot faster.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

SK might do more damage but a Paladin is going to clear a room a lot faster.

How so?

[Toxigen]

How so?

paci, root, deepwater bp

[DeathsSilkyMist]

paci, root, deepwater bp

That depends on the camp. SK's have Paci in any undead zone. SK's also have fear kite, which means they don't need to heal in-between encounters.

I would be curious to watch a video to see how quickly a Paladin can clear an area, so I can do a similar video with my SK.

Basically a Paladin has more CC, but is going to kill slower and they need to heal in between fights.

An SK doesn't need to heal due to fear kite and they kill faster, but it takes time to set up the fear kite for each mob.

[Jimjam]

Sk has snare+fd which can be handy for splits.

[Toxigen]

That depends on the camp. SK's have Paci in any undead zone. SK's also have fear kite, which means they don't need to heal in-between encounters.

I would be curious to watch a video to see how quickly a Paladin can clear an area, so I can do a similar video with my SK.

Basically a Paladin has more CC, but is going to kill slower and they need to heal in between fights.

An SK doesn't need to heal due to fear kite and they kill faster, but it takes time to set up the fear kite for each mob.

lets line em up...you've got 3 levels on mine should be easy right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lets line em up...you've got 3 levels on mine should be easy right?

Sounds good! Name the camp you want to do and I'll do it too. We can compare videos to see who did it faster.

[Toxigen]

Sounds good! Name the camp you want to do and I'll do it too. We can compare videos to see who did it faster.

we racing for pink slips?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

we racing for pink slips?

Unless I misunderstood your last post, you offered to do a comparison with your Paladin. If you don't want to, that's fine, but then I am not sure why you offered just a few minutes ago.

[Ripqozko]

Well now that VQ is dead, DSM will be back to full forum trolling .

[Insaiyan]

Toxigen won't do it though. You know why? SK is going to kill faster.

[Crede]

You can get really creative with SK fear kiting in close quarters. Paired with the right gear like epic/crown/fungi/BE clickies, my SK could go for a few hours at a time before really needing a serious med break to the point where I don't believe any other melee could keep up xp wise.

This is really dependent on the camp though, if there's no room at all and you have to face tank constantly, like Kedge, pally will win hands down because SKs struggle with downtime heals. They got shafted not having access to 210 bind wound as well, which I find odd because pallies got it and they are better healers.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can get really creative with SK fear kiting in close quarters. Paired with the right gear like epic/crown/fungi/BE clickies, my SK could go for a few hours at a time before really needing a serious med break to the point where I don't believe any other melee could keep up xp wise.

This is really dependent on the camp though, if there's no room at all and you have to face tank constantly, like Kedge, pally will win hands down because SKs struggle with downtime heals. They got shafted not having access to 210 bind wound as well, which I find odd because pallies got it and they are better healers.

I agree with this. Any situation where the SK cannot fear kite (camp setup or mob immunity), then a Paladin is superior. They can face tank better, and don't need to worry as much about spell resists since they are healing themselves more often than they are attempting to land a spell on the mob.

This mostly becomes an issue with solo challenges. Typically a level 60 SK isn't going to be soloing mobs that are 55+ or snare/fear immune to begin with. That type of encounter is ranging into the territory of trying to solo a Cliff Golem. Both SKs and Paladins can do that if they are geared well enough, but the Paladin will probably have the easier time. But those mobs are better suited to be killed by other classes hehe. If you can fully raid gear a Paladin or SK, you probably have another class that could do the encounter better.

[Snaggles]

Soloing a CG is quite a feat with a melee. The issue with the pally is the HoT is great but its like 30hp/sec while rolling. Give or take half the hp you get from a lifetap not to mention the damage it does.

Any situation where 30hp/sec is good enough or you want to throw it on another player like a rogue, i personally like the pally spellbook. Going toe to toe with something doing more than that much dps its just a matter of time unless you reach into the bag of clickies. Then again, most SK's dont have an ungodly level of mana...just a few that make really cool solo vids :)

[Ennewi]

Stating the obvious but SKs also having Harm Touch gives them an edge, despite how irregular it does any/full damage even with disc applied. Back when push interrupt worked, a resisted HT still had value versus casters because it would push enough to prevent a complete heal/gate. As others have said, mostly it's that the SK can layer on more damage with heavy dots for a fight or two, but those dots cost quite a bit of mana. Except for their pet, OOM puts the SK back in the vicinity of the paladin who wouldn't be able to temporarily increase their damage output even with unlimited mana. If only heals doubled as damage spells versus undead in EQ...

[enjchanter]

i wanna see the pally vs sk clear video
would watch

[Toxigen]

What do we wanna do for a route, DSM?

Seb ent to NG safe spot?

Freeti trash to freeti?

Hole rat jail full clear?

I'm kind of stuck on ideas. May try to get a level as well. Don't think I'll need it but 58 vs 55 is a bit heavy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What do we wanna do for a route, DSM?

Seb ent to NG safe spot?

Freeti trash to freeti?

Hole rat jail full clear?

I'm kind of stuck on ideas. May try to get a level as well. Don't think I'll need it but 58 vs 55 is a bit heavy.

I wasn't sure if there were some spots that were tilted towards SK, which is why I was looking for suggestions on your end, I don't have a high level Paladin.

We could do Seb Ent to NG safe spot as an easy starter. See who can kill all the trash to NG faster.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I can do a video first for Seb Ent to NG, and you can try to beat the time. That way you can decide whether you want to get another level or not.

It may be a few days before I get the video done anyway. Not 100% sure when I will get the time to do the full run.

[Toxigen]

yeah no biggie im away all this weekend

[Insaiyan]

Subscribed

[Snaggles]

i wanna see the pally vs sk clear video
would watch

Lol how much time do you have? Even droga is painfully slow at 60…

[Pint]

Yea going to be some long videos watching sub 60 knights clear to ng

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is a rough video I did today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUYKBvYpPyM

It is surprisingly difficult to get a full run due to people coming in and out of Sebilis. I don't want to interrupt them by trying to dissuade them from going through.

At the end of the video Bbeta and his group came in to finish up one of the tri-mobs hehe.

Might be best to just do the first 8 mobs, since I did those without incident. That is entrance to the bottom of the stairs. I kill the 8th mob at the 37 minute mark in the video.

I also died at the end of the video. I got a bit too greedy and used a runway that was too short. I should have used Dooming Darkness lol.

[Crede]

Here is a rough video I did today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUYKBvYpPyM

It is surprisingly difficult to get a full run due to people coming in and out of Sebilis. I don't want to interrupt them by trying to dissuade them from going through.

At the end of the video Bbeta and his group came in to finish up one of the tri-mobs hehe.

Might be best to just do the first 8 mobs, since I did those without incident. That is entrance to the bottom of the stairs. I kill the 8th mob at the 37 minute mark in the video.

I also died at the end of the video. I got a bit too greedy and used a runway that was too short. I should have used Dooming Darkness lol.

Nice video, couple things though.

You settled for the 2nd worst pet. I saw you had the broom, you should have resummoned to get a max or 2nd max pet. No reason to leave dmg off the table. You can also click hotkeys from the socials tab of the Actions window while casting, so you can do splits with a pet while moving/casting with the left hand while you click pet back off with the right so it can help you on the splits. I also saw no banshee aura, 12 DS still helps, small things start to add up over time. Fungi will definitely help offset a lot of downtime as well, I see vindi BP as more of a named tanking item, not a sustained xping item.

Otherwise as demonstrated, SKs can be pretty effective if you have even a little bit of room to fear kite. Epic is awesome for swapping in too even if you have a ToV weapon to try to get a proc to eliminate more downtime.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nice video, couple things though.

You settled for the 2nd worst pet. I saw you had the broom, you should have resummoned to get a max or 2nd max pet. No reason to leave dmg off the table. You can also click hotkeys from the socials tab of the Actions window while casting, so you can do splits with a pet while moving/casting with the left hand while you click pet back off with the right so it can help you on the splits. I also saw no banshee aura, 12 DS still helps, small things start to add up over time. Fungi will definitely help offset a lot of downtime as well, I see vindi BP as more of a named tanking item, not a sustained xping item.

Otherwise as demonstrated, SKs can be pretty effective if you have even a little bit of room to fear kite. Epic is awesome for swapping in too even if you have a ToV weapon to try to get a proc to eliminate more downtime.

Thanks!

Yeah this was just a rough video, it certainly could be better.

For the pet levels I didn't want to include 2+ minutes of me summoning pets if I got unlucky. This is supposed to be a clear speed example video, so I just went with the first pet. I also didn't want to spend all my bone chips and have to run back to get more.

I do agree I should have used Banshee Aura. I was being conservative on mana since I haven't done Seb Ent on my SK in years. I only did a few practice fights before the video to try and figure out pathing/mob strength. That is why I screw up a few times during the video and die at the end of the video. Ideally I needed a bit more practice first, I just didn't have time.

Thanks for the reminder on the socials tab, I forgot you could use pet commands while casting there.

I don't have Fungi/Epic/Soul Defiler on my SK sadly. That would have helped for sure. Luckily since I am a Troll, I have 14 HP Regen/Tick with 2 AoB items while standing, so I am pretty close to wearing a Fungi anyway. A level 58 non-Troll would be at 18 Regen/Tick with Fungi. With Shroud of Death proccing once per minute that basically gets me up to 19 HP Regen/Tick, which puts me on par with Toxigen's Paladin with Fungi in terms of manaless regeneration.

[Gugg]

They both have the Same Offensive Caps. They both have access to the same weapons. The SK might have slightly more starting strength, if you choose ogre or troll, but with good gear both will be strength capped. You could argue the SK's pet increases his DPS, but most SK's rarely use the pet since it is so low level it will pull aggro and does very little damage to mobs. The SK spells might do damage, but all of them are low level necro spells and SK's lack the mana regen to sustain that damage for very long. Paladin and SK's should have roughly the same amount of sustained DPS assuming equal gear, stats, weapons.

Because SK have OP SK only weapons and a frikkin pet. It's to stop players picking the "good guys".

[Ripqozko]

Because SK have OP SK only weapons and a frikkin pet. It's to stop players picking the "good guys".

Sk and pally both get tuna sword it's same shit, sure pet helps on group content but no one cares about group content, hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sk and pally both get tuna sword it's same shit, sure pet helps on group content but no one cares about group content, hope that helps.

Paladins and SK's are not DPS classes on raids. If raiding was the only thing that mattered, why waste DKP on a SK/Paladin to get a Tuna Sword?

People make SK's/Paladins for Solo/Group content, which is why they get a Tuna Sword. It allows them to do Solo/Group content better.

Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

Paladins and SK's are not DPS classes on raids. If raiding was the only thing that mattered, why waste DKP on a SK/Paladin to get a Tuna Sword?

People make SK's/Paladins for Solo/Group content, which is why they get a Tuna Sword. It allows them to do Solo/Group

Hope this helps.

Sorry you don't got raid

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If your raid needs DPS, log out of your Paladin/SK and get on your Rogue. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

If your raid needs DPS, log out of your Paladin/SK and get on your Rogue. Hope this helps.

Least ya won't have to worry about that in VQ

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Least ya won't have to worry about that in VQ

All guilds rise and fall. That doesn't change how raiding works. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

All guilds rise and fall. That doesn't change how raiding works. Hope this helps.

Sorry ya don't got

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry ya don't got

Hope this helps.

[Gugg]

Sk and pally both get tuna sword it's same shit, sure pet helps on group content but no one cares about group content, hope that helps.

SK gets FSI and starts out with huge STR.

[Ripqozko]

SK gets FSI and starts out with huge STR.

Everyone caps str

[Insaiyan]

In conclusion, if you want a pet, SK is the best tank.

[Ripqozko]

In conclusion, if you want a pet, SK is the best tank.

Basically yep

[Crede]

In conclusion, if you want a pet, SK is the best tank.

A pet, fd, and a much cooler/more useful epic imo.

[Ripqozko]

A pet, fd, and a much cooler/more useful epic imo.

Epic Def better but purely dps wise both gonna use tuna or vulak so it's all same. Pet/fd vs lull,root,heals,mini torp. Sk does more in group content that no one cares about , both parse similar in raids. This whole thing is DSM nonsense, hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Epic Def better but purely dps wise both gonna use tuna or vulak so it's all same. Pet/fd vs lull,root,heals,mini torp. Sk does more in group content that no one cares about , both parse similar in raids. This whole thing is DSM nonsense, hope that helps.

It's pretty clear you don't understand raiding if you think SKs and Paladins are DPS classes in raids.

Nobody cares that you do not care about solo/group content. It's not relevant to the discussion. Hope this helps.

Ripqozko's argument is akin to saying "Mage DPS is the same as Cleric DPS in Raids".

[Ripqozko]

It's pretty clear you don't understand raiding if you think SKs and Paladins are DPS classes in raids.

Nobody cares that you do not care about solo/group content. It's not relevant to the discussion. Hope this helps.

Ripqozko's argument is akin to saying "Mage DPS is the same as Cleric DPS in Raids".

No one said they are dps classes I said they do about the same dps dumbass

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No one said they are dps classes I said they do about the same dps dumbass

You said "both parse similar in raids". That is irrelevant for a non-DPS class in raids.

A Paladin could do zero DPS in a raid and nobody would complain.

The only time Paladin/Shadowknight DPS matters is in Solo/Group content. Not sure how this is difficult to understand.

I get the point you are trying to make, and you are correct. If both a Paladin and Shadowknight simply autoattack with the same weapon, their DPS is the same. But that only occurs in raiding, and in raiding nobody is banking on their DPS to do anything.

[Ripqozko]

You said "both parse similar in raids". That is irrelevant for a non-DPS class in raids.

A Paladin could do zero DPS in a raid and nobody would complain.

The only time Paladin/Shadowknight DPS matters is in Solo/Group content. Not sure how this is difficult to understand.

They do tho that quote doesn't mean they are dps classes

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They do tho that quote doesn't mean they are dps classes

If they aren't DPS classes in raids, why are you using raid DPS as the benchmark?

That is like saying Mages do terrible DPS because they don't use their pets in raids. It is true that Mages don't DPS in raids, but you are missing the point of why Mages exist in raids.

Mages do much better DPS in Solo/Group content, where they can use their pets.

You are basically creating this strawman scenario where you are saying "raiding is the only thing that matters, therefore SK's can't use their pets, therefore DPS is the same". It's a nonsensical argument.

[Ripqozko]

If they aren't DPS classes in raids, why are you using raid DPS as the benchmark?

That is like saying Mages do terrible DPS in raid because they don't use their pets. This is true, but you are missing the point of why Mages exist in raids.

They do much better DPS in Solo/Group content, where they can use their pets.

You are basically creating this strawman scenario where you are saying "raiding is the only thing that matters, therefore SK's can't use their pets, therefore DPS is the same". It's a nonsensical argument.

Why are you so upset that when they do attack they are similar? I know their role isn't that

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why are you so upset that when they do attack they are similar? I know their role isn't that

I am not upset at all. I also agree that Paladin and SK DPS is the same if they only autoattack with the same weapon. I never denied that.

You are simply creating a strawman scenario that removes every DPS element an SK has other than autoattack to try and claim Paladin and SK DPS are the same.

It's simply not true. In all Solo/Group content, an SK will do more damage, which is OP's question. In a raid, SKs and Paladins are not there to do damage, so who cares which class does more damage in that scenario? It's like caring about if Clerics or Mages do more DPS in a raid.

[Ripqozko]

I am not upset at all. I also agree that Paladin and SK dps is the same if they only autoattack. I never denied that.

You are simply creating a strawman scenario that removes every DPS element an SK has other than autoattack to try and claim Paladin and SK DPS are the same.

It's simply not true. In all Solo/Group content, an SK will do more damage. In a raid, SKs and Paladins are not there to do damage, so who cares which class does more damage in that scenario? It's like caring about if Clerics or Mages do more DPS in a raid.

No one's creating anything, you went on a tagent because you wanted to make a point. When they attack on raids they are similar. You made up all the extra arguments no one cares about.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No one's creating anything, you went on a tagent because you wanted to make a point. When they attack on raids they are similar. You made up all the extra arguments no one cares about.

Didn't go on a tangent at all.

Sk and pally both get tuna sword it's same shit, sure pet helps on group content but no one cares about group content, hope that helps.

You literally said this two pages ago lol.

[Ripqozko]

Didn't go on a tangent at all.



You literally said this two pages ago lol.

Enjoy making things out of nothing, this is why yall don't raid anymore.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Enjoy making things out of nothing, this is why yall don't raid anymore.

Then you agree that SKs do more DPS than Paladins in Solo/Group content, and that Raid DPS doesn't matter for SKs and Paladins? That would be the only way I would be "making things out of nothing".

[Naethyn]

Is 127 ds the maximum ds possible for both classes?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is 127 ds the maximum ds possible for both classes?

I am not an expert on how DS's stack. Either it is the same maximum for both classes, or SK's can get 12 more, depending on how Banshee Aura stacks. As far as I know Paladins don't have any built-in damage shields.

[Naethyn]

That's ultimately why I'm wondering because if SK can have more ds than paladin then SK is the clear winner for tank dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's ultimately why I'm wondering because if SK can have more ds than paladin then SK is the clear winner for tank dps.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Buff_Lines if the wiki is correct it wouldn't stack with other superior DS's.

SK pet alone is doing more DPS than banshee aura anyway. Last time I did DS calculations for solo/group content, a 33 DS (Cadeau of Flame) is doing about 17 DPS per mob over 144 seconds of swings (unlsowed). That means banshee aura is doing about 6-7 DPS. SK pet is typically outputting around 12 DPS with just Strengthen Death. If a solo/group content mob is hitting enough times for Banshee Aura to do 12+ DPS, you are taking a lot more damage, and should probably slow the mob. If you can't slow the mob, you may need a Warrior to tank with disc instead.

As I said before, raid DPS isn't really relevant, since that is not the purpose of SKs/Paladins in raids. I think everybody here is in agreement that Paladin and SK DPS are basically the same in raids, assuming you have the same level, skill levels, and weapon. This is simply due to the fact that you can't use pets in raids, and all of your offensive spells will basically get resisted. Paladins and Shadowknights are simply autoattacking and racking up DS damage.

[Toxigen]

ngl the fear kiting in seb was solid

im in the middle of a pretty hectic week and im on a flight to san diego on business saturday morning

i really want to take a crack at beating your clear time, though...just may be a while

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ngl the fear kiting in seb was solid

im in the middle of a pretty hectic week and im on a flight to san diego on business saturday morning

i really want to take a crack at beating your clear time, though...just may be a while

No rush. I appreciate you are willing to do the video whenever you have the time. I am excited to see it! I kinda hope you do beat my time, so I can try to get a faster time too hehe.

[Crede]

Epic Def better but purely dps wise both gonna use tuna or vulak so it's all same. Pet/fd vs lull,root,heals,mini torp. Sk does more in group content that no one cares about , both parse similar in raids. This whole thing is DSM nonsense, hope that helps.

Bro why are you so obsessed with raiding, this is a locked server. You can win content with only wars/clerics.

Majority do care about group/solo content.

[Toxigen]

Bro why are you so obsessed with raiding, this is a locked server. You can win content with only wars/clerics.

Majority do care about group/solo content.

because sorry you dont got warder loot

hope this helps

[Ripqozko]

Bro why are you so obsessed with raiding, this is a locked server. You can win content with only wars/clerics.

Majority do care about group/solo content.

Sorry ya don't got raid

[strongNpretty]

Sorry ya don't got raid

Sorry I failed on all 3 servers

[Stroboo]

There are plenty of weapons you can give a pet that greatly increase their dps. 1-59, if sk want to do more dps they can easily with comparable weapons, but it can be a pain as many or the good pet weapons are lore so you only get so many chances before having to restock.

at 60 dps is not an important aspect of either classes typical gameplay except pp farming. overall pally is way more useful at 60 imo to have in your stable, but sk can do some really tricky stuff if you put in the time/effort to get the gear to near BiS level with all the fun toys.

[Crede]

There are plenty of weapons you can give a pet that greatly increase their dps. 1-59, if sk want to do more dps they can easily with comparable weapons, but it can be a pain as many or the good pet weapons are lore so you only get so many chances before having to restock.

at 60 dps is not an important aspect of either classes typical gameplay except pp farming. overall pally is way more useful at 60 imo to have in your stable, but sk can do some really tricky stuff if you put in the time/effort to get the gear to near BiS level with all the fun toys.

I do feel like pallies have an edge 45-60 but if you’re trying to do bis solo stuff at 60 I’d rather have a sk for fd.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I do feel like pallies have an edge 45-60 but if you’re trying to do bis solo stuff at 60 I’d rather have a sk for fd.

Yeah Paladins are better whenever you are fighting mobs that are level 55+ and/or they are fear immune. At that point typically a Paladin edges out because they are just more consistent.

You don't have to worry about spell resists because you are typically just healing yourself. I would prefer to use a Paladin over an SK when soloing Cliff Golems, for example. Not saying SKs can't do that, but a Paladin will probably have an easier time.

SKs are better whenever you can fight fearable mobs, or you need FD. Crit failing a Soothe on a group of tough mobs while you are deep in a dungeon sucks.

[Vivitron]

I wonder what some of the most fun/profitable solo and small man well-geared knight adventures are.

I think either knight could solo large chunks of seb (crypt?). Probably some decent chardok named too. Maybe a4 animals and twins?

For duo camps, I've had a good experience at fungi king with an sk on my ench. Maybe a paladin could duo the camp with a monk or an sk. Not sure that either knight make sense at puppets, but maybe?

I recently found out eejag is duoable with a fully buffed sk and a cleric. Taps don't land on him so I guess a paladin would have it easier -- maybe even solo it with a full soulfire and a reaper. Is there anything that both requires a soulfire to solo and has a valuable enough corpse to justify it?

[Crede]

I wonder what some of the most fun/profitable solo and small man well-geared knight adventures are.

I think either knight could solo large chunks of seb (crypt?). Probably some decent chardok named too. Maybe a4 animals and twins?

For duo camps, I've had a good experience at fungi king with an sk on my ench. Maybe a paladin could duo the camp with a monk or an sk. Not sure that either knight make sense at puppets, but maybe?

I recently found out eejag is duoable with a fully buffed sk and a cleric. Taps don't land on him so I guess a paladin would have it easier -- maybe even solo it with a full soulfire and a reaper. Is there anything that both requires a soulfire to solo and has a valuable enough corpse to justify it?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Keerarae

Check out Keeraraes profile he has posted videos of his kills. I think chardok is the most Lucrative for a sk. If your goal is to be a solo artist knight I think sk wins out in the end having fd is just so nice. And taps will land on most if not all soloable mobs. Pally does get soul fire clicks loh and better heals but then technically you could just mass stock wort pots.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Keerarae

Check out Keeraraes profile he has posted videos of his kills. I think chardok is the most Lucrative for a sk. If your goal is to be a solo artist knight I think sk wins out in the end having fd is just so nice. And taps will land on most if not all soloable mobs. Pally does get soul fire clicks loh and better heals but then technically you could just mass stock wort pots.

Yeah Keerarae is awesome. It's possible that a full BiS SK with all the toys pulls ahead of a Paladin in the end. There is no Soul Defiler equivalent that Paladins get, for example. I would imagine Soul Defiler edges out SoulFire over time for solo artist tactics, simply because it is much harder to keep a charged SoulFire around.

I guess it would depend on Vivitron's question. Are there any worthwhile solo artist fights that actually need SoulFire + Reaper?

[Crede]

Yeah Keerarae is awesome. It's possible that a full BiS SK with all the toys pulls ahead of a Paladin in the end. There is no Soul Defiler equivalent that Paladins get, for example. I would imagine Soul Defiler edges out SoulFire over time for solo artist tactics, simply because it is much harder to keep a charged SoulFire around.

I guess it would depend on Vivitron's question. Are there any worthwhile solo artist fights that actually need SoulFire + Reaper?

Thinking a mob like khelkar icepaw in velks might require soulfires. Willsapper will likely not land. But I don’t know though, sk would still be able to land plenty of taps. And as I mentioned, you could just stock more wort pots to make up the difference if needed. Not too many knight solo artists out there so if such a list of mobs exists it’s probably pretty small. Most people are probably using more powerful solo classes at that point.

[Vivitron]

Thinking a mob like khelkar icepaw in velks might require soulfires. Willsapper will likely not land. But I don’t know though, sk would still be able to land plenty of taps. And as I mentioned, you could just stock more wort pots to make up the difference if needed. Not too many knight solo artists out there so if such a list of mobs exists it’s probably pretty small. Most people are probably using more powerful solo classes at that point.

I have only tried to slow him tashed, my rough estimate from experience is about 1 in 3 slows land. That would be an impressive knight solo. He puts out a lot of damage.

[Snaggles]

Well raid dps matters because most 6-man kills don’t matter. The game isn’t tough: I’ve been a +1 with rogues, warriors, and clerics. A durable backup tank that does 60dps is sometimes better than a paper bag that does 100.

Melees are all good. A class, B class, C class. I’d rather take an extra 6 self sufficient knights or rangers with decent weapons to an extra 6 shamans or druids.

At this stage bank your dkp and get your hybrid out of the D class dps world ASAP. It’s easy to bump to that next level so don’t buy a shiny mask or pair of gloves if you have any understanding how math works. Weapon, haste, avatar, etc. Then worry about dex or something.

As for solo challenges its not crazy that a SK would pull ahead for tank and spanks. Again...its math. Drain Soul IF it goes the full 6.1 second cast is 55hps/sec plus a DD for 338. I understand it's not quite a 6.1 second cast so the healing per second is even higher. Celestial Cleansing is 1.5 sec cast on a 30 second CD, it heals for 750-875hps...it's basically 30hp/sec. Better mana efficiency, slower rate of return. Plus you can keep a rogue alive on a raid with it...so it's a better spell in many ways.

[Elrood]

The subject of this thread is Paladin vs. Shadowknight DPS. Any discussion thereof is relevant

I'm terrible at this game and know jack shit about the deeper mechanics. Would it be fair to say that a Paladin that's constantly Yaulping, gaining that virtually nonstop attack increase, would make a difference? Or is Yaulp total bullshit?

[Snaggles]

The subject of this thread is Paladin vs. Shadowknight DPS. Any discussion thereof is relevant

I'm terrible at this game and know jack shit about the deeper mechanics. Would it be fair to say that a Paladin that's constantly Yaulping, gaining that virtually nonstop attack increase, would make a difference? Or is Yaulp total bullshit?

I wouldn’t cut yourself short. Most of us don’t know half what we think or a quarter of what we pretend, lol.

Y1-3 are pretty meh. The forth iteration is only 1 mana and gives raw attack along with the standard AC and strength. It’s about the same as a SK with Shroud of Hate and the ranger SoN stacked. Really most non-dwarves in tanking gear even with Focus will barely cap STR with Yaulp4. It gives me like 80 attack at 60 and doesn’t cost you a melee round so it’s good to keep loaded. If only it stacked with the shielding line (Dain hammer or Stave of Shielding), but that’s a minor complaint.

Paladins and SK’s are very equal across the board. Maybe a bit more raid optimized as a pally and more grind group or solo optimized for the SK. Both pretty great at high levels of gear and player skill. They even hold up well these days with Ec gear.

[Pint]

I wonder what some of the most fun/profitable solo and small man well-geared knight adventures are.

I think either knight could solo large chunks of seb (crypt?). Probably some decent chardok named too. Maybe a4 animals and twins?

For duo camps, I've had a good experience at fungi king with an sk on my ench. Maybe a paladin could duo the camp with a monk or an sk. Not sure that either knight make sense at puppets, but maybe?

I recently found out eejag is duoable with a fully buffed sk and a cleric. Taps don't land on him so I guess a paladin would have it easier -- maybe even solo it with a full soulfire and a reaper. Is there anything that both requires a soulfire to solo and has a valuable enough corpse to justify it?

I solo'd eejag on my paladin for a monk alt and it only took loh but my gear is pretty good. I havnt solo'd chardok but I've solo'd all of crypt including the emp and just running between hiero and duke spawn is trivial and decent depending on cloak/bracer rng. I've also solo crawled to the various frog camps for fun but it's not worth it from a farming/pp perspective. Chardok names would be pretty trivial to kill as a paladin but keeping up faction would be a hassle I imagine. Struggling to think of much else that is cool, I solo'd reavers and killed the shm epic mob in com for the sk in shield but again fairly trivial and no real pp in it. Never tried a cliff golem but I imagine a soulfire would make it trivial as well.

[Toxigen]

I watched Sudz destroy some shit when he first got his Palladius.

[Ripqozko]

All this thread to circle back to what I said, they are about equal dps. Sure few things can swing it, but generally they are about the same and both fun.

[Crede]

All this thread to circle back to what I said, they are about equal dps. Sure few things can swing it, but generally they are about the same and both fun.

Except they aren’t equal, unless you’re only talking about raids in which case who cares about knight dps on raids.

Final pet/pets will be 25+ dps edge alone, not even including other dots, multiple taps, etc. if there was a wep you knew would do 25 more dps then Tuna sword people would bust a nut over it. There’s a reason why people say SK are better dps. It’s because they are. No myth or exaggeration about it.

[Ripqozko]

Except they aren’t equal, unless you’re only talking about raids in which case who cares about knight dps on raids.

Final pet/pets will be 25+ dps edge alone, not even including other dots, multiple taps, etc. if there was a wep you knew would do 25 more dps then Tuna sword people would bust a nut over it. There’s a reason why people say SK are better dps. It’s because they are. No myth or exaggeration about it.

Sorry you don't got raid

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Except they aren’t equal, unless you’re only talking about raids in which case who cares about knight dps on raids.

Final pet/pets will be 25+ dps edge alone, not even including other dots, multiple taps, etc. if there was a wep you knew would do 25 more dps then Tuna sword people would bust a nut over it. There’s a reason why people say SK are better dps. It’s because they are. No myth or exaggeration about it.

Exactly. Everybody agrees that Paladins and SKs do the same damage if all you are doing is autoattacking with the same weapon. Otherwise, SKs will do more DPS due to Pet + Banshee Aura + Offensive Spells.

Paladins and SKs are typically soloing/grouping more than they are raiding. They are not DPS classes in raids, and raids simply don't need that many knights. You are probably swapping to another class.

That isn't to say DPS is the only consideration for how well a class operates. Paladins are a great class too. But OP's question is specific to DPS, and SKs will deal more DPS in most scenarios.

[Vivitron]

I solo'd eejag on my paladin for a monk alt and it only took loh but my gear is pretty good. I havnt solo'd chardok but I've solo'd all of crypt including the emp and just running between hiero and duke spawn is trivial and decent depending on cloak/bracer rng. I've also solo crawled to the various frog camps for fun but it's not worth it from a farming/pp perspective. Chardok names would be pretty trivial to kill as a paladin but keeping up faction would be a hassle I imagine. Struggling to think of much else that is cool, I solo'd reavers and killed the shm epic mob in com for the sk in shield but again fairly trivial and no real pp in it. Never tried a cliff golem but I imagine a soulfire would make it trivial as well.

Very cool.

The Chardok faction hits are pretty small. It probably would get tedious if you did a lot of it but you can get a good taste of the zone from maxing faction once.

[Atmas]

This thread is super off the rails now but interesting to hear people's perspectives.

Tempted to make a video of soloing seb entrance down to NG but obviously being level 60 makes a big difference. Plus I've got about BiS gear and weapons that make a huge difference. The truth is I can pacify a lot of stuff in seb before the more MR mobs. Just even having ring 10 is huge.

I feel like a lot of people have no clue about knights in raids. I don't hardcore raid really anymore and I can't exactly speak for SKs but Paladin always felt super useful on raids. I'd tank trash mobs and snap agro made things so much faster. Plenty of times I'd have to pick up dragons when warriors died or be ramp tank. I did a lot of healing. Smart rogues/monks know if you can get a Paly to heal you that's more dps than getting torpor. I also snapped agro on pets, helping enchanters a lot (loss of pet health bars sucked). Finally, knight dps isn't great but it can be decent and present when an extra person of a different class doesn't add much of anything. I remember on a Tunare beating some 55-56 rogues.

As far as soloing goes, without using consumables I can do black reavers, cliff golems, stuff in chardok like KM, BM, DM, OS etc. In seb I can do NG and some other camps, like crypt, I've never tried Emp but I know Pint's done it. Some things like the cliff golem I would proc avatar on a summoned eye before starting the fight.

Also without consumables I've done soloed Lord Rak`Ashiir, Neh`Ashiir, Coercer Q`ioul. I did A3 but never tried A4 because it was always camped. I know Keerarae did A4. I pretty much soloed 4 PoM flowers (not MR). Though these ones can get pretty dicey and there can be a lot of setup. Obviously with soulfire I can do some bigger stuff. One of the last things I really want is a Willsapper to try soloing a few more things. Interestingly there are some things a Paladin has an easier time with because a mob might be super resistant and their mana goes towards healing.

Up to you guys how you want to classify Regal Band of Bathezid it's rechargable for free. I don't NEED it for anything in this list but I use it and it helps a lot having a 35 damage shield because it stacks with Ring 10.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I feel like a lot of people have no clue about knights in raids. I don't hardcore raid really anymore and I can't exactly speak for SKs but Paladin always felt super useful on raids. I'd tank trash mobs and snap agro made things so much faster. Plenty of times I'd have to pick up dragons when warriors died or be ramp tank. I did a lot of healing. Smart rogues/monks know if you can get a Paly to heal you that's more dps than getting torpor. I also snapped agro on pets, helping enchanters a lot (loss of pet health bars sucked). Finally, knight dps isn't great but it can be decent and present when an extra person of a different class doesn't add much of anything. I remember on a Tunare beating some 55-56 rogues.

The thing about Knights in raids is simply that most big guilds have enough Warriors to cover both main tanking and off tanking. So typically a Paladin is used for SoulFire/Divine Strength, and SKs are used for some specific pulling scenarios in specific zones, like VP. I am not saying Paladins/SKs can't be useful in raids as offtanks. I am not saying Knights are not used as offtanks in raids. I am simply saying the P99 meta doesn't support Knights very well. Generally speaking if you need more healing, log a cleric. If you need more DPS, log a rogue. If you need FD, log a Monk/Necro. If you need tanks, log a Warrior.

When a Paladin/SK is offtanking, the raid is not concerned about their DPS. You can do zero DPS and have zero complaints, as long as you kept the trash off the squishies. That is why raid DPS isn't very relevant to this discussion. Obviously all DPS helps kill a mob, but when you are healing other people, casting spells to get agro off other players, etc., you aren't doing DPS. That is fine, because your job is not to DPS.

I am not saying Paladins do poor DPS either. My SK does 50-60 DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge self buffed with just auto attack and procs. Paladins and SKs do the same auto attack damage, so both Paladins and SKs can probably push closer to 70+ DPS with Tunare/Vulak weapon and raid buffs. That's honestly not bad.

DPS is not the only factor that goes in to how well a class works. I don't think anybody is saying Paladins suck because they have lower DPS thank SKs. Paladins like yourself and others have done some very impressive solo stuff, and we aren't trying to downplay those capabilities.

[Ripqozko]

The thing about Knights in raids is simply that most big guilds have enough Warriors to cover both main tanking and off tanking. So typically a Paladin is used for SoulFire/Divine Strength, and SKs are used for some specific pulling scenarios in specific zones, like VP. I am not saying Paladins/SKs can't be useful in raids as offtanks. I am not saying Knights are not used as offtanks in raids. I am simply saying the P99 meta doesn't support Knights very well. Generally speaking if you need more healing, log a cleric. If you need more DPS, log a rogue. If you need FD, log a Monk/Necro. If you need tanks, log a Warrior.

When a Paladin/SK is offtanking, the raid is not concerned about their DPS. You can do zero DPS and have zero complaints, as long as you kept the trash off the squishies. That is why raid DPS isn't very relevant to this discussion. Obviously all DPS helps kill a mob, but when you are healing other people, casting spells to get agro off other players, etc., you aren't doing DPS. That is fine, because your job is not to DPS.

I am not saying Paladins do poor DPS either. My SK does 50-60 DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge self buffed with just auto attack and procs. Paladins and SKs do the same auto attack damage, so both Paladins and SKs can probably push closer to 70+ DPS with Tunare/Vulak weapon and raid buffs. That's honestly not bad.

DPS is not the only factor that goes in to how well a class works. I don't think anybody is saying Paladins suck because they have lower DPS thank SKs. Paladins like yourself and others have done some very impressive solo stuff, and we aren't trying to downplay those capabilities.

Riot Def uses knight tanks for trash clearing not wars

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Riot Def uses knight tanks for trash clearing not wars

Vanquish did too. Again, I am not saying Knights are never used. It's just that more people tend to make Warrior alts that actually get geared and leveled up to 60.

Typically the Knights that are offtanking are people who main Knights in raids. Those people are awesome, I have nothing against them.

But they are the minority, and if they are not actively raiding then most people won't be able to log in as a fully geared Knight to take their place. It's more likely that someone has a Paladin as a SoulFire bot (probably not very tanky), or a Warrior alt who is tanky.

[AgKnight]

Regarding the SK/pal dps, the SK have a slight edge due to having more offense skill (but lower piercing skill to compensate) also their spells are generally more offensive and there's potentially a pet, but it's a marginal edge in raid with most boss being really hard to hit with spell and having ae rendering pets not really useable... The edge is bigger in exp group, but the paladin bring to the table some healing power. The classes are definitely not having the same ups/down but they are rather similar in term of tankiness and dps...

[Ripqozko]

rather similar in term of tankiness and dps...

Yup exactly

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Regarding the SK/pal dps, the SK have a slight edge due to having more offense skill (but lower piercing skill to compensate) also their spells are generally more offensive and there's potentially a pet, but it's a marginal edge in raid with most boss being really hard to hit with spell and having ae rendering pets not really useable... The edge is bigger in exp group, but the paladin bring to the table some healing power. The classes are definitely not having the same ups/down but they are rather similar in term of tankiness and dps...

Yup exactly

With my pet alone I am dealing 20% more DPS over a Paladin with equivalent gear. That isn't a trivial amount, and OPs question is regarding DPS.

[Ripqozko]

With my pet alone I am dealing 20% more DPS over a Paladin with equivalent gear. That isn't a trivial amount, and OPs question is regarding DPS.

Op didn't say in raids or groups, sorry you don't got raid. Imagine other people disagreeing with you other then me

[Insaiyan]

Let’s go Lobtik!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Op didn't say in raids or groups, sorry you don't got raid. Imagine other people disagreeing with you other then me

I am not sure why you keep bringing up raids. You are bringing Knights to tank, not to DPS. You care about AC/HP/Resists. No raid is going to ask to see your Tunare Sword or Vulak Axe when tanking.

Knight DPS is relevant in solo/group content, where you can use pets and spells.

[Crede]

With my pet alone I am dealing 20% more DPS over a Paladin with equivalent gear. That isn't a trivial amount, and OPs question is regarding DPS.

Given a max 58 pet can put up like 30 dps, it’s close to a 50% boost which is pretty insane. Unfortunately most people don’t realize this, because sk pets do suck up until lvl 52. Not to mention, it’s an extra 1400 hp extension of yourself with double fungi regen. I used mine to eat HTs in HS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Given a max 58 pet can put up like 30 dps, it’s close to a 50% boost which is pretty insane. Unfortunately most people don’t realize this, because sk pets do suck up until lvl 52. Not to mention, it’s an extra 1400 hp extension of yourself with double fungi regen. I used mine to eat HTs in HS.

I am using the 58 pet, but it was only doing about 12 DPS with the few mobs I parsed. This was with strengthen death. Granted, I only parsed a few mobs, so it isn't a huge data set.

Are you using a pet weapon?

I do love using the pet for eating HTs, saves a lot of HP in zones like HS, and you don't need to waste an eye.

[Crede]

I am using the 58 pet, but it was only doing about 12 DPS with the few mobs I parsed. This was with just strengthen death as a buff.

Are you using a pet weapon?

I do love using the pet for eating HTs, saves a lot of HP in zones like HS, and you don't need to waste an eye.

I think snagges has the parse. Deadwood staves are a nice throwaway for these. Your pet was 2nd worst as well. Those 4 levels would make a big difference.

Either way, pally/sk raid dps who cares. Sk win in groups/solo, which is all that is truly relevant to a knight because if you’re depending on knight raid dps you’ve already lost.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think snagges has the parse. Deadwood staves are a nice throwaway for these. Your pet was 2nd worst as well. Those 4 levels would make a big difference.

Yeah I would be happy to be wrong about the pet DPS. More is better! But I think the point still stands. A 20% boost is a non-trivial increase to DPS. 50% is even more non-trivial. Both DPS differences are enough to throw out the claim that Paladin and Shadowknight DPS are the same in most situations outside of raiding.

[trees]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have a question I was hoping to have answered. I don't mean to defile OP's post with a change of topic, but the information and discussion in this thread seem quite good.
I am returning to p99 after quite the break (never raided). The only two classes I am considering are SK or Pally - I am almost exclusively a solo player - I may get into casual raiding to finish epics etc but nothing super hardcore.
Not targeting specific solo artist kills but what class do you think solo crawls dungeons better (including some lesser names), think Seb, HS, Chardok etc.

[Crede]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have a question I was hoping to have answered. I don't mean to defile OP's post with a change of topic, but the information and discussion in this thread seem quite good.
I am returning to p99 after quite the break (never raided). The only two classes I am considering are SK or Pally - I am almost exclusively a solo player - I may get into casual raiding to finish epics etc but nothing super hardcore.
Not targeting specific solo artist kills but what class do you think solo crawls dungeons better (including some lesser names), think Seb, HS, Chardok etc.

Really depends. If you can get creative with fear kiting then sk. But overall I’d say Prob pally. Sk might pull ahead at 60 with gear but pally gonna be more powerful throughout. Go with a high cha race and put starting points into cha. Or if you go dorf still go cha and supplement with additional cha items for lulls. If you are the type that frequently needs to afk though then sk would be better for that with fd

[AgKnight]

With my pet alone I am dealing 20% more DPS over a Paladin with equivalent gear. That isn't a trivial amount, and OPs question is regarding DPS.

Yep, no trivial amount but that's almost only valid out of raid, and in single group, when your healing is limited the extra healing might worth it, when not, SK clearly are better for pug...

[Jimjam]

Sk can pbaoe.

[Pint]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have a question I was hoping to have answered. I don't mean to defile OP's post with a change of topic, but the information and discussion in this thread seem quite good.
I am returning to p99 after quite the break (never raided). The only two classes I am considering are SK or Pally - I am almost exclusively a solo player - I may get into casual raiding to finish epics etc but nothing super hardcore.
Not targeting specific solo artist kills but what class do you think solo crawls dungeons better (including some lesser names), think Seb, HS, Chardok etc.

If you really want to solo on this server fresh and this late in the game and you have no intention of getting solid gear then don't choose sk or paladin

[Jimjam]

If you really want to solo on this server fresh and this late in the game and you have no intention of getting solid gear then don't choose sk or paladin

I'm doing a character using only items that are purchasable from vendors' default inventories.

I chose Shadow Knight for this gimmick.

[Snaggles]

I solo'd eejag on my paladin for a monk alt and it only took loh but my gear is pretty good. I havnt solo'd chardok but I've solo'd all of crypt including the emp and just running between hiero and duke spawn is trivial and decent depending on cloak/bracer rng. I've also solo crawled to the various frog camps for fun but it's not worth it from a farming/pp perspective. Chardok names would be pretty trivial to kill as a paladin but keeping up faction would be a hassle I imagine. Struggling to think of much else that is cool, I solo'd reavers and killed the shm epic mob in com for the sk in shield but again fairly trivial and no real pp in it. Never tried a cliff golem but I imagine a soulfire would make it trivial as well.

I missed this, thanks Pint.

Admittedly my pally isn’t BiS but I haven’t tried much solo crawling. Most of my past assumptions were CC wouldn’t keep up with the damage for most of these spawns compared to Drain Soul. Outside a few instances it’s cool a Pally can still kill this stuff (and I’m glad to be wrong).

I might have to pick up a Dawn spear for Seb…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yep, no trivial amount but that's almost only valid out of raid, and in single group, when your healing is limited the extra healing might worth it, when not, SK clearly are better for pug...

Again, I am not sure why you are bringing up raid DPS for a class that is not a raid DPS class, and is often swapped to another class. It is like saying Mage DPS is bad because Mages don't use their pets in raids.

Both Paladins and Shadowknights are great in groups. OP is asking about DPS, and Shadowknights deal more DPS.

[Pint]

I missed this, thanks Pint.

Admittedly my pally isn’t BiS but I haven’t tried much solo crawling. Most of my past assumptions were CC wouldn’t keep up with the damage for most of these spawns compared to Drain Soul. Outside a few instances it’s cool a Pally can still kill this stuff (and I’m glad to be wrong).

I might have to pick up a Dawn spear for Seb…

It's all about high ac when you go back to kunark to fight that stuff, they do surprisingly little DPS. I have the one hander for that proc and it's cool but often times annoying to wait on. The must haves are a tash stick and anklesmasher.

[Mendo]

I solo'd eejag on my paladin for a monk alt and it only took loh but my gear is pretty good. I havnt solo'd chardok but I've solo'd all of crypt including the emp and just running between hiero and duke spawn is trivial and decent depending on cloak/bracer rng. I've also solo crawled to the various frog camps for fun but it's not worth it from a farming/pp perspective. Chardok names would be pretty trivial to kill as a paladin but keeping up faction would be a hassle I imagine. Struggling to think of much else that is cool, I solo'd reavers and killed the shm epic mob in com for the sk in shield but again fairly trivial and no real pp in it. Never tried a cliff golem but I imagine a soulfire would make it trivial as well.

It's been forever since I've played my Sexknight but I solo'd many of the Chardok named mobs with ease.

One of my favorite things about the SK was the ability to faction quickly. I'd get my chardok or giant or whatever faction up super fast by grabbing 25 mobs and face tanking them while doing PBAOE spells to down them quickly.

I never really thought of using the knight as DPS really though. My SK was for creating big ass trains, doing some cool pulls, tanking every now and then. Laying down an FD right as the dragon died so I wouldn't lose faction.

[ya.dingus]

cause they do.

[Naethyn]

Knights are more useful on raids now than they have ever been while I have been playing here. VP, Vox, anything that doesn't flurry in tov. Knights are just better at handling mobs with that much dps on it.

[ya.dingus]

People act like its hard to solo in this game as any class. Its laughable. Sure, do you have to play smart, shoot for camps or wander spawns that roam, and whatnot? Sure.

Ive leveled 2 different sks now using ssf and one buying merch from ec and its not hard. Especially when you snag ez stat heavy gear like crusty, and haste and weapons that are now dirt cheap.

As for ssf, banded goes a long damn way, and is a great intro before you upgrade to bronze or steel or whatnot ( which you dont have to now that we have access to tons of ez camps that drop stat gear or quests ).

Sk is a fine starter choice to level as. Just cause these clowns arent hitting bard levels of solo speed thinking its bad just means they lack any real kimchi status in leveling your char. Pay no heed to these milquetoast nances who claim theyre everquest players.

And no, its not more efficient to level a whole damn nother class to gear out the one you wanna start playing.

Just play the one you want, and pickup groups, and farm plat camps on the way and youll have reached your goal faster than going about it the round about way.

Grinding on a slower, but preferred class will always be the better option than playing one you only tolerate because it makes cash. Thats how you get burnt out.

These bozos wont admit this is a marathon not a sprint. They probably never played a grind mmo in their lives outside of their friends pling them to max.

Ill go level a damn ssf iksar warrior right now to prove the point. People already doing it on Dark elves and Gnomes.

[Troxx]

Pal/SK dps is very similar. Which does more depends on gear. Geared equally and in an area where you can’t (or aren’t for whatever reason) use a pet - they’re nearly identical.

If gear is equal and pet is used, the difference is basically the pet’s dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pal/SK dps is very similar. Which does more depends on gear. Geared equally and in an area where you can’t (or aren’t for whatever reason) use a pet - they’re nearly identical.

If gear is equal and pet is used, the difference is basically the pet’s dps.

You can also include Banshee Aura in any situation where the SK is not grouping with a class that has a better damage shield to cast on them. Banshee Aura stacks with Ring 8-10, so you are getting an additional 6 DPS or so while tanking unslowed mobs.

Shroud of Death/Undeath is also giving you a bit of extra DPS, it procs for 50 damage each time.

SK's will have ~7.5 more DPS over a Paladin with Banshee Aura and Shroud of Death/Undeath when they are tanking unslowed mobs.

If you are a big race, you could add a bit more DPS from Slam.

As you say, when pets are added into the mix, you also get the Pet's DPS. The pet does around 12-15 DPS with self buffs. It can go higher with better buffs and pet weapons.

You are correct that SK's and Paladins will do identical damage in any situation where they are only autoattacking, have identical damage shields, are fighting a mob that is immune to lifetap, and pets are not allowed. Both classes are on the same damage tables, and have access to the same BiS weapons.

[Ennewi]

Piercing is the one exception, but then the best knight weapons are 2hs. Still worth considering if in a guild that has the ability to take out trips and ring war, but not vulak/tunare outside of draft, as the former provide very decent 2h piercing weapons. Even then though, there's a lot more time to obtain BiS than in the classic trilogy.

[Troxx]

Piercing is the one exception, but then the best knight weapons are 2hs.

The best are better but the best 2hs aren’t much better than the best piercing.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Great_Spear_of_Dawn

That’s why my paladin alt uses. His dps (for a knight) is absolutely nuts. Bonus fries abound when hunting undead. 725 nearly unresistable dmg (20dps) and with its duration and decent dexterity - it’s got a lot of uptime. Delay is in a sweet spot for dmg bonuses and it’s slow enough to get most casts off between swings.

There are only 5 other weapons in game with as good or better ratio. The only 3 I would consider using are rocksmasher (looks cool, 41% haste, and hp), tunare sword, and vulak axe.

Also consider that the casual knight’s BotB is Narandi lance and paladins get that sweet 225 skill cap vs 210 for sk.

You can also include Banshee Aura in any situation where the SK is not grouping with a class that has a better damage shield to cast on them.

Dmg shields are always nice but this assumes nobody else has a better DS to cast on you, you don’t want to use a DS potion when another DS isn’t an option, and that the mobs are unslowed.

That’s a lot of assumptions.

Shroud of Death/Undeath is also giving you a bit of extra DPS, it procs for 50 damage each time.

A handy proc indeed but don’t conflate the dmg output it does. Buff procs fire about 2x a minute regardless of dexterity - so that’s 1.66 dps. Fairly confident level 60 Yaulp buff will net you greater returns than that on white damage alone.

So yeah - Knight dps is fairly identical. The difference is really only the pet, and only if the pet is summoned, and only to the extent to which that the pet is buffed.

How often have we SKs summon their pets? Pretty rarely.

[Ennewi]

The best are better but the best 2hs arenÂ’t much better than the best piercing.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Great_Spear_of_Dawn

ThatÂ’s why my paladin alt uses. His dps (for a knight) is absolutely nuts.

Same. Helps that the proc also isn't situationally problematic, like the flamberge root at ring war. Spear really only lacks raw HP, otherwise it's a high value dkp bargain bin alternative.

Bonus fries abound when hunting undead. 725 nearly unresistable dmg (20dps) and with its duration and decent dexterity - itÂ’s got a lot of uptime.

Yep. Occasionally it sees resists against mobs like Verix, some of the hate minis and what not, but regular undead melt pretty fast and it feels satisfying to have a DoT proc as a paladin while also being able to HoT oneself. If only those yellow text messages were still in game.


Also consider that the casual knightÂ’s BotB is Narandi lance and paladins get that sweet 225 skill cap vs 210 for sk.

Aye, just what I was referring to which is still hard to make sense of in terms of overall class theme. Ignoring the fact that necromancers can wield piercing weapons and clerics cannot, SKs look to have a larger array of piercing weapons to choose from, and good ones at that—thex dagger, dark spear of venom, shard of night, ikatiar's stinger, vyemm's fang, feverblade—which paladins are excluded from wielding. And even the embalmer's skinning knife, with its proc being less useful to SKs since they apparently also have a lower bind wound skill than paladins; that difference makes some sense though.

[Troxx]

Yeah I never understood why SKs didn’t get the same piercing caps paladins did.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How often have we SKs summon their pets? Pretty rarely.

If you are soloing or grouping you have your pet out pretty often. This is where Knight DPS matters the most.

In raid situations where you are tanking (and cannot use your pet), an SK/Paladin is not being judged on their DPS output. It doesn't really matter how much DPS you are doing.

Yeah I never understood why SKs didn’t get the same piercing caps paladins did.

Same. It's a strange decision. I guess they really wanted SK's to use 2H swords, which match their fashion better. I can see someone thinking a lance is more of a Paladin weapon.

[Troxx]

If you are soloing or grouping you have your pet out pretty often. This is where Knight DPS matters the most.

Across all the groups across all my characters 1-60, I can honestly say I’ve only only rarely seen SKs do it in groups.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Across all the groups across all my characters 1-60, I can honestly say I’ve only only rarely seen SKs do it in groups.

I use my pet often in groups, even when pulling. It isn't difficult to keep the pet in camp when you are pulling.

My guess is a lot of SK's are just lazy about bone chips. This makes people less likely to summon a pet when they only have a few chips on them.

[Pint]

Does banshee aura stack with ragefire arms? Also paladins get a self buff 65 dmg dd proc that offsets the advantage of the sk tap proc buff line id imagine

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Does banshee aura stack with ragefire arms? Also paladins get a self buff 65 dmg dd proc that offsets the advantage of the sk tap proc buff line id imagine

That is a good point, I forgot about both of those. Ragefire arms don't stack with banshee aura, so banshee aura is going to be 3 extra damage over ragefire arms.

So pet will be the main factor. As I said, the pet is about 12-15 DPS self buffed. My SK with Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge is doing around 60 DPS self buffed with 54% haste, so pet is about a 20% damage boost. More if you give it a good weapon and/or other player buffs.

[Crede]

That is a good point, I forgot about both of those. Ragefire arms don't stack with banshee aura, so banshee aura is going to be 3 extra damage over ragefire arms.

So pet will be the main factor. As I said, the pet is about 12-15 DPS self buffed. My SK with Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge is doing around 60 DPS self buffed with 54% haste, so pet is about a 20% damage boost. More if you give it a good weapon and/or other player buffs.

I agree, the pet IS the main factor. The 52/58 sk pets kick ass, especially the 58 one. Solid dps, and good for eating HTs too. This should not be ignored when comparing pally vs sk dps.

[Ripqozko]

I agree, the pet IS the main factor. The 52/58 sk pets kick ass, especially the 58 one. Solid dps, and good for eating HTs too. This should not be ignored when comparing pally vs sk dps.

For grouping sure, imagine a whole side that you don't do called raiding. The sk pet won't be there. Hope that helps.

[Toxigen]

For grouping sure, imagine a whole side that you don't do called raiding. The sk pet won't be there. Hope that helps.

In which case paladood is objectively better because muh soulfires.

[Crede]

For grouping sure, imagine a whole side that you don't do called raiding. The sk pet won't be there. Hope that helps.

Imagine thinking hybrids matter in raids. Better off logging your war, cleric, or rogue. I raided for years on live. There's no secret about it. Velious is far easier than later expansions which actually required skill & gear.

[Ripqozko]

Imagine thinking hybrids matter in raids. Better off logging your war, cleric, or rogue. I raided for years on live. There's no secret about it. Velious is far easier than later expansions which actually required skill & gear.

They do all the trash clear tanking and kunark, they tank a lot. Just shows how out of date you are. Hope that helps .

[Crede]

They do all the trash clear tanking and kunark, they tank a lot. Just shows how out of date you are. Hope that helps .

Again, they don't matter. Can win without em. Hope that helps.

[Ripqozko]

Again, they don't matter. Can win without em. Hope that helps.

Nope we want them sorry

[Jimjam]

Yeah I never understood why SKs didn’t get the same piercing caps paladins did.

Its because sk had legacy piercing skill from being able to use daggers.

Paladins didn’t have the skill until lances were introduced in velious, a ‘noble and heroic’ weapon which is imo why they got such a high skill cap - so they could be arthurian style paladins saving the day.


Even if lances being 2 handed, used on foot and not coupled with shields even made sense.

[Ennewi]

Again, they don't matter. Can win without em. Hope that helps.

I used to think this but knights have become a mainstay for quite a few targets, esp burndown Kunark targets. Raids need DPS to be able to go full bore ASAP without the mob turning and dropping melee DPS, or ping ponging between slowers/nukers.

In retrospect, SKs ought to have received harmshield but DA idols are cheap, and now there's also protection of the dain. Paladins having DA innately and sanctification allows them to run in and trigger the initial AE, then disc to avoid dying to subsequent AEs while heals are landing. Similar deal with rangers hitting weaponshield while backpedaling Venril Sathir.

Snap aggro takes a shortcut to the loot where otherwise it could be a detour. It's not like warriors don't have access to snap aggro, but it is costly and not the easiest to replace.

[Troxx]

In which case paladood is objectively better because muh soulfires.

Paladood is simply better in most all instances regardless of pet, not just that case.

Their toolkit is objectively top tier for a plate wearing tank. It is overpowered bordering on obscene. The only situation that favors the sk is when you legitimately and routinely need the tank to use FD - which frankly is not often.

[Vexenu]

Their toolkit is objectively top tier for a plate wearing tank. It is overpowered bordering on obscene. .
A lot of people still sleep on this for some reason. A tank who can grab instant agro, root, cast stuns for days, heal, paci pull, emergency LoH, emergency Soulfire CH, spam mana free heals, 90% rez, etc...

Like, are you kidding me? This is without question one of the strongest classes in the game. A good Paladin completely trivializes basically all groupable content, and turns what are typically the most dangerous areas in EQ (densely packed, caster heavy dungeons) into extremely safe environments for their group. There's simply no other class that is capable of carrying a group on his back like a Paladin can. SKs are kinda cool (great pullers, CoS is fun, etc...) but anyone who thinks they are even half the group tank a Paladin is... well, they're smoking something good. They're perfectly capable tanks in the sense that they can reliably hold agro, but beyond that the Paladin absolutely runs away with it in terms of the added utility and safety he brings to the group.

[Naethyn]

Peak paladin is going to be on PQ using a hopebringer and a shield of strife with aa from both caster and melee.

[Lune]

A lot of people still sleep on this for some reason. A tank who can grab instant agro, root, cast stuns for days, heal, paci pull, emergency LoH, emergency Soulfire CH, spam mana free heals, 90% rez, etc...

Like, are you kidding me? This is without question one of the strongest classes in the game. A good Paladin completely trivializes basically all groupable content, and turns what are typically the most dangerous areas in EQ (densely packed, caster heavy dungeons) into extremely safe environments for their group. There's simply no other class that is capable of carrying a group on his back like a Paladin can. SKs are kinda cool (great pullers, CoS is fun, etc...) but anyone who thinks they are even half the group tank a Paladin is... well, they're smoking something good. They're perfectly capable tanks in the sense that they can reliably hold agro, but beyond that the Paladin absolutely runs away with it in terms of the added utility and safety he brings to the group.

Let's not get carried away. In a realistic day to day group setting you're going to have a cleric that brings most of that utility. Ench is as good if not better at locking down casters, coupled with other utility and top tier dps, and undoubtedly has to be present for paladin to even function without constant medding. Lay hands and soulfire are good group and raid utility and wipe-stoppers, but there aren't enough Lucan's to go around to do it consistently in groups.

Paladins were probably the weakest class pre-Velious. End game velious they are certainly improved, but nowhere near one of the strongest classes in game. Enchanters, clerics, monks, shamans are just in a league of their own.

[PatChapp]

I would group with a paladin over an SK 100% of the time.
While they aren't the superheroes as described above,just having a tank that can act as backup heals is worth the small loss of DPS vs an SK with a pet.

[Vexenu]

Let's not get carried away. In a realistic day to day group setting you're going to have a cleric that brings most of that utility. Ench is as good if not better at locking down casters
You basically prove my point here. The Paladin is bringing a large portion of the benefits of an Enchanter and a Cleric, combined with tanking and modest DPS. Can an SK or Warrior make the same claim? Even the suggestion is risible.

[Troxx]

Ench is as good if not better at locking down casters, coupled with other utility and top tier dps, and undoubtedly has to be present for paladin to even function without constant medding.

I find it funny you started your post with “let’s not get carried away” and then said what I highlighted in red.

Flash of light is 12 mana
Low level stun is 35 mana
Low level root is 30 mana
Lull is 10 mana and works fine in a lot of areas

Playing a paladin *functionally* as a tank is actually pretty inexpensive mana wise. If I’m playing my paladin without clarity or PoTG in a faster tempo group I just roll into efficiency mode and keep my mana floating higher in the 70-85+ range to have some reserve for the “oh shit” moments. And yeah groups without enchanters typically are going to have more med time or spaced out and less complicated pulls. There’s plenty of time to pop a squat here and there to cover those super expensive level 1, 5, and 9 cleric spells.

I mean … let’s not get carried away here :p

[Lune]

I find it funny you started your post with “let’s not get carried away” and then said what I highlighted in red.

Flash of light is 12 mana
Low level stun is 35 mana
Low level root is 30 mana
Lull is 10 mana and works fine in a lot of areas

Playing a paladin *functionally* as a tank is actually pretty inexpensive mana wise. If I’m playing my paladin without clarity or PoTG in a faster tempo group I just roll into efficiency mode and keep my mana floating higher in the 70-85+ range to have some reserve for the “oh shit” moments. And yeah groups without enchanters typically are going to have more med time or spaced out and less complicated pulls. There’s plenty of time to pop a squat here and there to cover those super expensive level 1, 5, and 9 cleric spells.

I mean … let’s not get carried away here :p

You know what I mean, actually playing a paladin and not a gimped warrior. Think about being tank in a 6 person group, or even a smaller comp, without either crack, potg or bardsong. Those little 30 mana roots and 35 mana stuns, 12 mana FoL's one to three times a fight add up, especially since spell agro was nerfed. Eventually you're going to need to sit and med. Now imagine if you're also pulling and/or trying to use other utility. It's par for the course for non-cracked groups I get that, but I feel like hybrids especially suffer as they're not medding during fights or pulls (if pulling). Nevermind that the person I replied to described paladins spinning eight plates; like without context what class do you feel like this is describing:

completely trivializes basically all groupable content, and turns what are typically the most dangerous areas in EQ (densely packed, caster heavy dungeons) into extremely safe environments for their group.

It's really an advertisement for enchanters. Knights are powered by crack and feel gimped to play without it in active groups. Like yea you can function lol, but not well. Efficiency mode over extended periods basically just means keeping agro and using very little utility. It's a frustrating playstyle for me as I like to use the full breadth of spells. Like I rolled a knight to handle situations while being a melee, not run an ultramanathon

Although that reminds me, paladin/enchanter is a super fun duo

[Stroboo]

when i grp tank on my paladin i just root the mobs then stand super close and cheese agro, mana never an issue, or at least not usually. If i am puller & CC & tank, well sometimes mana can get iffy, but i have narandi crown so that helps.

[enjchanter]

I would never want a warrior in my group if I could have any other tank in my group

[Snaggles]

I would never want a warrior in my group if I could have any other tank in my group

Must be nice to want to group in EQ but also have your pick of so many tank candidates.

[Gloomlord]

I find it funny you started your post with “let’s not get carried away” and then said what I highlighted in red.

Flash of light is 12 mana
Low level stun is 35 mana
Low level root is 30 mana
Lull is 10 mana and works fine in a lot of areas

Playing a paladin *functionally* as a tank is actually pretty inexpensive mana wise. If I’m playing my paladin without clarity or PoTG in a faster tempo group I just roll into efficiency mode and keep my mana floating higher in the 70-85+ range to have some reserve for the “oh shit” moments. And yeah groups without enchanters typically are going to have more med time or spaced out and less complicated pulls. There’s plenty of time to pop a squat here and there to cover those super expensive level 1, 5, and 9 cleric spells.

I mean … let’s not get carried away here :p

Let's not also forget Deepwater Bracer for mana free stun, and Deepwater Vambraces for mana free Soothe.

[Snaggles]

Let's not also forget Deepwater Bracer for mana free stun, and Deepwater Vambraces for mana free Soothe.

It’s ok to pull with but is about as effective as the door that could only hold one person aloat in Titanic.

Cancel magic gloves, arms, helm, BP, legs, all varying degrees of good to great.

[enjchanter]

Must be nice to want to group in EQ but also have your pick of so many tank candidates.

I would also never want a group

[Toxigen]

Although that reminds me, paladin/enchanter is a super fun duo

Indeed. Sleeper strong duo. Arguably faster for pure XP than cleric...just loses tempo once mobs get tougher in the upper 50s.