Paladin: 95 CHA in seb as puller, no issue at 60

[Snaggles]

I spent hours breaking and pulling ABC with my 60 paladin. 95 CHA in my tank setup. I didn’t have a single crit fail on the way down. Once in camp I got Overwhelming Splendor and was about 145 CHA. Over the course of the night I can remember a few at most and I was constantly pacifying 2-4 spawns. The ones that happened were very easy (root the targeted one and drag the rest back). Granted, level 60 but still. If I had swapped out for my CHA gear I could have easily capped, it just wasn’t worth it with a few capable people.

Just another angle on LullQuest. Sure get your CHA set but don’t go saccing your dwarves for fear they won’t be functional past hitting and getting hit.

[Ripqozko]

I spent hours breaking and pulling ABC with my 60 paladin. 95 CHA in my tank setup. I didn’t have a single crit fail on the way down. Once in camp I got Overwhelming Splendor and was about 145 CHA. Over the course of the night I can remember a few at most and I was constantly pacifying 2-4 spawns. The ones that happened were very easy (root the targeted one and drag the rest back). Granted, level 60 but still. If I had swapped out for my CHA gear I could have easily capped, it just wasn’t worth it with a few capable people.

Just another angle on LullQuest. Sure get your CHA set but don’t go saccing your dwarves for fear they won’t be functional past hitting and getting hit.

yea i never had this issue where my human pally couldnt cha into a camp, sta is king.

[Crede]

yea i never had this issue where my human pally couldnt cha into a camp, sta is king.

Human pal has 30 more cha than dwarf.

Dwarf will cap sta with ease with light raiding. If you don’t want to go cha, at least go wis. Sta just a waste on dwarf imo.

[Snaggles]

Human pal has 30 more cha than dwarf.

Dwarf will cap sta with ease with light raiding. If you don’t want to go cha, at least go wis. Sta just a waste on dwarf imo.

In this scenario the only difference between an erudite and dwarf is a Kobold Jester Crown. Annoying if you have a Narandi but if that’s the case you prob have other gear. A loddy and peerless dragon mask is like 24 CHA.

Of course. With dice rolls I could have easily had more issues. And CHA gear is really nice. Just wanted to throw up an example. Our ench had a pet and was almost going to sleep.

[Andyman1022]

HIE best paladin b/c cathat

[Loadsamoney]

And Natures Defender.

[Ripqozko]

Nature's defender sucks

[Loadsamoney]

Nature's defender is awesome

Agreed, it’s basically the epic minus Bash. Looks sweet too.

[Crede]

ND sucks. Just get the pally epic. Looks cooler, and most importantly can 2h bash. It’s also not that hard to get even as a casual.

[Vexenu]

I think most of the nonsense posted about CHA being the primary Paladin stat for awhile now has been driven primarily by hardcore types on their 10th alt who mostly soloed up their uber-geared Paladin twink in dungeons. As if this somehow represents the ideal or even normal playstyle of the class, which primarily excels as a GROUP TANK. Imagine dungeon crawling solo as a Paladin and thinking, "My God, I've truly discovered something incredible here!", when it's actually the EQ equivalent of cutting up your steak with a fork.

[greatdane]

On P99, for whatever reason, mobs become completely unable to resist if you're sufficiently higher level than them and they don't have higher MR than whatever is the default for trash mobs. It wasn't actually like that back in the day, or even to this day on live servers (including TLPs). It's a "feature" unique to P99, or at least to emulated servers. Basically a bug. Using a level 60 character at ABC, it wouldn't have mattered if you had 1 charisma when casting on the mobs that are below whatever the threshold is for a 0% resist chance. Charisma makes a pretty big difference when you aren't casting on mobs that are like 10-15 levels below you. Your assessment of charisma's effects on crit fails isn't really valid outside that particular context.

[Ennewi]

I think most of the nonsense posted about CHA being the primary Paladin stat for awhile now has been driven primarily by hardcore types on their 10th alt who mostly soloed up their uber-geared Paladin twink in dungeons.

Divine Intervention would probably contribute to their argument for dumping starting points into CHA, though so far it seems DI is only being used on Warriors. Maybe at some point it will come into play for paladins.

Imagine dungeon crawling solo as a Paladin and thinking, "My God, I've truly discovered something incredible here!", when it's actually the EQ equivalent of cutting up your steak with a fork.

Snicker bar with a fork and knife.

[Snaggles]

On P99, for whatever reason, mobs become completely unable to resist if you're sufficiently higher level than them and they don't have higher MR than whatever is the default for trash mobs. It wasn't actually like that back in the day, or even to this day on live servers (including TLPs). It's a "feature" unique to P99, or at least to emulated servers. Basically a bug. Using a level 60 character at ABC, it wouldn't have mattered if you had 1 charisma when casting on the mobs that are below whatever the threshold is for a 0% resist chance. Charisma makes a pretty big difference when you aren't casting on mobs that are like 10-15 levels below you. Your assessment of charisma's effects on crit fails isn't really valid outside that particular context.

The level gap between a level 60 and spawns in ABC is no different than a solo paladin though. In the early levels the PC vs NPC level gap is pretty close so Charisma is more noticeable but devoting starting points to help in Unrest is short-sighted. Soloing a melee at some point you are hunting for the easiest dark blues you can find.

This certainly isn’t trying to buck the trend for enchanters farming chardok who cap charisma. It’s also not saying a paladin’s proper lull kit isn’t occasionally useful. Just adding a counter point to so many theorycrafters on the forums saying dwarves are a dysfunctional pick or god-forbid that most new players should add CHA to elves and humans. Especially if one is more of a grouper since you have CC watching your back and the paladin is by far the most durable class that can lull.

[Toxigen]

Level > everything else...and you're doing ABC at 60. If you were 55 it would be an entirely different story.

Now go do King or Juggs with that group and report back on your lull success rate.

[Toxigen]

I think most of the nonsense posted about CHA being the primary Paladin stat for awhile now has been driven primarily by hardcore types on their 10th alt who mostly soloed up their uber-geared Paladin twink in dungeons. As if this somehow represents the ideal or even normal playstyle of the class, which primarily excels as a GROUP TANK. Imagine dungeon crawling solo as a Paladin and thinking, "My God, I've truly discovered something incredible here!", when it's actually the EQ equivalent of cutting up your steak with a fork.

Thats a pretty sharp edge there, careful you don't cut yourself.

Those of us on alt 5, 6, 7, etc with raid gear aren't obligated to carry a full group of shitters that would rather watch netflix and play at 20% capacity...just because you say the class is a group tank.

I got far better xp solo in the highest ZEM dungeons and if I came across a competent player I'd duo it up for a nice change of pace.

[Crede]

Level > everything else...and you're doing ABC at 60. If you were 55 it would be an entirely different story.

Now go do King or Juggs with that group and report back on your lull success rate.

This.

ABC is child’s play. Wis/int/sta are easy to raise in velious. Paci classes should go CHA.

[Philistine]

Thanks for sharing Snaggles! I went STA on my baby Pal and after reading sooo many threads about CHA I'd genuinely wondered if I goofed.

[Ripqozko]

Thanks for sharing Snaggles! I went STA on my baby Pal and after reading sooo many threads about CHA I'd genuinely wondered if I goofed.

You didnt

[Snaggles]

Most solo level 55's arent killing level 45-52's in seb. They are killing low 40's mobs in HK and what-not. So the lull difference is basically the same. Only like a level 30 hunting in the Unrest basement is a bit more dodgy...

A.) Where are you gonna run?
B.) That's a LOT of npcs not far from your level

My point wasnt that 95 CHA is all you need or that I would roll through jugs without issues. So whether I didnt make that clear or it's a Strawman (fun!), good point. Just that my literal experience at 60 in ABC killing blues was a snooze fest. I wish I was 55 because the enchanter would have had more to do.

In most groups a Pally with a few pieces of CHA gear can lull in a pinch. At level 55 they get divine aura on a 15 minute cooldown. Worst case you DA as the ench has a couple ticks by the time you are in camp to figure out what to do. Or people start rooting the melee ncs.

As I've said I literally carry all the CHA tryhard stuff. I can get to about 220 self-buffed and near cap with even Overwhelming Splendor. It's just an arthritic amount of clicking for very little benefit. Past about 150CHA unless you're an ench doing chardok things. In which case...cool. But that's not a pally discussion.

In the end if you have a pally or anyone who wants to pull, just let them. Try to not be a bad and it will work out.


Thanks for sharing Snaggles! I went STA on my baby Pal and after reading sooo many threads about CHA I'd genuinely wondered if I goofed.

No problem! My Erudite put 20 points into STR and I barely cap with decent raid drops. I've also tanked quite a few tough targets. More than I thought I would (never thought I'd even raid again)

[Vexenu]

This.

ABC is child’s play. Wis/int/sta are easy to raise in velious. Paci classes should go CHA.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kobold_Jester%27s_Crown
https://wiki.project1999.com/Crude_Stein
https://wiki.project1999.com/Matchless_Dragonskin_Mask
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cat_Eye_Velium_Necklace
https://wiki.project1999.com/Seahorse_Spine_Bracelet
https://wiki.project1999.com/Froststone_Stein
https://wiki.project1999.com/Luminary_Two_Handed_Sword

That's +119 CHA from some very easily and cheaply acquired items, and doesn't even include rings or earrings, which could also add even more. There is zero universe in which STA or WIS are that trivial to raise and at such minimal expense.

As the OP's post illustrates, CHA is literally only good when you're using Lull in extremely risky circumstances, because on normal blue XP mobs 1) you will very rarely crit fail to begin with, and 2) when you do so, you can usually recover quite easily with your own toolkit and the presumed aid of your groupmates. Maxing CHA on a Paladin basically only makes sense if you're doing something unusual like leveling solo in particularly dangerous dungeons for the sheer thrill and challenge of it. But this is not how most people play the class, and at 60 a Paladin (who will presumably be running around doing group and raid content at that point) gains almost nothing from CHA.

And for the vanishingly small number of times you do need as much CHA as you can get for some absurdly dangerous pull? Carry a bag full of those items above, which by themselves will take even an ugly Dwarf to over 160 CHA.

[Pint]

Pretty sure I alrdy told y'all cha was for enchanters

[Crede]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kobold_Jester%27s_Crown
https://wiki.project1999.com/Crude_Stein
https://wiki.project1999.com/Matchless_Dragonskin_Mask
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cat_Eye_Velium_Necklace
https://wiki.project1999.com/Seahorse_Spine_Bracelet
https://wiki.project1999.com/Froststone_Stein
https://wiki.project1999.com/Luminary_Two_Handed_Sword

That's +119 CHA from some very easily and cheaply acquired items, and doesn't even include rings or earrings, which could also add even more. There is zero universe in which STA or WIS are that trivial to raise and at such minimal expense.
As the OP's post illustrates, CHA is literally only good when you're using Lull in extremely risky circumstances, because on normal blue XP mobs 1) you will very rarely crit fail to begin with, and 2) when you do so, you can usually recover quite easily with your own toolkit and the presumed aid of your groupmates. Maxing CHA on a Paladin basically only makes sense if you're doing something unusual like leveling solo in particularly dangerous dungeons for the sheer thrill and challenge of it. But this is not how most people play the class, and at 60 a Paladin (who will presumably be running around doing group and raid content at that point) gains almost nothing from CHA.

And for the vanishingly small number of times you do need as much CHA as you can get for some absurdly dangerous pull? Carry a bag full of those items above, which by themselves will take even an ugly Dwarf to over 160 CHA.

Dwarves cap stamina pretty easily in velious.

This leaves cha(hardest stat to raise) or wis(diminishing returns 200+).

I’ll take better crit chances than maybe one extra hot in which case you’re probably already dead. But ymmv. Also gear swaps are hella annoying. The less the better. And you know you’re not gonna swap every time. And you’re gonna get crits. And you’re gonna take more hits/deaths.

Also not sure why this is a solo artist thing. So many low man uses for paci. It’s that fucking good.

[Toxigen]

theres a few bad paladins that didnt max cha at creation that are a little upset here

[Vexenu]

Dwarves cap stamina pretty easily in velious.

This leaves cha(hardest stat to raise) or wis(diminishing returns 200+).

I’ll take better crit chances than maybe one extra hot in which case you’re probably already dead. But ymmv. Also gear swaps are hella annoying. The less the better. And you know you’re not gonna swap every time. And you’re gonna get crits. And you’re gonna take more hits/deaths.

Also not sure why this is a solo artist thing. So many low man uses for paci. It’s that fucking good.

It's exceedingly rare to die from a crit fail unless you're doing some wacky and risky solo stuff. That's just a fact. You're a goddamned plate wearing tank who can root, heal yourself, Lay on Hands and cast DA for God's sake. How the in hell are you guys dying from crit fails? Further, in most cases you'll only need to cast lull/paci when first breaking a camp before the spawns are staggered and can be easily single pulled. It's not like you're casting it constantly. Hell, in most cases you probably won't even be pulling to begin with, and this entire argument is completely academic on a server where you can't throw a rock without hitting a Monk or an Enchanter. STA or WIS are both much better investments than CHA.

theres a few bad paladins that didnt max cha at creation that are a little upset here

Rastafire Soulfari
55 Paladin
Human - Rodcet Nife
STR 186
STA 166
AGI 91
DEX 133
WIS 115
INT 102
CHA 119

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BiodegradableEnchantingCaracal-size_restricted.gif

[Trelaboon]

ND sucks. Just get the pally epic. Looks cooler, and most importantly can 2h bash. It’s also not that hard to get even as a casual.

I feel like I’m in the minority in that it was the most annoying epic I’ve done. It wasn’t hard, but really obnoxious.

[jolanar]

https://i.imgflip.com/7jmrlj.jpg

[Toxigen]

Rastafire Soulfari
55 Paladin
Human - Rodcet Nife
STR 186
STA 166
AGI 91
DEX 133
WIS 115
INT 102
CHA 119

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BiodegradableEnchantingCaracal-size_restricted.gif

sorry you dont got FT2 crown which matters far more than max mana pool hope this helps

my paladin solos rat jail in hole, what does your mid 50s paladin do alone?

[Pint]

Itt velious twinks still not realizing they are bad at eq while bragging about soloing rats in their 50s smh

[Vexenu]

my paladin solos rat jail in hole, what does your mid 50s paladin do alone?
By all means, tell us more about your solo-optimized Paladin, and the other weird, pointless and outright goofy shit you must be into. Eating cereal with a hammer? Mowing your lawn while walking backwards? Freestyle rapping over Taylor Swift songs?

"brB bros, just watch me solo this rat wit mUh high charisma and mana hat"

[Toxigen]

By all means, tell us more about your solo-optimized Paladin, and the other weird, pointless and outright goofy shit you must be into. Eating cereal with a hammer? Mowing your lawn while walking backwards? Freestyle rapping over Taylor Swift songs?

"brB bros, just watch me solo this rat wit mUh high charisma and mana hat"

guy the game is like 25 years old if you're still grouping with 5 shitters in KC you're a fuckin idiot

[Gozuk]

Those of us on alt 5, 6, 7, etc with raid gear aren't obligated to carry a full group of shitters that would rather watch netflix and play at 20% capacity...just because you say the class is a group tank.

I got far better xp solo in the highest ZEM dungeons and if I came across a competent player I'd duo it up for a nice change of pace.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread unless your goal is widespread secondhand embarrassment.

[mattydef]

You only put points into CHA for the lullz

[Vexenu]

guy the game is like 25 years old if you're still grouping with 5 shitters in KC you're a fuckin idiot
No one said you had to group in KC. Take a few shitters (or your pals) to a harder zone and carry them with the absurdly OP toolkit Pallies have for tanking group content. Legit one of the most fun classes to play in the game in that role. Or you could stare at rats in the Hole by yourself.

Either way, it's still fucking dumb to pump CHA at char creation. Go look at that list of items I posted. Glamour sword, Jester's Crown and Crude Stein alone are +77 CHA, and one of them you don't even have to equip. It's absolutely trivial to get CHA to a level where lull/paci is extremely reliable on XP mobs, and CHA is literally useless at 60 since you won't be soloing anything. Giving up +100HP or +200ish mana at 60 for an extra 20 CHA you don't even need while leveling is dumb. DUMB.

DUMB

[Snaggles]

This all falls into the Velious trap. The “you will cap every stat” lie. Sure with a few Vulak and Doz slots you will bulk up but true combat stats will only with Avatar. Before the proc agility and dexterity won’t be. Wisdom isn’t effected by that but even at diminishing returns after 205 will give about 6 mana/1pt of Wisdom instead of 11. Even if you overcap Stamina running around with more hps unbuffed isn’t a bad thing. It’s less buffs you need and more slots free (plus it’s one less ask assuming you have a buffer around).

Let’s be real though, most people will never get near this loot. Not.even.close. These people have to pick their downfall and as one of them I rarely worry about my charisma. Top slot root and get good.

[jolanar]

Stats don't matter but also your dumb for putting points into stats I don't like.

[enjchanter]

thanks for the update

[Trelaboon]

I’ve never had any issues with crawling/pulling solo on my Paladin with just over 100 charisma in Seb/HS. I’ve yet to find any reason to try and bump it up any higher than that.

[Tann]

"My God, I've truly discovered something incredible here!", when it's actually the EQ equivalent of cutting up your steak with a fork.

To be fair to the steak, if you sous vide that slab of meat properly you could "cut" it with your finger

[enjchanter]

guy the game is like 25 years old if you're still grouping with 5 shitters in KC you're a fuckin idiot

giga tru

[Vexenu]

tfw you cannot increase your charisma IRL as effortlessly as you can in EQ

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcXpsd2d4bGdybGNuZ2lvYWJkZWQyMzN jejRibWFyajM0ZmpsMmlxbCZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/11NEJQ3pJn7Nkc/giphy.gif

[sajbert]

tfw you cannot increase your charisma IRL as effortlessly as you can in EQ

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcXpsd2d4bGdybGNuZ2lvYWJkZWQyMzN jejRibWFyajM0ZmpsMmlxbCZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/11NEJQ3pJn7Nkc/giphy.gif

You can, before diminishing returns set in.

1) Quit playing p99
2) Shave off neckbeard
3) Shower
4) Get a job
5) Move out of mom’s basement
6) Invest in whole clothing without anime girl prints
7) Work out
8) Meet people, touch grass
9) Do real things that people can relate to
10) Wake up at night hearing the call of the manastone

[Duik]

Castle, the only one putting the Man in Manastone.