Bards, nah

[ya.dingus]

I used to like them, but honestly, they're just not great other than having a whole person tied to a character that's a mobile buff totem.

1 - 2 - 3 - (sometime 4) for resistances in whatever group you're in and that's all you do.

Sure you can "pull", sure you can "buff", but all of these things are done far better by other classes.

We don't need extra stats, we already capped.

Like what's the point?

At least rangers are useful for blade pulling in Ntov.

[Snaggles]

With epic and McVaxius they can add like 60'ish attack to a melee group.
Highest DS with puretone
Max cap MR for tanks who might not have max MR (hp-quest, etc)
Highest mana and hp regen class
Quickest running for zone kites

Plus a whole lot of mid-tier songs to fill in the gap.

[ya.dingus]

That's what i said though, you're literally sacrificing a person to be a mediocre buff totem.

[Snaggles]

Well OOS stacks with everything and slowing stuff is pretty important.

I can see your angle though.

[Ennewi]

Sure you can "pull", sure you can "buff", but all of these things are done far better by other classes.

Eye pull, AE snare if too many adds, can outpull other groups in zone. Debuff with fufil's and oos, particularly useful in the Hole with certain golems. Highsun to strip NPC buffs on spawn. If pulling a caster, delay highsun to interrupt its cast and strip its buffs, then have space to stay oor/los. Mez to interrupt gate/CH in camp. Even if not primary CCer, AE slow/snare helps the enchanter.

Highest regen available which takes pressure off the cleric. If shaman is healing, can mix shield of song in with cantata, allowing them to canni dance at will.

We don't need extra stats, we already capped.

Like what's the point?

Afaik, resists don't have a cap.

Atk, ds, mana, charm dps, backup cc, melee with epic and pog/tov piercer or melodious truncheons. And previously, snap aggro to tank. If stamina was classic, zings would be towards the top of the list as well.

[jolanar]

You can make this argument for most hybrid classes and even a few non hybrids.

[Bardp1999]

Every class aside from warrior and cleric are optional on P99, Bards are jack of all trades, master of none. If you find yourself in a non min-maxed situation and a Bard comes along they can be a great addition to the team. They can also be a huge detriment to the team if they suck or are not active (but that's with anyone I guess - its just more noticeable on Bards I think).

Groups are not always War/Mnk/Rog/Clr/Shm/Enc, there are times when a friendly Bard can slot in just fine (smaller the group the more they shine, same with Necro), not to mention places like Velketors Labyrinth where they can kite 25 mobs and the grp just peels them off for non stop kills and amazing XP.

[Snaggles]

Besides a few core classes, all the rest are being played much differently than live. 20 years of practice and theory. Bards timing their DA songs to dodge certain aoe's etc.

Even people playing and actually trying with druids are doing some great things compared to Live. Lazy people still make these classes look horrible but they make most things look horrible outside of Norrath.

Edit: Not that the bard is one of "those classes". P99 has pushed some like the ranger and pally further than we ever trusted them for on live. At least in my experience during this era.

[Trelaboon]

I used to like them, but honestly, they're just not great other than having a whole person tied to a character that's a mobile buff totem.

1 - 2 - 3 - (sometime 4) for resistances in whatever group you're in and that's all you do.

Sure you can "pull", sure you can "buff", but all of these things are done far better by other classes.

We don't need extra stats, we already capped.

Like what's the point?

At least rangers are useful for blade pulling in Ntov.

You can make this argument for tons of classes, since this argument really only applies to raiding.

Mages are just coth/rod bots
Shamans are buff/slow bots
Enchanters are buff/slow bots
Druids are just for ports/potg, Clerics heal better

So on and so forth.

The entirety of EverQuest’s raid scene is so many classes have an important, but underwhelming job.

Good luck FTEing Gore without a Bard. Have fun clearing Growth, Sky or Fear without a Bard. Have fun killing Yelinak without a Bard. You’re underselling them my man.

[Loadsamoney]

You can make this argument for tons of classes, since this argument really only applies to raiding.

Mages are just coth/rod bots
Shamans are buff/slow bots
Enchanters are buff/slow bots
Druids are just for ports/potg, Clerics heal better

So on and so forth.

The entirety of EverQuest’s raid scene is so many classes have an important, but underwhelming job.

Good luck FTEing Gore without a Bard. Have fun clearing Growth, Sky or Fear without a Bard. Have fun killing Yelinak without a Bard. You’re underselling them my man.

Then can't one also argue that you can take down the toughest Raid bosses without a Warriors mitigation (I.E only Knights as the tanks) or Cleric's CH?

[Trelaboon]

Then can't one also argue that you can take down the toughest Raid bosses without a Warriors mitigation (I.E only Knights as the tanks) or Cleric's CH?

No, you really can’t lol. Good luck dropping AoW without CH or Defensive. I’m not sure what about my comment lead you to believe I was any way saying something like that, because no, the raid scene wouldn’t exist on any serious level without those classes. Especially Clerics.

[Loadsamoney]

No, you really can’t lol. Good luck dropping AoW without CH or Defensive. I’m not sure what about my comment lead you to believe I was any way saying something like that, because no, the raid scene wouldn’t exist on any serious level without those classes. Especially Clerics.

Sorry if I misinterpreted, just read it as though you were making the claim that any class can be dispensed with or have its role filled by another class (for instance, an Enchanter can replace a Bard for haste, slows, mez and mana regen). If that's the case, then it should be true of Warriors (Pally/SK's tanking instead, or even a Ranger in a pinch with Weaponshield) and Clerics as well (Druid/Shamans heals instead).

That's just how I was reading it.

[Toxigen]

bards best pullers w/ eye helm and aoe snare

can go fuckin ham

[Snaggles]

Nobody is going to argue warrior or clerics aren’t needed. That isn’t the point of this thread, it’s if bards deserve a seat at the raid table.

Minus situations aggro tanks are a luxury; warriors can replace knights. We tanked everything with them on live. People just went way slower on dps. Likewise you don’t really need druids for most raids. They are handy for pet charming in fear for CT or in Kael but again that’s more a modern evolution of the concept. I don’t believe in nixing a class but any of these people wouldn’t get critique for swapping out to a wizard or rogue.

AoW or PoG without a bard would be very annoying. Likely not possible at this stage of the progression. Or it would so much worse even a rogue or two would swap to bards.

Ax Toxigen said though so much of this game is outside of raiding. Not just levelling up but adventuring with other 60’s in dungeons, farming, or just running fast while making zoom noises. The min-max game is one to play but the game is more about fun than being “optimal”. If your group can’t do it with a bard instead of a ___ maybe the bard isn’t the problem…

[Toxigen]

bard veddi gud in raid scene

DS for tanks on any unslowable mob is amazing and it certainly gives the clerics a lot more breathing room w/ the mana pumpage...even without doing the pulse song you're still supplying 163 mana / tick with VP lute in a full cleric group. That would take a lot of clerics to replace that 1 bard in a long fight CH chain.

Have fun doing fear and pog w/o bards...then you've got yeli, VP, gore, etc.

Bard was one of the most fun chars to level and I never did a single swarm. Charm solo was alright but the best was being a hyper aggressive puller (eye helm rocks) for strong groups and just using your mana-costing mez for dicey situations. Bard is easily the best puller.

I used to do crazy shit in KC.

[Philistine]

Bards are great! Helm pulling is super fun, and sometimes a little more exciting than I'd prefer :p

It feels pretty cool to be standing in camp doing bard things while continuing to keep the mobs flowing go the group. Lemme just keep that mana/hp/haste/ds/etc rolling while I interrupt that mob's CH I notice is being cast all while my eye is way out there working on getting a pull.

Pretty sweet :)

[wuanahto]

so a few tanks, all clerics, enough enchanters to keep the 50 rogues and 2 monks hasted?