Bard melee

[Selene]

This question was probably asked many times already, but I heard that bards don't really solo with melee and are more spell-casters. If I like going toe-to-toe against mobs, is bard a poor choice?

I guess I'm asking bard players if they play their bard with any significant reliance on melee. I know they mostly charm or swam kite, though fear kiting can be an option. Is it slow to fear kite though, at the higher levels?

Is a ranger much faster in killing things melee than a bard? Because I did notice bards have better defense skill caps than rangers and of course have nice slows on command.

[Loadsamoney]

This question was probably asked many times already, but I heard that bards don't really solo with melee and are more spell-casters. If I like going toe-to-toe against mobs, is bard a poor choice?

I guess I'm asking bard players if they play their bard with any significant reliance on melee. I know they mostly charm or swam kite, though fear kiting can be an option. Is it slow to fear kite though, at the higher levels?

Is a ranger much faster in killing things melee than a bard? Because I did notice bards have better defense skill caps than rangers and of course have nice slows on command.

I prefer this playstyle too, even though I know it's inferior. I don't know if I would call it a poor choice, but it's not what they do best, even though I see Bards as hybrids like Rangers and Knights, not a Caster class.

Most Bards will swarm kite because it's extremely fast and any deaths you accrue from a mistake are overshadowed by the sheer rate at which you grind out EXP. Fear kiting is safer but much more tedious.

Pound for pound, using the Rangers damage shields, Dot'S and nukes, the Ranger will kill faster than the Bard since the Bards DoT's will be tied to their instrument and be fairly weak if they're just singing without the Epic, and Bards don't get Double Attack which is a big hit to their melee DPS, but a Ranger without Fungi will also face more downtime than a Bard because of the damage they're taking in melee, while the Bard can fear kite with little risk to them (Rangers can only fear kite animals, which becomes irrelevant around level 50). Rangers cannot Swarm Kite either, so Bards will still outpace them in the later levels. More mobs per hour, less downtime.

[Saisu]

Bards are the jack-of-all-trades. Yes you can melee, but you’re almost always better off doing something else.

Yes while leveling you twist Fear, Slow, Self-haste, +1 other song and slowly whittle down their health… or you could cast Charm and have two Hill Giants wail on each other for like 80 damage a hit.

Treat melee as a possible strategy in your bag of tricks - but think of bards more as mobile spell casters and you’ll probably get more enjoyment.

For solo melee your better options are Monk/Ranger for offense-based, or Paladin/Shadow Knight for defense-based.

[Videri]

Rangers are considered DPS; Bards aren't. They're capable of doing great damage, usually via swarm kiting or charm shenanigans, but their direct single-target damage doesn't really compare to "DPS" classes such as rogues and rangers and even wizards (burst).

But I'd imagine bards have greater sustain aka less downtime, than almost any other class when soloing. When using their best solo techniques, they don't even take damage. So, once you kill this mob(s), you just start it back up again (unless you have to pee).

Fear-kiting on a bard is indeed pretty slow. You're twisting Slow, Fear, self-haste (or group haste if duoing with a rogue or something), and maybe a DOT; and meleeing...it's not great. But hey, you can always duo.

I keep finding myself saying, "Why are people trying to solo so much?" EQ is a team game. Yes, yes, kids, jobs, AFK at a moment's notice, but still. Once in a while you'll be able to do a nice group.

[Snaggles]

In the lower levels I’m sure it’s easier.

In the 50’s with really good gear, I expect they can go to-to-toe better (albeit slower) than most rangers. Plus if things get sketchy, you often can mez and heal back up faster than most npcs will regen. A ranger will root/snare and bow as a backup plan.

My bard is only 58 with crummy gear. I’ve charmed and fear-kite-dotted the entire time. I’ve only melee’d in tight quarters when I might need to mez/heal…usually lower level weaker targets. I killed that drake in Skyshrine for the key at 56 and it turned into one helluva marathon.

With better gear like a Lute of the Howler, Drums of the Beast, epic and/or tunare/koi dagger, Singing Steel BP, things would be WAY different. Plus I’m sure a better bard player than me :) .

In a group the bard’s priority will be twisting songs and maybe mezzing/charming (if no ench) with melee usually very low priority unless you have the epic. In outdoor zones a ranger will be pulling (like the bard) but mainly meleeing with some infrequent buffing and occasional snaring.

[Loadsamoney]

In outdoor zones a ranger will be pulling (like the bard) but mainly meleeing with some infrequent buffing and occasional snaring.

So Rangers never hit a point where their bow DPS outparses their melee DPS? Their archery AA's in PoP must've been way stronger than I assumed.

[Toxigen]

If you're not into swarming (won't blame you), the best is by charming and using drum dots / fear / snare.

Charm a mob, send it in, drum dot target. When charm breaks, charm the mob w/ the dots on it, drum dot your old charm pet (now target).

Rinse / repeat til both low, use combo of snares / fears / dots to finish both off.

If this is too tough, just get the hang of yo-yo (if in a tight spot) fear / snare kiting a single w/ drum dots.

Bard melee before epic is notoriously bad.

[Selene]

Lol I had no idea that bards fear kite without melee but use their DoT songs instead. So melee is rarely used if ever it seems.

With regards to charming, with all those charm breaks every 18 seconds, it seems like doing it indoors where there are tight quarters, I'm bound to get hit every time the charm breaks. Outdoors i get that selo's and snare will mitigate that risk but indoors charming seems not so safe.

[Crede]

Lol I had no idea that bards fear kite without melee but use their DoT songs instead. So melee is rarely used if ever it seems.

With regards to charming, with all those charm breaks every 18 seconds, it seems like doing it indoors where there are tight quarters, I'm bound to get hit every time the charm breaks. Outdoors i get that selo's and snare will mitigate that risk but indoors charming seems not so safe.

It's very powerful indoors, especially the earlier charm which costs no mana and lasts 4 ticks instead of 3. The latter one costs mana & only lasts 3 ticks so you will go oom fast. For this reason bards make the best dungeon crawlers until lvl 50 or so. Having a fungi helps mitigate some of the damage you take indoors, but if you have the skill they have all the tools needed.

Bard songs per level (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ALoWBAYmrg4MhjpMSlO-SFrZa3n6fvQx_xVFCIDRZGA/edit?hl=en_US&hl=en_US#gid=0)

You can plug in diff mods and see just how much damage your dots will do with instruments, bard melee can't really touch this until you get epic with an 18 instrument mod which means you can melee and get pretty good dot damage which is why bards really shouldn't bother meleeing after lvl 30 or so until they get epic.

[Vivitron]

As far as I can remember my significant solo xp came from pbaoe kiting and the charm method Tox outlines above. Although I think I usually mixed in a little melee to finish the runners. When playing the bard, instead of comparing my melee solo to solo rangers I'm comparing it to those methods.

Running around at 60 seeing what I can solo and what I can farm I've used melee a fair amount. All the gear and level 60 spells help. For example the 60 dot+slow lasts a minute, so you can remove slow from the regular twist and replace it with another dot, netting two dots. Prime hand instruments let you swap them in right as songs land so you can melee and do full dot damage. Lute of the Howler haste, especially added with either a deep sea or epic proc, lets you have spell haste without singing it, making room for another dot if you had been singing haste or just better melee dps if you hadn't.

It also seemed to make sense to melee some in the majority of groups I was in, but that judgment can be sensitive to group makeup / gear / era.

[Vivitron]

It's very powerful indoors, especially the earlier charm which costs no mana and lasts 4 ticks instead of 3. The latter one costs mana & only lasts 3 ticks so you will go oom fast. For this reason bards make the best dungeon crawlers until lvl 50 or so.

I found the key to indoor charming without a fungi was finding camps that were on the low end of the dark blue range. This was mostly to prevent resists: if I had a some charm resists indoors I would get shredded fast. I wouldn't put bard as the best solo dungeon crawlers (enchanter untwinked, maybe monk twinked both seem impressive sub 50), but there were a few spots where I could kill low blues very efficiently.

[Toxigen]

Lol I had no idea that bards fear kite without melee but use their DoT songs instead. So melee is rarely used if ever it seems.

With regards to charming, with all those charm breaks every 18 seconds, it seems like doing it indoors where there are tight quarters, I'm bound to get hit every time the charm breaks. Outdoors i get that selo's and snare will mitigate that risk but indoors charming seems not so safe.

Taking a hit here and there is fine, you have hymn of resto. Its going to happen.

The trick is having that sense of when your charm is going to expire (this comes with practice). You're a bard, you can move while casting. Just start pre-casting the charm while gaining a little distance...ideally your charm spell lands right after the charm breaks.

When I was learning, I would tend to cast my re-charm a bit too early (playing safe). No worries, you just stop your cast and start casting again...the charm IS going to break.

Doing it well in high ZEM dungeons is more about situational and spatial awareness. You can circle strafe in tight spots, avoid getting hit too much, and not aggro more. Obviously its easier to get a handle on this outdoors because it leaves you with ye olde selo's escape plan.

Once you dial it in...it just becomes second nature. People that crutch on GINA for it are shitters.

edit: I forgot to include why its important to charm the mob thats been drum DoT'd. Charm is an aggro wipe. If you re-charm the same mob there's a good chance that one you've been DoTing will stay on you. If you ping pong your charms between two mobs, you're constantly wiping the aggro and the new re-charm will pick up the now-free mob instantly.

Sugz does some pretty insane stuff on his bard:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1155754690
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1232511853

[Alarria]

That is a great post Toxigen. I also have noticed that a lot of bards I've watched videos of use Cantana to heal solo, which makes no sense since the healing is way less than Hymn and the mana regen does nothing.

Also, Sugz is on a different level for bard or enchanter (or necro or druid lol).

Melatunin is fantastic also, and has a lot of awesome solo bard kills on stuff on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/@melatuninthevirtuoso3659

[svevin]

Yeah, when I found out Bards stopped doing melee in later levels, I dropped my 40 Bard and haven't gone back. Up until that point, I had been doing the slow/haste/dot/heal twist with melee and having a great time, but apparently, that isn't sustainable.

[Loadsamoney]

Yeah, when I found out Bards stopped doing melee in later levels, I dropped my 40 Bard and haven't gone back. Up until that point, I had been doing the slow/haste/dot/heal twist with melee and having a great time, but apparently, that isn't sustainable.

It is once you get your Epic.

[Toxigen]

It is once you get your Epic.

How many epics have you acquired?

[svevin]

It is once you get your Epic.

Yeah, and that...is probably a good idea. I am super casual, though, so I doubt I could pull it off.

[Toxigen]

Yeah, and that...is probably a good idea. I am super casual, though, so I doubt I could pull it off.

Yeah don't mind him. He has extremely lofty goals for someone who has zero level 60s and has yet to raid competitively.

While Bard epic is incredible, the class is extremely capable without it.

Solo is great, but they shine even brighter in solid groups. Nobody wants to bard for a bunch of slackers though because it does take quite a bit of key inputs to do your job.

[Loadsamoney]

How many epics have you acquired?

In my dreams? Many.

Yeah don't mind him. He has extremely lofty goals for someone who has zero level 60s and has yet to raid competitively.

There's nothing wrong with having lofty goals to aspire to.

Yeah, and that...is probably a good idea. I am super casual, though, so I doubt I could pull it off.

That has always been my thought train, but everyone is adamant that when I start raiding and accruing DKP, I will be able to bid on and win the White Scales eventually, so there's no reason why you can't too, especially if whatever guild you play with wants you to have your Epic and is willing to help you do it. Dream and dream big, I say.

[Selene]

only reason I asked about bards and melee is because i love dual wielding but found the pure melees really boring. bards basically seem like a variation of spellcasters though much more versatile and active

[Toxigen]

only reason I asked about bards and melee is because i love dual wielding but found the pure melees really boring. bards basically seem like a variation of spellcasters though much more versatile and active

Ranger is what you seek.

[svevin]

I've never even made it to 50! But I did hop on my 40 Bard and solo down a dark blue Froglok Shaman, and it felt great. I

don't know why I let other people's opinions on how I play ruin my perception of how a class feels.

[Crede]

Yea go with ranger if ya want to have good dual wield and have neat utility/spells and not be an sk/pally. Paying for potg will greatly reduce your downtime.

[Toxigen]

I've never even made it to 50! But I did hop on my 40 Bard and solo down a dark blue Froglok Shaman, and it felt great. I

don't know why I let other people's opinions on how I play ruin my perception of how a class feels.

You can play however you want. Just prepare to go it alone if you're not utilizing a META-esque playstyle.

A ranger could Legolas bow kite to 60. See ya in 10 years.

[Selene]

Yep, thanks for the advice guys, really appreciate the wisdom on this board :)

Will have to dust off my old ranger then. I had quit the class for a while even though it is the most fun i've had out of the 6 classes i've tried, because i would get hit way too hard and way too often at level 50 while waiting for my swarmcaller to proc (i usually solo). but no gain without pain i guess

[Loadsamoney]

Yep, thanks for the advice guys, really appreciate the wisdom on this board :)

Will have to dust off my old ranger then. I had quit the class for a while even though it is the most fun i've had out of the 6 classes i've tried, because i would get hit way too hard and way too often at level 50 while waiting for my swarmcaller to proc (i usually solo). but no gain without pain i guess

Rangers have slightly lower skill caps for Dodge/Parry/Riposte then the Knights, so they take a bit more damage in general, but 40-50 is one of the toughest stretches of leveling for hybrids because they lag behind pure classes in offensive skills during that time. Offense and other combat skills like Dual Wield and Double attack are capped at 200 until level 50, which is not the case for Warriors and Monks.

So you kind of just have to suffer it out a bit until the caps rise again, then things stabilize. Having new spells at 49 and every level after that helps their cause too.

[Toxigen]

Yep, thanks for the advice guys, really appreciate the wisdom on this board :)

Will have to dust off my old ranger then. I had quit the class for a while even though it is the most fun i've had out of the 6 classes i've tried, because i would get hit way too hard and way too often at level 50 while waiting for my swarmcaller to proc (i usually solo). but no gain without pain i guess

Have you tried jousting with the swarmcaller? Can root the mob and just step in when the swing timer is ready.

Its not a lot, but will cut down on the amount of hits you'll take before the slow procs.

[Snaggles]

^ this.

Pick easy blues too with less hps. Highkeep nobles instead of drolvarg ravishers. You can bow plunk those dead with ease and without your hand cramping up.

I do like my bard but it’s more a shiny caster at this point (almost 59). Very fun class but definitely doesn’t feel like a ranger.

[Selene]

Jousting until the proc hits, i didn't even think of that! Great advice.

Yea bards sound like they're more like shiny casters who can move while they cast. Doesn't sound like a melee class really...

Is there a way to macro archery hits so that I dont have to hit the range attack button for each arrow?

[Loadsamoney]

^ this.

Pick easy blues too with less hps. Highkeep nobles instead of drolvarg ravishers. You can bow plunk those dead with ease and without your hand cramping up.

I do like my bard but it’s more a shiny caster at this point (almost 59). Very fun class but definitely doesn’t feel like a ranger.

I don't want to say Highkeep Nobles are camped 24/7, but they've been camped pretty much every time I've logged into my Druid to grind the jail guards. Not sure how they fare plat-wise, but they are apparently very high exp for a solo player at 50ish.

[Snaggles]

I don't want to say Highkeep Nobles are camped 24/7, but they've been camped pretty much every time I've logged into my Druid to grind the jail guards. Not sure how they fare plat-wise, but they are apparently very high exp for a solo player at 50ish.

It’s probably a coin toss. HK is dead compared to the old days. Not many places to find. Blue con with 2k hps for a mid 50’s solo grind.

Bards are good too on a 15’ish min repop. Can’t split them with harmony but once staggered those are easy to keep up with.

[Loadsamoney]

It’s probably a coin toss. HK is dead compared to the old days. Not many places to find. Blue con with 2k hps for a mid 50’s solo grind.

Bards are good too on a 15’ish min repop. Can’t split them with harmony but once staggered those are easy to keep up with.

I like Hole entrance. Don't think the earth elementals guarding the entrance or just inside before the pit are camped that often. Decent ZEM, low HP, fairly decent plat with Loam Encrusted armor and granite/speckled shards to vendor.

[Bardp1999]

Rangers with Epic are pretty nasty, they can 50% slow mobs and thier root seems very reliable. Well geared Rangers are one of my favorite partners on any of my chars (monk/shaman/necro).

Bards... ehhhh... from what I read just roll Ranger. Bards can be great but its not because you're meleeing

[Trelaboon]

My Bard is only level 50, but I have a blast with him. All the different play styles really mix it up and can make basically any area fun. Being able to swarm, fear kite, charm kill/kite. Being able to pull at light speed, melee in groups or play a more caster role. I have so much fun dungeon crawling for exp.

Bards are fun because they’re so diverse and every time I log in I can do something different if I want. If I wanted to just be a dual weild melee class with utility, I’d go with the ranger though like others said.

[Toxigen]

I like Hole entrance. Don't think the earth elementals guarding the entrance or just inside before the pit are camped that often. Decent ZEM, low HP, fairly decent plat with Loam Encrusted armor and granite/speckled shards to vendor.

til a named pops

[Veleria]

I am 59 on my bard currently and I have very some high-end melee gear. Melee is an option but it's not particularly optimal. I mostly do it for fun. the best strategy is to charm one monster than have it fight another similar monster and use your abilities to keep them even in health. for pure melee, you will find yourself stuck fighting very low-level monsters since we lack double attack and some defensive skills we are less effective. I use a combination of slowing the mob to reduce incoming damage and hasting myself when I melee but it's not as good as a pure melee class. THe bright side is while we take a bit more damage if you swap to a lute in between fights we can recover faster than other melee classes for the next one.

[Motsu]

As a 60 bard with no raid gear, I can fear/kite kill Yeldema in ~11 minutes, I'd imagine it takes a necro 8 for comparison. Not to mention, no downtime on bard, also I can selo speed and say pull Gafala before the necro was even back to full mana. So yes, fear kiting on bard, is completely viable and one way out of many that a bard can solo and make money.

[busted]

Obviously bards melee won't be as great as other classes that are pure melee with double attack but it's still a viable way of killing and even leveling up. "Battle barding" is a thing and its quite fun.

Aside: Bards damage tables appear to be incorrect right now and should get fixed via https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3607736#post3607736

[jolanar]

If you are twinked fighting in melee is very effective through 40 or 45. Self haste, regen, slow more than make up for lack of double attack. Melee fear kiting is also an option. Grab the werewolf illusion for spell haste to free up a song slot. I have 0 doubts you couldn't push a melee bard to 60 following the same routes that other solo melee follow.

The thing is, it's just going to be significantly slower than other options. But if you are having fun who cares.

Untwinked... probably a waste of time past level 17.

[Moppelchen]

I soloed using fear kiting on my bard up into my 50s. Bard was my first char on green and I managed to save up enough plat for Breath of Harmony and Guardian's Mace by around lvl 40, so then melee dps wasn't too bad. Got my first haste item at 46 at my first Sky raid.

As to pure melee dps at the high-end (i.e. Nature's Melody + Epic with Avatar proc and 41% worn haste), think I parsed around 40dps when I checked (if I remember correctly) without any disc.
So if you add angstlich's, poist dot and slow/dot you can put out decent dps, but definitely not achievable solo or in a small guild.

[Snaggles]

What did you parse that on?
Blue content that’s pretty normal if not low. Most solid melees (non rogues) do like 37-45dps on Dain.

[Vivitron]

What did you parse that on?
Blue content that’s pretty normal if not low. Most solid melees (non rogues) do like 37-45dps on Dain.

Not the person you're responding to but I have done a few parses with the same setup.

I got 26 dps on our last Dain. If I recall correctly the times I meleed Tunare I did high 20s. Those targets seem to have high mitigation or avoidance; I got 44 dps on a good parse vs Eashen.

I think you saw my parse doing up to 52 melee dps against Froglok Foragers, or 97 dps dots+melee. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3572137#post3572137

[Moppelchen]

What did you parse that on?
Blue content that’s pretty normal if not low. Most solid melees (non rogues) do like 37-45dps on Dain.

Was against VP mobs iirc. Think I should do some more parsing again :)

[Snaggles]

Was against VP mobs iirc. Think I should do some more parsing again :)

Ah ok. Yea they certainly can vary a lot per the mob.

For what it’s worth I forgot to equip another weapon and had my 60 pally with a Jeldorin on Dain with VoG. He did 25 dps so that comparison seems pretty accurate.

There are certainly times a bard meleeing in the end game makes a lot of sense and you aren’t giving up anything to do so. May even be making the other team better with that epic proc with adding more personal dps the the meter (about a mage or necro oet, but safer).

The low/mid range or in most solo cases, the jury is still out (for me). My filthy casual 59 bard can count on one hand the solo times it made things better. Not being able to pace with a reverse kited mobs is so nice. Drums all day lol.

[enjchanter]

you will never do good dmg meleeing as a bard

[Tnair]

Additional experience from leveling in Karnor's recently: an instrument bard who regularly charms an add, is doing way more dps than a bard dual wielding.

I support all bards choosing how they want to play though. No shame for doing sub-"optimal" dps and having fun instead.

[Borak]

Well sure, if you're in a situation where you can charm, charm will do more dps. If you're a bard on a Dain raid where Dain is typically pulled to zone, you're being suboptimal if you don't melee, regardless of whether you're in cleric group pumping mana or in tank group. Everyone is bunched into a small area, small enough in fact that both mana songs can hit the clerics while you're in melee range of Dain, so be optimal and start swinging.

[Ripqozko]

Well sure, if you're in a situation where you can charm, charm will do more dps. If you're a bard on a Dain raid where Dain is typically pulled to zone, you're being suboptimal if you don't melee, regardless of whether you're in cleric group pumping mana or in tank group. Everyone is bunched into a small area, small enough in fact that both mana songs can hit the clerics while you're in melee range of Dain, so be optimal and start swinging.

You can charm at dain

[Vivitron]

It's not like charm requires an instrument; you can often melee while charming.

[Ripqozko]

It's not like charm requires an instrument; you can often melee while charming.

Just saying ya can in the spot you were referencing

[Vivitron]

Those thurgb mobs have spicy mr. A bard can solo charm pair-kill them by stacking mr debuffs and swapping with one you charm, but if you just try to charm and recharm one against Dain I think you're going to have a bad time.

[Ripqozko]

Those thurgb mobs have spicy mr. A bard can solo charm pair-kill them by stacking mr debuffs and swapping with one you charm, but if you just try to charm and recharm one against Dain I think you're going to have a bad time.

just charm one of the front guards

[Toxigen]

Let the enchanters charm on dain and enjoy your 5-10 minute AFK pumping clerics.

[Ripqozko]

Let the enchanters charm on dain and enjoy your 5-10 minute AFK pumping clerics.

i agree, it was more cause they used that as reference as a spot. they def can if they really wanted to.