Bard Aggro

[Ennewi]

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412540

Patch Notes: Friday, December 23rd, 2022

Rogean: Bards are now capped at 140 aggro per song/spell/proc in all circumstances.

By most accounts, throughout the classic timeline and beyond, bards were described as having high taunt by way of song. Commonly referred to now as snap aggro, specific songs were known to generate considerably more hate than others, so much so that bards were used as tanks/offtanks. It appears the majority of songs that caused aggro were lower level versions, though there are many comments made post-2001 that suggest other high level songs had a similar effect.

The complaints about their aggro were made regularly enough that the developers were said to have lowered it once while also giving the class Song of Dawn and boosting its defensive skills. Below are a number of those complaints, with a few exceptions, along with guides and detailed accounts describing how aggro was used/managed.


https://web.archive.org/web/20001101042812/http://www.din.or.jp:80/~cai/eq/tips/b_pcomb.html

04:28:12 Nov 01, 2000

2. Bard as Tank
　As mentioned above, Bards can wear armor up to Plate, and it seems hard. But can you be a Tank that attacks the opponent you should defeat first (probably the strongest opponent) and takes on that attack yourself? If you ask me (currently level 27), no . Of course, at lower levels, you can also try to act as a Tank. For example, up to level 25, it might be possible somehow--even though it's far inferior to your main job and you'll have to bear the risk of death. The reason for the number 25 is that the skill cap for the Dodge skill is 125.

　I think that Bard is fatal as a Tank for the following two points.

　　・Only Dodge has defensive skills, and the skill cap is low (Max125)
　　・Other warrior-type characters who don't have much HP themselves

　seem to have at least two defensive skills. Dodge and Parry. At least if the activation probability is the same, than a bird that only has Dodge... how many times longer? So what is Bard's Dodge and supposedly high AC for?--I think both Bard's defense and Dodge are negative, unlike Tank classes like Warrior. Bard's song has a strong taunt ability and is easy to attract enemies, so naturally it is easy to get attacked, and it is often the case that you will be hit before you know it. And it is thought that it is to endure until the party members realize that, or until they are free to deal with them.
　Bards are not good for tanks. However, if there is no Tank type class, you may have to play the role of Tank. At that time, make sure you have a healer, clear it with a rush, or think about your enemy's choice. Even if he wasn't playing Tank, death would be close to Bard..

2. Bard as Sub Tank
　Bard wrote that he could not serve as a Tank. What about SubTank? The Sub Tank here is more of an Assiter and an Attacker, and it is a place to peel off small fish that have moved to a caster etc. (There are various definitions of Tank, Sub Tank, etc. Sub Tank = Attacker, should be a SubTank, and the Tank is the role of taunting and taking damage, or the Attacker and the Tunt role are the same as the Tank... well, that's the definition here).
　As a Sub-Tank, Bard would be useful to some extent. If you have Dual Whield and equip a weapon, you have a decent amount of offensive power. And you can also tear off enemies that have moved to the caster, if you use a song with a bard, for example, the level 24 Snare Song has a strong taunt, and after a few shots it will turn to you, and the level 27 Charm Song You can also turn enemies into pets to buy you some time—easily possible. As a sub-tank, it may be best for a bird to act while watching the battle situation. But of course, don't forget your vulnerability. In any case, it would be meaningless to take damage from the scraped small fish and trouble the healer's hands...


https://web.archive.org/web/20010413020915/http://www.mwc.ne.jp:80/kettya/eq/brd/song2.htm

02:09:15 Apr 13, 2001

Part 3 About Taunt performance

Songs that affect enemies have a particularly strong Taunt ability.
Sleep, Charm, Lv20 speeddown, Lv23 Snare, etc. These outperform the Tank's Taunt.
The taunt performance of songs that affect allies is moderate.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010821112706/http://www.mwc.ne.jp/kettya/eq/brd/intro.htm#2

c. Comparison with Tank
Because Plate can be worn and the song has a strong taunt effect, it tends to be thought that it is close to Tank.
However, in fact, it has less HP and only defense skill Dodge, and it
is quite easy to die compared to Tank because it is targeted by all surrounding enemies.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010713135140/http://www.mwc.ne.jp/kettya/eq/brd/song.htm

Lv15 Sleep song

...

・Punch an enemy while using SubTank's Sleep. It can surpass warrior's Taunt etc. If MainTank's HP is low, Bard can tank as a sub, which will increase the endurance of the entire party.
When there are few enemies, this is better than focusing on Sleep.

Lv23 Snare song
It is often referred to as the Root song, but it actually has the same effect as Snare, which can be used by DRU, and is a song that slows down the enemy's attack speed and movement speed.
Attack speed reduction is almost the same as Lv20, and seems to stack with Lv20.
Movement speed is reduced to the point where fleeing enemies are about to die and move a little faster than they started walking slowly. When the enemy's physical strength is about 1/4, the foot will stop completely.
The difference with Root is that if you sing to an enemy who has run away, he will not fight back after stopping.
The same thing is that it has a terrific taunt effect (lol), easily surpassing War's taunt.
The advantage is that you can hit inexhaustibly and you can use it while chasing the fleeing enemy, but the effect time is about 15 seconds.

As of September 1999, all movement-type magic is Pacth, and the specs have changed over and over, so compatibility with each magic is a little confusing. The enemy's bogus Indoor Sow cannot be erased, but Root seems to be able to negate it... no good? (Even if Root disappears, if you're 15 seconds too slow, you can't escape).

Lv27 Charm song

...

The Taunt of Taunt Charm is intense, and the enemy once angered by Chram will not peel off easily. Conversely, you can also use this as a Taunt. It is also possible to taunt multiple enemies using the method described above. …Why did Bard memorize this, me (sweat.

　It is linked with the Taunt effect of Range Songs such as Substitute Sleep and Support Songs. I personally prefer to use it. After putting multiple enemies to sleep, Bard itself becomes a target from multiple enemies, and charms one to retreat before the enemy wakes up. Then "Pet Guard me".


https://web.archive.org/web/20010821114237/http://www.mwc.ne.jp/kettya/eq/brd/tactics2.htm

　When I went to the back of the building, it seemed that most of the cleaning had already been completed. When you get a friend to join you and go inside, the enemy Spwan is out of alignment. If you are fighting while thinking that this is easy, the only tank in the party will "sleep".

I said, ``Is that the role of Tank?''
Everyone said, ``Yes.''

Guuu, the enemy's Spwan is out of place for now, so I'll manage somehow. Although the enemy is strong, most of them are undead that are easy to kill instantly. However, it is not as hard as Tank, so it will be a guarantee of your life if you use a powerful Taunt and make sure that the cast of the rear guard is never interrupted. Then the song is Charm . A weapon in both hands is better for Taunt than a shield in the left hand.

Will Tomahork's short-term invincibility special effect make up for the lack of defense ? Once you reach Lv25, the enemies you fight in parties are often blue, so it's been activated quite often, and recently I've been using Tomahork again.

However, when it comes to attacking after Charming, in order to ensure Chram, I want to equip an instrument first. It takes some time before you can expect the taunt effect, including punching, so it's not good for the back guard to suddenly hit attack magic. There is also the possibility that the song will be resisted. If the enemy POPs, I'll charm it anyway, so even if I cast magic, I'll ask my friends to use stun magic (if possible, I'd like to tell them to wait until Charm, but I can't say that to HAG).

In the meantime, for some reason, CLR, who was on the 3rd floor as reinforcements (even if the floor is different, you can heal and attack from the bottom, so there is no problem) brings 3 enemies . Ugh, my HP is pretty low. Charm while punching enemies. The first one was torn off.
Press the NearNPC key to hit the second one. Damn, punching and a little taunt effect song (note: probably stronger than War's) won't come off. It can't be helped, so Charm (Area Sleep seems to provoke underground enemies in this place, so it's forbidden). It also peeled off. In the meantime, CLR Heal seems to be done to some extent.

The impression that I tried is "Heal taunts are more likely to occur than holding down enemies with range Sleep, but if there are a certain number of enemies, it's easier to leave the tank to fight".

Recently, I've heard from some HiLvBards that "range sleep is dangerous in advanced dungeons", and when the number of enemies is usually within the expected range, use Buff songs, Let's practice how to fight with Lv28 stun (sleep) and Charm to support Taunt Work.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000510180950/http://www.everlore.com/boards/EL/Forum7/HTML/000541.html

Marziale
Member
Posts: 31
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-05-2000 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marziale Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Aye, tis a hard choice....Marziale is a lvl 20 Bardiebabe and Vonda is of the 11th lvl mage.
I LOVE Marz, but mostly because I have friends to group her with. Many of the bard songs tend to agro creatures because you are casting on the whole group, so a good group is essential especially if you opt to put down your weapon and play an instrument during battle!!!


https://web.archive.org/web/20040124024122/http://forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?p=474896&amp

View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
<Ninina>
Guest


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2001 1:20 pm Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
I think that bards need to get a song or ability such as evade to lower their aggro on mobs. When don't have the hit points to take a beating and rogues AND enchanters get a spell/ability to acomplish this, and are we not a cross between them? It seems clear to me that we need this added to our abilities to balance us out, as atleast 5 other classes can do it I think it falls under a jack of all trades skill
Back to top

Carlota
Toddler
Toddler

Joined: 26 Mar 2001
Posts: 79
Location: Orleans, Ontario
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2001 7:40 pm Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
Actually there are exellent weapons which procs a spell which lowers MoB agro.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email

<Garathe>
Guest

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:28 am Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
There also is a song that lowers agro. It is just at a high level

song of the dawn lever 53 song is the one

Garath Willowreed
The Bard of K'ardi Drasad


https://web.archive.org/web/20010727093909/http://www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?&song=40

27 Solon's Song of the Sirens Charms the target and turns it into your pet for up to 15 seconds. Highly dependent on your charisma. Will not work on 37+ mobs, but there is a charm upgrade by then. High aggro effect, but you can turn that into your advantage when the mob is aggroing on a caster. Useful when your party pulls more than 1 mob, put one on your side!


https://web.archive.org/web/20010204193800/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/053745.html

NadiraAndante
Station Member posted 01-31-2001 04:09 PM
Alright Absor...

...

This is why we need better defensive skills. Even though verant over time did tune down our hate from songs a little (6way constant helping spells really really used to piss off monsters worse than now, and even now it's pretty horrifying) I will bet you that anytime there's a train in a plane the bards will go down first. The only exception would be someone doing big AEs, but since I play on PvP you don't really do that in raids lest you kill your own raid team.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010222185916/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000665-3.html

Mulamasi_TZ
Station Member posted 02-18-2001 04:56 PM
Lullaby (15) - Keep it AE, remove the secondary resist and make insturment use help alot. Risk vs Reward here, the bard is racking up alot of hate on all the mobs at once with this and a few resists could mean their death.


SIRANUI-ToD
Station Member posted 02-19-2001 02:11 AM

I'm sorry, Absor; I do not find this a very good list for the following reasons. Are these the only issues to be addressed? What I'd like to see is a few comments about where you (VI) see the bard in your game and what you see as reasonable and not; a background for the bard class if you will. This will help steer us - at the moment we are a jack-of-all trades class and in many ways don't know what to comment on, except for existing bugs. Can we please have feedback on status items NOT on your list, and reasons for non-implimentation; that would make me a lot happier.
Predominatly, you're dealing with existing bugs, rather than sailing 'fresh' waters. Yes, we all would love bug fixes, but we'd also like enhances in line with other classes and the use of a little imagination on the development team's behalf, rather than just fixing existing code. You seem to be taking the path of least resistance. Fixing what was broken is not balancing.

Again, a few points that spring to mind:

1) Give us an icon for mana song. This will save us getting told 'play mana' at least once an hour and would be an across-the-board benifit.

2) Increase in defense cap makes no sense and seems to be a simple 'keep-em-happy' enhancement route to take. post 50 (when extra defence raises kick in), we do not have the need for it (we are non-taunters and do not tend to get hit much unless we're on CC). From a RP point of view, why should an entertainer have the same defense as a knight or highly trained warrior? Jumping back to thread 5, yes defence is hard to raise, but it does happen eventually, as higher XP demands give greater oppertunity at increase per level. Aggro list manipulation is a good way to get increases. Ask for mobs to be rooted - then either manipulate aggro to get hit heck, I can taunt off a 59th ranger in this situation, much to his chargrin), or simply ask tanks to not taunt. I would rather be enhanced in another direction that makes sense.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010222183404/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000665-5.html

Starling_Bane
Station Member posted 02-22-2001 06:45 AM
Ignore the trolling. Any bards who are as disgusted as I am with the bard issues (or lack of) addressed by the latest patch, please post your discontent. Reasoned arguement is obviously ignored, all we have left is complaint. Better still, vote with your feet & quit!
*Maybe* some of the bard problems raised will be addressed in a future patch, but, once again, the bards are left to last (probably to be overlooked yet again).

1) Increased defense cap.
Great for the lower level bards who have such a high aggro. Congratulations on this benefit, I don't begrudge you. From the point of view of a level 55 bard though, it's useless. I find it impossible to even generate any aggro at this level - I wish I could.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010215014449/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/055105.html

kfsone
Station Member posted 02-05-2001 01:55 PM
With regards to the new changes from Test.

...

Instead of seriously investigating this, you simply give us warrior like defense? The problem with this is that it is ill considered given the numerous defensive songs that a bard has available to them. Bards are soft and squishy and create lots of agro. This is the baseline challenge of the class. What justification is there for increasing our defensive capabilities?

MMMyra
Station Member posted 02-05-2001 02:53 PM
I wanted to throw my own two cents in on this, especially since most of the comments here seem to focus on the high end game and less on stuff below 40 to 45. My bard isn't 40 yet and issues for her are different, and fit into a few broad categories. I think one of the core balancing issues is how our songs seem to be valued for balancing.
First at all levels we seem to be evaluated as a partial tank, well depending on who you ask we are a pure caster after some level in the high 20s or 30s doing very little tanking because we have this massive aggro rate and pure caster level hp, and both weak combat defense and offense. At some point our songs must be powerful enough to compete with pure casters for effectiveness because we are effectively casters that stop tanking later than other casters, or we must have our combat skills increased in some way to make it realistic that we are a secondary tank.

...

The other part of the miscalculation is based on aggro. I am the queen of aggro. I have been in a number of parties with two characters with taunt and a rogue backtabbing, and I am the target for the mob or mobs. I understand that it used to be worse, it is still way ahead of any other class. I think this is partly true because it seems like a lot of our songs are evaluated for aggro based on their potential effect instead of actual. So for example our healing song seems to aggro as if I am healing every party member, even if only one of them is injured. For our buffs and debuffs we are hit a for aggro in a way that no other class is. Mobs don't get pissed at any other class for buffing party members because they buff in down time, and/or one party member at a time. We get hit with agro for buffing, and that haste component falling on the cleric sitting medding to heal counts. And unlike any other caster we need to be close in to the fight to have our buffs, and debuffs work, making it much easier for the mobs to hit us. We don't have significantly more HP than those casters who get to sit back further from the fight. They aren't immune to aggro, but tend to be in much better shape than us, by being further from the fight.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010303013859/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/055105-3.html

RomanyFox
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 07:10 AM

...

In addition, the dev team needs to realize that most bard songs DO have a mana cost. In the virtual mana you aren't returning to the casters/healers AND in blood. Bard mana is mostly paid in blood (aggro) - my hits are what race down as I play, the question isn't whether I'll be OOM but OOhitpoints and thus unable to contribute a spell. While I'm chain casting snare 12 times in order to keep it more or less on for 30 seconds i'm being beaten on - draining mana from the healers to keep me alive and running the risk of dying for what is essentially a no-cost spell for a ranger or other snare-enabled class.

So.... my suggestions:

1) lower restists on Snare, Lull, Lullabye, Mez, Charm lines to roughly half what they are now.

I know this seems insanely high but the gap here between use and non-use is HUGE. These things grow increasingly weak as we progress in levels and thus we become harder and harder to justify as doing anything other than mana song.

2) lower resists for other bard songs by a reasonable factor - perhaps 10% - to compensate for the aggro effects which are still extremely punishing.


Plundar
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 09:04 AM

...

5)Our TAUNT skill is pathetic when I need to taunt a MOB off another party member it is almost impossible. My only way to do this now is to charm the MOB. From levels 1 to 25 we can't keep the MOBs off us, after that I can't get there attention, even our mezs don't make the MOB forget about the other party member it was chasing. Perhaps we need the TAUNT skill or a song with an extremely high aggro value but without the charm.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010303101937/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/055105-5.html

Steevin
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 10:33 AM

...

Dalakar_Daystar: "Often, If my group is in trouble, I'll fire up one of my super aggro-AoE songs, or, these days, start charming and mezzing left and right, and tell everyone to get the hell out of there. Assuming they obey me, I'm left with a bunch of mobs ticked off at me, the HP of a pure caster/priest type, and probably not enough AC to offset that ... A Well-played Bard dies often, so that his group may live. And most of my regular grouping partners will back this up, The Bard dies first."

...

You, and people like you, die because of the way you play your character, not because you play a Bard. I could just as easily take an enchanter and say the same thing, or a cleric, or a warrior. I could taunt every single mob onto me and die for the group so they can get away. Doesn't make me a group god, just makes me dead.


Digory
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 08:27 AM

...

I think the idea of providing bards better defense skills is very good. A lot of the songs are defensive in nature already. If the bard is taking a ton of damage (often) while singing defense songs, he doesnt last long. These defense songs (for example rhythm line and psalm line) mostly stack with other lines. That differs from the buffing lines.

...

SO maybe the enhancements are
1) Reduce taunt on some defensive songs or reduce natural taunt. Except for damage songs and healing, the monster just doesn't recognize the effect because it's subtle?


https://web.archive.org/web/20010303013737/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/055105-2.html

Scythe
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 08:00 PM
A few ideas that would make the bard slightly more group friendly at higher levels:
1) Round out the chant series of songs with a disease and a poison debuff version. It will not strengthen the offense of a bard, since we already have 3 we can twist together, but it will let us reduce resists that most other classes can't touch. Since we have a psalm song for every resist, having an equivilent debuff isn't out of character.

2) A self-only evade song. Each pulse would move us down the targets hate list, so we can sacrifice 1 group buff/song cycle to attract less attention from the mobs. This post is full of complaints about the unwanted attention a bard in a full group gets, this would help without having to change the dynamics of the hate list system.

3) If hot keys had 2 more lines, a recycle command, and would stay depressed, macros like this could be build:

/pause 27, /cast 1
/pause 3, /cast 1
/pause 27, /cast 2
/pause 3, /cast 2
/pause 27, /cast 3
/pause 3, /cast 3
/repeat

Once you press the hotkey, it stays depressed, cycling through the songs. When you press it again, it breaks the cycle. This will mean a bard could build macros for occasions like downtime, so a bard isn't having to hit a key every 3 seconds to be their most efficient. This adds nothing to the game, and gets very annoying.


dyahannah
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 11:29 PM
scythe, we have an evade song, its called song of dawn and it works well enough

TundraYeti
Station Member posted 02-07-2001 01:11 AM

...

Double Attack will not help bards, we have enough problems with agro as it is. The defense upgrade will mean I live an extra second maybe if something decides that I should die now. More hps, well, that's not really what barding is about. We enhance the group, subtly, and that's what I'd like to be able to do.


spankytoes
Station Member posted 02-07-2001 09:28 AM

...

Defense- I think that it has been well pointed out that we are MOB magnets. Give us some HP and AC. While I agree that instruments are the best tactic of attack in most cases, bards will find the need to melee in some cases. The fact that casters have 100 or so less HP than me is utterly ridiculous. That is 2 hits from a MOB in the 30's. If we have caster HP, then we should have stronger songs. If it came to a choice between a bard and a cleric dying...who will see the Loading screen? (At ANY level)


https://web.archive.org/web/20010206224018/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/052807-2.html

Skalme
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:25 PM
Wow, some of these requests are a little overboard, but I kind of expected that.
My highest bard being level 41, I can't comment on the upper level stuff.

...

I can accept that I am lousy at melee, at my level I'm usually swinging a fist in between songs anyway. I expect this to continue. Is there a way to actually dual wield the fists with an instrument in your hand?

Aggro aggro aggro.. why is it that every monster in the universe hates bards more than any other class? I realize that song aggro has been dropped once already, but it's still quite high. (as an example) in CoM the other night, a SK was pulling things, when he got back to the group even if I wasn't singing it would fly past him and smack me until he taunted it off. This isn't all that uncommon, in other places any monsters beyond the first will charge past the tanks to the caster area where I am.

Those are all my comments/suggestions for the moment.

Jochomo
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:28 PM
*****
Absor,
*****
I doubt you'll read this far, but if so, I've tried to make your name more noticeable because I have several points to make:

1. "Bards are the most beat on of any class..." Aradune

2. "Bards are not really a hybrid class..." Abashi

What do these points have to do with anything?

Well, for the most part, if Bards are indeed the most beat on class (and at least up to and through the mid levels they appear to be) Bards are in SERIOUS need of a melee or defensive upgrade.

Consider this, I've played two bards, one up to 50 (BEFORE all the nerfs), and one up to 27 (AFTER all the nerfs), and I've also played warriors, druids, rogues, rangers, wizards, enchanters, etc. etc. etc.

I've yet to play ANY class that can agro mobs out of a train chasing someone else by doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, other than that of the bard.

Seriously! In Cazic, Unrest, or Mistmoore, some of your more train prevelant zones in the game I can have my bard, sitting, not singing, barely in agro range of a passing train, and at least ONE of the mobs if not more from that train will veer off and start attacking the mob. These mobs will PASS BY a meditating caster, ignore the taunting warrior or ranger, and STILL attack the bard.

It's laughable that it happens this way, but it does...

Please fix this agro issue.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010306111615/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/052807-6.html

Lord_Elwyn
Station Member posted 01-30-2001 07:23 AM
>From what I'm hearing, bards, paladins and shadow knights are all 'defensive' hybrids. I'll add a suggestion to increase the defense caps of all three to the lists.
This to me seems a little silly. I really have no need for higher defence. I very rarely get attacked, and my damage output is so pathetic compared to the real melee classes that I don't think I could draw aggro even if I wanted to.
If you want to make bards more useful in combat, give them a low-capping double attack. I'm not asking for a 255 cap so I'll do as much damage as a warrior or ranger, but maybe a lower cap of 75 or 100 that'll just add 20-30% to my damage output. This could be a skill gained in the mid-high 50's to balance the declining 50+ bard damage output in comparison to other melee classes.

...

Elwyn
60 Bard


https://web.archive.org/web/20010306100453/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/052807-4.html

Ionas
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 10:52 PM

Bards Lullaby song, it is pretty much useless to me. I do not use it anymore because it has such a high amount of taunt when it is resisted (which is often) I can be in the middle of a crowd of XXX mob and sing this song and 3 of the 4 creatures will get mezzed maybe if I am lucky, so I continue singing and it seems that the ones that are mezzed get another saving throw when I pulse the song again, so the first one is attacking me that did not get mezzed, and by the time I get them all mezzed I am almost dead.....then a few seconds later they break again. This song is resisted way too much since it seems to be a suicide song when it is played.

Our charm song: Works great for what I use it for...saving my warrior when he is getting trashed. I charm one mob and attack the other...(or to just charm it and give him a small break because when it breaks it will leave him alone for a while) gets one creature off of him and we have assistance in the fight, but when the charm breaks, even though he is about 6 levels above the creature with his taunt skill maxed, he cannot taunt the MOB off me for at least 3 tries usually. Please lower the taunt on this song....and maybe make it last longer in dungeon settings. Just a wish there, but it seems that this song will get me killed more than it will help me.

...

Bards in general have too high a Taunt effect on things. When in a group our attacks and singing often aggro things on us so much that I am told to stop singing or back off on my attacking because the warrior types are having a hard time keeping things from attacking me. I do not like sitting in a corner not doing what I can to pull my weight in a melee as best I can, but it is so bad I often need to use slower weapons and often stop singing just to stay alive. There is a rumor that bards are SuperConducting High Powered MOB Magnets...and I would have to say it is true.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010207001654/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/052807-3.html

salsaccia
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 06:52 PM

I don't particularly mind the obscenely high taunt that my bard seems to be. Actually, it's kind of useful to know that the mobs are coming straight for me...it adds some predictability to the fight. We can strategize based on it. So, in summary...

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20030128103628/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&mid=103831689214641

RE: Newbie Armour for a Vah Shir bard By: Slipskin, Scholar
632 posts
Posted @ Tue, Nov 26th 8:44 AM 2002 Score: Decent[3.44]
One thing you will discover about bards is that they generate a lot of aggro - even worse than clerics. Since most bard songs are AoE that means you can be generating a lot of aggro from a whole lot of mobs at one time. Monks and rogues often find this problem since they tend to dish out more damage over time than a main tank class. Clerics have this problem since heals generate aggro, too. AC does reduce the amount of damage taken but HP allows you to take more damage. So, you want both.

STA does not generate enough HP compared to a straight HP buff item and STA items are hard to find. Yes, you want STA at 100 or a little over so you don't fatigue in a fight. But after that you get better return from HP buff items. Breath duration on a bard is irrelevant at level 14. You get an enduring breath song. I rarely have ever had to use zing song. Even then I twisted it in once or twice during a fight and a couple more times during downtime. I almost never have it memmed.

AGI doesn't improve your AC or damage avoidance enough to warrant putting a lot of investment in it unless you're a monk. Most seasoned rogues will tell you go for STR, AC, and HP. AGI is nice for raising defensive skills quickly but once they are capped the AGI doesn't do much.

DEX has the same problem except that it allows offensive abilities to improve faster. However, with bards, DEX also reduces your chance for missed notes.

STR is important since bards are a plate wearing class and secondary tanking class. Plate armor is heavy. STR increases your ATK rating which means more hits in melee and more damage delt to the mob.

CHA has recently been explained by SonyEQ on how that factors in - if the mez/lull fails a check is made on your CHA to see if the mob chooses to aggro you or not. High CHA reduces the chance of that happening. Check out the discussion boards on EQDiva.com for more info.

A note on bard aggro - you already know that healing generates aggro. Well Hymn of Restoration is a group regen spell (11pts per tick for me at level 25 with a Combine Mandolin). Now, 11 pts per tick is not a lot for just me. But in a full group fighting mobs that becomes 66pts per tick (6 members at 11/tick each). THAT will generate mucho aggro. Never mind Selo's Consonant Chain (slow/snare) and a couple of AoE DOT songs on top of that. Unlike those bards you grouped with I typically twist 3 songs while meleeing (I have a 60 bard friend as a tutor). If the tanks I am with do not taunt properly I am a dead kitty. Mez song keeps me alive a little longer but its hard to twist mezz since it breaks so easily. Try grouping in High Keep or Blackburrow a few times and you will see what I mean.

I grouped with a necro last nite and bumped around some gnolls in SK. I ended up tanking more than the pet did. It had trouble holding aggro with my song twists - Selo's Consonant Chain, Jonathan's Whistling Warsong, and Hymn of Restoration (the pet does not benefit from bard songs so I ran as if I was solo tanking). I used melee weapons instead of an instrument twist. No AoE songs since I did not want to draw adds. Worked well. Got a full yellow of experience in an hour. No deaths. Not even close. Did single and double pulls of yellow and red cons. During down time I twisted Hymn and Clarity. It was a great team.

Slipskin Ashenheart, 47 Rogue
Mewse, 25 Bard
Arcturos Redmane, 28 Monk


P.S. I forgot to mention that AC does not help against spells - only melee. When you get caught by that DD or DOT spell, after MR fails, the extra HP is the only thing that will help you.

Edited, Tue Nov 26 08:51:02 2002


https://web.archive.org/web/20041107112828/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2639

Author Thread: Agro songs
Sinfonian is not online. Last active: 11/6/2004 1:10:25 AM Sinfonian
www.eqdiva.com
Forum Moderator
Joined: 06 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 1633

Agro songs
Posted: Dec 31 02 6:47 PM
I know I've read a post or two someplace on this or the old site about songs that increase agro, such as charm or mez, but are their other songs that increase agro. I am looking for something to pull off casters or simply avoid casters from being agro'd. I know the clerics of the world would LOVE if we of the many hps could take a few more hits than they of the few hps.

I know I should know the song list better but I am still working on it. Any help from you Maestros would be most appreciated.

Sinfonian

Maestro Sinfonian's gear... (inspect me)

Jarroll is not online. Last active: 11/5/2004 5:35:44 PM Jarroll
www.xegonybard.com
Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 220

Re: Agro songs
Posted: Dec 31 02 10:51 PM
Song of Shields (level 49) does a good job of getting agro. Its like casting a 40 point rune on every group-member every tick.

Jarroll, Bard of Xegony

Mystaviant is not online. Last active: 1/25/2004 3:29:59 PM Mystaviant
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 440

Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 1 03 12:29 AM
Beside charm and mezz, the only other insta-aggro song i can think of is Denon's Desperate Dirge and also Brusco's Bombastic Bellow. Both deal an awful amount instantly, but if I remember right, one requires 800 mana, and the other is usuable once every 5 minutes or something. Mezz is a better option, and if you dont have a pet already, charm, especially if its below level 51, cause its GUARENTEED to make the caster lose all aggro, and you to gain it all, if thats what you want. Repeatedly mezzing while purposely meleeing to break it also works well.

Mystaviant BattleBard

Virtuoso

paeros is not online. Last active: 10/14/2004 7:12:58 AM paeros
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 729

Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 1 03 11:12 AM
Shield of song... any upper level mana/hp song, lvl 51 slow
song does a bit. Best agro I've had so far was doing 1 regen
and a few Shield ticks. Got pretty good agro out of that not
to mention stopped lots of damage... heh

gileas is not online. Last active: 1/21/2003 11:14:57 PM gileas
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Total Posts: 34

Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 2 03 7:22 PM
Highsun does a pretty good job of getting it off the caster *ahem*

I actually hear all about the agro from SoS, was even warned by bard buddy when I got it but half the time I swap the lute of howler into slot one and click it, once its cast I pop weapon back and twist the other 2 or 3 when we fight. Esp if we got a druid with shammy backup as healers or something, and I rarely do get the famed and feared SoS agro.

But I do keep Song of Dawn loaded in case I do, its pretty handy being all not-resistable, and if you talk to your MT ahead of time and ask him to sit down if the mob goes for you when the little shield appears on his screen it works REALLY well to get agro RIGHT off of you and back to him.

Serious, this combo works great if you are weak in the healer dept.

Gileas, who sings SoS a lot.
Gileas Equipment

Anulien is not online. Last active: 11/6/2004 12:15:14 PM Anulien
www.hofguild.org
Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 163

Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 2 03 9:01 PM
I will agree, Song of Shield does an awesome job getting aggro when in a full group. If your trying to puill of a wizzie good luck to you though, some will nuke to soon and getting aggro from a 1k nuke can be somewhat troubling. My suggestion is to keep lvl 55 Bellow memmed if you think one of your casters is going to pull to much aggro. The 5 min recast isnt to nice and the high resists makes it a little iffy, but in that instant where they are getting the snot beat out of them it is worth a chance with an 8 second stun. As for reducing aggro for your group members, no luck there. Keep yourself hasted, keep low delay weapons if you are tanking and all should be well.

Lyeric is not online. Last active: 3/3/2003 12:39:31 AM Lyeric
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 5

Re: Agro songs
Posted: Jan 9 03 12:42 PM
Best way ive found to keep or get agro is to sing as many Dot/Debuff songs as you can.. if you pull its even better..

at 60 you can cast 30 slow.. 1 min dot.. than add 3 or 4 dots and twist those.. at 60 I could keep agro from a 60 warrior until he taunts or has his epic proc.. but you get agro back when you keep dotting.. But once that war epic procs again.. you think you might as well have been hasting the warrior.. ;)

At 62 you get 45 slow which is a lot better agro than the 30 slow dot.. but still taunt becoms harder the longer the combat lasts.

Saving casters from agro is best done with charm.. having a way to lose charm fast is nice too.. Mosquito boots or hide or invis up.


https://web.archive.org/web/20050126134813/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=7321

Author Thread: Generates Agro/Snares in 'Death Walk'
cujomatic is not online. Last active: 1/24/2005 9:54:31 AM cujomatic
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Total Posts: 581

Generates Agro/Snares in 'Death Walk'
Posted: May 14 03 7:33 PM
This song is great (like the 20 song) for grabbing aggro for the bard (ie if a caster is with the group and pulling from a distance, and you want to grab aggro incoming).

The song snares when the critter goes into its 'Death Walk' at around 20% health.

This song, unlike the 20 AE slow song, DOES bust mez.
Currently in EQII Krescendo, 29 Dirge...Faydark/ Bhandade, 29 Cleric...Faydark


https://web.archive.org/web/20050121063208/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=61054#61363

frymd is not online. Last active: 1/17/2005 12:36:30 PM frymd
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Total Posts: 51

Re: Aggro in Hard LDon-- First Loss
Posted: Sep 10 04 2:24 PM
Your songs create aggro right off the bat if your singing when a mob is pulled into camp. No matter whether they are buff, heal, slow or whatever songs. You mez song will have a high aggro effect on it too.

I suspect you may have been the lowest level of the group or close to it so I imagine that didn't help either. In addition, tanks at this level will have trouble keeping aggro as taunt hardly ever works.

When you got rezed, your low life will draw aggro as well.

Bottom line, until your groups get higher level you will draw aggro. You will at higher levels too, but it isn't as much of an issue. Just turn off attack and back out of the fray if you need to, the tank will regain aggro. And, your mez will give you lots of aggro. You don't get a memblurr component on it till later. If your mezzed mobs break mez they will beat on you. If you keep them all mezzed, make sure the tank does a sucessful taunt before breaking mez or you will be beaten on again.

Good luck though and keep up the grouping. It will make you a better bard.
Wizzy of the 65th Circle of Knowledge; Bard of the 60th Silly Song; Beasty of the 39th Soloing Level; Shadow Knight of the 28th Level of Evil; There is always one more imbecile than you figur


https://web.archive.org/web/20050408143057/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=71983


Eaeamien is not online. Last active: 2/17/2005 2:52:43 PM Eaeamien
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Total Posts: 2

Re: Agro for tanking purposes...
Posted: Jan 24 05 12:52 PM
Ok, so you really really want aggro, hunh? Well I found 2 ways to get it , that actually work !!!!! A

...

Method #2
Spam Shield of Songs
Lets say that you decide you want to be main tank for your group cause the MT has less HP/AC/Def AA's than you do. Well heres the fun part....Remember that old school song "Shield of Songs" ? Well this seems to be the only honest aggro song we have. Probably a bug/glitch but it works, so use it. You cant twist a bunch of crap and SoS and maintain aggro...You just SPAM sos, over & over & over. I thought someone was pulling my leg when they told me about this, but ive used it in MPG and PoP and it works surprisingly well.

Ok, good luck being a tank.....I just pray you have at least the PoP defensive AA's.

Mose is not online. Last active: 4/8/2005 10:02:58 AM Mose
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 480

Re: Agro for tanking purposes...
Posted: Jan 24 05 2:56 PM
Spam Shield of Songs agro doesn't work the way it used to...else i would be leading PoFire AE groups

however, the devs have looked at our chant agro bug and discovered its cause:

Bard Chant Aggo

♪ M o s e ♪
[Triton]
Povar


https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/eqbards/24205.json

When I'm explicitly TRYING to aggro a primary target (VS comes to mind), the songs I use are: This, 55 bellow and Charm. It works pretty well, even if none of them stick, since I believe MOBs get aggro from the potential effect, not the actual effect. I am usually the 2nd or 3rd to aggro VS, at which point I can slap on deftdance and keep him uselessly swinging at me while the tanks clobber him. My guild leaders don't know I do this, I have to sneak a rune onto me and do it behind their backs, since they are stuck in the "only riposte discipline people fight VS" mode, but we've never lost when I've done this, so I don't think I'm provably wrong. If someone has a BETTER 3-song aggro-the-primary-MOB songlist, I'd love to hear it.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20001209004100/http://www.din.or.jp/~cai/eq/tips/w_rep0001.html

2000/01/26 　In EQVault , there was news that Gordon said on the forum that he was going to make Bard's Taunt weaker. Since Bard Song is a Party Member Buff, it seems to change the behavior of moving to the top of the Hate-List by saying "Buffing"... Well, I don't understand English well. It might be good news.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010516194136/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic&f=74&t=000634&go=newer

Devamaru
Veteran Poster
Member # 5832
Rate Member

posted March 27, 2001 09:18 AM Profile for Devamaru Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Bards don't advance any faster or slower than anyone else. They ARE very group friendly, and that will certainly help you getting into groups, provided the group has an inkling of what bards can do. (Or hasn't grouped with a bad bard).
Once you get past 18, you can start to solo effectively as well using various techniques. (Instrument fighting at 18, fear-kiting at 26, charm-kiting at 27).

Managing aggro is one of the worries that bards must deal with. I want to make bumper stickers: Mobs hate bards! In truth, think of bard aggro as ranging from somewhere between cleric aggro (moderately bad) to enchanter aggro (awful).

As you make your choice, remember that bards are one of the most complicated classes to play in the game, much more complicated than the monks, warriors, or rogues you have also suggested. Bards are hard to play well, but for me, and most of us here, the difficulty is one of the enjoyable things. We like challenges. If you like challenges too, the challenge to be flexible and adaptable, to fill different roles and different times, to play support songs sometimes instead of meleeing, to melee sometimes instead of hanging back, then consider a bard.

--------------------

Devamaru Silverlight
Torvonnilous


<Dinias>
unregistered

posted March 28, 2001 09:12 AM Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Bards are 'melee' in a rater pitiful sense. After 40 against a 45+ monster you lose your awesome melee powers!Or, perhaps your 2 rounds(maybe 1) of attack.
Crystalline short sword and wurm tendon whip and you're still rather pathetic! Dealing with aggro can be a tricky one... The real bonuses a bard provides are regens, slows, hastes... And the latter 2 are singing only.

While you are a semi-melee class; you are an incompetent tank to the fullest. A monk is a melee class, as is a rogue. Bard tanking is put a few notches below rogue, then take away all of their defensive abilities.

Aggro. Control it. Most people think you're a tank up until level 35. It even pisses em off to see you selo away, half bubble of life with three red cons who can kill you in a half second chasing after you. Regen is a continual aggro. Anything else is fine. If you break and put back on a debuff, you will aggro even more!

Hastes/slows are really useful. You should be using them. Just never, ever tank without a cleric- a good cleric. I wouldn't rely on a druid or shaman as they typically are whiny healers. And don't forget- your tanks should be meleeing. You're more of a boombox with weapons.

Dilbis
Veteran Poster
Member # 8052
Rate Member

posted March 28, 2001 10:44 AM Profile for Dilbis Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
What Carlota said about bards being good pullers is very true, especially in outdoor zones. I always get weird responses to the first time someone is grouped with me and I say, "bad pull, splitting". At 23rd level, a bard gets Selo's Consonant Chain, and this song was build for splitting.
While moving away from the pull, chain the mobs that you do NOT want. The only ones that will be able to keep up are the ones that you do want (well, not keep up, but you can tease them into chasing you). The ones you do not want will just fall out of the aggro radius. Track back to your group on a circular route, leaving the unwanted mobs standing in the middle of no where.

Dinias also mentioned controlling aggro. Outdoors, I say go over to the dark side. Use no self control at all, generate maximum aggro and kite with a melee partner(s). A monk that is my level can not generate enough aggro to turn a mob that I am kiting with chains (slows both movement and attack, tremendous taunt factor), Tuyen's Chant of Flames (fire based damage over time, fire resist debuff, huge taunt), and Tuyen's Chant of Frost (cold based dot, cold resist debuff, huge taunt). Fufil's Curtailing Chant can be subtituted at lower levels for one of the chants, or if the mob is highly resistant to fire or cold.

As to Antok's original question, are bards over powered, my answer is well...it depends...

Soloing for bards at high levels is pretty much restricted to outdoor zones. Without root or the melee skills to go toe to toe, kiting becomes essential. There are many different ways of solo kiting, some bards charm kite like mad men and some fear kite. I, however, am a firm believer in a good drum.

One thing about soloing is that bards are not quick kill artists. We grind them down slowly and wear the mobs out. The good thing about this is not the killing time, it is the down time. There is NO down time on a well kited mob. The kill rate is comparable or maybe slightly better than a druid from kill to kill counting their med time.

As a bard, I can also solo high blues that just have too many hit points for a solo caster to tackle (and a solo melee would not even think about). Last night in Burning Woods, I killed Gylton and Az (named wurms that drop wurmslayer quest scales) almost back to back.

Indoors, things change. Conventional fighting styles take over, groups are needed. Bards have several songs which make them highly desired in groups. Examples include all of the haste lines, all of the slow mob attack rate lines, damage control such as March of the Wee or Shield of Song, downtime reduction songs such as health/mana regen songs, and the Jig of Vigor is still nice in a fast pulling group, no need to have a caster wasting mana on that.

If the group needs crowd control, do not be afraid to use Crission's Pixie Strike or charm to control the mobs. Many bards whine about the high resists of the songs, but check this out. Even as a bard, I can tank a mob when it is only hitting me one out of four ticks. Playing Hymn and Shield of song in the non-mezzing ticks mean that I can keep this mob out of the fight almost indefinitely, while REDUCING the damage that the tank takes.

Above all, be creative. Do not get hung up on how many flashing icons your group has. Some of the best twist combinations do not buff the party at all, and some only put up one buff. Please, experiment. Ask several (not just one, some are twinks set up for guild raids, power leveled the entire way) higher level bards for pointers. There are a few songs which are so pathetic that I would never mem them, but most have a purpose for groups, soloing, utility or travel.

Dilbis Xll <Balefire Clan>
53rd Human Bard
Tarew Marr

Tinolan
Veteran Poster
Member # 4615
Rate Member

posted March 29, 2001 08:38 AM Profile for Tinolan Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
That thinking is backwards. The better you do it, the more your enemy hates you. The more effective something is, especially things like healing, the more hate it causes. My hymn regens 20/tick with my lute (wish I had a better lute). If it's just me and one other person, that's 40/tick total, and doesn't cause much aggro. In a full group though, it's 120/tick and causesa LOT of aggro.
At lvl 43, I successfully kited those Kromrif Guardsmen outside Kael around. Obviously, they conned red to me. They also have some ridiculously high number of hit points. 15-20k or so. I can't imagine any other class doing that successfully.

--------------------

Tinolan
Minstrel of Epic Adventurers
Fennin Ro


https://web.archive.org/web/20050516162139/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&mid=99893365173944&num=1

Posted @ Tue, Aug 28th 11:55 AM2001 | IP: Logged | Reply... Reply to this
By: Mahatma
Scholar
*
57 posts
Score: Good [4.10]

Add to address book Add to address book

Ok, it depends on how you like to play, if you like to group and use weapons, go with AC and strength gear. If you like to group and use instruments, go with AC and Dex gear. Solo, probably just AC and str for now. In groups, you are going to be getting hit quite a bit while you are learning what songs aggro you the most, so it's a good idea to get your AC as high as you can reasonably afford (bronze or banded at L. 12) before worrying about your other stats.

...

Bards can be amazingly effective naked with only their instruments and weapons, in a group. However, for charming and mezzing purposes, it's best to go ahead and have the gear =)

Thunderous Silenc
40th Bard of the Innoruuk Server


https://web.archive.org/web/20040914074138/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=52199

Zelandakh is online. Last active: 9/14/2004 3:40:22 AM Zelandakh
Forum Moderator
Joined: 07 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 78

Re: confused...
Posted: Jul 20 04 7:30 PM
Many years ago when I was a lowbie bard I actually tanked rather alot. I was not twinked at all, I just concentrated almost exclusively on AC in my equipment. By level 45 (Kunark-era) I was one of the highest AC bards on my server, because most bards concentrated on cha and/or HP. The point was that I could quite happily hold aggro and taking the blows was easy with a good cleric behind me.

Now move on a little and our song aggro was drastically reduced. This was a good thing for bards, but it did change the class somewhat. Low level groups still expect the bard to tank (we wear plate after all) and do not understand the finer workings of song taunt. Aggro is a definite issue here.

Myself I am genuinely not fussed with taunt at the higher end of the game. We do have ways to hold aggro here if we really want to, from chain chanting to simply acquiring a +hate proccing weapon. I've tanked enough myself, and heard enough tales of bard's tanking raid bosses, to know this is a minor thing.

However, as you can tell from this post it is a long time since I was a low-level bard. Alot of my thoughts of this side of the game come from my partner who I persuaded to level up a bard recently. And yes she was asked to tank in several groups.

So I would like to ask Klappers at this point what he thinks are the big issues for low level bards right now. Not only has he seen this side of the game more recently than me, he also has contact with a large number of low level bards through Molto Expressivo. What sort of ideas would you like to see thrown out to replace jig as our level 3 song?

Smiley Zel Smiley
A song is worth a thousand pictures.

[Ennewi]

Indication that bard songs had their aggro reduced yet again, post-Velious, as an answer to complaints previously highlighted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050119063253/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=40355

Eladuel is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 1:51:19 PM Eladuel
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Total Posts: 8

Re: Keeping aggro...
Posted: May 18 04 1:36 AM
Bards have a wierd code where the things we do cause agro just at a reduced rate, I figure it was to fix the problems with bards dying to fast when twisting. The problem with this is it also affects our procs so weopons that proc stun and slow won't be nearly effective if another class were using. Other then using the generic chants, charms, and sitting which will create a bit of agro not sure if it will be enough to say keep a BoT giant on you when a healer is ch'ing the only other path I know of is to get a weopon that procs a set ammount of hate like enraging blow aka BoC... so start saving your pennies or find a guild who is still willing to do AoW for a bard LOL


Below, more comments to support that songs were known to cause significant aggro, some more than others such as shield of song.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010503113938/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=006656

Topic: What class dies the least/most?

Elasto
Veteran Poster
Member # 2947
Member Rated:


posted April 14, 2001 10:57 PM Profile for Elasto Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Enchanters and bards definitely top.
Monks usually at the bottom if solo, but if pulling can often sacrifice themselves trying to split and not letting anyone heal them.

Necros at the bottom solo, but in a group die as much as any caster.

Druids dont often die outside with snare and sow.

Shaman are very hardy, since they have good ac, a pet to share tanking and fight increasingly slowed mobs as they level.

Worth noting that although clerics come somewhere in the middle, once they hit 49 they never die without getting a res

--------------------

Elasto, 57 Cleric

Posts: 263 | IP: Logged

Never Wiser
Veteran Poster
Member # 5847
Rate Member

posted April 15, 2001 02:07 AM Profile for Never Wiser Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Hmm.. I'd have to agree with chanters, they get smoked fast. FD classes easily die the least too.
I have a 50 bard and to tell ya the truth, I find it hard to believe a bard dies easy. There's so many ways to get away, it's crazy.. Of course, I do die alot, but that's because I am always testing stuff, biting off more than I can chew, etc. hehehe

Posts: 112 | IP: Logged


https://web.archive.org/web/20001209030300/http://www.maximumeq.com/forum/UltraBoard.cgi?Action=ShowPost&Board=bards&Post=173&Idle=30&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=0&Session=

New Message RE:Why are Bards so cool? (modified 0 times) Irony
Profile | Email
Hehe, reading the thread I notice that there are way too many people who don't exactly know what they're talking about.
Let's face it, bards are masters at nothing except versatility. While we can't heal as good as clerics, we heal better than warriors. While we can't buff as good as shamans, we buff much better than wizards. While we can't melee as good as monks, we melee much better than magicians. While we can't mez as good as chanters, we mez much better than SKs, while others have to med, we can continue kiting/charming/mezzing/healing/buffing and such. If you have a bard in your group, there will hardly be any situation that you can't handle. Bards have quite a few skills that most other classes lack: Safe Fall (absolutely necessary to avoid being killed by falling at high speed), Instill doubt (kinda gimmick, not too helpful but looks nice), Pick Lock (yes, we can pick some locks). You're in a dungeon and need to evac but the mobs keep hitting the dr00id/wizzy? AE fear will buy them the time necessary to cast (keep that memorized all the time, it's a lifesaver). Group invis, group water breathing, group protection (all resists can be addressed), group healing, group travel speed, group haste (30% haste at lvl 50 which is 10% more than the FBSS) and all that at *NO* mana cost. Not to mention the always-welcome chorus of clarity (and the upgrade song). BTW, the clarity songs (version one and two) beat the enchanter spells by a point or two. Oh, very handy: Group divine aura at level 60 (or 59?).
Yes, we can wield 2 weapons but since we have considerably low hp and are relatively weak, our main weapons are our instruments (try twisting the 2 chant songs (fire and cold) and fufil's with a drum on a mob, I guarantee you can taunt it off 3 warriors. Oh yes, we can snare, we have group damage shields...
You get the point: While we're not best at anything, we can do everything a bit. I have a 48 necro and a 47 bard (and 6 other chars below lvl 30). And the most noticeable difference between them all is: No class is as much fun to play as the bard.
I just wished, people knew more about bards. When I get into a group and tell them how bards handle things, they are usually amazed ('I didn't know bards could do THAT' or 'Weee...nifty song, great idea to twist it with that other song').
Just my 2cp....
Irony Truenote
Bard of (still) 47 songs on Innoruuk

Aug 31, 2000 05:14:50 A.M.

New Message RE:Why are Bards so cool? (modified 0 times) Sanctumquestris
Profile
An evolution of Bard appreciation:
lvls 1-5: Thought they were strange looking Elvis-like people playing miniture guitars.

lvls 5-15: Disliked bards because they always got beat up, did little damage, and songs didnt do much for me.

lvls 15-25: hmm, cant remember seeing any bards...

lvls 25-30: high level bard helps me get deep inside a dungeon for a somewhat rare drop with an invis and levitate song, hmm well maybe bards arent so bad...

lvls 31-34: Noticed bards have a mana regen song... very nice, less of a need for the sought after ench as a group member. (XYZ says bard looking for group). you say to your group: "get the bard"

lvl 35: watched a bard not much higher than me solo hill giants in lake rath by some combination of kiting and charming. Wow, bards are cool !!!

lvl 36: made a bard

Nov 26, 2000 03:26:43 A.M.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010628015050/http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/item.html?item=5857&start=0

01:50:50 Jun 28, 2001

This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, May 11th 8:59 PM Score: Default[2.00]
I've been playing my lvl 54 bard for a long time and if you are playing your bard well, this weapon will most likely get you killed. The reason is I generate a metric f*ckload of hate as it is. When I'm playing 4 songs in a group, mobs are pissed off at me enough as it is, with this weapon it would take a VERY uber war to taunt it off of me be for I get creamed. This weapon is great for all the bards out there that don't know how to twist songs very well, but if you are one of those bards and you are going to any of the very dangerous parts of Norrath, I pity your group.

[Top]
RE: This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 29th 12:07 PM Score: Default[2.00]
I'm a level 55 bard, can do crowd control (to an extent of replacing an enchanter), can twist 4 songs at any given time, have my epic that procs often...and i DONT generate a lot of aggro. I think you need to learn a bit about aggro management...

[Top]
RE: This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Zelandakh,
9 posts
Posted @ Wed, May 16th 6:06 PM Score: Decent[3.00]
Any good bard should have experimented enough to know how to control their aggro expertly, especially by their 50s. If you were using this in conjunction with your epic and had aggro problems you'd have to consider your twist carefully, choosing lower aggro songs where appropriate and perhaps using song of dawn from time to time. Seriously though, if you are doing your job and the war is doing theirs you shouldn't have a real problem unless there's something distinctly wrong.

(-: Zel :-)

RE: This Weapon isn't as good as it seems By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, May 14th 8:52 PM Score: Default[2.00]
What are you singing, shield of song? only way I can draw mobs off the tanks is with that or DoTs... our regens and buffs increase in power linearly vs. melee damage which increases quadratically (which means we taunt lots with them at low levels but tanks outtaunt them with damage alone at high levels). With this weapon I could finally do more melee damage than a shammy with an epic!


https://web.archive.org/web/20031205141524/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4896

explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Tue, Jul 24th 9:54 AM 2001
By: Kollins
Sage
198 posts
Score: Good [3.77]
-you give up two weapons to equip an instrument, those two weapons may have + stats like AC or dex or agi or something.
-store bought lute weighs either 1.0 or 0.1, store bought mandolin weighs 0.0, THIS weighs 5.0 making it one of the heaviest string instruments in the game.
-most string based songs worth memorizing have a high taunt value, niv's and hymm alone do over 60hp/tick of regen, that nets a combined taunt of 360hp every 6 seconds if you are in a full group not to mention the nuke absorption or str buff of niv's adds more taunt.
-one of the coolest bard songs I've used is string based and has an INSANE taunt factor (I'm not telling, find a 50+ bard worth their salt and ask them; besides wo be me for inciting a nerf) and if you find a reason to use it you need ALL the AC you can get considering I was out taunting a wizard chain casting AEs with C2 up, an enchanter chain casting grav flux and the cleric keeping me alive through the ordeal.

So I'd gladly take the AC and the HP and although I may complain about lugging a 5.0 stone instrument around I could definitly live with it.


1 Replies
RE: explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Wed, Mar 27th 2:33 AM 2002
By: StefenWavedreamer
3 posts
Score: Default [1.55]
A bard would want to taunt why? LOL, ask a level 50+ bard why they would want to take the punches instead of a warrior. We may be melee, but we aren't tanks.

StefenWavedreamer
Minstrel of RodcetNife

1 Replies
RE: explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Thu, Jul 18th 8:22 AM 2002
By: ModarakModersack
Scholar
78 posts
Score: Good [3.50]
Actually, he did not say anywhere that bards *want* to outtaunt a warrior. He merely states that the string based songs worth playing (Nivs, SoS, Cantata ..) have huge taunt potential, especially with a good instrument.
You may not want to get agro off a tank (if you have any), but how about taking mobs off your chanter/cleric/wizard?

Please don't assume what a 50+ bard might want and cease LOLing at people giving good input.


Edited, Thu Jul 18 08:36:53 2002


[55 Ministrel] Modarak Modersack (Wood Elf)
[65 Arch Lich] Knochi Blutwurst (Iksar)
Kael Drakkal

1 Replies
RE: explaination for the non bards Reply...
Posted @ Sun, Feb 2nd 9:54 AM 2003
By: Recursion
35 posts
Score: Decent [2.91]
He's talking about shield of songs. Its a group rune spell. If you chain cast it as fast as possible, its high aggro and while it won't turn you into a true tank, will make you much better at taking damage.

I guess if your tank went down and you were the only melee type left, this strategy could work, though normally I would just mezz and heal.

0 Replies
AC for Lute is important for SoS Reply...
Posted @ Sat, May 5th 4:28 AM 2001
By: Anonymous
Score: Default [2.00]
I have found that when chain playing sheild of song for whatever reason.. this is a huge taunt.. and since SoS is based of the lute this helps alot if ur trying to protect your group this way

RE: Lvl 50?!? Reply...
Posted @ Wed, Mar 21st 10:29 AM 2001
By: Palarran
Guru
118 posts
Score: Decent [3.30]
Many bard songs seem to have a high taunt, especially ones related to crowd control.
You'd better be able to take a beating until things can be taunted off you, even if you don't have to absorb hits continuously like a tank would...

[Kirdan]

Not disagreeing with your findings, but the fact that runes aren't producing a lot of agro is simply a choice that devs here made in order to nerf Bladestopper-type items. I wholeheartedly agree that rune agro needs to be reverted though. It's silly that they put in an unclassic nerf aimed at a line of clicky items and ended up buffing enchanters as a result.

[Ennewi]

Not disagreeing with your findings, but the fact that runes aren't producing a lot of agro is simply a choice that devs here made in order to nerf Bladestopper-type items. I wholeheartedly agree that rune agro needs to be reverted though. It's silly that they put in an unclassic nerf aimed at a line of clicky items and ended up buffing enchanters as a result.

Understood. SoS got lumped in with the rest mostly because the comments support the idea that aggro varied from song to song, at least until much later when bard aggro from songs/procs was reduced to the same low amount. Still looking for an exact date for when that happened, but it appears to be well beyond of the classic timeline.


https://web.archive.org/web/20030930230144/http://www.eqdiva.com/guides/hunting.asp?print=t&cboHuntingLevel=30

Kyepez (5/25/01) Infected Paw is a GREAT place for bards to level if you are working with a smart group. If you get a stupid group who don't understand the amount of sheer HATE that bards drum up, then Paw is bard deadly. The loot here is decent, although as always you can expect either ninja looters, or accountants. I have been here for about 8 levels off and on

Bards are VERY rare in this zone, as most bards are questing for lambent at this time. This can work to your advantage, and I have never had trouble getting into a group (what bard really does? . . . mana song plz. . . .. ) A of E songs are a no no here, and i would not suggest soloing.

The ONE place that is absolutely safe to solo and use A of E is the first room which spawns a leth vas and leth val. One of which will be blue to you , the other green. A of E twist will kill them quick and you get xp. Spawn of about 10 minutes, so not a great way for xp.

Primary role for the bard is crowd control ( when pulling multiple mobs which happens often) I use Solons, and Pixie. Lullaby is just a great way to die. Gnolls have a high resist on lullaby.

There are also caster gnolls who work in tandem with other gnolls. Tesch is a Warrior. Lleth is a Thief (backstab). Nisch is a Healer ( I hate npc clerics), Rosch is a caster. The Rosch is you MAIN enemy as a bard. You will be twisting songs and suddenly get hit for 200+damage as a result of the immediate hate build up. Keep Pixie memmed at all times.

Songs I keep memmed in gem order. jax, heal, anthem, Selo's chain, mana song :P, Solon siren, Pixie, Fufil's for twisting fun

Hope this helps enjoy!!!

Kyepez
32Bard of Morell Thule

Kyepez plays a little Manilow

Your mind clears
Your mind clears
your mind clears

Wayoff (7/10/01) I agree that charm kiting rocks here.
...few things i have found.

focus mainly on mobs other than tigers and rhinos..tigers and rhinos usually can outrun you without your drum..and more importantly..do not run away at low health.

as we all know charm is a huge taunt.
so formally charmed pet continue to chase us even if we have charmed another mob, and have that new pet smacking your former pet.

one way to avoid this here is to charm the sarnacks, cockatrice, and succulents. These mobs all run away at low health.

What these means to us is this..if your pet is losing the fight and gets really low on health, when charm breaks it will not run after you..but it will run away ... simply target your former pets target and send it after your fleeing old pet.


https://web.archive.org/web/20031020183525/http://eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=34

Excellent magic debuffer - 5/10/01 2:14:01 PM
~ Belark Songstrider
A good song when used in conjunction with other magic based spells and songs, especially at higher levels. The damage and magic resistance increase significantly with level.

At level 51, with a Nostrolo's Tambourine, this song reduces magic resistance by 30. (Without tambourine, it's 14.) This is even more effective than a spell like Malise at reducing magic resistance, and can really help you stick other songs. It can also really help other classes stick their debuffs, such as the Shaman's Drowsy line.

For a pure damage twist, I use my drum and lead with this song until it sticks. Next, switch to lute and sing (48) Selo's Chords of Cessation. If it doesn't stick, don't worry just continue on. Finish up with your horn and (18) Denon's Disruptive Discord. Then get out the drum again and get (30) Fufil's Curtailing Chant back on the target before it wears off again. (Using Fufil's is the real key here as the magic debuff almost guarantees that the other two songs will stick.)

This twist does about 1400 damage per minute to a single target, and about 1000 per minute to any others in the area. This is even more damage than a warrior or monk of the same level. Unfortunately it's also a LOT more taunt, meaning you get beat up on and have your songs interrupted, thus reducing this number. But even so, if you are only concerned with damage per second, this is a good way to go.

The other oft-touted use of this song is when kiting, but that's best left for emergencies. :)

-Belark Songstrider, 51st Minstrel of Drinal


https://web.archive.org/web/20010414213752/http://www.eqdiva.com/guides/guide1.asp

Saturday, April 14, 2001 2 bards drumming in a duet online
Home > Guides > Sensi's Guide to Songweaving

Sensi Jadeleaf's Guide to Songweaving
(reprinted with permission)
- Sensi Jadeleaf, the bardic legend now retired

Conclusion
So what do bards do with this broad range of skills? Anything that is needed. If your group is short on tanks, wade in there with the weapons and the heavy taunt songs like Chain. No enchanter? Make crowd control your duty. Snare if you donÂ’t have a druid or ranger around, and do some DoT if youÂ’re caster light. Lots of tanks in the party, make sure you keep those attack speed, strength and stamina songs in there. Change your songs as the combat changes, donÂ’t just stick with the same 3 songs you started with. While your party might not be aware of what youÂ’re doing when youÂ’re there, theyÂ’ll sure be aware of you when youÂ’re gone. I try to play the jack of all trades thing up as much as I can, as itÂ’s our strength, both in combat and role-play. I learn as many languages as I can, I try to use blunt, piercing and slashing weapons.

Being a bard is more fun than I ever thought it could be, but itÂ’s not a class for everyone. I stress all those who want to play them, stick with it for awhile and begin to get a taste of the different things we can do. At very least, it will give you an appreciation for what that bard in the corner of the room is doing.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010414213103/http://www.eqdiva.com/guides/charm.asp

Saturday, April 14, 2001 4 bards singing in a quartet online
Home > Guides > The Charming Bard

The Charming Bard

Charming a mob
If you have been an enchanter or druid in a previous life, our charm songs are similar to their Charm spells, where you "recruit" the help of a nearby mob. The sole difference is that our charm song only lasts less than 15 seconds (typically 12 seconds), rather than 8 minutes. During this time, you can turn a mob into your pet who is at your beck and call. Sic him onto his friends and watch the fun. When the charm breaks, the pet will be very aggro on you, so be sure to be prepared on what to do next. After reading this charm guide, you will have a pretty good idea what you should do next.

...

Lastly, if you're in a group and a group member is getting aggroed on, charm the mob, its a very powerful way to taunt the mob off when all else fails. It has saved the life of many of my past group members. For this reason, I often have charmed mem even with a chanter in the party... Its that powerful. Thus, charm is one of the best songs a bard can have. So read on, and turn yourself into a Charming Bard...


https://web.archive.org/web/20020102123546/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=46 .topic

Spiritous
Musician
Posts: 3
(4/10/01 8:43:05 am)
Reply thanks
My bard just got lv23 yesterday so I had a couple hours to try it out. I'm actually glad I was wrong about it being AE, those yellow/red adds really hurt when they aggro and slow taunts them every time.

I tried stacking Largo and Chain with Attacker's Misses on in chat window. There was no noticable difference between the two or when both were stacked on the opponent. Also, I'm used to my lv53 shaman slows so even normal Chain/Largo Attack Speed Debuff seems relatively insignificant. But the AC debuff on Largo does noticably help me hit.

Question now is, since songs are already fighting for the 8 spaces on line-up, which one to keep mem'd.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010718005632/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=38 .topic

Hoegaarden
Musician
Posts: 10
(3/27/01 11:25:59 am)
Reply
Re: Kelin's Lament (8) vs. Kellin's Lullaby (15)
If you'd have to pull, I'd go for Lambent first. You can lull those dervs, so they wont come after you when you pull. Lull as many as possible and pull one with bellows, not direct contact. Lull decreases the aggro range, so it's best to keep as far away from the mobs as possible.

When you have pulled, check how many have followed you. There will be probably more than one :(

Now is the time to go over to Lullaby and mez them. Make sure to tell your group to use assist, some people can really mess up.

Another important is that you do not sing the songs, always use your lute. They will already be resisted like hell and your lute could come in handy there.

Now for your questions:
- If Lambent breaks, mobs wont come after you. They will aggro you if they manage to resist it. (ouch)

-If Lullaby breaks mobs will very often aggro you. Tell the healer to keep a special eye on you and hope you can get their heads nodding again.

-The pull method is bellows, like I described above

Hoegaarden White Ale
Half Elven Bard of the 23rd song
Proud member of Caer Cadarn
Vazaelle server


"How can I be so thirsty when I drank so much last night?"


https://web.archive.org/web/20020102154016/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm53.showMessage?topicID=4 .topic

Evaengelic
Strolling Minstrel
Posts: 2
(8/17/01 7:11:58 pm)
Reply Re: What type of Bard are you?
Well considering that my Music outdamages my Best weapons (ok so Im not uber twinked with a Partisan & stuff) by like 3 : 1, I only use Weapons if there is absolutely NO Tank.

I prefer using Instruments even though I can easily out-Aggro a SK or Paladin, but with at least ONE warrior I'm ok. Heck As Ive hit level 48+ Ive had groups with no cleric and im doing enough regen with my LUTE (Cantata & NIvs twist) we didnt NEED a cleric.

So absolutely I consider myself a Instrument bard (but I can melee if I must, but just not very well)

Hugs & Kisses,

Eva


https://web.archive.org/web/20020105192402/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm7.showMessage?topicID=2. topic

eqdiva
Diva
Posts: 118
(2/27/01 12:22:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Stop Telling Me What To Play!!!
Yeah, I wish sometimes I could tell the cleric to heal me, or the enchanter to do their job... Like the time I was grouped with a cleric in The Overthere who at the same time was fighting in Lower Guk with another character! After he let someone die, I think our group disbanded and called it a night.

I haven't been in a group for a long time where someone ordered me what to play. I think they're content with me tanking and buffing/debuffing during battle, and then playing mana song between pulls if I'm not the puller. I'm an active bard, they can see me tanking, doing crowd control, pulling, snaring, etc...

But if someone in the group seems to tell me to play this or that, and I already feel I am doing my best job, I tell them that I feel I am playing the right songs at the right time. If they still don't get it, I go and find a new group. Usually the rest of the group tries to follow me into my new group... hehe...

I think you are with people who only know your current 32 song, but soon, you'll be with more educated people (hopefully). Right now I am hearing more and more shouts for "Looking for bard for our group!" mixed in with the "looking for healer or enchanter!" And everytime I join a new group, everyone says "I love bards."

You are just starting to reach the point where people will start respecting you. So hang in there, and it will get easier...

CalderTalespinner
Strolling Minstrel
Posts: 2
(3/14/01 10:56:41 am)
Reply Re: Stop Telling Me What To Play!!!
I generally agree with what has been said here. I also don't terribly enjoy people telling me what to play...I tend to see how the group works together then tailor what I twist to cater to the groups needs. I'm also usually the one who jumps in in an attempt to taunt a mob off the caster that just nuked the crap out of it. I generally ignore the requests for one song and one song only. It's insulting (at least to me) that someone else feels that I should be their personal mana battery or regenerator.

I do pride myself on my support role, knowing full well that my presence in a group can be the difference between that group's survival or demise.

One thing I'm not shy to ask for is a heal when I see that little red bar getting smaller and smaller.

Calder Talespinner
Bard of the 26th Psalm
Defenders of Valour
Ayonae Ro
The artist is nothing without the gift, but the gift is nothing without work." - Emile Zola

elandakh
Performer
Posts: 16
(4/5/01 6:29:26 pm)
Reply Re: Stop Telling Me What (Not) To Play!!!
Hmmmm, I guess I'm somewhat different to most of you. When I play an alt & a bard joins the grp the 1st thing I do is turn songs on and work out the twist(s) they're using. If they're not twisting even after a reasonable time to setup I say 'wot RU twisting?' & proceed from there.
If they're using a completely useless song (say elemental rhythms at aviak kfc) I'll make some comment - chances are they setup incorrectly.
If they're using an ae twist while I'm on my enc I'll issue a warning to never use ae dmg songs with a chanter in grp without giving warning & discuss how we're going to do crowd control (bard ae tanking often works better than mez/charm).
Finally, gain on my chanter if I'm hunting giant-class mobs I'll usually ask the bard if they want to charm the 1st add; in low-mid levels bard charm works more effectively than enchanters in most instances.
IMHO any bard should be looking to learn from others...there's so many options & so many ways of playing that I'll never feel satisfied that I have every situation worked out 100%.

(-: Zel :-)


https://web.archive.org/web/20010617022401/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=73 .topic

Tenille
One Hit Wonder
Posts: 1
(5/10/01 9:42:52 am)
Reply My song lineup...
Here's the song lineup I use at lvl 57 (if you care)... don't know if this might help you or not - maybe someone has ideas for me =)

Hotkeys:
--------
1.) Verses of Victory
2.) Selo's Consonant Chain
3.) Cantana of Replenishment
4.) Song of Twilight
5.) Niv's Melody of Preservation
6.) Brusco's Bombastic Bellow
7.) Kelin's Lugubrious Lament
8.) Solon's Bewitching Bravura

...

2.) Snare is a great thing to have, even with a snarer in the group. Occasionally I will swap this for Largo's Melodic Binding when there is a reliable snarer in the group due to it's great AC reduction and ability to keep things off the chanter =) Sometimes when fighting lower level stuff I will use lvl 51 Largo's Absonant Binding - which has better effects than Consonant Chain, but seems to have a higher resist rate as well. I think that Consonant Chain is the most reliable snare song, and in a situation where stuff must be snared - I always have this memorized.

Tenille
Strolling Minstrel
Posts: 2
(5/10/01 3:23:31 pm)
Reply Re: My song lineup...
Selo's Assonant Strane - I have experimented with this song - and while it works better for keeping mobs off the enchanter (higher taunt than Melodic Binding it seems) - it's not very useful for snaring because the range is so short. If you miss a tick with it, or it is resisted at the wrong time and the mob has SoW on - you are gonna have a runner.

In situations where I need a snare I use either of the single target ones as opposed to the AE assonant strane.

In situations where I am the slower, I either go with lvl 20 Melodic Binding or lvl 51 Absonant Binding. Both have their benefits. 51 has better overall effects. If I'm having problems with a caster being hit a lot by mobs after mez breaks or whatnot - I will use the lvl 20 song. If I'm just looking to slow a mob (and the snare is nice as well), I will use the lvl 51 song. 51 does have a higher taunt, though, and if you have a tank who is lower lvl (or just can't taunt off you), I have much better luck with lvl 20 song.

Occlusion of Sound - I can't sing the praises of this song enough. It's amazing. The only drawback is the instrument requirement (but I will have my epic soon hopefully, so that won't be an issue). But the debuff is unresistable. Unfortunately, due to the instrument requirement, it usually rules out melee for me... Fortunately, I find that it's really only useful against large mobs which require a large number of people in the first place - so my melee wouldn't matter much one way or the other.

In a situation where I would use Occulsion, I will generally twist Occlusion, Replenishment and VoV (swapping instruments of course). Occlusion has a nice long range as well - so it lets me park next to my cleric and keep pumping mana at full strength while landing the debuff on the mob as well.

Usually in a fight where I'm using Occlusion, guildchat is full of "OMG I nuked for full DMG!" from druids and mages. Malo line seems to land very consistently on mobs previously untouchable by the lower lvl versions of this. Of course, there is stuff that you just can't debuff (except with this song, Tash line and Lvl 60 shaman/mage debuffs), but the results are *VERY* noticeable otherwise.

I guess you just have to weigh how much you are worth doing a certain thing in a certain situation. I like the fact that instead of doing my trivial melee damage in a huge fight against Treah Greenroot, I can hang next to my cleric singing mana and occlusion and VoV (which has a pretty decent range as well) and when the mob drops my cleric is FM.
Tenille Barakus
57 Troubador
Mith Marr


https://web.archive.org/web/20010617015128/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=65 .topic

Valmi
Musician
Posts: 3
(5/9/01 4:51:14 am)
Reply
Re: Full group.. Wich songs to play..?
29-32, 4 tanks, and a Druid? Presuming you have halfway decent charisma...
Have the druid focus on healing. Nothing else, unless needed in a tight spot. You Chain incoming mobs, twist Anthem and Chant o Battle using drum only. Cycle in Jig and Chains. That will add HUGE amounts of STR/DEX/STA + Haste, and leave the Druid's mana for healing. What you'll do for 4 tanks with that drum far outweighs what you can do tanking. On multiple pulls, you've got Charm and Pixie Strike (Mez). When doing crowd control, don't sweat your regular twists. If charming, I'll activate maybe one other song (haste usually); and keep recharming/mezzing. When mezzing 2-3 mobs, you won't have time for other twists. A crude stein (not expensive) would be easy to swap out with drum in those cases and it'd add +15 Charisma. Personally, I feel that the addition of a 20th level Breeze song makes playing Hymn worthless in downtime. I learned after 32 that full time manasong is stronger than a twisted manasong; give the real healers the mana to do their job. However, with 4 tanks, your case may be unique. Experiment with both, since it's a regular group, and see what works best. By that level, I'd pretty much ditched all my area stuff. Playing Chords or Denons at that level will get you swarmed, and eat up the Druid's mana trying to save your weenie bard butt. Don't even get me started on Largo's and Lullaby. Well used Pixie Strikes will be better anyway. Watch your aggro, and have the tanks cycle back if they get over aggroed. With 4, they should be taking turns getting pounded. The job of a Bard is to reduce the party's downtime. To do that you must spread out & conserve Damage and Mana. Reduce your own aggro: if you're getting jumped up front, try NOT singing when the mobs are pulled. Wait until the fight gets underway. Experiment, but focus on what reduces the group's downtime over what cool stuff you can do!
Valmi Silversong
48th Bard on Tunare


https://web.archive.org/web/20010617031446/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83 .topic

Kyllnarushi
Rockstar
Posts: 213
(5/16/01 10:53:04 am)
Reply Selos' Chords of Cessation
Anyone really use this song?

To me, it seems to be one of those songs that kinda just says....

Hey Cleric...Rezz me.

Flicx Stardrifter
Performer
Posts: 16
(5/17/01 4:49:24 am)
Reply
Community Supporter

Re: Selos' Chords of Cessation
It's a lvl 48 song. It's one of the better songs bards get as well. Don't sing it when there are enchanters about, coz it will interrupt mez. Infact try not to think of it as an AoE song.. Use it mainly on one target at a time. If others are around, don't sing it for the reason you explained above.

By lvl 48 you will have a group with a good cleric and a good Tank who knows how to taunt. Trust your Tank to keep the mob off you. I have not noticed any extra aggro while using this song. I have however noticed alot of benefits. It's a VERY good song. Just ask Paschendale, she loves it.. I heard her ranting about how good it is a few times. hehehe ;)

Good luck with it!

~ * ~ Flicx Stardrifter ~ * ~
Minstrel of the 54th Tunes
Knights of Eternity, Tarrew Marr

Zelandakh
Rockstar
Posts: 156
(5/18/01 4:30:02 am)
Reply Re: Selos' Chords of Cessation
If you are the main cc and you have a shammy in grp doing hastes and slows this is a useful song as psrt of a dmg twist - not only does it do good dmg but it also alerts you to the presence of any adds that may be out of your eyeline.

The other main use of this song for me is in ae grps. I sing this first up there so the mobs are slowed and to give a high taunt factor quickly. To be honest though this use gets replaced by assonair strane quite quickly as a the additional slowing and taunt outweighs the dmg typically.

(-: Zel :-)


https://web.archive.org/web/20010718010301/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=53 .topic

eqdiva
Diva
Posts: 198
(4/20/01 12:42:32 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
Shield of Songs
Yeah, it was my newest song, so I played it alot recently...

Anyway, with lute equipped, and chain-singing this song, with a twist of Hymn now and then, I can put the cleric out of a job.

I didn't realize the effects of the song were so dramatic, but everytime I played it, the healer of the group totally noticed, and did not want me to stop.

It does tend to aggro now and then, so hopefully you have a good chanter in your party. But, it might be nice to play if you find yourself in a group with lack of healing types.

Treebird
Guest Singer
(4/20/01 4:07:13 pm)
Reply shield of songs
I like but it does have a high taunt value and you have to consider whether twisting in nivs with hymn or replenishment might be better as with a seen strin lute it reduces about 52 points of damage. But it seems to only refresh when actually playing and only every 6 seconds even then so twisting it means a 52 reduction every twist round or about 15 seconds. So yo kind of have a decision to make depending on what you have memmed, how many taking damage etcetc. The only comment is that this might be better before anyone is damaged and heal songs when two or more are damaged.
Have fun - no end to decisions in a bardic life. (hehe)
also works very well with shaman slow.

Treebird Sparrasong
BArd of 54 songs (Nameless)


https://web.archive.org/web/20020102130713/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm2.showMessage?topicID=19 1.topic

Krullin
Composer
Posts: 50
(9/19/01 9:50:04 pm)
Reply Re: Song line ups for all you 60's out there...
From a bard with epic:
Exp withenchanter:
1. largo absonent binding (51). I like the great AC/agi debuff of this song with epic.
2. lvl 53 Mez (if the enchanter dies for some reason, no worries you are there!)
3. Cantata of replenishment (55).
4. Charm (39) / largo's melodic binding (20).
- charm if enchanter and I cooperate (ex: in velketors kobolts camp, I charm the non casting meeling mobs and they mez the casting - healers - ones).
- In Sebilis I usually have largo's melodic binding memed however.. If there is a nasty pulls, the song gets the slowed mobs on the bard (which can tank better than the enchanter...) and the enchanter can mez and the cleric can heal without being attacked and interrupted.
5. McVaxius rousing rondo
6. angslitch assonance (60): it adds to the dmg (45 dmg a tick with epic) and slows usually before the enchanter slows.
7. Occlusion of sound (55): good long distance song to pull or to help reduces resistances on a high lvl mob (like the named kobs in Velk) so a slow can land.
8. Kazumi note of preservation

I usually twist 1-3-5

Without enchanter:
1-2-3-5-6-7-8 usually remain the same (unless I am pulling I might drop one for lull).
I usually have charm and only charm memed in 4.

Raids (referring a lot to North ToV):
1. occlusion of sound
2. Verses of Victory (for the AC if I am in main tank group)
3. cantata of replenishment
4. McVaxius rousing rondo
5. Niv's harmonic (for the AC if I am in main tank group)
6. Anglistch assonace (it's fun to land a slow before the shaman on a mob that flurries every second...)
7. Song of dawn: on a big dragon I use it every once and then to reduce agro.
8. Kazumi note of preservation
(9. depending on the circumstances I will swap one song for either one of the psalm series or for elemental rythms).

Of course this is my song lineup. I don't say it's the best but it has worked rather well until now :) .


https://web.archive.org/web/20010421164459/http://www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=18

Saturday, April 21, 2001 27 bards singing in an orchestra online
Home > Songs > Denon's Disruptive Discord

Level 18 - Denon's Disruptive Discord Level:
50
Effect: AE DoT, Debuff
Target: Outward Radius AE
Brass
Description: Area Effect - DoT, Lower AC; Deals 20-30 damage per tick, reduces AC by 10-30 points. Careful of the taunt effect this song provokes.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303113837/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-2.html

GrollerDaBard
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 08:59 PM
Might as well just remove the songs now.
Replace them with the "Taunt" skill, since that's what these songs do anyway.

The Mage's suggested we get summon beer instead.

I could use a drink right now.

Groller the disillusioned bard


Nayami
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 10:52 PM

...

5. Defensive caps for Paladins and SKs raised, rangers get jolt and double damage bow attacks. Bards get ummmm nothing... At least give the bards an evade type of skill like the rogues. We get aggroed way to easy and fold like tissue paper when we get the mobs attention.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010304070423/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-3.html

Rynnia
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 10:57 PM
I ditched my bard last August when this line of spells stopped working. I couldn't melee too well so that was kinda boring.... I couldnt tank yet most everything would be mad at me for singing... so that was kinda un-fun... I could buff the party with stat increases, yet we all know stats do not affect the outcome of a battle significantly in the small quantities that a bard can increase them, I could haste the party with my songs but in a party with 6 people (of which 2 were probably tanks), it was better for me to sing manasong to let the casters nuke 1 or 2 more times per battle....

Dalakar_Daystar
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 12:56 AM
Ok, So I can take the Mez Songs not working. I never had the Snare and Lullaby songs Pre-nerf anyway, cuz I'm a post-Kunark n00b type person.
But What I want is the Ability to melee decently beyond level 20 or so. Here I am, fighting Pickclaw Lookouts and Guards in Highpass. Theres a full group, A Cleric, A Warrior, A druid, an Enchanter, A Shaman, and Myself. Anyway, We're fighting a Guard, and I'm tearing into with my Thulian Claws (A Gift from someone, I'm not a twink at all, This is my first char) and Polished Granite Tomahawk, Getting 8-12 Damage per swipe I'd say. Meanwhile, The Shaman (Also untwinked, Wearing mostly chain and leather) picks up his Hammer and is doing 20-36 damage a swipe. Yep, I'm getting outdamaged by a Shaman. Also, My Songs are aggroing the Guard on me, So The Cleric is busy healing me after about 15 seconds because I'm down to Half Health cuz the Warrior is having a Hard time taunting it off me.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010304071631/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-4.html

statchris
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 07:53 AM

I understand the complexities Verant faces in view of the Bard song being manaless.

...

It is my opinion that this line of songs needs to be fixed. You wouldnt know it from my calm discussion preceding, but I am actually quite miffed. I am happy that Verant is at least responding, but there is no way these songs are working as intended, unless the intent was a dysfunctional song - or a taunt song....we have enough of those though. From what I have heard so far, there has not even been official acknowledgement of dysfunctionality. This is what is creating almost uncontrollable impulses to slam my foot through the computer monitor screen. I imagine this is the case for many other bards. Perhaps there is no solution to please both parties, but for the sake of all the is melodious, please admit this is a problem. A level 50+ bard not being able to mez a single creature in a group of five level one mobs is not acceptable.

Please keep the lines of communication open Verant. It is the only thing keeping me sane right now.

Tunella,
Bristlebane

Leftie107
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 08:59 AM

"They aren't completely useless, just reduced in usefulness once the targets go over level 30. That said, we're not opposed to revisiting pixie strike and twilight to see if they need to be changed positively now that we know that lullaby is working correctly."

...

6. This song tends to aggro all the critters it affects how shall I say this? hmmm "a wee bit".

...

Bard must play this one and this one song only. Due to #6 and the fact that the rest of the group will focus on just one critter, all the other citters' attention will be on the bard. Because of #2-#6, the chance of a bard successfully mez all of the critters is pretty much anywhere from slim to none. Do you have any objection to the above conclusion?

...

Bard is the only crowd control person in the group. Bard starts playing the Lull song, everyone focus on one target, cleric keeps eyes on bard's hp bar. _ALL_ critters, except for the one being attacked by the group will have the bard on top of the hate list.[/B]


https://web.archive.org/web/20010304064939/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-5.html

Absor
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 10:19 AM
I had to stop reading partway through the thread, I do have real work to do today...
But here's the problem as I see it.

The song works with the percentage effectiveness that Verant wants it to. And I think I understand why. You just can't have a no mana, continuous mez with a good chance of success. It's too powerful.

On the other hand, players are saying that even as is, one break of the spell leads to a bard beating, which in turn causes the song to drop and an even bigger beating to occur. This makes singing this song a surefire taunt, and a certain death sentence to the bard.

Howsabout this as a solution.

Add a component to the song that will clear the bard from the hate list (or clear the whole hate list, if that's how those things work). So, yes, if the song fails the bard will get beat. But the ones that he successfully mezzed will not necessarily join the beating. This might fix the problem all around. It won't make the bard too powerful by being able to free mez the world, and it might keep the bard from getting beat to death every time. It's also fairly consistant with the song effect.

Tactics: In the moment decisions that come down to reaction time. Active, assertive gut choices.
Strategies: Experience-based responses that apply more broadly to overall approach. Passive, contemplative intentions.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010304065702/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-6.html

Woof359
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 02:41 PM
It's not that "lullabye isn't too hot after 30." It's that it's never even lukewarm. At level 16 I made the mistake of trying to play lullabye to some blue death beetles in Unrest, and I got spanked for it. 75% resist rate and they ALL aggro'd on me for it. I used up all of the cleric's mana. That was with 85 CHA (not the best, but give me a break, I was level 16) with an instrument.
The song is completely useless.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010304064804/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-9.html

E-Wolf
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 09:57 AM

...

Songs are NOT spells. They can't be cast then forgotten. Beneficial songs only affect group members. Direct damage songs are much weaker than even a warrior's BASH skill. Area effect spells get you killed because your tanking ability is nearly as weak as a caster. In fact, my druid can tank better. Everything about the class is weak to begin with. Yet I love my bard.

Finnias
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 03:51 PM
I don't really agree that bards should have some of the things that are asked for here, but I do think we are resisted way too often, and I think that the main song in question here, the lullaby, CERTAINLY has problems, even at pre-50 levels.
The first time my bard tried to use it, all it did was nearly get me killed and taunt everything off the tanks and onto me! It is a megataunt... and it's not very effective.

With that said, I'm very suprised that the very very small number of bards out there have managed to generate such a large thread! You'd think that this very fact in itself would cause Verant to take the issue a little more seriously...

As far as I'm concerned, they can make it not effective at 30+, but make it at least moderately useful at pre 30.

-Rian-
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 06:01 PM
Surely there is another way to balance our level 15 lullaby song besides making it not work at all. The song is broken, it doesn't work in any practical sense in any context I can think of within the game (beyond level 20 or so).
The only context that I can imagine you would actually use this song is if you needed to taunt multiple mobs to attack you at once. Perhaps this could be the new purpose for Lullaby. I suggest either fixing it, or renaming it. Perhaps "Terrible Taunt" might work. Or "Death Dare" or "Magnificent Manadump" something of that nature. Change the primary and secondary resist messages to read "YOU taunt a moss snake to ignore others and attack only you." Viola, fixed song.

Also, while you are at it, I suggest enchancing the abilities of Enchanters somewhat, further widening the gap between their percieved/real necessity as part of the group and the percieved/real risk of adventuring in kunark without them. Adventuring in Kunark without an enchanter is like the difference between driving a porche and taking your little brother's bigwheel. The only other class that approaches the real/percieved necessity of an enchanter in Kunark is a cleric. Luckily clerics are one of the most popular classes to play and there isn't really a shortage of them. I wonder how often bards would be sought out in groups if we didn't have a mana regen capability or if there were an abundance of high-level enchanters around. Seems to me, fixing the bard mez line - including lullaby - would kill two birds with one stone.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010304070005/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/011801-10.html

Lirana
Station Member posted 09-10-2000 03:51 AM
I got to thinking...maybe, just MAYBE, they named the song incorrectly, much in the way they neglected to mention the double resist checks. MAYBE, the song is supposed to be called "Kelin's Taunting Tremelo" and the "resist rates" that many of us have calculated were actually "success rates." MAYBE, the MOB "nods" because your taunts are boring the creature. You know, much in the way that sticking your tongue at someone when you are four years old is mean, but doing it when you are forty is just...dumb? So, MAYBE we've all been wrong, and the song does work correctly. Just a thought...


https://web.archive.org/web/20030511105843/http://pub2.ezboard.com/fselosmessaginglyricsgeneral.showMessage?topicID=5 .topic

Mythras
Registered User
(2/19/01 7:56:05 pm)
Reply
Re: Twisting and healing songs...
Why in the world would anyone think you can't solo a wood elf bard? At lvl 12 I could solo lego's in Crushbone with nothing but my fists and a lute and come out of the battle with only 1 bubble of damage (twisting Chords, Hymn, and Bellow). I just made 16th with my wood elf bard and I'm having a blast soloing in Unrest. And Taluvil is correct about the effect of Hymn, it really does alst three pulses

I also have a lvl 44 bard, and regarding Hymn, you are about to enter a period, late teens to mid twenties, where Hymn will get you killed faster than anything else when you are grouped and pull multiples. The aggro you build up with unengaged mobs will pull them on you like flies on....umm, like bees on a flower. By the mid twenties the tanks are able to out-aggro you with their damage dealing, but until then save Hymn for downtime when you are grouped. This thread is about soloing, but I just wanted to throw that out FYI regarding Hymn =)

Nahntanaj
Registered User
(3/15/01 1:36:45 am)
Reply Re: Twisting and healing songs...
I have too disagree with hymn building agro you jusy group wiht people who don't taunt. I had trouble building my defense skill for level 25 and 26 becuase I never got hit. Then I got the song of the sirens and that is agro OMG!


https://web.archive.org/web/20010421000324/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feverquestbards72780bardcursingroom.showMessage?to picID=14.topic

leeloominai
Unregistered User
(8/6/00 7:02:44 pm)
Reply We aren't tanks are we?
It seems like every group I get in I end up being a tank. Does this happen to you all or am i just being too nice? I died eight times today...eight...Also why do we get aggroed so much?

Twang
Registered User
(8/8/00 5:39:21 am)
Reply
Re: We aren't tanks are we?
Especially as you get higher in level, you will not be able to take the damage. At 51, I need two healers to have a chance at tanking (one usually does primarily buffs).

If you have other melee/hybrid classes in you group and you are still getting beat down, then you have one of a couple problems. Either the tank doesn't know how to taunt (problably not) or else you are dealing too much dmg coupled with your song aggro. One thing I had to learn the hard way was to back off. For the longest time, I had weapons above my level and an FBSS (pride myself on being a good bargainer). If you have a similar situation, and you are getting beat on, either only twist two song or turn off attack and step back once in a while. You might also try not attacking right away. All these options will help your tank remain high on the MOBs aggro list.
-Twang ALangADingBong
The Age of Wisdom
51 songs and growing


https://web.archive.org/web/20030301121001/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feverquestbards72780bardcursingroom.showMessage?to picID=4.topic

Shallie Dreamsong of CazicThule
Unregistered User
(12/4/99 6:31:11 pm)
Reply Is It Just Me, Or ...
... Does every Monster Attack the Bard in the Party, Even when Both Tanks are Taunting it?
... Does Lambent Armour Give about 4AC? It Looks nice, Sure, But I can swear my Banded was Giving me Higher AC!
... Have you ever Seen a 40th level Shaman cast Lesser Heal? Why Don't we get a Better Heal Song? Heck, why not a DH?
... Does **no one** relise that Hymn of Restoration Increases Healing Rate and/or Amount? I Swear, if one more person says "What do those Blue Sparkles do .." I'll scream!
... Do we get **no** Decent DD spells till were in the High levels, at which point were in Gruips who have Nukers & Casters?
... Is it Impossable to Twist/Twine Songs with a Cruddy Connection? Any one Wanna buy me a DSL Line for the Holidays?

Arg! Glad to Share my Littel annoinces with me Fellow Singers, now that I Hurt my Through Yelling .

May the Gods Find Favior with You,
Shallie Dreamsong
Cazic-Thule


https://web.archive.org/web/20010421000325/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feverquestbards72780bardcursingroom.showMessage?to picID=3.topic

Servo Eci
Unregistered User
(12/3/99 5:58:28 pm)
Reply WHY!!!
Ya know, I've gotten to 30th level, approaching 31st soon....what I want to know is why everything in the world HATES BARDS...

I mean, in a group, who's the first thing the monsters will come after? The Bard...I am in Cazic Thule now with my guild, and they end up healing me at least twice more then they heal anyone else, and to top it off, I will be the first to die when a train gets outta control (Just before the mages usually go OOM! heeheh)

But anyways...what is it with Verant, do they not like Bards? I have been in groups were I am the Higher Level player with people under me, and they STILL come after me...its gotten very annoying...and the Armor while nice...well...I think it still has some issues...I feel like I am wearing tissue paper sometimes the amount of damage I take.

Anyways, I think I have vented a couple of things off my chest...let's hear some more vents! I wanna know if I am not the only one who feels like the Bard is a Monster Magnet.

Now...I love being a Bard, the Selo Song makes it worth it alone, I love being able to outrun them SoW'ed people...hehehe...I often run by them and go BEEP! BEEP! Just would like to see some changes done to the monster S-List or something.

Later folks!
Servo
Bard of Ec'i

Kaolin Silvernote
Global user
(6/6/00 10:16:27 am)
Reply Re: Here's why
Get used to it, the problem only gets worse. Basically since bards are always singing, when a train comes normally maybe 1 of the mobs is mad at the puller, but the rest are just chasing the puller. Our songs that are hasting, healing, etc piss of the remaining mobs that came so they go for the bard. This gets more deadly when you head to the planes, and harder Kunark dungeons. It's the price of being a bard, among other things. The life of a bard is not an easy one, but every now and then it still pays off. Dragons anyone? ;)


https://web.archive.org/web/20010417071725/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feverquestbards72780bardinformationbardonly.showMe ssage?topicID=10.topic

Rian
Global user
(2/9/00 3:28:56 pm)
Reply
Re: More dumb newbie questions
1) Do group buff songs affect party members' pets as well? I thought they wouldn't until I thought I saw the song/spell effect graphics pulsing around a grouped necro's skellie.

Your group buff songs do not enhance pets unfortunetly. As posted above though, offensive AOE's will target and hit pets though not harm them. The only exception I have seen to this rule is if you are grouped with a Necro with a pet. Due to a bug or "feature" (whatever your perspective is), when necro's go linkdead their pets often go out of control. If you hapeen to have an AOE offensive song up and it hits the pet while it has no master, it may attack you.

2) It seemed when I was first doing research for my bard the general consensus was that investing points in STR was a short-sighted idea. But even with weapon skills maxed I'm still only hitting blues one out of three times (STR=75 unbuffed). Is it pretty common for low/mid level bards to seek +STR items (to raise ATK) as much as +DEX, +CHA, or +AGI stuff?

The high-level armor is pretty lightweight actually, but strength is never a bad thing. Just remember the two most important stats for a bard are Dexterity and Charisma. In my opinion, the third most important is AC, but there are arguments for and and against that.

3) Do buff songs (not the healing ones) increase aggro towards you from mobs your group is fighting? Every time my group (necro, 2 clerics, monk, rogue, me) pulled orcs in West Commons the orcs would pummel me into the ground ... even when I wasn't meleeing them, just singing away.

Yes. All of your buff songs are taunts. Some songs taunt more than others. Your songs will taunt more than your melee attacks will. The best thing to do is make sure the healer in your group is aware of this fact and pays special attention to your Hps. Short of that, if you are getting too much attention from the mobs, turn your song off and allow them to retarget. Stop attacking too if you have too. Casters have to do the same sort of thing, learn when it is "safe" to cast and when it is not. The same is true of bards. Don't be afraid to shut up.
Rian Luckless
The Cursed Bard


https://web.archive.org/web/20020114075815/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feverquestbards72780songs.showMessage?topicID=4.to pic

Tinvaran
Unregistered User
(6/8/00 8:59:24 am)
Reply Selo's Consonant Chain song
This song has been a staple for me from the first level I got it till now (level 35). Compared to caster's root/snare, it does the following:

[1] Very high taunt, repeated use is almost as good as charm, I have pulled Mobs off wizzies and melee types with it, even when they have done far more damage than I ever could. This of course is a two-sided effect...usually when I stop using it, the melee types can taunt the mob off ME (unlike charm) ;-)

[2] Slows the mob's atk speed by up to 30%, this is often not noticeable in the heat of combat, and I wouldn't vouch for the actual percentage, but it DOES slow them down some. When used in conjunction with an atk speed song like Anthem [group] or Warsong [self], the difference is very noticeable.

[3] Reduces the **vectored** movement of a mob by about 60%. This means that when a mob flees, the movement in the direction of its motion is reduced by this much, that is why when the mob is reduced to about 1/3 of its hp, it virtually comes to a halt if 'chained'.

I have also noticed that this song has recently been 'nerfed' by Verant, and that it often no longer lasts the full 3 ticks that it used to, before Verant introuced the message that tells you when it wears off. Hopefully this is a bug which Verant will fix (when they get around to it). As for the atk speed debuff, it appears that it too has been reduced in order to make the level 50+ songs look more attractive.


Evidence that bard aggro was still an issue post-Velious...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030815234540/http://www.magelo.com:80/eq_view_profile.html?num=347604

23:45:40 Aug 15, 2003

This is my main. I have gotten every item on me by myself, or in a group. I am not doing the absolute best melee damage that I could be, but since I keep drawing aggro from even 61 tanks, I dont think I want to be til I get my 53 aggro reducing song. Getting hit for 300+ damage hurts, even when it is only once in a while.


https://web.archive.org/web/20040707234132/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=31745

Author Thread: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
dpresley is not online. Last active: 7/7/2004 4:43:35 PM dpresley
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 38

I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 5:05 PM
I have a 58 sk and am used to getting and keeping agro from just about anyone in an ldon or any group for that matter (given that i am MT of course). My point is i know that it's possible and not TOO difficult to get and keep agro from a bard.

My question comes from the point of view of my bard. Every group im in... every ldon im in, the tank just doesnt get and keep agro. It ping pongs back and forth (mostly on me). I dont mind tanking, i can, but im sure the MH would REALLY like to just have to heal one player instead of 2.

I usually twist slow, haste, mana and misc song... pull with the MR reducing DD. I've even been starting my twist so that slow lands last to see if THAT was giving me agro so the tanks couldnt get it.

Is the problem me and the song line up im twisting, or is the problem that i've been finding folks that just dont understand agro? I've read thru the forums and found a few posts about tanking, and trying to get and keep agro as a bard, but not any about NOT keeping agro. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Semin Insane
60 Bard
Zeb Server
Black Rose Knights
My Magelo

wyndaria56 is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 12:23:20 PM wyndaria56
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 73

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 5:18 PM
Yer DOT is what's giving you the agro. Drop that and you'll be golden.

And, to answer your other question, if you are getting hit, YOU are the problem. That's the golden rule of agro. It's YOUR job not to get hit, not the tanks job to out agro you. As you're tank gets better gear and AA's, it will get easier, but for now, do less agro stuff and you'll get hit less.

I always pull with 65 Harmony of Sound (MR debuf with no dot) and then 64 Requiem of Time (52% slow). Once the tank hits the mob once, I never get hit again... And, if people start dying, I'm the last to get agro.

Good luck,
Wyndaria,
Maestro, Nameless.

Steppy is not online. Last active: 7/7/2004 4:59:08 PM Steppy
Forum Moderator
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 1139

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 6:05 PM
At 65, I land 2 or 3 effects on a mob between initial agro and when the MA takes over. One is Harmony of Sound to debuff resists. The second is Requeim of Time to slow the mob. I MAY initially pull with Druzzil's Disillusionment and than add in those two if I know the mob has a damage shield on it.

Now look at what those three do -- no damage. Debuff resists, slow attack speed, possibly dispell buffs or DS, but no damage. If you pull with a DoT or a larger DD, you establish a lot more initial agro.

Personally, I think a competent warrior or knight should STILL be able to pull agro off of you, but I do LDON with a 65 warrior who has anger-proc type weapons and if I am stacking DoTs on a mob, I can still take agro away from her. Our chants generate some truly vicious agro. Try pulling with Occlusion of Sound to set up your slower and let the MA get a few hits in before you do any damage and I bet you'll stop taking agro away. On a normal LDON or a hard at lower level, it isn't too big a deal it you take agro for awhile. At level 65, the mobs hit for 992 and have a huge attack rating -- a couple of those beating on a bard can kill him in seconds so you MUST be able to hand off agro quickly at that level.
Steppy Astravox
Code of Silence
Luclin Server

nadstar is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 11:45:13 PM nadstar
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 12

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 7:32 PM
I have noticed that if I pull with a DoT, then i will get agro occasionally when it gets back, so my suggestion is, dont pull with a DoT.

To me, the MT's job is to take hits, and hold agro that the other group members can effectivly do their jobs.

Ascher is not online. Last active: 6/18/2004 1:14:14 PM Ascher
Ascher's Homepage
Joined: 23 Jun 2003
Total Posts: 804

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 8:27 PM
Why do you pull with the dot? If your goal is to drop MR pull with OOS. Very little agro, most tanks can grab agro pretty fast from it. If the purpose is to just pull...simple, pull with song of dawn, its the lowest agro song we have (for obvious reasons) The tank will grab agro immediately.
Ascher Grey
Gorenaire winces.
Your feet move faster.

wyndaria56 is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 12:23:20 PM wyndaria56
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 73

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 9:35 PM
Also, for what it's worth, your agro lessens as you go up in levels. It may sound strange, but it seemed, the higher I got in levels, the less agro my songs had. Meaning, as I upgraded to higher and higher songs, I got agro less and les.

Early on, I used to swap agro with my wife (war) and we would duo using bard regen to heal. But, as we got up in levels, I stopped being able to get hit. So, maybe yer just not at that threshold yet.

Either way, don't pull with a DoT.

Wyndaria.

Marisha is not online. Last active: 6/4/2004 8:44:29 AM Marisha
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Total Posts: 38

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 31 04 2:53 AM
In my early years I used to grab aggro every now and then, but at later levels this becomes harder and harder as the real tanks (this excluded warriors in some extend but they have fixed that) grab aggro easier.

It's indeed partly the songs you play. I don't use DDs in a fight, and no DoTs. Our dots are pretty good (your best damage output too, till you get sufficient AAs etc.) and I once tested this with a monk. Monk was meleeing mobs while I was standing on a distance twisting dots. I simply out-aggroed the monk. Every time.

Our slows and snares are very low aggro, actually. Much lower than what Shamen and Enchanters cast at any rate. You'll frequently see a mob speed off to a chanter or shaman right after they slowed the mob - their spell is high aggro. The bard slow songs are very light in aggro, compared to that. Also OOS (Occlusion of Sound) or its upgrade (HoS) are very low aggro and thus good pulling tools (if you have epic or a drum). They lower the resists. Again, much less aggro than for example the Tash line.

When I didn't yet have my epic, and was helping meleeing in LDoNs I actually pulled with the single target 'cancel magic' song (can't think of the name right now). It's a bit higher aggro than pulling with slow or resist debuffs, but the advantage is that it often strips damageshields and other possible buffs mobs in LDoN are bestowed with.

If you then still have problems with aggro, you can consider putting the song 'Song of Dawn' in your lineup and twisting it in every now and then, to lower yourself on the hate list. The saber mentioned earlier (that drops in Chardok) procs the same effect, so that may help as well. In general you probably don't want the aggro, as getting beat upon also means that you get interrupted/stunned and that seriously messes up your twist efficiency/fluency.

Finally, I also agree that it's not the bard's fault to get aggro if they do (at later levels, I'm not talking of level 10, 20) unless they are specifically provoking it (i.e. dotting like crazy, chain singing damage rune song, etc. they are all very high aggro generators), it's the task of the tank to try and maintain aggro. Paladins can do this with stuns, Shadowknights have the slows and Terror line, Warriors have the provoke line, all of them have taunt (and even though the latter is far from reliable, it does help at times).

Good luck.

Greylok is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 4:13:02 PM Greylok
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Total Posts: 33

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 31 04 7:50 AM
Like everyone has said, don't pull with the dot. I pull with HoS and/or RoT, and I stop songs as I pull it into camp. I run to just beside/behind the tank, and don't attack til he does. It's more just habit but I try to do every possible thing to keep aggro off me. The only difference there is if I have two or more coming, I'll sing Wind of Marr so the adds will run to me instead of a caster. Lazy way to target is to hit escape, hope it hits me, and mezz. In my particular group, the MT assists off me to get their target, so switching to mezz before the target is in the room isn't the best choice.Smiley

When I was lower level, I also pulled with the snare/slow. I often fight with knights tanking, so aggro isn't a problem at all for them. I still am courteous and don't sing or attack til they cast snare/stun and attack though. I don't want to make anyone burn through mana. I'm just a tad more careful on warriors, but the warriors I have tank for me know how to get their aggro well, especially since we all work with them on it.Smiley
Muse Greylok Tenma Maestro of Capulus
Sage Meeka DarkbaneCoercer & GL of Capulus


Aggro reduced again in mid-late 2004, this time effecting the chant dots mentioned as generating a lot of hate above, only months earlier. There is also mention of an earlier nerf to hate that came in Kunark, likely pertaining to the patch that made hymn and heals in general less problematic (linked below).

https://web.archive.org/web/20041101193105/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=54676

Natureboy is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 6:14:32 AM Natureboy
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Total Posts: 100

Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 1 04 4:12 PM
Has there been any official statement from Sony as to why they reduced agro on our songs (chants verified not sure of what else)?
Hoping it was unintentional, I would like to be able to agro kite again with friends.

barbai
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Total Posts: 986

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 1 04 11:20 PM
do you mean if there was any change recently or when they made the change in kunark?
“Allow my song to heal your wounds, clear your mind, and hasten your blade”

JyveAFK is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 12:05:20 AM JyveAFK
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 96

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 2 04 1:26 AM
There is a HUGE difference in aggro on chants now.
Nice as it has been occasionally to twist the chants while pet holds aggro easily, it's impossible for me to aggro kite now.

Jyve

Pizzicato is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 10:35:34 AM Pizzicato
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Total Posts: 72

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 7 04 5:49 AM
The thing that scares me is when they try to 'fix it' if they do....

I can easily see them making it so the songs generate too much aggro again....

I know the coding of bard aggro must be very difficult and so mistakes are made...Just be thanksful it was only the chants affected and to lessen aggro... I don't fancy having the problems (even for a short while) of bard songs generating too much aggro again...
signature

Tangerine is not online. Last active: 10/29/2004 8:07:35 PM Tangerine
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 103

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 8 04 1:41 PM
Bah! WTB decent agro from my chants again. A few months ago, I was able to hold agro just fine in Time phase 1 with chants. Now, with BOC in primary, ED in secondary, and twisting 3 dots/marr, monks can steal my agro Crying. This sucks, because the times that I play for exp or questing, there are usually no tanks online with more HP than I. At least the cleric I bot doesn't steal agro with his heals, but, thats about it.....I lose agro to beasts, wizards and rogues etc, like mad, even when they wait 20% of the mobs health to assist. Only good thing I could see from this is being able to twist full dots on time gods with shaky agro, so they don't turn around to take a swipe at me, and cause deaths to my raid (and myself, of course). Haven't been in Time for a while to test this though, so not sure.
Midwinter
Tangerine Twist
No, I deleted my mana song, sry.


Relevant changes made to hate in 2001 patches.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020210231054/http://eq.stratics.com/content/patches/p02212001.shtml

February 21st, 3:00 am
------------------------------

Today's patch contains a wide variety of enhancements and changes. Due to the number of changes being made, this list is primarily a summary. Extended descriptions of the changes and the reasoning behind them can be solicited on the EverQuest Message Boards.

...

** NPC AI - Hate **

We've made a number of changes to NPC AI, specifically to the section dealing with target-selection, or what's commonly referred to as "Hate". It is not so much that NPCs react differently to hate now than before, but that we've changed the way that hate is awarded.

We reduced the amount of hate that can be caused by a proc. Due to the high proc rates at upper levels, the amount of hate generated from procs, and the spells that were selected for those procs, made keeping the attention of the creature much too easy a task for the tank. Simply, it nearly eliminated the challenge of keeping a foes attention at levels above 50.
We've capped the amount of hate that can be awarded to most casters, specifically for debuff-type spells like the Malo and Tash series. The hate calculation for these spells takes into account the number of hitpoints of the NPC and did not "play nice" with the increased HP limit of Velious. It explains why Enchanters, for instance, would complain that casting a Tash spell would lead to near-instant death.
We've redressed the amount of hate generated by heal spells. Previously, and *partly* due to a bug, the high level heal spells such as superior heal or complete heal would generate no more hate than greater heal. In fact, so little hate was generated by these spells that it made controlling NPC aggression trivial. Heal spells will now generate an amount of hate more in line with the number of hitpoints actually healed. Due to our desire to leave the lower level game more or less untouched, two separate caps have been placed for targets level 50 or below, and 51 or above. Heal spells will generate significantly less hate for targets below level 51 than those at or above that level.
We've also re-evaluated ways that players have to reduce their own hate. While spells in place to allow this are OK, the Evade skill (possessed by rogues) let them out of their damage too easily. A rogue that successfully evaded would immediately drop to a level of hate lower than someone who was in the awareness range, but hadn't done anything to really upset the creature such as damage it or heal its foe. This problem was exacerbated by the increase of the size of the hate list implemented with Velious.


https://web.archive.org/web/20011206065659/http://eq.stratics.com/content/patches/p03062001.shtml

March 6th, 3:00 am
------------------------------

...

** PC AI Adjustments **

Level 60 players with the taunt skill will now have a chance to taunt creatures that are level 60 to 65. Previously, players could only taunt creatures below their level.
NPCs that are mesmerized or stunned will now only add a very small amount of hate when they see you cast beneficial spells on their enemies. Prior to this, they would add full hate when they saw you do this. This is why NPCs would always jump the cleric after breaking Mez.
Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much 'temporary hate' when a player would sit down in front of them.
The maximum amount of 'hate' that an NPC can add when witnessing a heal to targets above level 50 has been decreased substantially.
Hate from heals is also now calculated at a lesser number than the number of hitpoints healed. Previously, healing one hitpoint would cause one point of hate. Now, healing 3 hitpoints will cause 2 points of hate.

Supposing these patches did lessen the hate generated by songs, not all songs were reduced or at least not to the same extent (since dots and shield of song were reported to draw aggro long after Velious in comments previously posted).

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20011201041329/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song18.htm

DENON's DISRUPTIVE DISCORD
Level: 18

Effect: Damage over time, lowers targets' AC

Skill: Brass

Target: Area Effect

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:41:28


https://web.archive.org/web/20011201045043/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song20.htm

LARGO's MELODIC BINDING
Level: 20

Effect: Lowers targets' AC and attack speed(-28%)

Skill: Singing

Target: Area Effect

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: Attack speed debuff does not stack with Consonant Chain's or enchanter/shaman attack speed debuffs.

Taunt: High

...

Cautions:

Due to the high taunt factor be careful when using in a multi mob pull. The good thing is that it will not break Enchanter mesmerize since it is a straight debuff with no damage component.

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:46:56


https://web.archive.org/web/20011201015809/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song27.htm

SOLON's SONG OF THE SIRENS
Level: 27

Effect: Charm

Skill: Wind

Target: Single

Location: Kelethin

Does not stack with: Mesmerize type spells

Taunt: Very high

...

Cautions:

[Rokenn] This song has no effect in PvP combat. This is on the PvP servers only, charm will work in duels on blue servers.
The song tends to have a pretty big taunt effect. If you're left with a pet with a considerable amount of life left, it will beat on you for quite a while as your party attacks it from behind. A tank can sometimes get it off you with a taunt and high-damage hit, but be prepared to really take a beating until your party gets the former pet off you.

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:39:49


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204171741/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song28.htm


CRISSION's PIXIE STRIKE
Level: 28

Effect: Mesmerize, lowers magic resistance, Knock back effect

Skill: Wind

Target: Single

Location: Kelethin

Does not stack with: Overrides enchanter's mesmerize line of spells

Taunt: Medium

...

Cautions:

Any attack against the mob will wake it up, so be sure to inform your party when you do this.
If a NPC is DoT'd it will wake up whenever the DoT applies damage.
[Berrymoor] [B]Multi uses of this song on a single mob tends to build up the hate list to very high levels (on the threshold of charm). After mezzing a target about 5-7 times, I've noticed that my enchanter often has to do a mem blur 2-3 times before the hate list is fully cleared, just like some charms.


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204173707/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song30.htm

FULFIL's CURTAILING CHANT
Level: 30

Effect: -Magic Resistance, Damage over Time (magic based)

Skill: Percussion

Target: Single

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:46:16


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204190620/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song38.htm

TUYEN's CHANT OF FLAME
Level: 38

Effect: Decreases heat resistance, damage over time (heat based)

Skill: Percussion

Target: Single

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:39:42


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204190112/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song39.htm

SOLON'S BEWITCHING BRAVURA
Level: 39

Effect: Charm, -MR (Limited to mobs your level or 51st whichever is lower)

Skill: Wind

Target: Single

Location: Kelethin

Does not stack with: Enchanter's mesmerize line of spells

Quantified: Charms the target turning it into your pet for anywhere from 0 to about 15 seconds. Using a wind instrument increases the magic resistance reduction (unconfirmed). This song is highly dependent on your charisma, and will use 20 mana whenever pulsed.

Taunt: Very High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:40:18


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204195238/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song46.htm

TUYEN's CHANT OF FROST
Level: 46

Effect: Decreases cold resistance, damage over time (cold based)

Skill: Percussion

Target: Single

Location: Freeport, Qeynos

Does not stack with: N/A

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:36:19


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204200926/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song48.htm

SELO's CHORDS OF CESSATION
Level: 48

Effect: Decrease attack speed(-16%) and damage over time.

Skill: String

Target: Area effect

Location: High Hold

Does not stack with: Largo's Melodic Binding or other attack speed debuffs.

Taunt: High

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:38:49


https://web.archive.org/web/20011005115915/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/Song49.htm

SHIELD OF SONGS
Level: 49

Effect: Damage Absorption

Skill: String

Target: Party

Location: Erudin, Freeport (Seafarers Roost)

Does not stack with: Niv's Melody of Preservation

Quantified: 20 point rune sung; 40 point rune with lute

Taunt: High

Analysis by Rokenn Swiftsong, Karana server

Comments: Adds a Rune type effect to the entire party. Using a string instrument increases the amount of damage absorbed.

Strategies:

Cautions:

Previous List Next Home Feedback on this song

Update: 09/19/2001 07:39:36


https://web.archive.org/web/20011204204331/http://eqsongs.com/Songs/song51a.htm

LARGO's ABSONANT BINDING
Level: 51

Effect: Slows movement and attack speed, lowers AC and AGL

Skill: Singing

Target: Single

Location: Firiona Vie

Does not stack with: Selo's Chords of Cessation

Taunt: High

Quantified: ?

Analysis by Rokenn Swiftsong, Karana server

Comments: This is an upgrade to Selo's Consonant Chain. The snare effect is weaker then Consonant Chain. When used on myself (at 51st) it lowered AC by over 60 points.

...

Update: 09/19/2001 07:46:24

[Dolalin]

Have a read through what Torven has done on hate research from the old Al Kabor server. Lots of empirical evidence that devs here rely on. Haynar even works on both projects.

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

[Ennewi]

Have a read through what Torven has done on hate research from the old Al Kabor server. Lots of empirical evidence that devs here rely on. Haynar even works on both projects.

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

While the direct links/quotes pertaining to heal aggro/etc are very relevant, the tests involving bard songs seem questionable for one reason.

Non-damaging detrimental bard song hate seems to be capped 40 on level 20+ NPCs.

Both my level 26 and level 90 bards were doing 40 hate for non-damaging detrimental spells on mid to high level NPCs.

On NPCs below level 20, Largo's Assonant Binding did more than 40 hate. On a level 1 NPC it was doing 55 hate; on a level 19 NPC it was doing 127 hate. (~711 hp) Likewise Selo's Consonant Chain also did more than 40 hate on targets below level 20. Requiem of Time did 47 hate on that same level 19 NPC. On level 20+ NPCs they all did a flat 40 hate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_expansions

House of Thule
EverQuest: House of Thule
Developer(s) Sony Online Entertainment
Publisher(s) Sony Online Entertainment
Release October 12, 2010
The seventeenth expansion pack, EverQuest: House of Thule, was released on October 12, 2010.

Maximum level increased to 90.

So far, player comments point to a drastic reduction in bard aggro some time during 2004 which included procs. Before that, and as late as mid-2003, there remained a general consensus that bards could out-aggro most any other class, often inadvertently.

[Ennewi]

After the 2003/2004 reduction to song aggro.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050218163732/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=21053

ninuvian is not online. Last active: 3/10/2004 8:39:19 PM ninuvian
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 5

Can bards be tanks?
Posted: Feb 12 04 4:35 PM
Hey all i just wanna know if bard can tank?
I sing for glory! I sing for rallos zek! http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=933661

delanion is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 8:21:14 AM delanion
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Total Posts: 22

Re: Can bards be tanks?
Posted: Feb 12 04 4:45 PM
Yes, bards can tank. No, they don't do it particularly well. We have armor like a pally / Sk, but hp like a ranger, defensive skills a little lower than any other hybrid(iirc), and very little capability to get and maintain aggro.

If you want to be a bard capable of tanking, then focus on AC / hp gear over all other stats. This is how I built my bard and I would definately say I am more versatile because of it. Getting and maintaining aggro is half a function of you working at getting it, half a function of everyone else letting you have it. Dots and Shield of Songs are good ways to get aggro in groups, depending on level.

...

corahvz is not online. Last active: 10/7/2004 7:44:11 PM corahvz
Joined: 06 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 4

Re: Can bards be tanks?
Posted: Feb 12 04 5:57 PM
Yea, we can tank - it's keeping agro that is the real problem!
Muse Corah
Maestro ~ Defiant ~ Vallon Zek

...

Canorous is not online. Last active: 10/7/2004 8:13:05 PM Canorous
Canorous's Homepage
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 13

Re: Can bards be tanks?
Posted: Feb 12 04 11:16 PM
As I remember one bard in EQDiva telling me a while back "We do not play to hold agro, we pray to hold agro." Lived by it ever since ;)


https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=18069

RE: Bards agro
Quote
Reply
#Jan 25 2005 at 8:41 PMRating: Decent
__DEL__1591764570069
*
229 posts
Yes. Bard aggro was reduced across the board a long time ago. The problem was the huge aggro generated by things like AE regen, which heals everyone in a raid.

I can snare, HoS (resist debuf), slow and bellow at a mob while bringing it into camp. A warrior can shoot an arrow and miss and it heads straight for him. Actually, he doesn't even have to do that. If he's still hitting on the last mob it will peal off on him as it passes by.

FYI, bards do get double attack via AAs. Not as good perhaps, but we still get it.



Before the 2003/2004 reduction to song aggro.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020111131300/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=325

E: Bardic Frustration Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Sun, Apr 1st 6:29 PM 2001 Score: Good[4.00]
ooc
I play a bard on Tallon Zek, and she is wonderful. All I can say is, the best is yet to come. Be happy with your level, because with each level, you have something new to play with.

In terms of combat, the songs I play/decide upon, depends on the group itself, and what the group is doing.

At early 20's, my best experience was in a full group at the porch of the sarnak fort. We were going almost non stop, train after train, we did that for a three days, and apparently the group told me it could not be done without a bard. (me).

What was I doing?

Tanking with weapons, tanking with instruments, slowing, snaring, mezzing with instruments, mezzing without instruments, healing with instruments, anthem, pulling off casters, etc. It depends on whether its tank heavy, caster heavy, has fidgety members etc.

You, of all people, have to guage the group, and see. For example, a certain puller tends to like to pull large trains. And a certain wizard in the group likes to over nuke.

What to do? Well, mez song comes to mind. But also snare. In this case, if there's a good tank, I may not use snare. If tanks are not good, I go with weapons and snare to make sure that I can taunt off the poor wizard. Or, I may use Mez with an instrument and switch to all CHR gear.

RE: Some advice on Brass Reply... By: Kollins, Sage
141 posts
Posted @ Thu, Apr 5th 7:11 AM 2001 Score: Excellent[4.66]
Brass can be improved without it affecting anything you just don't get any animation. The best thing to do with brass instrument skill is to not put a point into it until you get your song at 18. If you train at 18 then you start with a skill of 18 not a skill of 11 and it makes it easier to start the song and the skill doesn't have to go up as much. As for what/how the ultimate would be to don enough gear for 200 int and drop your bard in the non-PvP part of The Arena for however long your ISP will let you stay (afk of course) but some alternatives are the tunnel in N Ro as suggested and also the top of the ramp to highpass in EK, up on the sides. EC side of the tunnel is dangerous, some wise guy will see you and train one of those butt kicking ninja merchants down on you when your afk. Any isolated spot works but it's best if you are far enough away from mobs/guards/NPCs that only a fellow bard could survive trying to train something that could kill you.

All you have to do is mem your song, put your horn in your offhand and fire it up. Then you just go afk for a good 6-8 hour span and when you come back to your computer you will see you have brass skill now (if you get dumped you can always check your log file for your current skill.) As with most skills some stats seem to affect the speed you skill up, for instruments it seems to be the higher of int or wis like trade skills so grab some int gear if you have it since that will help; Most bards have higher int than wis and technically we are int casters although I won't get into bard mana here. This is easy to do if you start up a song before you go to bed, then check it in the morning. It's also handy to put in an AFK message although I had put in '/afk practicing brass skill' and when I checked my logs a few people had sent me tells then replied to my afk message like they didn't belive it.

After you get your skill maxed it's a good idea to find a semi remote spot and play it every new level so you keep the skill current. Other instrument skills are easy because there are non damage songs that you can use but brass is the most annoying because of the types of songs that use the skill until you get berzerker crescendo at 42 (crappy song btw, I had better luck using the old celerity song over crescendo.) Once you get to level 26 you can practice with appalling screech which opens up the places you can practice a little to now include any zone where you can 'scare' anything that gets trained to you before it tries to kill you, like gfay.

The reason you want your instrument skills maxed is because any song that requires an instruement skill will have a higher fizzle rate, known to bards as missed notes, if you have low skill, this includes songs that you 'sing' with weapons equipped which start or don't start based on their skill ie if your string skill sucks you can't start up hymm even if you have your swords equipped. The reason you want brass skill is because DDD is a killer AE DoT and a great mega taunt for keeping your group healers free (it's also fun to kill newbie mobs with) and fear song is something that you will almost always have memmed from 26 to 60.

Oh yea, in case anybody didn't know, the max skill for all instrument skills and singing is the formula: (level + 1) * 5


https://web.archive.org/web/20020111125816/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=275

RE: Stats and Armor Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 15th 9:58 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Hi, I'm a 51 bard on rodcet nife and as people call us, "jack of all trades" you have to take that into concideration everywhere you go. At the lower levels(15-30) i solo'ed everywhere i went. I think the only reason why i could do this was because i was a twink, but when you buy armor you have to consider what you need the most. I had two pieces of SS armor and mith for the str. I rocketed through the levels because of the ac and str i could solo. Later in the 30's i had to concentrate more towards grouping a little and that means new armor(yes trading armor is time consuming but it helps). You have to start working for AC items and that means ss because it has better AC than some planar. At my level, AC is god, plain and simple. Str, dex,agi,cha you don't really need to concentrate on because that shammy in your group can raise it over 50 points. You have to think about what you use and your armor will decide whether you live or you don't. When a protector of growth misses you 4 times in a row, you sit back and smile because you would have easily been down to 1/2 life. Bards do not do dmg at higher levels. I hate to say this ,but that mage pet in my group hits harder than i do, but bards aren't about the dmg, it's the songs we do, and when we get too much agro, we have to have the AC to hold off while the cleric heals the tanks. I hope my info has helped in any way, shape or form and good luck in the hunting. Kunark is simply the best place to fight 18-50.
H. Silvertune
51 minstrel of Rodcet Nife
Long live Anarchy's dominion!!


https://web.archive.org/web/20020111130016/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=250

RE: Need More Advice Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, May 18th 12:40 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
IMHO, you can twist your lvl 1 song Chant of Battle and lvl 6 song Hymn of Restoration to buff and heal your party during battles. Try to throw in your lvl 2 song Chords of Dissonance in between if you could. At lower level your tanks won't be doing massive demage yet, so I'd suggest you to melee as well if you are not in a full group/nearly-full group while twisting songs. Watch out for the mobs though. Since your songs have a huge taunting effect, you might get several mobs aggro on you instead of the tanks. At time like this, stop your songs and let the tanks to tuant the mobs off you. Then you can start twisting again. =)After you hit lvl 8 and have learned the skill of stringed instruments, you can have a choice of playing instrument instead of doing melee when you are in a full group/nearly full group. Since both the Chords and Hymn are more powerful when played with stringed instruments, you can DoT and heal your group more while still buffing them with the Chant. Of course, don't forget to play your Hymn during down time. =)

Hope this helps.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020111124821/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=225

RE: Attribute allocation. Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, Jun 5th 8:18 AM 2001 Score: Default[1.50]
Post 50 bards are the best crowd controlers as they have the AC to handle the agro generated by the mobs. Enchanters die to fast.
The only thing that matters to charm/mezzing is Charisma. Therefore put all your points into CHA to allow better crowd control. Then put the remaining into DEX for better instrument playing. Dont worry bout str or stam, you roll is not to generate dmg, but help the group generate dmg.
Hope this helps.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020111121210/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=125

Tactics Reply... By: riffler,
5 posts
Posted @ Wed, Aug 22nd 7:47 PM 2001 Score: Decent[3.00]
Haven't played my Bard for months, but reading the discussions on what songs to play reminded me of the time I was camping orcs in HHP...
It was a quiet time on the server, and I was grouped with 2 tanks, noone else around. With a group that small ( all level 18-19 ) the orc camps is pretty much impossible without significant twinkage, right?
Wrong. I let the tanks take an orc each while I played area DoTs and heal, swapping instruments and trying to stay out of trouble. It was very tiring work, but we held the camp for about an hour, no problem, when more people started to join up (including a cleric, thankfully :) ). I was too tired to pay much attention to what was going on, and anyway, most of the orcs were still dying from DoTs, suggesting I was still outdamaging everyone else, so I stuck with my tactics, when the group suddenly got into a mess - not taking orcs down quickly enough, and getting hit by fast respawn. There I was still playing area DoTs/ heals and therefore getting MASSIVE aggro from 5 or 6 orcs. OUCH. I just carried on - no way were they going to leave me alone with my hps down to where they were and all that aggro already achieved, and fortunately the cleric managed to heal me and all the orcs were killed and I survived.
So, my point is, use of unusual songs by a switched-on bard can make a group far more effective than it has any right to be. Don't just unthinkingly play what's worked in the past or what people tell you to play, THINK. And most of all, if the situation changes, RETHINK :(

RE: Endevor Reply... By: Belinar,
5 posts
Posted @ Mon, Aug 27th 10:57 AM 2001 Score: Excellent[4.50]
We was talking about twisting Hymn during battle, I believe.

Here's what I do. As a lvl 32 ( soon to be 33 ) bard, this is a good line-up ( according to my groups )

...

** note here **
After you sick your pet on the mob, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hit F1 twice and re-target your pet! forgetting to do this can really mess up your CC. Charm is the most Uber taunt in the world...it put's all other forms of taunt to shame, and unless you charm the same one over and over again, you'll have an entire host of former pets a little annoied at you. ( I'd even venture to say it's on par or better than complete heal )


https://web.archive.org/web/20020308121057/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=50

RE: Bards = CRAP Reply... By: Mahatma, Scholar
42 posts
Posted @ Thu, Nov 8th 1:09 PM 2001 Score: Decent[2.70]
Actually, a bard can quite effectively steal the aggro off a caster that has over nuked or the enchanter whose mez just got resisted in a mere 6 seconds. How? Remember that charm song you get at level 28 and 39? Well, it also has a mem blur effect tacked onto the end of it. The mob will not remember who or what did the damage it has received, but it WILL remember that the bard charmed it and it must've done something it didn't really want to do. Now the mob is rushing the bard!

Ack!! Bards can't take hits very well!

Well, when the bard hides to erase the charm, the chanter can just throw on a root or try to mez again, now that he/she's not getting interrupted. Or the bard takes a few more hits than the caster could while the main tank taunts it off. Or the bard doesn't hide and uses his new pet to kill the other mob that just jumped that cleric that's medding for your heals.

Alone, bards kindof stink (if you're looking at them from a warrior's perspective). They can't melee or deal significant damage, and they can't rapidly heal lost hitpoints. But a bard in a group makes a very strong group. Case in point...

4 Tanks, 1 Cleric: The bard twists regen and haste for the tanks, possibly slows down the mob's attack so the fight doesn't last long, thereby reducing the amount of mana the cleric has to use to heal up those sacks of hitpoints. During downtimes, the bard is regenning the cleric's mana and the other tanks hitpoints while the puller is busy finding a mob.

Some groups you would normally consider just a pogrom of the most ineffective classes, when coupled with a bard, become killing machines. Rangers don't tank too well, shamans don't heal as well as a cleric, Pallies tank, but don't deal damage and don't heal too well, etc.

Summary: Bards are the utility-man of any group.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020308120021/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&start=25

A Bard does need an Audience indeed. Reply... By: kezefy,
1 posts
Posted @ Wed, Jan 23rd 12:20 AM 2002 Score: Decent[3.00]
Ever since I achieved the 50th level with my bard I receive numerous tells on what is the best way to play a bard. So I figured I'd share a few of the tricks I have learned.

Method 1: Solo, find a nice wide open area. Twist Selos (lvl 5), Largos melodic binding (lvl 20), Fufils (lvl 30), Chant of flame (lvl 38), Chant of Frost (lvl46).
*All songs except Largos are precussion so no instrument changes need. Also particularly effetive with nostrolo tambourine. (you can look up quest on this site)
*note this method does work at lower levels, but not nearly as effective without the 3 chants, also change out selos with newer version at lvl 49, and newer Largos at lvl 51.

Method 2 (my preferred method) Partner. Find a druid or a necro, put your partner in a safe spot. Pull a mob, with method 1 (also fyi if you have a druid, eliminate selos and take a sow, yes I know selos is faster, but sow is more dependable when twisting) bring back to your partner, they will root mob, and because necro and druid have Dot's they will not break root. You will hold aggro if you twist all 3 chants because you will be doing a little over 2000dmg in 60 secs with continuous twisting. If root breaks just run around till they are rerooted. A good necro or druid will only cast 1 or 2 dots per mob and will be able to med the rest of the time. They should never run out of mana, especially the necro with call of bones and lifetap. If done properly and if you dont aggro adds, you can do this without ever taking a hit, or having to stop and medditate. This has proven to be awesome exp for me and my partners.

Method 3 Group..Whatevers clever... each group is diff..but I recommend you position yourself between tanks and healer. The bard should be looked at as a healers assistant ie mana and deffense. You can still fight, but just from behind the front lines, whether it be with songs, or melee. FYI if you use your 3 chants you will prob do more dmg than the tanks. You'll notice this once you gain the aggro so be careful, contrary to popular belief...BARDS ARE NOT TANKS..we are not very good at it.

also one last point for you new prospective bards out there

Method 4 Solo in dungeons...DONT DO IT...without selos we get rocked, unless everything is absolute green, a blue mob will rock you.


https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1754

RE: I don't see the point
Quote
Reply
#Dec 01 2003 at 2:13 AMRating: Decent
__DEL__1593966228402
*
194 posts
I think this song is very useful. There are many reasons why a bard could get a big mob aggroed on him. For example I could have been mezzing the mob, or I could have charmed the mob, or it could be an add that no one has done anything to which jumped on me as soon as it noticed i cast a group-wide buff (which generates aggro, of course, and happens every 3 seconds). And whether a bard can 'take hits' is not the point, you don't want mobs dishing out melee damage to many different people; it just makes it harder for your healer to keep up with it. I ALWAYS have this song memmed when I'm grouped in a dungeon, and find it quite useful.

I don't see the use of this song while soloing at all, though. If you want a mob to go after your charmed pet instead of you, just hit it with any targeted snare song and run away a bit. The mob will give up trying to chase you as soon as it realizes it's snared and will go after the pet... and as long as you don't generate more aggro, it'll stay on the pet even after the snare wears off.


Commenter below indicates that at least certain specific procs were reliable sources of aggro for bards which does not support the notion that bard procs were all equally capped at that point, much less earlier.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040817000208/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=8536#13136

Anulien is not online. Last active: 8/15/2004 1:40:09 PM Anulien
www.triadica.us
Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 156

My tankbard game
Posted: Jun 25 03 9:42 PM
After getting bored yet again with my bard and kitting i decided to find something new to do with him, my new fun with my bard has been tanking. For the past month ive been cruising around finding things to tank that would normally be left to a real tank for taunt or hp purposes. I have found this to be one of the most enjoyable things to do with my bard. The exp usually sucks as my melee dps is low but the sheer exhiliration is worth it. I do not recommend this for everyone as the prep work has taken me some time and i have resources most dont, but if you are looking for something new to try this might be it.

...

Weapons:
Primary: Snowchipper or Pebble Crusher for proc aggro

...

Absolute riot! CHs back to back until slowed as they can double for 500+ a hit and do! Single pulled to exit, slowed at 90 and aggro was easy to maintain with pebble crusher + snowchipper.


Charm still considered to be a reliable source of aggro, with dots being described as one alternative and slow being a mainstay.

Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 440

Re: My tankbard game
Posted: Jun 26 03 3:38 AM
2300 unbuffed?? Gah, and you are tanking man?? I have 2545 unbuffed and I am few levels lower than you...got 1250 or so AC as well.

I find the level 27 charm to work great as a taunt....wont land, but resisted it still adds nice aggro, lol.

I have also found out that 3 dots and melee works well for gaining aggro, then after about 4 or 5 rounds of dots, drop them, and go blender mode with haste, buffs, and DS.

I duo all the time with my wifes druid, and I run a 70+ point DS depending on the song, which helps a lot in getting mobs dead.

I tank all the time with only bard slow, lol, and druid heals, hehe. However, what you lack in your toons is evac. Evac is your friend, lol. Something going bad? Mez and evac, all is well. Cant mez? Root and highsun, then evac fast before the train arrives.

Mystaviant BattleBard

Virtuoso

Mystaviant is not online. Last active: 1/25/2004 3:29:59 PM Mystaviant
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Total Posts: 440

Re: My tankbard game
Posted: Jun 30 03 5:43 AM
I havent found that SoS is any appreciable aggro. Angstlich's Assonance is nice aggro however, and will slow unsnareable mobs. I usually avoid mobs that cannot be mezzed, as that means that my healer/slower is toast if they pull aggro off me.

Also, on bard-slow...lots and lots of mobs, especially in pop have innate haste, or like in seb have haste spells cast on them, when you slow these types of mobs, you not only slow them 35%-52% but you also remove the effects of their haste as well, so it affects the rate at which they swing a rather large amount.

Example: Seb, random high level frog, hasted by a shammy frog...w/o I need 3 druid c-heals to win the fight, with slow, even 20% slow, I need 0-1 cheal, and take well less damage than a simple 4/5 of normal. Bard slow aint all that bad, on hasted mobs, tho I would much rather have a chanter there for 70% haste and slow, and to CC for me.

Mystaviant BattleBard

Virtuoso

Summary: Comments pertaining to bard songs from launch to late 2001, all the way until mid 2003, do not reflect what was described from tests conducted and based on 2010+ content.

[Ennewi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_expansions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_expansions#:~:text=EverQuest%3A%20Omens% 20of%20War%20was,increasing%20the%20cap%20to%2070)

EverQuest: Omens of War was released as the eighth expansion on September 14, 2004, continuing the September–February release data cycle. The expansion focused on high-level content and introduced new folklore to the EverQuest universe. This expansion: Added five more levels, increasing the cap to 70.


That same day...

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2004-2.html

------------------------------
September 14, 2004
------------------------------

- Bard PBAoE spells will no longer damage targets that are moving,
however any other spell effects from the PBAoE spell will still be
applied to the targets as usual.

...which was right around the time comments about bards lacking aggro began, as highlighted elsewhere in this thread as well as in the quotes below.


https://web.archive.org/web/20050523080826/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=67436

midiannsz is not online. Last active: 4/20/2005 4:58:42 PM midiannsz
www.hateguild.net
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Total Posts: 45

Re: Top 10 Bard Issues Poll
Posted: Oct 19 04 11:06 AM
Voted:

Ability to Hold Agro (currently Top 10 issue).
Ability to Hold Agro (currently Top 10 issue).
Bards are no longer the kings and queens of running speed.
More type 7/8 instrument augments for placement on armor (currently top 10 issue).
Raise Melee DPS back to 65% of a warrior (current top 10 issue).


Maestro Mideon Milenko *Hate*


https://web.archive.org/web/20050127161016/http://eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=65450#65963

Xonic is not online. Last active: 1/26/2005 3:37:24 PM Xonic
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 124

Re: What songs do you use when you want aggro?
Posted: Oct 6 04 12:34 PM
Short answer is no, we can't out agro any other classes with just songs.

WoS is just annoying atm; it is not easy to determind what named belongs to what camp, and many players don't respect "camps" anyway.

When I run into the situation you mentioned, I throw HoS, snare, mez, slow, AA bellow at the mob and sit between casts. Sometimes I have to melee the mob a little to get solid agro over the other puller. Usually I can out aggro the other puller this way only if they are bards or monks. If your compititors are any other classes than bard/monk, you are pretty much out of luck. One cast of snare, or DoT whatever, the mobs are going to be on them.
Hard decisions: Intel or AMD, nVidia or ATI, Windows or Linux, Neverwinter Nights or Counter-Strike, computer or women.
My Mains:Xonic - 70 Bard, Xinn - 65 Archer, Xonia - 65 Cleric

Mephistoii is not online. Last active: 12/27/2004 9:05:31 PM Mephistoii
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Total Posts: 4

Re: What songs do you use when you want aggro?
Posted: Oct 7 04 2:03 PM
If you are playing in WoS I would suggest you get the timer instead of checking your track list. Bard sucks on getting aggro. Snarer cast 2x snare will over taunted you even you sat down.

Pulled 2 to 3 named every 15min in WoS coz i got my timer right. Plus sometime I pull ZI named to castle wall too.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20001026143518/http://www.eqrealms.com/classes/bard.cfm

14:35:18 Oct 26, 2000

One of the disadvantages of all this song and dance is the attention you'll get from the monsters. They know who is buffing the entire party and causing them grief, so given a chance they will come after the bard first. Luckily bards can wear plate armor, but they will never be able to tank like a warrior type class is able to. A smart bard knows when to play what, and not attract undue attention. A poorly played bard will require a dedicated healer just to keep them alive. Perhaps to offset this uncanny ability to get themselves killed, bards seem to have a pretty forgiving experience penalty for dying.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000615193445/http://www.everhybrid.com/Bard.htm

19:34:45 Jun 15, 2000

Curative Songs
("Let me sing a song about a wound that is soon gone..")

The bard recieves a couple of songs that restores Hp. This might sound bad at first; but later on you'll notice the songs ability increases as you level. Also, eventually you'll acquire a song that regenerates Hp *and* Mana at the same time! The only downside about the song is that it doesn't heal right away, only over time. So it is best suited for after battles. However, if you must use it during battle you'll find it acts as a great taunting mechanism for monsters.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000617092150/http://www.everhybrid.com/bstrats.htm

09:21:50 Jun 17, 2000

Ok, you have the mob snared. This is where the bard comes in. Get within range, and sing a little tune to make the monster's ears bleed. This will grab the mobs attention big time. All bards know how their songs are "supertaunts", and fortunately it pays off in this situation. Keep the damaging song up while staying out of range of the mobs attacks. Rangers, at this point of the battle you should sit back and keep an eye on the mob. If it becomes unsnared, then re-snare it immediately. You don't want the mob to start smacking around your partner's backside. Bards, if snare wears off and it looks like your ranger friend is too busy making a sandwich with his SSoM, then use Selo's to hightail it out of there.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010727213645/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=761

PLAYER STRATEGY - BARD
BARD CLASS STRATEGIES AND TIPS - Javis Bladesong, Mithaniel Marr

...

As you may know bards can wear plate. Nice. It was intended that way because of the taunting power our songs radiate. Never underestimate Armor Class (AC) when you do get hit this will determine how much damage you take.

...

Before we go any further let me say that you most likely will end up being chewed on more than most because of the power of your songs to effect the whole group and the mobs don’t like that one bit. Our songs have massive taunting power so be wary. If you find yourself getting pounded quit playing your songs and stop attacking and let the warriors and other hybrids taunt. DON’T keep attacking and playing a song. In the lower levels Hymn of Restoration is a great group song in battle. The higher you go the more you will notice the mobs do way more damage and that heal song will taunt them like you wont believe so I advise not using it in battle unless you are using the all instrument attack because those songs will taunt anyway might as well heal.

Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000


https://web.archive.org/web/20010727211624/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=2092

PLAYER STRATEGY - BARD
A BARD ON THE PLANE OF HATE! - Wispas O'Tull --Minstrel of the 53rd Song (Assembly of Knowledge), The Tribunal

...

4.) Turn off your songs as the mob is being pulled into camp. Let the mob build a little bit of HATE. This has been fixed quite a bit when verant reduced the hate factor of our songs but its still an issue. Sometimes if your playing a party buffing song on the pull the mob will come straight to you..

Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000


https://web.archive.org/web/20010611000059/http://eqvault.ign.com/guidebook/playerguides/bard/sensibard.shtml

00:00:59 Jun 11, 2001

Player Guide: Sensi Jadeleaf's Guide to Songweaving

Author: Sensi Jadeleaf (sensi-jadeleaf@home.com) Organization: Sensi Jadeleaf's Biography

...

So what do bards do with this broad range of skills? Anything that is needed. If your group is short on tanks, wade in there with the weapons and the heavy taunt songs like Chain. No enchanter? Make crowd control your duty. Snare if you don’t have a druid or ranger around, and do some DoT if you’re caster light. Lots of tanks in the party, make sure you keep those attack speed, strength and stamina songs in there. Change your songs as the combat changes, don’t just stick with the same 3 songs you started with. While your party might not be aware of what you’re doing when you’re there, they’ll sure be aware of you when you’re gone. I try to play the jack of all trades thing up as much as I can, as it’s our strength, both in combat and role-play. I learn as many languages as I can, I try to use blunt, piercing and slashing weapons.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020114075815/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feverquestbards72780songs.showMessage?topicID=4.to pic

Tinvaran
Unregistered User
(6/8/00 8:59:24 am)
Reply Selo's Consonant Chain song
This song has been a staple for me from the first level I got it till now (level 35). Compared to caster's root/snare, it does the following:

[1] Very high taunt, repeated use is almost as good as charm, I have pulled Mobs off wizzies and melee types with it, even when they have done far more damage than I ever could. This of course is a two-sided effect...usually when I stop using it, the melee types can taunt the mob off ME (unlike charm) ;-)

[2] Slows the mob's atk speed by up to 30%, this is often not noticeable in the heat of combat, and I wouldn't vouch for the actual percentage, but it DOES slow them down some. When used in conjunction with an atk speed song like Anthem [group] or Warsong [self], the difference is very noticeable.

[3] Reduces the **vectored** movement of a mob by about 60%. This means that when a mob flees, the movement in the direction of its motion is reduced by this much, that is why when the mob is reduced to about 1/3 of its hp, it virtually comes to a halt if 'chained'.

I have also noticed that this song has recently been 'nerfed' by Verant, and that it often no longer lasts the full 3 ticks that it used to, before Verant introuced the message that tells you when it wears off. Hopefully this is a bug which Verant will fix (when they get around to it). As for the atk speed debuff, it appears that it too has been reduced in order to make the level 50+ songs look more attractive.

Nestasia Dreamsong
Global user
(6/26/00 4:46:31 am)
Reply Selo's consonant chain
Its a SNARE song - Period

It DOES NOT SLOW ATTACKS. And it definetly doesn't slow attacks by 30%.

IF it did slow attacks then twisting it with Largos Binding would be an insane inbalance that would just make us combat commandos.

With Largo's Binding you can SEE it slow the attacker. Heck, use Largos Binding on a gargoyle and its wings flap slower too. But Selo's Constant Chain is strictly snare only.

I have NEVER NEVER taunted anything off a mob aggro'd on a wizard using chain. That is something I would like to see. The only way to get super aggro'd mobs off the casters in your group (if you are a bard) is to use charm. And I do it everytime with great success in the Frontier Mtns on Giants and Burynai alike.

Don't believe all the extra crap about Selo's Constant Chain. Its a *snare* plain and simple.

Nestasia Dreamsong <Dark Shadows>
Bard, 33rd Song
Tunare


https://web.archive.org/web/20001202112800/http://www.attcanada.net/~reaper/winesong.htm

11:28:00 Dec 02, 2000

Tank Bard
Goal: Take Damage
Songs: Selo's Consonant Chain, Psalm of Warmth, Solon's Siren Song
Weapons: Fast, light weight ones, you don't get double attack, your stamina is low. Use fine steel daggers if you must. I use a Bladed Thulian Claw (5/19) and a Dragoon's Dirk (6/23).

You're trying to keep the monster occupied, perhaps because the tanks are heavily injured, or because you know you have enough hps to tank it. The goal is to keep the monsters on top of you. Siren Song is the best choice for taunting, keep Psalm of Warmth running and weapons swinging and you'll be sure to keep taking damage (ick). Of course, until you get Siren Song, Consonant Chain is your best bet. At level 23, 3 singings of this song would pull anything on to me. By level 27 I can't taunt squat with it (which is nice in my opinion).

I used this once, and died for it, but because the healers were able to get enough mana for a heal for our tank while I finished off one of the nasties, 3 out of 4 lived, and a cleric resurrected me. If we weren't in a bad spot in the dungeon, I would have pulled out the horn and used Appalling Screech. As a bard, you have to know when NOT to use a song more than you need to know when to use a song.

I hope this helps all the bards out there,

Cleo Winesong
Minstrel of the Combine
The Rathe Server


https://web.archive.org/web/20001202073000/http://www.attcanada.net/~reaper/nafai1.htm

07:30:00 Dec 02, 2000

The Wood Elf Bard’s Essential Guide to Combat, Levels 1-9

Written by Nafai, Veeshan Server

...

Don’t use CoD when you don’t want everything that you noted in step one to attack you all at once

...

Same situation, but in a group: The monster is pummeling your friend and you haven’t even been hit once—drat! No Taunt! Never fear, CoD normally angers the enemy enough that it will focus on you, which in this case is a good thing.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020220044125/http://eqlizer.net/eq/new/class/bard.shtml

04:41:25 Feb 20, 2002

Another great bard song allows you to charm your opponent. By using this song you will be able to take that impossible to kill pull of three monsters and change it into just two while adding one to your party. This spell can be a lifesaver. Beware however that once charm breaks the monster will hate you like no other.

[mycoolrausch]

Hate scaling with HP is such a bizarre mechanic that could only come from the feverdream that is classic EQ.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010211072743/http://www.din.or.jp/~cai/eq/tips/b_song.html

07:27:43 Feb 11, 2001

Lvl 23
(cp) Selo's Consonant
Chain Target Sing Highkeep
　Decreases movement speed and attack speed. The attack speed is about half, and the movement speed is a little faster than taking damage and running away just before

dying. If you actually use it on a dying enemy, it will stop. It's pretty useful music. If you use it on a rooted enemy, it will be overwritten and will be able to move. If you're

in a party with Caster, you have to be careful. Enemies using SoW have no effect and cannot be slowed. Since the Taunt performance is strong, it can also be used to tear

off enemies.

Lvl 25
(cp) Psalm of
Warmth Party String Qeynos
Kelethin
Erudin
　Increases Regist Cold, but it doesn't matter, it also has Infravision and Damage Shield effects. Damage Shield returned about 6 DMG at level 30. The taunt performance

is also low, and since it is cast on friends, it will not be resisted, so it is not bad to use.

Lvl 53
(cp) Song of Dawn
() Target wind 　
　Lower your Hate. It is the so-called Evade Song. It is good to put it after Charm. Apparently, Resist doesn't work, but I don't know if it worked or not because it's not

displayed. At this level, it hurts to hit, so it might be a good idea to put it in.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000229035216/http://www.everlore.com/boards/EL/Forum15/HTML/000332.html

Author Topic: Grouping with an Enchanter
Shani
Member
Posts: 79
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 02-08-2000 07:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shani Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I am married to an enchanter and I do prefer to group with him. I found it easier to let him mez to take one at a time then to use DDD or COD. So I guess I am now a

tank Bard.
Any suggestions on what songs would be good in a group when always with an enchanter?
------------------
Shani Samsara
Bertoxx
Iridescent Voices

Milos Silvertune
unregistered posted 02-08-2000 09:56 AM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I group a lot with an enchanter. After he does his job and mezzes them all, I pick the toughest one and start tanking on him with weapons while twisting Anthem, Hymn, and Melodic Binding. The Melodic Binding is AoE, but won't break the mez. A Bellow here or there won't hurt either.
If you let the mob get aggro on the Enchanter first, his animation will hop in to tank with you. You'll be able to pull him off the Enchanter quickly enough.
If you want, the Enchanter can cast Quickness on you, and you can then swap Anthem out for something else like a resistance song (especially if fighting casters)...but I usually just tell him to save his mana and I sing Anthem.

You didn't say what level you are though, so maybe some of these songs are available to you. However, theres only a few key things to keep in mind when grouping with an Enchanter. 1.) Their attack speed buffs are better than yours and they don't stack with yours. Pick which one you like best. 2.) Obviously avoid AoE damage songs. 3.) Use /assist to make sure you and any tanks are on the same foe..no sense disrupting the nice mezzes your Enchanter laid.

--------
Milos Silvertune
Traveling Minstrel, Drunkard, and Ladies Man of the 22nd Song.
Tribunal Server

Shani
Member
Posts: 79
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 02-08-2000 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shani Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I am 27 he is 29. I prefer his lvl 29 quickness over my anthem. Yes, I do use bind or chain. Also the psalm line does stack with his buffs. Then I will use jig just keep my stamina bar up. I avoid hymm during battle, because when they all wake up they will all be on me.
The occasional bellow almost feels like a waste for only 13 pts and almost always resists.
------------------
Shani Samsara
Bertoxx
Iridescent Voices

Moshkiae
Member
Posts: 155
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-08-2000 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Moshkiae Click Here to Email Moshkiae Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I'm printing this information. At 17, I tend to try and complete all casters, instead of competing with them. The only thing I have told most casters at this time, is to allow me to handle the HP's. But one good Enchanter will discuss with me what they would like to use ... and we can adapt. Just recently she buff'd us with Quickness and some Armor type, and all I had to do is play strings the whole time ... well waited a minute so they don't come aggro on me. But I did use Chords of Dissonance a couple of times so a Mob will not aggro on the Enchanter, which is important to remember, since they have less HP's than I do, if I remember right. All in all, with the Strings armed I can help an Enchanter stay alive pretty well, and no caster has ever died in any group that I have ever been on in 17 songs. We've lost one tank, a necro (family squabble non group related), and myself 3 times, because I ran wayyyyyy tooooooo late ... but because of that I have been able to save many a member in my group. But if in this span, with such a good group, I have gained two to three bubbles of experience, one death is no big deal.
This is the part of the game that MAKES the difference. If the two casters and Bard discuss things, and study their stuff they should always be in communication, so one does not interrupt the other, and instead augments each other's abilities.

Moshkiae


https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/11860.html

<b>Message ID:</b> 11860 <br/>
<b>Date:</b> Wed Dec 15 19:50:19 GMT 1999 <br/>
<b>Author:</b> Kimes, Dean W. <br/>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Song Taunting. <br/>
<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-1820846033">Speaking of Song taunting, I had an interesting experience last nite. I was<br/>
in North Karana watching for the gnome watchman to spawn when some idiot<br/>
decided an unannounced Hill Giant train into the stone bridge watchtower<br/>
would be a good idea. <br/>
<br/>
There were about a half dozen of us in there, 4 medding' casters a warrior<br/>
healing up, and me sitting and innocently singing Acellerando in the corner.<br/>
In tromps the HG, smashes its prey to the ground just as it reaches the exit<br/>
onto the bridge where it is immediately surrounded by guards. I'm standing<br/>
up at this point. <br/>
<br/>
The HG bashes two of the guards once each as they pummel it, Captain<br/>
Linarius alone is doing over 100 per hit. Everything seemed fine at this<br/>
point...<br/>
<br/>
Then Acellerando pulsed. The HG immediately ran over the 4 guards who had<br/>
at this point done over 600 hp's to it, past 2 of the medding casters and<br/>
the warrior who had just stood up, right to me. He immediately began<br/>
bashing my brains out. His first smack stunned my Accelerando off, so as I<br/>
started to run I tried starting it up again. The HG was happily bashing<br/>
guards again as I reached the exit back into the Karanas.<br/>
<br/>
Then Acellerando pulsed. The HG again immediately ran past the now 5<br/>
guards, past the 2 medding casters that hadn't awakened yet, and right to<br/>
little ole me. Smack, smack and forthwith I was down to a bubble. At this<br/>
point the guards had done nearly 1000 hp's to the HG, a caster had awakened<br/>
and nuked it with a couple of frost spirals and still it ignored all in<br/>
favor of me. Fortunately it didn't stun me again and I was able to outrun<br/>
it while it let the guards and assorted PC's beat the daylights out of it<br/>
from behind.<br/>
<br/>
After it was killed I got not less than 4 tells asking me how I managed to<br/>
taunt the HG so successfully that the group hunting near the bridge was able<br/>
to smack the heck out of it without risk. To my answers of I don't know,<br/>
guess he just hates lite jazz I was assaulted. Three of the /tell'ers<br/>
actually accused me of hiding an exploit that allowed me to taunt the HG.<br/>
Needless to say I politely asked them to /bug it so as to be sure I couldn't<br/>
get away with it again. They were not amused.<br/>
<br/>
I haven't had many examples of 'bard hate' or whatever we want to call it<br/>
lately, but this was sure pretty apparent as a bizarre hate list incident.<br/>
Only thing I can figure is that somehow the code is messed up to the point<br/>
that when a song pulses, the mobs consider it cast on everything within its<br/>
radius, whether it has an effect or not. A similar example happened once to<br/>
me in Misty Thicket. I was singing Accelerando when someone not in my group<br/>
decided to duel someone else also not in my group. I was standing near the<br/>
aggressor and as soon as my song pulsed, the guards uttered that horrid<br/>
statement about 'bards like you'. I fled instantly, but since I knew<br/>
neither I nor my groupmate who wasn't even in the zone, had attacked the<br/>
guards I feel sure some bug occurred. I /bugged it at the time. Has anyone<br/>
else had similar things happen to them when their song radius might have<br/>
included someone but did not actually affect them?<br/>
<br/>
Kitasi</div>


https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/14556.html

<b>Message ID:</b> 14556 <br/>
<b>Date:</b> Mon Feb 7 16:02:44 GMT 2000 <br/>
<b>Author:</b> Papa Legba <br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Song Taunt <br/>
<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-1498667386">Flash of light is a mega taunt, I call it my cleric taunt. I use it all<br/>
the time when i helping out lower lvls and sometimes in my regular when<br/>
I am trying to spread out the damage. (Our warrior does a great job of<br/>
taunting, and between him and our bard, I almost never even get nicked)<br/>
<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt; From: Benjamin Jerrad Segal &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:birdman@...">birdman@...</a>&gt;<br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; A paladin friend scoffs whenever he hears about others who can't taunt<br/>
&gt; mobs, and swears by flash of light as a spell that taunts better than<br/>
&gt; taunt.<br/>
<br/>
</span></blockquote>-- <br/>
We now return to the non-stop rock.<br/>
<br/>
Matt DeBarger</div>


https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/11884.html

<b>Message ID:</b> 11884 <br/>
<b>Date:</b> Wed Dec 15 21:51:15 GMT 1999 <br/>
<b>Author:</b> kim@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx <br/>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Song Taunting. <br/>
<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-2025027895">On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Cranfill, Wendy wrote:<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt;<br/>
&gt; Well, I am going to have to say something in defense of the<br/>
&gt; Shaman here ...<br/>
<br/>
</span></blockquote>I think Harm's example was between obviously wrong requests<br/>
asked of the bard (7 point heal vs. 100+ point damage),<br/>
compared to debatable requests of the shaman. Whether you<br/>
malaise or slowdown first really does depend on the mob,<br/>
amount of mana, party makeup, etc. In general, I tend to<br/>
trust the judgement of the player who's played the class; but<br/>
then, I have a pretty sharp circle of friends that I group<br/>
with. Pickup groups OTOH tend to be frustrating at times.<br/>
<br/>
Btw, has anyone figured out which resist sonic bat stun works<br/>
against?<br/>
<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt; For instance, I have had parties YELL at me for not using<br/>
&gt; Greater Heal right away. What they don't understand is that to do so is<br/>
&gt; almost always a death sentence for ME. And frankly, I'm tired of being the<br/>
&gt; sacrificial lamb. If you're not a healer, you can't understand the power<br/>
&gt; of a heal taunt - Bards can, cuz practically every song is as big of a<br/>
&gt; taunt as heal.<br/>
<br/>
</span></blockquote>Yeah. I have seen an enchanter turn a battle with one memory<br/>
blur. Taunt/damage management is an important part of the<br/>
battle that, sadly, most people neglect. The people who end<br/>
up dying when the taunts go wrong (bards, healers) seem to be<br/>
hyper-sensitive to it, while other classes are often<br/>
completely ignorant of it.<br/>
<br/>
Either playing a different class, or discussing tactics in<br/>
depth with someone who does, can really help you learn the dos<br/>
and don'ts. I've made some dumb-ass suggestions to other<br/>
players based on (IMHO reasonable) assumptions, only to have<br/>
the player tell me that no, that's not the way it works. You<br/>
feel stupid and embarassed for a bit, but you end up the<br/>
better player for it.<br/>
<br/>
--<br/>
John H. Kim<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:kim@...">kim@...</a></div>

[Ennewi]

After the 2003/2004 reduction to song aggro.


https://web.archive.org/web/20050119233102/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=57198#57198

Sububer is not online. Last active: 2/28/2005 11:07:31 AM Sububer
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Total Posts: 13

Bard Aggro
Posted: Aug 17 04 7:05 PM
I am looking for some info on how aggro works for bards.

I'll start by sharing what I know about it:

Chants used to work, then their aggro was nerfed, so they are not nearly enough anymore to be able to kite for a group.

Some say to use rune songs to generate aggro, but I have had zero luck with this. Mobs nearly ignore me when I use our rune songs (Nilipus' and Shield of Songs). Maybe this was pre-aggro nerf too.

I read one post that suggested that bards can't hold aggro even with a Blade of Carnage (+700 hate proc) since they have an aggro mod applied to the class that lessens the hate generated - can anyone confirm this?

What it sounds like to me is that the class may have had a global aggro mod applied, but I am not sure - it could be a combination of misinformation and aggro nerfs to a few songs.

Specifically, what I'd like to know is this:

How was bard aggro nerfed?

Do bards have an aggro multiplier that affects everything?

If so, what is the multiplier?

What methods (if any) are still effective for holding aggro as a bard:
a. when kiting for a group?
b. when tanking?

Cheers,
-Sub
Sububer, 65 bard on Maelin Starpyre http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=997437

Moose is not online. Last active: 1/7/2005 3:18:52 PM Moose
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Total Posts: 345

Re: Bard Aggro
Posted: Aug 24 04 11:07 AM
There was a time back on the old website for diva that I posted about the silent nerf with chants agro. Pre patch I was able to chant 4 dots and really had to be stupid to pull aggro off the pet. Day after patch, the end of charm killing...Nope not realy, but a wasted song slot, as now 4 dots would have the mob tearing you a new one while the pet was no longer a viable tank.

Bards being smarter than Sony went to the songbook and gave the finger to the nerf bat...memed the agro reduce song and with this new wasted slot had things the same as they allways had been. At the time I was angry, now I have to laugh...

Sony tries to flavour of the month fix, and back then it was deemed to powerfull to have songs with low aggro, as to abuse the pet becoming the tank..no risk clearing of places like the Velks Frenzie camp solo.

So we sing an extra song for about 2 years, and Sony decides :hey maybe we got it all wrong and we need to make it like it used to be....Those Bards are trying to use chants to be the tank!! Oh NO!!

Now as it stands we are back to having a hard time keeping aggro, but after clearing sebilis it is clear that my pets tank real nice again, and I sit back and 4 dot with no risk. (was here for the ss helmet, not experience)

What a stupid company...maybe the dude that decided 2 years ago to nerf or songs retirered only to have the next dude implement a nerf that puts things back to the way it used to be. haha nerfed the nerf.

AA's is kind of ridiculous as well, aa to deduce aggro song effects and new aa's to increase aggro effects??? Like buy 1 and not the other , or both and be mad you wasted the aa? The bard class has to be the most screwed with class, but in the end we laugh at them for wrecking the game in attempts to nerf a pretty much un-nerfable class. So we can solo real well...get over it. A bard with 800aa is still just a freaking bard. They charge 100aa for exhaultant bellow knowing this is like charging other classes 25. If it was such a great class there would be thousands of Bards, like those lamer Druids. Class balance is to have what we have, or it would be a very broken game. Give and take here.

Keep up the good work Sony...some day you will understand you are going after the wrong class.


Moose
I get paid to make decisions. Not write about them. 70-701

Grith is not online. Last active: 1/19/2005 6:09:12 PM Grith
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Total Posts: 29

Re: Bard Aggro
Posted: Aug 26 04 3:40 PM
Had to laugh reading Moose's first post: Pre-nerf I only chanted while I wanted to hold aggro, take 3-5% off and keep up a full chant twist, had 2 rogues and a necro go full DPS mode without ever pulling aggro off me. Now, I charm one pet, and start chanting on the pet's target immediately, without ever getting aggro. If charm breaks, re-charm, run 2 circles while chanting, and the pet has aggro again.

Last night, was duoing with another bard... She chanted to 75% while I finished off another mob, then I snared and started to melee while she continued to chant... at 55%, I had aggro and had to use the Fear/snare technique to finish it.

So, Bard melee DPS aggro drastically outweighs chant aggro now.
Grith, Minstrel of Vah Shir Having spent 68 nights serenading from back alleys, while'st dodging 52 AA meetings.


https://web.archive.org/web/20050122092636/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=61421

Miniena is not online. Last active: 1/20/2005 10:21:27 PM Miniena
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Total Posts: 34

Bard Aggro
Posted: Sep 10 04 7:42 PM
hey all i was wondering, in a group situation when the tank goes down.. and all other melee class's go down.. is it possible for a bard to go tank? i can't seem to take or hold aggro at all!
Miniena Member of Heroes Luclin Server

Sirioh is not online. Last active: 11/28/2004 8:26:14 PM Sirioh
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 328

Re: Bard Aggro
Posted: Sep 10 04 10:06 PM
Possible? As possible as it is for a penguin to start flying. It is already halfway there with the wings, but it is going to take a h*ll of a lot of work to breed flight back into them.

Same with the bards. Takes a h*ll of a lot of work to get and keep aggro from anyone, especially on raids when you're talking about tens of thousands of 'points' of aggro simply from heals, let nukes and dots.

If a plan resolves around a bard being main tank, precautions need to be taken - the bard needs appropriate tools (high damage weapons relatively speaking, maybe some aggro procs [and I mean +hate, stuns and other forms of aggro seem to be affected by the global hate modifier bards are subject to], maybe some sort of instant click like a snare gland or stun totem) and everyone else needs to be much more controlled in their aggro output.
Hunter Sirioh
Impresario Arafein Sinofei
Xev

Moose is not online. Last active: 1/7/2005 3:18:52 PM Moose
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Total Posts: 345

Re: Bard Aggro
Posted: Sep 12 04 5:56 PM
We can take the damage np most of the time, but it is real tuff to hold agro. The way it stands, getting a mez to land pre tank death might be the better solution. Or snare and let the wizzys/nukers ping pong it to death.

Moose
I get paid to make decisions. Not write about them. 70-701

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20050119233157/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=46680

barbai is not online. Last active: 1/19/2005 11:01:55 AM barbai
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Total Posts: 1036

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 17 04 2:54 PM
As well you are slightly correct in that soe programed bards to generate less agro with songs this also includeds our procs.

A war using that same blade will generate much more agro from the proc alone then we would.
“Allow my song to heal your wounds, clear your mind, and hasten your blade”

lanolar is not online. Last active: 12/24/2004 10:03:03 AM lanolar
Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 198

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 17 04 3:23 PM
Quote:
As well you are slightly correct in that soe programed bards to generate less agro with songs this also includeds our procs.


Our songs generate less agro, that was done in beta. Procs? Ummm no. Same as everyone else.

I get just as much agro from a BOC as a warrior does. My gf plays a warrior and I have had her and me both melee mobs with nobody tuanting. Agro always bounced back and forth as we procced. I have tanks MANY MANY times in ldon using my BoC to keep agro. I have overagroed many times from my old EoE going off and getting one too many stuns in.

Snasty is correct in that its not what it once was because other class's DPS has gone through the roof, while ours has taken a crap. So you add in the DPS factor and its harder to tell.
Lanolar
Crimson Tempest

https://web.archive.org/web/20040207033628/http://eqvault.ign.com/articles/434/434552p1.html

Lost Dungeons Beta Giveaway!
Win one of ten Lost Dungeons of Norrath beta accounts in this exclusive EQ Vault contest!
August 20, 2003 - We have been lucky enough to get ten exclusive beta accounts for Lost Dungeons of Norrath to give away to you the fans of EQ Vault! If you have an active EQ account (any version) read on for full details on how to win one of the ten beta accounts!
Lost Dungeons of Norrath Beta Giveaway


Requirement:
You must have an active EQ account; any version.

What You Need To Do:
Send your funniest, prettiest, or best EQ screenshot to lepidus@vaultnetwork.com with "LDoN Contest" as your subject.
Include the following info: station name, email address, and first and last name.

Deadline:
Tuesday, August 26th at 11:59PM EST.

When will you know?
Winners will be informed via email on August 27th
The full list will also be posted on the main page of the EverQuest Vault.
I look forward to your participation in this! I cannot accept entries sent to any address save lepidus@vaultnetwork.com, so be sure you send them there and be sure to have the correct info line.

Also, remember you can always talk about Lost Dungeons on our EQ General Board.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20050119233157/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=46680#47516

Steppy is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 8:03:48 PM Steppy
Forum Moderator
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 1682

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 17 04 5:15 PM
The devs have said that they did not code specific effects as bard effects for purposes of hate generation. ALL effects cast by a bard, song, proc, right-click or whatever

have reduced agro simply because of the class we are -- this was the easy way to code it and it is no surprise Sony took that way out. I think this came up about two or

three Fan Faires ago when a dev admitted they took the easy way out on bard agro coding.
Steppy Astravox
Code of Silence
Luclin Server

lanolar is not online. Last active: 12/24/2004 10:03:03 AM lanolar
Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 198

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 17 04 7:01 PM
Hmm I remember the exact opposite at the fan fair. Bard songs have reduced agro. If its not coded to be a song, it has normal agro.
Lanolar
Crimson Tempest

Astuce999 is not online. Last active: 1/12/2005 7:18:42 PM Astuce999
Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Total Posts: 146

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 18 04 5:19 AM

BoC works for bards. It gives 700 hate.

Hooked So`Shar works for bards. It gives 250 hate.

I am not aware of any other weapon with a direct hate proc
that can be weilded by bards.

The confusion with bard code and aggro will not die tomorrow.

There are 2 kinds of hate. Direct and indirect.

Direct hate comes in 2 forms; damage (whether you hurting it
or you healing someone it has aggro on), and procs/discs/etc
that add directly to hate.

Indirect hate is basically everything else that people do during
a fight that mobs will notice. So slows, stuns, snares, mez'es,
charms, fear, debuffs, hastes, buffs, etc.

Bards are coded so that anything that creates indirect hate
will only give a fraction of that indirect hate when it is
associated with a bard.

So my slow is only a fraction of the aggro a shaman slow is.

So my snare is only a fraction of the aggro a druid snare is.

So my mez is only a fraction of the aggro an enchanter mez is.

So my stun is only a fraction of the aggro a paladin stun is.

This includes spells, procs, potions, and items.

When it comes to direct hate, we're on the same code as all
the other classes. The problem comes with the fact that it is
fairly difficult for us to have access to that direct hate. We
do not possess any ability that adds directly to hate without
dealing damage, barring the two aforementioned weapons, and
even then, we can't use those to build hate on a mez'ed mob
so that when it's woken up it won't eat the chanter. Let's
just say that it's not our melee dps that will keep us on top of
the hate list either, nor our healing prowess.

The reason people mention chant dots as a solution to hold
aggro is a bit more subtle than I'm sure most of them realize.
Furthermore, the advantage to clicking in a drum to receive
the full modified effect of the chant in the middle of a melee
swing helps to increase the hate twofold as explained below.

A chant dot has 2 components. One is damage (direct hate),
and the other is a debuff component (indirect hate). So even
though it is not the highest dps in the game, it will outaggro
other people with the same or greater dps because of the
indirect hate from the debuff.

Hope this clears it up for you,

'Stuce
http://www.ichuu.com/Tomonari/pics/Astuceubersig.gif[br]

http://www.ichuu.com/Tomonari/pics/eottag.gif

Steppy is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 8:03:48 PM Steppy
Forum Moderator
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 1682

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 18 04 10:48 AM
Astuce - excellent explanation! That really illustrates things better and I appreciate you taking the time to write it out. So I was correctly remembering the stuff about even procs being coded differently when a bard does it, but the direct vs. indirect hate throws another dimension onto it that makes a lot of sense.
Steppy Astravox
Code of Silence
Luclin Server

lanolar is not online. Last active: 12/24/2004 10:03:03 AM lanolar
Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Total Posts: 198

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 19 04 12:38 AM
Aye thanks for posting that good explanation. I was remembering them saying hate procs work the same for us.
Lanolar
Crimson Tempest


Additional comments that suggest LDoN was the expansion that reduced bard aggro...

https://web.archive.org/web/20050119063253/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=40355

cujomatic is not online. Last active: 1/11/2005 6:13:25 PM cujomatic
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Total Posts: 577

Re: Keeping aggro...
Posted: May 17 04 6:11 PM
You are gonna start that "should bards tank" argument again, I know it.

What level?

As far as I know, the only close to 'snap' aggro grabbers we have are sit and charm. An sit can be iffy, charm is limited or unavailable for some levels. Everything else will

not grab aggro for you from someone that has hard aggro. You need to build aggro over time with a planned twist.

If you have time to build agro through a four or six song twist prior to casters/ melee engaging, then 4 dots, 3 dots plus asnare/slow. Shield of songs will get you aggro, but

usually when you don't want it. It can't reliably grab aggro, in my experience. But its usfull in a slow build as well.

When I two box a bard/cleric...I use chant/slow and ae's if appropriate and charm to build aggro before the cleric heals/nukes/stuns.

This was discussed in some depth 6 months or so ago, but I don't know if the thread survived the move.

Mez and close distance with melee and chant/slow twist will sometimes grab aggro if the old aggro hold moves off really quickly.

Bottom line is most bard songs are coded for low aggro...thats not gonna help you when you want it.

Eladuel is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 1:51:19 PM Eladuel
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Total Posts: 8

Re: Keeping aggro...
Posted: May 18 04 1:36 AM
Bards have a wierd code where the things we do cause agro just at a reduced rate, I figure it was to fix the problems with bards dying to fast when twisting. The problem

with this is it also affects our procs so weopons that proc stun and slow won't be nearly effective if another class were using. Other then using the generic chants, charms,

and sitting which will create a bit of agro not sure if it will be enough to say keep a BoT giant on you when a healer is ch'ing the only other path I know of is to get a

weopon that procs a set ammount of hate like enraging blow aka BoC... so start saving your pennies or find a guild who is still willing to do AoW for a bard LOL

alerka is not online. Last active: 7/20/2004 4:58:10 AM alerka
alerka's Homepage
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 226

Re: Keeping aggro...
Posted: May 20 04 9:28 PM
The "Katta's Song of Sword Dancing" or whatever its called gives you a proc and increases your chances to proc. From what I know procs are one of the biggest aggros.


Returning to the first comment at the top...

https://web.archive.org/web/20050119233157/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=46680#47516

Steppy is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 8:03:48 PM Steppy
Forum Moderator
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 1682

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 17 04 5:15 PM
The devs have said that they did not code specific effects as bard effects for purposes of hate generation. ALL effects cast by a bard, song, proc, right-click or whatever

have reduced agro simply because of the class we are -- this was the easy way to code it and it is no surprise Sony took that way out. I think this came up about two or

three Fan Faires ago when a dev admitted they took the easy way out on bard agro coding.
Steppy Astravox
Code of Silence
Luclin Server


https://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/soe_fan_faire

2004
New Orleans Louisiana, October 27-30, 2004

2003
Chicago Illinois, September 26-28, 2003
Las Vegas Nevada, March 28-30, 2003

2002
San Francisco California, November 8-9, 2002
Boston Massachusetts, August 2-3, 2002
Seattle Washington, April 19-20, 2002
Dallas Texas, January 25-26, 2002

https://web.archive.org/web/20030108234416/http://www.eqluclin.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=85&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Fan Faire discussion (Nov 8-9)
Posted by Bicrius | on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 03:03 PM
EverQuest Event
It's less than one month until the next Fan Faire, which is being held in San Francisco. Find out who's going and discuss plans! The thread is here. Let's continue Luclin's good record for attendance and excessive drinking at the Fan Faires. ^_^

https://web.archive.org/web/20021211024852/http://everquest.station.sony.com/fanfaire/index.jsp

The 2002 EverQuest San Francisco Fan Faire was held on November 8-9 at the Sony Metreon and the San Francisco Marriott. Check out an attendee’s diary with photos, plus a cool movie from this exciting event

No transcripts appear to be available and so far the only video recordings of SOE Fan Faires from around that time were held in Orlando and Vegas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyqJfPqkeVs), the latter of which might have been the one referred to by the poster.

[Dolalin]

That bit about the entire class having reduced aggro across the board is a great find. I totally believe Verant would do that.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010710104532/http://eq.stratics.com/news/arc0-2000.shtml

News Archive: January 2000

Thursday [ January 20 ]

Gordon explains on Bard's getting beat down.
Community News [ 1:35 AM PST ] - Alethal
Found this at the Everquest Gameplay Forum.
Why is that bards are made to be the super taunter of any given group?
I can easily draw many examples from my experience, here are just a few of them:

In any given dungeon, when our puller go get some mobs, they will always target and head for me if I'm singing any song, buffing or offensive.

In PoF, I was instant killed 3 times in a row by Cazic Thule's Touch of Death, simply because the puller is in our group. Three times in a row, and each time I was the second one in group to be instant killed after the puller was killed (he managed to get CT to aggro on him). I was singing mana and heal song miles away at camp.

In dragon raids, the giants always head for the Bards if they are singing any song when the puller returns with some aggro'd mobs. From a technical point of view, in a full group, Bards are actually 'buffing' (or healing) a group of 6 people (self included) with their song, around 10 to 15 times a minute, and all those 'buffing' somehow get add up to the hate list counter on mobs, and that's why bards are always on most mobs' top 3 spot in their hate lists.

However from gameplay point of view, this is not balanced. Bards doesn't have as high AC as tanks, they have half the hitpoints of tanks (even less than Monks and Rogues at times), so the question is, Why make bards the super taunter of all classes?

I'm sure this is not something intended for bards, and I really hope it'll get fixed as soon as possible.

Most of your examples reference that the mob jumps on you when the "Puller" is returning. I can certainly see that happening since the puller has done little-to-no damage to the creature he is pulling. All he knows is that he can't get to the person who he is most mad at, so he might as well eat the person who's buffing the person he is mad at.

But it is balanced. It might not be *fair*, but it's balanced. No other class has the ability to buff an entire party like that. Doing that has to have it's downside, one of which is, you may get eaten. So, you don't have high AC or HP, that's all part of that downside. When you get in a group you have to make sure that they can either kill something so fast it doesn't have a chance to kill you, or you have to be in there with some tanks who can get it off of you.

Sounds reasonble, yes?

-Gordon


Tuesday [ January 25 ]

Bard Taunt To Be Decreased
Community News [ 4:23 PM PST ] - Ruri Kagato
Abashi made another comment regarding Bard Taunt on this thread on the Official EverQuest Forums:
After reviewing this thread as well as some others on the other boards, and chatting with some of our inhouse people that play bards (we have several of those), we've decided to decrease the taunt factor of the bard songs. This is not going to lead to a drastic change to how the bard class is played, as bards need to know when to stop singing, but it should definatly be noticible.

The problem centers around how a creatures hate-list works. Without going into detail, creatures also hate people who cast beneficial spells on people they hate. Since bards do this roughly every 6-12 seconds, it can get a bit dangerous :)

-Gordon

[beaon]

How can we get more traction on this. The aggro nerf really fubard us.

[Ennewi]

https://youtu.be/gqW42BFqVjo?t=1812

"Charm was always going to be powerful. If you're bumping into a group of say three orcs and you can take one of the orcs attacking you, stop him from attacking, and then cause him to attack something else, that is a huge shift in power. And that's why charm was very very limited on who got charm, just straight up. Charm was a very powerful effect and one of the signatures of the enchanter. And that's why it would also break somewhat randomly. And, you know, there were interesting things around how it was designed to try and combat how much you could rely on it and how good it was, and how much monsters would hate you after." - Geoffrey Zatkin

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020116134210/http://pub35.ezboard.com/fthesafehousetrainingstudioqafornewbies.showMessag e?topicID=12238.topic&index=6

nohsup
Registered User
(12/28/01 9:56:35 pm)
Reply Re: Renux Question
I did Renux at 51 about with just my 60 Bard friend. Took a while, but in the end one of his guildies snared Renux with her druid twink. Let the bard agro kite like a long time lol. Grab another melee friend as long as u dont get much agro, and always evade when u can. If she lays a finger on you, say bye bye.


https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=700

EverQuest icon
Sainy's Singing Dagger
LORE ITEM PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: 1H Piercing Atk Delay: 22
DMG: 7 Dmg Bonus: 31
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
Effect: Symphonic Harmony (Combat, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 20
WT: 1.2 Size: MEDIUM
Class: BRD
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 4 (Weapon: General)
Slot 2, Type 20 (Ornamentation)

Oh yes, it works...
Quote
Reply
#Oct 01 2001 at 4:47 PMRating: Default
__DEL__1592250441948
*
70 posts
Fighting in Stonebrunt Mountains is wonderful, especially paired with a druid. ^_^; Only problem is I forgot about this sweet little proc (which saves my butt in groups) annnnnd the snared mobs instantly aggro'd on the druid. What I wanted to say was this: it's an AE effect, strangely. It may say one thing looks peaceful, but when fighting 4 cats, all 4 stuck to the druid the second my dagger went off.

Definately a must to live in groups. Stuff it in your bag and pull out something with a dmg proc if you are going to partner up with a caster / priest class.

Broken
Quote
Reply
#May 27 2001 at 3:23 PMRating: Default
__DEL__1591749964221
*
89 posts
This weapon does not proc anything I don't think. According to spdat, this does

Cast on you: You feel at peace
Spell cast on somebody: Looks peaceful
Unknown: (negative) 100
None/None Wind Instrument Cast Time 3 Seconds

So the proc does nothing so the proc % on the weapon is 0%
▲ Page top
RE: Broken
Quote
Reply
#Sep 16 2001 at 4:25 AMRating: Default
__DEL__1592756879279
*
71 posts
negative 100 means its lowering you on its aggro list by 100.. dunno how to put it into words, buts its negative, as in its lowering something... theres no defined word in the spdat database tfor aggro, so it comes up with unknown


https://web.archive.org/web/20050527103738/http://p201.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallbackstage.showAddReplyScreenFromWeb ?topicID=19697.topic&index=84

khalm
Minstrel
Posts: 135
(8/22/04 2:11 pm)
Reply Re: Master of Disgust
we cant have our cake and eat it too. one of these days SoE is just going to change the way bard songs cause agro and we will be eating death after death because tanks wont be able to taunt a mob off us. then there will be a HUGE uproar from everyone complaining about not being able to pull anymore because the tanks cant taunt a mob off you due to the huge agro you generated from HoS/slow that was used to pull the mob to camp, or because we cast mez on a mob 12 times. mobs are hitting for 1500+ nowadays and they are going to hit a helluva lot harder in OoW. im still sporting my 9k HP buffed the last thing i need is a mob who resisted slow beating me down in 2 rounds because i am OOM from the first 10 mobs i pulled causing me to FM because they did not lose agro on me.

the last thing we need is to be broken in the high end game because a few people wanna tank LDoN content.

we arnt tanks... hence the no taunt button.
Elfise Pressleaf
65 Bard
Veeshan's Fury
Bristlebane

khalm
Minstrel
Posts: 135
(8/23/04 1:26 am)
Reply Re: Master of Disgust
yeah in a perfect world yes but this is Norrath and SoE wont let you have the best of both worlds. your either gonna have low agro or HUGE agro.

i read your post and you need to read it yourself. do you see chanters with a low agro tash and a high agro tash? no you dont and the reason is balance. we are not a tank class we never were a tank class and i have been playing since 99 so yes i remember when the agro was bad and i also remember everyone being pissed off about it .... that why it was fixed so we didnt have high agro caused by pulses of a song, so lets not take a step back to 4 years ago and start increasing bard agro.

get a tank or make a tank if you wanna do a group as a tank ... lord knows there are plenty of classes, Rng, Pal, Shd, Bst, War, Ber all that can and are a tank far better than us. hell even a necro makes a better tank than us with their taps.

we dont need to blur the lines between our class and every other class in EQ anymore than it already is because then more people will cry that we are over powered for another reason. lets fix and enhance our abilities now b4 we start swimming in the neighbors pool.

Elfise Pressleaf
65 Bard
Veeshan's Fury
Bristlebane

[Ennewi]

Symphonic Harmony weapons still bought/sold and wielded during Luclin, suggesting that the aggro-reducing proc was retained its value despite the associated ratios.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020415031539/http://www.berthall.com/profiles/detail.php?id=1110

Chanson Liedersong
Bard

Characteristics
Race Half Elf
Level 58
Server Bertoxxulous
Sex Female
Time Zone Eastern
Diety Erollisi Marr
Played Time
Guild Lost Boys

Equipment
Earring 1 Orc Fang Earring
Earring 2 Orc Fang Earring
Neck
Face Mask of Deception
Head Melodic Helm
Finger 1 Jagged Band
Finger 2 Jagged Band
Wrist 1 Singing Steel Bracer
Wrist 2 Resonant Bracer
Hands Singing Steel Gaunts
Arms Resonant Vambraces
Shoulders Bloodstained Mantle
Chest Lambent Breast Plate
Back Spider Fur Cloak
Waist
Legs Melodic Greaves
Feet Resonant Boots
Weapon Sionache's Partisan
Weapon/Shield Symphonic Sabre
Ranged
Ammo


Last Update March 28, 2002, 7:10 am CST


https://web.archive.org/web/20021105171744/http://www.berthall.com/profiles/detail.php?id=1401

BoldHymn Roaringsong
Bard

Characteristics
Race Vah Shir
Level 43
Server Bertoxxulous
Sex Male
Time Zone Eastern
Diety Agnostic
Played Time
Guild Red Sky

Equipment
Earring 1
Earring 2
Neck Spider Fur Collar
Face Mask of the deceiver
Head Lambent helm
Finger 1 5Dex/7Cha
Finger 2 Overseer's Signet
Wrist 1 Lambent Bracer
Wrist 2 Ry'Gorr Bracer
Hands Singing steel Gauntlets
Arms Lembent
Shoulders
Chest Lambent BP
Back
Waist Sludged Girdle
Legs Lambent
Feet Lambent
Weapon symphonic sabre/ Centi LS
Weapon/Shield Journeymans stick/Sinche's partisian
Ranged
Ammo


Last Update September 16, 2002, 1:02 pm CDT


https://web.archive.org/web/20020208202217/http://pub4.ezboard.com/femarrbazaar.showMessage?index=30&topicID=19327.topic

kingwhip
Veteran
Posts: 45
(1/28/02 12:27:18 pm)
Reply Re: Bags
Ram, did you ever do that trade for the Symphonic Sabre? I would trade one for 2 bags, plus I would throw in 500pp. Sound good?

Wherez


https://web.archive.org/web/20020131150029/http://www.everlore.com/items/items.asp?mode=show&IID=133293

Symphonic Saber [1H Slash] [Report Bad Information]
[Magical Item] [Lore] [Subscribe to this document]

Average Value: [8333.33pp] (See Details) (Submit Price)
Damage: 11 Delay: 23 Ratio: 2.09 Range: - Weight: 4.5
Zone: Chardok Beast: A Chokidai Mangler

A rare weapon found in Kunark
Effect: Symphonic Harmnoy
Adds +10 cha +5 int

Submited by: pimp , from terrew m On: 3/14/2001 4:39:15 PM Rank: worst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 best
if u think this si a good weapon u need to tie ur shoes u are trippin to muc, its a POs garbage crapy ass sword, its a ghetto wanna be CSS, only reason i would use it...if i wasnt using my breath of harmony , is becuase of the proc, an evade, or "tuant off"


https://web.archive.org/web/20010917225405/http://www.everlore.com/items/items.asp?mode=show&IID=233637

Sainy's Singing Dagger [1H Piercing] [Report Bad Information]
[Magical Item] [Lore] [Subscribe to this document]

Average Value: [2000pp] (See Details) (Submit Price)
Damage: 7 Delay: 22 Ratio: 3.14 Range: - Weight: 1.2
Zone: Temple of Droga

Found in the Temple of Draga
Effect: Symphonic Harmony

Submited by: Callron 39 lvl bard On: 2/17/2001 1:00:18 AM Rank: worst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 best
This is great to right people , in a party when it procs takes agroe off bard singing dont mock it till ya try it . Not braggin it works well for my style , I dont have to do super damage in a group, just sing and survive this will help for people with open minds. Cant talk if ya dont walk
and i tried most .Symphonic sabre has same proc and its oober in my opinion ,so this is great for non oober budgets WTG verant outsmarted the smart
mouths but maybe im only one who looks at this in
this way

Submited by: Syc On: 2/2/2001 11:54:20 AM Rank: worst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 best
I bought this weapon cheap, and I must say I love it. It clears you off the hate list of the targeted mob. It really works well if you play songs that piss them off, such as charm or mez songs. One proc and the target switches to someone else (make sure you have tanks in your group). Very helpful. Also weapon procs a lot and I haven't seen one single resist yet.

Mention of songs still generating high aggro as late as mid 2003, before what seems to have been a quiet nerf with LDoN's release in September of 2003 or in the months that followed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20041010050905/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=11706

few notes on bard aggro Reply...
Posted @ Fri, Jun 20th 12:34 AM 2003
By: buvasthebard
4 posts
Score: Decent [3.00]
As a 57 bard, I can say that while we will never be #1 in either aggro or dps, we are up there. Yes, our melee dps sucks due to lack of dual wield. Yes, because of this our melee aggro sucks. However, as I found out tanking around the castle in PoD (now there was a challenge for a guy with <1k ac and 2.2k hp), we can generate hella aggro with the right songs, and these same songs put me over 100 dps, which is ungodly for a bard if he wants to live in most groups :P. If I was slowing and bardnuking I could hold aggro pretty well. I wasnt the best tank, but we didnt wipe ever and I held aggro for most of the fights.

[FatMice]

Thanks again Ennewi for finding all of this seemingly conclusive evidence that bard agro was one of the classes strong suites from classic to velious. my hope is that the nerd gets adjusted. pras

[Ennewi]

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/25522.html

Message ID: 25522
Date: Thu Oct 25 16:41:44 BST 2001
Author: Daniel Sniderman
Subject: From my Guild's board Forum


Actually Slyde, I spoke to Lawrence Poe at the Fan Faire and his reason for
not having any of the new bard songs or 'disciplines' in the SPDAT and
related files was something along the lines of,

"Bard songs are harder to code and generally take alot more internal
balancing before they are released to test. I wish I had something to put in
the SPDAT so you gyuys could look at it, but right now I don't. Sorry."

Actually, that's VERY close to what he said in regards t new bard
songs/disciplines. He's a super nice guy. Bit soft spoken though.

Additionally, I spoke with him about the problems with Selos and Drums of
the Beast. Oddly enough, he was unaware of the wrap-around problem with our
speed and wrote it down.

Overall, great guy. He took alot of notes too.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020210231202/http://www.mobhunter.com/article.jsp?articleid=685705173

02/05/2002 05:20 PM CST
Quoth the Caster, "Nevermore!"
The Verant employee who impressed us the most at the Minneapolis FanFaire was, without question, Lawrence Poe. This guy was cool, smart, and obviously knew his job incredibly well. He could rattle off spell facts and answer player questions like it was second nature to him. He has been a great asset to caster classes in EverQuest.

The problem is, he's not EverQuest's spell guru anymore.

No, he hasn't left Verant. But according to Graffe's Wizard Compilation, he has moved on to another project:

It turns out that he will still be working for Verant on an unannounced project doing gameplay systems and mechanics. He seems to be really happy and excited. (before the e-mails start: yes, I asked him about the unannounced project and he didn't share any info.)


https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawrencepoe

Lawrence Poe

...

Game Designer
Sony Online Entertainment
2000 - 2003


Which explains the eventual decision to...

https://web.archive.org/web/20050119233157/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=46680#47516

Steppy is not online. Last active: 1/18/2005 8:03:48 PM Steppy
Forum Moderator
Joined: 02 Sep 2002
Total Posts: 1682

Re: BoC.....-does- it work for us?
Posted: Jun 17 04 5:15 PM
The devs have said that they did not code specific effects as bard effects for purposes of hate generation. ALL effects cast by a bard, song, proc, right-click or whatever

have reduced agro simply because of the class we are -- this was the easy way to code it and it is no surprise Sony took that way out. I think this came up about two or

three Fan Faires ago when a dev admitted they took the easy way out on bard agro coding.
Steppy Astravox
Code of Silence
Luclin Server

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20030927001954/http://pub40.ezboard.com/fthesaryrntavernclassdiscussion.showMessage?topicI D=108.topic

Yurtrus Dywrnach
Registered User
Posts: 310
(4/11/01 1:38 am)
Reply Re: Bard equip question...
Why do you want a proc? Hell my bard gets enough agro just singing and whacking the mob at 20th lvl.

if you really feel the need for a proc might I suggest a pair of Obsidian shards? 6/23 with a 30 point proc which begins at 18th level I believe. Shards are rare but go for 250-300pp and can be camped by a group of people in there 20's good exp in sola.

Yurt

HadrienLNS
Registered User
Posts: 8
(4/23/01 8:48 pm)
Reply Ouch, Proc BAD! <sweeping arm motion>
I swore off procing weapons as a bard a LONG time ago. It's like adding a new garish color to your already luminous "Beat the Hell out of ME" sign. You are gonna find that monsters like you enough as is. If yer weapon is gonna proc something, make it a DoT or a buff. PGTs are pretty cool, since your Dex is likely to be high and your hitpoints low. 300dmg absorption at your level rocks. I've almost thought about buying one myself sometimes.

Bards don't hit things very well. Too many bards don't realize this. I honestly can't imagine why so many bards insist on it. If you played a Cleric, you'd have a big ass mace, but how many of them do you see bashing heads in? Remember, just because you CAN use something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. Instead of blowing 5K on a Sionachies Partisan(or whatever), save up and buy some better armor, or a magical instrument.

It actually amazes me that Bard weapons still sell for as much as they do. I guess they all go to twinkers who will shelve their bards in 2 months (so THAT'S where all the SS BPs are, lol).


https://web.archive.org/web/20020826042008/http://pub35.ezboard.com/fthesafehouseloungegeneraldiscussion.showMessageRa nge?topicID=24490.topic&start=41&stop=60

Aaoogaa
Registered User
(7/29/02 5:19:30 pm)
Reply Re: RE:
I have grouped with bards and I have never seen a better class when played correctly. Karnors WL room. 58 level bard was main tank, crowd control, healer, and puller. It was almost comical at the ease the bard had control of the room.

I have seen bards kiting 20 mobs effectivly.

Everyone wants a bard in an AE group. If ya don't your sorta silly.

Its true you only need one or two bards on a raid, but then how many shamen do you need on a raid?

I have played a bard and enjoyed my time as one but the class is just not for me. I know many bards out there that LOVE their class and its abilities. To many people play bards bad or without combining their abilities (this includes me :) ). I think I have only met 2 people that actually play the class to its full potential.
Officer Synergy Collective 53rd Circle Reaver Click to see me stuff!

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20001109205400/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/023416.html

Grimstaff
Station Member posted 10-15-2000 06:09 PM
I hate bumps, if you can't think of anything significant to move the dialog along, then that thread is better off dying and being buried in the mass of other messages.
That said, I really do wish Verant would take a good look WITH AN ACTUAL BARD CHARACTER at how incredibly poorly lullaby works. Not past level 30, but when you get it and immediately after. This thing isn't so much resisted then, although it usually won't work on some of the targets, it just holds so poorly that you will end up with 25-30% of the monsters at random beating on you. The worst part is that its not usually the same guy, its a mix of them, first is joe, than bob, then al, then bob again, then joe.... good luck for the poor tanks to taunt off you then.


https://web.archive.org/web/20021213225654/http://www.everlore.com/races_classes/classes.asp?CID=6&mode=details&vType=classes&pg=1&sortby=4

Submited by: Druxinor On: 8/22/2001 10:54:17 PM Rank: worst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 best
I play a lev 21 bard.
do bards suck?
only if an idiot is playing one..
and im not an idiot.
I recently dueled a friend of mine(to the death) three times... I was a lev 21 bard and he was a lev 20 warior... I beat him 2 of the 3 times...
I went toe to toe with a war and won...

bards dont suck.... ignorant fools suck...

Bards arent easy to play well...
but they are in the top 5 classes when they are.
Want to take the easy path? Be a mindless tank...
type /a and just sit back... Frankly, I prefer being able to heal myself and others, restore peoples mana, and give a 15% to 20% haste to the group... I've saved countless friend's lives by taking the atention of the mob away from an ally (bleeding to death) throw on my healing song... (extra taunt factor) and keep him from having a corpse run. does this allways work? no. are they gratefull when it works? yes.
for those of you that still dont understand...
were not ment to be the tank, healer, buff person, or the enchanter... though if the tank needs to pull back for a little bit to heal, we can take his place. Cleric got killed and everybody has low hp during downtime? throw on hymn of restoration, and watch the group be ready for battle in notime. tanks want alittle extra oomph in their swings? throw on anthem de arms.
chanter's mez break and he's oom? we can handle that too...
a bard is a jack of all trades, master of none.
dont expect us to tank as well as a lev 60 war or heal like a 60 cleric... we can't... we fill in the gaps in the group.
so stop ragging on bards....
we could ragg the same or worse on wariors, pally's, sk's, etc

so please shut your mouth berore you put your OTHER foot in tour mouth too.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010222184133/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000665-4.html

Digory
Station Member posted 02-20-2001 06:51 AM
I'm tired of the people who want bards to be and enchanter/warrior. That sounds boring to me. I like the tremendous flexibility I have as a bard. I get to adjust to both group classes and skills.
I heard Absor say defense would be improved. I don't particularly need much better melee skills. There is always someone to dish the damage, but bards take damage like little kids. Bards playing instruments or meleeing could use some defensive enhancements. Start dodge and parry earlier and give them much higher caps. It's not that hard to parry with an instrument. I have been a fencer and you'd be surprised how simple a weapon can be used to block any kind of blow. And many of our songs are major taunts.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010222185916/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000665-3.html

SIRANUI-ToD
Station Member posted 02-19-2001 02:11 AM

I'm sorry, Absor; I do not find this a very good list for the following reasons. Are these the only issues to be addressed? What I'd like to see is a few comments about where you (VI) see the bard in your game and what you see as reasonable and not; a background for the bard class if you will. This will help steer us - at the moment we are a jack-of-all trades class and in many ways don't know what to comment on, except for existing bugs. Can we please have feedback on status items NOT on your list, and reasons for non-implimentation; that would make me a lot happier.
Predominatly, you're dealing with existing bugs, rather than sailing 'fresh' waters. Yes, we all would love bug fixes, but we'd also like enhances in line with other classes and the use of a little imagination on the development team's behalf, rather than just fixing existing code. You seem to be taking the path of least resistance. Fixing what was broken is not balancing.

Again, a few points that spring to mind:

1) Give us an icon for mana song. This will save us getting told 'play mana' at least once an hour and would be an across-the-board benifit.

2) Increase in defense cap makes no sense and seems to be a simple 'keep-em-happy' enhancement route to take. post 50 (when extra defence raises kick in), we do not have the need for it (we are non-taunters and do not tend to get hit much unless we're on CC). From a RP point of view, why should an entertainer have the same defense as a knight or highly trained warrior? Jumping back to thread 5, yes defence is hard to raise, but it does happen eventually, as higher XP demands give greater oppertunity at increase per level. Aggro list manipulation is a good way to get increases. Ask for mobs to be rooted - then either manipulate aggro to get hit (heck, I can taunt off a 59th ranger in this situation, much to his chargrin), or simply ask tanks to not taunt. I would rather be enhanced in another direction that makes sense.

3) A small (5%) haste song that stacks and does not require an instrument. This will make a bard more worth having in a group with a chanter or shammy or as part of a riad featuring an enchater epic. The current instrument required song is useless - that 5 or 10% increase for the others means that the mob isn't taking bard melee damage (pitiful, I know - but it is probably at least 5% of group output) and takes up a twist slot that could be used for something useful.

4) Faction. specifically that entertainers were traditionally viewed as 'neutral' and could be welcomed in any land. ie improved starting faction, improved faction song or modification to positive faction enhancements. I made a lengthly string of comments on this. Any chance of a little feedback? I think I was the only person to offer a point of view on this topic as it is not 'combat' orientated, but rather a utility issue. It makes sense, it fits with the class (I can think of nothing more fitting in fact) and is not unbalancing.

5) Something, anything for us melee-wise. As is, if the group has a 'chanter, or indeed often just a root-parker then at higher levels we are usually less wanted than any other melee, hybrid, or indeed pet class. On multi-group ops, every buff and debuff is handled by speciality classes (even if not in the same group), leaving healing and damage dealing as the main in-group activity. A little more ability inside groups at these levels would be nice and a small melee tweak would be an easy path. Pallies and SKs are defensive, rangers offensive and we really should be middle ground. Our damage output is very low. Although we have duel weild, we lack the double attack of others. SKs and Pallies both have the option of 2-handers (we do not, neither should we) to offset some of this problem. More to the point, SKs and pallies both get OBSCENE one-handers that any tank would kill for to offset their non-duel weild advantage. So we are offensivly the weakest melee, hybrid or pet class.
Defensivly (and we're talking tank-ability here), we lack a taunt key and the damage ability to attract a mob's attention (except lower levels where song taunt gives us aggro), making us undesired even defensivly.
A duel weild capped at 50, a slight offense increase, backstab capped at 50 or a high level 'bellow' would cheer us up no end.

Siranui
ToD
Torv
Forteymj@hotmail.com


https://web.archive.org/web/20010222183404/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000665-5.html

Starling_Bane
Station Member posted 02-22-2001 06:45 AM
Ignore the trolling. Any bards who are as disgusted as I am with the bard issues (or lack of) addressed by the latest patch, please post your discontent. Reasoned arguement is obviously ignored, all we have left is complaint. Better still, vote with your feet & quit!
*Maybe* some of the bard problems raised will be addressed in a future patch, but, once again, the bards are left to last (probably to be overlooked yet again).

1) Increased defense cap.
Great for the lower level bards who have such a high aggro. Congratulations on this benefit, I don't begrudge you. From the point of view of a level 55 bard though, it's useless. I find it impossible to even generate any aggro at this level - I wish I could.

2) Level 20 bard song.
Time for politeness is at at an end. This is a bloody stupid move! OK, it's an easter egg for bards in their 20's (who don't really need it), but at the cost of upsetting the already-favoured enchanters even more. Next thing we will see is the level 20 mana song being nerfed or an enchanter spell introduced that makes it redundant. I suspect that this this was actually a move to reduce the number of bards soloing at this level, enticing them back into groups.

3) Denon's Desparate Dirge
Well, what can I say? The problem ISN'T the amount of damage, it's the fact that most bards can only sing it once per full mana bar, giving it a ridiculous re-cast time as the bard med skill is capped at *one*. It's redundant, it's useless.

This patch is truly pathetic for bards, given the improvements introduced for other classes. It's an insult.

Finally, those of you who don't like the post, troll all you like. I won't be visiting this board again. Playing text-only muds is more fun than playing the redundant EQ Troubador.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000520071631/http://eq.castersrealm.com/forums/Forum9/HTML/000831.html

Midi
unregistered posted 03-01-2000 12:17 PM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Usualy the ones I group with play manasong (stacks with ours) non-stop. Other useful songs will be healing post fight to help the healers, or a restance song of the appropriate type, the DD bellow, or charm release something for taunt(you know how well that works =).
An exmaple from last, on sol b bats cave:
me (49, then 48, then 49 enc)
45 bard
44 clr
45 war

45 pal later a 45 rog
41 nec later a 43 dru

Basically our speed spell is way faster the the bard song so I was casting STLW. Even clerity is better too I believe. With the mana song you get back the huge mana to cast this 2x. On bard I cast augment. Becuase of the incredible speed bonus of STLW and the near constant fighting, sometimes the bard would sing some kind of +sta song or the cleric or druid castd their energy song.

Esentially the bard was giving us every drop of mana he could. For 2-3 hours we were pulling bats and lava beetles almost non-stop after the break in. With clarity and the manasong we had enough mana to keep up with these pulls. The poor cleric was overworked having med for every last drop of mana for heas he could get. We got 2 bubbles of exp in those 2-3 hours. It was the best exp rate gain I have had in several levels, and it was all due to the massive non-stop pulls. Without clarity and manasong there was no way we got have managed that.

Other good uses would be KK for air. God type raid for twistong resistance songs and limited the damage done to you.

Bards and enchanters can work very well together.


https://web.archive.org/web/20041129204238/http://p201.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallbackstage.showMessage?topicID=19747 .topic

Liquidated
Grumpy Moderator
Posts: 3625
(9/4/04 9:46 am)
Reply oh man
All I can say is the "vision" went to level 42 and stopped.... dead cold stopped. From skill ups to basic game play crap like even our songs going to 42... and then stopping.

Bards were missing basic abilities (lull and mez - remember the tree snake in qeynos?) and had issues with aggro unheard of. Bard gets aggro bard dies but well the closest place to bind in cazic thule was freeport and zoning on a more than minimum spec pc over a modem took 2+ mins. hey want a drum? well that's in north freeport... Good thing uber classes like necros and druids could bind ANYWHERE.

When kunark came out, entire classes changed roles.

Rangers became effective bards with no songs.... ok dps but insane aggro and no tankablility. A ranger NEEDED a cleric in group or nearby as the ranger was going to die over and over.

Tamsin Dyresoul
Minstrel
Posts: 215
(9/4/04 8:01 pm)
Reply Re: oh man
I'd have to go with Kareo here. I think even grumpy Liq would acknowledge the fun and exploration levels were so high back around Kunark era that we tended to overlook some of the nastier aspects such as binding issues, bard aggro(which was fixed later), and equipment issues (I'll summon some food and water now from my britches;b).

I mean, LGuk used to be like a friday night club where we all met up with friends and aquaintences to hang out.

When Kunark went live, I was on my necro. My namesake here on EZboard. I dropped my bard around level 23 late 1999, early 2000. To be blunt, I just couldn't figure out how to play him since the aggro issues were so bad and I had read twisting guides on the old websites. So I went Erudite necro and spent weeks in Tox forest. No Paineel, no real bank unless you wanted to risk death in Erudin, etc.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20041212132949/http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=bardbalance&message.id=3383

EverQuest Live : Class Boards : The Bards Lounge : Bard Definition Discussion : What happened to the Dot Agro post?

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post?
Options
Archimede999
Journeyman
Posts: 29
Registered: 07-14-2004

Viewed 268 times
2 ratings - 1.0 average


The post was in August, I think the 22nd, and it was regarding the stealth nerf of the july 14th patch.


Tremelo quickly stickied it, then took about 2 months to get a "I've e-mailed a dev about this".
Then about a month later we got news (if you can call it that) that the dev answered that he didn't
know anything about this, and that we would be kept updated. Then Tremelo quit as community rep, and
the post quickly vanished.

The dot aggro is still pretty much as bad as it was, the only difference is that with the new dots you feel
it less since it's more damage.

What happened is pretty simple. They took dot aggro away so that they could give us new AA's that we could
use to increase our aggro back to its original level. Unfortunately, as the nerf kicked in, we found out
about the new AA's on test, and cried foul. So to cover their tracks, Sony quickly deleted the new bard
aggro AA's and has been denying knowledge of the nerf since. The end.

'Stuce
12-07-2004 08:41 PM

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post?
Options
Jarsh92
Journeyman
Posts: 91
Registered: 09-14-2004

Server: The Tribunal
Viewed 248 times


I don't understand why Sony would do that? As the game developers they do have every right to lower the aggro on songs and gives us a way to get it back. Yeah that pretty much stinks, but at least we would have a way to get it back, which now we don't. I love it how they say we are the most powerful class, yet we always have 10 issues on our list and I have noticed some other classes are having trouble keeping 10 issues on thier lists. Yes I know we are powerful, but I don't think we are anywhere close to being the most powerful class. We will just keep doing what bards do best, adapt. Thats where our "real" power is.
12-09-2004 06:14 AM

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post?
Options
Meresya
Journeyman
Posts: 101
Registered: 05-20-2004

Viewed 217 times


For the most part I think the coding for bards is still pretty much spaghetti code, so SOE only enters into it when absolute necessary. Five months to just get a response regard missed notes. Close to the same on the dot agro nerf. No alteration of the AoE nerf (mobs trying to move TO the bard), and a host of others. Epic fixes were quests, not bard coding. The only thing to date for that time is auto twisting, which was done by a programmer, so the code is fresh, not meshed with hundreds and thousands of lines coded by only SOE knows hou many different people. I think it takes them months to sift thru the coding on any one aspect, with testing and whatnot. Only possible valid reason for no list item completion on anything code related. And melee issues won't be looked at to alter the imbalance of PoP's balancing because it can just be addressed in total later.

Just look at posting counts per day now. Compare it to when the board opened. Posting went from multiple times a day for people, down to probably once a week or bi-weekly. Bards discussed, argued, cursed out SOE, in a nutshell pretty much the whole gambit. Now we post when moved to, not for SOE but for other bards. Just like the preverbial horse, let it get its own bloody water. We've stop wasting our time trying to lead it.

Polara
12-10-2004 12:10 PM

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post?
Options
Grumbuk-Dev
EQ Programmer
Posts: 161
Registered: 03-04-2004

Server: Test
Viewed 234 times


I was the person who said I'd follow up on the DoT agro/hate (and coded /melody, fwiw). We had to change the way PBAE DoT's worked a while ago to prevent exploits, and one unfortunate side effect of the change was that hate generation from DoT's was affected. Basically, damage is a key source of how much NPCs will hate a player, and without the damage being applied, less hate is created. We tried a few things, but were met with various problems and then more pressing issues came up and this was left behind. I'll try to get some progress on this one soon.

Regards,
---------------------------

Eric Cosky - "Grumbuk"

Assistant Lead Programmer, EverQuest

Sony Online Entertainment
12-10-2004 11:23 PM

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post?
Options
weekly_ab_downage
Journeyman
Posts: 83
Registered: 06-21-2004

Viewed 197 times


Somehow being promised progress on an issue thats over 4 months old doesnt fill me with enthusiasm or hope. Saying you had to nerf AE kiting because of an exploit is true, but only because you failed to fix the source of the exploit being macroing.
12-11-2004 02:45 AM

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post? [ Edited ]
Options
Grumbuk-Dev
EQ Programmer
Posts: 161
Registered: 03-04-2004

Server: Test
Viewed 172 times


I'll try to answer what I can.

weekly_ab_downage, the issue about chant agro was something in the top 10 list. This doesn't mean anything will be changed because it's in the top 10 list. Being in the top 10 list means that it's the top 10 things players want to see done. We do our best to change the game so that these items happen, because we want players to be happy with the game, but being in the list that players provide us isn't a promise it will be implemented.
That said, I don't know what changed - if anything - related to chant kiting agro, but I can say that the changes that went in related to AA's should not have affected it. The only thing I can think of that might be a plausible explanation for code changes at that time affecting chant agro is perhaps the migration of AA's to a new system actually fixed a bug with Spell Casting Subtlety. It's not out of the question that it was bugged before, and perhaps isn't now. I can't think of anything else that might affect chant agro because as far as I know nobody made any changes directly to that song.

Thiberg, thanks for the clarification about it being more specific to chants. I think it's still a good idea to revisit the PBAE DoTs in order to give them the same amount of agro when the damage element is ignore due to movement, but that is a different issue as you point out.

Meresya, unfortunately there is a misunderstanding with what the top 10 lists are for. You describe the items in the top 10 as pending "fixes" when in fact they are things players would like changed because they think it would improve the game. They are in fact almost always feature requests with only an occasional legitimite bug. The designers may or may not agree with the changes, and when they don't, they aren't going to happen. That doesn't mean it's broken, it just means it's not what you think is how it should be. In my post above where I said "hate generation from DoT's was affected" I meant specifically, PBAE DoTs. This is because when the damage element is bypasses due to the PBAE changes, no damage related hate is generated for the PBAE dot. The change had no effect on any other song or spell, it was a very isolated and specific change. That is why I think it may be possible to identify how much hate would have been generated at that time and apply it to the hatelist - but it may not be as simple as that so I won't make any promises.
As for altering the PBAoE nerf, we spent as much time on it as we could trying to minimize the side effects of the change and unfortunately I doubt it will be changed much at this point. Anything is possible I suppose but using your example, for instance, of enabling damage if the NPC is moving away from the bard then the main problem we were trying to avoid (engaging and killing an unlimited number of NPCs with no mana cost) would again be possible. You'd just need to bring two bards (we definitely considered this possibility).
We are in a bind here because if we want the game to be rubber-band lag free with respect to player movement, then the player is going to continue to be able to do these kinds of exploits as long as the game mechanics allow for it to happen. This is because cheaters will use macros to move to exact positions at exact times and take advantage of this. Would I like to stop macro users? Absolutely, and we've spent literally hundreds of man-hours fixing exploits and have banned many, many accounts this past year alone. It's very important to us that the game is played fairly. Can we stop everything? No, and that's just a fact. But we do as much as we can and will continue to invest developer time making game systems more secure, less prone to abuse, and more robust in terms of identifying various ways people are cheating.
When the client is on someone's physical machine, we simply have to accept that people can and do have the ability to mess with the memory and generally do whatever they want with it. There is nothing we can do to prevent that. Even if we could scan and find cheater tools on a player's machine, it would just become a game of cat and mouse as hackers hid the tools from us in ways we wouldn't possibly be able to identify. It would be a pointless exercise. The solution here is to move as much as we can that matters onto the servers where the server is the authority for what happens, and provide as little information to the client as is neccessary to play the game so that snooping at memory is as useful as looking at your screen (This isn't news for anyone who is familiar with computer security issues). The server is already the authority for almost everything that matters in EverQuest except for movement, because moving movement authority to the server would require the introduction of an intolerable amount of lag & latency (there are a few other things too, to be clear, such as NPC info that is used for tracking). Some games have tried server-authority movement in the past and have almost universally changed to use the same client-side authority for movement because it's just not worth ruining everyone's experience just so that a few hackers can't warp around. There is still room for improvement though, and just this past week I was in a meeting discussing our options so it isn't something that is being ignored.
Stacking issues for the bard songs in raids seems like a worthwhile subject to explore. I know there are similar issues with enchanter mezzes stacking, but these are topics best suited for designers.


Regards,

(edit- minor typo)
Message Edited by Grumbuk-Dev on 12-11-2004 09:27 AM

---------------------------

Eric Cosky - "Grumbuk"

Assistant Lead Programmer, EverQuest

Sony Online Entertainment
12-11-2004 09:25 AM

Re: What happened to the Dot Agro post?
Options
Archimede999
Journeyman
Posts: 29
Registered: 07-14-2004

Viewed 139 times
2 ratings - 3.0 average


First of all it's not 1 song. There's about 14 chants now, and for all of them the same behavior is found. Pre
July 14th, bards get enough aggro from 2 chants and assonance so that a shammy casting slow won't get aggro. Post July 14th patch, Bard needs to have 3 dots + assonance for at least 2 ticks before shammy slows, or mob
bee lines for shammy.

Secondly, pre-july 14th patch we don't know of any new AA's Omens will bring us. Post-july 14th patch a new AA
appears on test, 3 ranks of aggro increase for bards. Bards quickly put 2 and 2 together, and realize we lost
all our dot aggro so that we could purchase it back in Omens. We were very upset. Less than a week later the
aggro-generating AA's vanish from test. We never hear from them again.

A lot of work has already been done for you. All you have to do is look at the code changes for the July 14th
patch, anything that relates to bards. It's hardly looking for a needle in a haystack. How about this, I'll
even do more work for you.

At the beginning of july, one of the most active threads on bard boards was how a bard is supposed to hold aggro. A lot of bards didn't know it was possible, so it was explained exactly how and why it was possible. One of the main arguments was the fact that a chant from a bard is 2 types of aggro, there's the direct aggro generated by the amount of damage dealt by the DoT, and there's indirect aggro generated by the debuff component of the DoT.

I have a strong feeling that the July 14th patch stealth nerf, basically killed any aggro generated by the
debuff component of a chant dot.

So all the work is done, all you need to do is go look at that code, and fix it!

'Stuce
12-11-2004 11:00 AM

[Ennewi]

Bards were initially a chain-armor class until some point late in beta when it became apparent that aggro would remain an issue, necessitating access to platemail.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040828202811/http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=bardbalance&message.id=773&view=by_date_ascending&page=3

Reply

Re: Bard's taunting
Options
kinuvann
Apprentice
Posts: 10
Registered: 05-15-2004

Viewed 233 times


Well since they nerfed chant aggro we kind of need a way to taunt and hold aggro yes.

One thing tho, I see in this thread people keeping putting the fact we are a plate class foward:

During beta bards were a chain class but since songs had the same aggro than regular spells ( and we cast many more spells than casters) they switched us to plate to handle the beat down. Ironically it wasn't enough and after many bards bitched about getting owned in plane of fear/hate they added the bard aggro code which reduced all our songs to something like 1 point of aggro per cast ( including proc and discluding a few songs like runes/chant that bypass the code).


07-26-2004 11:26 AM


https://web.archive.org/web/20040222174442/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4431

hahahahahhahha Reply...
Posted @ Wed, Nov 19th 1:02 PM 2003
By: stephanavich
9 posts
Score: Default [1.55]
did the tizmaks meat in under an hour. they drop velium, so it's not all bad. went to bloodmaw, handed him the 4 meats, he despawned, but i didn't know he was supposed to despawn, so i freaked. i check the quest, doh, you just say "can i have the map please" (something like that) to the gnome, boom. easiest part to get.

i run to iceclad to scope out where stormfeather spawns. i sit there for 45 minutes, and bamn, he spawns directly on my head. that's luck. on the way to the dire wolves, a shaman is taking out lodi, i throw in some stabs, boom, i have that piece.

then to the dire wolves. i had a friendly guild bard agro as many as he could, then i would hydra my wizard and aoe them to death. after about 20 minutes, give or take, stalker spawns, i have that peice.

i get the book from the lost pirate (down on the shore, a stones throw from stormfeather spawn), combine. give it back to him, he hands me back other thing. at this point, a rabid cougar spawns. he was slightly harder than regular ones, but not a real challenge, he does aggro right away and only dropped a mq cougar pelt. give to captain nalot (he's in the igloos on the same island), and boom shakalaka, i have my mask.

as far as i can tell, it DOES not stack with other speed spells, but i haven't tested it with bard songs. this comboed with my ragebringer, i have constant 60% haste. i believe that is the fastest anyone has finished this quest. go me.

*point and laugh*

gimbley
52 rogue
saryn

Edited, Wed Nov 19 13:06:00 2003


https://web.archive.org/web/20020201031736/http://pub44.ezboard.com/feverquestersofnorrathfrm23.showMessage?topicID=47 .topic

Warnin Wraithlore
Administrator
Posts: 147
(2/4/01 3:08:00 am)

LOL!
Came across this on someones sig on the message board. Thought the bards may get a kick out of it:

Description of a bard...."taunting-without-meaning-to, running-faster-then-anyone-has-a-right-to, 3 second-mezzing, charming-a-lizard-and-confusing-the-piss-out-of-the-poor-sk [WHICH damn sentinel did you charm?!?!?!?], lag-inducing, kickass-resistance-songs-till-they-aggro-the-dragon-and-die, sparkling songsters and lastly the ability to summon water out ouf your boots and food out of your pants."

[Ennewi]

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/newsgroups/alt.games.everquest-msg-125386.txt

From 4279308006490582567
X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit
X-Google-Thread: fb739,78636efa0adfb1bc
X-Google-Attributes: gidfb739,public
X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-06-21 03:54:15 PST
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.sta nford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!not-for-mail
From: "Eritaana" <eritaanaNoSpamPlease@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.games.everquest
References: <3D12ACE2.254EF5BB@dejazzd.com>
Subject: Re: Bards ditching aggro
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:53:43 +0100
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.84.160.230
Message-ID: <3d13065e$1@news.mhogaming.com>
X-Original-Trace: 21 Jun 2002 04:56:30 -0600, 80.84.160.230
X-COMPLAINTS: Report abuse to abuse@mhogaming.com
Lines: 50
Organization: Newshosting.com - Highest quality at a great price! www.newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 5200b8c5.news.newshosting.com
X-Trace: DXC=3n<1SR7mLPRFKHRkCGMmV]X`1N4>^k1LSiF6BbIV4YYR:3QCT_6VF\Q0Tc12>`VPc]Q]gL0o33_A[l5<f432e7?Zhji?E8^U^SY
X-Complaints-To: abuse@newshosting.com
Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.games.everquest:206259


"Lance Berg" <emporer@dejazzd.com> wrote in message
news:3D12ACE2.254EF5BB@dejazzd.com...
> OK, so I've got soloing down pretty well as a bard... but
> I also duo quite often with my friends alt monk. Trouble
> is, monks are great at ditching aggro... but I"m not.
>
> Monk just plain cannot get a mob off me after I've
> charmed it, and has some trouble getting other mobs
> off me.
>
> Is there some song I already have that could be helping
> with this? Or am I going to get one in the future?
>
> Who knew the cleric ability I'd be missing most would
> be Atone? Or even a bloody Root?
>
> LLyric
> 35 bard
>
> Bergh Brelltender
> 59 cleric

Bards do get a song to reduce agro, but not until the mid 50's. You could
try twinking with a symphonic saber, but again I dont think that procs until
50.

Some songs generate more agro than others - its part of a bards growing up
to learn which songs will keep you alive, and which will kill you (depending
on group/party members abilities).

If you get agro, turn off attack for a second. Take a step back, so the monk
is closest to the mob. Do not sing, attack, or even look at the mob funny
until it has switched back to the monk.

I am presuming that you are getting agro after singing one (or more) of the
following - dots, slows, or heal songs. They all get you pretty high on the
hate list. Try to limit your line up to one of each unless you have a
taunter in the group - and even then, just be careful.

Unless you have done a lot of twinking, bards are still pretty fragile at
that age. If all else fails, you always have selos...

Eritaana
Level 56
Half Elven Bard
Vanguard of Norrath
Seventh Hammer

[Ennewi]

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/newsgroups/alt.games.everquest-msg-92150.txt

From -865844158644933655
X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit
X-Google-Thread: fb739,d7e23add2161421b,start
X-Google-Attributes: gidfb739,public
X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-02-28 13:30:37 PST
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.sta nford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.n ews.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.ne.ipsvc.net!cyclone.ne.ip svc.net!24.91.0.34!typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Sean Lowe" <abuse@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: alt.games.everquest
Subject: ignorant bard questions...
Lines: 33
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID: <6ixf8.28309$jj4.2100751@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:28:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.28.85
X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net
X-Trace: typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net 1014931714 24.218.28.85 (Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:28:34 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:28:34 EST
Organization: ATT Broadband
Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.games.everquest:170985

Ok all, I'm now level 35 bard. This is my highest level character, so I
don't know the high end game which is where my questions lie...

First of all, there was a thread awhile back about bards that eventually
trailed off to bards pulling, namely in planes. I've grouped with others
recently who claim to have high level characters and never seen bards pull
at higher levels. True, this game is what you make it out to be, i.e. a
little imagination can go a long way, but I would like a little
clarification on this. To me it seems to be a waste to send the bard for
pulling, as all the casters want their manasong, and bards tend to create
high aggro so I end up pulling a little more than I care to sometimes.

Other question is simple. I'm using instruments a little more now during
battle. I'm not sure how I like that as opposed to weapons. I recently
grouped with a couple of more experienced players that claim I will soon not
be using weapons at all. How true is this? I was in a group last night
with no healer and used a lute (no magic instruments yet) to improve hymn of
restoration and chords of dissonance. I kept all but the tank full, and the
tank nearly full of hp and I do either 30 or 31/tick for damage with CoD.
Add Chains and mana and it seemed a good combination. I was verbally (well,
chat anyways) assaulted by the tank for not having weapons drawn. Screw it,
his problem. But my question is basically how true is this "I won't be
using weapons soon" claim?

Either way is fine by me, but as I'm not a twink and not exactly rich, I
need to upgrade equipment wisely. If I won't be using weapons much, I'm not
dumping tons of PP into them.

TIA for any help,
SEAN...



https://web.archive.org/web/20020220134952/http://pub4.ezboard.com/feqasylumrantsandravesbalancingissues.showMessage? topicID=1640.topic

Akbar BelAkesh
Cyber Pimp
(2/4/02 1:49:33 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter
Re: RANT: Being a bard
My experience with the bards I've seen while playing my alt, they REALLY need to learn to control their aggro better. These bards rush in like idiots playing songs with a pack of mobs there. They get aggro almost immediately and instead of charming or trying to do and CC they TANK.

The healer then has to heal them which aggro's the healer and blows a ton of mana.

If you get a pack of mobs and the bard isn't going to CC, they'd almost be more useful doing straight melee or ( you guessed it ) sitting their butts down and playing c2 song.

For god sakes don't play a AE heal song when you have 3-4 live mobs and the tank is trying to maintain aggro of all of them.

The last bard I had in my group was in CT. We'd pull 3-4 at a time. The bard would move in, get aggro almost immediatly, then we'd all watch his HP drop. The healer would heal him and the mobs would then aggro the healer. Of course the bard doesn't do any mezzing or charming... why? because it generates to much aggro... go figure.

So the bard dies. He run's back from FP, loots his corpse, and asks to rejoin the group. I tell him, "you can rejoin if you don't get hit". He's like ok... so then he rejoins and what's the first thing he does? LOL. All the mobs jump him. I refuse to heal him and he dies. He runs back from FP. First pull back, he aggro's all the mobs and dies again! After that he just gave up and left and the group did great.

Fast forward a month or so. I'm in CT again with a group of myself and a cleric. A bard sends me a tell, "Got room for me and a rogue?". I tell him, "Well yeah, but I'm a bit leary about inviting a bard, ya'll tend to draw to much aggro" ... he says, "lol, so?" ... well.. that was the end of that.

Just like any class, if your fellow ranger/bard/enchanter/clerics etc suck, that will shape peoples experiences. It will make people less willing to let you try things unless they know and trust you.

In otherwords, don't rant about the people telling you to sit back there and play the clarity song. Lets get a rant going about all the boneheaded bards that diminished the trust players might have in you.

Ak

Kinoel
Cyber Pimp
(2/5/02 11:04:48 pm)
Reply Re: RANT: Being a bard
A lot of ppl make bards thinking they can tank cuz they wear Plate. They never even thought about it. Fact is, we dont tank any better than a ranger. Yeah, we get more AC than they do, but they get more HP than Bards do.

When there's a multi pull, it's automatic that anything the tank doesnt have a good aggro on will jump the bard if he's singing. So to all twink bards out there, if you think there's going to be a multi pull, shut your yap. And CC IS part of a bard's life, dont like it? You better look to make another twink, like a monk or a ranger.

Bards are one of the hardest classes to play (Note, I didnt say THE hardest). They can do a shitload of stuff, but it's not always useful to do it, you gotta know your songs VERY well (and rare are the songs that are just better versions of another one) and you get to carry around a load of stuff. For example, I carry around 5 weapons on me at all times, and there are 4 more that I want, the instruments, CC gear (very important till the high 50s).

I see everyone making bard twinks around, and I get to wonder how many will actually make it to their mid 50s :lol
Ryolas Songdivine
54 lvl Master of the Jig
"That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten." --The Wolf (Pulp Fiction)

Kinoel Feuerfaust
55 lvl Glass Cannon
"Guess you broke into the wrong God damn rec room, didn't ya!" --Burt Gummer (Tremors)

Quintessence of Honour
Lanys T'Vyl

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020221165129/http://pub13.ezboard.com/fbrellserilisbrellserilisdiscussion.showMessage?to picID=10439.topic

Daveon Silverstring
Adventurer of Underfoot
Posts: 118
(1/21/02 4:40:57 pm)
Reply
Community Supporter

Re: Question Concerning Bard Melee (Again)
If you're worried about aggro from melee, you probably shouldn't be. You are not likely**, by melee alone, get to the top of the hate list in any group with a monk, warrior, ranger, paladin, or shadow knight in it (if it's just casters, you, and a rogue, you might get to the top if the rogue keeps using that ability to lower aggro). You just won't under normal circumstances (even with a 110pt proc).

Now when you start weaving songs in with your melee, and if you play high hate songs, you might have to worry. But know which songs aggro more than others, and just take a step back if you aggroed too much. Note: manasong is low hate ;)

The only time you really have to worry about hate is in situations when you have adds and your songs are the first things the creatures notice (no one is tanking them), so they come and attack you. So you've got a mez or a charm memed for that, right? Or let the enchanter do her job. Being a plate class, you should have enough AC to deal with a few hits from a couple adds. Just make sure the buffer(s) aren't forgetting to give you AC and HP buffs...

BTW, I'd go for Wristsnapper (lol, snappah) / Flameweaver combo as well. The extra str/sta from the Centi LS isn't going to do squat for a bard...(heh, you might hit for 1 more damage, and you might have 10 more hps, lol)

** I said not likely...mostly because there's been times when I was first to assist, and I hit for full damage on my first couple hits, and had a 110pt proc thrown in there, where I was at the top of the list. But a couple seconds later, the warrior's taunt kicked in...

BTW, all bets are off if you're just pairing up with a hybrid. If the hybrid isn't casting spells to maintain hate, you're going to get it easy with your melee plus songs.

--Daveon Silverstring
--Nocturne Mist


https://web.archive.org/web/20030722120335/http://pub136.ezboard.com/feqenchantersrealmfrm17.showAddReplyScreenFromWeb? topicID=77.topic&index=15

Moya Starsinger
Registered User
Posts: 2
(8/13/02 12:57 pm)
Reply Re: bard vs. chanter
I'm a 60 bard with a 52 enchanter so I have seen both sides. As a bard, I am typically backup to the enchanters on a raid. In that case, I only mez if the enchanter is dead or getting eaten typically. I don't if they are beating on me, the enchanter is the primary CC and I don't interfere unless I am afraid they are going to bite it. In the enchanter role, I love the bards as long as they know what they are doing. I have grouped with one that was doing AE damage and not paying attention, that irked me but I eventually straightened her out......

As a bard, I have seen enchanters that appreciated me pulling Mob01 off of them when they were being resisted and some that harassed me for it. If they harass me, then next time I wait for them to bite it, then I mez the mob before it gets to the cleric.........Typically, if there is an enchanter, I don't do whatever they are. I use the warcry to boost haste over the cap because the enchanter is going to get them to the cap probably and just boost Attack/str and then cantata usually, maybe a ds thrown in sometimes.

Bards are great enhancers and actually as good as another melee in most situations. We can pull, we can backup CC, we are downtime reducers and can help the tanks that are there kill faster. In addition, bards are melee and help kill the mobs faster. Don't be so quick to dismiss a bard as unimportant in a group or less useful than a tank because you can't see all the damage we are doing. Calculate the healing/mana regen from Cantata that stacks with everything, the 25% haste over cap that we can add, the pluses to attack, str, and the damage shield damage and then come back and talk to me. :) I think you will be suprised.

Moya Starsinger
60 bard
Esmeralde Greymist
52 enchanter

valencia
Registered User
Posts: 7
(10/26/02 9:16 am)
Reply bards
I love to have a good bard in my group. when i get high on the agro list many times the bard is the only one that can tick that mob off more than me, with a agro grabbing mezz, or i have a mob beating on me, he charms its no longer hurting me. i think one of my best bard experiences, was when i raided chardok royals. we stormed the kind and us 2 enchanters held the mezzes. when we were OOM, the bards took over and picked up where we left off. perfect team work. as far as enchanters being teritorial i as a fellow enchanter have ran into this. i hate to say it but it drives me nuts to. where if i am on buff debuff nuk duty and she is on mezzes. but i see a cleric geting beat on and the mezzing chanter not getting that mob. i can take the 2.5 seconds to type out a wake up message to her, and hope my stun saves the cleric . or i can take those 2.5 seconds to have my mezz casted and the cleric an d group/raid safe. i have had to do this a few times where the other enchanter with us was either having a bad day or was clueless, but i wont stand there and not use my full ine of abilities when teh time calls for it. my take on it? the mobs were mezzed. no one died. we got what we were after be it safetly, loot or experience. so why are we complaining if someone tossed out a mezz. this isnt a competition. we are much more effective when we work together. i know as the mezzing chanter if i have a few extra mobs and the other chanter wants to grab one for a charm or a mezz or to get it undercontrol faster, i will be happy, not feeling steped on. as long as she lets me know what she is mezzing and she doesnt take it upon herself to do all my mezzes, i dont mind some good old fashioned teamwork

/endrant

[Sonolin]

Thanks for compiling all this evidence. I don't play a bard but wish you luck in getting this fixed.

[Ennewi]

Thanks for compiling all this evidence. I don't play a bard but wish you luck in getting this fixed.


https://i.imgur.com/jxJFs51.gif


https://web.archive.org/web/20040904141659/http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=bardbalance&message.id=1178&page=2

Re: Question for the Devs
Options
Archimede999
Journeyman
Posts: 22
Registered: 07-14-2004

Viewed 78 times
1 rating - 5.0 average


So I guess this thread has slightly degenerated. It's as I explained above, there are two camps. People who agree that there was
a significant change in the aggro generated by our chants, and people who don't think bards should get aggro.

I do not care whether or not people think bards should be able to tank.

All I want to know, is very very simple.

Is it a bug,


or

Is it a nerf.


very very simple. It's been over a month now.

'Stuce
08-31-2004 09:15 AM


Re: Question for the Devs
Options
xanti
Journeyman
Posts: 26
Registered: 04-28-2004

Viewed 29 times


If you go back in Time, about 2 Months, you'll see bards that can hold aggro in Kitegroups. Thats the only thing we want back.
09-02-2004 02:46 AM

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20011230214240/http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/007619.html

Gello
Member
Posts: 232
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 12-17-2001 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gello Click Here to Email Gello Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Mistmoore yard, kurns tower, sarnak fort in LoIO, maybe paludal. Try having the bard sing lullaby during the ae. That's a pretty big taunt and has a side effect of "kinda" being an ae mez. (Tho very resistable) I forget what level bards get the ae slow but that's a decent taunt too and has an obvious use in ae. (It's high 20's I think) You want the plate-wearing bard tanking everything so you're free to heal the bard and the casters should they get aggro. Mage rain spells I understand don't generate a lot of aggro. Wizard will likely be the one you have the most trouble keeping alive. But being proactive and getting the bard to keep aggro can assure some decent pulls.
Don't listen to the people saying a group can't ae without an enchanter. It's a low 20's group for crying out loud. :P Even then, we were ae'ing in the grey before the nerf with just me (60 cleric) and a 57 wizard as the only two in the group who could cast an ae spell. Just test the waters a bit and you'll be fine. My nec has done ae in crystal caverns and cazic without an enchanter before. Granted, an enchanter will let you double the size of the pulls but it's still doable.

When your ae group gets to upper 20's, 29 for wizards, hit cazic courtyard. Great ae spot. You'd think paw would be great too, but the levels there vary too much and the number of casters make it tough to gather all the mobs together before your group has taken a serious beating. Once you get to 34, especially ae'ers, hit crystal caverns.

Candail Delour
Junior Member
Posts: 3
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-20-2001 02:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Candail Delour Click Here to Email Candail Delour Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
can kite them, heh. make sure everyone has sow or whatever and take turns aoe nuking.
or, since you have a bard, can have him/her mez them for a minuit or so to accumulate aggro then kite them with selo while everyone aoe nukes. i leveled my wizard alot doing this with a bard and a mage in lake of ill omen through the 20's. also leveled my bard through the 20's this way.
[This message has been edited by Candail Delour (edited 12-20-2001).]


https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/newsgroups/alt.games.everquest-msg-90795.txt

From -6424775914659296830
X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit
X-Google-Thread: fb739,b519fb245e433c95
X-Google-Attributes: gidfb739,public
X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-02-25 10:59:38 PST
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: morpheus@cent.com (Dream King)
Newsgroups: alt.games.everquest
Subject: Re: 2/25 Patch Message ... fwiw
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:59:45 GMT
Organization: Advanced Concepts
Message-ID: <3c9b88b7.1034146890@news.supernews.com>
Reply-To: morpheus@cent.com
References: <u7kit8a7ir495f@corp.supernews.com> <cEse8.29434$766.755706@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk> <slrna7knno.gkg.sui@black.hole-in-the.net> <Qove8.16365$DS6.520085@news2.telusplanet.net>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com
Lines: 15
Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.games.everquest:169483

"James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote:

> Like it mattered whether he was or not. My guild took him down with a
>bard tanking and three Manaburn wizards, just for kicks. It'll be
>interesting to see if Manaburn ever gets the 100 K limit applied to it or
>not like the Banes have.

If I had to guess I'd say Verant is going to add a flag to certain mobs
about whether or not manaburn affects them or to what degree. Right now
a group of 4-5 wizards can solo a 32k dragon. Even less if they happen
to crit on a manaburn. I wouldn't be surprised to see it have a limit of
something like 2k on certain mobs in the near future. While probably
being fairly balanced againt Luclin ubers or even ToV dragons, it's a
bit overpowering against pre-Velious ubers.


https://web.archive.org/web/20021119222630/http://pub48.ezboard.com/fphoenixarisefrm6.showMessage?topicID=20.topic

Turraslo
NooB Visitor
Posts: 26
(3/1/02 8:36:17 pm)
Reply AOE Groups
I was talking to my friend irl and she said her dad and his guildies were using a strategy that surprisingly I have never heard of. It was called an AOE group and the basic gist of it is as follows....
I) Group- you need 2 enchanters 1 bard 1 cleric (w/ res stick preferably :) ) and 2 wizards. i suppose any type of char that can AOE nuke is good but wizzies=best. (keep in mind thats AOE not AE and there is a difference. AE is what druids and wizzies use in quad kitting AOE is the equivalent of upheaval where it goes out from you...)
II) Starting- You have the bard run around the zone w/ an aggro song on. don't worry about too many you want as many as you can get...the way she described it they had 47 guys one time! (and this is at lvl 59) he pulls basically all the mobs in the zone w/i reason :) and then you have the enchanters AOE stun...when that happens the nukers go to work nuke nuke etc. cleric keeps em healed and if the enchanters do their job no one dies.
III) Finishing- As you can tell this would bring AWESOME exp and i know it works cuz he punched through lvls 58 59 and 60 in a matter of 2 weeks....AND you get more loot this way too so it's also pretty lucrative

i didn't believe this could be done till i saw it w/ my own eyes and it almost made me wanna start a wizard...it certainly however made my jaw drop :)
Turr
(47 guys!!)
Edited by: Turraslo at: 3/1/02 8:36:46 pm


https://web.archive.org/web/20020627034925/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=7381

Mini ring of Fire Reply... By: Galathor,
2 posts
Posted @ Thu, May 9th 9:12 PM 2002 Score: Decent[3.00]
Ok you have 1 person stand on the platform and he is rooted. You then kill the spawns before they reach the platform, we had a bard ae dding to get agro, and you keep on killing until the named pops, during this time the room will pop probably 5 times, it seemed to be on a 6 minute timer, and pop speeds for the skeletons involved in the quest will increase as the battle goes on, the lvls of the pops will also increase. Btw if you knock a pop into the wall it despawns it it didn't seem to interupt the quest so if you don't want to worry about killing just keep knocking them into the wall until the named comes. After 30 min of killing (i was in the exp group and got a blue)the grimling high priest transforms into the named mob a 63. At this point things became chaotic for us we only had 2 groups of 50 to 60's and some pets were out that screwed up mezzes so by the time i got the adds mezzed half the raid was down including the MT and we only had 1 cleric to begin with. So the ST started killing when the mob was at 75%, we had a 60 necro, 59 dru, 60 cleric, 56 war, 56 bard, and i was the 56 ench keeping the adds mezzed. We were able to kill it, the war was dead, but the bard tanked it from 5 percent, and it dropped a 8int 35mana 35hp hat. I know others on the server have killed it and gotten 60 luclin spells so we are going to do it until we get a few. Hope that helps.


https://web.archive.org/web/20031024024813/http://pub94.ezboard.com/ffirionaviefrm1.showAddReplyScreenFromWeb?topicID= 4736.topic&index=20

Enklum
Registered User
Posts: 114
(8/12/03 5:55 am)
Reply
Re: Before I waste AA points...
Concerning aggro, a good drum and 4 stacking DoTs is usualy the solution ;-)

Muse Belladone, "The ManaKitty", Forgotten Nemesis

Larraque Meleagrance
Radical Dreamer
Posts: 1922
(8/12/03 9:03 am)
Reply Re: Before I waste AA points...
Quote:
Concerning aggro, a good drum and 4 stacking DoTs is usualy the solution ;-)


Better off using 3 dots, and largo's absonant binding, if you need to be a bard tank. (Largo's is the level 51 slow movement, AC reduction, snare song)

Not that I ever bard tank.

But I'd think using a Battle Drummer's Main Gauche (or Singing Short Sword, obviously) would be better than all but the best of drums (Thunderous of Karana). The ratio is 1.8 (same as the singing short sword), and it does 8 less damage per 10 seconds per dot than my Draconic Fellowship Drum. And if I'm in hand to hand, the damage done by the main gauche is better than the damage done by my fists by at least 30. And I'm sure it does more aggro.

[Zuranthium]

What exactly are you arguing Bard aggro should be? Do you have any kind of goal in mind, and for each specific type of song?

[Rygar]

What exactly are you arguing Bard aggro should be? Do you have any kind of goal in mind, and for each specific type of song?

For now I think it is fairly obvious to just reverse the cap they put on bard song aggro the last patch or 2 ago, as it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a 2004+ change far out of era.

[long.liam]

For now I think it is fairly obvious to just reverse the cap they put on bard song aggro the last patch or 2 ago, as it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a 2004+ change far out of era.
Do you have any official EQ patch notes as evidence that bard aggro was changed post 2004? Otherwise this entire thread is just a bunch of random nonsense pulled from the dark web that can filed under inconclusive.

[Ennewi]

Do you have any official EQ patch notes as evidence that bard aggro was changed post 2004? Otherwise this entire thread is just a bunch of random nonsense pulled from the dark web that can filed under inconclusive.

Always the same comments from you. It's getting old, as is this thread. Last post from here on out. Anyone else wants to contribute something worth reading, go for it.

[Hideousclaw]

lots of good evidence.

"Let bards be bards" - Hollowlung

[long.liam]

Always the same comments from you. It's getting old, as is this thread. Last post from here on out. Anyone else wants to contribute something worth reading, go for it.

There's no need for the antagonism dude. Just pointing that the "evidence" you posted is insufficient to make the changes you want. Major game mechanics changes like the max cap on hate for bard songs requires substantially accurate evidence before any changes should be made. Anything you posted up to this point has been inconsistent and/or vague and unclear. It might be considered more reliable if someone had actually posted some actually parsing data to prove what the actual hate numbers were at that time and then what they became after a certain point, but you haven't seemed to have found that.

This is the only patch notes I could find that even remotely resembles anything relates to bard mechanics at all during the 2004-2005 time period:

"AUGUST 13, 2004
Patch:
This short update will correct a couple of issues with Bard functionality and resolve a stability problem.

Thanks for your patience."
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20040813.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2004-2.html

"SEPTEMBER 14, 2004
Bard PBAoE spells will no longer damage targets that are moving, however any other spell effects from the PBAoE spell will still be applied to the targets as usual."
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20040914.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2004-2.html

"JANUARY 26, 2005
Bard Chants should once again generate the correct amount of hate."
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20050126.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2005-1.html

Of these 3 that I could find, only the last one says anything about a change in bard song hate. The way it's worded also suggest that It was broken at some point by some patch, most likely a very recent patch relative to this time period.

[long.liam]

There's no need for the antagonism dude. Just pointing that the "evidence" you posted is insufficient to make the changes you want. Major game mechanics changes like the max cap on hate for bard songs requires substantially accurate evidence before any changes should be made. Anything you posted up to this point has been inconsistent and/or vague and unclear. It might be considered more reliable if someone had actually posted some actually parsing data to prove what the actual hate numbers were at that time and then what they became after a certain point, but you haven't seemed to have found that.

This is the only patch notes I could find that even remotely resembles anything relates to bard mechanics at all during the 2004-2005 time period:

"AUGUST 13, 2004
Patch:
This short update will correct a couple of issues with Bard functionality and resolve a stability problem.

Thanks for your patience."
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20040813.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2004-2.html

"SEPTEMBER 14, 2004
Bard PBAoE spells will no longer damage targets that are moving, however any other spell effects from the PBAoE spell will still be applied to the targets as usual."
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20040914.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2004-2.html

"JANUARY 26, 2005
Bard Chants should once again generate the correct amount of hate."
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20050126.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2005-1.html

Of these 3 that I could find, only the last one says anything about a change in bard song hate. The way it's worded also suggest that It was broken at some point by some patch, most likely a very recent patch relative to this time period.

These may also be relevant, but are also within P99's ERA.

"FEBRUARY 21, 2001
A team member has asked that we clarify the changes to the way hate is awarded in healing. The important point that may not have been clear below is that there is a cap on the amount of hate that can be awarded for any particular heal spell. For a target below level 51, no heal spell can generate more than 800 hate, regardless of the number of hitpoints healed. For targets level 51 or above, the cap is higher, but does not approach the total hitpoints of a fully buffed warrior.
"
- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010221b.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html

"MARCH 6, 2001

NPCs that are mesmerized or stunned will now only add a very small amount of hate when they see you cast beneficial spells on their enemies. Prior to this, they would add full hate when they saw you do this. This is why NPCs would always jump the cleric after breaking Mez.
Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much "temporary hate" when a player would sit down in front of them.
The maximum amount of "hate" that an NPC can add when witnessing a heal to targets above level 50 has been decreased substantially.
Hate from heals is also now calculated at a lesser number than the number of hitpoints healed. Previously, healing one hitpoint would cause one point of hate. Now, healing 3 hitpoints will cause 2 points of hate.
"

- http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010306.html
- https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html

[Ennewi]

Last Penultimate post

Perfect opportunity for an inside joke.

Just pointing that the "evidence" you posted is insufficient to make the changes you want.

https://project1999.com/index.php?pageid=about

Server Staff
Management
Nilbog Project Founder & Manager; Content Developer; Goblin
Rogean Project Manager; Server Administrator; Programmer

Development
Haynar Programmer
Alunova Content Developer
Telin Content Developer
Ropethunder Content Developer
long.liam Classic Arbiter

Major game mechanics changes like the max cap on hate for bard songs requires substantially accurate evidence before any changes should be made.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-179088.html

No evidence required for change to the effectiveness of lifetaps.


https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19

Old 09-24-2010, 05:07 PM
Uthgaard Uthgaard is offline
VIP / Contributor

Uthgaard's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,446
Default
Just a reminder:

While a lot of you have been contributing a lot of bugs recently, which is awesome, we have a high standard of accuracy / evidence. While we don't need a congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site is the most helpful thing you can do, other than pointing our attention to the bug itself. It helps us make the change with confidence that we're doing the right thing.

Also, search the forums to see if your issue has already been addressed.


Major game mechanics changes like the max cap on hate for bard songs requires substantially accurate evidence before any changes should be made. Anything you posted up to this point has been inconsistent and/or vague and unclear.

"Historical methodology is the process by which historians gather evidence and formulate ideas about the past. It is the framework through which an account of the past is constructed. Historical researchers often use documentary, biographical, oral history, and archival methods, in addition to many of the methods commonly used across the social sciences. In order to answer the how and why questions of historical analysis and research, historians need to gather all the possible evidence, vet it for bias and authenticity, understand the larger picture presented by these facts, and then make logical conclusions based on what they have learned."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

Bernheim (1889) and Langlois & Seignobos (1898) proposed a seven-step procedure for source criticism in history:[3]

If the sources all agree about an event, historians can consider the event proven.
However, majority does not rule; even if most sources relate events in one way, that version will not prevail unless it passes the test of critical textual analysis.
The source whose account can be confirmed by reference to outside authorities in some of its parts can be trusted in its entirety if it is impossible similarly to confirm the entire text.

When two sources disagree on a particular point, the historian will prefer the source with most "authority"—that is the source created by the expert or by the eyewitness.
Eyewitnesses are, in general, to be preferred especially in circumstances where the ordinary observer could have accurately reported what transpired and, more specifically, when they deal with facts known by most contemporaries.
If two independently created sources agree on a matter, the reliability of each is measurably enhanced.

When two sources disagree and there is no other means of evaluation, then historians take the source which seems to accord best with common sense.


It might be considered more reliable if someone had actually posted some actually parsing data to prove what the actual hate numbers were at that time and then what they became after a certain point, but you haven't seemed to have found that.

A personal sentiment that needs to be supported with evidence, links to posts where a requirement of "substantially accurate evidence/parsing data" has been shown as the official position.

Alright, that about does it for bug reports personally. Good luck to the other posters and thanks to Dolalin for the search engine access; it was game-changing, quite literally.

[long.liam]

Perfect opportunity for an inside joke.



https://project1999.com/index.php?pageid=about





https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-179088.html

No evidence required for change to the effectiveness of lifetaps.


https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19






"Historical methodology is the process by which historians gather evidence and formulate ideas about the past. It is the framework through which an account of the past is constructed. Historical researchers often use documentary, biographical, oral history, and archival methods, in addition to many of the methods commonly used across the social sciences. In order to answer the how and why questions of historical analysis and research, historians need to gather all the possible evidence, vet it for bias and authenticity, understand the larger picture presented by these facts, and then make logical conclusions based on what they have learned."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method






A personal sentiment that needs to be supported with evidence, links to posts where a requirement of "substantially accurate evidence/parsing data" has been shown as the official position.

Alright, that about does it for bug reports personally. Good luck to the other posters and thanks to Dolalin for the search engine access; it was game-changing, quite literally.

A personal sentiment that needs to be supported with evidence, links to posts where a requirement of "substantially accurate evidence/parsing data" has been shown as the official position.

- You literally posted a link that supports this position:
"we have a high standard of accuracy / evidence. While we don't need a congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site"

"Historical methodology is the process by which historians gather evidence and formulate ideas about the past. It is the framework through which an account of the past is constructed. Historical researchers often use documentary, biographical, oral history, and archival methods, in addition to many of the methods commonly used across the social sciences. In order to answer the how and why questions of historical analysis and research, historians need to gather all the possible evidence, vet it for bias and authenticity, understand the larger picture presented by these facts, and then make logical conclusions based on what they have learned."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

This is interesting information, but not really helpful. We are not historians. Just a bunch of amateur, random, weirdos trying figure out how the game worked 20+ years ago. In some cases It's simply not possible to figure those things out. The information may not exist in many cases. Trying to reverse engineer game mechanics from random posts from 20+ years ago is in exercise in futility. Even If a Rogean and Nilbog were to accept that you were right, the information posted so far hasn't really been that helpful for determining how bard aggro should work back in 1999. No definitive numbers for the hate caps on any bard songs, procs, etc. Just bunch of weirdos saying "their songs are a good taunt". Interesting but not helpful. What cap should be there be. Does it get higher with level? Does it matter which songs? Does it matter whether they are charming, healing? what numbers should it all be?

"No evidence required for change to the effectiveness of lifetaps."
- I don't really know enough about this to comment. In some cases changes are made , that may or may not be classic, to combat mass player use of exploits that were relatively unknown back when the game first released. This might be one of those cases. Either way I'm not really concerned with whether or not the dev's actually make a change only if the standards of evidence are actually upheld by the Community.

[long.liam]

A personal sentiment that needs to be supported with evidence, links to posts where a requirement of "substantially accurate evidence/parsing data" has been shown as the official position.

- You literally posted a link that supports this position:
"we have a high standard of accuracy / evidence. While we don't need a congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site"

"Historical methodology is the process by which historians gather evidence and formulate ideas about the past. It is the framework through which an account of the past is constructed. Historical researchers often use documentary, biographical, oral history, and archival methods, in addition to many of the methods commonly used across the social sciences. In order to answer the how and why questions of historical analysis and research, historians need to gather all the possible evidence, vet it for bias and authenticity, understand the larger picture presented by these facts, and then make logical conclusions based on what they have learned."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

This is interesting information, but not really helpful. We are not historians. Just a bunch of amateur, random, weirdos trying figure out how the game worked 20+ years ago. In some cases It's simply not possible to figure those things out. The information may not exist in many cases. Trying to reverse engineer game mechanics from random posts from 20+ years ago is in exercise in futility. Even If a Rogean and Nilbog were to accept that you were right, the information posted so far hasn't really been that helpful for determining how bard aggro should work back in 1999. No definitive numbers for the hate caps on any bard songs, procs, etc. Just bunch of weirdos saying "their songs are a good taunt". Interesting but not helpful. What cap should be there be. Does it get higher with level? Does it matter which songs? Does it matter whether they are charming, healing? what numbers should it all be?

"No evidence required for change to the effectiveness of lifetaps."
- I don't really know enough about this to comment. In some cases changes are made , that may or may not be classic, to combat mass player use of exploits that were relatively unknown back when the game first released. This might be one of those cases. Either way I'm not really concerned with whether or not the dev's actually make a change only if the standards of evidence are actually upheld by the Community.

Also, I would like to point out that you didn't really follow the directions on this one:
"congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site""
- 30 posts from randos is unnecessary and creates a huge amount clutter for dev's to sift through. One Definitive post from an official source would have been enough.

[FatMice]

So when are bards getting the ability to agro mobs again?

[Rygar]

If i'm not mistaken, I believe P99 implemented agro based on Torven's live testing years back which was really sophisticated. For those that dont know there is a literal hate meter which displays the point value of hate specific songs / procs / abilities / spells generate, he basically unpacked how actual agro values work in EQ.

I've really changed my mind around current live testing, lots of things in most old zones are untouched.

This seems to be a clear exception though, where current live agro values / mechanics were modified somewhere in 2004. I would argue it's more classic to revert the change or find a hybrid solution. Clearly SKs and Bards were agro machines during classic (as Ennewi repeatedly demonstrates in the mountain of evidence).

Please stop trolling the thread, it is ban worthy to do so.

[Moodie]

So when are bards getting the ability to agro mobs again?

[astuce999]

Ah yes, the July 14th, 2004 stealth bard aggro nerf patch. I was angry back then. And looking back on the quoted posts, a bit entitled, not to say asshole-ish.

cheers,

'Stuce

[Pindrought]

Is this ever going to be fixed?

[Duncanator583]

Thanks for gathering all this evidence Enn! Makes me sad this agro nerf ever happened

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20001109205400/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/023416.html

Grimstaff
Station Member posted 10-15-2000 06:09 PM
I hate bumps, if you can't think of anything significant to move the dialog along, then that thread is better off dying and being buried in the mass of other messages.
That said, I really do wish Verant would take a good look WITH AN ACTUAL BARD CHARACTER at how incredibly poorly lullaby works. Not past level 30, but when you get it and immediately after. This thing isn't so much resisted then, although it usually won't work on some of the targets, it just holds so poorly that you will end up with 25-30% of the monsters at random beating on you. The worst part is that its not usually the same guy, its a mix of them, first is joe, than bob, then al, then bob again, then joe.... good luck for the poor tanks to taunt off you then.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000520071631/http://eq.castersrealm.com/forums/Forum9/HTML/000831.html

Midi
unregistered posted 03-01-2000 12:17 PM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Usualy the ones I group with play manasong (stacks with ours) non-stop. Other useful songs will be healing post fight to help the healers, or a restance song of the appropriate type, the DD bellow, or charm release something for taunt(you know how well that works =).
An exmaple from last, on sol b bats cave:
me (49, then 48, then 49 enc)
45 bard
44 clr
45 war

45 pal later a 45 rog
41 nec later a 43 dru

Basically our speed spell is way faster the the bard song so I was casting STLW. Even clerity is better too I believe. With the mana song you get back the huge mana to cast this 2x. On bard I cast augment. Becuase of the incredible speed bonus of STLW and the near constant fighting, sometimes the bard would sing some kind of +sta song or the cleric or druid castd their energy song.

Esentially the bard was giving us every drop of mana he could. For 2-3 hours we were pulling bats and lava beetles almost non-stop after the break in. With clarity and the manasong we had enough mana to keep up with these pulls. The poor cleric was overworked having med for every last drop of mana for heas he could get. We got 2 bubbles of exp in those 2-3 hours. It was the best exp rate gain I have had in several levels, and it was all due to the massive non-stop pulls. Without clarity and manasong there was no way we got have managed that.

Other good uses would be KK for air. God type raid for twistong resistance songs and limited the damage done to you.

Bards and enchanters can work very well together.


https://web.archive.org/web/20001213171700/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/010995-2.html

quantum9
Station Member posted 09-05-2000 06:19 PM
What i find annoying to no end is the fact that we are trying to accomplish something that will put bards back in balance with all the other classes... sure we are the jacks of all trades and we do everything but worse than the original... BUT this mez thingy... we cant do a lick of... all this is is taunting the mobs off the other charachters and if there is no healer type(cleric druid shaman) the bard is screwed... then the party is next... sure we heal... but ist a regen type heal and takes long... sure we STR buff... but we cant do nothing else... sure we snare... but we gotta sing it over and over... sure we mez.... wait a sec no we dont... we taunt crap... oh well... guess abashi in his great wisdom will once again ignore a major problem in favor of answering posts on the treeweave icon... >


https://web.archive.org/web/20001213180100/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/010995-3.html

Methesula
Station Member posted 09-06-2000 10:31 AM
The bard mez song does have one nice taunt though.
We somtimes have a bard play this if something is whacking on one of our casters ... Bam instant aggro in the Bard. Bards can usually take quite a better ass whooping than a caster can... hehe


https://web.archive.org/web/20001209030300/http://maximumeq.com/forum/UltraBoard.cgi?Action=ShowPost&Board=bards&Post=173&Idle=30&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=0&Session=

New Message RE:Why are Bards so cool? (modified 0 times) Irony
Profile | Email
Hehe, reading the thread I notice that there are way too many people who don't exactly know what they're talking about.
Let's face it, bards are masters at nothing except versatility. While we can't heal as good as clerics, we heal better than warriors. While we can't buff as good as shamans, we buff much better than wizards. While we can't melee as good as monks, we melee much better than magicians. While we can't mez as good as chanters, we mez much better than SKs, while others have to med, we can continue kiting/charming/mezzing/healing/buffing and such. If you have a bard in your group, there will hardly be any situation that you can't handle. Bards have quite a few skills that most other classes lack: Safe Fall (absolutely necessary to avoid being killed by falling at high speed), Instill doubt (kinda gimmick, not too helpful but looks nice), Pick Lock (yes, we can pick some locks). You're in a dungeon and need to evac but the mobs keep hitting the dr00id/wizzy? AE fear will buy them the time necessary to cast (keep that memorized all the time, it's a lifesaver). Group invis, group water breathing, group protection (all resists can be addressed), group healing, group travel speed, group haste (30% haste at lvl 50 which is 10% more than the FBSS) and all that at *NO* mana cost. Not to mention the always-welcome chorus of clarity (and the upgrade song). BTW, the clarity songs (version one and two) beat the enchanter spells by a point or two. Oh, very handy: Group divine aura at level 60 (or 59?).
Yes, we can wield 2 weapons but since we have considerably low hp and are relatively weak, our main weapons are our instruments (try twisting the 2 chant songs (fire and cold) and fufil's with a drum on a mob, I guarantee you can taunt it off 3 warriors. Oh yes, we can snare, we have group damage shields...
You get the point: While we're not best at anything, we can do everything a bit. I have a 48 necro and a 47 bard (and 6 other chars below lvl 30). And the most noticeable difference between them all is: No class is as much fun to play as the bard.
I just wished, people knew more about bards. When I get into a group and tell them how bards handle things, they are usually amazed ('I didn't know bards could do THAT' or 'Weee...nifty song, great idea to twist it with that other song').
Just my 2cp....
Irony Truenote
Bard of (still) 47 songs on Innoruuk

Aug 31, 2000 05:14:50 A.M.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010512152859/http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/000693.html

Faeril_Tujim
Station Member posted 05-06-2001 02:47 PM
Generally a PB group need to be set up with a pocket of death already laid out. The puller (Bards are perfect) rounds up the victims is as large of a bunch as possible and tries to get them bunched up. He then runs them right into the pocket while using an AoE 'kill the Bard' taunting spell. When the pack arrives, the Enchanters chain color and the Druids, Wizards and Clerics start chain casting (using two spells typically) PB stuff. If the timing is good, the critters aren't standing long. Often a missed color will have something up and hitting but the Bard's taunt level is often high enough to keep it interested in killing him and not the casters.
At least, that is the theory. I've only played with it once and we never quite got it down to a science. We were missing the Bard (which I hear helps a lot) and just seemed to be spending too much time rounding them up and not enough time bringing them down. It is still a wonderful concept though.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020324151828/http://pub7.ezboard.com/faegiswolvesfrm14.showMessage?topicID=40.topic

Lyri Prayerblade
Wolf
Posts: 16
(10/28/01 1:08:12 pm)
Reply Mid 20's group: Something to ponder
Hey, folks. I'm rethinking my role in our motley group. Up until level 25, I was a reasonable tank-substitute. This is less true as time goes on.

When we have a monk, shadowknight and rogue, I'm not sure I should be in there swinging my claws at mobs, especially when we have an enchanter who hastes tanks far more effectively than I.

The alternative would be that I twist something like this:

1) 24 str/dex 6ac buff (no brainer with rogue in group)
+
2a) 18% slow -5 ac AE debuff (doesn't break mez) or
2b) 18% slow single target snare
+
3a) 10 hp x3 tick healing (huge taunt factor) or
3b) 19 x3 DoT -13 AC debuff area effect does break mez
3c) 13 pt bellow
3d) 4 damage shield 3 ac party buff

What would we be losing? My damage. I dual wield (off weapon is not high damage) but don't double attack. I suspect my DoT song will do almost as much damage as I do at this point. Currently, I'm twisting:

1) 10% haste 17str buff (haste doesn't add to enchanter haste)
2) same as above
3) 10 x 3 DoT -7 AC debuff AE

I think the primary difference is that big str/dex/ac buff. It requires an instrument, so pretty much precludes me tanking when I use it.

What's the verdict? Is it time for me to stop playing tank and become the blueberry buff/debuff machine?


Cheers,
Harmonae


https://web.archive.org/web/20010505212154/http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/000032.html

a_disgruntled_Orc03
Station Member posted 04-23-2001 11:19 PM
Hmmmm. Bard vs. Cleric. My friend, you have unwittingly opened a whole new can of Fishing Grubs.
CLERICS (my main is a Cleric): Most of the time, you sit and med, and when necessary, pop up and heal. That's your life as a Cleric in a nutshell. However, whenever your group gets into a bad fight, you become the hero of the day. There is no better feeling than watching the last mob of a nasty pull die, with everyone at less than 2 bubs health, and you almost OOM, and knowing that YOU saved them from death. But I digress. Clerics have a simple job, but mastering that job isn't easy.

BARDS: Don't know much about bards. I see a lot of twinked bards in their shiny blue armor. I see a lot of tanking bards (mixed results here). Bards have to be able to twist songs (lol Lach) and deal with the immense mob-hate from healing and buffing your party and damaging them (the mobs) at the same time.

If I had to call from my limited experience, I'd say that Clerics are easier. You never have any doubt of what you should be doing, and you can always get into pickup groups, even at high levels. Of course, I've only been a Cleric for 15 levels, so maybe I'm not the one to ask

Asfaloth
Cleric of Brell
<Soul Guardians>
Xegony


Fyreheart
Station Member posted 04-24-2001 10:30 AM
The hardest thing about twisting is to learn the timing of when the songs take affect. That can be almost impossible to do while grouped because there are so very many things going on. The best thing that you can do to learn to twist is to practice constantly. You can try soloing a bit if you wish, learning twisting as you go. Or, you can twist non-harmful songs anywhere and everywhere. Learn the timing of when the song ends/takes affect. Once you have it the timing down solo (fighting or not), THEN try doing it with a group. It's MUCH harder to do in a group because you also need to learn to manage aggro as well as balance the given situation with the best song etc. There is just SO MUCH to do that learning twisting from scratch in a group situation would be HARD. Basically, there will be times in a group when you must stop attacking AND playing any songs to try to get the mob to shift attention to the group tank. There will be times when only one song is called for. Once get the healing song and can play the lute or mandolin, always take out the lute to heal during down time. Train your healers to med while you play.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010422162454/http://www.din.or.jp/~cai/eq/tips/w_rep0102.html

2001/02/13
● Evade Bug Fix……That's mean Nerf =P ( EQCasters ) It seems that
　Evade has a Bug Fix . There was some talk about it a while ago, but it seems that the effect of Evade is going down. Does it mean that it's more difficult for mobs' hate to move around in Evade now (I'm not a Rog, so I don't know)? Currently, it is possible to create a state where it is difficult to be hit reliably by BS → Evade, but the purpose is to reduce Rog's outstanding Melee ability by making it impossible to hit BS without properly assessing the transition of Hate. I guess.
　Bard also has an Evade Song, but when Hate gets high, you have to use it two or three times to get rid of it, so I wonder if Evade itself will be similar.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010222184133/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000665-4.html

Digory
Station Member posted 02-20-2001 06:51 AM
I'm tired of the people who want bards to be and enchanter/warrior. That sounds boring to me. I like the tremendous flexibility I have as a bard. I get to adjust to both group classes and skills.
I heard Absor say defense would be improved. I don't particularly need much better melee skills. There is always someone to dish the damage, but bards take damage like little kids. Bards playing instruments or meleeing could use some defensive enhancements. Start dodge and parry earlier and give them much higher caps. It's not that hard to parry with an instrument. I have been a fencer and you'd be surprised how simple a weapon can be used to block any kind of blow. And many of our songs are major taunts.